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Author Topic: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A  (Read 1355 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2018, 08:57:35 am »
Quote from: Coonlight Graham on August 11, 2018, 02:08:12 am
I think building statues of politicians and most people in general is pretty ridiculous.  And putting politicians on our money seems pretty weird too, imagine Harper or Chretien on our money one day...yuck.

We should celebrate deeds, not glorify people.

That is what we ARE doing with these statues. MacDonald isn't up there because he was PM but because he built Canada. Most people thought the idea was ridiculous and such a nation could never exist or never last. MacDonald managed to deftly manoeuvre it into place and keep it going during its infancy. That is what we recognize when putting up a statue to him.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2018, 09:43:55 am »
Quote from: SirJohn on August 11, 2018, 08:57:35 am
That is what we ARE doing with these statues. MacDonald isn't up there because he was PM but because he built Canada. Most people thought the idea was ridiculous and such a nation could never exist or never last. MacDonald managed to deftly manoeuvre it into place and keep it going during its infancy. That is what we recognize when putting up a statue to him.

And he "deftly" starved groups of indigenous people, whom he referred to as "savages", and took children away from their parents (why does that sound familiar just now ) in accomplishing his goals, which are a couple of the reasons why the statue is being taken down. I don't agree with trying to whitewash history, but all aspects of it should be remembered. I'll await to see what is written on the plaque intended to replace the statue.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2018, 09:55:09 am »
Quote from: Omni on August 11, 2018, 09:43:55 am
And he "deftly" starved groups of indigenous people, whom he referred to as "savages", and took children away from their parents (why does that sound familiar just now ) in accomplishing his goals, which are a couple of the reasons why the statue is being taken down. I don't agree with trying to whitewash history, but all aspects of it should be remembered. I'll await to see what is written on the plaque intended to replace the statue.

McDonald's feelings about natives being savages were echoed by about 99.99% of the population of Europe at the time. He wanted to civilize and educate them, to bring them into the towns and cities to live as Canadians. That made him a progressive at that time. As for schooling, the standard at that time for people of McDonald's generation was boarding school. He went to one himself.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2018, 04:15:10 am »
Quote from: Omni on August 11, 2018, 09:43:55 am
And he "deftly" starved groups of indigenous people, whom he referred to as "savages", and took children away from their parents (why does that sound familiar just now ) in accomplishing his goals, which are a couple of the reasons why the statue is being taken down. I don't agree with trying to whitewash history, but all aspects of it should be remembered. I'll await to see what is written on the plaque intended to replace the statue.

He's a perfect symbol of Canada and its long history, encapsulated in one man, the good the bad, always a work in progress.

Colonial-era Canada also had slavery until the 1800's, the vast majority being aboriginals holding other aboriginals as slaves as they had done for millennia.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2018, 02:29:33 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on August 10, 2018, 12:16:36 pm
Why the **** should we have to bribe some native activists in order to keep a statue to the founder of the nation?

I would prefer to see the division exposed in this issue as: symbolic vs. substantial.

Exchange a symbolic gesture for a symbolic one.

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Everyone knows the problems with natives are the damned reserves.


If everyone knew that then we'd be solving it as such...

 
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2018, 04:48:44 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 12, 2018, 02:29:33 pm
I would prefer to see the division exposed in this issue as: symbolic vs. substantial.

Exchange a symbolic gesture for a symbolic one.

I don't see it helps at all. Instead they'll just come after more 'symbols' of white oppression.
 
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If everyone knew that then we'd be solving it as such...

Politicians wouldn't unless they could think of a quick, cheap solution that didn't have a lot of political danger. Native chiefs wouldn't unless they could think of a way to preserve their power and fat paycheques. And nobody else can. Ironically, MacDonald is being attacked for getting it right. He wanted to educate natives and bring them into the Canadian mainstream rather than leaving them out in the boonies as 'savages'.



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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2018, 04:59:04 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on August 12, 2018, 04:48:44 pm
I don't see it helps at all. Instead they'll just come after more 'symbols' of white oppression.

The idea is that it would be a negotiation.
 
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Politicians wouldn't unless they could think of a quick, cheap solution that didn't have a lot of political danger.

If the idea caught on outside the halls of politics somebody would have to look at it.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2018, 06:13:39 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 12, 2018, 04:59:04 pm
The idea is that it would be a negotiation.

So far the negotiation has us sacrificing symbols of our past history while hanging our heads in guilt and shame and them then demanding further sacrifices without a single acknowledgement of anything done for them by society or owed by them to society.

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If the idea caught on outside the halls of politics somebody would have to look at it.

Why? Everyone knows the problem is that most of the reserves are not economically self-sustaining and provide no livelihoods for their residents. They've known this for a very long time. It's not like I'm the genius who suddenly realized it.
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2018, 06:24:23 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on August 12, 2018, 06:13:39 pm
So far the negotiation has us sacrificing symbols of our past history while hanging our heads in guilt and shame and them then demanding further sacrifices without a single acknowledgement of anything done for them by society or owed by them to society.

Ok.

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Why? Everyone knows the problem is that most of the reserves are not economically self-sustaining and provide no livelihoods for their residents. They've known this for a very long time. It's not like I'm the genius who suddenly realized it.

Do you want to fix it ?  Breaking the logjam needs some kind of compromise, clearly.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2018, 07:14:59 pm »
Quote from: MH on August 12, 2018, 06:24:23 pm
Do you want to fix it ?  Breaking the logjam needs some kind of compromise, clearly.

Obviously I want to fix it. The current situation is barely tolerable and is only going to get worse as their numbers increase. The problem is you need to have two sides negotiating, and that's not going to happen. The chiefs have a fairly obvious conflict of interest in any negotiation in that they're the only people who prosper and thrive under the current system. So who do you negotiate with?
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Offline Michael Hardner

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2018, 07:19:20 pm »
Quote from: SirJohn on August 12, 2018, 07:14:59 pm
So who do you negotiate with?

The chiefs, I guess.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2018, 07:20:18 pm »
Well I will agree that removing the statue is not going to remove the black mark on our history.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2018, 11:25:13 am »
Quote from: MH on August 12, 2018, 07:19:20 pm
The chiefs, I guess.

And under what scenario is there any profit for these chiefs in eliminating reservations and drawing natives into the mainstream? Some of them are making more than provincial premiers or the prime minister and able to spend the reserve's money however they want with virtually no oversight. Why would they want that changed?
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Offline wilber

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2018, 07:50:24 pm »
Polling indicates about 75% thought the way this was done is wrong. Municipal elections this fall. Could be interesting.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2018, 08:23:35 pm »
Quote from: wilber on August 13, 2018, 07:50:24 pm
Polling indicates about 75% thought the way this was done is wrong. Municipal elections this fall. Could be interesting.

Stuff like this doesn't generally matter a lot in elections. It's basic taxes and stuff. Plus 80% don't vote. And those who do are usually in activist/community associations that are closely courted by mayors and city counselors. I don't know much about Victoria politics, but once you're in office in Ottawa, you're basically in for life, or until you decide to try provincial or federal politics.
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"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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