Author Topic: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?  (Read 1907 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2022, 03:36:43 pm »
1. 2.  That's a service that costs money and that some people don't care about.  They used to drug test welfare recipients but that's gone by the wayside...  What is a higher priority - morality or efficiency ?  Pick one only.

Fundamental justice in our society is more important than efficiency or cost.  Courts are expensive too but we pay for them, same with CRA audits.  Do you also not care if people properly pay their taxes or not?

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3. Because I don't care what they do as long as they don't cause harm.  The 'welfare bum' is a myth as far as I can see, sorry.

I don't care what people do, but i do care how and where taxpayer money is allocated, which can "cause harm".  Giving away free money to not work is about the least efficient/useful thing I could think of.  If you have evidence that people don't commit welfare or social service fraud please feel free to post the evidence.  My evidence is a country filled with people on CERB while employers can't find anyone to fill jobs, which has contributed to inflation and lost GDP and tax dollars while contributing to our deficit/debt.

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4. Yeah I read every bit.  You seem to find it difficult to understand that I don't care about people receiving free money - I don't take that personally.  I get that you do and that's fair.  More people feel like you than me.

If you don't care about unproductive and inefficient misallocation of taxpayer dollars that's up to you obviously.  If more people in Canada agree with you than I on this issue then they want to make Canada a worse country, which I fundamentally disagree with.  Popular doesn't mean right.  I'm sure not having to work and getting free money is a great idea for many, sounds good to me too! But I wouldn't undermine the country's finances and economic output or take tax money from more important programs etc for it.

You again for the 2nd time haven't answered why you would allocate taxpayer money for healthy working age people not to work rather than invest that funding in healthcare/longterm care, homelessness, education, police reform/accountability, indigenous communities, or any number of areas where people actually could use the money.  Care to please answer this question?
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2022, 09:06:31 pm »
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Öwhy you would allocate taxpayer money for healthy working age people not to work

Because COVID comes along and puts them out of work.  With UBI, they can simply go on with their lives, albeit at a subsistence living, rather than the job they held as COVID hit. 

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rather than invest that funding in healthcare/longterm care

We already do.  Maybe with UBI less people would be unhealthy and need to use the medical system.  Itís not an either/or proposition.

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homelessness

Why would someone be homeless if they get enough UBI to rent a place?

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education

With a UBI, university students wouldnít be drowning in debt as soon as they get out of school.

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indigenous communities

UBI eliminates the need for indigenous-specific money.  They would just be on the same system.

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Ö or any number of areas where people actually could use the money.

Yes!  People can USE money!!  Hence, UBI.

We take from those who can afford to pay more taxes and we give that to everyone.  Those who donít need it, pay it back in taxes.
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Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2022, 06:17:25 am »
1. Fundamental justice in our society is more important than efficiency or cost.   
2. Do you also not care if people properly pay their taxes or not?
3.If you have evidence that people don't commit welfare or social service fraud please feel free to post the evidence. 
4. You again for the 2nd time haven't answered why you would allocate taxpayer money for healthy working age people not to work rather than invest that funding in healthcare/longterm care, homelessness, education, police reform/accountability, indigenous communities, or any number of areas where people actually could use the money.  Care to please answer this question?
1. Your words reveal your ideaology.  'Fundamental justice' ... all of it comes at a cost.  Do you want 100% 'justice' ?  The costs are prohibitive.  This is the honour system, albeit in an extreme version.
2. Why don't we have 100% audits ?  It is about what the system can bear, including politically.
3. Like I say, you would rather pay someone to check than let people get away with it - even if letting cheaters go costs less.
4. It's not an either/or.  Health costs are reduced by increased UBI.  But also I didn't say I support UBI - I'm just discussing it.  I DO think that old ideas of work and fairness need to die in order for us to deal with 'the end of work'.  And I am also sensing an increasing appetite for wholesale economic review and restructuring, ie. flat taxes, UBI, and so on.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2022, 03:33:16 pm »
1. Your words reveal your ideaology.  'Fundamental justice' ... all of it comes at a cost.  Do you want 100% 'justice' ?  The costs are prohibitive.  This is the honour system, albeit in an extreme version.

What's my ideology?  That I believe it is unjust and unethical for healthy working people to pay for the incomes of others who simply don't want to work?  If so, you also reveal your ideology by disagreeing with me.

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2. Why don't we have 100% audits ?  It is about what the system can bear, including politically.

Yes there are some cost factors obviously.  Even now with the programs we don't have 100% audits.  But there should be some to give incentive for the dishonest to be honest.

The system can't bear potentially millions of potential workers in Canada not working while the rest pay for it.  It's a ridiculous policy proposal.  So ridiculous that it's a non-starter for anyone competent at governing.  The Wynne government put in a pilot project, we know full well that gov was incompetent & living in fantasy land.  It is truly one of the worst policy ideas I've ever heard.  It would very likely cause work shortages and inflation, it's ridiculous.

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4. It's not an either/or.  Health costs are reduced by increased UBI.  But also I didn't say I support UBI - I'm just discussing it.  I DO think that old ideas of work and fairness need to die in order for us to deal with 'the end of work'.  And I am also sensing an increasing appetite for wholesale economic review and restructuring, ie. flat taxes, UBI, and so on.

What is the evidence health costs are reduced by UBI?  How do you know people just won't get fatter laying around more, like they have during COVID?  Everyone poor who doesn't make a basic amount of money to live is already entitled to welfare, and people who lose their job are entitled to EI, and the elderly are entitled to OAS/GIS etc.  If you want to reform those programs a bit ok that's fair.  If you want to pay some well-off person's kid to lay around all summer because they don't want to work, no I don't agree.  I have no issue reforming our systems to fill any gaps for those truly in need.  There's a way to reach them while not rewarding and incentivizing and subsidizing low or zero productivity.

If "the end of work" occurs, which it hasn't yet, then we can deal with that then.  As I said, if you honestly can't find a job yes I agree you should have a basic income.  But if you don't even want to honestly look then why would I subsidize your long-term vacation by working my butt off to pay for it?  This is literally stealing the fruits of my labour from me and giving it to someone else without my consent and without need or reasonable justification.  It is unjust and unethical.

Also, yes you do support UBI, you said "more people agree with me".  Please stop pretending you're a neutral arbiter on all issues, this is obviously not true.  It's ok you have taken a position.  What do you fear by getting off the fence?  A thesis means taking a position.
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Online Based Shady

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2022, 03:49:35 pm »
Paying healthy people to not work us about as destructive as it gets.  If your goal is to create generations of people without any kind of work ethic, lazy, uninspired, and completely dependent on government youíve got a heckuva policy.  This UBI nonsense is possibly THE dumbest idea regressives have ever had.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2022, 03:56:21 pm »
Paying healthy people to not work us about as destructive as it gets.  If your goal is to create generations of people without any kind of work ethic, lazy, uninspired, and completely dependent on government youíve got a heckuva policy.  This UBI nonsense is possibly THE dumbest idea regressives have ever had.

UBI is the best policy in the entire universe to take care of people who are sick and canít work, lost their jobs, or are going to school for transitioning to new and better jobs.

Thatís like, my opinion, man.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2022, 04:59:18 pm »
UBI is the best policy in the entire universe to take care of people who are sick and canít work, lost their jobs, or are going to school for transitioning to new and better jobs.

Ok then have a program for those people and leave out people who don't need it.
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Online Based Shady

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2022, 05:10:00 pm »
UBI is the best policy in the entire universe to take care of people who are sick and canít work, lost their jobs, or are going to school for transitioning to new and better jobs.

Thatís like, my opinion, man.
I understand your desire to help those individuals.  However, there is a way to do that without a universal program.  Usually when you subsidize something, you encourage it and get more of it.  We do not want to subsidize or normalize not working.  Itís not good for people.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2022, 07:03:27 pm »
Ok then have a program for those people and leave out people who don't need it.

UBI would do that.  People who donít need it have it taxed back.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2022, 07:04:20 pm »
I understand your desire to help those individuals.  However, there is a way to do that without a universal program.  Usually when you subsidize something, you encourage it and get more of it.  We do not want to subsidize or normalize not working.  Itís not good for people.

We already do with different social welfare programs. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2022, 07:20:03 pm »
UBI would do that.  People who donít need it have it taxed back.

What if they spend it and don't have the money come tax time?  Then you have to pay people to work on the file to claw it back and slap liens on homes and whatnot.

What's wrong with my idea of combining all money handout programs into 1 program under 1 level of government with a bunch of reasons people can be eligible? People apply online and are approved or denied.  Pretty simple.

One of your arguments is COVID payments.  Why is that a large governmental problem to solve?  The government created the CERB in less than a month.  And pandemics are a once-in-a-century phenomena.  You can just roll it into a part of EI from now.  Pretty simple.

What problem is UBI trying to solve?  I don't understand.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2022, 08:34:07 pm »
What if they spend it and don't have the money come tax time?  Then you have to pay people to work on the file to claw it back and slap liens on homes and whatnot.


Yeah. Just like they do now.

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What's wrong with my idea of combining all money handout programs into 1 program under 1 level of government with a bunch of reasons people can be eligible? People apply online and are approved or denied.  Pretty simple.

Yeah, like a UBI.

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One of your arguments is COVID payments.  Why is that a large governmental problem to solve?  The government created the CERB in less than a month.  And pandemics are a once-in-a-century phenomena.  You can just roll it into a part of EI from now.  Pretty simple.

It cost the government billions to do this and was inefficient and, at times, ineffective and overly broad.  It wouldnít have been needed at all if there was a UBI.

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What problem is UBI trying to solve?  I don't understand.

Ending poverty.  Why is that so difficult to understand?

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2022, 08:43:13 pm »
We already do with different social welfare programs.

If you're on welfare and you refuse to honestly even look for work when you're healthy and capable of it you don't deserve society's financial support.  Welfare is a social safety net program for people who don't have a job, can't find work but aren't eligible for EI etc.

I know someone who is a lazy alcoholic a-hole who has spent most of their working life unemployed on welfare and spends their days drinking and doing zero housework.  The best thing that ever happened to them was the government started making it mandatory to look for work unless they were disabled or something, so they finally had to go to work and actually contribute to society and get out of the funk they were in.  If you support enabling people like this you're doing them harm as an enabler rather than being compassionate in any way whatsoever.  It's actually cruel and should be labeled as a less severe form of abuse.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2022, 08:49:07 pm »
Yeah, like a UBI.

No, stop arguing in bad faith.

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Ending poverty.  Why is that so difficult to understand?

How will this end poverty any more than improving other current programs?  This certainly won't end homelessness.  Homeless people are usually qualified for welfare but they are usually addicts who spend their money on their addiction so they can't keep an apartment or pay bills properly.

It may indeed help poverty if everyone gets a cheque and have it clawed back at tax time, but also create other problems for others like debt.  I'm glad you seem to agree that at least some people shouldn't be eligible.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2022, 10:06:15 pm »
No, stop arguing in bad faith.

How will this end poverty any more than improving other current programs?  This certainly won't end homelessness.  Homeless people are usually qualified for welfare but they are usually addicts who spend their money on their addiction so they can't keep an apartment or pay bills properly.

It may indeed help poverty if everyone gets a cheque and have it clawed back at tax time, but also create other problems for others like debt.  I'm glad you seem to agree that at least some people shouldn't be eligible.

Everyone is eligible. 

Everyone gets it.

If you donít need it, itís taxed back.

Iím not sure why you have such difficulty with grasping concepts like this.  Have you ever read anything about it?  It doesnít sound like you haveÖ. You just argue against it out of some sort of principle.

I donít like druggies.  Canít stand those loser reprobates.  I also think druggies should get free drugs from the government because it helps society overall with things like lowering crime, prevention of overdoses that use up valuable medical resources, etc.   I acknowledge that the world shouldnít revolve around what I find acceptable.  Sometimes the greater good means we hold our noses.

Or, you can be a jackass and rant about how lazy people shouldnít get money, blah, blah.  And solve nothing.
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