Author Topic: Ontario Provincial Election 2018  (Read 6567 times)

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Offline TimG

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #780 on: August 10, 2018, 12:38:25 am »
You think Chinese don't know how to handle money? And as the article points out it doesn't take much to build a charging/swap station. Much simpler than building a gas station for sure.
1) You need land in good locations - not cheap in Chinese cities;
2) You need capital to pay for enough spare batteries to handle your expected turnover which are generally expensive;
3) You need grid connections to charge banks of batteries - not cheap and potentially technically difficult depending on the local grid.
4) The potential customer base is limited to people who purchase a vehicle from the maker which makes it much tougher to recover the costs from 1, 2 and 3.

Gas stations require the land but have a much much greater customer base, lower capital requirements and do not require upgrades to the electrical grid.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 12:46:06 am by TimG »

Offline TimG

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #781 on: August 10, 2018, 12:42:13 am »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #782 on: August 10, 2018, 12:50:33 am »
1) You need land in good locations - not cheap in Chinese cities;
2) You need capital to pay for the batteries which are generally expensive;
3) Providing grid connections needed for charging banks of batteries - not cheap and potentially technically difficult depending on the local grid.
4) The potential customer base is limited to people who purchase a vehicle from the maker which makes it much tougher to recover the costs from 1 2 and 4.

Gas stations require the land but have a much much greater customer base and the capital requirements and do not require upgrades to the electrical grid.

1. How much land do you think it would take to run some wires into a charger and stack some batteries? As opposed to a gas station which for starters has to have a bunch of tanks plunked in the ground which will likely eventually leak.
2. As the article points out, if you will need to use the battery swap then you pay a fee which of course would be to cover the cost of the batteries and the use of the swap stations.
3. see #1
4. see#2 and btw, car batteries are car batteries. I have a mazda truck and a gmc truck. Can't really see a lot of difference in the batteries. Easy enough to make EV batteries the same way.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #783 on: August 10, 2018, 01:09:31 am »
30 years ago you took your propane tank in to get it refilled, today that is the exception.

Swap stations are highly compatible with solar energy.

Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #784 on: August 10, 2018, 01:17:20 am »
30 years ago you took your propane tank in to get it refilled, today that is the exception.

Swap stations are highly compatible with solar energy.

Sure. Feed solar in during the day and when the voltage drops below a certain level come evening, click, on comes the grid. 

Offline TimG

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #785 on: August 10, 2018, 01:35:47 am »
30 years ago you took your propane tank in to get it refilled, today that is the exception.
A propane tank is <$5 to manufacture. EV batteries are >4K. It is completely different cost structure.

Swap stations are highly compatible with solar energy.
Only if you can't do math. A battery swap station that handled 10 cars/hour would need 300KW of continuous power.  300KW of solar panels is 1000 2mx1m solar panels or about 20,000 square feet of unobstructed real estate for panels that could only deliver the power requirements some of the time. This kind of station requires direct connection to reliable grid power. If you assume you have 240 batteries that are charged during peak solar you would need ~1M of solar power over an 8 hour period to charge the batteries needed for the next day. That is a lot of power that requires some hefty grid connections - and that is just for one station. More importantly, you would need the back up fossil fuel plants to supply that 1M on cloudy days since commuters don't stop driving because the sun is obscured.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 02:17:11 am by TimG »
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #786 on: August 13, 2018, 02:04:22 pm »
Mulcair moved rightward fiscally, because the big rap on the NDP was they couldn't be trusted with money, and it paid dividends. I'm not entirely what broke their hopes because it looked like they might actually win. Then suddenly it was all reversed and Trudeau pushed far ahead. But Trudeau's policies definitely were meant to appeal to NDP voters. No worries about spending cuts, more social programs, more identity politics.
The bottom fell out for the NDP because Mulcair was insincere. He was not a social democrat, let alone a democratic socialist. He couldn't appeal to the NDP base, so they abandoned the party and put their support behind the only federal party that was offering a platform that contained policy elements similar to what the Scandinavian countries are doing: The Green Party. Those swing voters who were only flirting with the NDP and had no interest in social democracy found a strong and likeable leader in Trudeau. Mulcair was lacking in both charisma to compete with Trudeau and the sincerity he needed to compete with May.

Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #787 on: August 13, 2018, 02:35:13 pm »
A propane tank is <$5 to manufacture. EV batteries are >4K. It is completely different cost structure.
Only if you can't do math. A battery swap station that handled 10 cars/hour would need 300KW of continuous power.  300KW of solar panels is 1000 2mx1m solar panels or about 20,000 square feet of unobstructed real estate for panels that could only deliver the power requirements some of the time. This kind of station requires direct connection to reliable grid power. If you assume you have 240 batteries that are charged during peak solar you would need ~1M of solar power over an 8 hour period to charge the batteries needed for the next day. That is a lot of power that requires some hefty grid connections - and that is just for one station. More importantly, you would need the back up fossil fuel plants to supply that 1M on cloudy days since commuters don't stop driving because the sun is obscured.

Average cost of a gallon of gas in Washington State just under $3.00. Equivalent cost of charging an EV battery, $.84 cents. Oh but this will never catch on eh?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #788 on: August 13, 2018, 04:20:37 pm »
The bottom fell out for the NDP because Mulcair was insincere. He was not a social democrat, let alone a democratic socialist. He couldn't appeal to the NDP base, so they abandoned the party and put their support behind the only federal party that was offering a platform that contained policy elements similar to what the Scandinavian countries are doing: The Green Party. Those swing voters who were only flirting with the NDP and had no interest in social democracy found a strong and likeable leader in Trudeau. Mulcair was lacking in both charisma to compete with Trudeau and the sincerity he needed to compete with May.

But Mulcair was appealing to a lot of centrist and centre-left voters who usually vote Liberal. That's why they shot to number one in the polls. But I think once the election started Trudeau had more to offer in the form of easily explained policies that promised people lots of stuff. The Conservatives, by contrast, offered nothing but more of the same. The NDP didn't have a lot to offer since they wanted to keep the budget balanced. Trudeau simply had more to spend. It's not a coincidence every seat east of Quebec went Liberal.

I have been an admirer of the Scandinavian countries for a long time, but their ability to offer up extremely generous social programs without a ton of people stopping work to take advantage of that was based largely on them having small, homogenous communities with strong work ethics, great schools, and a sense of personal responsibility. Those are wavering now as a result of mass immigration and as a result they're having to cut back on the generosity.

You can't have mass immigration and a generous welfare state  together.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #789 on: August 13, 2018, 04:41:47 pm »
But Mulcair was appealing to a lot of centrist and centre-left voters who usually vote Liberal. That's why they shot to number one in the polls. But I think once the election started Trudeau had more to offer in the form of easily explained policies that promised people lots of stuff. The Conservatives, by contrast, offered nothing but more of the same. The NDP didn't have a lot to offer since they wanted to keep the budget balanced. Trudeau simply had more to spend. It's not a coincidence every seat east of Quebec went Liberal.

I have been an admirer of the Scandinavian countries for a long time, but their ability to offer up extremely generous social programs without a ton of people stopping work to take advantage of that was based largely on them having small, homogenous communities with strong work ethics, great schools, and a sense of personal responsibility. Those are wavering now as a result of mass immigration and as a result they're having to cut back on the generosity.

You can't have mass immigration and a generous welfare state  together.

Scandinavia is taking its lead on immigration from Canada.

In contrast, Canada is usually described as a policy “borrower.”

But in the area of immigration and integration policies, the relationship has turned on its head. Canada is the policy lender; Scandinavia the policy borrower.

As immigration novices, Denmark, Norway and Sweden have been searching for inspiration and new solutions abroad. And the Canadian immigration and integration policy model is attracting avid interest.

In fact, the Canadian model has played a significant role in the Scandinavian reform process since the early 2000s.

In particular, Canada’s positive view of “immigrants as a resource” has served to inspire new attitudes towards labour immigration in Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

https://bravecanada.ca/canada-is-inspiring-scandinavian-countries-on-immigration/

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #790 on: August 13, 2018, 07:02:41 pm »
In fact, the Canadian model has played a significant role in the Scandinavian reform process since the early 2000s.

Indeed? And what impact has this had on their society and politics?

Btw, Denmark recently banned the wearing of Burkas in public...

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #791 on: August 13, 2018, 07:46:03 pm »
The bottom fell out for the NDP because Mulcair was insincere. He was not a social democrat, let alone a democratic socialist. He couldn't appeal to the NDP base, so they abandoned the party and put their support behind the only federal party that was offering a platform that contained policy elements similar to what the Scandinavian countries are doing: The Green Party. Those swing voters who were only flirting with the NDP and had no interest in social democracy found a strong and likeable leader in Trudeau. Mulcair was lacking in both charisma to compete with Trudeau and the sincerity he needed to compete with May.

A lot of what you said is true, like Mulcair lacking sincerity, but what I remember, like a lot of elections in the past ~10 years, is that people just wanted the incumbent Harper gone, so everyone who was a swing voter jumped on the ship likeliest to get them there, which were the Liberals.

I remember the election before that, where the "orange crush" came and everyone jumped off the Liberal train and hopped on the NDP train shortly before the election because it had some momentum to be the "oppose Harper" party on the left since nobody seemed to want to vote for Iggy & the Libs got decimated.

A lot of strategic voting in Canada these days.  Polls swinging wildly close to before the election.  Same thing happened in Alberta, the NDP gained 25 points in the polls in the last month.
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Offline Boges

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #792 on: August 15, 2018, 11:52:16 am »
The Thread Drift is strong with this thread. I guess people are largely over any issues with the DoFo government.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #793 on: August 15, 2018, 11:59:00 am »
The Thread Drift is strong with this thread. I guess people are largely over any issues with the DoFo government.

The thread is about the election. There are other discussions about DoFo government blunders.

Offline Boges

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Re: Ontario Provincial Election 2018
« Reply #794 on: August 15, 2018, 12:22:52 pm »
None lately.

I kind of gave an overview of my thoughts on the most pressing issues that's been brought up.

The two that are getting Progressives worked up are the Toronto City Council and the Sex Ed Curriculum. Both issues that aren't going to make DoFo lose any elections in the future.