Author Topic: Ontario Government of Doug Ford  (Read 1784 times)

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Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2018, 06:47:26 pm »
Municipal councillors deal with issues on a more granular level than their provincial and federal counterparts. Regular people are more likely to deal directly with their councillor than an MP or MPP (we call them MLAs in Manitoba) because municipal politicians are in charge of most of the things that directly affect people, like roads and permits and snow clearing. Winnipeg once had 50 councillors but the PC government in the 1970s reduced it to 29. Then the PC government reduced it to 15 in the 1990s. Both reductions not only made it much more difficult to get a councillor to respond to your concerns, it made it more difficult for ordinary people to enter politics because it became more competitive and expensive to run.

In any case, the governments in the past were rational and gave lots of warning of the changes. They didn't just do it to fuck everything up out of spite.
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Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2018, 09:30:51 pm »
Can't be done. And if it could, don't you think Harper, who loathed the Liberals, would have at least considered doing it?

You really don't understand.  It's like Executive Orders - the abuse gets worse with each leader....

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2018, 09:33:22 pm »
He was in power almost ten years. I think he had more than enough time.

He had an idea of perspective.  He knew how democracy worked.

He would never have considered it.

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2018, 09:34:55 pm »
Go look at the map at the boundary size of some of the wards in Toronto.  There's 25 provincial and federal constituencies in Toronto, yet 47 municipal constituencies.  Double?  Really?  That's a bit ridiculous.

Let's look at the new boundaries for Ward 20:  https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/973b-Ward20_map.pdf



What's the ward size in other cities?

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2018, 05:36:08 am »
https://www.london.ca/city-hall/city-council/pages/electoral-ward-map.aspx

London appears to have very small wards... not an issue.  Ottawa also... 

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2018, 11:57:56 am »
He had an idea of perspective.  He knew how democracy worked.

He would never have considered it.

More like he lacked the courage of his convictions - which I have said often enough before.
Democracy works when elected bodies make decisions, not partisan appointed judges.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline MH

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2018, 12:11:25 pm »
Are you saying politicians shouldn't be bound by the courts?

Why Trudeau's willing to let Ford deploy the notwithstanding clause
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ford-trudeau-toronto-notwithstanding-1.4819172

Trudeau could kill the Ontario law but he understands the idea of overreach.

Offline Bubbermiley

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2018, 12:53:30 pm »
I'm surprised sometimes how people often don't understand the basic functioning of our institutions. Parliament creates the laws and judges enact them. They don't make the decisions to create the laws. And no matter what a judge decides, it can always be overridden by Parliament with new laws and even a new Constitution if necessary.
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Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 01:06:13 pm »
I'm surprised sometimes how people often don't understand the basic functioning of our institutions. Parliament creates the laws and judges enact them. They don't make the decisions to create the laws. And no matter what a judge decides, it can always be overridden by Parliament with new laws and even a new Constitution if necessary.

The remedy outlined by the court was proper consultation with the city, public and not doing this in the middle of an election.

Instead of doing those things, Doug Ford has decided to use a sledge hammer and invoke the Notwithstanding when he didn't need to.   It's oafish governing at best.

Or the gov't of Ontario could appeal...   no...   DoFo has to do this NOW....   why?  No one knows...   not even DoFo.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 01:19:01 pm by the_squid »
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 07:08:42 pm »
Are you saying politicians shouldn't be bound by the courts?

It's not that simple or simplistic. I wish we had a judiciary which did its job properly, in an unbiased fashion, without inserting their own ideological prejudices. I think that's fundamentally necessary. I just don't think we have that. I think we have an arrogant, activist judiciary who are, more and more, coming to see themselves as supervisors of the elected politicians as opposed to simply comparing laws to the constitution.

Quote
Trudeau could kill the Ontario law but he understands the idea of overreach.

Or he understands what a can of worms he would be opening by overturning it. Why not do that for Bill 101? Why not do that for the law BC passed about the pipelines? Not to mention every premier would be up in arms.

Hardly worth it over a few city councilors.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 07:10:27 pm »
The remedy outlined by the court was proper consultation with the city, public and not doing this in the middle of an election.

None of which are requirements under the constitution.

Quote
Or the gov't of Ontario could appeal...   no...   DoFo has to do this NOW....   why?  No one knows...   not even DoFo.

Maybe because the election is next month? It would not even surprise me if the judge in question expected to have his ruling overturned, but hoped it would be too late to affect the election.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 07:12:09 pm »
None of which are requirements under the constitution.


Who said it was? 


Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 07:15:12 pm »
I'm surprised sometimes how people often don't understand the basic functioning of our institutions. Parliament creates the laws and judges enact them. They don't make the decisions to create the laws. And no matter what a judge decides, it can always be overridden by Parliament with new laws and even a new Constitution if necessary.

I'm going to assume you wrote that mistakenly. Parliament creates and enacts laws. Judges are only supposed to examine whether the laws are constitutional when a complaint is made.

This is the conflict between judicial activism, which prevails in Canada, and originalism or constructivism. I regard judicial activism as fundamentally undemocratic.

Strict constructivism means reading and applying the words of the law precisely as they are written. No more and no less is the intention, and the judge's role is not to interpret. Once the meaning of the text is understood, then the law is applied as such.

Judicial activism involves judges ruling in a manner in which they promote a decision based on their own political/ideological feelings and opinions toward shaping public policy. Detractors feel that this undermines legitimate and impartial judicial review, while proponents feel that legal interpretation should change with the times.

Originalism is the practice of looking at the legal framework in place ( the Constitution), and keeping in mind the purposes and intentions with which the applicable parts were written, judging in accordance (as best as can be determined) with the spirit and intention of the law as it was written. Often originalism is equated with strict constructivism, but they're not really the same exact thing.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:22:02 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 07:20:06 pm »
Who said it was?

Apparently the judge. Else how can they be remedies?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline the_squid

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Re: Ontario Government of Doug Ford
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 07:32:20 pm »
Apparently the judge. Else how can they be remedies?

So you think the Constitution is a comprehensive document that lays out all the potential violations and remedies?