Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 1789 times)

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Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2018, 02:42:05 pm »
Prior to the Charter, Parliament had the ultimate authority. It rarely overruled the Supreme Court, but it's ability to do so helped keep the judges in check. Parliamentary sovereignty was absolute - as it remains in the United Kingdom.

Yep, so what does that have to do with my comment? I, along with the majority of the electorate in Canada, prefer to have the SCC have power to apply the constitution if parliament tries to enact laws that contravene it.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2018, 02:47:49 pm »
Yep, so what does that have to do with my comment?

Answers it.

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I, along with the majority of the electorate in Canada, prefer to have the SCC have power to apply the constitution if parliament tries to enact laws that contravene it.

The electorate was never consulted about Trudeau's Charter. It was never mentioned during the 1980 election, and Trudeau did not put it to the electorate before ramming it through the House in 1982. Trudeau didn't give a shit what the electorate thought or said or wanted.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2018, 02:59:04 pm »
Answers it.

The electorate was never consulted about Trudeau's Charter. It was never mentioned during the 1980 election, and Trudeau did not put it to the electorate before ramming it through the House in 1982. Trudeau didn't give a shit what the electorate thought or said or wanted.

Didn't answer anything.
And, 9 out of 10 provinces agreed with Trudeau and the electorate to this day approves.
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Offline TimG

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2018, 03:30:45 pm »
yet are a cheerleader for using the Notwithstanding Clause...
I am doing nothing you would not do if you were faced with a judiciary that consistently twisted the charter to support political opinions you disagree with. It did not use to be this way. The courts use to take their role as neutral arbitrators and attempted to balance the competing interests. Now all they do is decide what way they want to rule  based on their personal preferences and invent the legal rationalizations required to supported their pre-existing views.

Sort of like free speech. People with left wing views used to understand the importance of free speech as a means prevent oppression. Now that principle is tossed out now that many of the people with power today have left wing views and free speech interferes with their ability to oppress people they disagree with.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 03:36:11 pm by TimG »
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Offline Omni

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2018, 03:44:37 pm »
I am doing nothing you would not do if you were faced with a judiciary that consistently twisted the charter to support political opinions you disagree with. It did not use to be this way. The courts use to take their role as neutral arbitrators and attempted to balance the competing interests. Now all they do is decide what way they want to rule  based on their personal preferences and invent the legal rationalizations required to supported their pre-existing views.

Sort of like free speech. People with left wing views used to understand the importance of free speech as a means prevent oppression. Now that principle is tossed out now that many of the people with power today have left wing views and free speech interferes with their ability to oppress people they disagree with.

So tell us where and how they "twisted" the charter. Try to rise above your biases in your explanation.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2018, 03:56:53 pm »
The electorate was never consulted about Trudeau's Charter.

Gawd, repatriation of the constitution goes way back to at least William Lyon Mackenzie King in the 20's, and your hero Diefenbaker even had a crack at it; in fact that is how he began his political career even before first being elected to office. It was Diefenbaker that established the Canadian Bill of Rights. This was not something cooked up by Trudeau.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2018, 05:43:10 pm »
...rather than a sober assessment of the pro-cons of different approaches to the problem (i.e. how to best implement a change to the city electoral system).

Or trying to figure out why it's a problem at all when Toronto isn't even represented on a per-councillor level close to smaller cities.  But you have a point.  They could have done it in time for the next election...

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2018, 05:46:52 pm »
Ford is not Trump. He's nothing like Trump other than being somewhat of a populist.

He's worse.  He's a Trump admirer and wannabe.

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Perhaps, but the judgement was overreach too.

The judge didn't deny the province had the right to do it, but ruled on the timing.  How is that overreach ?
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2018, 06:28:29 pm »
So tell us where and how they "twisted" the charter. Try to rise above your biases in your explanation.

Saying the Ontario government couldn't change the number of council seats because that would interfere with people's freedom of expression was certainly twisting it.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2018, 06:29:21 pm »
Gawd, repatriation of the constitution goes way back to at least William Lyon Mackenzie King in the 20's, and your hero Diefenbaker even had a crack at it; in fact that is how he began his political career even before first being elected to office. It was Diefenbaker that established the Canadian Bill of Rights. This was not something cooked up by Trudeau.

He said that the people preferred judges have power over parliament. I pointed out that no one ever asked the people. The Constitution was not put to a referendum nor was it an issue in an election.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2018, 06:31:44 pm »
Saying the Ontario government couldn't change the number of council seats because that would interfere with people's freedom of expression was certainly twisting it.

You and Doug Ford donít understand appeals?  Or, failing that, not making the change during an election?   ::)

You and Doug Ford want to bust out the sledge hammer rather than the proper tool for the job just so you can stick it to the damn lefties.    :o

Like I said earlier, itís the governing of an oaf.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 06:34:27 pm by the_squid »

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2018, 06:43:38 pm »
Here is what Coyne thinks about this Ford stupidity.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2018, 06:48:12 pm »
He's worse.  He's a Trump admirer and wannabe.

The judge didn't deny the province had the right to do it, but ruled on the timing.  How is that overreach ?

Freedom of expression? Seriously? I agree the timing is stupid. But a judge does not have supervisory power over the legislature. He's simply supposed to see if the actions are unconstitutional - not if they're stupid or if they're fair or if they're mean or if the government justified them or if the government consulted with people - just if they're constitutional. Inventing a ridiculous pretext to rule they were NOT by saying that violated people's freedom of expression is far more of a violation of democracy than the use of the notwithstanding clause.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2018, 06:51:46 pm »
You and Doug Ford donít understand appeals?  Or, failing that, not making the change during an election?   ::)

You and Doug Ford want to bust out the sledge hammer rather than the proper tool for the job just so you can stick it to the damn lefties.    :o

Like I said earlier, itís the governing of an oaf.

This is not, to me, a left/right issue. It is an activist judiciary/democratically elected legislature issue. I don't know how long it takes to appeal a judicial decision but as people have already pointed out the election date is coming soon and likely there wouldn't have been time. And no, I don't know why Ford is so all fired eager to get it down for THIS election rather than waiting through to the next. Don't care either. It's the Toronto city council. I couldn't care less what he does to it - or for that matter, to my own city's. They're all a bunch of weasels anyway.

But he's the premier. He has a majority. The municipalities are all creations of the province, and so they have the right to do with them what they want.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2018, 06:53:31 pm »
They're all a bunch of weasels anyway.

Yup, dog whistle politics, catering to his braying sheep.