Author Topic: Danforth Shooting  (Read 1345 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2018, 05:03:18 pm »
Um, no. Any oof we who actually look at the stats know that both your 1) and ) are false and simply pablum for bigots to eat. I guess you could argue that having your girlfriend shun you causing enough anger to make you take a gun to school is a form of mental illness, but those cases often erupt without any prior warning, and are usually carried out by whiter guys.

You're right, not the only reasons, I stand corrected.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2018, 05:04:47 pm »
Is that supposed to be a joke? Seriously unsure.

yes
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Goddess

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2018, 05:23:29 pm »
Why not both?  What if the family of this shooter produced doctor reports, prescriptions, psychiatric notes about his paranoia and delusions, would you then allow that maybe he had mental issues, as well as being Muslim and fanatical?

Also, when you see people on the street wearing sandwich signs proclaiming God's Kingdom is nigh and calling on passers-by to repent, do you assume that their religious fanaticism means they are mentally sound?  Or do you think that part of their illness is the fanaticism?

Its interesting to me the push to remove "mental illness" from this guy by the same people who were only too happy to apply it to Bissonet, even though the profiles of the two killers seems pretty similar at this point and remarkably similar to many of the school shooters in the US.

Jesus H Christ on a cracker, woman!  Get off your high horse!

I'm just saying that I don't believe that ALL religious fanaticism is a result of mental illness.  I leave that for the courts to decide.



"A religion without a Goddess is half-way to atheism."

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2018, 05:26:26 pm »
Given his name I am sure many will jump to the conclusion that thus was radical Muslim terror, but there doesn't appear to be anything to suggest that this was anything more than a mentally ill individual acting out.

This is from a statement from the family, seemingly coordinated with the police and media given the timing his ID and the statement from family was released.  This isn't proof he was mentally ill, it's an allegation from the family.  He certainly could have been.  He could have been mentally ill and radicalized also.  Or none of the above.  We won't know the real story until we know the evidence.

CBS News (and American outfit, interestingly) is reporting the attacker allegedly was already known to police for online activity and visited ISIS websites, which itself proves nothing (anyone can visit a website).  In the article there's a fair bit of speculation rather than evidence, which I find unprofessional & suspect.

TORONTO -- Canadian investigators were digging Tuesday into the life of the 29-year-old man who opened fire on restaurants and cafes in a popular Toronto neighborhood, seeking to explain what prompted the rampage that killed a 10-year-old girl and a young woman and wounded 13 others. Investigators in Canada have indications that Faisal Hussain visited Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) websites and may have expressed support for the terrorist group, a law enforcement source told CBS News senior investigative producer Pat Milton.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faisal-hussain-toronto-shooting-rampage-new-details-emerge-about-gunman-2018-07-24/

We have to understand that within government there are certain sensitive subjects that become very politicized because of the public response that will come from it, and those cases will be handled differently and much more carefully than others by gov because of PR.  For instance, any crime, especially rape, from a Syrian refugee living in Canada would be carefully handled by authorities because of the anticipated PR and negative public response to such news.  A Muslim person committing a mass shooting would also be dealt with differently than a white shooter because it causes a PR mess and a backlash against Muslims in Canada.  Now imagine if this guy was a former ISIS fighter the gov was trying to rehabilitate?  This would be a PR disaster for the Trudeau government and would be handled very, very carefully with coordination between police, federal government, and the media.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2018, 05:32:55 pm »
Its odd that the family had a statement prepared practically as soon as the name was released.

Exactly.  It suggests a possible coordination between the police, the family, and the media to control the information being released.  If the family released the statement 2 days later it would be too late in a PR sense, because that would be 2 days of the public seeing a Muslim name attached to a mass shooting and of course most assuming this was terror related.

What's also a bit odd is that they still haven't revealed if the attacker died by suicide or by police fire.  That would be pretty easy to figure out quickly.  Or maybe they're waiting for the autopsy, who knows.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

guest4

  • Guest
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2018, 05:33:11 pm »
No.  Muslim extremists rationalize murder using religious loopholes.  They have an elaborate ideology to morally justify their violence, they aren't usually mentally ill.

I think there is an issue with mental illness any time someone can just mow innocent people down.  Doesn't matter what "ideological loophole" they use.  An incel decides women deserve to die because they've forgotten their proper role in relation to men; a White Supremacist decides Jews, Blacks, Muslims or immigrants need to die becaise the White race\Western Culture needs to be saved or protected; a kid decides to shoot classmates because notoriety is a worthwhile goal - even posthumously; a Muslim decides non-Muslims should die because they have failed to properly honor Allah.  None of.these reasons make sense to a person who thinks normally or rationally.

What the vast majority of.these people have in common are that they are male, young, loners and lack a sense of belonging to their culture or society.

 

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2018, 05:35:08 pm »
The cops clearly gave them the heads up.

Apparently he lived with the parents.  I'd assume the police questioned them and searched the home first.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

guest4

  • Guest
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2018, 05:40:47 pm »
Exactly.  It suggests a possible coordination between the police, the family, and the media to control the information being released.  If the family released the statement 2 days later it would be too late in a PR sense, because that would be 2 days of the public seeing a Muslim name attached to a mass shooting and of course most assuming this was terror related.
I agree.  It won't help a bit if he had a history of mental illness, regardless of when the information comes out; he is Muslim, therefore this is terrorism.

Quote
What's also a bit odd is that they still haven't revealed if the attacker died by suicide or by police fire.  That would be pretty easy to figure out quickly.  Or maybe they're waiting for the autopsy, who knows.
If they have to retrieve the bullet from somewhere inside, the autopsy might indeed be necessary.  Might also be a delaying tactic.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2018, 05:53:04 pm »
Its interesting to me the push to remove "mental illness" from this guy by the same people who were only too happy to apply it to Bissonet, even though the profiles of the two killers seems pretty similar at this point and remarkably similar to many of the school shooters in the US.

Given the specificity the family gave about his history of illness, I'd find it probable him having mental illness is true.

As for religious fanaticism and mental illness, they can be linked but certainly don't have to be.  I know smart people who graduated university who believe Noah's Ark really happened.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Goddess

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2018, 05:55:17 pm »
I think there is an issue with mental illness any time someone can just mow innocent people down.  Doesn't matter what "ideological loophole" they use.  An incel decides women deserve to die because they've forgotten their proper role in relation to men; a White Supremacist decides Jews, Blacks, Muslims or immigrants need to die becaise the White race\Western Culture needs to be saved or protected; a kid decides to shoot classmates because notoriety is a worthwhile goal - even posthumously; a Muslim decides non-Muslims should die because they have failed to properly honor Allah. None of.these reasons make sense to a person who thinks normally or rationally.

What the vast majority of.these people have in common are that they are male, young, loners and lack a sense of belonging to their culture or society.

It might not make sense rationally, but that does not mean they are "mentally ill".

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/health/mass-murderers-mental-illness.html

Quote
Analyzing his database, Dr. Stone has concluded that about 65 percent of mass killers exhibited no evidence of a severe mental disorder; 22 percent likely had psychosis, the delusional thinking and hallucinations that characterize schizophrenia, or sometimes accompany mania and severe depression. (The remainder likely had depressive or antisocial traits.)

In a 2016 analysis of 71 lone-actor terrorists and 115 mass killers, researchers convened by the Department of Justice found the rate of psychotic disorders to be about what Dr. Stone had discovered: roughly 20 percent.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180509-is-there-a-link-between-mass-shooting-and-mental-illness

Quote
Senseless tragedies like mass shootings also provoke and demand answers – preferably ones that are also accompanied by easy fixes, says Jeffrey Swanson, a professor of psychiatry and behavioural sciences at Duke University School of Medicine. “We want life to be safe and predictable and to make sense,” he says. “The normal reaction is to want an oversimplified master explanation so you can put it in this box and say, ‘Ah, it’s mental illness’..’”

That knee-jerk conclusion is problematic, he continues, because it encourages even more stigmatisation of people who have a mental illness, many of whom already have extremely difficult lives and already face discrimination in several areas, namely housing, jobs, and relationships. Individuals suffering from mental illnesses are actually three times more likely than the average person to be victims of violence, as they are more vulnerable.

http://behavioralscientist.org/myth-mental-illness-causes-mass-shootings/

Quote
In their 2016 edited book Gun Violence and Mental Illness, psychiatrists Liza Gold and Robert Simon summarize the evidence debunking the myth that mental illness is a leading cause of gun violence. As they report, less than 5% of shootings are committed by people with a diagnosable mental illness. Like mentally healthy offenders, the mentally ill are far more likely to shoot people they know rather than strangers. The mentally ill are also far more likely to be victims of gun violence rather than perpetrators. These data suggest that the link between mental illness and mass shooting exists in our minds, not in reality.

This makes sense if we step back and think about it. Only four percent of the population will be diagnosed with a severe mental illness. Only one percent of the population is psychopathic, and only one percent of the population is schizophrenic, and sadism is so rare there is no agreed upon psychiatric diagnosis for it. As Gold and Simon report, the vast majority of people with these mental illnesses will not perpetrate gun violence. Therefore, even if the small fraction of the already small fraction of people diagnosed with mental illness were more likely to commit gun violence, they would not be able to account for most gun violence because of their low numbers.



Quote
Perpetuating the myth that mental illness is the cause of mass shootings only serves to stigmatize the mentally ill even further. In addition, it distracts from the more difficult conversation that must be had over gun-control in America.
[/b]
"A religion without a Goddess is half-way to atheism."

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2018, 05:58:15 pm »
I think there is an issue with mental illness any time someone can just mow innocent people down.  Doesn't matter what "ideological loophole" they use.  An incel decides women deserve to die because they've forgotten their proper role in relation to men; a White Supremacist decides Jews, Blacks, Muslims or immigrants need to die becaise the White race\Western Culture needs to be saved or protected; a kid decides to shoot classmates because notoriety is a worthwhile goal - even posthumously; a Muslim decides non-Muslims should die because they have failed to properly honor Allah.  None of.these reasons make sense to a person who thinks normally or rationally.

What the vast majority of.these people have in common are that they are male, young, loners and lack a sense of belonging to their culture or society.

They're also very angry, so they lash out in violence.  You could say they're all emotionally troubled if you're that angry.  Is that the same as all those kids who joined the army after 9/11 to kill terrorists because they were angry?  Is Toby Keith mentally ill?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruNrdmjcNTc

I guess it depends on what you consider mental illness?  There's a difference in someone being isolated and PO'd and someone suffering psychosis.

Quote
I think there is an issue with mental illness any time someone can just mow innocent people down.  Doesn't matter what "ideological loophole" they use.

But in a Muslim terrorists ideology, the innocent people aren't "innocent", they're either infidels complicit in causing violence in Muslim lands or apostates & heretics and enemies of Allah. What's the line between stupid and crazy?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 06:01:59 pm by Coonlight Graham »
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

guest4

  • Guest
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2018, 06:07:48 pm »
It might not make sense rationally, but that does not mean they are "mentally ill".
Good point, definitely my own bias coming out there.

guest4

  • Guest
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2018, 06:16:50 pm »
But in a Muslim terrorists ideology, the innocent people aren't "innocent", they're either infidels complicit in causing violence in Muslim lands or apostates & heretics and enemies of Allah.
Well, in an incel ideology, the women aren't innocent, they're guilty of rejecting him and failing to accept their role as his sexual property.  To a White Supremacist, Blacks/Jews/Muslims/immigrants are guilty of taking advantage of White generosity, while stealing what rightfully belongs to Whites and imposing their culture on Whites.  To the school shooter, his classmates are guilty of failing to acknowledge and honor his specialness. 

Quote
What's the line between stupid and crazy?
True. 

guest4

  • Guest
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2018, 06:27:35 pm »
Given the specificity the family gave about his history of illness, I'd find it probable him having mental illness is true.
Me too, but many won't. 

Quote
As for religious fanaticism and mental illness, they can be linked but certainly don't have to be.  I know smart people who graduated university who believe Noah's Ark really happened.
I guess I don't consider being religious per se as being either fanatical or crazy.  It's when your behavior takes you far outside behavioral norms for either the religion and/or your society that I would think those terms apply.  Spending one's life reciting the Koran, literally falling dead while doing it, preaching on a bullhorn while standing on a street corner wearing a "repent" sandwhich sign, covering your mobility scooter in huge signs with Biblical verses, shooting abortion providers or shooting people who don't share your belief- those are all outside norms, imo, and suggest some degree of fanaticism and/or mental illness.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Danforth Shooting
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2018, 07:48:58 pm »
Well, in an incel ideology, the women aren't innocent, they're guilty of rejecting him and failing to accept their role as his sexual property.  To a White Supremacist, Blacks/Jews/Muslims/immigrants are guilty of taking advantage of White generosity, while stealing what rightfully belongs to Whites and imposing their culture on Whites.  To the school shooter, his classmates are guilty of failing to acknowledge and honor his specialness.  .

Right.  Are any of them mentally ill though?  Some people just have really upside-down values.  It's hard to even call Hitler crazy, because he had a party of followers who believed in the same ideology as he did, they weren't all crazy.  They were fanatical right-wing extremists similar to islamist terrorists.

There's mental illness where people lose touch with reality, like psychosis/schizophrenia.  Then there's people who also have chemical imbalances like depression, mania, extreme anxiety.  Then there's people with rage issues who snap, not even sure if that's a mental illness or just uncontrollable emotions.  It's complicated to draw a line I guess.  I would consider a shooter mentally ill if they do not have the capacity to reason what they're doing, or make choices for their actions based on reality around them.  I dunno
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.