Author Topic: What you need to get a Tim Horton's  (Read 1124 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2018, 10:25:02 am »
Not getting involved in the math or anything, but every Horton's I know is open 24hrs/day and 15 staff at any given time doesn't seem too insane a figure.  I haven't counted, of course.
Depends where you live. Where I live, in the middle of the night there's maybe 2 people working. But then, our province's min wage didn't go up to $15 either.

Offline the_squid

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2018, 10:27:37 am »
The average Tims is open about 18 hrs, though some are 24hrs. And in addition to the increased pay the franchisees have to pay them more sick leave and give them more holidays as well as pay a larger employer contribution to such things as CPP, UI and others. The numbers were provided by the franchisee association, not me. No one has contradicted them, from either the government or the company, but evidently YOU have insider information I'm sure you'll be benefiting us all with so the conversation can embrace the truth. Let's have it.


You’re the one quoting numbers from an unknown source (your butt?) and then saying “no one proved these numbers were wrong”.   ::)
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2018, 10:28:08 am »
Depends where you live. Where I live, in the middle of the night there's maybe 2 people working. But then, our province's min wage didn't go up to $15 either.

I've never been in one in the middle of the night, so fair enough, but during the day here in Alberta, I don't think 15 is out of the question.

I'm going to get arrested the next time I go for a dark roast 2 milk.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2018, 10:28:51 am »
The macro economic situation doesn't seem to be addressed here, ie that many millions of dollars will go to the lowest earners and biggest spenders.  Whatever THEY spend money on will see more revenues.
I'm sure none of that increased revenue will go towards buying coffee and Tim Bits. /s

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2018, 10:34:15 am »
Government policies should not be deliberately killing jobs for the group of people who have the most difficulty finding jobs.
There's no evidence that increasing minimum wage kills jobs.

There's numerous academic studies for you to peruse here: https://www.businessforafairminimumwage.org/news/00135/research-shows-minimum-wage-increases-do-not-cause-job-loss

This article contextualizes your favourite Seattle job loss study: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/upshot/minimum-wage-and-job-loss-one-alarming-seattle-study-is-not-the-last-word.html

Even studies in other high income countries show the same thing: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/11/the-evidence-is-clear-increasing-the-minimum-wage-doesnt-cause-unemployment

Anyone still parroting the "minimum wage kills jobs" line is either uninformed or malicious.
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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2018, 10:38:27 am »
The macro economic situation doesn't seem to be addressed here, ie that many millions of dollars will go to the lowest earners and biggest spenders.  Whatever THEY spend money on will see more revenues.
This logic is nonsense. Minimum wages are not a 'tax on the rich'. They simply inflate the cost of employing people and encourage businesses to cut staff and benefits in order to maintain profitability. IOW - it is naive to assume that hikes in minimum wages will actually result in more aggregate income.

Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 10:48:09 am »
There's no evidence that increasing minimum wage kills jobs.
Just 100 years of economic theory.

Anyone who says a carbon tax reduces emissions cannot logically claim that increasing wage costs has no impact on jobs.
The rules of economics do not change simply because someone's political desires require the change.

The academic literature is mixed (which means there is evidences supporting my claim which you ignored).
Ideologically driven economists will obviously attack the Seattle study but that does not mean it conclusions were wrong.

More importantly, economic theory says that there will be impact so it requires extraordinary evidence to establish the opposite.
Studies that claim that it can't be measured are not extraordinary evidence because it could mean they are not measuring it properly.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 10:51:54 am by TimG »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 02:24:12 pm »

You’re the one quoting numbers from an unknown source (your butt?) and then saying “no one proved these numbers were wrong”.   ::)

Oh, I'm sorry. That's my silly self imagining that anyone interested in discussing a subject would first take at least some small bit of time to acquaint themselves with the facts of the matter, perhaps read a newspaper or something. I continually overestimate people, though.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/retail-marketing/by-the-numbers-tim-hortons-franchisees-and-ontarios-minimum-wage-hike/wcm/0adbab69-cda1-4923-a9c0-05201bedc32d
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 02:26:17 pm »
There's no evidence that increasing minimum wage kills jobs.

I hate to continue to refer to Haidt, but it just happens that he speaks to a lot of fundamental social justice beliefs, which is why he keeps coming to mind.
He talks about how virtually everyone agrees without question on the fundamental economic element of price vs demand, that if you try to patiently explain to someone that increasing cost will decrease demand they'll roll their eyes and go "Well, duh! I'm not an idiot."

Except for the social justice types when you talk about wage hikes. There, somehow, this magically disappears! You can raise wages as much as you want to! It won't cost any jobs! All those economists who say otherwise, including the Bank of Canada, are just making figures up! You can even implement a drastic wage increase out of the blue for no good economic reason but just to gain votes, and it won't cost jobs!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 02:28:22 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 02:27:47 pm »
Just 100 years of economic theory.
This is such a ridiculous argument, when I just gave you links to over a hundred different studies that say otherwise. I'm not sure you understand economic theory, since you and other neo-liberals never actually think about the macroeconomic implications of raised min wage.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2018, 02:28:48 pm »
This is such a ridiculous argument, when I just gave you links to over a hundred different studies that say otherwise. I'm not sure you understand economic theory, since you and other neo-liberals never actually think about the macroeconomic implications of raised min wage.

Evidently the Bank of Canada does not understand economic theory either, nor the TD bank. Perhaps you could give them a call and offer to deliver a lecture.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2018, 02:30:07 pm »
I hate to continue to refer to Haidt, but it just happens that he speaks to a lot of fundamental social justice beliefs, which is why he keeps coming to mind.
He talks about how virtually everyone agrees without question on the fundamental economic element of price vs demand, that if you try to patiently explain to someone that increasing cost will decrease demand they'll roll their eyes and go "Well, duh! I'm not an idiot."

Except for the social justice types when you talk about wage hikes. There, somehow, this magically disappears! You can raise wages as much as you want to! It won't cost any jobs! All those economists who say otherwise, including the Bank of Canada, are just making figures up! You can even implement a drastic wage increase out of the blue for no good economic reason but just to gain votes, and it won't cost jobs!
Supply and demand is not simple A then B. Prices have elasticity and there's myriad macroeconomic factors that go into things as well. It's not just a matter of wages go up, prices go up. This is a problem of having just enough knowledge to know something about economics, but not enough knowledge to account for all the other things.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2018, 02:35:18 pm »
Supply and demand is not simple A then B. Prices have elasticity and there's myriad macroeconomic factors that go into things as well. It's not just a matter of wages go up, prices go up. This is a problem of having just enough knowledge to know something about economics, but not enough knowledge to account for all the other things.

I'm well aware of price elasticity, thanks. I spent a lot of time desperately trying to keep my enormously heavy eyelids apart while reading some of the thickest and most boring economics books imaginable. However, most of the jobs for minimum wage people, especially for services like coffee shops, are highly elastic. It's not like paying the rent. You can choose not to have as many coffees or donuts if the price gets higher. You can choose not to go out to restaurants. You can dry clean less. And in terms of manufacturing, the requirement to race prices is definitely going to lower demand where it's in competition with lower wage manufacturers elsewhere in Canada, North America or the world.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 02:36:55 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2018, 03:01:21 pm »
This is such a ridiculous argument, when I just gave you links to over a hundred different studies that say otherwise.
Yes - and many - if not most of those studies argue the effect is not detectable which is a plausible outcome when minimum wage increases are small or it could mean the effects only apply to the particular circumstances in the study. That does not mean economic theory is wrong. Asserting that the economic theory is wrong takes more than a few studies to claim inconclusive effects.

In any case, you are misrepresenting the state of the literature. The literature is mixed on the topic so your assertion that "there is no evidence" is basically BS. If you were interested in discussing the topic honestly you would at least acknowledge that.

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economic-letter/2015/december/effects-of-minimum-wage-on-employment/

Quote
How do we summarize this evidence? Many studies over the years find that higher minimum wages reduce employment of teens and low-skilled workers more generally. Recent exceptions that find no employment effects typically use a particular version of estimation methods with close geographic controls that may obscure job losses. Recent research using a wider variety of methods to address the problem of comparison states tends to confirm earlier findings of job loss. Coupled with critiques of the methods that generate little evidence of job loss, the overall body of recent evidence suggests that the most credible conclusion is a higher minimum wage results in some job loss for the least-skilled workers—with possibly larger adverse effects than earlier research suggested.
So are you going to argue that the "Professor of Economics and Director of the Center for Economics & Public Policy at the University of California" does not know what he is talking about?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:08:26 pm by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2018, 06:56:23 pm »
His arguments were addressed in the links I provided. Go read them.