Author Topic: What you need to get a Tim Horton's  (Read 2043 times)

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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2018, 06:42:52 pm »
For posting a picture without any text or explanation.

It's okay, I forgave you a long time ago.

Of course, yours was a picture of text.  Loophole.

MH is not a mod here...

And if you can’t see the relevance of the note in the picture to the topic, then you have comprehension issues. 
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guest7

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2018, 06:51:36 pm »
MH is not a mod here...

And if you can’t see the relevance of the note in the picture to the topic, then you have comprehension issues.

Yeah, I suppose you're right.  It's a good job you're around to keep me focused.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2018, 06:53:11 pm »
Uh.... you KNOW that I don't have anything personal against posting pictures right ?

It's not like I see a painting on the wall and go 'Grrrrrr'. 

I have some memory of the 'no images' rule at MLW but no memory of warning any individual about it...
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guest7

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2018, 06:55:08 pm »
Uh.... you KNOW that I don't have anything personal against posting pictures right ?

It's not like I see a painting on the wall and go 'Grrrrrr'. 

I have some memory of the 'no images' rule at MLW but no memory of warning any individual about it...

Okay, serious posts only.  No small talk.  Got it!

BTW, you're needed on the "other site".  You need to learn Klingon...

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2018, 07:15:34 pm »
This:

"Are you allowed to do that here?  I seem to remember you suspending me for that on the "other place"."

...isn't even 'dry humour'.  This is vague and inscrutable.  Somebody reading it thinks

'Is he serious ?'
'Is it a dig ?'

You would have to add something to signal "hey... I am joking here".

Next, this:

"BTW, you're needed on the "other site".  You need to learn Klingon..."

The first sentence seems to be saying something about MLW.  Then the second sentence.... don't get it...

guest7

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2018, 07:18:10 pm »
This:

"Are you allowed to do that here?  I seem to remember you suspending me for that on the "other place"."

...isn't even 'dry humour'.  This is vague and inscrutable.  Somebody reading it thinks

'Is he serious ?'
'Is it a dig ?'

You would have to add something to signal "hey... I am joking here".

Next, this:

"BTW, you're needed on the "other site".  You need to learn Klingon..."

The first sentence seems to be saying something about MLW.  Then the second sentence.... don't get it...

Could be I've been operating under some wild misapprehension about your identity.  Please disregard.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2018, 07:35:52 pm »
Still inscrutable.

Just say what you are hinting at.  I am not going to cry.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2018, 07:37:09 pm »
Ahhhhhh....

Ok, now I see.  It's not a joke it's a riddle.

guest7

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2018, 07:55:57 pm »
Still inscrutable.

Just say what you are hinting at.  I am not going to cry.

I was crying.  But I'm okay now.
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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #114 on: January 14, 2018, 10:23:06 pm »
What I find interesting is none of the 'minimum wage causes no harm' advocates are willing to answer my question: If $15 is fine why not $100?

I think it is pretty obvious the reason is they don't answer is they don't want to acknowledge the basic premise that raising minimum wages does cause harm and the only thing we can really discuss is if there are situations where the harm caused is small enough that we can raise it despite the  harms. For my part, I would agree that raising the wages when the economy is growing and the amount is at least comparable to the rate of inflation is likely fine. Any higher than that and you asking for trouble - especially when the next recession hits. There are likely other criteria such as the relationship between the median wage and the minimum wage which need to be considered as well.

Unfortunately, we can't get to a discussion about the evaluating the circumstances where a minimum wage hike is likely OK because the minimum wage advocates are too ideological to accept what should be an obvious point: "increasing minimum wages causes harm'.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 10:28:13 pm by TimG »

Offline kimmy

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #115 on: January 14, 2018, 11:04:17 pm »
The average profit margin for the restaurant and retail trade in Canada is just 3.4%. Your costs don't have to rise very high before you're forced to raise prices.

I posted the list of items in the "consumer goods basket" they use to calculate the rate of inflation. And the bulk of this stuff is completely unaffected by the minimum wage.
Quote
    FOOD AND BEVERAGES (breakfast cereal, milk, coffee, chicken, wine, full service meals, snacks)
    HOUSING (rent of primary residence, owners' equivalent rent, fuel oil, bedroom furniture)
    APPAREL (men's shirts and sweaters, women's dresses, jewelry)
    TRANSPORTATION (new vehicles, airline fares, gasoline, motor vehicle insurance)
    MEDICAL CARE (prescription drugs and medical supplies, physicians' services, eyeglasses and eye care, hospital services)
    RECREATION (televisions, toys, pets and pet products, sports equipment, admissions);
    EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATION (college tuition, postage, telephone services, computer software and accessories);
    OTHER GOODS AND SERVICES (tobacco and smoking products, haircuts and other personal services, funeral expenses).

Housing, transportation, medical, education and communication are all completely unaffected by the minimum wage. (what about the gas station cashier?  The cashier's share of the 123.9 cents per liter is so tiny it's not worth measuring. Most of the 123.9 cents per liter is going to the gasoline distributor or to the tax man. The station operator's share is tiny, and the cashier's portion of that is tinier still. Gas stations don't make much money from gas. They're desperately hoping you'll buy a $2 chocolate bar or a $4 bag of chips while you're stopped for gas, because that's where they actually make a decent margin.)

Food and clothing are two areas where the minimum wage might cause cost increases.  Quite a few people work in a grocery store, and probably many of them are pretty close to the minimum wage. If I go down to my local grocery store and spend $100 on food, what portion goes to the food producers and distributors, what portion goes to the owner's non-labor expenses (rent, property tax, electricity, etc) and what portion actually goes to the workers?  Hypothetically, if the workers' share is $5, and the owner raises the prices to pay for the increase in wages, then my $100 groceries will cost $101.40 next time.  I can live with it.

As for apparel, I suspect it's a higher-margin industry and a less directly competitive industry. I think they'll have a lot more flexibility as to how to figure out how to defray the expense of higher wages.

As well, apparel is a much smaller chunk of a typical consumer's monthly spending, so any increases in costs are much less important to most consumers than changes in the price of food.

For the typical household, housing is the biggest expense by a fair margin, followed by food, communications, and transportation in some order. Of those, only food is one where a raise to minimum wage might be cause for concern. And I think the impact on your grocery tab is probably pretty modest.


These people don't owe you a job, let alone a well-paid job. Why is it their responsibility that you don't have the skills to command higher wages? They should just willingly fork over a substantial portion of their profits to you? They can just close the place down and use their money on the stock market.

Good. Let 'em. There's something fundamentally **** about an industry which is on the one hand always crying that it can't get enough workers but on the other hand always crying that it can't afford to raise wages to attract anybody to work there. 

We don't need a **** Tim Horton's on every corner. Let these would-be franchise operators take their capital and do something more useful with it. Let the displaced workers go work at other establishments that are relying on TFWs to fill vacancies.

Has it occurred to you that getting people to work in crappy low-skill restaurant jobs might be one of the reasons our government is convinced that we have to increase immigration every year?


 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City
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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #116 on: January 14, 2018, 11:57:46 pm »
I posted the list of items in the "consumer goods basket" they use to calculate the rate of inflation. And the bulk of this stuff is completely unaffected by the minimum wage.
Your premise that the expense of the paying minimum wages workers more is too small to affect the inflation rate is reasonable but will you accept the corollary that the boost to GDP from all those minimum wage workers spending their extra wages is also too small to be noticeable?

Another point to consider: the only reason the effect on inflation is small is because most of the labour intensive goods we buy come from places with much lower wages and that higher minimum wages will simply encourage the import of more goods from cheaper locales.

Good. Let 'em. There's something fundamentally **** about an industry which is on the one hand always crying that it can't get enough workers but on the other hand always crying that it can't afford to raise wages to attract anybody to work there.
I agree that TFWs for minimum wage retail jobs should be banned. If they need workers raise wages. It is interesting that most people think Henry Ford raised wages so 'his employees could buy his cars' but that is not true. Ford raised wages because he had to compete for labour and wanted to reduce employee turnover.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2018, 01:36:19 am »
What I find interesting is none of the 'minimum wage causes no harm' advocates are willing to answer my question: If $15 is fine why not $100?

What I find interesting is none of 'price increases hurt businesses' advocates are willing to answer my question:  If $15 is too much, why $11?  Why not scrap minimum wage all together and let business owners find the cheapest labour and maximize profits as much as economically possible?

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2018, 06:14:18 am »
What I find interesting is none of the 'minimum wage causes no harm' advocates are willing to answer my question: If $15 is fine why not $100?

I think it is pretty obvious the reason is they don't answer is they don't want to acknowledge the basic premise that raising minimum wages does cause harm and the only thing we can really discuss is if there are situations where the harm caused is small enough that we can raise it despite the  harms. For my part, I would agree that raising the wages when the economy is growing and the amount is at least comparable to the rate of inflation is likely fine. Any higher than that and you asking for trouble - especially when the next recession hits. There are likely other criteria such as the relationship between the median wage and the minimum wage which need to be considered as well.

Unfortunately, we can't get to a discussion about the evaluating the circumstances where a minimum wage hike is likely OK because the minimum wage advocates are too ideological to accept what should be an obvious point: "increasing minimum wages causes harm'.

First of all, you only asked the questions 4 hours before.

I will respond in time.

Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2018, 07:09:30 am »
What I find interesting is none of 'price increases hurt businesses' advocates are willing to answer my question:  If $15 is too much, why $11?  Why not scrap minimum wage all together and let business owners find the cheapest labour and maximize profits as much as economically possible?
No one has asked that question so your response is kind of silly. To answer: Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Italy and Switzerland all have no minimum wage but are not low wage hell. There is no academic justification for minimum wages when there are social support systems in place and immigration is kept under control. One of the problems in Canada is we are too quick to let people in when businesses scream labour shortages. While these cries are justified when it comes to some specialized skill sets they are more often a reflection of the fact that businesses are not willing to raise their wages to attract workers. Getting rid of the minimum wage *and* restricting immigration would send a clear messages to businesses that if they want people they have to pay a wage that attracts workers. This would lead to a more dynamic market that would benefit workers in the long run.