Author Topic: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments  (Read 337 times)

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Offline the_squid

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Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« on: February 18, 2019, 02:47:14 pm »
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/oilsands-environmental-impact-studies-flawed-inconsistent-science-edmonton-1.5023488
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Dozens of oilsands environmental impact studies are marred by inconsistent science that's rarely subjected to independent checks, says a university study.

"It doesn't make any sense," says University of British Columbia biology professor Adam Ford, who published his findings in the journal Environmental Reviews.

"You would have to go out of your way to make it this bad. It's just a symptom of the state of the industry and it's definitely a signal that we can do better."


Oil companies covering up the true environmental costs of the tar sands...   what a shocker.   

They should be charged criminally for fudging these reports. 

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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 02:55:45 pm »
They should be charged criminally for fudging these reports.

Unfortunately this is a huge problem in many industries, and goes back decades. I had a co-worker who studied environmental science, but got disillusioned as the majority of job prospects involved him fudging results for corporate concerns. His focus was on amphibian habitats, but construction companies wanted to figure out how to do the minimum like building fences to get their projects approved and then let the fences fall into disrepair. After a few years of that BS, he changed professions.

Offline TimG

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 03:01:19 pm »
Oil companies covering up the true environmental costs of the tar sands...   what a shocker.
I don't see any difference from climate science where the mantra is "if the data does not match my theory then invent bogus adjustments to make the data match". The only difference is the CBC is not going to report on shoddy climate science.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 03:11:50 pm by TimG »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2019, 03:34:05 pm »
I don't see any difference from climate science where the mantra is "if the data does not match my theory then invent bogus adjustments to make the data match". The only difference is the CBC is not going to report on shoddy climate science.

Maybe we should put you in charge of reporting shoddy climate science. Hint: you can find most of it among global warming deniers.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 05:32:10 pm »
I don't see any difference from climate science where the mantra is "if the data does not match my theory then invent bogus adjustments to make the data match". The only difference is the CBC is not going to report on shoddy climate science.

This is exactly what the flat earthers say...   people are "hiding the real data".... 

Also, anti-vaxers say this about the science that vaccinations cause autism...  "oh, they are suppressing the science".

Same difference between you and the other science-refuting nutbars.
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Offline eyeball

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 06:07:27 pm »
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/oilsands-environmental-impact-studies-flawed-inconsistent-science-edmonton-1.5023488
Oil companies covering up the true environmental costs of the tar sands...   what a shocker.   

They should be charged criminally for fudging these reports.
Thankfully we have deferred prosecution agreements now.

So I wonder how long it will be until they morph DPA's into financial instruments that can be traded like production quotas, carbon credits or bearer bonds?  Maybe it could be sold like insurance. 

If corruption is an absolute must and the economy just cannot live without it could we not monetize it in a way that we can at least account for the costs it comes with and tax it like any other vice we've grown comfortable with?
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 06:16:17 pm »
DPA's have been around in other countries for a while. Probably the US led with them about 30-40 years ago, but the UK, France, Japan, and Singapore also have them. Australia is working on legislation, comment period closed last summer but to the best of my knowledge it is still pending.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2019, 07:18:11 pm »
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/oilsands-environmental-impact-studies-flawed-inconsistent-science-edmonton-1.5023488
Oil companies covering up the true environmental costs of the tar sands...   what a shocker.   

They should be charged criminally for fudging these reports.

Mr Ford isn't alleging any fudging, cover-up, or criminal activity.  He is criticizing a lack of uniform methodology in these impact studies.

 -k
Masked for your safety.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2019, 07:31:43 pm »
“You would have to go out of your way to make it this bad” implies lies. 

Offline TimG

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2019, 07:53:21 pm »
This is exactly what the flat earthers say...   people are "hiding the real data"....
Nobody is hiding the data. It is available and it is easy to see how climate scientists have consistently dealt with any differences between the models and the real data by adding ad hoc, subjective adjustments to correct "errors". These adjustments are often so large they turn what used to be data into a meaningless fiction. If these so called errors really do exist in the data then the correct answer is "we don't have any reliable data so we can't say anything". But that is not the answer they give. Instead the say "see the data matches our models after we added our "corrections". Complete BS.

If a drug company pulled these kinds of stunts in a drug trial they would be facing major lawsuits and possible criminal charges. But with climate science the legions of useful idiot run around screaming "denier" at anyone who points out how pathetically shoddy the science is.

All I am asking is that climate scientists be held to the same standards that drug companies are held to. Is that really too much to ask?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 07:56:23 pm by TimG »
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2019, 08:06:02 pm »
“You would have to go out of your way to make it this bad” implies lies.

The text of the article makes clear that he's criticizing inconsistent methodology.   He was able to access all of these reports to compile his analysis.  And the basis of his complaint is that the reports use wildly differing methodology.

He's not alleging these reports are falsified, no matter how badly you wish he were.

 -k
Masked for your safety.

Offline Omni

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2019, 08:41:15 pm »
Nobody is hiding the data. It is available and it is easy to see how climate scientists have consistently dealt with any differences between the models and the real data by adding ad hoc, subjective adjustments to correct "errors". These adjustments are often so large they turn what used to be data into a meaningless fiction. If these so called errors really do exist in the data then the correct answer is "we don't have any reliable data so we can't say anything". But that is not the answer they give. Instead the say "see the data matches our models after we added our "corrections". Complete BS.

If a drug company pulled these kinds of stunts in a drug trial they would be facing major lawsuits and possible criminal charges. But with climate science the legions of useful idiot run around screaming "denier" at anyone who points out how pathetically shoddy the science is.

All I am asking is that climate scientists be held to the same standards that drug companies are held to. Is that really too much to ask?

Trying to conflate bayer aspirin to NASA is about as dumb a concept as you have come up with so far.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2019, 08:48:21 pm »
The text of the article makes clear that he's criticizing inconsistent methodology.   He was able to access all of these reports to compile his analysis.  And the basis of his complaint is that the reports use wildly differing methodology.

He's not alleging these reports are falsified, no matter how badly you wish he were.

 -k

Do you think these oil companies wanted to use the best science available in their pre-drilling environmental assessments?

Offline TimG

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2019, 09:13:12 pm »
Do you think these oil companies wanted to use the best science available in their pre-drilling environmental assessments?
So do you think that climate scientists use the best science available in their attribution studies or do you think they fudge the numbers to ensure they have something exciting to publish?

You seem to want to infer that profit motivated companies are going to cheat if they can but you refuse to consider the possibility that government funded scientists might do the same thing.
Why the shameless hypocrisy?
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Offline Omni

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Re: Tar Sands Companies Fudge Environmental Assessments
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2019, 09:17:12 pm »
So do you think that climate scientists use the best science available in their attribution studies or do you think they fudge the numbers to ensure they have something exciting to publish?

You seem to want to infer that profit motivated companies are going to cheat if they can but you refuse to consider the possibility that government funded scientists might do the same thing.
Why the shameless hypocrisy?

Most scientists work for governments and so are not "profit motivated". Another rather dumb attempt from you.
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