Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 1991 times)

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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2018, 11:36:20 am »
Exactly.  There is no way to objectively measure an overreach (which this is) in a partisan world. 

Nobody has ever used notwithstanding for such a small scale issue and that's the problem.  What was initially set up as a check on power has now given the provinces domain over the federal government.  Quebec can now make English illegal, and only the political pushback limits them.

Thanks Doug.
Except McMurty is a conservative. Argus is just that far to the right that Bill Davis's Attorney General isn't conservative enough for him.
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Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2018, 01:25:41 pm »
Neither is Ford.  He's a populist.

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2018, 01:55:55 pm »
Neither is Ford.  He's a populist.

 ::)

Conservative Party leader = Conservative Party members elected leader = leader is a Conservative.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2018, 01:56:44 pm »
The primary check on a government's power is the electorate. Because that government wants to be re-elected.

So politicians can do whatever they want in between the 5 years they're up for re-election?  Between those 5 years, the judiciary is supposed to keep the gov in check so that the laws they pass is lawful.  He's not a king for 5 years.

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Okay, so you don't care about judges making up law as they go along because you fear politicians. That sounds pretty weird to me. You can get rid of politicians easily enough. You can't get rid of judges at all. Politicians have to have some concern for what the citizenry wants.

That's why they pass laws, as long as those laws are constitutional and lawful.  Ford wasn't elected on a mandate to shrink the size of Toronto city council DURING an election.  If Ford waited until after the Toronto election the odds of his council shrink law passing would be much higher.

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Judges don't give a **** what the people want or think or say.

That's their job.  They interpret the law, not the whims of citizens or politicians.

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This sounds like you fear Canadians and want a nanny watching them. I don't fear Canadians. I fear the nanny.

I fear politicians whose power is too concentrated, and who use extraordinary powers to bypass the judiciary when they disagree with them.  Let's be thankful Trump has more checks on his power than Ford or Trudeau.

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If a judge can ignore the law at will because he disagrees with it then why can't the politicians ignore the judge?

If he doesn't like the judge's decision he can appeal it.  Ford can take it all the way to the SCC if he wants.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2018, 02:05:41 pm »
::)

Conservative Party leader = Conservative Party members elected leader = leader is a Conservative.

Seems quite obvious to me. He's simply a conservative trying to spew populist rhetoric.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2018, 03:17:15 pm »
::)

Conservative Party leader = Conservative Party members elected leader = leader is a Conservative.

Republican Party president = Republican party elected president = president is a Republican

But he's not a conservative either, as pointed out by conservatives themselves.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2018, 03:19:16 pm »
  He's not a king for 5 years.

Agreed.

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That's why they pass laws, as long as those laws are constitutional and lawful.  Ford wasn't elected on a mandate to shrink the size of Toronto city council DURING an election.  If Ford waited until after the Toronto election the odds of his council shrink law passing would be much higher.

That's their job.  They interpret the law, not the whims of citizens or politicians.

They react more slowly, hence they are *more* conservative. 

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I fear politicians whose power is too concentrated, and who use extraordinary powers to bypass the judiciary when they disagree with them.  Let's be thankful Trump has more checks on his power than Ford or Trudeau.

He doesn't now, though.  He has more power than Trudeau as he has proven that he can/will reject anything the feds give him.

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If he doesn't like the judge's decision he can appeal it.  Ford can take it all the way to the SCC if he wants.

And then overrule if he loses.

Seriously, if he vetoes a change to Toronto City Council what would he NOT veto ?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2018, 03:41:15 pm »
Exactly.  There is no way to objectively measure an overreach (which this is) in a partisan world. 

Nobody has ever used notwithstanding for such a small scale issue and that's the problem.

You call Saskatchewan's use of it a big scale issue?

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as initially set up as a check on power has now given the provinces domain over the federal government.

What? That's silly. The federal government can disallow any act of a provincial parliament.

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can now make English illegal, and only the political pushback limits them.

Quebec largely HAS made English illegal and the response from the Left was applause for them protecting their delightful ethnic cultural values and language.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2018, 03:42:46 pm »
Except McMurty is a conservative. Argus is just that far to the right that Bill Davis's Attorney General isn't conservative enough for him.

McMurty was a red tory, like Davis. Neither was conservative. It was the lack of conservative policies, beliefs or ideology which wrecked the federal PC policy.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2018, 03:45:32 pm »
You call Saskatchewan's use of it a big scale issue?

My understanding is that was only temporary for that ruling.  I hadn't even heard of it until recently.  The big one was the Quebec use of it in the 1990s.

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What? That's silly. The federal government can disallow any act of a provincial parliament.

My understanding is that power hasn't been tested.  I suspect that's partly why Trudeau didn't use it.

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Quebec largely HAS made English illegal and the response from the Left was applause for them protecting their delightful ethnic cultural values and language.

No.  That's your perception only. 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2018, 03:48:25 pm »
So politicians can do whatever they want in between the 5 years they're up for re-election?

As long as what they do gets forgiven by the electorate, yeah. Pretty much. That's how parliamentary democracy works.

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Between those 5 years, the judiciary is supposed to keep the gov in check so that the laws they pass is lawful.

No. The judiciary is supposed to analyse laws and determine if they meet a constitutional test, when challenged. I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is judges saying "Well, I don't like this law, so let's see, how can I justify overturning it somehow... Hmm. I'll say it's against people's freedom of expression!"

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That's why they pass laws, as long as those laws are constitutional and lawful.

And that would work if we had a neutral, unbiased judiciary. We do not have such a thing.


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ford wasn't elected on a mandate to shrink the size of Toronto city council DURING an election.

The election is still a couple of months away.

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That's their job.  They interpret the law, not the whims of citizens or politicians.

And if I trusted them to interpret it honestly, instead of according to their own whims, that would be fine. I don't.

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If he doesn't like the judge's decision he can appeal it.  Ford can take it all the way to the SCC if he wants.

I'm sure he will. Of course, the election will be over by then, which was probably the judge's intention.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2018, 03:56:31 pm »
My understanding is that was only temporary for that ruling.

It was temporary in that the judge's ruling that they ignored was found to be invalid, as I suspect this one will be.

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My understanding is that power hasn't been tested.  I suspect that's partly why Trudeau didn't use it.

It's been used dozens of times in the past, just not over the past generation.

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No.  That's your perception only.

The NDP have made it awfully damn clear how deeply they respect Quebec's individuality and wish to protect their culture and language and that if they want to leave, even if the vote is 50.001% the NDP will support them. When Bill 101 was expanded years ago the NDP supported that.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2018, 03:57:15 pm »
McMurty was a red tory, like Davis. Neither was conservative. It was the lack of conservative policies, beliefs or ideology which wrecked the federal PC policy.
:D

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2018, 03:58:18 pm »
:D

Did I say something which was incorrect? Do you think the federal PCs split up and died because they were too conservative?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2018, 03:59:18 pm »
The NDP have made it awfully damn clear how deeply they respect Quebec's individuality and wish to protect their culture and language and that if they want to leave, even if the vote is 50.001% the NDP will support them. When Bill 101 was expanded years ago the NDP supported that.

Noted that 'the left' means the NDP now.  So if Marxist professors don't like the xenophobic policies of Quebec, we can still say leftists do like them.

And if Charlottesville fascists kill people, they're not conservatives... Trump isn't one... Bill Davis isn't one...

Damn it we should just all ask you to define everything, it's much easier.  :D
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