Author Topic: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame  (Read 1525 times)

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Offline Granny

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2019, 06:48:29 pm »
Hamilton has issues but don't paint everyone with the same brush on either side. Our police force has been welcome at Fraser Valley Pride.
It's a local choice.

Toronto, not.
But police still did their job.

Hamilton Police did not, on orders.
I'm going to call that one issue.
'Whoever' it was has to wear it, hasn't yet.

I am shocked because that's not the norm.
(Some may differ on that.)

I don't think all officers felt gleeful about it.
Sometimes yelling at the brass is supporting the Officers. 😊
HPS aren't perfect, but they've been better than that.

Sometimes we have to yell at them, but in this case, just 'him'.


Offline TimG

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2019, 07:03:51 pm »
No 'audience' ever goes to hear hate groups.
People only go to oppose them, to drown them out.
IOW, you are completely in favor of the tactics that these "white supremacist" groups used to "drown out" speech which they opposed (in this case the pride event).

Of course, you lack the self awareness needed to realize that is what you are saying...



Offline Granny

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2019, 07:46:27 pm »
IOW, you are completely in favor of the tactics that these "white supremacist" groups used to "drown out" speech which they opposed (in this case the pride event).
They can't drown us out. Lol
Never happens.

They were kept far enough away from Pride Fest, by Pink Bloc and friends holding them behind a big black curtain, so kids, parents and all Pride folk could celebrate in peace.
Out of hearing range of their megaphone spewing hate and Christian bigotry.
They were not allowed to disrupt Pride Fest itself. And they didn't. It went on, went well, great day.

The bigots tried to get around/tear down the curtain, attacking people holding it. it was defended, Pink Bloc and friends defended themselves and each other and held them behind the curtain, away from Pride Fest ... for ~40 minutes.
While police, from quite a distance and on the Chief's orders, watched the bigots assaulting Pink Bloc & friends.
Stood down and watched assault hate crimes.
Aided and abetted by the Police Chief's hissy fit.

So, ya  the violent Christian hate creeps can try to shut Pride Fest 'free speech' down ...
but they can't do it. Lol


They're just stupid twisted violent hater creep criminals, who call themselves Christians.
Anybody here want to claim them as such? Lol
There are no "fine people" among the hate groups.

There's way more decent people out there facing them down, drowning them out, whatever it takes, holding curtains to protect kids, families, communities, etc. from hatred.

Always.
Way more decent people.
We are loud too.

NO HATE IN PUBLIC SPACES.

Until Police and the Attorney General do their jobs, collect evidence, and arrest hate groups for 'Public incitement of hatred against protected groups'
Section 319
Until Police lay charges of hate crimes for assaults ...

We'll just keep drowning them out, pushing them back so their hate is not heard.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 08:20:33 pm by Granny »

Offline TimG

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2019, 08:16:44 pm »
We'll just keep drowning them out, pushing them back so their hate is not heard.
IOW, you are as pathetic as the people you claim to oppose.
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Offline Granny

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2019, 08:27:28 pm »
IOW, you are as pathetic as the people you claim to oppose.
Wow. Twisted.

I'm one of the people who won't allow criminals  to incite hatred against people ... just because of who they are.

I can't say I'm surprised that you don't oppose hate groups in your town, TimG. Lol
Oh, and squid agrees with you too.
Doesn't surprise me either.

If you don't oppose hate groups harassing people in your towns, just because of who they are (gender ID, religion, race, etc.) ...
How Canadian can you be?
Really?

Hate groups are all about pushing their right to 'free speech' to the limits, to hatred.

Nobody HAS TO listen to that in a public space.

Your town may differ. Lol 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 08:46:15 pm by Granny »

Offline MH

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2019, 07:24:02 am »
IOW, you are as pathetic as the people you claim to oppose.

How do you propose that we respond to fascists ? 

Trenchant op-ed pieces won't do it.  Outright offensive violence isn't the answer either, IMO, but neither is reason.

Offline TimG

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2019, 07:55:11 am »
How do you propose that we respond to fascists ? 
Trenchant op-ed pieces won't do it.  Outright offensive violence isn't the answer either, IMO, but neither is reason.
First, I don't put inconsiderate jerks into different categories depending on their political leanings. Left wing fascists/hatemongers are just as much a concern as right wing fascists/hatemongers. Each plays tweedle dum to the other's tweedle dee.

Second, we to need to adopt a policy that exercising your free speech rights by getting in other peoples faces is not conducive to civil discourse so potentially conflicting groups will not be allowed to congregate in the same place at the same time. i.e. if pride books a park for a day the anti-pride protestors will need to find some place else suitably far away to exercise their free speech rights. Same rules apply when left wing groups are upset that some right wing group has an event or a speaker.

The police would need to enforce the separation requirement.



Offline cybercoma

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2019, 08:08:50 am »
It seems like a lot of you are really unfamiliar with the history of Pride. If you don't know what the Stonewall Inn is, then you should probably read about it and the origins of Pride.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/733500331/why-we-remember-stonewall

This might help you understand why police marching IN the Pride parades is inappropriate. And if you're arguing that it's a gesture of good will, they've yet to earn that right. If you think these aren't Canadian problems, then I suggest reading about Fruit Machine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_machine_(homosexuality_test)

« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 08:10:30 am by cybercoma »

Offline TimG

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2019, 08:26:36 am »
This might help you understand why police marching IN the Pride parades is inappropriate.
Whatever happened in the past is not an excuse for small minded bigotry today. More importantly, you don't build bridges and achieve reconciliation for a past wrongs by demonizing people doing the job today that had nothing to do with past wrongs.
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Offline MH

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2019, 09:03:38 am »
First, I don't put inconsiderate jerks into different categories depending on their political leanings. Left wing fascists/hatemongers are just as much a concern as right wing fascists/hatemongers. Each plays tweedle dum to the other's tweedle dee.

The tactics of violence and intimidation have a tradition with these alt-right types and that's what I'm asking about.

You don't need to 'oppose' Antifa as they themselves are a reaction to the original problem.

Quote
Second, we to need to adopt a policy that exercising your free speech rights by getting in other peoples faces is not conducive to civil discourse so potentially conflicting groups will not be allowed to congregate in the same place at the same time. i.e. if pride books a park for a day the anti-pride protestors will need to find some place else suitably far away to exercise their free speech rights. Same rules apply when left wing groups are upset that some right wing group has an event or a speaker.

The police would need to enforce the separation requirement.

Ok.  So if there's a women's march then the pro-life people can't attend ?  And a 'The Jews Are Evil' march should happen with police protection so they are not disrupted ?  I'm ok with saying that far-left and far-right both present problems but they are assymmetric and you can't create an objective criteria to respond right now.

Offline TimG

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2019, 09:19:24 am »
The tactics of violence and intimidation have a tradition with these alt-right types and that's what I'm asking about.
Lots of left wing groups use violence and intimidation. There is no "tradition" that is exclusive to alt-right types.

Ok.  So if there's a women's march then the pro-life people can't attend ?  And a 'The Jews Are Evil' march should happen with police protection so they are not disrupted ?
That is what free speech means. Exceptions apply to incitement for violence (ironically, the 'jews are evil' march is most likely going to come from left wing pro-Palestinian groups today).

I used to be more sympathetic to notion that hateful speech that does not incite violence should be limited, however, it has become clear that any such limits will be used by people to censor legitimate political speech because too many people take that the attitude that people who they do not agree with are "evil" and any opinions they have are "hate speech" by definition.

  I'm ok with saying that far-left and far-right both present problems but they are assymmetric and you can't create an objective criteria to respond right now.
The asymmetry exists only because many people are willing for tolerate left wing hate speech more than they will tolerate right wing hate speech. There is no asymmetry in the substance of the speech or the tactics used by the speakers.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 09:24:39 am by TimG »

Offline Granny

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2019, 09:54:46 am »

... we to need to adopt a policy that exercising your free speech rights by getting in other peoples faces is not conducive to civil discourse so potentially conflicting groups will not be allowed to congregate in the same place at the same time. i.e. if pride books a park for a day the anti-pride protestors will need to find some place else suitably far away to exercise their free speech rights.

That's what was done in Hamilton. The Christian bigots spewing amplified hatred and holding hate signs at Pride Fest were moved to a distance, behind a large curtain, to protect Pride Fest from disruption by their hatred. But it was Pride folk who had to move them, and they were violently attacked by the hate groups.

Police stood by watching assault hate crimes, and did nothing.

Quote
The police would need to enforce the separation requirement.
Nice theory.
Not reality.

Hate groups do not have equal 'free speech' rights under the law.
'Public incitement of hatred' against Pride Folk is a crime in Canada.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 09:57:16 am by Granny »

Offline Granny

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2019, 10:01:51 am »
The asymmetry exists only because many people are willing for tolerate left wing hate speech more than they will tolerate right wing hate speech.

Examples of "left wing hate speech" in Canada, please?

« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 10:17:26 am by Granny »

Offline kimmy

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2019, 10:05:26 am »
It seems like a lot of you are really unfamiliar with the history of Pride. If you don't know what the Stonewall Inn is, then you should probably read about it and the origins of Pride.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/28/733500331/why-we-remember-stonewall

This might help you understand why police marching IN the Pride parades is inappropriate. And if you're arguing that it's a gesture of good will, they've yet to earn that right. If you think these aren't Canadian problems, then I suggest reading about Fruit Machine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_machine_(homosexuality_test)



And some (myself included) have argued that the history of police and the gay community (in Canada, the bath house raids of the early 1980s being the genesis of the pride movement) is a reason why the police *should* participate. In wake of the handling of the Bruce MacArthur investigation,  there may be a strong argument that they really haven't earned the trust of the gay community.

But Pride events aren't banning police participation because of historical reasons. They're doing it because of demands from anti-racism activists in regard to current issues. So the history of the police and the gay community is kind of beside the point of the current debate.

 -k
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Offline kimmy

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Re: Hamilton Pride, Police Shame
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2019, 10:18:24 am »
If the topic is violence as a means of silencing others, then the right or alt-right certainly doesn't have a monopoly.  I think we've all seen the clip of Richard Spencer being punched in the head, and the dude in the Nazi arm-band getting KO'ed by some guy, and probably many similar incidents over recent years.

And it's hard to feel sorry for a guy like Richard Spencer or a dude in a Nazi armband getting punched. It kind of feels good to see it happen, doesn't it?

But the point is: some progressives are willing to use violence too.  Progressives by and large don't object to violence as long as they think the target of the violence deserves it.    And if the targets are people like Richard Spencer, or James Field and his tubby little alt-right friends at Charlottesville, then maybe they do deserve it.

But not everybody has the same idea of who deserves it.  It's not just Nazis who get punched.  Some progressive people thought student journalists covering the Mizzou protests a few years ago deserved to have force used on them too. Some progressive people think that TERFs deserve to get beat up.   If everybody gets to decide who deserves to get beat up, then everybody's going to get beat up by somebody someday.


 -k
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