Author Topic: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A  (Read 587 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2018, 03:23:06 pm »
And from what I have gathered with regard to what's happening in Victoria is they want to address the bad as well as the good.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2018, 03:57:47 pm »
Actually statues do teach history.

At least they gave me the opportunity to talk to Debbie in 7th grade on our class trip to Quebec city. I took her to the school dance that year. I remember Debbie, but damn if I could tell you what statue we had to look at and write down answers about.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2018, 04:01:19 pm »
So you're saying you disagree with people questioning the idea of building statues to celebrate people who did such things as you describe?

The statue is in recognition of the great things he accomplished.
Certainly he was a flawed men. All men are. But his feelings towards natives were actually a hell of a lot better than the opposition liberal leader of the time, who basically wanted them all dead.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2018, 04:02:56 pm »
Sure thing, they will take Montreal, Saint John, Saint Johns, Halifax, Quebec city, Vancouver, Victoria, and other natural waterways and harbors where they were originally established.

If those are the stakes then we'll just have to start up the war again. Who do you think will win?

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2018, 04:03:54 pm »
The statue won't disappear from the world.   It just won't be displayed as something to be revered.  Nothing wrong with taking it down and modernizing our history to include the unsavoury things that happened by the people who built the country.  The whitewashing occured long ago...   this is setting it right and acknowledging the flaws as well as the good.

When do we include the unsavoury parts of native history? You know, like the raping, torture, and genocide they committed on other tribes?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2018, 04:04:29 pm »
It was proposed by a group established by the city council and passed council 7 to 1 in favour. Are you saying there could only be one true conservative on the Victoria city council and the rest are extreme progressives and leftists?

In BC? Wouldn't surprise me.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2018, 04:05:29 pm »
Those "stupidassess" knelt to bring attention to racial discrimination, especially by police. You seem to think merchandise sales is a more important issue.

Blacks have it better in the US today than at any time in history. Far, FAR better. The 'racial discrimination' they're protesting is imaginary.

Don't want to get shot by the cops? Don't be a **** criminal and resist arrest.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2018, 04:13:47 pm »
Blacks have it better in the US today than at any time in history. Far, FAR better. The 'racial discrimination' they're protesting is imaginary.

Don't want to get shot by the cops? Don't be a **** criminal and resist arrest.

Um no. Don't want to be shot by cops, don't be black.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2018, 04:29:51 pm »
But his feelings towards natives were actually a hell of a lot better than the opposition liberal leader of the time, who basically wanted them all dead.

What specific acts (like creating the residential school system) did Alexander Mackenzie do? I'm not sure if there is a statue of him in Victoria, especially one on city property, but if so maybe you should make your case.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2018, 06:18:36 pm »
What specific acts (like creating the residential school system) did Alexander Mackenzie do? I'm not sure if there is a statue of him in Victoria, especially one on city property, but if so maybe you should make your case.

Well, he wound up bringing in the Indian Act as PM.
But while he was opposition leader he railed against the amount of money McDonald was spending on Indians. McDonald wanted to educate Indians, to teach them to be civilized. He sent farmers out to instruct them in farming techniques, for example. He insisted both boys and girls attend school. He wanted to make the Indians a part of the Canada he was building. Mackenzie thought of them as nothing but savages and that it was a waste of time and money trying to civilize them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2018, 06:23:44 pm »
Um no. Don't want to be shot by cops, don't be black.

Really? Lots of completely innocent Black pepole being gunned down by police at random, are there? Got some examples?

Because the three worst examples of unjustified police shootings I can think of all were white people shot by police. None was a criminal. None were armed or resisting arrest or refusing orders. One was in her pajamas, for Gods sakes. Two were in shorts and T-shirts and confronted by groups of heavily armed SWAT protected behind barricades or walls, the suspect out in the open, and shot because a cop felt their hand might have moved somewhere in the general direction of their hip or something. One was the infamous "swatting' incident, and the other was a guy shot while crawling on all fours and crying and begging the cops not to shoot him.

There is a definite problem with police training and how the mindset is created within them of being ready to be violently attacked at any second, and to be ready to respond with their guns. They're poorly trained in fighting and disarming anyone with a weapon, and far too ready to shoot. But that applies to anyone they encounter. They just encounter more Black criminals proportionate to the numbers of Blacks in the population because Blacks are far more likely to be involved in violent crime.


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2018, 02:08:12 am »
So you're saying you disagree with people questioning the idea of building statues to celebrate people who did such things as you describe?

I think building statues of politicians and most people in general is pretty ridiculous.  And putting politicians on our money seems pretty weird too, imagine Harper or Chretien on our money one day...yuck.

We should celebrate deeds, not glorify people.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2018, 02:19:47 am »
I think building statues of politicians and most people in general is pretty ridiculous.  And putting politicians on our money seems pretty weird too, imagine Harper or Chretien on our money one day...yuck.

We should celebrate deeds, not glorify people.

I think in this hi-tech era you should be able to call up the bank and tell 'em you need a thousand bucks and I'll be over there in 20 minutes and they have the paper and can print whatever picture you want on it. I'd have me sittin' in a Caddy convertible with a couple of hot babes waving in the wind.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2018, 03:10:40 am »
Sure thing, they will take Montreal, Saint John, Saint Johns, Halifax, Quebec city, Vancouver, Victoria, and other natural waterways and harbors where they were originally established. It would be hard to argue for natural resources that they didn't use like oil and mines, but the major port cities are a given.

Well this is an interesting narrative.  Experts estimate the total aboriginal population in the total geographical area of what is now know as Canada just prior to Columbus to be just under 1 million people, which is less than the aboriginal population today in Canada, then the overwhelming majority who died post-Colombus/Cabot were by disease.  Jacques Cartier estimated the aboriginal village Hochelaga he encountered in Montreal had about 1000 people.  But they deserve the whole island?  I say give them what they had, or a reasonably equal alternative location if there's a subdevelopment sitting on it.

Natives never saw nor stepped foot on nor even knew existed 99.999% of Canada's vast expanse.  They didn't even have horses or any domesticated  land transport until Europeans brought them.  But this is "their land".  It's all theirs.  They didn't even believe in land ownership, but it belongs to them.  A bunch of scattered small villages and clans here and there across a vast continent can claim it all theirs.  There were no borders or such thing as "Canada" or "US" before they came, just a bunch of wilderness and unaffiliated native groups/alliances fighting over the small bits of territory they knew existed.  Native groups routinely attacked each other, raped & pillaged, & stole each other's land & resources, but someone else does it to them & well omg i'm a victim.  They would have done the same or worse to us if they had the guns, but whitey was so evil.  They certainly don't "own" nor have any rightful claim to any major waterways, and they can still use them all today if they want to just like everyone else.  Natives don't even need a passport to cross into the USA just a status card, because the idea is "it's all their land and they don't recognize borders", what a bunch of BS.  There are different narratives here, but usually only 1 or 2 are considered so with most the truth is incomplete, I'm sure for myself as well.

Let's face it, we don't have to give them anything back, like every other invading army in the history of human civilization, but we do and should because we're compassionate and did make some mistakes and did steal some land & they suffer/ed.  Indian war paint imagery should be taken down from public spaces and not celebrated because people who wore it killed & raped & scalped some of my European ancestors blah blah like this is the PC mentality.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2018, 03:25:47 am »
It's astonishing how quickly you try to gloss over your initial statement. Oh well, whatever works for ya.

George Washington owned over 100 slaves when he died.  Where does it stop?  Rename the capital Spike Lee, D.C.?

Africans came out of the jungle with spears & their boobies hanging out, shat and pissed in the river, and sacrificed babies to the voodoo gods etc, so whitey called them savage animals with inferior brains/genes & worked them like cattle.  Probably logical to most people given what they knew at the time.  We now know better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIuDeoOERe0
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 03:32:16 am by Coonlight Graham »
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.