Author Topic: What you need to get a Tim Horton's  (Read 1124 times)

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Offline MH

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What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« on: January 11, 2018, 06:25:42 am »
https://www.milliondollarjourney.com/how-much-does-a-tim-hortons-franchise-make-cost.htm

Once you are set up, start bringing in TFWs from the Phillipines and you're off to the races.

This is where capital goes these days.  I feel that it's a bit of a problem actually.  Thoughts ?

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 07:08:03 am »
https://www.milliondollarjourney.com/how-much-does-a-tim-hortons-franchise-make-cost.htm

Once you are set up, start bringing in TFWs from the Phillipines and you're off to the races.

This is where capital goes these days.  I feel that it's a bit of a problem actually.  Thoughts ?

What do you have a problem with exactly?  You make an initial investment then have a virtually guaranteed cash cow.

The problem with temporary foreign workers working at Timmies is that it lowers wages for Canadians.  If you have an Italian restaurant and you don't have any Italian born-and-raised chefs in the area, then ok I can understand bringing in a TFW.  But if you have a job like working at Timmies that requires virtually no skill or education minus speaking english (or french), then there is ZERO need to bring in TFW because those skills are easily available in Canada literally EVERYWHERE, and if you can't find enough people responding to jobs ads at Timmies then you RAISE THE WAGES so you attract more candidates.  Businesses want TFW in many cases so they can keep wages low.  It's bullshit.  Let the invisible hand of supply and demand work for Canadian workers, and maybe we wouldn't even need to raise the minimum wage because wages would increase on their own.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 04:12:56 pm »
https://www.milliondollarjourney.com/how-much-does-a-tim-hortons-franchise-make-cost.htm

Once you are set up, start bringing in TFWs from the Phillipines and you're off to the races.

This is where capital goes these days.  I feel that it's a bit of a problem actually.  Thoughts ?

I've stated my position on TFWs numerous times. I'm completely opposed to TH or any other low-skilled service organization bringing in temporary foreign workers. Raise your wages and raise prices and you'll be good. If that means you'll have fewer customers (almost certainly) tough noogies.

That does NOT mean I in any way, shape or form support the Ontario Liberals' in their regulated increase of the minimum wage to absurd levels. It is, as one columnist put it, an attempt at outsourcing the cost of a public social justice agenda to small business, and more of that newfound Liberal/NDP delight in class warfare. It's also a farce since the Liberals don't give a **** about the poor but only in convincing the dumb to vote for them again by being 'generous' with other peoples money.

Incidentally, in various readings today I learned that the average profit for a Tim Horton's franchisee is about $289,000 a year, and also that the sudden abrupt increase in the minimum wage, in sick and vacation hours will cost each franchise, on average, about $248,000. And the Liberals call them bullies for trying to cut back on other things to make up for those added costs.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 04:15:16 pm by SirJohn »
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Offline MH

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2018, 05:30:21 pm »
Ah well, I guess the cash cow didn't work out.

My problem is that we may be discouraging innovation and investments that would bring a greater general benefit in favour of having a donut shop on every corner.

Offline the_squid

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2018, 07:44:25 pm »
For Sir Johnís math to work, each Tims would have to be paying $42/hr in additional wages and benefits.  The average Tims has 15-20 staff on every hour of every day?   Not likely.

Either Sir John is making it up, or heís believing Tims propaganda.
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2018, 08:43:06 pm »
For Sir Johnís math to work, each Tims would have to be paying $42/hr in additional wages and benefits.  The average Tims has 15-20 staff on every hour of every day?   Not likely.

Either Sir John is making it up, or heís believing Tims propaganda.

Not getting involved in the math or anything, but every Horton's I know is open 24hrs/day and 15 staff at any given time doesn't seem too insane a figure.  I haven't counted, of course.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2018, 10:57:10 pm »
Not getting involved in the math or anything, but every Horton's I know is open 24hrs/day and 15 staff at any given time doesn't seem too insane a figure.  I haven't counted, of course.

Your math sucks.  15 staff?  Maybe in the busiest Tims at peak times.
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2018, 11:03:28 pm »
Your math sucks.  15 staff?  Maybe in the busiest Tims at peak times.

Well, I did say I wasn't getting into the math, so I'm not sure what sucked.  Maybe Alberta Horton's are busier than BC's.  Maybe we need more Starbucks to compete.

If I go in one tomorrow I'll secretly count everyone.
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Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2018, 11:16:57 pm »
Not getting involved in the math or anything, but every Horton's I know is open 24hrs/day and 15 staff at any given time doesn't seem too insane a figure.  I haven't counted, of course.
From various searches:

Tim Hortons franchise profit margin: 15%-20%
Typical fast food labour costs: 25-30%
Increase in costs due to Wynne (wage+regulations): 28%
Increase in costs when $15/hour kicks in: 37%.
 
So worst case: labour costs increase to: 41% of revenues which reduces profit margin to 4%-9% before tax or a 55%-75% drop in profit.
I don't know about you but I would be rather annoyed if Wynne cut my wages by 75% simply because she wanted to buy some votes.
Also these are rough averages so I am sure some stores will now start losing money.

Bottom line: these kinds of large jumps will only harm the people that the politicians claim to want to help because they can force companies to pay more but they can't force companies to hire people.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 11:18:51 pm by TimG »

Offline MH

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 06:08:48 am »
Is the government obliged to ensure that the fast food business thrives or is it responsible for the economy overall ?

The macro economic situation doesn't seem to be addressed here, ie that many millions of dollars will go to the lowest earners and biggest spenders.  Whatever THEY spend money on will see more revenues.

I am not taking sides on this issue, as I think it is a drastic experiment in reverse trickle-down, however the immaturity of the economic arguments (in general, not on here) means that a lot of questions aren't being considered.

Instead, I am seeing a lot of facebook posts about what people 'deserve', ie. 'greedy' franchise owners vs. 'undeserving' workers etc. etc. etc.

It's an economy, people.

Offline TimG

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 08:24:01 am »
Is the government obliged to ensure that the fast food business thrives or is it responsible for the economy overall ?
Government policies should not be deliberately killing jobs for the group of people who have the most difficulty finding jobs. I can accept the argument that minimum wages should rise with the rate of inflation because inflation ends up being a pay cut but 20% in 1 year is absurd.  This is on top of the small business tax changes by the feds and the carbon tax so no one should be surprised if some business owners are in a F** Y** frame of mind.

Offline kimmy

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2018, 09:06:30 am »
Government policy also should not be propping up businesses that can't survive without cheap, government-arranged laborers.

If there aren't enough workers to support a Tim Horton's on every corner, then maybe there shouldn't be a Tim Horton's on every corner.  If these franchises can't find workers at the wages they pay, maybe they should raise wages to attract workers. If they can't make a profit while paying people enough to work there, maybe they should raise prices accordingly.  If that reduces consumer demand, then again maybe there shouldn't be a Tim Horton's on every corner.

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2018, 09:20:49 am »
For Sir Johnís math to work, each Tims would have to be paying $42/hr in additional wages and benefits.  The average Tims has 15-20 staff on every hour of every day?   Not likely.

Either Sir John is making it up, or heís believing Tims propaganda.

The average Tims is open about 18 hrs, though some are 24hrs. And in addition to the increased pay the franchisees have to pay them more sick leave and give them more holidays as well as pay a larger employer contribution to such things as CPP, UI and others. The numbers were provided by the franchisee association, not me. No one has contradicted them, from either the government or the company, but evidently YOU have insider information I'm sure you'll be benefiting us all with so the conversation can embrace the truth. Let's have it.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2018, 09:27:08 am »
Is the government obliged to ensure that the fast food business thrives or is it responsible for the economy overall ?

The macro economic situation doesn't seem to be addressed here, ie that many millions of dollars will go to the lowest earners and biggest spenders.  Whatever THEY spend money on will see more revenues.

The economists say differently. Every one I've read quoted in various news media says that overall this is not going to help anyone as the employees with better wages will wind up paying higher prices for things anyway, simply because every single service industry they use will have to raise their prices, as will places like grocery and drug stores. In addition, tens of thousands will lose their jobs entirely and the move to find automated systems will be given another push. In terms of non-service industries, like manufacturing, obviously they will now be less competitive with imports and less competitive in trying to export to other countries with lower minimum wages.

Remember this will not only impact minimum wage earners. Min wage was $11.40, which means that in December, some employees with more skills were making $14, $15, $16hr. Do you think employers can keep paying them what is essentially now minimum wage? Hardly. They'll have to bump them up several dollars an hour too.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: What you need to get a Tim Horton's
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2018, 10:23:51 am »
For Sir Johnís math to work, each Tims would have to be paying $42/hr in additional wages and benefits.  The average Tims has 15-20 staff on every hour of every day?   Not likely.

Either Sir John is making it up, or heís believing Tims propaganda.
And don't forget it's not every province that increased its min wage.