Author Topic: What you need to get a Tim Horton's  (Read 2096 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2018, 11:44:44 am »
How much does raising the minimum wage have in a macroeconomic sense?  I doubt the minimum-wage earner is a significant driver of things like inflation.  I think the notion that this will just drive prices up for everybody is greatly over-rated.  In places where minimum wages have risen, has any link to inflation ever been detected?

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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2018, 11:56:11 am »
Corporations have a long history of spinning the facts to make themselves look good, much like politicians.   Certainly increase in employee wages across the board will result in higher costs to the company.  But I don't think the solution is keeping people at poverty wages and leaving the taxpayer to pick up (some of) the slack through subsidies provided by the government.   JJ Bean seems to think it can offset the wage increases by raising it's prices 50 cents or less on product; somehow I doubt that 50 cents is going to make a lot of difference to the people who support these stores.  That this particular Tim's franchise chose to cut back on the employees suggests to me that they wanted to do this already, and the wage increase was just an excuse they could use.
I know companies spin but the facts in this particular circumstance suggest the owners are being honest about not having control over the prices:

https://www.thestar.com/business/2018/01/12/some-tim-hortons-locations-raise-prices-amid-minimum-wage-controversy.html
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Those franchisees and the GWNFA partly blame RBI, which controls pricing, for refusing to help franchisees stomach the $2.40 jump in minimum hourly wages by boosting what they can charge for food and beverages, among other requests.
The GWNFA source says franchisees want menu prices to go up by about 10 per cent across the board in Canada
IOW - the owners want prices to go up but the parent company won't let them.


Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2018, 12:03:54 pm »
How much does raising the minimum wage have in a macroeconomic sense?  I doubt the minimum-wage earner is a significant driver of things like inflation.  I think the notion that this will just drive prices up for everybody is greatly over-rated.  In places where minimum wages have risen, has any link to inflation ever been detected?
Minimum wage affects almost all retail which affects a big portion of the CPI. Whether the effects will be measurable is an open question.

To all the people with the tiresome argument that we can raise the minimum wage because the rules of economics do not apply I have a question: why stop at 15$? Why not a 100$ minimum wage? Anyone who tries to answer that question honestly will be forced to concede that the rules of economics do apply and the only real argument is the negative consequences are not significant in some situations. But that leads to the question about what are the situations where the consequences small enough that we don't need to worry? Without knowing that we can't say that  any given minimum wage hike will have minimal harm.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:07:19 pm by TimG »

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2018, 12:19:23 pm »
I think this opinion piece makes some good points:
1.  TH wants us to believe they're just another nice Canadian, and not one of those nasty corporate entities, out to screw everyone and anyone to keep their bottom line.
2.  This wasn't a surprise, they've had six months to prepare - so why couldn't they have come up with a better plan than screwing over employees?

If the TH franchises suffer because their head office is being a dick, then perhaps their head office will have to stop being a dick.  Let's hope that happens.

And the link (thanks Kimmy). https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/01/09/timmies-warm-and-fuzzy-brand-identity-becomes-faded-and-torn.html

Offline kimmy

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2018, 12:20:46 pm »
Minimum wage affects almost all retail which affects a big portion of the CPI. Whether the effects will be measurable is an open question.


The hypothetical "basket of goods" is comprised of:

Quote
    FOOD AND BEVERAGES (breakfast cereal, milk, coffee, chicken, wine, full service meals, snacks)
    HOUSING (rent of primary residence, owners' equivalent rent, fuel oil, bedroom furniture)
    APPAREL (men's shirts and sweaters, women's dresses, jewelry)
    TRANSPORTATION (new vehicles, airline fares, gasoline, motor vehicle insurance)
    MEDICAL CARE (prescription drugs and medical supplies, physicians' services, eyeglasses and eye care, hospital services)
    RECREATION (televisions, toys, pets and pet products, sports equipment, admissions);
    EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATION (college tuition, postage, telephone services, computer software and accessories);
    OTHER GOODS AND SERVICES (tobacco and smoking products, haircuts and other personal services, funeral expenses).


The salary of a minimum-wage cashier or sales-person is a negligibly small portion of most of these costs.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2018, 12:24:35 pm »
I think this opinion piece makes some good points:
1.  TH wants us to believe they're just another nice Canadian, and not one of those nasty corporate entities, out to screw everyone and anyone to keep their bottom line.
2.  This wasn't a surprise, they've had six months to prepare - so why couldn't they have come up with a better plan than screwing over employees?

If the TH franchises suffer because their head office is being a dick, then perhaps their head office will have to stop being a dick.  Let's hope that happens.

Was there supposed to be a link?

They haven't been a Canadian company for years... it's all just branding. They're wrapping themselves in Canadiana as a marketing strategy.  Tim Horton's franchisees were among the most outrageous offenders when it came to exploiting the TFW program a few years back. They're not patriots, they're businessmen.  Maybe they thought that people would be so gulled by their hype that they thought they could act like a bunch of pricks without anybody noticing.


 -k
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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2018, 12:29:39 pm »
If the TH franchises suffer because their head office is being a dick, then perhaps their head office will have to stop being a dick.  Let's hope that happens.
The battle between the franchisees and the parent is not new: http://business.financialpost.com/news/retail-marketing/tim-hortons-franchisees-sue-corporate-parent-for-850m-alleging-bullying-and-intimidation

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Tim Hortons franchisees sue corporate parent for $850M, alleging bullying and intimidation

Filed on Friday, it marks the second class action lawsuit from unhappy Tim Hortons store owners this year against their corporate parent
When discussing TH management it is important distinguish between the holding company and the franchisee owners.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:31:51 pm by TimG »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2018, 02:21:58 pm »
They're wrapping themselves in Canadiana as a marketing strategy.   

One thing I would *love* to see coming out of this is the jingoistic tear-jerking all-Canadian marketing campaign dying... when the company is Brazillian controlled.  Those campaign practically celebrate the bewilderment of the people they celebrate.  I find it insulting to Canadians.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2018, 02:39:23 pm »
How much does raising the minimum wage have in a macroeconomic sense?  I doubt the minimum-wage earner is a significant driver of things like inflation.  I think the notion that this will just drive prices up for everybody is greatly over-rated.  In places where minimum wages have risen, has any link to inflation ever been detected?

 -k

The average profit margin for the restaurant and retail trade in Canada is just 3.4%. Your costs don't have to rise very high before you're forced to raise prices.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2018, 02:52:07 pm »
The average profit margin for the restaurant and retail trade in Canada is just 3.4%. Your costs don't have to rise very high before you're forced to raise prices.

There are a lot of factors in play on that assertion.  Restaurants have been exploding lately.  Some of them make more margins than others.  Kimmy already published 'the basket'. 

I think the key factors to look at in the next 6-12 months are unemployment and inflation.

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2018, 02:52:39 pm »

Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2018, 02:54:11 pm »
Dear employees.  Much like the feudal lords with their serfs, we own you and therefore please follow the command of your betters and contact the government to say you are displeased with your higher wages.

Signed - the brilliant and entitled people who had the genius to own and operate a turnkey franchise.  That is all.
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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2018, 02:57:32 pm »
I think the key factors to look at in the next 6-12 months are unemployment and inflation.
The effects are longer term. 6 month changes don't mean much. Most of the job loss will not come from specific people losing  their jobs but from businesses that don't expand or don't start in the first place and from automation that replaces new workers. I realize that everyone would like some definitive data that would settle this argument once and for all but I don't think we will ever get that.

Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2018, 03:04:26 pm »
Signed - the brilliant and entitled people who had the genius to own and operate a turnkey franchise.  That is all.
Of course you have zero information about the profit margins that this specific business operates on. You have no way to know if the wage gains push a profitable business into a loss. Yet you condemn a business owner for lashing out at the shameless political opportunist who decided on a whim to destroy the business that they had invested their life savings in.

No matter what one thinks of minimum wages 20% in one year is ridiculous move and can only hurt them people it claims to help.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2018, 03:14:03 pm »
Dear employees.  Much like the feudal lords with their serfs, we own you and therefore please follow the command of your betters and contact the government to say you are displeased with your higher wages.

Signed - the brilliant and entitled people who had the genius to own and operate a turnkey franchise.  That is all.

These people don't owe you a job, let alone a well-paid job. Why is it their responsibility that you don't have the skills to command higher wages? They should just willingly fork over a substantial portion of their profits to you? They can just close the place down and use their money on the stock market. They'd probably get a better return, in fact. If the wage increases cut too deeply into profits, then even if a place is profitable - a bit - they'll likely close. Why sacrifice a possible 8% profit margin somewhere else for a 1% profit margin now? I really don't know why anyone would own a restaurant, or for that matter, a grocery store, when the profit margins are so slim.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 03:15:54 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum