Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 9254 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2018, 10:51:42 am »
I suppose if the federal government did lose the Ford court case, they could just use the Nothwithstanding Clause.   No one would have an issue with that, right?

That would depend on the clarity of the court's response in following constitutional norms. The question does not appear to be as clear-cut as our cites would indicate.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/trudeau-had-better-find-out-if-his-carbon-tax-backstop-is-actually-legal
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 11:25:31 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2018, 10:53:05 am »
It is considered to be a bad ruling by most experts, at the same time this whole thing is just a spiteful attempt to stick it to Toronto city council, it could have waited.  It's a silly reason to use the NWC, even if you disagree with the ruling, ford was kind of asking for it.

I generally agree with this. The problem I have is that it's not up to a judge to give him what he's asking for. That's the voters' job.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2018, 11:12:06 am »
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

The reason the court granted the stay was because they thought the judge's ruling was stupid.
In more polite language:

“The application judge’s interpretation appears to stretch both the wording and the purpose of s. 2(b) beyond the limits of that provision,” the ruling reads.

“The question for the courts is not whether Bill 5 is unfair but whether it is unconstitutional. On that crucial question, we have concluded that there is a strong likelihood that application judge erred in law and that the Attorney-General’s appeal to this court will succeed.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ontario-court-of-appeal-sides-with-premier-ford/

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2018, 11:47:21 am »
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

The reason the court granted the stay was because they thought the judge's ruling was stupid.
In more polite language:

“The application judge’s interpretation appears to stretch both the wording and the purpose of s. 2(b) beyond the limits of that provision,” the ruling reads.

“The question for the courts is not whether Bill 5 is unfair but whether it is unconstitutional. On that crucial question, we have concluded that there is a strong likelihood that application judge erred in law and that the Attorney-General’s appeal to this court will succeed.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ontario-court-of-appeal-sides-with-premier-ford/

So you don't care if the bill (5) is unfair as long as it goes forward in support of the REAL "overreach" by your buddy DoFo. We'll see how "stupid" the ruling was when it hits the SCC. And I'd be careful of trying your usual approach of presuming to speak for "most Canadians" because polls already show they don't agree with Ford.

Offline wilber

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2018, 12:06:14 pm »
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

The reason the court granted the stay was because they thought the judge's ruling was stupid.
In more polite language:

“The application judge’s interpretation appears to stretch both the wording and the purpose of s. 2(b) beyond the limits of that provision,” the ruling reads.

“The question for the courts is not whether Bill 5 is unfair but whether it is unconstitutional. On that crucial question, we have concluded that there is a strong likelihood that application judge erred in law and that the Attorney-General’s appeal to this court will succeed.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ontario-court-of-appeal-sides-with-premier-ford/

So now judges are the good guys? How things change.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2018, 03:01:39 pm »
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay ...

Wow...  the system works.  Do you agree?

Now the legislation is just an awful, rushed legislation that serves DoFo's personal vendetta against the Toronto Council...   I suppose those darn lefties will just keep whining!   ::)


Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #141 on: September 19, 2018, 03:26:31 pm »
That would depend on the clarity of the court's response in following constitutional norms. The question does not appear to be as clear-cut as our cites would indicate.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/trudeau-had-better-find-out-if-his-carbon-tax-backstop-is-actually-legal

The energy company insider who wrote the op-ed has what expertise in fed-prov division of powers?  His opinion is far less convincing than legal opinions of Constitutional experts. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2018, 03:30:09 pm »
So you don't care if the bill (5) is unfair as long as it goes forward in support of the REAL "overreach" by your buddy DoFo.

Not really, no. It's a minor thing which impacts almost nobody in Ontario and costs the Ontario taxpayer nothing. Do I think it was done in a thoughtful way? No. Did you really expect Doug Ford to do things quietly, carefully, and by following all procedures?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #143 on: September 19, 2018, 03:33:31 pm »
So now judges are the good guys? How things change.

How has anything I've said changed? How does my statement here differ from the one yesterday where I pointed out that I certainly believe judges have a role to play in refereeing powers between levels of government and the constitutionality of legislation?

My problem was not that a judge ruled against Ford. My problem was the ludicrous overreach of that judgement. Something which concerned you NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST., for some reason. You seem to be of the mentality that if a guy in a black robe tells you to cut your throat you'll shrug and go get a knife. Some of us are a little more independent of mind. We like to see the judgement and consider whether it meets the test of logic and applicability.

Everything I said about the judgement was born out by what the appeals court judges said. Maybe you should examine your own position and ask why you're such a mindless, unthinking, obedient drone to whatever a judge says.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline wilber

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #144 on: September 19, 2018, 03:53:58 pm »
How has anything I've said changed? How does my statement here differ from the one yesterday where I pointed out that I certainly believe judges have a role to play in refereeing powers between levels of government and the constitutionality of legislation?

My problem was not that a judge ruled against Ford. My problem was the ludicrous overreach of that judgement. Something which concerned you NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST., for some reason. You seem to be of the mentality that if a guy in a black robe tells you to cut your throat you'll shrug and go get a knife. Some of us are a little more independent of mind. We like to see the judgement and consider whether it meets the test of logic and applicability.

Everything I said about the judgement was born out by what the appeals court judges said. Maybe you should examine your own position and ask why you're such a mindless, unthinking, obedient drone to whatever a judge says.

The point is, the system worked for DoFo. His jumping to use the notwithstanding clause was completely unnecessary. The judiciary does curb the excesses of some of its members. Thanks to the superior court, he will not go down as the first Ontario Premier to use the notwithstanding clause, particularly for such a stupid reason. At least not yet. He should take the lesson to heart and be grateful.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #145 on: September 19, 2018, 05:14:41 pm »
My problem was not that a judge ruled against Ford.

That is why we have an appeal process, and it works. It is dictators like Doug Ford who can't work within the system, they resort to brutal tactics.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #146 on: September 19, 2018, 05:24:12 pm »
So the appeals court has unanimously granted a stay to the government to allow their reduction of city councilors to go ahead, and the government has now in turn said it won't use the notwisthstanding clause. The Lefties can stop crying.

Well, honestly I feel better about this.  Although it looks bad for Ford that he said he would do this, I'm not sure of the effect on the constitution.

Anyway, what's done is done... moving on.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #147 on: September 19, 2018, 05:25:10 pm »
So now judges are the good guys? How things change.

Not for me.  They were always arbiters and please note my acceptance of the ruling, everyone.  Excuse me while I shine light out of my butt...

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #148 on: September 19, 2018, 06:06:54 pm »
That is why we have an appeal process, and it works. It is dictators like Doug Ford who can't work within the system, they resort to brutal tactics.

It worked in that he was able to get a stay of the order. Otherwise, our courts being so horrifically slow, it would be months before they could actually rule, which, even if they overturned it would have basically made the initial incorrect ruling stand.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #149 on: September 19, 2018, 06:09:44 pm »
Not for me.  They were always arbiters and please note my acceptance of the ruling, everyone.  Excuse me while I shine light out of my butt...

I would have accepted the first ruling if it had made any damn sense. I have no problem supporting a court which upholds the law. Now in some cases it's too complicated for me to actually form a reasonable opinion. I'm not going to argue with a judge on complicated aspects of a law. But on something where it's stretching something like 'free expression' out of all proportion to the reality of the damn language then yeah, I'm gonna say the judge is full of crap.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum