Author Topic: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?  (Read 2534 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2022, 12:16:45 am »
Everyone is eligible. 

Everyone gets it.

If you don’t need it, it’s taxed back.

I’m not sure why you have such difficulty with grasping concepts like this.  Have you ever read anything about it?  It doesn’t sound like you have…. You just argue against it out of some sort of principle.

I don’t like druggies.  Can’t stand those loser reprobates.  I also think druggies should get free drugs from the government because it helps society overall with things like lowering crime, prevention of overdoses that use up valuable medical resources, etc.   I acknowledge that the world shouldn’t revolve around what I find acceptable.  Sometimes the greater good means we hold our noses.

Or, you can be a jackass and rant about how lazy people shouldn’t get money, blah, blah.  And solve nothing.

How is giving every healthy working age person not working free money a good use of government resources?  What problem is that solving?  This is what I don't understand.  I'm not talking about people in university or whatnot, i'm talking about just someone who doesn't want to work.  It makes no sense.  It's a huge waste of money that could go towards other things, which has nothing to do with "principle".  It's just bad budget allocation.  What is the justification for the child of a kid getting it rather than giving that money to aboriginals or the disabled or whatnot?
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Online Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2022, 06:22:39 am »
1. How is giving every healthy working age person not working free money a good use of government resources?  What problem is that solving? 

2. This is what I don't understand.  I'm not talking about people in university or whatnot, i'm talking about just someone who doesn't want to work.  It makes no sense.  It's a huge waste of money that could go towards other things, which has nothing to do with "principle".  It's just bad budget allocation.  What is the justification for the child of a kid getting it rather than giving that money to aboriginals or the disabled or whatnot?
1. It goes with the absolute elimination of other programs and saves the money spent on those.  The original proposal was written by Hugh Segal (Conservative)

2. See #1

Related, but not the same, is MMT.  Printing money to be spent on worthy things...

Online Spike The Hike Shady

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9008
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2022, 08:43:11 am »
1. It goes with the absolute elimination of other programs and saves the money spent on those.  The original proposal was written by Hugh Segal (Conservative)

2. See #1

Related, but not the same, is MMT.  Printing money to be spent on worthy things...
The small savings on costs does not out weight the destructive nature of paying people not to work.
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9120
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2022, 10:28:07 am »
it's not paying them to not work - it's supporting them so they can get 'educated' and improve their quality of life. I found the stats for Cdn illiteracy rates near 50% just ... disturbing.

It is for those who choose not to work.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
Dumb Dumb x 1 View List

Online Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2022, 11:26:46 am »
The small savings on costs does not out weight the destructive nature of paying people not to work.

Did you read Segal's paper ?  Or is this a gut economic assessment ?
Winner Winner x 1 View List

Offline eyeball

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1140
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2022, 11:35:25 am »
It is for those who choose not to work.
Maybe the way to break this impasse is that recipients volunteer some of their time to something that needs doing.  I think it would have to be really loosely structured to work however almost to the point of being on a honour system.  It could be for just about anything.  Showing up at food bank on occasion, picking up garbage or just helping a senior now and then. Perhaps there could be something like an online social credit registry where recipients of volunteerism or volunteers themselves could leave a record of their efforts.

The value of volunteer labour to the economy is in the billions and worth around $25 - $30 per hour these days.  Such a system could conceivably even allow a person to get ahead if the more they worked the more they received and it also provided a gateway to training and education. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 11:38:43 am by eyeball »

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5630
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2022, 02:34:19 pm »
Did you read Segal's paper ?  Or is this a gut economic assessment ?

It’s all emotional from them.  They don’t want to see lazy people being rewarded.  They ignore that this happens already….
Like Like x 1 Disagree Disagree x 1 View List

Online Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2022, 02:54:09 pm »
It’s all emotional from them.  They don’t want to see lazy people being rewarded.  They ignore that this happens already….

"I would pay a cop to follow every welfare recipient around to make sure they are not cheating"
"I would pay $1000 a month to drug test a welfare recipient to make sure they are not cheating"

These are vanity social programs that enforce the world view of constipated Protestants... at least my best guess...
Funny Funny x 1 View List

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2022, 03:06:44 pm »
1. It goes with the absolute elimination of other programs and saves the money spent on those.  The original proposal was written by Hugh Segal (Conservative)

Why not roll all programs into 1 program, with eligibility requirements?  How is tax money saved when more people aren't working and they are creating no net tax dollar revenue for the government?  It's a terrible policy.

"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2022, 03:11:38 pm »
Maybe the way to break this impasse is that recipients volunteer some of their time to something that needs doing.  I think it would have to be really loosely structured to work however almost to the point of being on a honour system.

An honour system at a large society-wide level doesn't work.  It is a naive suggestion without any evidence.  Nobody would pay their taxes if it was based on the honour system.  There are too many cheats out there.  Many people act on their rational self-interest, not everyone is a saint.  The government deals with a lot of fraud by citizens every day in virtually every program that deal with money.  Tax fraud, EI fraud, CERB fraud, disability fraud, you name it there's fraud.  People won't even obey the parking laws unless tickets are given out, and even then many don't obey and roll the dice.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Online Michael Hardner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12467
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2022, 03:12:42 pm »
Why not roll all programs into 1 program, with eligibility requirements?  How is tax money saved when more people aren't working and they are creating no net tax dollar revenue for the government?  It's a terrible policy.

That is indeed a watered down flavour of UBI.

Tax money is saved because you don't have a bureaucracy to monitor and distribute.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2022, 03:19:06 pm »
It’s all emotional from them.  They don’t want to see lazy people being rewarded.  They ignore that this happens already….

It's not just about "grrr lazy people".  Why would you incentivize and in fact fully subsidize no economic production and free permanent vacations for anyone who wants it?  It's insane.  It's such a dumb idea that it's laughable.  If Canada implemented this policy we would be the laughing stock of the world, our GDP would plummet, the TSX would plummet, tax revenues would plummet, refugees from around the world looking for a free income would choose to come to Canada over any other safe country (I don't blame them!), working people would resent the people on vacation, it would be chaos.  It's a totally irrational policy.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2022, 03:21:37 pm »
That is indeed a watered down flavour of UBI.

Tax money is saved because you don't have a bureaucracy to monitor and distribute.

But what is the net saving on tax revenues/expenditures if less people are working, generating income and GDP, and thus paying net taxes?  The dollar would decrease in value if GDP and TSX go down.  Some bureaucracy to monitor and distribute then becomes a good investment.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline Queefer Sutherland

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10186
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2022, 03:28:07 pm »
"I would pay a cop to follow every welfare recipient around to make sure they are not cheating"
"I would pay $1000 a month to drug test a welfare recipient to make sure they are not cheating"

These are vanity social programs that enforce the world view of constipated Protestants... at least my best guess...

What is this based on?  Who has said anything remotely like this?  Not I.

It's absolutely impossible to 100% properly monitor every government program.  I've never said I wanted to do this.  What I said is that you need to randomly audit people to keep people honest.  That's what they do at CRA.  And when people are even caught doing fraud the gov rarely does anything legally, they mostly just threaten legal action to scare people into complying or not repeating the action.  If the government took to court everyone who broke the law they would be clogging the courts up with people.  The amount of illegal fraud the government catches is vast, they don't have the money to prosecute or catch everyone.  In that sense I agree, but you have to think of cost-effective ways of trying to save money and keep the programs legitimate.
"Nipples is one of the great minds of our time!" - Bubbermiley

Offline wilber

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9120
Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2022, 06:25:02 pm »
Maybe the way to break this impasse is that recipients volunteer some of their time to something that needs doing.  I think it would have to be really loosely structured to work however almost to the point of being on a honour system.  It could be for just about anything.  Showing up at food bank on occasion, picking up garbage or just helping a senior now and then. Perhaps there could be something like an online social credit registry where recipients of volunteerism or volunteers themselves could leave a record of their efforts.

The value of volunteer labour to the economy is in the billions and worth around $25 - $30 per hour these days.  Such a system could conceivably even allow a person to get ahead if the more they worked the more they received and it also provided a gateway to training and education.

So you are saying we should pay people to volunteer? They wouldn't be volunteers then.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC