Author Topic: Patrick Brown #MeToo  (Read 3938 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #240 on: February 09, 2018, 01:04:18 pm »
what message do you think you are sending?  That men should be responsible for their own behavior?  Not really; the whole message is that 'real men' crave sex, and women are not safe around them.
"Not really"??? Not at all. You're generous.

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #241 on: February 09, 2018, 01:06:06 pm »
You actually read what he wrote? His ideas aren't interesting enough to waste my time.

Are you Rue-shaming me????    ;D

Sometimes he does post stuff I find interesting; I most often skip past the inevitable insults and ranting. 

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #242 on: February 09, 2018, 01:16:14 pm »
Are you Rue-shaming me????    ;D

Sometimes he does post stuff I find interesting; I most often skip past the inevitable insults and ranting.
I'm not shaming you. I'm envious of your time. Hell, I didn't even read your whole reply. I just responded because I saw you respond to it.

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #243 on: February 09, 2018, 01:25:31 pm »
I'm not shaming you. I'm envious of your time. Hell, I didn't even read your whole reply. I just responded because I saw you respond to it.

I was kidding anyway, didn't think you were.  Yeah, some days I have more time than other days.  Or maybe that's more interest.

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #244 on: February 09, 2018, 01:35:24 pm »
Not only that but he tried to make me a lot older than I am. I am used to the endless insults when he gets refuted, but messing with my age, now that hurts, especially today. I have a date with some candles later on. But not THAT many candles. :D

Well, Happy Candle-Day then.   I have a similar date in a couple of months, it's a biggie and officially entitles me to age-related discounts.   Why is Bruce Springsteen's "Glory Days" playing in my head now????

Offline Omni

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #245 on: February 09, 2018, 01:40:41 pm »
Well, Happy Candle-Day then.   I have a similar date in a couple of months, it's a biggie and officially entitles me to age-related discounts.   Why is Bruce Springsteen's "Glory Days" playing in my head now????

Thank you and let me return the same wish for your upcoming. Why is Neil Young's "old man take a look at my life" playing in my head?

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #246 on: February 09, 2018, 02:11:57 pm »
You wrote:
The problem women have is they are the gate-keepers for sex, and men want sex all the time. That means nothing will stop (heterosexual)men trying to persuade, seduce, influence, put pressure on, whine, beg, bribe, or otherwise seek to get women to let them in.

How is that not saying that men are slaves to their sexual desire and that nothing will stop them from trying to satisfy that desire?  I am damn certain that by 'otherwise' you didn't actually intend to include force, but it certainly is a wide open door for a lot of other men, isn't it?  Encouraging young girls to drink, whipping the dick out, manipulating young women, using threats of job loss, or violence, using drugs, simply raping by force - all of that falls under 'otherwise'. 


I think there can be a middle-of-the-road argument on this issue.  I think it could true that generally speaking, men are more wired to seek sex and for women to be the 'gate-keepers', however, I think Moonlight Graham nailed it in how to go about opening up that gate.  A decent man picks up the ok signals and proceeds bit by bit ensuring that there is reciprocity every step of the way. 

What I don't like to see is people excusing when a man doesn't respect a woman's lack of participation or blaming a woman for drinking too much when men take advantage of her inability to properly consent.  I don't think it's asking too much for men NOT to take advantage of drunk women just because some women enjoy drinking in the same way many men do.

I like to drink.  I like to get drunk.  I wish I would not have to worry about being date-**** if I'm too drunk the way men don't have to worry about it.  It's complete male privilege to think a drunk woman is partly responsible for a man's bad behaviour. 

If what these women say is true (and I usually believe women when there is more than one), was not proper male/female etiquette.  Him purposely getting a woman drunk in order to lower her inhibitions and go against the male/female etiquette just makes him more of a predator. 

It's just slightly better than spiking someone's drink, but it's the exact same mentality.


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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #247 on: February 09, 2018, 02:23:46 pm »
You wrote:
The problem women have is they are the gate-keepers for sex, and men want sex all the time. That means nothing will stop (heterosexual)men trying to persuade, seduce, influence, put pressure on, whine, beg, bribe, or otherwise seek to get women to let them in.

How is that not saying that men are slaves to their sexual desire

It was a generalization about the male instinct and acknowledgement that among several billion people there is going to be a huge variance in desire, in ability, in the degree of social adjustment, control and behavior. Not to mention an understanding of what any individual woman wants. It was not in any way, shape or form depicting men as slavering, uncontrolled sexual beasts.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #248 on: February 09, 2018, 02:26:55 pm »
The evidence on this forum and MLW show otherwise. You're quick to insult people who challenge you.

You didn't go into my ignore file because you challenged me. You went into my ignore file because of the increasingly bitter, angry and insulting responses you delivered to every opinion I gave, which was then causing me to respond and getting me in trouble with the moderator.

Again, like many of the progressives, you find those who disagree with your positions to be detestable people and much prefer assuming a moral stance to attack them rather than bother with their opinions, which of course, you disregard as having no validity without a second thought (or even a first). All your views are gloriously infused with the righteous certainty of the true believer, and all who question them are vile heretics.


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #249 on: February 09, 2018, 02:39:45 pm »
I think there can be a middle-of-the-road argument on this issue.  I think it could true that generally speaking, men are more wired to seek sex and for women to be the 'gate-keepers', however, I think Moonlight Graham nailed it in how to go about opening up that gate.  A decent man picks up the ok signals and proceeds bit by bit ensuring that there is reciprocity every step of the way.

I would agree wholeheartedly with one caveat. Your use of the term 'decent' is not entirely accurate in that not all men have the ability to pick up those signals to the same degree. We are not all born with the same degree of empathy or understanding for one another.

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I like to drink.  I like to get drunk.  I wish I would not have to worry about being date-**** if I'm too drunk the way men don't have to worry about it.  It's complete male privilege to think a drunk woman is partly responsible for a man's bad behaviour. 

I partially disagree. I agree that it is a privilege straight men have that they know getting drunk is not going to get them jumped by some strange woman. Although to a great degree that's because they don't CARE if they get jumped by some strange woman while drunk. And again, I'm obviously generalizing. I also don't think anyone thinks a drunk woman is responsible for a man's bad behavior. On the other hand, I don't excuse a drunk woman for HER behavior, like so many others seem to.

Explain to me the fairness of the  law on sexual consent while intoxicated. To me it seems deeply sexist and paternalistic. Women, however drunk THEY GET THEMSELVES, have no responsibility and indeed cannot even give legal consent to sex, even if they very strongly want to. However, the guy who is equally drunk may not use his own drunkenness as any kind of a defense as to why he had sex with her enthusiastic consent. How is that in any way fair or equal? Her drunkenness means she lacks the ability to form an intelligent thought but his drunkenness is deliberately not considered? Either HUMANS are responsible for getting themselves drunk and what they do when drunk or they're not. Which is it?

Note that if a man is drunk or  takes **** and deliberately murders someone, his being high or drunk can be used as a defense. Most likely he'll be found guilty of manslaughter instead. Yet in sex we place all the burden on the male and none on the female to drink responsibility and mind their behavior. That's entirely sexist. I acknowledge that man can be more consequence free if they get drunk in that women are not likely to 'take advantage' of that, but the fact women have more consequences means they ought to be more careful. Unfair? Sure. But that's the way things are.



"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #250 on: February 09, 2018, 02:40:26 pm »
Him purposely getting a woman drunk in order to lower her inhibitions and go against the male/female etiquette just makes him more of a predator. 

It's just slightly better than spiking someone's drink, but it's the exact same mentality.

Exactly.   Remember that guy, Paul Jordan on DTES some years ago who would pick up women and provide them alcohol till they died.  They went willingly, they even drank what he gave them willingly, but he was no less a predator because of their willing participation. 

This is not to say that Brown's behavior is as reprehensible as Jordan's, but if a guy shows a pattern of inappropriate sexual behavior towards intoxicated women, that's a problem that is beyond a man hoping he'll get lucky and making a wrong move or a woman drinking too much and maneuvered into being alone with a man.

Offline Omni

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #251 on: February 09, 2018, 02:57:08 pm »
I would agree wholeheartedly with one caveat. Your use of the term 'decent' is not entirely accurate in that not all men have the ability to pick up those signals to the same degree. We are not all born with the same degree of empathy or understanding for one another.

I partially disagree. I agree that it is a privilege straight men have that they know getting drunk is not going to get them jumped by some strange woman. Although to a great degree that's because they don't CARE if they get jumped by some strange woman while drunk. And again, I'm obviously generalizing. I also don't think anyone thinks a drunk woman is responsible for a man's bad behavior. On the other hand, I don't excuse a drunk woman for HER behavior, like so many others seem to.

Explain to me the fairness of the  law on sexual consent while intoxicated. To me it seems deeply sexist and paternalistic. Women, however drunk THEY GET THEMSELVES, have no responsibility and indeed cannot even give legal consent to sex, even if they very strongly want to. However, the guy who is equally drunk may not use his own drunkenness as any kind of a defense as to why he had sex with her enthusiastic consent. How is that in any way fair or equal? Her drunkenness means she lacks the ability to form an intelligent thought but his drunkenness is deliberately not considered? Either HUMANS are responsible for getting themselves drunk and what they do when drunk or they're not. Which is it?

Note that if a man is drunk or  takes **** and deliberately murders someone, his being high or drunk can be used as a defense. Most likely he'll be found guilty of manslaughter instead. Yet in sex we place all the burden on the male and none on the female to drink responsibility and mind their behavior. That's entirely sexist. I acknowledge that man can be more consequence free if they get drunk in that women are not likely to 'take advantage' of that, but the fact women have more consequences means they ought to be more careful. Unfair? Sure. But that's the way things are.

Yet another group of unsubstantiated assumptions to try and protect men's bad behavior. If you think the burden is unfairly placed on the male, maybe you'd like to explain the Alberta judges comments to a woman in a **** case as to why didn't she keep her legs together.Maybe that's the "way things are" were you grew up, but not where a lot of us grew up. Regardless of whether or not drink is involved acceptance of sexual aggression must be mutually agreeable or it must stop. End of story.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #252 on: February 09, 2018, 03:37:19 pm »
I would agree wholeheartedly with one caveat. Your use of the term 'decent' is not entirely accurate in that not all men have the ability to pick up those signals to the same degree. We are not all born with the same degree of empathy or understanding for one another.

And that's what we are all debating here, was Patrick Brown a bumbling man who didn't get it when a woman wasn't into him or was he a predator?  None of us were there but the thing that stands out to me is the fact that a sober man went out of his way to buy drinks and get a young woman drunk.  To me that seems predatory and thereafter I judge his actions as such.  I don't think he was bumbling so much as he is not the kind of man who understands proper male/female etiquette in seeking sex.

I partially disagree. I agree that it is a privilege straight men have that they know getting drunk is not going to get them jumped by some strange woman. Although to a great degree that's because they don't CARE if they get jumped by some strange woman while drunk. And again, I'm obviously generalizing. I also don't think anyone thinks a drunk woman is responsible for a man's bad behavior. On the other hand, I don't excuse a drunk woman for HER behavior, like so many others seem to.

Explain to me the fairness of the  law on sexual consent while intoxicated. To me it seems deeply sexist and paternalistic. Women, however drunk THEY GET THEMSELVES, have no responsibility and indeed cannot even give legal consent to sex, even if they very strongly want to. However, the guy who is equally drunk may not use his own drunkenness as any kind of a defense as to why he had sex with her enthusiastic consent. How is that in any way fair or equal? Her drunkenness means she lacks the ability to form an intelligent thought but his drunkenness is deliberately not considered? Either HUMANS are responsible for getting themselves drunk and what they do when drunk or they're not. Which is it?

Men are less choosy in their sexual partners, sure, but most of them would not like to be molested by a woman they have no interest in if they were drunk.  And if they are intersted in the woman, I'm sure they would lose respect for her if she took advantage of them while drunk.  If they were inebriated it would be just as much assault as the other way around so I don't see the sexism.
Note that if a man is drunk or  takes **** and deliberately murders someone, his being high or drunk can be used as a defense. Most likely he'll be found guilty of manslaughter instead. Yet in sex we place all the burden on the male and none on the female to drink responsibility and mind their behavior. That's entirely sexist. I acknowledge that man can be more consequence free if they get drunk in that women are not likely to 'take advantage' of that, but the fact women have more consequences means they ought to be more careful. Unfair? Sure. But that's the way things are.



That's a silly comparison.  A woman drunk and high committing murder could not claim her drunkenness as innocence either.  Again, no sexim.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #253 on: February 09, 2018, 04:08:32 pm »
Yet another group of unsubstantiated assumptions to try and protect men's bad behavior.

I couldn't help notice that your blather didn't contradict anything I said. Congratulations on contributing nothing of interest once again.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #254 on: February 09, 2018, 04:19:29 pm »
And that's what we are all debating here, was Patrick Brown a bumbling man who didn't get it when a woman wasn't into him or was he a predator?  None of us were there but the thing that stands out to me is the fact that a sober man went out of his way to buy drinks and get a young woman drunk.  To me that seems predatory and thereafter I judge his actions as such.  I don't think he was bumbling so much as he is not the kind of man who understands proper male/female etiquette in seeking sex.

And when in life have you ever heard one side of a story accusing someone of wrongdoing which was 100% neutral, accurate, complete and honest? Note in the first case she never claimed he bought her drinks, just that she'd been drinking. I also simply don't believe that a man drops his pants in front of a strange woman, tells her to give him a blowjob, and gets it. Maybe if he's Lebron James, but sure as hell Patrick Brown is not Lebron James.

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Men are less choosy in their sexual partners, sure, but most of them would not like to be molested by a woman they have no interest in if they were drunk.  And if they are intersted in the woman, I'm sure they would lose respect for her if she took advantage of them while drunk.  If they were inebriated it would be just as much assault as the other way around so I don't see the sexism.

Let's get real here. Has it ever happened that a man, waking up to realize he had drunken sex with a drunken woman starts feeling ashamed of himself, then goes to the police to report it? I doubt it ever has or ever would. This law is written with woman-as-victim in mind and man-as-predator. So yes it's sexist. Either neither side had the intellectual ability to consent or both did. If alcohol diminishes your ability to judge so as to make your consent impossible it has to diminish  your judgement to understand consent from the other party.

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That's a silly comparison.  A woman drunk and high committing murder could not claim her drunkenness as innocence either.  Again, no sexim.

Of course she could and would. Our legal system recognizes intent as a primary factor in crime. Since consumption of **** and other drugs and alcohol diminishes the ability to form a proper intent it also diminishes liability in crime. Likewise any other type of mental impairment which interferes with the ability to know what you are doing is criminal can reduce or even eliminate punishment. Since alcohol is adjudged to do just that in just about every single crime that the justice system deals with why was it specifically exempted in the case of sex?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum