Author Topic: The Wreck of BC  (Read 9865 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #735 on: April 19, 2018, 09:08:27 am »
huh! What 'exact opposite' is the Saudi Aramco company doing?

They are building refineries where their customers are, as opposed to this notion Horgan and Weaver are promoting that exporting refined products is the wave of the future.


as an aside:

Saudis, SoftBank Plan World's Largest Solar Project - 200GW of solar capacity @ $200 billion investment

Saudi Arabia touts US$500 billion wind and solar powered investment zone

That's pretty great, but I don't anticipate the Saudis leaving the oil business any time soon.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #736 on: April 19, 2018, 09:12:39 am »
Let’s end the confederacy. Simple.


And do what?
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #737 on: April 19, 2018, 09:15:24 am »
Ontario has never once whined and cried like the little spoiled brat Alberta which does that continually. You forgot to mention the District of Athabaska where all those resources are was another gift to the rotten little child.

Gift from who? Or are you one of those who thinks the rest of the country exists at the pleasure of central Canada?
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Offline TimG

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #738 on: April 19, 2018, 09:28:59 am »
Gift from who? Or are you one of those who thinks the rest of the country exists at the pleasure of central Canada?
It is also revisionist history. Ontario wanted provincial control of resources because in 1860s Ontario was a major producer of oil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Canada

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #739 on: April 19, 2018, 09:33:29 am »
Ontario has never once whined and cried like the little spoiled brat Alberta which does that continually.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that just inflames the resentment of Albertans, especially ones old enough to remember the NEP.

You forgot to mention the District of Athabaska where all those resources are was another gift to the rotten little child.

It wasn't a "gift" to Alberta. It was an older jurisdiction that was eliminated along with other prairie jurisdictions in the creation of Alberta and Saskatchewan.  At the time, they didn't think there was anything up there except muskeg and natives.  If they had a time-machine to see the future, maybe they would have done things differently, but again the constitutional precedent is "no takebacksies."

And of course the Alberta oil industry didn't start in the far north of the province. It started in Leduc, a stone's throw south of Edmonton. The south of the province was dotted with "ponies" a long time before the industry expanded north.

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Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline kimmy

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #740 on: April 19, 2018, 09:35:19 am »
It is also revisionist history. Ontario wanted provincial control of resources because in 1860s Ontario was a major producer of oil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_industry_in_Canada

Like I said, it probably seemed like a great idea when Canada's oil capital was Sarnia.

 -k
Paris - London - New York - Kim City

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #741 on: April 19, 2018, 10:09:20 am »
The NEP is nothing more than a bogey man Albertans are spoon fed since they are children.  It’s practically indocrinated  into every Albertan that the scary federal guvmint tried to steal their **** and now they must hate Liberals and whine about transfer payments. 

Ironic that they are now siding with federal Liberal guvmint to oppose BC’s stand on provincial authorities. 
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #742 on: April 19, 2018, 10:30:02 am »
Personally, I would rather live in a province that contributes to equalization than receives it, but it must wear a little thin when people use you as the country's whipping boy for your trouble.

Quote
The goals of the Program were "security of supply and ultimate independence from the world oil market; opportunity for all Canadians to participate in the energy industry; particularly oil and gas, and to share in the benefits of its expansion; and fairness, with a pricing and revenue-sharing regime which recognizes the needs and rights of all Canadians".[1]

The NEP was designed to promote oil self-sufficiency for Canada, maintain the oil supply, particularly for the industrial base in eastern Canada, promote Canadian ownership of the energy industry, promote lower prices, promote exploration for oil in Canada, promote alternative energy sources, and increase government revenues from oil sales through a variety of taxes and agreements.[19]



The NEP's Petroleum Gas Revenue Tax (PGRT) instituted a double-taxation mechanism that did not apply to other commodities, such as gold and copper (see "Program details" item (c), below). The program would "... redistribute revenue from the [oil] industry and lessen the cost of oil for Eastern Canada..." in an attempt to insulate the Canadian economy from the shock of rising global oil prices[20] (see "Program details" item (a), below). In 1981 Scarfe argued that by keeping domestic oil prices below world market prices, the NEP was essentially mandating provincial generosity and subsidizing all Canadian consumers of fuel, thanks to Alberta and the other oil producing provinces (such as Newfoundland, which as a result of the NEP received funding for the Hibernia project).[14]:8

In other words, use Alberta to subsidize eastern imports.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 10:34:07 am by wilber »
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Offline waldo

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #743 on: April 19, 2018, 10:34:22 am »
They are building refineries where their customers are, as opposed to this notion Horgan and Weaver are promoting that exporting refined products is the wave of the future.

no - your failed analogy makes no sense. The India refinery output financed by Saudi company money isn't intended for Saudi domestic use/need (obviously)... isn't for export use at all - it's intended for domestic consumption within India.

That's pretty great, but I don't anticipate the Saudis leaving the oil business any time soon.

any time soon is relative and fits within the broader global shifts? Saudi's own pronouncements were profound - to diversify and to begin to 'wean off fossil fuels'... that even in a country where oil is most plentiful renewables beckon as a cheap/clean alternative to fossil-fuels... to positioning Saudi Arabia as a world leader in renewable investment (internally and abroad).

Offline cybercoma

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #744 on: April 19, 2018, 10:36:39 am »
And do what?
You miss the point. Either we are a confederacy and federal resources are shared federally or we're just a collective of disparate provincial interests going it alone.

Offline waldo

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #745 on: April 19, 2018, 10:43:05 am »
Personally, I would rather live in a province that contributes to equalization than receives it, but it must wear a little thin when people use you as the country's whipping boy for your trouble.

In other words, use Alberta to subsidize eastern imports.

the equalization play is meaningless in the face of actual tax bases contributing to federal coffers... equally, the tired talking point about "giving and not receiving" is disingenuous for anyone to use equalization monies as "the determiner" in presumed inequality in the share of dispersed federal monies.

equalization monies, proper, are relatively mice-nuts small in relation to overall federal revenues and TOTAL federal expenditures to the respective provinces. There is no such thing as an "equalization transfer of Alberta monies" to the federal government. What you're really speaking to is the difference between revenues and expenditures... in that regard, more pointedly, the federal government does not receive anything directly from any province; rather, federal taxes/revenue are collected WITHIN a respective province, not FROM a respective province... be that personal income tax, corporate income tax, GST, investment income, etc. And most pointedly, federal expenditures to the provinces are, of course, more than just the so-called 'formal transfers' like health (CHT), social (CST) and equalization... they also include all manner of spending like for infrastructure, transportation, education, national defence, grant/funds for recreation & cultural events/festivals, environment, security, etc..
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #746 on: April 19, 2018, 10:45:13 am »
You miss the point. Either we are a confederacy and federal resources are shared federally or we're just a collective of disparate provincial interests going it alone.

So why do you think it is OK for individual provinces to block other provinces from getting their products to foreign markets?

If the feds put a special tax only on Ontario's biggest revenue generator, then distributed all those tax revenues to the other provinces, you would be OK way with that.
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #747 on: April 19, 2018, 10:50:19 am »
the equalization play is meaningless in the face of actual tax bases contributing to federal coffers... equally, the tired talking point about "giving and not receiving" is disingenuous for anyone to use equalization monies as "the determiner" in presumed inequality in the share of dispersed federal monies.

equalization monies, proper, are relatively mice-nuts small in relation to overall federal revenues and TOTAL federal expenditures to the respective provinces. There is no such thing as an "equalization transfer of Alberta monies" to the federal government. What you're really speaking to is the difference between revenues and expenditures... in that regard, more pointedly, the federal government does not receive anything directly from any province; rather, federal taxes/revenue are collected WITHIN a respective province, not FROM a respective province... be that personal income tax, corporate income tax, GST, investment income, etc. And most pointedly, federal expenditures to the provinces are, of course, more than just the so-called 'formal transfers' like health (CHT), social (CST) and equalization... they also include all manner of spending like for infrastructure, transportation, education, national defence, grant/funds for recreation & cultural events/festivals, environment, security, etc..
s

 Alberta receives back a smaller percentage of the money it sends to Ottawa than other provinces. That is what equalization is about, is it not? If it isn't, why have it.

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #748 on: April 19, 2018, 10:54:59 am »
Alberta receives back a smaller percentage of the money it sends to Ottawa than other provinces. That is what equalization is about, is it not? If it isn't, why have it.

Alberta doesn't send any money to Ottawa, but if you took a second to actually read and understand waldo's post you would know that
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Offline wilber

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Re: The Wreck of BC
« Reply #749 on: April 19, 2018, 10:57:07 am »
no - your failed analogy makes no sense. The India refinery output financed by Saudi company money isn't intended for Saudi domestic use/need (obviously)... isn't for export use at all - it's intended for domestic consumption within India.

any time soon is relative and fits within the broader global shifts? Saudi's own pronouncements were profound - to diversify and to begin to 'wean off fossil fuels'... that even in a country where oil is most plentiful renewables beckon as a cheap/clean alternative to fossil-fuels... to positioning Saudi Arabia as a world leader in renewable investment (internally and abroad).

Solar works really well in a country that is almost 2000 miles closer to the equator than Canada's southern border and also has basically 365 day sunshine.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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