Author Topic: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?  (Read 1907 times)

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Offline eyeball

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2022, 01:51:10 am »
wouldn't outlawing in-camera lobbying have a free-for-all session of bribery?
It should prevent it actually. It simply means no one gets to have a meeting with a public official behind a closed door and the meeting is open to the public. in-camera is a legal latin term where camera means chambers. You might see the term used in a municipal meeting where a council is faced with a heated or contentious issue and someone makes a motion to move the discussion in-camera. At this point the public is asked to leave before the discussion carries on.   

Everyone seems to focus on outcomes when fighting over what to do about economic inequity. I think the bigger problem is closer to the beginning of the process that results in wealth or the lack thereof.  This process of course often involves meetings between stakeholders and public officials. These should never be secret when there is a public interest at stake.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 02:02:48 am by eyeball »
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Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2022, 02:12:34 am »
It should prevent it actually. It simply means no one gets to have a meeting with a public official behind a closed door and the meeting is open to the public. in-camera is a legal latin term where camera means chambers. You might see the term used in a municipal meeting where a council is faced with a heated or contentious issue and someone makes a motion to move the discussion in-camera. At this point the public is asked to leave before the discussion carries on.   

Everyone seems to focus on outcomes when fighting over what to do about economic inequity. I think the bigger problem is closer to the beginning of the process that results in wealth or the lack thereof.  This process of course often involves meetings between stakeholders and public officials. These should never be secret when there is a public interest at stake.
ahh! totally different meaning for a FN 'meeting'- literally means ' a camera' is on during the meeting, lol, k. Thank you!
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Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2022, 06:17:50 am »
I'm ok with a hybrid of the programs we have now and a UBI program.  You can consolidate most of our social income programs into 1 guaranteed income program, however you also need to maintain eligibility requirements on most of them.

Show up to the UBI office and claim one of:
_ i'm old with no money
- i can't find employment/enough employment
- i'm disabled/sick
- I just had a baby and need parental leave
(Among other reasons)

Then you employ investigators to randomly sample applicants to make sure their claims are accurate and aren't fraud.  The amount of EI fraud for instance must be insane, because you're supposed to actively look for work while on EI and not simply sit at home, which they don't check up on.  If you're healthy and working age, there's jobs available, and refuse to work you don't deserve anything.

That's not UBI at all, that is welfare.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 09:27:37 am »
That's not UBI at all, that is welfare.

Ok then I don't agree with UBI, it sucks.  Giving money to people no questions asked to those who are simply lazy and refuse to work is one of the worst ideas i've ever heard. 

Doug Ford scrapped the UBI pilot project in ON that the Liberals started.  #hero
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Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2022, 09:46:25 am »
Ok then I don't agree with UBI, it sucks.  Giving money to people no questions asked to those who are simply lazy and refuse to work is one of the worst ideas i've ever heard. 

Ok - well that's the big pushback on this idea obviously.

But the thing is - at SOME point - work will stop.  There will be virtually no work.  And that point won't come up immediately but gradually.  Until that point, work will gradually decline and that is where we are now.

People are saying - I take care of my grandma... I am important to my neighbourhood... I write music and play it on the corner for passers-by. 

Isn't that worth something ?

Of course I am picking easy examples for right-wing folks to potshot but try to empathize here that "work" is becoming more and more like "make work" and at some point we need to re-examine the concept of value and drop the "work as punishment" ethic.



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Doug Ford scrapped the UBI pilot project in ON that the Liberals started.  #hero

The Liberals have a funny relationship with UBI.  I am convinced they do not want to implement in, but do want to reap political rewards for talking about it.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2022, 10:06:55 am »
Ok - well that's the big pushback on this idea obviously.

But the thing is - at SOME point - work will stop.  There will be virtually no work.  And that point won't come up immediately but gradually.  Until that point, work will gradually decline and that is where we are now.

People are saying - I take care of my grandma... I am important to my neighbourhood... I write music and play it on the corner for passers-by. 

Isn't that worth something ?

Of course I am picking easy examples for right-wing folks to potshot but try to empathize here that "work" is becoming more and more like "make work" and at some point we need to re-examine the concept of value and drop the "work as punishment" ethic.
Work isn't punishment.  You get money for work.  You need work for the economy and society to function in any way whatsoever.

If there's no work or you can't get enough work my suggestions apply.  Caregiver benefits are eligible under EI benefits right now and have been for many years.  "I am important to my neighbourhood" doesn't make any sense.  If you're a musician and like busking that's a job.  If anyone likes your music they'll pay you money to play.

What we maybe should think about is paying parents to raise their children before school age, and paying for caregiving the elderly.  What used to be "women's work" has real economic value and doesn't need to be done just by women.
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Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2022, 10:16:10 am »
We did a lot for lobbying by taking a lot of the money out of politics.

'Outlaw' in-camera discussion ?  I'm starting to warm to it.  How about facilitate public policy discussion but with representatives of stakeholders ?

Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2022, 10:20:50 am »
Work isn't punishment.  You get money for work.  You need work for the economy and society to function in any way whatsoever.

Ok, so you have identified that the economy is not an execution of collective moral activity. 

If there were a way to pay people to do nothing - would you be against that ?  You DID use the term 'lazy' which is a moralistic take.

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If there's no work or you can't get enough work my suggestions apply.

Ok.  The devil is in the details about refusing "suitable" work but that exists today. 

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What if you  Caregiver benefits are eligible under EI benefits right now and have been for many years.  "I am important to my neighbourhood" doesn't make any sense.  If you're a musician and like busking that's a job.  If anyone likes your music they'll pay you money to play.

If they don't - shouldn't we subsidize good music ?  Hint: we do now.

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What we maybe should think about is paying parents to raise their children before school age, and paying for caregiving the elderly.  What used to be "women's work" has real economic value and doesn't need to be done just by women.

Interesting...

I am not disagreeing with you but simply exploring the edge cases of the principles (sound though they may be) that you have expounded on.  Really just want to find out what the objections are to "free money" if they are not moral...

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2022, 10:50:37 am »
Ok, so you have identified that the economy is not an execution of collective moral activity. 

If there were a way to pay people to do nothing - would you be against that ?  You DID use the term 'lazy' which is a moralistic take.

Paying (incentivizing) people to do nothing is not a productive use of government resources.  We're already running deficits before COVID hit.

Everyone needs income in order to live.  Food, shelter, clothes etc takes money.  If you're a healthy adult of working age and aren't making your own money through your own labour to provide your own income then you are literally relying on the labour of others to provide you income to survive via welfare/UBI whatever.  Taxes come from the private sector which is money derived from real economic activity (work).  It is a moral argument to say that we should take money by force from working people (tax them) and give that money to people who just don't want to work for whatever reason they please.  What is the moral or functional basis for this?  How is this fair for the working people to subsidize the rest that don't?  Especially when that tax money can be put towards other social programs that would actually help people with real need, like the healthcare system or long-term care.

If you're a adult and you depend on someone else for your income (besides possibly your spouse) then you are a dependent, you are essentially a child.  You are not an independent, self-functioning member of society.  You're a mooch.  This is not behaviour worth subsidizing or incentivizing.

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Ok.  The devil is in the details about refusing "suitable" work but that exists today. 
"Suitable work" is work that is "below" people's standards that can't find work in their field or near their house you mean?  It's far more economically productive for an unemployed accountant to take a job at Walmart than be on the public dole.  It's a bit different with EI because people say into EI, it's an insurance program.

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If they don't - shouldn't we subsidize good music ?  Hint: we do now.

We can subsidize the arts, sure.  But there are some limits.  Paying someone a full income do something that has little or no economic value should be carefully considered.  It might be valuable, it might be a waste of resources.  We simply don't have the money to pay tons of people to play music on the street when we have serious problems in healthcare and housing etc.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2022, 10:52:10 am »
We did a lot for lobbying by taking a lot of the money out of politics.

'Outlaw' in-camera discussion ?  I'm starting to warm to it.  How about facilitate public policy discussion but with representatives of stakeholders ?

Sure, but it should be public and on the record.  "In-camera" (what a convenient term they use LOL) is where all the dirty deals go down.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2022, 11:17:28 am »
I used to think the idea had some merit, but seeing how CERB was abused has changed my mind.

 -k

We’ll just have other CERBs that get abused.  At least with a UBI, it will save us from creating new bureaucracy to hand out money for short term projects.  CERB wouldn’t have been necessary. 


Offline eyeball

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2022, 11:43:27 am »
We did a lot for lobbying by taking a lot of the money out of politics.

'Outlaw' in-camera discussion ?  I'm starting to warm to it.  How about facilitate public policy discussion but with representatives of stakeholders ?
Whatever you like, just so long as decision makers and stakeholders are unable to go off by themselves to hold exclusive discussions amongst themselves - not on public business.

Lobby all you like to your heart's contents but just not in secret.  Its an elegant simple solution really, it doesn't require changing the constitution or big sweeping changes to how we govern ourselves we'd only need to amend the Lobbying Act by adding the no in-camera principle.

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The Lobbying Act is based on four key principles.

1. Free and open access to government is an important matter of public interest.
2. Lobbying public office holders is a legitimate activity.
3. It is desirable that public office holders and the general public be able to know who is engaged in lobbying activities.
4. The system of registration of paid lobbyists should not impede free and open access to government.

The Act applies to individuals who are paid to lobby. People who lobby on a voluntary basis are not required to register.

https://lobbycanada.gc.ca/en/rules/the-lobbying-act/
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Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2022, 12:41:10 pm »
Paying (incentivizing) people to do nothing is not a productive use of government resources.  We're already running deficits before COVID hit.

The UBI case is that removing checks pays for itself in terms of reduced government services.

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   You're a mooch. 

Yeah, so it IS a moral thing.  If somebody gets free $ from the government what do you care really ?

Calling someone a mooch to me says you feel like people must work even if there is no work to be done.

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"Suitable work" is work that is "below" people's standards that can't find work in their field or near their house you mean?

Yes.

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It's far more economically productive for an unemployed accountant to take a job at Walmart than be on the public dole.  It's a bit different with EI because people say into EI, it's an insurance program.

Would you take any work assigned to you if you couldn't find a job and had to take government money ?

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We can subsidize the arts, sure.  But there are some limits.  Paying someone a full income do something that has little or no economic value should be carefully considered.  It might be valuable, it might be a waste of resources.  We simply don't have the money to pay tons of people to play music on the street when we have serious problems in healthcare and housing etc.

Assessing value is tricky though.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2022, 01:36:10 pm »
The UBI case is that removing checks pays for itself in terms of reduced government services.

The checks are necessary to ensure fundamental fairness/justice in our society.

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Yeah, so it IS a moral thing.  If somebody gets free $ from the government what do you care really ?

Calling someone a mooch to me says you feel like people must work even if there is no work to be done.

I don't know of a government policy that isn't based on morality.  I care because it would harm our economy to have people doing nothing.  I care because why would you or I want to work and then have the government take our hard-earned money and give it to others with no net benefits to society (again, GDP loss) and a lot of detriment to those subsidizing them (taxpayers), not to mention detriment to all those people waiting for MRI's and longterm spaces etc where that funding isn't going because someone wants to spend their days making bad flower paintings on their porch.  Can you please answer why you would you give taxpayer money to people who just don't want to work instead of to healthcare, education etc?

If there is no work available I have no issue giving people a livable income, but that isn't UBI that's basically EI.  You didn't listen to much of what I said.  If you're a healthy adult of working age and you don't work and live off the income of others you're a mooch and a dependent, a child essentially.  It's no different than a 35 year old unemployed person living with their parents and paying no room and board.  Mooch, social leech, call it what you will.  These people are not pulling their weight in society.  They are a net drag on the economy for no good reason.  People work to eat and you shouldn't expect someone else to pay your way for you. An adult shouldn't be treated like an 10 year old.

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Would you take any work assigned to you if you couldn't find a job and had to take government money ?

If I had the choice i'd probably take the government money, and so would most people, which is exactly why you need program requirements to prevent this.
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Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2022, 02:14:24 pm »
1. The checks are necessary to ensure fundamental fairness/justice in our society.

2. I don't know of a government policy that isn't based on morality.  I care because it would harm our economy to have people doing nothing.

3. I care because why would you or I want to work and then have the government take our hard-earned money and give it to others with no net benefits to society (again, GDP loss) and a lot of detriment to those subsidizing them (taxpayers), not to mention detriment to all those people waiting for MRI's and longterm spaces etc where that funding isn't going because someone wants to spend their days making bad flower paintings on their porch. 

Can you please answer why you would you give taxpayer money to people who just don't want to work instead of to healthcare, education etc?

4. You didn't listen to much of what I said.   


1. 2.  That's a service that costs money and that some people don't care about.  They used to drug test welfare recipients but that's gone by the wayside...  What is a higher priority - morality or efficiency ?  Pick one only.

3. Because I don't care what they do as long as they don't cause harm.  The 'welfare bum' is a myth as far as I can see, sorry.

4. Yeah I read every bit.  You seem to find it difficult to understand that I don't care about people receiving free money - I don't take that personally.  I get that you do and that's fair.  More people feel like you than me.
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