Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 1788 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 08:10:01 pm »
So you think the Constitution is a comprehensive document that lays out all the potential violations and remedies?

I prefer the style of interpretation which looks at the intent and words of the framers of the constitution and does not try to substitute ones own opinion on things for theirs.
I refer you to one of the critiques of this judge's finding.

“Because the judge couldn’t invoke Section 3 of the Charter (which doesn’t apply to municipalities), he wrote himself a new Charter in which Section 2 does the work of Section 3.”
Anglin said that the judge’s argument concerning political rights under Section 3 of the Charter “doesn't apply to municipal elections” and that the argument Belobaba made rests on “two inapplicable” Supreme Court of Canada (SCC) precedents.


This is judicial activism, as far as I can see. And I much prefer originalism or constructivism.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Online Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 08:16:32 pm »
I'm going to assume you wrote that mistakenly. Parliament creates and enacts laws. Judges are only supposed to examine whether the laws are constitutional when a complaint is made.

This is the conflict between judicial activism, which prevails in Canada, and originalism or constructivism. I regard judicial activism as fundamentally undemocratic.

Strict constructivism means reading and applying the words of the law precisely as they are written. No more and no less is the intention, and the judge's role is not to interpret. Once the meaning of the text is understood, then the law is applied as such.

Judicial activism involves judges ruling in a manner in which they promote a decision based on their own political/ideological feelings and opinions toward shaping public policy. Detractors feel that this undermines legitimate and impartial judicial review, while proponents feel that legal interpretation should change with the times.

Originalism is the practice of looking at the legal framework in place ( the Constitution), and keeping in mind the purposes and intentions with which the applicable parts were written, judging in accordance (as best as can be determined) with the spirit and intention of the law as it was written. Often originalism is equated with strict constructivism, but they're not really the same exact thing.


So who do you think should interpret laws if not a judge? Is this more Fraser Institute screed?
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 11:35:56 pm »
I don't know what's worse: Ford setting bad precedent for using rare extraordinary powers, or the NDP getting booted from the legislature during the vote for behaving like moronic college kids by refusing to stop shouting down the PC's and chanting "shame".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/queens-park-council-cutting-bill-1.4820139
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2018, 12:46:27 am »
I don't know what's worse: Ford setting bad precedent for using rare extraordinary powers, or the NDP getting booted from the legislature during the vote for behaving like moronic college kids by refusing to stop shouting down the PC's and chanting "shame".

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/queens-park-council-cutting-bill-1.4820139

You can’t tell what’s worse....???

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2018, 06:18:57 am »

Or he understands what a can of worms he would be opening by overturning it. Why not do that for Bill 101? Why not do that for the law BC passed about the pipelines? Not to mention every premier would be up in arms.

Well, of course, and everyone knows the politics lies behind any of these decisions.  But when you have a Trumpian asshole in power, that effectively means there is no political firewall left.

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Hardly worth it over a few city councilors.

Agreed.  But it wasn't in the first place.  The legislation itself was overreach, and the revised law even more so.

Doug is going to be the shittiest premier ever, I am certain.

Offline TimG

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 09:04:41 am »
The legislation itself was overreach, and the revised law even more so.
I can't figure out why people think it would make more sense to delay the bill to after the election and then force a new election because 1/2 of the Councillors are fired. Seems to me the opposition to Ford is more driven by partisan posturing rather than a sober assessment of the pro-cons of different approaches to the problem (i.e. how to best implement a change to the city electoral system).
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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2018, 09:49:44 am »
Or you approach it rationally and change the boundaries and number of seats in a public, non-political, consultative way, and implement the changes with plenty of time for the election in 2022. Nobody needs to get fired before their term is up. It's not like it's an emergency situation that has to be dealt with right now.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2018, 09:59:21 am »
I can't figure out why people think it would make more sense to delay the bill to after the election and then force a new election because 1/2 of the Councillors are fired.
Because it sets a god damned ridiculous precedent when a provincial leader can rig an election, redrawing boundaries, during the election.

How about this scenario?

Ohhh the social democrats are losing city council in Toronto, but a small margin.....no worries the NDP premier will just redraw the boundaries during the election to secure a win.


It's fucking ridiculous and baffling that people actually support it.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2018, 11:45:12 am »
Because it sets a god damned ridiculous precedent when a provincial leader can rig an election, redrawing boundaries, during the election.
I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election. It was driven by the belief that a 44 member council with no party system/cabinet is too big to be productive. This is not an unreasonable argument.

I also think there was no rush and Ford was dumb to push it through. But his opponents are much more hysterical in their opposition.

As for the notwithstanding clause: the courts have made its routine use inevitable (especially with their reversals on back to work legislation). This is not the "first use" that I would have chosen but we have to start somewhere. Personally, I would prefer that we did not have judges that felt it was their right to invent ridiculous charter interpretations to rationalize ruling in ways that suit their political dispositions. But since those are the judges we have we will have to live with the use of the notwithstanding clause.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 11:56:05 am by TimG »
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2018, 12:02:24 pm »
I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election. It was driven by the belief that a 44 member council with no party system/cabinet is too big to be productive. This is not an unreasonable argument.

The judge didn’t say it was unreasonable or that the Province could not do it.

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I also think there was no rush and Ford was dumb to push it through. But his opponents are much more hysterical in their opposition.

The judge agrees with you.   It was a rush job not done correctly.

What makes his opponents hysterical?


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As for the notwithstanding clause: the courts have made its routine use inevitable (especially with their reversals on back to work legislation).


Routine?   It has never been used in Ontario.   How is it routine?


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This is not the "first use" that I would have chosen but we have to start somewhere. Personally, I would prefer that we did not have judges that felt it was their right to invent ridiculous charter interpretations to rationalize ruling in ways that suit their political dispositions. But since those are the judges we have we will have to live with the use of the notwithstanding clause.

Why would anyone have to start with this if the remedy is an appeal, or going through a proper process to make the change?   That’s nonsense.

You essentially agree with the judge that Ford shouldn’t have done this the way he did....   and yet are a cheerleader for using the Notwithstanding Clause...    this view is the view of a partisan hack who will agree with their guy, even if they think he’s wrong!   ::)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 12:03:57 pm by the_squid »
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2018, 12:05:19 pm »
I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election.
That is eventuality that you're allowing by supporting the idea that the premier can change the seats in the middle of an election, whether that's what he's doing now or not. Someone later WILL do that and they will have this precedent to lean upon, if you allow the premier to change seats DURING an election.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2018, 01:18:58 pm »
Seems to me the opposition to Ford is more driven by partisan posturing rather than a sober assessment of the pro-cons of different approaches to the problem (i.e. how to best implement a change to the city electoral system).

The opposition to Ford is driven by the stupidity of his actions. There was no sober assessment done by Doug Ford, in fact that is what the judgement that you are so freaked out about was saying.

I have seen no evidence that intent or objective of this move was to "rig" an election. It was driven by the belief that a 44 member council with no party system/cabinet is too big to be productive. This is not an unreasonable argument.

No, it was driven by pure hate mongering rhetoric. We have 325 members of Parliament, and it was a Conservative that increased it to that number. A Conservative that Doug Ford supports. This is pure stupidity, dog whistle politics to rile his dumb ass base. Ford wants to create an enemy, just like Dotard always does. He says the councilors are the enemy of the people, and his sheep continue to bray along.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 01:20:44 pm by ?Impact »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2018, 02:27:55 pm »
So who do you think should interpret laws if not a judge? Is this more Fraser Institute screed?

Prior to the Charter, Parliament had the ultimate authority. It rarely overruled the Supreme Court, but it's ability to do so helped keep the judges in check. Parliamentary sovereignty was absolute - as it remains in the United Kingdom.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2018, 02:29:21 pm »
Well, of course, and everyone knows the politics lies behind any of these decisions.  But when you have a Trumpian asshole in power, that effectively means there is no political firewall left.

Ford is not Trump. He's nothing like Trump other than being somewhat of a populist.

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Agreed.  But it wasn't in the first place.  The legislation itself was overreach, and the revised law even more so.

Perhaps, but the judgement was overreach too.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 02:34:50 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2018, 02:33:59 pm »
You essentially agree with the judge that Ford shouldn’t have done this the way he did....   and yet are a cheerleader for using the Notwithstanding Clause...    this view is the view of a partisan hack who will agree with their guy, even if they think he’s wrong!   ::)

I have attempted to explain to you guys that conservatives have a big problem with judicial overreach and have had for a long time. If the judge's ruling drawn a clear line between the constitution and Ford's actions I would have a different reaction, but to me the judgement was a blatant example of a judge saying "Okay, I'm going to decide to overrule this because I don't like this asshole Ford. Now then, let's see, how can I excuse my decision as if it was based on the constitution. Hmm, maybe if I take this clause and twist it that way, and then pull it over to stretch across here, and then pretend that and then... yeah, that sounds kinda stupid but it'll do."
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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