Author Topic: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?  (Read 1907 times)

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Offline Ginxa22

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UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« on: January 12, 2022, 12:42:13 am »
I like the idea of UBI (universal basic income) since I think it would help 'raise' the poor. I only think that it should be used for a person to get their GED then 2 yrs college. Then go get a job, work a year or two, and go to University if they want or add more skills. They'd be more financially secure and improve their quality of life. Others talk about UBI but as if it's to be non-ending. I don't agree. Your thoughts?
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Offline Dia

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2022, 08:45:36 am »
Why not just free education, rather than having a short term UBI.
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Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2022, 09:23:52 am »


Like "Defund the Police" - the term Universal Basic Income and its variants suffers from what I will call "epistemic erosion".

As soon as a term enters the digisphere - discussion eats away at it until its meaning becomes vague.  This process makes it impossible to move forward but easier to start fights over so it's perfect for online.

The Liberals would love to get credit for introducing 'UBI' while actually just beefing up welfare a smidgeon.  Real UBI is hella expensive. 

Do you want to do it ?

Do you want to replan our entire economy ?  Do you want to open up all the options that may be involved including increasing or elimination immigration - subsidizing industry ... etc. etc.

I read a lot of economics, political economics from all over the spectrum and nothing proposed recently has come close to trying such an approach.
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Online Based Shady

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2022, 10:31:08 am »
I think UBI encourages people not to work, which is a detriment to society.  Things like welfare and disability could be adjusted so that increases to these would be targeted to people who need them.  Not universally applied like UBI.

Offline wilber

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2022, 07:54:42 pm »
Not a fan. We need programs that reward people for working even if it means subsidizing their wages. We have a shortage of workers, why are we talking about paying people not to work?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 07:57:08 pm by wilber »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2022, 04:42:49 pm »
I used to think the idea had some merit, but seeing how CERB was abused has changed my mind.

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Offline eyeball

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2022, 06:25:06 pm »
I thought it might fly but my sense that redistributing power is the key towards people meeting their own needs has reasserted itself - the only way I see power ever being redistributed is by outlawing the in-camera lobbying of public officials.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2022, 06:37:57 pm »
I'm ok with a hybrid of the programs we have now and a UBI program.  You can consolidate most of our social income programs into 1 guaranteed income program, however you also need to maintain eligibility requirements on most of them.

Show up to the UBI office and claim one of:
_ i'm old with no money
- i can't find employment/enough employment
- i'm disabled/sick
- I just had a baby and need parental leave
(Among other reasons)

Then you employ investigators to randomly sample applicants to make sure their claims are accurate and aren't fraud.  The amount of EI fraud for instance must be insane, because you're supposed to actively look for work while on EI and not simply sit at home, which they don't check up on.  If you're healthy and working age, there's jobs available, and refuse to work you don't deserve anything.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 06:40:23 pm by Nipples Von Graham »
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Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2022, 12:45:30 am »
Why not just free education, rather than having a short term UBI.
  free education would be fantastic especially getting a GED. Many doors would be opened to planning a great future. Definitely got wonder how those other nations manage that and the Q's - how are teachers and professors getting paid? don't think it's doable with Cdn govt when there's officials who 'resent' idea of getting any type of 'easy' road to better life.
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Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2022, 12:50:14 am »

Like "Defund the Police" - the term Universal Basic Income and its variants suffers from what I will call "epistemic erosion".

As soon as a term enters the digisphere - discussion eats away at it until its meaning becomes vague.  This process makes it impossible to move forward but easier to start fights over so it's perfect for online.

The Liberals would love to get credit for introducing 'UBI' while actually just beefing up welfare a smidgeon.  Real UBI is hella expensive. 

Do you want to do it ?

Do you want to replan our entire economy ?  Do you want to open up all the options that may be involved including increasing or elimination immigration - subsidizing industry ... etc. etc.

I read a lot of economics, political economics from all over the spectrum and nothing proposed recently has come close to trying such an approach.
I'd love to see our nation do 'better' at resolving homelessness and poverty outright. Nobody should have to live in financial hardship. I'd love to see our society 'evolve' into something - fantastic that has '99.9% excellent' quality of of life for ALL Cdns vs this 'same ole, same ole, keep the status quo or 'grow' the hardships on the poor, tear down homeless camps, toss them in the cold, close the food kitchens' mentality. Creeps me out.
'personal development can start with learning to grow your Knowledge from Ordinary, to Extraordinary'

Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2022, 12:52:50 am »
I think UBI encourages people not to work, which is a detriment to society.  Things like welfare and disability could be adjusted so that increases to these would be targeted to people who need them.  Not universally applied like UBI.
I agree hence why I said, it should only be applicable to a time limit so one can get their GED and 2 yrs college. After graduation, they can get a job, save  $$ and got to university if they want, paid by themselves. I like that the 'past' experiments' were a success though.
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Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2022, 12:54:28 am »
Not a fan. We need programs that reward people for working even if it means subsidizing their wages. We have a shortage of workers, why are we talking about paying people not to work?
it's not paying them to not work - it's supporting them so they can get 'educated' and improve their quality of life. I found the stats for Cdn illiteracy rates near 50% just ... disturbing.
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Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2022, 12:58:14 am »
I used to think the idea had some merit, but seeing how CERB was abused has changed my mind.

 -k
I don't see why the govt did not have better overall controls in place to prevent the $$ program abuses. It definitely was not surprising especially done by those who didn't need it - hopefully they got royally dinged by CRA? or maybe it was planned (for families of MPs) for 'enrichment'. here I always thought govt would have the 'smartest' hands on deck especially with OUR tax $$.
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Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2022, 01:00:49 am »
I thought it might fly but my sense that redistributing power is the key towards people meeting their own needs has reasserted itself - the only way I see power ever being redistributed is by outlawing the in-camera lobbying of public officials.
wouldn't outlawing in-camera lobbying have a free-for-all session of bribery?
'personal development can start with learning to grow your Knowledge from Ordinary, to Extraordinary'

Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2022, 01:04:44 am »
I'm ok with a hybrid of the programs we have now and a UBI program.  You can consolidate most of our social income programs into 1 guaranteed income program, however you also need to maintain eligibility requirements on most of them.

Show up to the UBI office and claim one of:
_ i'm old with no money
- i can't find employment/enough employment
- i'm disabled/sick
- I just had a baby and need parental leave
(Among other reasons)

Then you employ investigators to randomly sample applicants to make sure their claims are accurate and aren't fraud.  The amount of EI fraud for instance must be insane, because you're supposed to actively look for work while on EI and not simply sit at home, which they don't check up on.  If you're healthy and working age, there's jobs available, and refuse to work you don't deserve anything.
investigating could easily be done NOW since they have workers at the office but it could open doors for 'abuses' BY these investigators too. Look at how the Justice office reports it's the 'crown' attorneys who've done ALL the major 'incarcerating' of BIPOC or how corrections guards have committed 'abuses' of their powers. Major problem too - they got 'FREE' pass for their crimes.
'personal development can start with learning to grow your Knowledge from Ordinary, to Extraordinary'