Author Topic: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?  (Read 2250 times)

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Offline Boges

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2018, 12:14:54 pm »
You think the PCs are clean as a whistle? Or even the NDP for that matter? Give me a god damned break. Especially Doug Ford.

They haven't been in power. I don't believe Rob or Doug got dogged with corruption. There was some controversy surrounding how he used staff regarding coaching football. But no corruption to the level of the Ontario Liberals.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2018, 12:17:28 pm »
I don't believe Rob or Doug got dogged with corruption.

Then you didn't pay attention. Doug was caught twice scamming city hall by sending business to customers of his own company Deco labels.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 12:22:09 pm by ?Impact »

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #137 on: March 12, 2018, 12:27:58 pm »
You forgot the recent Italy election won by rightwing populists.

You forgot the Austrian election recently. Guess who won that one?

When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do.  - David Frum
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Rue

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #138 on: March 12, 2018, 12:57:19 pm »
I thought for sure this was rigged. I could not imagine Ford having sufficient votes.  It seems Ms. Mulroney was just not on the radar. 17% is a dismal showing.
I thought she was the best bet having no baggage going into an election and therefore able to unite people.
Clearly the PC's did not want her.  Elliot had too much baggage from all her losses and stabbing Brown in the back and accepting a Liberal patronage appointment.

As much as I hate Ford it appears he was the one they wanted. I think he is the most alienating and most likely of all the PC's to drive the moderate Tories and blue Liberals back to Wynne.

I think he is a pathetic  version of Trump. I find him ignorant, shallow and a bafoon.  That said I think putting Wynne  back in is even worse so I might hold my nose and vote for the PC
candidate in my riding and not Ford. I just can't see a sane person voting for Wynne.

Its too bad Mulroney could have won the vote. I guess they saw her asa  too rich privieleged outsider.

Ford is a thug. His business acumen as he poses it comes from selling drugs when he was in high school and working for Daddy.

I think Wynne will win as Ford alienates people and then Wynne continues to absorb the NDP  vote. At this juncture there is no difference between Liberal and NDP provincially in Ontario other than their leaders.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #139 on: March 12, 2018, 01:01:19 pm »
so I might hold my nose and vote for the PC
candidate in my riding and not Ford. I just can't see a sane person voting for Wynne.

Why not consider NDP, Green, or anything else? That is the problem with Canadian politics, we only want red or blue and then we get stuck with continual corruption (yes, Ford is even more corrupt than Wynne).

Offline waldo

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #140 on: March 12, 2018, 01:07:44 pm »
You forgot the Austrian election recently. Guess who won that one?

When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do.  - David Frum

the context of the Frum statement: "The liberal scorn for nationhood and refusal to adapt immigration policy to changing circumstances enables the rise of extremism in the West."

Quote
It’s understandable why people in the poor world would seek to relocate. It’s predictable that people in the destination nations would resist. Interpreting these indelible conflicts through the absurdly inapt analogy of German and Austrian Jews literally fleeing for their lives will lead to systematically erroneous conclusions.

We need a new paradigm for a new time. The social trust and social cohesion that characterize an advanced society like the United States are slowly built and vulnerable to erosion. They are eroding. Trump is more the symptom of that erosion than the cause.

Trump’s executive order has unleashed chaos, harmed lawful U.S. residents, and alienated potential friends in the Islamic world. Yet without the dreamy liberal refusal to recognize the reality of nationhood, the meaning of citizenship, and the differences between cultures, Trump would never have gained the power to issue that order.

Liberalism and nationhood grew up together in the 19th century, mutually dependent. In the 21st century, they have grown apart—or more exactly, liberalism has recoiled from nationhood. The result has not been to abolish nationality, but to discredit liberalism.

When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders, then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won’t do. This weekend’s shameful chapter in the history of the United States is a reproach not only to Trump, although it is that too, but to the political culture that enabled him. Angela Merkel and Donald Trump may be temperamental opposites. They are also functional allies

Argus, just what are you advocating here?  ;D

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #141 on: March 12, 2018, 01:38:09 pm »
I think Wynne will win as Ford alienates people
Wynne also alienates people, as the insane ramblings of trolls on Facebook demonstrate. So then what? When both camps are alienating people, who wins? People are tired of Wynne. Those who would otherwise support the Liberals and can't stand Ford, probably just won't turn out to vote. Ford will excite people who thought that their views would never be represented in Queen's Park. So on one hand you have Liberals staying home, on the other you have Ford bringing people who otherwise think their vote doesn't matter.

I think people are really underestimating the chance Doug Ford has here.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #142 on: March 12, 2018, 01:55:43 pm »
Why not consider NDP, Green, or anything else? That is the problem with Canadian politics, we only want red or blue and then we get stuck with continual corruption (yes, Ford is even more corrupt than Wynne).
The problem with politics everywhere is that people have no class consciousness and consistently vote against their interest. If you're not corporate executive, there's absolutely zero reason to vote for the GOP in the United States. If you're not wealthy in Canada or a Christian fundamentalist, there's no reason to be voting for any of the Conservative parties. If you're lower or middle income working-class, then even voting for the Liberals is ridiculous, since they're the party of Bay Street progressives and lawyers. Parties want to convince people that they're everything to everyone, when in reality they're the intellectual arm of social classes put into practice. They're a means for controlling the state apparatus, which is always put to use for class interests. The kleptocrats who run corporations and the wealthy know this. That's why they never vote for anything other than Conservative parties, who will cut their taxes at the expense of those who are poor, lower income, or who work for wages to survive. Conservatives try to appeal to those they hurt by insisting that they offer something to these classes through populist nonsense about immigrants, false promises about "creating jobs," and bullshit shell-game illusions about "trickle-down" economics. If they can keep the mass of people in the working-class from looking at how the economic system exploits them by having them focus instead on emotionally charged issues, they can continue to have them vote against their material interests without actually having to deliver on anything that will materially benefit them. But hey, they'll feel good because "**** Muslims."
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #143 on: March 12, 2018, 04:36:24 pm »
The problem with politics everywhere is that people have no class consciousness and consistently vote against their interest. If you're not corporate executive, there's absolutely zero reason to vote for the GOP in the United States. If you're not wealthy in Canada or a Christian fundamentalist, there's no reason to be voting for any of the Conservative parties. If you're lower or middle income working-class, then even voting for the Liberals is ridiculous, since they're the party of Bay Street progressives and lawyers. Parties want to convince people that they're everything to everyone, when in reality they're the intellectual arm of social classes put into practice. They're a means for controlling the state apparatus, which is always put to use for class interests.

I used to think this.  I think your argument shows a misunderstanding on how the value system of the average middle-income conservative works.  There's reasons they believe what they believe and "vote against their interests".  I think you're looking too much through a class lens.  Also, voters use the state to further their own goals, which isn't necessarily self-interested.  ie: Progressives want to help marginalized groups, which they usually aren't a part of.

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The kleptocrats who run corporations and the wealthy know this. That's why they never vote for anything other than Conservative parties, who will cut their taxes at the expense of those who are poor, lower income, or who work for wages to survive. Conservatives try to appeal to those they hurt by insisting that they offer something to these classes through populist nonsense about immigrants, false promises about "creating jobs," and bullshit shell-game illusions about "trickle-down" economics. If they can keep the mass of people in the working-class from looking at how the economic system exploits them by having them focus instead on emotionally charged issues, they can continue to have them vote against their material interests without actually having to deliver on anything that will materially benefit them. But hey, they'll feel good because "**** Muslims."

Well this is quite the conspiracy theory.  Some may take part in it as you state, but I think a lot of the rich actually believe what they push.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #144 on: March 12, 2018, 04:50:41 pm »
If you're not wealthy in Canada or a Christian fundamentalist, there's no reason to be voting for any of the Conservative parties. If you're lower or middle income working-class, then even voting for the Liberals is ridiculous, since they're the party of Bay Street progressives and lawyers.

By that way of thinking, if you're not part of one of the identity groups the lefties love you'd be out of your **** mind to vote NDP. Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men. Also, if you're young, you'd be crazy to vote for a political party that wants to build up debt as high as possible - for you to pay off.

So if you're a middle class white male the NDP will see you as a walking wallet they can siphon money off of to pay to their favorite identity groups, and if you're a poor white guy the NDP will bring in hundreds of thousands of immigrants to take your job.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 04:53:09 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline TimG

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #145 on: March 12, 2018, 04:54:49 pm »
I used to think this.  I think your argument shows a misunderstanding on how the value system of the average middle-income conservative works.  There's reasons they believe what they believe and "vote against their interests".
What is also missed is most conservatives understand that business is not evil and having a society where businesses can expand is good for everyone. IOW, they are voting for their self interest it is just they define their self interest in ways that the left cannot comprehend.

Offline Omni

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #146 on: March 12, 2018, 04:57:50 pm »
By that way of thinking, if you're not part of one of the identity groups the lefties love you'd be out of your **** mind to vote NDP. Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men. Also, if you're young, you'd be crazy to vote for a political party that wants to build up debt as high as possible - for you to pay off.

So if you're a middle class white male the NDP will see you as a walking wallet they can siphon money off of to pay to their favorite identity groups, and if you're a poor white guy the NDP will bring in hundreds of thousands of immigrants to take your job.

Oh, so I see you've had an attitude change. It used to be all the immigrants that came here didn't go to work. What changed your mind? 
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #147 on: March 12, 2018, 05:52:31 pm »
Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men.

Dude, you gotta get off that stuff it turns your mind to jelly.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #148 on: March 12, 2018, 05:57:47 pm »
By that way of thinking, if you're not part of one of the identity groups the lefties love you'd be out of your **** mind to vote NDP. Because the purpose of the NDP is to fight for the poor, disabled, gays and lesbians, blacks, Asians, Muslims, other immigrants AGAINST white people, and particularly against heterosexual white men. Also, if you're young, you'd be crazy to vote for a political party that wants to build up debt as high as possible - for you to pay off.

So if you're a middle class white male the NDP will see you as a walking wallet they can siphon money off of to pay to their favorite identity groups, and if you're a poor white guy the NDP will bring in hundreds of thousands of immigrants to take your job.
If you have a job where you make money for someone else, you would be better off destroying the entire system so you can regain your humanity. But I’m not holding my breath.

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Let the Caucus Pick the PC Ontario Leader ?
« Reply #149 on: March 12, 2018, 05:59:31 pm »
Dude, you gotta get off that stuff it turns your mind to jelly.
Argus seems to think the interests of the people he listed are mutually exclusive from heterosexual white men. That explains a lot about why he’s always fighting against them.
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