Author Topic: Safe Injection Sites in Ontario and the Idea of 'Evidence'  (Read 631 times)

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Offline TimG

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You know very little about addiction if you think fear of infection or death is an effective motivation factor.
I am very familiar with addiction with 2 recovering family members and 1 dead from suicide. I know how addicts think and making indulging their addiction convenient and comfortable will make it less likely that they will accept treatment. The fact that  you call AA/NA "bible thumpers" shows that you are clueless and know nothing about addiction and recovery.

If we followed your wasting resource logic, then we should get rid of ambulances and spend that money on more hospital beds.
Logic fail. No one is arguing that ambulances increase the number of emergencies.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:33:26 am by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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I know how addicts think and making indulging their addiction convenient and comfortable will make it less likely that they will accept treatment.
...
No one is arguing that ambulances increase the number of emergencies.

A SIS does not indulge the addiction or make it more convenient and comfortable. It simply reduces instances of the most severe consequences.
...
Are you arguing that an SIS increases the number of something? It does not provide drugs, only clean needles and monitoring for overdose.

Offline TimG

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A SIS does not indulge the addiction or make it more convenient and comfortable. It simply reduces instances of the most severe consequences.
SIS provide a clean and safe place to indulge one's addiction. That, by definition, means indulging the addition and making it more comfortable to use.

Are you arguing that an SIS increases the number of something? It does not provide drugs, only clean needles and monitoring for overdose.
It is hard to discuss this with you because you appear to have no understanding of why it is so hard to help people with addictions. It is not simply a question of physical withdrawal from a substance. Addiction is a complex psychological problem where addicts delude themselves into believing they can function while using their drug of choice. Any action that it makes easier/safer/convenient will feed the denial impulse and potentially delay the date when an addict breaks through their denial and seeks treatment.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:18:04 am by TimG »

Offline ?Impact

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Any action that makes easier/safer/convenient will feed the denial impulse and potentially delay the date when an addict breaks through their denial and seeks treatment.

Seeking treatment is not the problem, succeeding is. Available of better treatment could improve that, but is far from reality.

Offline cybercoma

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IOW, you have no clue. You throw around stats without understanding how they were calculated
Says the guy who assumes the stats are manipulated without showing any evidence whatsoever to support that claim.
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Offline cybercoma

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Why are we even indulging Tim's completely unsubstantiated claims? He has no evidence or data to support any of the wild assumptions he's making, but here we are wasting energy trying to have a discussion about something that has no merit. Until Tim provides evidence for his nonsensical claims that SIS do more harm than good, he can **** off.
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Offline TimG

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Seeking treatment is not the problem, succeeding is. Available of better treatment could improve that, but is far from reality.
Actually it is. The biggest barrier to addiction treatment is the need to convince the addict that they actually need treatment. Once you break down that barrier then you need to deal with the physical withdrawal which is why immediate access to detox beds is do important. If an addict reaches a point where they are willing to seek treatment but have to wait 4-6 weeks for help with the withdrawal symptoms then they will often return to their addiction and the opportunity will be lost.

The reason so many people don't stick it out with AA is because they are still in denial and look for excuses to go back drinking. In patient facilities that keep patients in the program with threats of consequences can reduce the number of dropouts. This will have the effect of increasing success rates but you can't compare a program where people forced to stay to a voluntary program.


Offline TimG

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Why are we even indulging Tim's completely unsubstantiated claims? He has no evidence or data to support any of the wild assumptions he's making, but here we are wasting energy trying to have a discussion about something that has no merit. Until Tim provides evidence for his nonsensical claims that SIS do more harm than good, he can **** off.
My claims are not unsubstantiated. They based on years of experience dealing with people in active addiction and recovery.

In any case, how exactly would one design a study to determine if people delay seeking treatment when SIS facilities are available? I don't see how one could collect the data.

Your attitude that all knowledge can be ignored unless there are "studies" is just plain dumb.
People who work with addicts on the daily basis will agree that everything I say about denial and enabling is very true.
The only real question is if it is a significant factor but too many people like you refuse to take it as a serious concern.
 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:40:06 am by TimG »

Offline cybercoma

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My claims are not unsubstantiated. They based on years of experience dealing with people in active addiction and recovery.
Your anecdotal "experience" does not supersede researched evidence of the effectiveness of these programs. You provide no data, no analysis, no research whatsoever to support your claims.

Offline TimG

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Your anecdotal "experience" does not supersede researched evidence of the effectiveness of these programs. You provide no data, no analysis, no research whatsoever to support your claims.
And you have no data to support your claims because no one has looked at this particular issue. Why should your opinion that it has no effect be given any consideration given the overwhelming anecdotal evidence that it is a serious concern?

Aside: this is a game that see played by your ilk all of the time:

1) Find a study that looks at a narrow set of problems;
2) Assert that no one can question your ideologically driven preferences because of the study;
3) Accuse people of "not having data" when someone points out problems that the study did not look it;

This BS is tiresome. If you are so convince that risk of enabling addicts is not a concern then show me the studies that looked at the problem specifically and what methodology they used.

If you can't do that then just admit you are hypocrite.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 12:18:22 pm by TimG »

Offline Omni

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And you have no data to support your claims because no one has looked at this particular issue. Why should your opinion that it has no effect be given any consideration given the overwhelming anecdotal evidence that it is a serious concern?

These sites save lives, there is ample evidence of that. O/D's, HIV/AIDS, various infections from shared needles, all can be fatal and are prevented by provision of clean needles used under medical supervision. There is also evidence that people who use A SIS are more likely to seek detox and counseling to quit. This may not occur immediately be successful immediately, but if you die in a back alley it's unlikely you will ever seek that type of help.
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Offline TimG

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There is also evidence that people who use A SIS are more likely to seek detox and counseling to quit.
Where is this evidence? How did they create their control group?

Offline Omni

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Where is this evidence? How did they create their control group?

There are a number of others but you need to do your own homework.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/supervised-injection-sites-for-drug-users#1

Four studies in the review showed that people who used the supervised injection site were more likely to enter a detox program or addiction treatment.

VCH also operates an adjoining detox treatment facility called Onsite. Akins said that during the past year, 443 people visiting Insite were referred to this facility. They stayed an average of 11 days, with 179 people no longer needing detox services.

Offline TimG

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Four studies in the review showed that people who used the supervised injection site were more likely to enter a detox program or addiction treatment.
Does not say how they created their control group. Surveys of people on the street that don't come  into the SIS?

Offline Omni

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Does not say how they created their control group. Surveys of people on the street that don't come  into the SIS?

See reply # 80.