Author Topic: Doug Ford Helps the Poor  (Read 746 times)

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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2018, 06:25:56 pm »
Its merely an accident that you have succeeded as well as yiu have, materially.

Seriously? You think those who have had more success  have only luck to blame? You don't think little things like intelligence, talent, drive and perseverance might be involved?

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Without the low wage earners you put yourself so high above, this country would grind to a halt.

I don't put myself above them, shrew. And without me and the others like me who pay 90% of the government's bills, just where do you think this country would be?

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But you are persuading me of one thing:  more socialism and less capitilsm is absolutely the goal.  Its only taken a couple of years of being exposed to your "arguments" to show me the clear path to a more humane and inclusive society.   You should be proud of your persuasive abilities.

Yes, if only people like you and the others on this site could make of us the same paradise as Venezuela has become.
 
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2018, 06:32:13 pm »
And without me and the others like me who pay 90% of the government's bills, just where do you think this country would be?

Not it was Atlas that had the weight of the world on his shoulders, not you.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2018, 06:35:18 pm »
They’re not paid according to either. The value of what they create is exploited.

What they create? What does a stock boy create? What does a barrista create? Or a cashier at a Wal-mart, or a restaurant server? What does a secretary create? How many people at lower levels create anything at all?

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Others profit off it, while they receive subsistence wages and even then that doesn’t happen.

Subsistence wages? The only people who get subsistence wages are those at the bottom. So maybe that should inspire them to improve their skillset so they make more? That's what it did for me, after all.

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To suggest that the value of labour can be below subsistence is a ludicrous proposition, since even slavery required the means to keep your slaves fed, clothed, and sheltered.

I didn't make any claim regarding subsistence. I merely pointed out that capitalism gives people payment in keeping with the value of their labour to the marketplace. If you want to earn a higher wage you need to increase your value by increasing your skills. And by the way, you seem to have forgotten why we work in the first place. We trade our labour for money to buy food, clothing and shelter. What you're complaining about is that some of the lower paid jobs ONLY do that, and don't give people luxuries. So what?

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Walmart today doesn’t even have to pay that since YOU bail them out with your taxes. If you’ve got a problem with how much you pay to support people who can’t support themselves, blame those in charge of the economic conditions of our society, not those being screwed by it.

Walmart pays enough to get by on. My basic complaint is that socialism is twisting our society to the point where the majority of voters have no economic responsibilities to support the government's they're voting for, and thus no concerns whatever with governments which increase taxes and debt. In fact, many of the socialist set get furious at the mere suggestion the government might cut back some of those free services they get, and castigate those who call for such things as immoral! They also, of course, as in this topic, get furious at those who suggest that they ought to be contributing something to the upkeep of the government they're allowed to vote for.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2018, 07:56:59 pm »
What they create? What does a stock boy create? What does a barrista create? Or a cashier at a Wal-mart, or a restaurant server? What does a secretary create? How many people at lower levels create anything at all?
They, along with everyone in the supply-chain, create the means of profit for the exploitative Walton family and majority shareholders. Their earnings completely disproportionate to the actual value they bring to the enterprise.

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Subsistence wages? The only people who get subsistence wages are those at the bottom. So maybe that should inspire them to improve their skillset so they make more? That's what it did for me, after all.
It’s a bread about minimum wage. No shit.

To your other point, the system is predicated on people at the bottom who are exploited. You give an abstract solution, so let me frame it as an abstract problem. What happens when EVERYONE improves their skills? Who is left to do the jobs that keep society running?
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I didn't make any claim regarding subsistence. I merely pointed out that capitalism gives people payment in keeping with the value of their labour to the marketplace. If you want to earn a higher wage you need to increase your value by increasing your skills. And by the way, you seem to have forgotten why we work in the first place. We trade our labour for money to buy food, clothing and shelter. What you're complaining about is that some of the lower paid jobs ONLY do that, and don't give people luxuries. So what?
Subsistence wages is the capitalist form. Business MUST reduce their costs to ZERO. That means paying labour as little as peossible. The minimum you can pay is just enough for them to “get by.” Since full employment is impossible in a capitalist economy, EVERYONE’s wages are driven down by a reserve army of unemployed labour that capitalists use to threaten their workforce. You didn’t say “subsistence,” but it is inherent in the ideas you’re throwing around.
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Walmart pays enough to get by on. My basic complaint is that socialism is twisting our society to the point where the majority of voters have no economic responsibilities to support the government's they're voting for, and thus no concerns whatever with governments which increase taxes and debt. In fact, many of the socialist set get furious at the mere suggestion the government might cut back some of those free services they get, and castigate those who call for such things as immoral! They also, of course, as in this topic, get furious at those who suggest that they ought to be contributing something to the upkeep of the government they're allowed to vote for.
Enough to get by on?

Ontario’s min wage is $11.40 per hour. Full time employees get 2080 hours per year. That’s $23712 per year, gross income. They say housing should cost you no more than 25% of your income. Have you seen many mortgages or apartments for less than $500/month? Or maybe you think people with full time jobs should cram together with strangers like the boarding houses of the past? The wages paid by these billionaires is an affront to the dignity of their workers.

But what do you care? You got yours, so fuck those who are struggling, right? They’re masters of their own destiny, as long as you ignore the fact that the capitalist system cannot, has not, and will not ever have full employment. You propose an impossible utopia of everyone being able to better hemselves and get out of that condition. Yet everyone improving is not even a remote possibility. Society requires people in those jobs and nothing they do will improve their lot. If one person leaves, another takes their place. There is no end where ALL have the dignity of enjoying the true profits of their labour. In capitalist society everyone has the freedom to be exploited.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2018, 08:01:38 pm »
What they create? What does a stock boy create? What does a barrista create? Or a cashier at a Wal-mart, or a restaurant server? What does a secretary create? How many people at lower levels create anything at all?



They create revenue for the company that pays them to do those jobs. What does an airline pilot create?
\Your arrogance is probably equally as overwhelming as your bigotry.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2018, 09:12:38 pm »
They, along with everyone in the supply-chain, create the means of profit for the exploitative Walton family and majority shareholders. Their earnings completely disproportionate to the actual value they bring to the enterprise.

That's a meaningless statement. By that logic any time anyone starts a business and hires anyone they're exploiting them. The Waltons had an idea. They started a store. They had ambition. They expanded and multipled their outlets. They had drive, smarts and worked their asses off. And btw, I don't shop at Wal-mart's and never have because I don't like their business practices.

Nevertheless. They created the enterprise. The others are simply unskilled people who agreed to exchange their time for the money the Waltons paid them. It's an agreement freely entered into  by both sides.

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To your other point, the system is predicated on people at the bottom who are exploited. You give an abstract solution, so let me frame it as an abstract problem. What happens when EVERYONE improves their skills?

There will always be a scale of skills. By the standards of a few  generations ago almost everyone is skilled. Everyone can read, for one thing. Virtually everyone can use a computer. That sure as hell wasn't the case in the 1980s.

And there is always a learning curve. Those who start out have few skills. When I first worked in an office I did data entry. That was my only skill. Then I became a low level clerk, and as my skills accumulated I was paid more and promoted higher. That's how the system works.

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Who is left to do the jobs that keep society running?Subsistence wages is the capitalist form.

Nonsense. Nobody forces you to continue working for subsistence wages.  You improve your skillset and earn more. Or... if you don't have the drive, or motivation or ability, then yes, you live on subsistence wages.

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The minimum you can pay is just enough for them to “get by.” Since full employment is impossible in a capitalist economy, EVERYONE’s wages are driven down by a reserve army of unemployed labour that capitalists use to threaten their workforce.

Except we know that's not true. There have been many, many instances where unemployment became low enough, including in Alberta recently, as well as in any number of US states, where even fast food workers were in short supply and could command much higher than subsistence wages. This has been short-circuited, to some degree, in Canada, by the federal government bringing in temporary foreign workers to do those jobs, thus sparing businesses the need to increase wages. I have been 100% against that policy.

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Ontario’s min wage is $11.40 per hour. Full time employees get 2080 hours per year. That’s $23712 per year, gross income. They say housing should cost you no more than 25% of your income. Have you seen many mortgages or apartments for less than $500/month?

I lived on considerably less than that much of my life. Ontario's minimum wage is $14hr btw. But never mind. If you get $2,000 a month gross, given you pay virtually no taxes (or what you do pay gets refunded) you can, at least in this city, find an apartment, without sharing, for $800 which includes heat and water. Pay probably $75 month for hydro and what else is absolutely necessary but your food? And you've got plenty for that, plus cable and internet.

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But what do you care? You got yours, so fuck those who are struggling, right? They’re masters of their own destiny, as long as you ignore the fact that the capitalist system cannot, has not, and will not ever have full employment.

No one ever said the Capitalist system was without flaws. But every other proposal has proven to be disastrous. And the Capitalist system has uplifted billions from poverty. The world is richer than it has ever been, and I'm not simply talking about the 0.01% (the actual rich). When you compare the ordinary standard of living of the bulk of people around the world, those in Capitalist nations have all risen enormously in the last century. Even those in most third world nations have risen enormously.

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You propose an impossible utopia of everyone being able to better hemselves and get out of that condition.

Not at all. I fully support social welfare programs that help those who are unable to support themselves. What I don't support is removing the incentive, which human nature requires, for people without skills to improve their skills and better themselves. If I had been able to earn a 'guaranteed income' back when I was working the midnight shift as a security guard or an all-night service station, or an evening janitor,  I would have quit rather than do those jobs. I would have quit my data entry job, too. What motivated me was my desire to improve my life by continually learning new things and applying for different jobs.

One of the clear memories of my life is trying to decide whether to go and take yet another government test for a job. It was in the early morning and I was working an evening shift would would not see me in bed before 2am. I finally decided to sacrifice the sleep and just go for it. It was a very close decision since I really like my sleep and I really was pessimistic at the time. But I did go and I did get hired. Where socialism fails is in refusing to take human nature into account. Remove the economic incentive to work harder, longer or improve yourself and many, many people will do none of that. That's why socialism has been a catastrophe wherever it's been employed, and has only succeded in LOWERING everyone's standard of living across the board.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 09:16:01 pm by SirJohn »
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2018, 09:14:01 pm »
They create revenue for the company that pays them to do those jobs. What does an airline pilot create?
\Your arrogance is probably equally as overwhelming as your bigotry.

But vastly surpassed by your ignorance and petulant whining about other people having different opinions than you.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum
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Offline Omni

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2018, 09:19:45 pm »
But vastly surpassed by your ignorance and petulant whining about other people having different opinions than you.

Once again that's rich coming from you. But anyway I guess you think I'm supposed to go to Starbucks and make my own coffee and then pay for it, and then I guess wash the dishes too eh?

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2018, 09:24:00 pm »
Once again that's rich coming from you. But anyway I guess you think I'm supposed to go to Starbucks and make my own coffee and then pay for it, and then I guess wash the dishes too eh?

Why would I care what you do or where you went?
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2018, 09:30:51 pm »
Why would I care what you do or where you went?

Well you've demonstrated you have no idea what a Starbucks is all about, even though you weigh in as if you did.

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2018, 09:49:25 pm »
It appears our skilled one needs to learn the differences between communism and socialism. i guess all those pinkos look the same to him.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2018, 09:55:25 pm »
It appears our skilled one needs to learn the differences between communism and socialism. i guess all those pinkos look the same to him.

I guess we should point out to him that socialism allows capitalism. But then he's too worried over having to pay some tax to pay attention.

Offline kimmy

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2018, 12:00:35 am »
When did the budget become nothing but a means of Marxist income redistribution? I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't want anyone to starve or freeze to death. I don't want people not having health care. But it bothers me how many people pay nothing and expect these great government services to continue and keep growing. 87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

Holy fuck.

You know, poor people would pay more taxes if they had more money.  FUCK. It's not complicated. 


And the rest?

Seniors?  Children? Students? The unemployed? Others who have very little or no income at all?

Yes, I imagine those people will continue to pay very low taxes, because YOU CAN'T GET BLOOD FROM A STONE.



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Masked for your safety.
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Offline Omni

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2018, 12:22:50 am »
Holy fuck.

You know, poor people would pay more taxes if they had more money.  FUCK. It's not complicated. 


Seniors?  Children? Students? The unemployed? Others who have very little or no income at all?

Yes, I imagine those people will continue to pay very low taxes, because YOU CAN'T GET BLOOD FROM A STONE.



 -k

Big business likes small wages. Flow that money into the CEO's pocket and fuck everybody else. Trump was effective at it partially by simply defaulting on payments to contractors and declaring bankruptcy.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2018, 11:16:20 am »
It appears our skilled one needs to learn the differences between communism and socialism. i guess all those pinkos look the same to him.

Did I mention Communism? It seems to me I've mentioned Socialism and Marxism. Marx was a Socialist philosopher who posited Socialism as a midterm step before reaching the 'utopian' goal of Communism.

Back to you, genius.
"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum