Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 1787 times)

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Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2018, 06:55:05 pm »
This is not, to me, a left/right issue. It is an activist judiciary/democratically elected legislature issue. I don't know how long it takes to appeal a judicial decision but as people have already pointed out the election date is coming soon and likely there wouldn't have been time. And no, I don't know why Ford is so all fired eager to get it down for THIS election rather than waiting through to the next. Don't care either. It's the Toronto city council. I couldn't care less what he does to it - or for that matter, to my own city's. They're all a bunch of weasels anyway.

But he's the premier. He has a majority. The municipalities are all creations of the province, and so they have the right to do with them what they want.

So you’d have no problem with an NDP Provincial government changing the boundaries to ensure their friends were more likely to get elected in a municipality then?   Mid-election, mind you....  when they can see the polls aren’t favourable to their friends....

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2018, 07:01:01 pm »
A “fair election is virtually impossible” due to the actions of the Province.

https://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/toronto-politicians-to-weigh-steps-as-province-revives-bill-to-reduce-council


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2018, 07:07:49 pm »
So you’d have no problem with an NDP Provincial government changing the boundaries to ensure their friends were more likely to get elected in a municipality then?   Mid-election, mind you....  when they can see the polls aren’t favourable to their friends....

There is simply no evidence that Ford is doing this to benefit his 'friends' nor even that it WILL.
And to reiterate, I don't think doing this now is necessary. I don't even know if doing it at all is necessary. I don't CARE about it.
I care about judges twisting the constitution to overrule governments which are legitimately carrying out legal acts.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2018, 07:16:40 pm »
Why is Doug Ford not reducing the number of city councilors in Ottawa from 23 to 9? That would still give them better representation than he is giving Toronto.

The same can be said across the rest of the province, but in other cases it would be from 4 to 0.01, etc.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2018, 07:24:55 pm »
Why is Doug Ford not reducing the number of city councilors in Ottawa from 23 to 9? That would still give them better representation than he is giving Toronto.

The same can be said across the rest of the province, but in other cases it would be from 4 to 0.01, etc.

Okay. Let him. I really don't care. We don't have much in the way of democracy at the municipal level anyway because almost no one votes. That means city councilors only need to zealously pursue activists and community groups and what they want. That will give them enough votes to easily win over nameless newbies that might run against them.

This is a few years old but nothing has changed, really.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/incumbency-on-city-councils-is-killing-democracy/article21403223/
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2018, 07:42:27 pm »
There is simply no evidence that Ford is doing this to benefit his 'friends' nor even that it WILL.
And to reiterate, I don't think doing this now is necessary. I don't even know if doing it at all is necessary. I don't CARE about it.
I care about judges twisting the constitution to overrule governments which are legitimately carrying out legal acts.

So when you said “they can do with them what they want”, you didn’t actually mean that....

Online wilber

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2018, 09:08:38 pm »
Quote
As for the notwithstanding clause: the courts have made its routine use inevitable (especially with their reversals on back to work legislation).

It's been used once outside of Quebec and even then the courts decided it was unnecessary because the particular law wasn't illegal in the first place. So, once outside of Quebec in 36 years.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 09:28:56 pm by wilber »
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2018, 09:21:18 pm »
It's been used once outside of Quebec...

Yes, only Saskatchewan & Quebec used it. The clause also applies to the federal government, which has never used it. Even Stephen Harper, the guy that lost more court cases than Donald Trump, never resorted to using it.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2018, 10:22:55 am »
So when you said “they can do with them what they want”, you didn’t actually mean that....

The provinces create municipalities. They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2018, 10:26:54 am »
Yes, only Saskatchewan & Quebec used it. The clause also applies to the federal government, which has never used it. Even Stephen Harper, the guy that lost more court cases than Donald Trump, never resorted to using it.

Harper lacked the spine to use it. He lacked the willingness to push any conservative principles. This might give you a bit of an insight into why conservatives are unlikely to have a problem with what Ford has done.

In disagreeing with Justice Edward Belobaba’s decision on his move to cut the size of Toronto city council, Ford is playing to this heightened Conservative skepticism towards Canada’s justice institutions. In moving to invoke Charter Section 33 (the notwithstanding clause), Ford is also betting a figurative flipping of the bird to this country’s legal and government establishment also will resonate among the majority of Canadians, who say they feel as though they are on the outside looking in.

When the Angus Reid Institute last asked, fully two-thirds of Canadians said “the values and ideals I care about most are losing ground.” On the right-hand side of the political spectrum, the feeling only intensified, with nearly four-in-five (79 per cent) of past Conservative voters expressing this. Among those who were on the “very right” side of the political scale (as opposed to moderately right), this view was nearly unanimous (91 per cent).


https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/kurl-doug-ford-shows-conservative-parties-arent-what-they-used-to-be
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2018, 11:14:02 am »
Ford is playing to this heightened Conservative skepticism towards Canada’s justice institutions

Yes, more dog whistle politics.
  • Councilors are the enemy of the people.
  • Judges are the enemy of the people.
  • ...

That is not being 'conservative', that is being extremist. Hopefully even the rest of the electorate will wake up to this hate based populism.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2018, 02:03:21 pm »
The provinces create municipalities. They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose.

So now you're saying you'd be OK with an NDP gov't changing the municipal boundaries during an election...   say to suit their political allies?  Because "They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose".

Or are there limits to this power?
Do you think there should be limits?   If so, who should be the watchdog to make sure the Province doesn't over-reach?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 02:05:45 pm by the_squid »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2018, 03:05:23 pm »
Yes, more dog whistle politics.
  • Councilors are the enemy of the people.

You made that up. Nobody else has ever suggested it.
And doing what you should do, even if it pleases people is not always 'dog whistle politics'.

Quote
That is not being 'conservative', that is being extremist.

Oh, admit it. To you guys, the words are synonyms.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:19:22 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2018, 03:18:34 pm »
So now you're saying you'd be OK with an NDP gov't changing the municipal boundaries during an election...   say to suit their political allies?  Because "They can change them, change their borders, change the rules they operate under, or eliminate them as they choose".

Or are there limits to this power?
Do you think there should be limits?   If so, who should be the watchdog to make sure the Province doesn't over-reach?

And again, there is no evidence whatsoever, other than paranoia, that Ford is doing this to suit his political allies, or even that it will help his political allies.
And why give a shit about it anyway? Do you know how many incumbents lost in the last Toronto election? One. Nor is that the least unusual. If you check on the voting you find most incumbents winning with between 50% and 80% of the vote in every damned election. They don't get enough press for people to know what they're really up to, but enough to be a 'name' incumbency let's them know what community groups to stroke and lets them do it. The nobodies who mostly challenge them get no publicity or press and so even if someone wants to vote out their councillor they generally have no idea which of the half dozen or more challengers have a prayer. It was the same in Ottawa, with just 1 incumbent losing.



"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2018, 03:40:02 pm »
And again, there is no evidence whatsoever, other than paranoia, that Ford is doing this to suit his political allies, or even that it will help his political allies.

I didn't say he was...  no one did.  It's called a hypothetical.  Would you accept that as a legitimate reason for any government to change the boundaries?   That's all I'm asking.   

Quote
And why give a shit about it anyway? Do you know how many incumbents lost in the last Toronto election? One. Nor is that the least unusual. If you check on the voting you find most incumbents winning with between 50% and 80% of the vote in every damned election. They don't get enough press for people to know what they're really up to, but enough to be a 'name' incumbency let's them know what community groups to stroke and lets them do it. The nobodies who mostly challenge them get no publicity or press and so even if someone wants to vote out their councillor they generally have no idea which of the half dozen or more challengers have a prayer. It was the same in Ottawa, with just 1 incumbent losing.

The rest of this post is "blah blah blah...  avoiding the questions in my post".