Author Topic: Patrick Brown #MeToo  (Read 3922 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #210 on: February 08, 2018, 11:01:49 pm »
We don't really know what he did, it's a he said/she said item at this point. But I wonder why these two women would simply decide to make up such stories just out of the blue.

Even if he did exactly what she claims, so what?   Her version of the story is: they met at a bar in 2007-- he would have been 28 at the time, and she was 18.  After drinks, she and a mutual friend went to Brown's place, and at some point that evening he pulled out his **** and asked for a hummer, and she obliged. As far as I can tell, in regard to this incident the worst Brown is guilty of is being crass.

This may well not be the sort of courtship you'd read about on the society pages, but regarding the facts of the case as the girl herself stated them: what would you like to outlaw here?  Men shouldn't ask for hummers anymore?  People shouldn't date people more than 5 years from their own age?  Maybe the drinking age should be raised to 25? Maybe the age of consent should be raised to 30?    What, precisely, would people like to see done to prevent such tragedies in the future?

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Offline msj

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #211 on: February 08, 2018, 11:13:17 pm »
Agreed.  I would never and have never done anything remotely like what Patrick is accused of doing.  It's creepy.  It's not quite ****, but it's sneaky, aggressive, and just plain rude & inappropriate.

You want sex?  You don't show a woman your dick or jump on top of them and start forcing kisses.  You flirt, then if the woman is receptive you go for 1st base, then if that's receptive you go for 2nd base etc until you get to home base.  Guys who try to go directly to 2nd base etc. without getting the green light to even go to 1st base are a-holes.  Never in my life have I tried to kiss someone without it being pretty clear, via body language, touching/holding hands etc, that the other person wanted it too.

Awww, isn’t that cute: 27 years old and have never kissed a girl!   ;D
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Offline Omni

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #212 on: February 08, 2018, 11:13:53 pm »
Even if he did exactly what she claims, so what?   Her version of the story is: they met at a bar in 2007-- he would have been 28 at the time, and she was 18.  After drinks, she and a mutual friend went to Brown's place, and at some point that evening he pulled out his **** and asked for a hummer, and she obliged. As far as I can tell, in regard to this incident the worst Brown is guilty of is being crass.

This may well not be the sort of courtship you'd read about on the society pages, but regarding the facts of the case as the girl herself stated them: what would you like to outlaw here?  Men shouldn't ask for hummers anymore?  People shouldn't date people more than 5 years from their own age?  Maybe the drinking age should be raised to 25? Maybe the age of consent should be raised to 30?    What, precisely, would people like to see done to prevent such tragedies in the future?

 -k

Perhaps some early education to help guide people not to let the urges that follow puberty to outweigh the idea of respect.

Offline BC_cheque

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #213 on: February 08, 2018, 11:22:14 pm »
Agreed.  I would never and have never done anything remotely like what Patrick is accused of doing.  It's creepy.  It's not quite ****, but it's sneaky, aggressive, and just plain rude & inappropriate.

You want sex?  You don't show a woman your dick or jump on top of them and start forcing kisses.  You flirt, then if the woman is receptive you go for 1st base, then if that's receptive you go for 2nd base etc until you get to home base.  Guys who try to go directly to 2nd base etc. without getting the green light to even go to 1st base are a-holes.  Never in my life have I tried to kiss someone without it being pretty clear, via body language, touching/holding hands etc, that the other person wanted it too.

Bravo. From a woman’s perspective that’s exactly what we want too.

This whole thing about getting a woman drunk to make a move is very date rapey. The rest is just as bad.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #214 on: February 08, 2018, 11:39:56 pm »
Bravo. From a woman’s perspective that’s exactly what we want too.

This whole thing about getting a woman drunk to make a move is very date rapey. The rest is just as bad.

Good to hear.  I agree it's date-rapey, it's exploitative.  Brown wasn't drunk from what I remember.  I grew up being taught that you don't take advantage of women when they're intoxicated, especially if you aren't.

This is all about being a decent human being.  Be a man, a real man.  If you want to get laid, most women are attracted to confident assertive gentlemen who know how to treat a woman right & with respect.  Some gals are attracted to alpha wannabe jerks who treat them like crap, but that doesn't mean you should act like that.
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Online Michael Hardner

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #215 on: February 09, 2018, 06:55:23 am »
My stars, Michael! What did you do? Tell a girl she looked pretty?  Invite her back to your place to listen to your Dick Dale records in hope that you might end up necking later? Squeeze her behind while you were dancing?

Actually, it's not funny to me.  Maybe there is a way to discuss these things but on another thread.

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How can you live with yourself with this sort of thing on your conscience?  Have you discussed any of this with Mrs H?  Do you think she'll forgive you when she finds out??

Yes, she would.

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #216 on: February 09, 2018, 08:37:49 am »
Men will try to get laid. And that's not a problem unless force or intimidation is involved.  The goal here should be to give women the confidence to say "no thank you" when they're not interested, and for men to accept that and move along.


 -k

Men trying to get laid is different then men will do anything to get laid, don't you think?  There should be mutual  interest, not one person seen as guarding the entry, whilst the other one seeks to overcome that guard by any means possible, whether it's begging, bribing, tricking or forcing.  Yes, I know Argus didn't say force, but it's part and parcel of the "do anything to breach the walls" attitude he claims as the natural state of affairs between men and women.

Not to mention the whole idea of men being such slaves to their urges that they'll do whatever it takes to get sex should be anathema to any self-respecting man.  MG's description of mutual interest clearly expressed through body language is what I would describe as the natural state of affairs between people.  Even male animals determine the receptivity of the female before getting it on.  The description provided by Argus is a holdover from the Christian tradition which forbade female sexual interest and strongly discouraged men from seeking any but procreative sex from their wives.   "Fun" sex was had with prostitutes.  His description reeks of disrespect for women generally and especially women who give up the gate too easily, and it also demeans men.

I don't think Brown should go to jail, or even be charged from what I understand what happened.   But he sure as hell shouldn't get a pass because he's just a man clumsily doing what men do, which was getting some however he could.




Offline cybercoma

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #217 on: February 09, 2018, 09:21:34 am »
It matters because this is a legal adult who made her own choices.  She didn't get dragged in off the street against her will.  She was of the age of majority and bears her own responsibility for underage drinking, as well as other decisions she made that night.

 -k
Oh, are you one of those people who blame women for being assaulted or harassed when they drink or dress inappropriately? Gross.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #218 on: February 09, 2018, 09:23:40 am »
Agreed.  I would never and have never done anything remotely like what Patrick is accused of doing.  It's creepy.  It's not quite ****, but it's sneaky, aggressive, and just plain rude & inappropriate.

You want sex?  You don't show a woman your dick or jump on top of them and start forcing kisses.  You flirt, then if the woman is receptive you go for 1st base, then if that's receptive you go for 2nd base etc until you get to home base.  Guys who try to go directly to 2nd base etc. without getting the green light to even go to 1st base are a-holes.  Never in my life have I tried to kiss someone without it being pretty clear, via body language, touching/holding hands etc, that the other person wanted it too.
This is that "radical" idea that women are human beings with their own thoughts, feelings, and motivation, not just a means to an end. I can't believe there's people who would turn this basic principle into some sort of partisan and politicized idea. It's disgusting.
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Offline Rue

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #219 on: February 09, 2018, 09:48:03 am »
Oh, are you one of those people who blame women for being assaulted or harassed when they drink or dress inappropriately? Gross.

How about you read what she wrote. I 100% stand by everything she said on this thread. You clearly have not read what she wrote or understood it and this is precisely why I don't just challenge
but now ridicule what you said. You did not read what she wrote and you come on this forum part of a group that have precisely done what you accuse others have, turned this issue into a partisan one.

Omni and MH have made unfounded accusations, out and out lies that Brown used his employment status and or physical force to compel women into sex and booze. Those are lies.

This issue is being presented that way precisely because Brown is a "Conservative". I couldn't care less what his political affiliation is.

The issue was and remains about consent. The young women who went back to his home have a responsibility to control their bodies and their safety over their bodies. It must begin and end with them on an individual level. Your patronizing attitude acts as if its up to a man to decide that. So of course you can't grasp her point or mine.

I spent 30 years dealing with sex crimes. I read now a bunch of pathetic boys jumping all over one another in the name of politically correct posturing presuming to reduce this issue to what a man does.

You don't get it. Brown did not force himself on anyone. Had he, then he would belong in jail. He did not. He did not force himself on anyone. Therefore it becomes a matter of choice, of individual choice, and women will decide when and where they will go and if they learn from certain mistakes they will but they don't and can't learn from mistakes if they put themselves in dangerous positions and then do not examine the choices they made to see if they could have done something safer.

That's the reality of the world we live in. You haven't had to sit in a room with a rapist and get in their head as I have. They are people who use power and access. Those are the two operative words, power and access.

They place themselves in positions where they have access to the vulnerable. Then they use their power, money, body size, job position perhaps to force themselves on their target. You and the rest of your
moral saint pack have no proof, not an ounce of proof Brown used power, money or his body to force his way to have sex. None. Zero. Yet you take a second hand news story, which is called heresay evidence, which has never been corroborated, and you react like true SA Nazi Brown shirts. Your cause is righteous and you will persecute Brown.

How does that empower the woman who made a bad decision to go to his house? How does that help her? It doesn't,. It helps your ego because you engage in a competition with Brown as to who has the better **** and uses it better. You are just a miserable boy who senses someone is down and you can jump on this person to make yourself feel better.

The woman who went to his house needs to make better judgements. She needs to undersrtand that if she drinks she is vulnerable. She needs to learn that if she goes to a man's house alone, especially to his bed-room that choice she made is dangerous. That is what she needs to learn from her father, mother, friends, strong role models. She needs to learn her body is her body and her choices as to it begin and end with her, not you, not me, not MH.

My role as a man with my daughters is to empower them to make proper individual choices. My role as a teacher is to do the same with female and male students equally. My role as a prosecutor was to put rapists in jail not make myself feel superior to them.  My moral judgments would not help society. Next, when I have worked in therapy groups with violent men I don't judge them. Moral judgment means phack all. Its a matter of explaining what happens when they choose to impose power or force without consent of an equal partner. Moral judgment? Bull ****. Its about explaining to men or women, a simple rule, treat people as you want to be treated.

All of you are so busy preaching morality you can't see the basic issue Kimmy is talking about or for that matter the basic facts. As Sir J has tried to say, men have a prime instinct a sexual drive. Its inherent. Its born within us. If we do not learn to repress it, chaos ensues and a stable society can not be built. That is the most basic and fundamental of psychological and religious concepts. Religion was created to repress the sexual drive and create for it rules so that men would not kill each other fighting for the same mate. Where religion went off the track was in deciding to portray women as the source of evil, of temptation and their bodies as something to cover up and subject. It missed the actual point which is if we respect and have a healthy attitude about a woman's body, we don't ****. You boys screaming for Brown's head (both his heads actually) still haven't understood the basic point. He behaved exactly as you have and will continue to behave. You will continue to behave that way until instead of seeing Brown as detached from you-you understand every God damn one of us males has made mistakes with women and need to learn from them and it doesn't mean we are evil, rapists, etc.

Now go on and continue with your moral indignation and now presuming to tell a woman how she must understand her body. Good luck.
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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #220 on: February 09, 2018, 09:50:03 am »
This is that "radical" idea that women are human beings with their own thoughts, feelings, and motivation,

Just not when they've had a beer or two, right?

Offline Rue

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #221 on: February 09, 2018, 10:00:27 am »
Men trying to get laid is different then men will do anything to get laid, don't you think?  There should be mutual  interest, not one person seen as guarding the entry, whilst the other one seeks to overcome that guard by any means possible, whether it's begging, bribing, tricking or forcing.  Yes, I know Argus didn't say force, but it's part and parcel of the "do anything to breach the walls" attitude he claims as the natural state of affairs between men and women.

Not to mention the whole idea of men being such slaves to their urges that they'll do whatever it takes to get sex should be anathema to any self-respecting man.  MG's description of mutual interest clearly expressed through body language is what I would describe as the natural state of affairs between people.  Even male animals determine the receptivity of the female before getting it on.  The description provided by Argus is a holdover from the Christian tradition which forbade female sexual interest and strongly discouraged men from seeking any but procreative sex from their wives.   "Fun" sex was had with prostitutes.  His description reeks of disrespect for women generally and especially women who give up the gate too easily, and it also demeans men.

I don't think Brown should go to jail, or even be charged from what I understand what happened.   But he sure as hell shouldn't get a pass because he's just a man clumsily doing what men do, which was getting some however he could.


Hang on. J, Kimmy, I, do not justify any man's stupid actions. What SJ said is men have a primal sexual urge. That is an inherent fact. It does and can make some men slaves to it if they don't learn to control it and learn how to express it in a healthy way.  Men who do not learn that their sexual urges are healthy, men who struggle to deal with their sexuality are quick to dettach any unresolved or on going sex issues and place them on an external other male and project their anxieties over their unresolved issues on that male. Its what we do. We men try avoid our own unresolved sexual behaviour issues by making them exist in someone else and pissing on that person. Why do I say that-30 years of being in a room one on one with violent men and rapists. It aint rocket science. Its what I learned simply from listening.

Some men will do anything to get laid yes. That is reality. Don't tell me as a father with daughters I should not teach my daughters that. I did. I taught them respect for their bodies and what they do with them begins and ends with them-they can never ever depend on a man to understand that. That is what SJ was getting at.

My contempt at some of the responses on this board has been laid wide open because I know that those of us who scream the loudest pointing out the behaviour of others have our own unresolved issues.

You know what mine is? Its going to sleep knowing how many rapists walked out the door I was sitting with and I could do sweet phack all. It doesn't mean ****. I have to now teach both men and women as a teacher the exact same things-treat others as you would have them treat you-the basic basic fundamental rule of fairness.

Moral preaching-not from me. I am in no position to preach. I got blood all over my hands that won't wash off. Its part of the job. You clean toilets, its hard to ever fully think you have or will ever have clean hands and that is o.k. I chose that profession. I just don't think any of us help such issues playing at being saints.
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guest4

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #222 on: February 09, 2018, 10:13:44 am »

Hang on. J, Kimmy, I, do not justify any man's stupid actions. What SJ said is men have a primal sexual urge.
He is also saying that it is up to women to 'control' that for men by being 'gatekeepers'.  How can you keep supporting such a backassward attitude?

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That is an inherent fact. It does and can make some men slaves to it if they don't learn to control it and learn how to express it in a healthy way.
 
He offers it up in this thread and in other threads as if there is nothing we can really do it about it, it's merely a fact of life - men are **** and violent; it's up to women to adjust their actions to account for that.  How can you support such a backasswards attitude?

How about you offer support to the men here who say men do not have the excuse of being slaves to their urges?  How about we support the idea that women also have urges, no less inherently sexual and primal than men - that their role isn't 'gatekeeper' against men's unrestrained sexual drive?    How about we make men responsible for themselves, instead of talking about how they have a primal drive that is only stopped by a woman's virtue?   Maybe, if that had happened at some point in the last 150 years, you wouldn't have had to sit through so many **** trials, and maybe we wouldn't be seeing men being pilloried for being jackasses, or have to warn our daughters about date **** drugs.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #223 on: February 09, 2018, 11:08:39 am »
Right.  From the guy who purports to know what women in hijabs think and feel, what progressives think and what they'll do, and all about women's sexual interest.  At least I keep my "mind reading" limited to a single person

I don't need to mind read nor even use my own experience. There is a massive amount of academic studies and surveys about male and female interactions and sexual interests, fantasies and desires out there.

And must you bring your outrage about my not respecting your religion into every **** conversation?
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Patrick Brown #MeToo
« Reply #224 on: February 09, 2018, 11:10:07 am »
Again, I don't think pouring booze into an under age girl you plan to have sex with is hardly flirting. At least not in my town.

Then don't do that. Brown didn't do it, but you talk about it a lot like, well, maybe that was your thing back in the day...
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