Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 9254 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #210 on: December 13, 2018, 04:48:12 pm »
Uhm, not listening again. I said that Ford didn't take the Liberals word, but he also didn't take the AG word either. Ford, just like Harris/Eves is lying just as much as the Liberals ever did.

Ford will be judged by whether he can significantly reduce the deficit. So far I'm not impressed. But he'll have to a one hell of a long way to outdoor the blanket incompetence and corruption of your girl Kathleen.

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You know my 'party' has never been the Liberals. The only time I voted Liberal since the 80's was the 2015 federal election, forced into that position by the lying Harper and his cabal.

And yet you'll fight to the death against anyone who dares say one thing against Liberal party policy.
**** off. You're a devoted Liberal.
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Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #211 on: December 14, 2018, 05:51:05 am »
**** off. You're a devoted Liberal.

This strikes me as a cool license plate framer or door mat.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #212 on: December 14, 2018, 05:54:18 am »
One thing I am learning from work and my Agile training is that management, left to its own, will always misalign with what is needed.  To me this is government, ALL government, in spades.

Why the 'left' believes that armies of office workers and overstaffed service is good for the people is beyond me.  They react that way because conservatives cut benefits from the poor when they come into office.

I think it will be a lot better when we start aligning our services with what people want. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #213 on: December 14, 2018, 11:16:19 am »
Why the 'left' believes that armies of office workers and overstaffed service is good for the people is beyond me.  They react that way because conservatives cut benefits from the poor when they come into office.

That you would lay the blame for the Left's fiscal mismanagement on conservatives 'cutting benefits to the poor' is laughably one-sided.

The only reason conservatives cut services is because liberals run up deficits to buy votes. And since most of the services government spends on (which it has the ability to cut) are for the poor, or various forms of income redistribution, that does affect the poor. When Chretien fought the deficit he did so by slashing social transfer funds, which disproportionately impacted the poor. There is no way to cut government spending without disproportionately impacting the poor.

I am not poor. I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice. The only way they impact me is by raising my taxes, which has happened frequently under the Liberals in both Ottawa and Toronto. But generally* once the Tories get in the Liberals have run the economy into the ground, and there's little room left to raise taxes. If Trudeau gets elected again next year, as is likely, then by the time the Tories do get in we can expect to have an even more massive debt load, higher taxes, and an economy in tatters. So again, they'll have to cut services, and that will impact the poor a lot more than me.

*The exception being Chretien. That, though, was an exceptional circumstance. Having no vision, and no interest in helping people, Chretien withheld spending as long as the right was divided. You see, Liberals only spend money to buy votes, and he had no need to do so. Thus when Harper took over there was no need to slash spending 'on the poor'. In fact, according to the PBO Harper's government made a series of progressive tax changes which disproportionately benefited the poor at the expense of the rich.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #214 on: December 14, 2018, 12:22:40 pm »
That you would lay the blame for the Left's fiscal mismanagement on conservatives 'cutting benefits to the poor' is laughably one-sided.

The only reason conservatives cut services is because liberals run up deficits to buy votes. And since most of the services government spends on (which it has the ability to cut) are for the poor, or various forms of income redistribution, that does affect the poor. When Chretien fought the deficit he did so by slashing social transfer funds, which disproportionately impacted the poor. There is no way to cut government spending without disproportionately impacting the poor.

I am not poor. I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice. The only way they impact me is by raising my taxes, which has happened frequently under the Liberals in both Ottawa and Toronto. But generally* once the Tories get in the Liberals have run the economy into the ground, and there's little room left to raise taxes. If Trudeau gets elected again next year, as is likely, then by the time the Tories do get in we can expect to have an even more massive debt load, higher taxes, and an economy in tatters. So again, they'll have to cut services, and that will impact the poor a lot more than me.

*The exception being Chretien. That, though, was an exceptional circumstance. Having no vision, and no interest in helping people, Chretien withheld spending as long as the right was divided. You see, Liberals only spend money to buy votes, and he had no need to do so. Thus when Harper took over there was no need to slash spending 'on the poor'. In fact, according to the PBO Harper's government made a series of progressive tax changes which disproportionately benefited the poor at the expense of the rich.

According to the PBO Harper did exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

According to estimates by the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO), the tax cuts implemented by the Harper government from 2005 to 2013 result in an annual loss to the federal government of $17.1 billion of personal income taxes, $13.3 billion of GST revenues and $13 billion in corporate income taxes for a total annual revenue loss of $43.5 billion. And this does not include all of the tax changes made by the Conservative government over this period, or others made since.

However, these cuts alone mean that the federal government now has $44 billion less each year to deal with issues such as rising health care and post-secondary education costs, funding for early childhood education, education in First Nations communities, poverty reduction, replacement of decaying infrastructure, meat and railway inspectors, affordable housing, improving water supply and so on.

https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/robbing-the-poor-to-give-to-the-rich
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #215 on: December 14, 2018, 03:38:18 pm »
According to the PBO Harper did exactly the opposite of what you suggest.

Oh, this should be good. You're going to tell me now that the Harper government slashed spending on the poor, right?

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According to estimates by the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO), the tax cuts implemented by the Harper government from 2005 to 2013 result in an annual loss to the federal government of $17.1 billion of personal income taxes, $13.3 billion of GST revenues and $13 billion in corporate income taxes for a total annual revenue loss of $43.5 billion. And this does not include all of the tax changes made by the Conservative government over this period, or others made since.

This irrelevant piece of data from a radical left web site has basically NOTHING to do with what I said. Go back to my post, find someone to read it and explain it to you.

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However, these cuts alone mean that the federal government now has $44 billion less each year to deal with issues such as rising health care and post-secondary education costs, funding for early childhood education, education in First Nations communities, poverty reduction, replacement of decaying infrastructure, meat and railway inspectors, affordable housing, improving water supply and so on.

Uhm, well, total bullshit, of course. And it ignores the fact Trudeau cut taxes to 'the middle class' to buy votes, cut the Tory government's responsible pledge to raise the pension payout age by a couple of years (as most western countries have done), and increased spending on a wide variety of 'social infrastructure' plans without raising taxes to pay for them. Further, the Tory tax cuts helped ease our economy's downfall in the recession. We're not in a recession any more, so why does Trudeau not increase the GST? How can you be so hypocritical about the Tories lowering taxes but not utter a single word of condemnation for Trudeau not raising them back up again?

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #216 on: December 14, 2018, 03:41:32 pm »
Oh, this should be good. You're going to tell me now that the Harper government slashed spending on the poor, right?

This irrelevant piece of data from a radical left web site has basically NOTHING to do with what I said. Go back to my post, find someone to read it and explain it to you.

Uhm, well, total bullshit, of course. And it ignores the fact Trudeau cut taxes to 'the middle class' to buy votes, cut the Tory government's responsible pledge to raise the pension payout age by a couple of years (as most western countries have done), and increased spending on a wide variety of 'social infrastructure' plans without raising taxes to pay for them. Further, the Tory tax cuts helped ease our economy's downfall in the recession. We're not in a recession any more, so why does Trudeau not increase the GST? How can you be so hypocritical about the Tories lowering taxes but not utter a single word of condemnation for Trudeau not raising them back up again?

I think I'll take the report from the PBO over yours. Thanks for trying though.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #217 on: December 14, 2018, 03:46:03 pm »
We're not in a recession any more, so why does Trudeau not increase the GST? How can you be so hypocritical about the Tories lowering taxes but not utter a single word of condemnation for Trudeau not raising them back up again?

The problem is that it would become a "build the wall", "lock her up", rally cry at right wing hate fests. I always blame McGuinty for not spending the hundreds of billions needed to fix the Harris hydro mistakes, but all we get from the right wing crowd is that hydro is 100% McGunity's fault and no recognition that it was a disaster planned by Harris.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #218 on: December 14, 2018, 05:18:16 pm »
That you would lay the blame for the Left's fiscal mismanagement on conservatives 'cutting benefits to the poor' is laughably one-sided.

I really don't think I did that.

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The only reason conservatives cut services is because liberals run up deficits to buy votes.

Right.

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And since most of the services government spends on (which it has the ability to cut) are for the poor, or various forms of income redistribution, that does affect the poor. When Chretien fought the deficit he did so by slashing social transfer funds, which disproportionately impacted the poor. There is no way to cut government spending without disproportionately impacting the poor.

I don't see it that way.  They cut the poor because it's easy and doesn't cost them votes with their base is one explanation.  But I'm open to this ... Not sure why it goes that way.

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I am not poor. I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice.

Sorry, not true.  You are overstating here.
 
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*The exception being Chretien. That, though, was an exceptional circumstance. Having no vision, and no interest in helping people, Chretien withheld spending as long as the right was divided. You see, Liberals only spend money to buy votes, and he had no need to do so. Thus when Harper took over there was no need to slash spending 'on the poor'. In fact, according to the PBO Harper's government made a series of progressive tax changes which disproportionately benefited the poor at the expense of the rich.

I think that was Martin.  Martin restructured EI in a way that didn't cost votes and didn't destroy people.  It was hard on seasonal workers but it flew, politically.  Again, I'm open to looking at it ...

---------

My point is not to criticize conservatives but liberals also.  Having managed projects for decades, I can tell you that anyone "in the know" can figure out a way to deliver more with less.  Liberal friends would kill me but Rob Ford was right: there is a gravy train.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #219 on: December 14, 2018, 05:31:00 pm »
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I benefit from precisely ZERO government programs or subsidies. The federal and provincial governments could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice.

What a painfully ignorant and hyperbolic statement. 

  • So you would test your own food imports for safety?  Check for mad cow in that Alberta beef?  You would ensure those chickens coming from the farm are safe to eat?
  • You would fix part of the highway when it gets a pothole?
  • You could ensure your car isn't polluting the air all by yourself?
  • You don't use any imports ever?  All your goods come from your local manufacturers, farmers and producers? 
  • Any medications you use will be tested for safety by....  you?
  • You want to join the private militia to do patrols in your neighbourhood and stand guard at the border? 
  • I guess this same private militia will make sure the prison system works and conduct trials and hangings of criminals as needed?

« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 05:40:19 pm by the_squid »
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #220 on: December 14, 2018, 07:19:29 pm »
However, these cuts alone mean that the federal government now has $44 billion less each year to deal with issues such as rising health care and post-secondary education costs, funding for early childhood education, education in First Nations communities, poverty reduction, replacement of decaying infrastructure, meat and railway inspectors, affordable housing, improving water supply and so on.

Most of the things you mentioned, the federal government has no jurisdiction over.  Health care and education, for instance.

But ya, the tax cuts were dumb, we should have used the tax revenue to pay down the debt a bit...at least until the recession hit.
I queef, therefore I am.
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Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #221 on: December 14, 2018, 07:22:57 pm »
What a painfully ignorant and hyperbolic statement.   

Didn't SJ work as a contractor for the government ?  Certainly fomenting a viable business environment for us to work in is something the government deserves credit for, even if you are cynical about them.  There are more Venezuelas, North Koreas and Qatars in the world than Canadas.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #222 on: December 14, 2018, 07:46:14 pm »
    What a painfully ignorant and hyperbolic statement. 

    Oh bite me, pedant.

    Quote
    ]So you would test your own food imports for safety?  Check for mad cow in that Alberta beef?  You would ensure those chickens coming from the farm are safe to eat?[/li]

    [li]You would fix part of the highway when it gets a pothole? [/li]

    [li]You could ensure your car isn't polluting the air all by yourself?[/li]

    [li]You don't use any imports ever?  All your goods come from your local manufacturers, farmers and producers?  [/li]

    [li]Any medications you use will be tested for safety by....  you?[/li]

    [li]You want to join the private militia to do patrols in your neighbourhood and stand guard at the border?  [/li]

    [li]I guess this same private militia will make sure the prison system works and conduct trials and hangings of criminals as needed?[/li][/list]



    What I said was I benefit from no government programs - not that I don't benefit from anything the government does. I do not get any sort of moneys or subsidies from either level of government. I benefit no more than say, a long term visitor or temporary foreign worker. There is nothing government can cut which will really impact me at that kind of level. As opposed to poorer people who are recipients of various income redistribution efforts, and various other efforts at providing them with better lives.
    « Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 07:53:07 pm by SirJohn »
    "When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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    Offline SirJohn

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    Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
    « Reply #223 on: December 14, 2018, 07:48:02 pm »
    Didn't SJ work as a contractor for the government ?  Certainly fomenting a viable business environment for us to work in is something the government deserves credit for, even if you are cynical about them.  There are more Venezuelas, North Koreas and Qatars in the world than Canadas.

    In point of fact 95% of my money comes from foreign sources. And I work on my computer. I could relocate to the Virgin Islands and continue working as I am (and have considered it)
    "When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

    Offline SirJohn

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    Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
    « Reply #224 on: December 14, 2018, 07:49:17 pm »
    Most of the things you mentioned, the federal government has no jurisdiction over.  Health care and education, for instance.

    But ya, the tax cuts were dumb, we should have used the tax revenue to pay down the debt a bit...at least until the recession hit.

    I agree. I was against the cuts at the time and said so. For me, paying down the debt is number one. Unfortunately, they used it as an election ploy and Canadians being whores, it certainly got them a number of votes. I don't think they really needed it, though.
    "When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum