Author Topic: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?  (Read 1694 times)

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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2022, 05:49:01 pm »
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7. We don't disagree much at all.  I appreciate your values, I am only trying to get you to imagine beyond the horizon a little.

Cheers...

I don't disagree with you at all that AI will change our economics.  In fact, AI will eventually be so infinitely more intelligent than humans that it's limits will probably only depend on the energy it has to feed itself,  different material resources it can harvest, and the laws of physics.

The things it will invent and create are far beyond the human imagination.  So I find it a useless exercise to try and predict what's going to happen, it seems more logical to adapt as it happens.  Implementing a program now because something might ir might not happen decades from now seems illogical.

And yes you did change goalposts.  You were arguing let's have music on the streets and you didn't care what people did with their free money, and now you're talking about AI replacing jobs en masse in the future.  Neither are a good enough reason to Implement UBI right now if it's unconditional.  I don't think it should ever be unconditional.  The children of the billionaire AI owners shouldn't get free gov money to sit around.
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Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2022, 05:57:07 pm »
The economic case is we have a labour shortage. Why are we importing workers and talking about a UBI? TFW's involve a ton of expenses and red tape for employers.

Canadians don't want to work really hard on seasonal jobs for $15 an hour.

However, they don't mind doing nothing while drawing government income and having others or other generations pay for it

Hard to blame them.   As far as I can tell,  Canadians are acting rationally in their self-interests.

The only thing to do is only let them draw gov benefits if they can't get any other work, which means if farm jobs are available they have to take them.

Or if TFW are not allowed and thing like EI continues "suitable work" clause farmers would be forced to increase their wages offered to attract workers, which would cause food price inflation.
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Offline wilber

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2022, 06:58:27 pm »
1. ?  We are importing workers because we have a labour shortage seems like the obvious answer.
2. UBI is long term - shouldn't really bring in the day-to-day economic ebbs and flows...
3. You make it sound like they should be easier for employers - is that your intention ?

Yes we have a labour shortage, why do we want to make it worse with a UBI?
If we can't get locals to do the work we should make it easier. I know a lot of farmers who employ TFW's and they only do out of desperation because not enough Canadians will do the physical work regardless of what you pay them. On top of that, they aren't reliable, you never know from day to day if they will show up or even return from lunch.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2022, 08:03:09 pm »
And yet we have a half million TFW's in Canada.

Pay Canadians more for the work.  TFWs are great for companies that want to keep wages low.

Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2022, 08:07:32 pm »
Quote
why do we want to make it worse with a UBI?

You claiming so does not make it so. 

Offline wilber

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2022, 09:17:57 pm »
You claiming so does not make it so.
Neither does your claiming it doesn't.
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Offline wilber

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2022, 09:23:50 pm »
Pay Canadians more for the work.  TFWs are great for companies that want to keep wages low.
You aren't listening. Canadians don't want to do that work regardless of what you pay them. They work a few days until they get some money in their pockets and then they don't show up. If you are something like a dairy farmer where animals have to be cared for and milked 365, you can't operate with people like that. I know farmers who have tried for years and finally given up and got the TFW route which takes for ever and is very expensive. They don't like it but have no choice. You can bring a TFW over, he can work for you awhile and then go somewhere else and you are still responsible for getting him home if his visa expires even though he no longer works for you.

Now you want to make it easier for Canadians to do nothing.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2022, 10:44:02 pm »
Neither does your claiming it doesn't.

Where did I claim that?

Offline MH

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2022, 06:26:33 am »
1. Yes we have a labour shortage, why do we want to make it worse with a UBI?
 
1. No, UBI is years away


Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #99 on: January 26, 2022, 02:34:46 pm »
You aren't listening. Canadians don't want to do that work regardless of what you pay them. They work a few days until they get some money in their pockets and then they don't show up. If you are something like a dairy farmer where animals have to be cared for and milked 365, you can't operate with people like that. I know farmers who have tried for years and finally given up and got the TFW route which takes for ever and is very expensive. They don't like it but have no choice. You can bring a TFW over, he can work for you awhile and then go somewhere else and you are still responsible for getting him home if his visa expires even though he no longer works for you.

Now you want to make it easier for Canadians to do nothing.

Sounds like these dairy farmers arenít doing well at having good working conditions or pay for their employees.  Pay a decent wage and have good working conditions/benefits and people will take the job and retaining them will be easy.
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Offline wilber

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #100 on: January 26, 2022, 03:32:42 pm »
Sounds like these dairy farmers arenít doing well at having good working conditions or pay for their employees.  Pay a decent wage and have good working conditions/benefits and people will take the job and retaining them will be easy.

Doesn't matter what they pay, locals don't want to do the hard all weather work involved. Dairy farming is not seasonal like growing things although it involves field work as well. Trades pay really well but there is a shortage of tradespeople because physical work is no longer in style. Farmers are a business like anything else, they have to operate within their revenues. Things like feed prices are going through the roof and the increases in milk prices aren't keeping up with the farm costs.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #101 on: January 26, 2022, 04:35:03 pm »
Doesn't matter what they pay, locals don't want to do the hard all weather work involved. Dairy farming is not seasonal like growing things although it involves field work as well. Trades pay really well but there is a shortage of tradespeople because physical work is no longer in style. Farmers are a business like anything else, they have to operate within their revenues. Things like feed prices are going through the roof and the increases in milk prices aren't keeping up with the farm costs.

Exactly.  So they want cheap labour to try and make up for it.

Itís bad government policy to allow this to happen, but itís understandable why a farmer would bring in TFWs to save money on labour costs.
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2022, 08:18:07 pm »
Yes we have a labour shortage, why do we want to make it worse with a UBI?

UBI doesnít do what you claim it doesÖ

https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/sustainability/sustainability-12-09459/article_deploy/sustainability-12-09459-v2.pdf

Quote
We have verified in this article that there is no scientific evidence that confirms that a UBI causes a reduction in the labour supply at a general level, but rather the opposite. We have verified that only in particular cases does a small setback occur due to various causes that, to a great extent, improve individual, family, and general conditions of the economy. All this leads us to firmly deny this objection to the implementation of a UBI, despite the limitations of the methodologies in use.
Although it is not the subject of this systematic review, we have also found positive effects in other labour aspects: The improvement in working conditions in the worst jobs seems related to a greater capacity for labour negotiation; the increase in formal employment for lower jobs, especially if this measure replaces conditional transfers, due to the possibility of combining formal employment and benefit. Changes towards better jobs and entrepreneurship have also been observed. Another aspect of interest is the change in labour demand.

Offline Ginxa22

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Re: UBI - are you Aye or Nay?
« Reply #103 on: July 01, 2022, 02:25:37 am »
Wow peoples. Thank you for discussing the idea. I never said to run UBI in a 'permanent' state, it was only long enough for a person get his/her GED, then 2 yrs college. They can transfer their credits from college into university, so may not be full 4 yrs (avg) university education run, maybe 2 yrs. If abused, then locked out of the program for say, 5 yrs. Enough time for 'regret' wasting that 'gift' thoughts to run through their mind. Jobs are created by business, or 'creating' their own jobs (gigs, i.e., busking), selling jewellery on a designated 'street mart'. I was suggesting it as a temporary measure since illiteracy rates are running a little too high for comfort. This is Canada and everybody should be brought up to 'equal' footing. Yes, robotics are entering our work areas but those still need care too. Then there's space, maybe space mining will be a thing, colonizing  the moon, Mars or any of the other planets. At least Canadians would be 'educated to maybe foresee' future trends of jobs vs todays wandering along hoping a job is available. I'm just one those people who wouldn't mind seeing others 'shaking tree's' towards building a better society than what we have now. Idealistic? maybe, realist, yeah, that too.
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