Author Topic: The Wreck of BC  (Read 9979 times)

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Offline waldo

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #840 on: April 20, 2018, 03:01:00 pm »
no worries - help a brother out! Start with segmenting out the source of that coal (U.S. versus Canada)... then move on up to distinguish between thermal and metallurgical coal. Let's start there, hey! Please proceed Governor...
Links have already been posted on BC’s largest mines, their revenues and the fact Vancouver is NA’s largest coal exporting port. To quote someone called Waldo, “go fetch”

nice! For someone, you, who wants to posture over presumed hypocrisy concerning Canadian sourced export emissions (vis-a-vis coal versus tarsands sludge), the key is to start by distinguishing U.S. versus Canadian sources for that coal. The earlier referenced NP article (and its draw upon the Sierra Club link) does not provide that U.S. versus Canadian source distinction for coal. So... I suggest you, "go fetch", if you really want to get into the weeds further.

let me make a legitimate point you apparently can't: I would suggest a relatively small number of BC residents actually recognize/appreciate the amount of coal being mined/exported from BC ports. Simply stated I interpret the absence of any significant level of coal burning in BC might be a consideration in the lack of a profile recognition for coal... notwithstanding the principal 'Metro Vancouver' port is somewhat "out of sight" in Delta, while the North Van 'Neptune Terminal' exports a relatively smaller amount of coal - visibility and all that. Of course, my earlier 'run aground coal barge' pic that mocked SirArgus' stooopid comment is also another consideration... "leaking coal" discharge isn't going to get any attention... well, other than from the likes of SirArgus!  ;D

but hey, I wish you well in working to bring recognition to the level of coal exports and related 'downstream emissions' within respective export countries... let me know if I can help you and your team in any way! Best wishes.

Online wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #841 on: April 20, 2018, 03:52:11 pm »
That really wasn't your "middle ground", it was a rebuttal about taxes, with some bitching about BC thrown in.  Do you want to try again, ot should we just go with you don't have a middle ground?

A middle ground on what? Explain where a middle ground would be with this pipeline, bearing in mind it has to be profitable for the people who build it.
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Offline waldo

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #842 on: April 20, 2018, 03:56:41 pm »
A middle ground on what? Explain where a middle ground would be with this pipeline, bearing in mind it has to be profitable for the people who build it.

what's the barrel/day break even point for Trans Mountain expansion? Speaking of, care to speak to revenue streams - mice-nut royalties versus your suggested BigOil profitability coin?  ;D

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #843 on: April 20, 2018, 04:35:53 pm »
the "consensus" is enforced in climate science.
::)

Online wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #844 on: April 20, 2018, 06:26:45 pm »
what's the barrel/day break even point for Trans Mountain expansion? Speaking of, care to speak to revenue streams - mice-nut royalties versus your suggested BigOil profitability coin?  ;D


You think people invest 7 billion just so they can break even? Bet you think a bank savings account paying 1% is an investment.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 06:41:44 pm by wilber »
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Online wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #845 on: April 20, 2018, 06:30:58 pm »

let me make a legitimate point you apparently can't: I would suggest a relatively small number of BC residents actually recognize/appreciate the amount of coal being mined/exported from BC ports. Simply stated I interpret the absence of any significant level of coal burning in BC might be a consideration in the lack of a profile recognition for coal... notwithstanding the principal 'Metro Vancouver' port is somewhat "out of sight" in Delta, while the North Van 'Neptune Terminal' exports a relatively smaller amount of coal - visibility and all that.

Couldn't agree more. Out of sight, out of mind, not my problem, don't give a ****.

During the eighties I kept a light aircraft parked outside at Boundary Bay airport. I was constantly washing coal dust off the thing that came from the trains headed for Roberts Bank.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 06:51:00 pm by wilber »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #846 on: April 21, 2018, 12:13:26 am »
More polling suggesting that Horgan isn't even winning the political battle in his own province:

http://www.news1130.com/2018/04/20/poll-trans-mountain-support/


By the time this fiasco is over, I expect that the BC NDP will have made themselves so unpopular that it'll be another 20 years before they get another chance to run the province.

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Offline msj

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #847 on: April 21, 2018, 09:35:30 am »
The only polling I find interesting right now is the comparison of XEG.TO (CDN oil/tar sands producers) to XLE (US oil producers) to CL_F (price of oil).

So far the market thinks TMX is going to happen, imo. 
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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #848 on: April 21, 2018, 12:20:51 pm »
Interestingly, a consortium of First Nations groups and Canadian business interests has been promoting an alternative to Kinder Morgan:  a project called the "Eagle Spirit Pipeline".  Native communities from northern Alberta to northern BC have signed on, and would have equity in the project.

http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/first-nations-pipeline-has-a-plan-to-get-around-b-c-oil-tanker-ban-an-old-gold-rush-town-in-alaska

Now... given that it was environmentalists and Indigenous communities that lobbied furiously against tanker traffic on BC's northern coast in the first place, it's hard to see why this would be any better than the cancelled Northern Gateway project.    Their hope is that the tanker ban imposed by Trudeau when he canceled the Northern Gateway project could be lifted.  If not, they've come up with a backup plan: the ghost town of Hyder, Alaska. Instead of reaching the sea at Prince Rupert, the pipeline could angle north to reach Hyder, which has 87 residents, a post office, a bar, and most importantly sea access via a very long inlet that has Canadian land on one side and American land on the other.  Presumably a Canadian ban on tanker traffic would have no authority to ban tanker traffic from the US side of the inlet.

Canadian coastal First Nations in the Prince Rupert area are firmly opposed to the Eagle Spirit pipeline plan, but there would be little they could do about it if the pipeline went to Hyder instead of Prince Rupert.  Of course, the provincial and federal environmental reviews could kill the project regardless of whether it went to Hyder or Prince Rupert.  The proponent bands are no doubt hopeful that the participation and equity share of First Nations communities in this project would give both governments a strong incentive to approve it.


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Online wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #849 on: April 21, 2018, 12:42:11 pm »
Seems the locals aren't exactly ecstatic about it.

https://www.bnn.ca/over-my-dead-body-meet-the-man-standing-in-the-way-of-a-trans-mountain-alternative-1.1062998

Nimby Weaver wants someone else to take the risks he says are not acceptable on the south coast.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 12:43:48 pm by wilber »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #850 on: April 21, 2018, 01:59:23 pm »
BC residents, and the rest of Canadians besides Alberta, also lose if pipelines don't get built.  I get the concerns for not wanting it.  But what also has to be considered is that these pipelines contribute significantly to our overall economy since oil is among our most valuable trading resources. The oil sands helped get the country through the great recession on decent footing and still helps drive the economy.  If we can't get our oil to world markets we're screwed.  If our economy is slowed by slower & more expensive non-pipeline oil transport, it decreased the value of the loonie.  We've seen the loonie dip in price dramatically since the worldwide price of oil dropped a few years ago.  The loonie was at par to the US dollar as late as 2012 and it's taken a beating since down to 77-78 cents largely due to our oil revenues falling.

If we reduce/slow access for oil to the global trade markets, it devalues the loonie, which hurts every canadian since it obviously costs us more to buy goods from the US and worldwide.  It makes our gas prices higher based on a weaker loonie vs global oil prices & also decreases oil supply so again prices rise.  It also makes our economy/market/stockss less attractive to foreign investors who will be less likely to invest here.  For anyone with a pension plan or RRSP or own stocks/mutual funds etc. & you're invested at all in the Canadian markets then this hurts you too, and if you have any US stocks etc it costs more to buy them & you get less back when you sell them.

Not to mention slowing the Alberta economy which means less jobs.  If the pipelines need to go through aboriginal territory, well then compensate them with money, they certainly need it! BC should be financially compensated if their land is used.   Environmentally, these energy companies are very motivated to do everything they can to avoid spills, since they don't want to lose spilled oil, they don't want to pay to clean it up, they don't want the very bad PR which will make it harder to build new pipelines in the future as well as driving down their stock price.  Climate change wise, you aren't going to save the world by not building the pipeline. People still need to drive vehicles & use gas, it just might be a bit more expensive.

Read more here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gas-prices-analysis-1.4626692

No matter where they originate, oil products are priced in U.S. dollars. And the Canadian dollar has been the worst performing major currency against the U.S. this year — which may actually mean more money for Canadian oil companies when they convert those U.S. dollars back into loonies, but it's definitely not good news for gas buyers at the pumps.

The pipeline problems outlined above would send the Canadian benchmark oil price known as Western Canada Select even lower, which would drag the loonie down with it. "And if the loonie does a swan-dive, that's going to boost pump prices as well," McKnight says.

McTeague says a wobble of even a few dollars in the price of WCS could push the loonie down several cents, something Canadians across the country would feel each and every time they fill up.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #851 on: April 21, 2018, 02:21:33 pm »
The loonie was at par to the US dollar as late as 2012 and it's taken a beating since down to 77-78 cents largely due to our oil revenues falling.

You mean the US dollar took a beating in the post 2008 recession, but has since recovered?

Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #852 on: April 21, 2018, 02:25:59 pm »
Environmentally, these energy companies are very motivated to do everything they can to avoid spills, since they don't want to lose spilled oil, they don't want to pay to clean it up, they don't want the very bad PR which will make it harder to build new pipelines in the future as well as driving down their stock price.

Either that or subcontract to smaller companies that can go **** up and leave the taxpayer on the hook like Lac Megantic. The oil companies that ship any oil should be held 100% responsible for their product, and their executive face long jail time.

It is because of the multitude of oil spills from pipelines (eg. Kalamazoo) that these companies already have bad PR. Don't blame that on the environmentalists, that is 100% on the oil companies.

Offline Omni

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #853 on: April 21, 2018, 02:55:20 pm »
Either that or subcontract to smaller companies that can go **** up and leave the taxpayer on the hook like Lac Megantic. The oil companies that ship any oil should be held 100% responsible for their product, and their executive face long jail time.

It is because of the multitude of oil spills from pipelines (eg. Kalamazoo) that these companies already have bad PR. Don't blame that on the environmentalists, that is 100% on the oil companies.

Some years ago I was taken on a tour of a pipeline pumping station on the line that runs along the Mackenzie River from Norman Wells to Zama Lake, and one of the safety features that was pointed out was that pressure monitors at each station would react to a pressure drop between them which, would be cause d by a rupture, and automatically close valves, and sound alarms. This would result in isolating the spill to that section of line. That would happen even if the people at the pumping stations were asleep. I guess they didn't have such devices on the line that ruptured at teh Kalamazoo River since it flowed unobstructed for something like 17 hours before anyone was aware. That's an older line for sure but I wonder if similar or improved safety devices would be included in this proposed new line. I guess I better study up on current pipeline construction techniques.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #854 on: April 22, 2018, 11:18:50 am »
Rex Murphy has a way with words.

Government-to-government disagreement is not however, by any means, the real problem here. As was most saliently noted this week by Brian Crowley of the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, those who believe that the interprovincial quarrel is the main obstacle to seeing the Trans Mountain built are fooling themselves. It is not, nor has it ever been. “Even (if) B.C. accepts it must obey the law, we are left with those who feel no such scruples: the hardline environmental movement.”

There is the real threat. Regardless of any future court resolutions, any accommodations worked out between the Alberta and B.C. governments, there remain the ninjas of extreme environmentalism: the various and legion NGOs, the acrobats of Greenpeace, the dubious think-tanks and “charities,” the foundations, foreign and domestic, the radical Indigenous groupings — all consortia who have been fully baptized and subscribe to every dogma of the science-settled Church of the Latter Day Apocalyptics of Global Warming. Professional scofflaws all, who claim the virtue of their cause is supreme over law, government, the national economy, or any other perspective other than their self-declared mission.


http://nationalpost.com/opinion/rex-murphy-environmental-extremists-are-threatening-canada
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