« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 16

Author Topic: What you need to get a Tim Horton's  (Read 2129 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2018, 10:36:39 am »
Quote from: dia on January 13, 2018, 10:20:58 am
JJ Bean raises wages in BC to match Ontario's hike.  They also raise prices between one and three percent. 
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/british-columbia/jj-bean-coffee-wage-increase-hike-1.4486070
It will be interesting to see how this plays out for them  I rarely go to coffee shops, but I would pay the extra to support JJ Bean.  I wonder how many others feel the same.

The more you increase the price of coffee and donuts the fewer people will want coffee and donuts. That's a basic rule of economics.
Logged
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2018, 10:39:39 am »
Quote from: MH on January 13, 2018, 09:42:54 am
What is clear to me is that we are in a big, risky experiment.  The Ontario Liberals will live or die on the results.

Ah, but that's the beauty of it from a political standpoint. They get all the credit for increasing the minimum wage from grateful minimum wage earners, but the job losses will take a while. It's not like 100,000 people will lose their jobs immediately. The losses will be gradual and accumulative and take place largely AFTER the election.

This is similar to them cutting electricity wages by 25%. Everyone gets the benefit NOW. The bills for the extra loans needed to pay for that cut come in over the next twenty years.

Quote
I for one am inclined to think this change will have a negative impact but I am also considering that these wages will go back into the economy whereas increased profits will go into bank stocks or offshore to Brazil.

The case of Tim Hortons is unique in that the franchisees have been denied permission to raise prices. But everyone else is already raising their prices to make up for the increased cost of paying employees. There is no new money going into the economy. The money for the increased wages is coming from ordinary people who are buying coffee, going to restaurants, buying groceries, etc. All that stuff just got more expensive for everyone, including these minimum wage earners.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:43:52 am by SirJohn »
Logged
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2018, 11:20:18 am »
Quote from: MH on January 13, 2018, 09:42:54 am
For those of you predicting economic ruin, 10s of thousands of jobs lost I am sure we all hope that's wrong.
The trouble is we can never know how many jobs were really lost because we can never know what jobs were never created because of the higher cost structures. McDonalds around here have gotten rid of their people taking orders and replaced them with a self serve kiosks. Maybe that was inevitable but you can't argue that the cost of labour was not a factor in McDonald's decision to eliminate those jobs.

The bigger issue is who loses out. The bottom tier of jobs is the entry point into the labour market and if you eliminate those jobs more people will have trouble getting into the workforce. And it is not just teens who lose out on that valuable 'first job' - it also seniors with limited pensions who really don't have the option of training for a new career.

My own thinking is increasing the minimum wage at or around the rate of inflation will have no impact because wages are staying constant. As soon as the increases are above that you are inviting disaster - but it will be very difficult to measure because there are always so many confounding factors (i.e. did those kiosks go in because of technological change or the minimum wage? Different economists can make different assumptions and bias the results in the way that suits them).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 11:22:03 am by TimG »
Logged

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2018, 11:24:45 am »
Quote from: SirJohn on January 13, 2018, 10:39:39 am
The case of Tim Hortons is unique in that the franchisees have been denied permission to raise prices. But everyone else is already raising their prices to make up for the increased cost of paying employees. There is no new money going into the economy. The money for the increased wages is coming from ordinary people who are buying coffee, going to restaurants, buying groceries, etc. All that stuff just got more expensive for everyone, including these minimum wage earners.
One group that gets screwed by minimum wage increases are workers who earn a bit more than minimum wage because their income stays the same yet prices go up. Since there are more of those people than minimum wage workers it makes no sense to argue that there could be a net increase in economic activity if prices are increased to pay workers more. The only way there could be a net increase in economic activity is if the higher labour costs spur increases in productivity that exceed the mandated wage increases. But increases in a labour productivity usually mean fewer workers working fewer hours.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 11:29:28 am by TimG »
Logged

Offline JMT

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3462
  • Location: Waterhen, Manitoba
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2018, 11:57:10 am »
Quote from: TimG on January 13, 2018, 11:20:18 am
The trouble is we can never know how many jobs were really lost because we can never know what jobs were never created because of the higher cost structures.

Such beliefs sort of make any kind of analysis of anything impossible though.
Logged

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2018, 12:45:22 pm »
Quote from: JMT on January 13, 2018, 11:57:10 am
Such beliefs sort of make any kind of analysis of anything impossible though.
It is fact of life - not a belief. On top of that perception has a"reality bias" meaning people tend to accept the status quo don't perceive losses relative to some imaginary world to be real losses. This is why I prefer to argue from economic fundamentals rather than relying on subjective studies that to try to find evidence of job loss after the fact because such studies can never capture what 'might have been'.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 12:56:47 pm by TimG »
Logged

Offline cybercoma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2956
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2018, 04:20:46 pm »
Quote from: JMT on January 13, 2018, 11:57:10 am
Such beliefs sort of make any kind of analysis of anything impossible though.
Tim uses this tactic in every discussion where evidence proves him wrong. I’ve descrived at length his radical “skepticism” elsewhere, which is nothing more than intellectual nihilism.
Logged

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2018, 05:09:31 pm »
Quote from: cybercoma on January 13, 2018, 04:20:46 pm
I’ve descrived at length his radical “skepticism” elsewhere, which is nothing more than intellectual nihilism.
And why is it a problem to be honest about the flimsy foundations that our so-called knowledge is built on? You seem to think that you should be able settle any debate because some academics made a bunch of assumptions, analyzed some data and made some claims. That is often not enough when dealing with problems that cannot be studied in a lab. But instead of engaging with a discussion about the limitations of the studies you get snarky and throw around fun sounding labels like 'nihilist'. 
Logged

Offline SirJohn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5801
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2018, 05:17:58 pm »
Quote from: TimG on January 13, 2018, 05:09:31 pm
And why is it a problem to be honest about the flimsy foundations that our so-called knowledge is built on?

Because you question his sacred truths. And that cannot be accepted.
Logged
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2269
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2018, 05:25:46 pm »
Quote from: TimG on January 12, 2018, 10:38:27 am
This logic is nonsense. Minimum wages are not a 'tax on the rich'. They simply inflate the cost of employing people and encourage businesses to cut staff and benefits in order to maintain profitability. IOW - it is naive to assume that hikes in minimum wages will actually result in more aggregate income.

Why cut staff and benefits?  Without crunching the numbers, I would guess that raising the price of a coffee by 5 or 10 cents should suffice. 

$15/hr is not an outrageous amount in this country, businesses should price their goods and services accordingly to ensure that full-time workers are not living in poverty.   
Logged

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2269
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2018, 05:31:12 pm »
Quote from: Moonlight Graham on January 12, 2018, 09:07:58 pm
Ultimately this is Kathleen Wynne and her government's fault.  There was no need to go from 11 dollars and change to $14 literally overnight.  It's too much of a shock to businesses.  Do it more gradually over say a 5 year period.  Or stick it to $13 and see how that works out.  Then to $14 and see how that goes economically in the province.  Pulling a random # out of the air seems pretty nonsensical.

It went from 11 something to $14 this year because this is an election year in Ontario and Wynne is trying her best to buy votes, to hell if businesses start closing next year or have to cut staff, another 5 more years for voters to forget and buy their votes again.

With the way the price of food and housing keeps going up, I don't think it was too much of a stretch.

Having said that, I don't believe in province-wide minimum wages, I think they should be more local.  There is no reason a person living in small town needs to make the same minimum wage as someone living in a big city.

Vancouver has a basic living wage of $20/hr, for example.
Logged

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2018, 05:35:45 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on January 13, 2018, 05:25:46 pm
Why cut staff and benefits?  Without crunching the numbers, I would guess that raising the price of a coffee by 5 or 10 cents should suffice.
The wall street types running the Tim Hortons chain apparently refused to allow price hikes nor did they reduce food costs or royalties. That left Tim's owners with the choice  of shutting down or cutting payroll costs in whatever way they could.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 05:39:06 pm by TimG »
Logged

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2269
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2018, 05:38:51 pm »
Quote from: TimG on January 13, 2018, 05:35:45 pm
The wall street types running the Tim Hornets chain apparently refused to allow price hikes nor did they reduce food costs or royalties. That left Tim's owners with the choice  of shutting down or cutting payroll costs in whatever way they could.

Bullshit

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-hortons-breakfast-sandwich-price-increase-minimum-wage-1.4483543

But of course they deny it to save face.  Bad PR on their part.
Logged

Offline TimG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2018, 05:41:31 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on January 13, 2018, 05:38:51 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-hortons-breakfast-sandwich-price-increase-minimum-wage-1.4483543
Yawn. Can you at least read the links before you post them? The article notes that these were previously scheduled price hikes on a small subset of the menu that would have happened even with no minimum wage hike. What the owners need is across the board price hikes which they are not allowed to do.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 05:44:28 pm by TimG »
Logged

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2269
Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2018, 05:47:35 pm »
Quote from: TimG on January 13, 2018, 05:41:31 pm
Yawn. Can you at least read the links before you posted them? The article notes that these were previously scheduled price hikes on a small subset of the menu that would have happened even with no minimum wage hike. What the owners need is across the board price hikes which they are not allowed to do.

As I said before, of course they'd try and save face by denying it.  Obviously the bad PR got to them.
Logged
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 16
« previous next »