Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 2096 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2018, 04:02:32 pm »
I didn't say he was...  no one did.  It's called a hypothetical.  Would you accept that as a legitimate reason for any government to change the boundaries?   That's all I'm asking.   

The rest of this post is "blah blah blah...  avoiding the questions in my post".

I was pointing out context. And you are again confusing approving of someone's actions with not wanting some appointee to twist the law to prevent them from doing it.

As I have already stated, I don't approve of his sudden changes to Toronto's city council. But he has the legal right to do it. And I approve of an appointed judge twisting the law and democracy o suit himself far less.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #76 on: September 14, 2018, 04:33:59 pm »
To you guys, the words are synonyms.

Only for the vocal ones

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2018, 10:51:26 am »
Ted Morton gives context to the reason for the notwithstanding clause. As well as its use.

Back in 1981, the governments of the western provinces were suspicious of both Trudeau and his handpicked chief justice of the Supreme Court, Bora Laskin. Alberta was still reeling from the impact of Trudeau’s National Energy Program and a Laskin-led Supreme Court had just ruled against provincial regulation of natural resource development in two cases from Saskatchewan. The four western premiers — representing three different political parties — viewed Laskin as sharing the same pro-Ottawa values as Trudeau.

They saw the Charter — accurately as it has turned out — to potentially be a disguised form of “disallowance,” the historic constitutional power that allowed the federal cabinet to overrule provincial laws. Only, under the Charter, it would be federally appointed judges exercising the policy veto over provincial laws rather than the federal cabinet. The premiers never would have given Trudeau the support he needed without the notwithstanding clause.

Although it was born of political necessity, the notwithstanding power is fully justified in theory. It represents a creative middle ground between parliamentary supremacy and judicial supremacy. It strikes a balance between Canada’s tradition of responsible government and the American model of judicial review of a constitutional bill of rights.


https://nationalpost.com/opinion/ted-morton-provinces-demanded-notwithstanding-powers-for-good-reason-they-should-use-them
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2018, 11:02:38 am »
Section 1 of the charter allows reasonable limits:

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Section 33 is the unreasonable limits limits clause.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2018, 11:29:38 am »
Section 1 of the charter allows reasonable limits:

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Section 33 is the unreasonable limits limits clause.

Or the brake on judicial political activism and overreach.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2018, 11:50:24 am »
Or the brake on judicial political activism and overreach.

 Do you actually think the notwithstanding clause was designed to let an idiot like DoFo settle a dispute with city hall?

Speaking of overreach!
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2018, 12:39:56 pm »
Or the brake on judicial political activism and overreach.
It is the judges in this situation who are the ones limiting the overreach and political activism of a fascist blowhard.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2018, 12:51:54 pm »
Here is the statement from Chretien, McMurty, and Romanow (Liberal, Conservative, and New Democrat respectively):


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2018, 07:27:54 pm »
It is the judges in this situation who are the ones limiting the overreach and political activism of a fascist blowhard.

Ford is a fascist now because he wants to limit the number of city councilors in Toronto?  ::)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 07:30:45 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2018, 07:30:18 pm »
Here is the statement from Chretien, McMurty, and Romanow (Liberal, Conservative, and New Democrat respectively):

None of them conservative. What do you expect them to say?

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2018, 07:32:02 pm »
Do you actually think the notwithstanding clause was designed to let an idiot like DoFo settle a dispute with city hall?

Speaking of overreach!

It was designed to allow government to push back against judicial overreach. There's nothing in the law that says anything whatsoever about "A last resort, emergency situation only". It certainly wasn't used that way in Saskatchewan.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2018, 05:44:09 am »
It was designed to allow government to push back against judicial overreach. There's nothing in the law that says anything whatsoever about "A last resort, emergency situation only". It certainly wasn't used that way in Saskatchewan.

It wasn't designed for judicial overreach, it was designed to appease some provinces that were worried the Charter would limit their power because they all couldn't perfectly agree on the Charter contents.  Quebec didn't sign the Charter so they used the clause at will.

The judiciary is the primary check on the government leader's power (PM, Premiers).  The GG or LG is essentially a rubber stamp, so is the senate/upper chamber.  Stop and think for 2 seconds what it means for a Premier or PM to have the power to override the Constitution and our rights.  It should be used only in exceptional circumstances and as a last resort.  That's how its been used by convention by the governments usually, besides Quebec.  Personally I think the clause is garbage and shouldn't be in the Charter, it's extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.

I don't care what you think the agenda of judges are.  The judiciary has a vital role and if you think they have a bias well of course they do, so do all judges in any country.  Ford using the clause in this case during a damned election is completely stupid.  You can't just ignore the courts at will because you disagree with them.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2018, 10:15:21 am »
The judiciary is the primary check on the government leader's power (PM, Premiers).  The GG or LG is essentially a rubber stamp, so is the senate/upper chamber.

The primary check on a government's power is the electorate. Because that government wants to be re-elected.

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Stop and think for 2 seconds what it means for a Premier or PM to have the power to override the Constitution and our rights.

You mean like they had for most of the history of this country? Why, we could be living in the hellhole of 1979 or something!

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I don't care what you think the agenda of judges are.  The judiciary has a vital role and if you think they have a bias well of course they do, so do all judges in any country.

Okay, so you don't care about judges making up law as they go along because you fear politicians. That sounds pretty weird to me. You can get rid of politicians easily enough. You can't get rid of judges at all. Politicians have to have some concern for what the citizenry wants. Judges don't give a **** what the people want or think or say.

This sounds like you fear Canadians and want a nanny watching them. I don't fear Canadians. I fear the nanny.

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You can't just ignore the courts at will because you disagree with them.

If a judge can ignore the law at will because he disagrees with it then why can't the politicians ignore the judge?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 10:17:56 am by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2018, 10:26:06 am »
None of them conservative. What do you expect them to say?

Exactly.  There is no way to objectively measure an overreach (which this is) in a partisan world. 

Nobody has ever used notwithstanding for such a small scale issue and that's the problem.  What was initially set up as a check on power has now given the provinces domain over the federal government.  Quebec can now make English illegal, and only the political pushback limits them.

Thanks Doug.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #89 on: September 16, 2018, 11:34:41 am »
None of them conservative. What do you expect them to say?
All of them involved with drafting and negotiating the ratification of the constitution. I expect them to understand it far better than you, and lightyears beyond Ford. It's also funny how you disown one of the highest ranking Ontario Conservatives, which clearly shows how far to the right you've shifted.