Author Topic: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A  (Read 579 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2018, 12:07:29 pm »
The only lasting consequence of this is as I said. It will **** a lot of people off, will diminish their sympathy for native and native causes, and play into the hands of the Trumps of the world.

As for my 'go to' rant, do you imagine it was a bunch of conservatives on city council that voted on this? Do you imagine it was conservative activists proposing it?

How the hell would this play into the hands of the Trump's of the world? If anyone is going to be pissed off it would be them. Trump probably would have created something that would have made residential school look like Sunday School had he have had the opportunity in those years.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2018, 12:16:36 pm »
What about if we had a dialogue about keeping it in return for doing something truly important for first Nations people?

Why the **** should we have to bribe some native activists in order to keep a statue to the founder of the nation?

Everyone knows the problems with natives are the damned reserves. They're designed for an eighteenth century people and most have no economic reason to exist. That gives their people nothing to do but sit around drink, fornicate, get into fights and trouble, and cash their monthly cheques. Nothing else matters until this is addressed.

As for history. I'm not into apologizing or making reparations for something someone did before I or even my ancestors were even here. The natives were overwhelmed by a more powerful group of newcomers like just just about every other people on the planet at one time or another. Get over it. They weren't treated nearly as badly as so many of those other peoples, who were annihilated, and no longer exist. Which, by the way, was how they treated their opponents when they conquered them.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2018, 12:20:12 pm »
How the hell would this play into the hands of the Trump's of the world?

Let's use the NFL for an example. This stupidass kneeling business has been pissing off the fans since it started. NFL attendance is down, as is viewership and merchandise sales, and their own polls say this is a major factor. Trump did not cause the anger at the kneeling but he's taking advantage of it to fan that anger and win over people who are pissed off at what they see as an unpatriotic attack. Trump is a divider, but he mostly takes advantages of schisms which were created by others. This is something that divides people along racial lines and he's happy to take advantage of that.

In terms of the Sir John A statue and other such nonsense, it pisses of patriots. Progressives sneer at patriotism, but a lot of people feel it nonetheless, despite all people like Trudeau tell them about what a shitty, horrible people we have always been up until his noble glittering ass came on the scene.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2018, 12:33:49 pm »
Neither am I really. BC would now be a US state if it hadn't been for MacDonald. Despite his faults, he is the closest thing Canada has to being a father of this country.
He is also being made the lighting rod for all the abuses that occurred under the residential school program long after he was dead.

Sir John A is being faulted for being a typical North American circa 1800's.  In 100 years people will tear down statues of Terry Fox because he used plastic bags at the grocery store.

These people are intent on slowing destroying western civilization because white people did what we realize now in hindsight was some really bad ****.  My great-great-great granddaddy Bartholomew probably slapped his wife for steering the ox too slowly, he's still a part of my DNA & i'm not going to take down his photo for it.

White westerners did and do some terrible stuff.  COMPARED TO WHO!??!?!?  Imperial China? Africans who would raid rival tribes, capture their men & **** their women & sell them to whitey for guns to go catch more slaves with?  Natives used to scalp victims, **** women and children, and **** in the river.  PC POLICE FML.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2018, 12:43:04 pm »
Sir John A is being faulted for being a typical North American circa 1800's.  In 100 years people will tear down statues of Terry Fox because he used plastic bags at the grocery store.

These people are intent on slowing destroying western civilization because white people did what we realize now in hindsight was some really bad ****.  My great-great-great granddaddy Bartholomew probably slapped his wife for steering the ox too slowly, he's still a part of my DNA & i'm not going to take down his photo for it.

White westerners did and do some terrible stuff.  COMPARED TO WHO!??!?!?  Imperial China? Africans who would raid rival tribes, capture their men & **** their women & sell them to whitey for guns to go catch more slaves with?  Natives used to scalp victims, **** women and children, and **** in the river.  PC POLICE FML.

So you're saying you disagree with people questioning the idea of building statues to celebrate people who did such things as you describe?

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2018, 12:51:29 pm »
Whitey stole native land and took some kids from their parents and accidentally brought disease that killed a bunch.  Big oops.  Whitey also brought them modern medicine, stable food supply, reading and writing, and delicious chicken mcnuggets. 

Give them more land by squaring their land claims out, give them another wad of cash, ensure equitable services if they so want, then call it square so we can have reconciliation and everyone can STFU and move on.  Then leave them alone, if they want to live in the middle of Nunavut with a subsistence economy, freedom to you, just don't come whining again that you're still poor.

Everyone crying about statues who gives a testicle, go get a job feed your damn kids.  Mark Manson says you only have so many fucks to give, use them wisely.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 02:09:25 am by Coonlight Graham »
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2018, 12:57:32 pm »
Whitey stole native land and took some kids from their parents and accidentally brought disease that killed a bunch.  Big oops.  Whitey also brought them modern medicine, stable food supply, reading and writing, and delicious chicken mcnuggets. 

Give them more land by squaring their land claims out, give them another wad of cash, ensure equitable services if they so want, then call it square so we can have reconciliation and everyone can STFU and move on.  Then leave them alone, if they want to live in the middle of Nunavut with a subsistence economy, freedom to you, just don't come whining again that you're still poor.

Everyone crying about statues who gives a testicle, go get a job feed your damn kids.  Mark Manson says who only have so many fucks to give, use them wisely.

It's astonishing how quickly you try to gloss over your initial statement. Oh well, whatever works for ya.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2018, 01:30:36 pm »
Give them more land by squaring their land claims out

Sure thing, they will take Montreal, Saint John, Saint Johns, Halifax, Quebec city, Vancouver, Victoria, and other natural waterways and harbors where they were originally established. It would be hard to argue for natural resources that they didn't use like oil and mines, but the major port cities are a given.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:41:28 pm by ?Impact »
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2018, 01:31:25 pm »
The statue won't disappear from the world.   It just won't be displayed as something to be revered.  Nothing wrong with taking it down and modernizing our history to include the unsavoury things that happened by the people who built the country.  The whitewashing occured long ago...   this is setting it right and acknowledging the flaws as well as the good.
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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2018, 01:32:42 pm »
As for my 'go to' rant, do you imagine it was a bunch of conservatives on city council that voted on this? Do you imagine it was conservative activists proposing it?
It was proposed by a group established by the city council and passed council 7 to 1 in favour. Are you saying there could only be one true conservative on the Victoria city council and the rest are extreme progressives and leftists?

Offline Omni

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2018, 01:32:48 pm »
Let's use the NFL for an example. This stupidass kneeling business has been pissing off the fans since it started. NFL attendance is down, as is viewership and merchandise sales, and their own polls say this is a major factor. Trump did not cause the anger at the kneeling but he's taking advantage of it to fan that anger and win over people who are pissed off at what they see as an unpatriotic attack. Trump is a divider, but he mostly takes advantages of schisms which were created by others. This is something that divides people along racial lines and he's happy to take advantage of that.

In terms of the Sir John A statue and other such nonsense, it pisses of patriots. Progressives sneer at patriotism, but a lot of people feel it nonetheless, despite all people like Trudeau tell them about what a shitty, horrible people we have always been up until his noble glittering ass came on the scene.

Those "stupidassess" knelt to bring attention to racial discrimination, especially by police. You seem to think merchandise sales is a more important issue.

Offline wilber

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2018, 02:24:22 pm »
It was proposed by a group established by the city council and passed council 7 to 1 in favour. Are you saying there could only be one true conservative on the Victoria city council and the rest are extreme progressives and leftists?

The lone dissenter did so because there had been no public consultation and he felt there should be.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2018, 02:27:53 pm »
The statue won't disappear from the world.   It just won't be displayed as something to be revered.  Nothing wrong with taking it down and modernizing our history to include the unsavoury things that happened by the people who built the country.  The whitewashing occured long ago...   this is setting it right and acknowledging the flaws as well as the good.

Don't you believe it. The statue is gone for good. It will sit in storage until people forget about it.

We are just trading someone's truth for someone else's truth when in fact both are true. You don't acknowledge flaws by making them disappear.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline the_squid

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2018, 02:46:01 pm »
Don't you believe it. The statue is gone for good. It will sit in storage until people forget about it.

Not at all.  You're just being silly.

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After the statue is removed the city says it will store it until it finds an appropriate way to give Macdonald's legacy context from a perspective of reconciliation.  https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/debate-flares-as-victoria-votes-to-remove-macdonald-statue-from-city-hall-1.4047105

It'll be in the museum or some such.   Statues are monuments, not museums.  Statues don't teach history.

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We are just trading someone's truth for someone else's truth when in fact both are true. You don't acknowledge flaws by making them disappear.

Not at all.  This guy says it well:

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https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/monuments-arent-museums-and-history-suffers-when-we-forget-that/

Leave aside, for the moment, the absurdity of thinking that no one would remember history or historical figures were it not for statues. Instead, understand that the monument’s very essence is not about recording history in the first place: they’re designed to shape our perceptions of history in very particular ways and for very particular purposes,  ranging from glorifying a political leader or set of ideologies, to providing future generations examples to emulate. Rather than recording history, we should think of monuments as themselves being part of history—and frequently a very problematic and distorted part of history, at that.
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Offline wilber

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Re: Victoria says good bye to Sir John A
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2018, 03:17:33 pm »
Not at all.  You're just being silly.

It'll be in the museum or some such.   Statues are monuments, not museums.  Statues don't teach history.

Not at all.  This guy says it well:

Actually statues do teach history. If they are any good, they show what someone looked like and are incentive to find out more about that person. They actually encourage the kind of discussion we are having about MacDonald right now, not keeping it out of sight, out of mind.

This isn't a statue glorifying a guy on a rampant charger, just a guy in a suit standing on the street.

Where is the city going to put this statue. They don't want people to see it, that's why they are taking it down. So where can they put it that no one will. It's gone unless they get someone else to take and display it.

One of the things I like about European cities is the history that is on public display and that includes statues of a lot of people with chequered pasts. They are there because they are an integral part of that country's history and what it became today, good and bad.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC