Author Topic: Safe Injection Sites in Ontario and the Idea of 'Evidence'  (Read 623 times)

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Offline MH

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So far there isn't much about how we use 'evidence' in the media in these discussions.

A little bit about the corruptibility of academia, but it's mostly it's arguing about whether SIS work or not. 

The odd thing is that people have given up on the idea of rationality being important, so we're kind of back to pre-democracy - as evidenced by the birthplace of western democracy electing an illiterate as president.


Offline cybercoma

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The devil is in the details:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc052939

First, confirmation that my concern is valid and your previous dismissals of my "anecdotal" claims where arrogant BS:
Second, this study does not measure what you think it does:The key element here is contact with an addictions counselor and access to detox - not SIS itself.

More importantly, the comparison is between users of the SIS - there is no data comparing the users of the SIS to what would happen if the same addictions counselors and detox services were made available without the SIS.

This is a good example of how you misrepresent scientific knowledge in order to advance your pet ideological objectives while denigrating people who call you on your BS.
You responded to a more recent meta-analysis of 47 separate studies with a single study dating back to 2006 and you have the nerve to try to lecture anyone on here about scientific validity? Get the fuck outta here.
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Offline cybercoma

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The odd thing is that people have given up on the idea of rationality being important, so we're kind of back to pre-democracy - as evidenced by the birthplace of western democracy electing an illiterate as president.
Some people have given up rationality and I suggest that we go back to treating them as they ought to be treated: like irrational lunatics that offer nothing to society.
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Offline MH

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Some people have given up rationality and I suggest that we go back to treating them as they ought to be treated: like irrational lunatics that offer nothing to society.

Fair enough.  I don't know how to roll back the clock though.

Offline Omni

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Fair enough.  I don't know how to roll back the clock though.

Ooooh the endless platitudes. You don't role anything back you move forward armed with knowledge and hope the nitwits catch on.

Offline MH

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Ooooh the endless platitudes. You don't role anything back you move forward armed with knowledge and hope the nitwits catch on.

Your post makes no sense:

1) I didn't make a platitude
2) Regardless of whatever metaphor I used, the point is that it's difficult to enact what Cyber is suggesting. 
3) You provided no suggestion of your own, after accusing me of delivering platitudes.

All I was saying is... "Ok, not a bad idea but it's hard to do.  How do we do this ?"

Offline Omni

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Your post makes no sense:

1) I didn't make a platitude
2) Regardless of whatever metaphor I used, the point is that it's difficult to enact what Cyber is suggesting. 
3) You provided no suggestion of your own, after accusing me of delivering platitudes.

All I was saying is... "Ok, not a bad idea but it's hard to do.  How do we do this ?"

Conflating electing Trump and the validity of the purpose and effectiveness of SIS's is a rather large wander from the focus of the subject at hand.

Offline MH

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Conflating electing Trump and the validity of the purpose and effectiveness of SIS's is a rather large wander from the focus of the subject at hand.

Hey goofy - read the OP again.  This whole thread is about how evidence is largely ignored and I even predicted how this thread would go down.  Please go away now...

Offline Omni

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Hey goofy - read the OP again.  This whole thread is about how evidence is largely ignored and I even predicted how this thread would go down.  Please go away now...

Happily, Goofy.

Offline ?Impact

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I even predicted how this thread would go down

Can you show me any examples of threads, especially ones of politically charged topics, that go down differently?

Offline MH

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Happily, Goofy.

Sorry I called you Goofy.

Offline MH

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Can you show me any examples of threads, especially ones of politically charged topics, that go down differently?

Maybe not, however I stated at the top that this thread wasn't about that and tried to inoculate it, in vain.

Offline MH

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Conflating electing Trump and the validity of the purpose and effectiveness of SIS's is a rather large wander from the focus of the subject at hand.

So the connecting filament to those two topics is how people rationalize behaviour and thinking.

Offline TimG

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You responded to a more recent meta-analysis of 47 separate studies with a single study dating back to 2006 and you have the nerve to try to lecture anyone on here about scientific validity?
I had a specific concern about the lack of any attempt to study the risk of prolonging addictions. I found the 1 study that claimed to address that particular issue and discovered it was a joke that did not actually measure what it claimed to measure.

And your dogmatic response is "no one other that you is allowed to comment on what those studies say and do not say".

Same BS propaganda tactics that I see from you over and over again.
If you want to talk science then be precise about the questions asked and the reliability of the methods used.
If you are not willing to at least acknowledge that the question I would like answer has not been studied then you are the one rejecting science.

And stop whinging about red herrings. I never claimed SIS did not reduce over dose deaths or reduce disease transmission.
I never claimed that SIS increased drug use or crime. Studies on those points are irrelevant to my concern.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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With the fentanyl crisis, there were approx. 4,000 opioid-related fatalities in Canada in 2017, a nearly 50-per-cent increase from the previous year.  Personally I think the injection sites are needed more than ever.  If politicians want to shut them down, they really need to crunch the number and consider the consequences. 
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.