Author Topic: Doug Ford Helps the Poor  (Read 695 times)

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Offline MH

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Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« on: April 18, 2018, 05:39:39 am »
https://globalnews.ca/news/4149786/doug-ford-minimum-wage-plan-math/

0% income tax for minimum wage means $850 tax savings, along with rolling back the minimum wage increase which begs the question:

- Isn't this more government vote buying ?
- Don't conservatives say that the working poor pay "nothing" ?  70$ a month seems like a lot to a poor person, and amounts to basic health care and social assistance insurance.


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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 06:21:51 am »
https://globalnews.ca/news/4149786/doug-ford-minimum-wage-plan-math/

0% income tax for minimum wage means $850 tax savings, along with rolling back the minimum wage increase which begs the question:

- Isn't this more government vote buying ?
- Don't conservatives say that the working poor pay "nothing" ?  70$ a month seems like a lot to a poor person, and amounts to basic health care and social assistance insurance.
ending the wage increase actually reduces their net earnings. Being paid more, yet still paying taxes would earn them more in a year.

So congrats Doug. You’ve fooled people into thinking they’ll have more when (1) they’ll have less and (2) the government will also have less revenues,

Offline MH

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2018, 06:49:34 am »
"less revenues" = "lower revenues"

This is the epitome of Republican politics right here.  Then again, Wynne is the epitome of Liberal politics.

I pine for a Prairie NDPer of days past....

Offline cybercoma

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2018, 11:13:38 am »
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4623450

The proportionate advantage of the wage increase is even greater for part-time workers. For someone working 25 hours a week:

* Ford's plan would provide a tax credit of about $396 a year.
* the $15/hr minimum wage would provide extra take-home pay of about $970 a year.

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2018, 11:48:01 am »
When did the budget become nothing but a means of Marxist income redistribution? I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't want anyone to starve or freeze to death. I don't want people not having health care. But it bothers me how many people pay nothing and expect these great government services to continue and keep growing. 87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

And the rest? They keep voting for parties that offer to give them more stuff, and for more and more income redistribution. Andrea Horvath's platform calls for even more free stuff, and she says she'll 'ask the rich to pay just a little more'. Of course, by 'the rich' she doesn't mean those with limousines. She means doctors, lawyers, small businessmen, and people like me. And she's not the only one. Every budget, every election, people like her and Wynne ask 'the rich' to pay 'just a little more' so that the poor - defined as virtually everyone else, pays nothing. The tax base keeps narrowing as more and more people are removed from it, and these people will then bleat about their poor lot in life and demand more goodies they aren't paying for.

I don't like Ford's promise because it plays into that mentality that you vote for whatever party gives you the most free stuff. But realistically, minimum wage earners pay no taxes now anyway. Once you figure in the basic personal amounts for both federal and Ontario taxes, and basic deductions most lower earners look forward to tax time as the time of year they get a big fat cheque from the government for their refund.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline Omni

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2018, 12:38:49 pm »
When did the budget become nothing but a means of Marxist income redistribution? I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't want anyone to starve or freeze to death. I don't want people not having health care. But it bothers me how many people pay nothing and expect these great government services to continue and keep growing. 87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

And the rest? They keep voting for parties that offer to give them more stuff, and for more and more income redistribution. Andrea Horvath's platform calls for even more free stuff, and she says she'll 'ask the rich to pay just a little more'. Of course, by 'the rich' she doesn't mean those with limousines. She means doctors, lawyers, small businessmen, and people like me. And she's not the only one. Every budget, every election, people like her and Wynne ask 'the rich' to pay 'just a little more' so that the poor - defined as virtually everyone else, pays nothing. The tax base keeps narrowing as more and more people are removed from it, and these people will then bleat about their poor lot in life and demand more goodies they aren't paying for.

I don't like Ford's promise because it plays into that mentality that you vote for whatever party gives you the most free stuff. But realistically, minimum wage earners pay no taxes now anyway. Once you figure in the basic personal amounts for both federal and Ontario taxes, and basic deductions most lower earners look forward to tax time as the time of year they get a big fat cheque from the government for their refund.

In Canada the total income taxes collected are paid by 67% of workers. And yes the rest have wages too low to be required to pay income tax. That of course doesn't mean they don't pay sales taxes on whatever they buy so they do contribute in that way.
It is interesting though to hear you on the one hand try to convince us all of how "rich" you are, and then turn around and bitch about having to pay a higher rate. I guess you would like to get yourself into that 1% bracket but you ain't making it so you're pissed off. This will really get in your craw as well, I worked for a good many years rotating overseas and so was able to avail myself of the OETC. Made for nice checks back from the CRA.   

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2018, 02:26:23 pm »
In Canada the total income taxes collected are paid by 67% of workers. And yes the rest have wages too low to be required to pay income tax. That of course doesn't mean they don't pay sales taxes on whatever they buy so they do contribute in that way.

And get that money refunded by GST refunds.

Several years ago, which is several years of "let's have the rich just pay a little more" ago, I posted a cite which said that 97% of taxes were paid by the top 50% of earners, while the lower 50% paid 3%. I would suppose that by now that 3% has fallen to 0. And I don't imagine for one second that our tax system is LESS progressive than the one the Republicans just put in place. So if the top 20% pay 87% there, that's probably the case here.

Quote
It is interesting though to hear you on the one hand try to convince us all of how "rich" you are, and then turn around and bitch about having to pay a higher rate. I guess you would like to get yourself into that 1% bracket but you ain't making it so you're pissed off. This will really get in your craw as well, I worked for a good many years rotating overseas and so was able to avail myself of the OETC. Made for nice checks back from the CRA.

The complete absence of logic in this post is of course, standard fare for you. Somehow you're trying to suggest I'm ticked off not because I pay high taxes but because I'm not in the 1% (a completely arbitrary figure btw). Then you go on to brag about paying no taxes yourself. And of course, you're the sort whose vote depends on who offers the most free stuff.

Someone with a better grasp of logic, or at least an average IQ, would probably figure someone bitching about high taxes probably earns a substantial amount of income in order to pay those taxes, but I suppose neither of those prevails in your case.


"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline ?Impact

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2018, 02:43:40 pm »
87% of income taxes are paid by just 20% of taxpayers in the US, and it's probably worse here.

The start paying people a decent wage and stop robbing them of their hard labour to feather your nest.

guest4

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2018, 02:49:29 pm »
And of course, you're the sort whose vote depends on who offers the most free stuff.
Thought you couldn't read minds.

Lacking your amazing ability to read people's minds I


guest4

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2018, 02:55:38 pm »
The start paying people a decent wage and stop robbing them of their hard labour to feather your nest.

Nope.  He's posted about how people like police, firefighters etc. in Canada are overpaid already, relative to other countries.  He has an odd idea of how this should all work..

Plan:
1.  Reduce wages wherever possible;
2.  Increase taxes on lower earners;
3.  Decrease the taxes he pays.

Result:
1.  Make more people less able to afford necessities;
2.  Make even more people even less able to afford necessities;
3.  Reduced government services and infrastructure due to reduced tax revenue.
4.  Make him evee richer.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2018, 02:57:04 pm »
The start paying people a decent wage and stop robbing them of their hard labour to feather your nest.

This belief that people should be paid according to their needs, as opposed to their value is pure Marxism.

Of course, what you people have done is actually expanded the definition of 'needs'. It's no longer acceptable that they merely get paid enough for food, clothing and shelter. Now they need to be paid enough to have a comfortable life.

As for my 'robbing them of their labour', comrade, I work for myself, and get my money from largely foreign entities. The only people who work for me are the ones who shovel my snow and cut my grass.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

Offline SirJohn

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2018, 03:01:19 pm »
Nope.  He's posted about how people like police, firefighters etc. in Canada are overpaid already, relative to other countries.  He has an odd idea of how this should all work..

Plan:
1.  Reduce wages wherever possible;
2.  Increase taxes on lower earners;
3.  Decrease the taxes I pay.

Simplistic and dishonest, as per your usual. My belief in Capitalism does, I know, distress you socialists, but all my economic beliefs are purely in line with Capitalist economic theory. People should be paid according to what their value is to the market, not according to their 'needs' - which is the way socialists would have it.

And government workers should not be an exception to this. They should be paid whatever is necessary to attract and retain sufficient numbers of capable employees to do the job. No more, no less. Clearly police, firefighters, teachers, bus drivers etc. are paid far more than is necessary. You could attract sufficient people for far less.

Benefits should have responsibilities. If you're a part of a society and benefit from it you ought to be helping to pay for it. If you're not then you're a freeloader living off others.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum

guest4

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2018, 03:22:13 pm »
Simplistic and dishonest, as per your usual. My belief in Capitalism does, I know, distress you socialists, but all my economic beliefs are purely in line with Capitalist economic theory. People should be paid according to what their value is to the market, not according to their 'needs' - which is the way socialists would have it.

And government workers should not be an exception to this. They should be paid whatever is necessary to attract and retain sufficient numbers of capable employees to do the job. No more, no less. Clearly police, firefighters, teachers, bus drivers etc. are paid far more than is necessary. You could attract sufficient people for far less.

Benefits should have responsibilities. If you're a part of a society and benefit from it you ought to be helping to pay for it. If you're not then you're a freeloader living off others.

Its merely an accident that you have succeeded as well as yiu have, materially.  It has nothing to do with your value as a person or even your value to the economy.   Without the low wage earners you put yourself so high above, this country would grind to a halt. 

But you are persuading me of one thing:  more socialism and less capitilsm is absolutely the goal.  Its only taken a couple of years of being exposed to your "arguments" to show me the clear path to a more humane and inclusive society.   You should be proud of your persuasive abilities.
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Offline cybercoma

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2018, 04:11:59 pm »
This belief that people should be paid according to their needs, as opposed to their value is pure Marxism.
They’re not paid according to either. The value of what they create is exploited. Others profit off it, while they receive subsistence wages and even then that doesn’t happen. To suggest that the value of labour can be below subsistence is a ludicrous proposition, since even slavery required the means to keep your slaves fed, clothed, and sheltered. Walmart today doesn’t even have to pay that since YOU bail them out with your taxes. If you’ve got a problem with how much you pay to support people who can’t support themselves, blame those in charge of the economic conditions of our society, not those being screwed by it.
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Offline ?Impact

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Re: Doug Ford Helps the Poor
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2018, 04:25:36 pm »
How is Ford going to track minimum wage earners? All taxes are based on total income, not your rate of pay. I guess Ford is going to spend a few more billion revamping the tax system to make those account, or perhaps several tens of billion to create Ontario's own tax system because the CRA is not under his control.

Deficits will spiral out of control under a financially, business, and fiscally incompetent Doug Ford.