Author Topic: What you need to get a Tim Horton's  (Read 2015 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2018, 07:11:30 am »
First of all, you only asked the questions 4 hours before.
You did not flag my post as "dumb" instead of providing a reasonable response.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2018, 09:39:09 am »
I don't pay attention to those dumb flags.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2018, 09:39:27 am »
No one has asked that question so your response is kind of silly. To answer: Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Italy and Switzerland all have no minimum wage but are not low wage hell. There is no academic justification for minimum wages when there are social support systems in place and immigration is kept under control. One of the problems in Canada is we are too quick to let people in when businesses scream labour shortages. While these cries are justified when it comes to some specialized skill sets they are more often a reflection of the fact that businesses are not willing to raise their wages to attract workers. Getting rid of the minimum wage *and* restricting immigration would send a clear messages to businesses that if they want people they have to pay a wage that attracts workers. This would lead to a more dynamic market that would benefit workers in the long run.
Are you also going to advocate for Scandinavian social systems, since you're holding them up as an example? You think their wage laws are in isolation of everythign else?

Offline kimmy

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2018, 10:05:39 am »
What I find interesting is none of the 'minimum wage causes no harm' advocates are willing to answer my question: If $15 is fine why not $100?

I think it is pretty obvious the reason is they don't answer is they don't want to acknowledge the basic premise that raising minimum wages does cause harm and the only thing we can really discuss is if there are situations where the harm caused is small enough that we can raise it despite the  harms. For my part, I would agree that raising the wages when the economy is growing and the amount is at least comparable to the rate of inflation is likely fine. Any higher than that and you asking for trouble - especially when the next recession hits. There are likely other criteria such as the relationship between the median wage and the minimum wage which need to be considered as well.

Unfortunately, we can't get to a discussion about the evaluating the circumstances where a minimum wage hike is likely OK because the minimum wage advocates are too ideological to accept what should be an obvious point: "increasing minimum wages causes harm'.

I think everybody understands that the money doesn't come out of thin air and that it has to come from somewhere.   Maybe it's from the pockets of the business operator, or maybe it's from the pockets of the customers, or maybe some of both.

What's the yardstick for "harm" though?  Is "harm" the point where the employer decides not to hire an additional staff member?  Is it the point at which the employer decides his margins have become too thin and decides to just close the business?

I avoid Tim's and McDonald's and the like as much as possible, but my observation has been that they're already using the bare minimum number of employees. I don't think the notion of hiring additional crew ever crosses their mind.  It's not like there's a lot of fat that they can trim that hasn't already been trimmed.  As for their margins, I think that while some franchises might be teetering on the brink, many are probably doing quite well. There must be some reason why people keep opening more of these wretched things.   If the change in minimum wage pushes some of the less profitable franchises over the brink... is that really such a bad thing?


Your premise that the expense of the paying minimum wages workers more is too small to affect the inflation rate is reasonable but will you accept the corollary that the boost to GDP from all those minimum wage workers spending their extra wages is also too small to be noticeable?

Not necessarily.  I agree with the premise that no new wealth is being created. Raising the minimum wage is, essentially, a redistribution of existing wealth-- the raise doesn't come from thin air, it comes from the pockets of the franchise operator and/or customers who pay higher prices.

But putting more money in the pockets of people who have the highest propensity to spend isn't a bad economic move. It's economic stimulus. It's a staple of typical conservative economic thought, actually.  If the franchise operator has that $10 a day, most of that money is probably going into some kind of investment strategy.  If the employee has that money, it's getting spent. The working poor spend everything they earn just to meet their daily needs. The raise they're getting is going straight back into the economy.

Another point to consider: the only reason the effect on inflation is small is because most of the labour intensive goods we buy come from places with much lower wages and that higher minimum wages will simply encourage the import of more goods from cheaper locales.

So?   Are there any minimum-wage manufacturing jobs left here to save?


I agree that TFWs for minimum wage retail jobs should be banned. If they need workers raise wages. It is interesting that most people think Henry Ford raised wages so 'his employees could buy his cars' but that is not true. Ford raised wages because he had to compete for labour and wanted to reduce employee turnover.

I hear "free market" people complaining that the government shouldn't meddle in the labor market by setting a minimum wage, but I never hear "free market" people complaining that the government is already meddling in the labor market by pursuing policies that put a downward pressure on wages.  We get these lobby groups like Restaurants Canada continually pleading to the government for help because "we can't find enough workers", but that statement should always be appended with "...at the wages we're willing to pay."


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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2018, 10:32:45 am »
The pub I have been walking over to since well before the smoking ban is doing as thriving a business as it ever did. The smokers are still there but they are happy to go outside for a puff as are the majority of people who don't smoke and don't want to be forced to suck up someone else's smoke. Most people don't smoke any more so it's simply a bit of majority rule.

I don't smoke. I have never smoked. But I'm not going to fall for that bullshit about 'they're happy to go outside for a puff". Bars and taverns HAVE closed down. One of the ones near where I used to work used to be crowded as hell, but lost a lot of customers after the ban. It tried to make up for it by putting in a nice patio but then the government shut those down too. I'm not sure if it's still open. It was like a ghost town the last time I was there a couple of years back.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2018, 10:47:24 am »
I posted the list of items in the "consumer goods basket" they use to calculate the rate of inflation. And the bulk of this stuff is completely unaffected by the minimum wage.

You're simply wrong. The cost of employment is a major factor in everything. It's why so much manufacturing has been moved to Mexico or China or low wage states in the US. It's why call centres have moved to India. You can suggest the impact won't be high, but it doesn't have to be to impact jobs. There are over 18 million people employed in Canada. If employers cut back by one half of one percent that's still 90,000 jobs lost. Minimum wage rises of this level don't just impact those who make minimum wages. As I pointed out earlier all the people who used to make 3 bucks over minimum wage because they were more skilled are now going to have to have big pay increases. And so on up the ladder. If the kid behind the cashier was making 11.40 and their supervisor was making 14, well, you can't leave the supervisor at 14, now can you?

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Good. Let 'em. There's something fundamentally **** about an industry which is on the one hand always crying that it can't get enough workers but on the other hand always crying that it can't afford to raise wages to attract anybody to work there. 

You may recall I expressed those exact sentiments about the need to bring in TFWs to work at fast food restaurants when that was under discussion. TFWs, and, for that matter, much of immigration, seems to be purpose designed by government to thwart the market and keep wages low for low skilled workers. I'm all for halting this and letting wages for shitty jobs rise as the supply of workers for those jobs falls. And if that means fewer fast food restaurants I'm okay with that.

But drastically increasing the minimum wage doesn't just impact fast food restaurants. It impacts virtually everything. And unlike the natural rise or fall of wages due to demand for those workers, this is entirely artificial and driven by political expediency.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2018, 10:49:46 am »
Are you also going to advocate for Scandinavian social systems, since you're holding them up as an example? You think their wage laws are in isolation of everythign else?

The Scandinavian countries are finding themselves hard-pressed to maintain those social systems and are having to cut back - largely because they let in too many people with low skills.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2018, 10:53:15 am »
What I find interesting is none of 'price increases hurt businesses' advocates are willing to answer my question:  If $15 is too much, why $11?  Why not scrap minimum wage all together and let business owners find the cheapest labour and maximize profits as much as economically possible?

I wouldn't mind trying it, as long as we scrap immigration and TFWs. The market will determine at what price people are willing to take jobs, especially unpleasant ones. Employers were already having trouble finding employees at $11.40. They'd have a damn sight harder time finding them at $10 or $9.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline JMT

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2018, 10:55:37 am »
The Scandinavian countries are finding themselves hard-pressed to maintain those social systems and are having to cut back - largely because they let in too many people with low skills.

Citation

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2018, 11:01:48 am »
Not necessarily.  I agree with the premise that no new wealth is being created. Raising the minimum wage is, essentially, a redistribution of existing wealth-- the raise doesn't come from thin air, it comes from the pockets of the franchise operator and/or customers who pay higher prices.

But where is the fairness in that? Why should government be in the business of redistributing wealth in the first place? Why should we be taking money away from people who, through their own efforts, have succeeded economically, and giving it to people who, through their own lack of efforts, have not? Note, I am not talking about people with disabilities for which I wholeheartedly agree society owes a standard of care. I am also not talking about letting people starve or die in the streets. That's not what this raise is about.

Joe studies hard, gets great grades, borrows money, gets into university, works his ass off, gets a good job.
Paul goes out back and smokes weed with his pals, drops out of school, does more drugs, plays video games, gets a job at Tim Hortons.

Is it really so unfair that Joe makes more money than Paul? And again, note, I realize this is a cliche, and that all circumstances are not like that, but it also is true in many cases. People's lack of economic success is often attributable to poor choices made earlier in life and poor choices made now. How many of those poor people are busily working on college courses through correspondence or the internet in hopes of improving their skill set, vs how many are playing video games and watching TV every evening?

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I hear "free market" people complaining that the government shouldn't meddle in the labor market by setting a minimum wage, but I never hear "free market" people complaining that the government is already meddling in the labor market by pursuing policies that put a downward pressure on wages.

Meh, if you've been reading my posts over the years you've certainly seen me complaining about that. And pretty strongly.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 11:03:35 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum


Offline JMT

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2018, 11:34:36 am »
Thanks (although leaving out Sputnik would probably have strengthened your case).

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2018, 04:56:54 pm »
But where is the fairness in that? Why should government be in the business of redistributing wealth in the first place?

Yes, that's what it comes down to and that's a values argument not an economic one.

If you want government to get out of redistributing wealth, then you are probably ready for a libertarian society.

Of course, government puts a great deal of focus on doing things that help business too, so to be fair we should just stop enforcing patents, copyrights, helping out with private contracts....

Government sets up the rules of the economic game so that they help people, and yes that includes redistributing wealth, progressive taxation and so on.  That system works.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #133 on: January 15, 2018, 05:00:32 pm »
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I think it is pretty obvious the reason is they don't answer is they don't want to acknowledge the basic premise that raising minimum wages does cause harm and the only thing we can really discuss is if there are situations where the harm caused is small enough that we can raise it despite the  harms. 

Unfortunately, we can't get to a discussion about the evaluating the circumstances where a minimum wage hike is likely OK because the minimum wage advocates are too ideological to accept what should be an obvious point: "increasing minimum wages causes harm'.

If you use the term 'harm' you are taking a moral stance rather than talking about trade-offs costs/benefits etc.

You can say truthfully that pollution legislation causes economic harm, but there is a payoff also.

And ideological people say "this is bad but you can't measure the result to confirm that, so just accept that it is".

------

But - gasp - what will happen if the sky doesn't fall ?  If the extra money goes back into spending instead of wherever the profits would go, ie. Brazil or a franchise owner's offshore account.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2018, 09:46:06 am »
Yes, that's what it comes down to and that's a values argument not an economic one.

If you want government to get out of redistributing wealth, then you are probably ready for a libertarian society.

I am not wholy supportive of any ideology. Certain aspects of Libertarian thinking certainly appeal to me, but I do believe in a more humane government which works together for the greater good - within limits.

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Of course, government puts a great deal of focus on doing things that help business too, so to be fair we should just stop enforcing patents, copyrights, helping out with private contracts....

Poor argument. Such things are necessary for the functioning of an economy and encouraging innovation and creativity. You would have done better to address all the government subsidies - most of which, in my opinion, should be cut.

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Government sets up the rules of the economic game so that they help people, and yes that includes redistributing wealth, progressive taxation and so on.  That system works.

As I pointed out in another argument, any virtue taken to extremes becomes a vice (Aristotle)  and while I completely agree we do not want a society in which people are starving or freezing or dying of curable diseases due to poverty, I disagree that we need to take money from other people in order that they have cell phones, big screen TVs and and gameboys. Taxation is, after all, at heart, forced thievery, in a way. You are forcing people to give up money they worked hard for (in most cases), and I think giving it to others who didn't is fundamentally unjust.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 09:48:18 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum