Author Topic: Canadian healthcare  (Read 2302 times)

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Offline The Cynic

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2021, 12:23:26 pm »
Canadian healthcare kinda sucks, at least in my experience in multiple cities.  It's much faster to see a doctor at a walk-in clinic than to see a doctor when you go to the ER.  Think about that for a minute.  By faster I mean 30 mins to 1hr vs 4-6 hrs.

If you're going to have a universal system it means it's rationed, based on how much money is spend on it by the gov.  So if you're going to have a universal single-payer system, the gov has to fund it adequately.  If they don't it's a human rights issue.  Forcing people to have 1 option that is mediocre or at times garbage is cruel.

So fund our healthcare properly.  Stick your childcare and Canada Summer Jobs stuff up your anus and put that money into healthcare.

We spend a lot on healthcare, but much of it is not wisely spent nor well organized. The system needs a major revamp in light of today's circumstances of an aging population living longer.

Unfortunately, no one is going to make any changes aside from the Conservatives. Liberals think they invented universal health care, and so it is without flaws. In reality, the only reason Trudeau set it up this was was his man-crush on Fidel Castro. The NDP, meanwhile, think they invented the current system and it is an outgrowth of all good Socialists hatred of the profit motive. Of course, this is not the system Tommie Douglas came up with. His had user fees, just as a start. And I don't think the good comrades would approve that today. Neither party will do a thing, other than perhaps grudgingly put a little more money into it.

Not saying the Tories will make it better, just that they're the only ones who would ever consider major changes.

Offline MH

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2021, 12:40:22 pm »
Duelling lists can be solved by simply posting how the rankings were arrived at.

Weighted metrics ?  What metrics and how weighted ?

Surveys ?  Meh.  But at least tell me who was surveyed.

Offline waldo

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2021, 12:48:48 pm »
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world

WHO puts us at #30 in efficiency
https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

Hopefully this will provide more of the in depth analysis
that waldo craves but on the other hand, US News may be his ultimate authority.

no - that US News reference you presume to denigrate is actually a collaborative undertaking between The Wharton Business School (typically referred to as the #1 business school in the U.S.), BavGroup and US News. But really, apparently you're too thick to realize the waldo already busted your WHO ranking (that's actually a 2000 report that relies upon 1993-1997 data) - how timely of you, hey member wilber! LOL!

World Population Review rankings for 2021 puts Canada at 30. France still #1.

geezaz member wilber... you've got to be purposely trolling! I mean, c'mon... don't you find it strange/odd that those numbers line up exactly with the 2000 WHO rankings you bungled earlier? Wait waldo, surely someone will tell wilber the World Population Review rankings are simply a reference to those same 2000 WHO rankings... surely! Oh my!


Even the countries listed above us in waldo's list have national systems.

and again, of those 3 countries, the waldo did a cursory review of #1 Sweden and busted your bullshyte in my most immediate prior post; again, as I just posted:

=> the role of private health insurance in Sweden:
Quote
Private health insurance, in the form of supplementary coverage, accounts for less than 1% of health expenditures. It is purchased mainly by employers and is used primarily to guarantee quick access to an ambulatory care specialist and to avoid wait lists for elective treatment. In 2017 Sweden's population was approximately 10 million; of which 633,000 individuals had private insurance, representing roughly 13% of all employed individuals ages 16 to 64 years.

Offline waldo

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2021, 12:57:30 pm »
Duelling lists can be solved by simply posting how the rankings were arrived at.

Weighted metrics ?  What metrics and how weighted ?

Surveys ?  Meh.  But at least tell me who was surveyed.

the best attempts at country healthcare comparisons emphasize broad caveats that outline review limitations in being able to arrive at legitimate and representative criteria... notwithstanding the difficulty in taking non-standardized criteria and related data gathering and processing and, more pointedly, just how respective country data was arrived at and utilized in the first place. The waldo only engages in this stoopid exercise when chasing down the throw-away comparisons that the likes of member wilber keeps flaunting!

Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2021, 12:57:47 pm »
Duelling lists can be solved by simply posting how the rankings were arrived at.

Weighted metrics ?  What metrics and how weighted ?

Surveys ?  Meh.  But at least tell me who was surveyed.

The WHO study was 20 pages of how they arrived at their ratings.

Personally I don't think our system sucks but its two biggest obstacles are our fragmented provincial systems and Canadian's propensity to shout about Americanizing our system when any change is proposed. The fact is, the best performing systems all have some private component so instead of screaming America to drown out any reform, maybe we should be looking at how to do it right.

Another big problem is our political parties themselves. Trudeau and Singh go on about things like daycare, pharmacare and guaranteed minimum wage, all of which will be financed with more debt. How about properly supporting the systems we already have before bringing in a bunch more we can't afford. It's part of that infrastructure they keep going on about.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2021, 01:06:52 pm »
We spend a lot on healthcare, but much of it is not wisely spent nor well organized. The system needs a major revamp in light of today's circumstances of an aging population living longer.

Unfortunately, no one is going to make any changes aside from the Conservatives. Liberals think they invented universal health care, and so it is without flaws. In reality, the only reason Trudeau set it up this was was his man-crush on Fidel Castro. The NDP, meanwhile, think they invented the current system and it is an outgrowth of all good Socialists hatred of the profit motive. Of course, this is not the system Tommie Douglas came up with. His had user fees, just as a start. And I don't think the good comrades would approve that today. Neither party will do a thing, other than perhaps grudgingly put a little more money into it.

Not saying the Tories will make it better, just that they're the only ones who would ever consider major changes.

When some provinces tried to bring in user fees for a few services, the feds threatened to cut off federal health care contributions.

Yet ironically, provincial governments can charge health care premiums.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 01:10:48 pm by wilber »
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Offline waldo

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2021, 01:09:01 pm »
The WHO study was 20 pages of how they arrived at their ratings.

and again, was formally referenced in a WHO 2000 report... that relied upon 1993-1997 data - geezaz, some of that reference is shortly coming up to being 30 years old! And you actually presume to present this as representative of... of... anything?

Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2021, 01:11:31 pm »
and again, was formally referenced in a WHO 2000 report... that relied upon 1993-1997 data - geezaz, some of that reference is shortly coming up to being 30 years old! And you actually presume to present this as representative of... of... anything?

Our system has got worse over the last 30 years, not better.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC
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Offline waldo

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2021, 01:19:43 pm »
When some provinces tried to bring in user fees for a few services, Chretien threatened to cut off federal health care contributions.

it's called adhering to the Canada Health Act!

so instead, we have end-around attempts from Conservative led provinces that allow encroachments on public health care... just like your boy O'Toole/CPC weasel-words with his call for, "private innovation" in public health care! Thing is, it became a campaign non-starter and O'Toole continually deflected from answering once journalists started to ask him to qualify what he actually meant by it! Perhaps you can pick up for your boy and actually state what Conservatives mean when talking of, private innovation in public health care - yes?

Offline MH

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2021, 01:19:54 pm »
the best attempts at country healthcare comparisons emphasize broad caveats that outline review limitations in being able to arrive at legitimate and representative criteria... notwithstanding the difficulty in taking non-standardized criteria and related data gathering and processing and, more pointedly, just how respective country data was arrived at and utilized in the first place. The waldo only engages in this stoopid exercise when chasing down the throw-away comparisons that the likes of member wilber keeps flaunting!

This intelligent response also tells me you *would be good at deflecting criticism...

I concur that "BEST" lists aren't the best.  CIHI provides Canadians with health stats that we should be looking at, and nobody has even heard of it.  See my many posts on this topic:

https://repolitics.com/forums/search/?q=CIHI%20health%20healthcare&author=Michael%20Hardner&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and

Offline waldo

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2021, 01:28:08 pm »
Our system has got worse over the last 30 years, not better.

a nothingness statement without supporting detail! Again, if you're chastising the status quo and touting privatization, don't be shy in presenting just what your boy O'Toole/CPC meant by promising public innovation in public healthcare - sure you can!
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Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2021, 01:29:46 pm »
it's called adhering to the Canada Health Act!

so instead, we have end-around attempts from Conservative led provinces that allow encroachments on public health care... just like your boy O'Toole/CPC weasel-words with his call for, "private innovation" in public health care! Thing is, it became a campaign non-starter and O'Toole continually deflected from answering once journalists started to ask him to qualify what he actually meant by it! Perhaps you can pick up for your boy and actually state what Conservatives mean when talking of, private innovation in public health care - yes?

Let's get something straight. O'Toole isn't my "boy". You are the only one here with a "boy". Everyone but you seems to be able to discuss different issues without your fawning partisanship.

I agree that O'Toole should have had some specific proposals before he brought it up but as Kim Campbell so accurately said. "Elections are no time to discuss serious issues" Because they never are discussed seriously, only as political talking points. What were the arguments against O'Toole's comments other than AMERICA.

We need private innovation, the question is how to do it without damaging the public system. Unfortunately even talking about it is a non starter in this country.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 01:31:19 pm by wilber »
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Offline waldo

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2021, 02:19:58 pm »
What were the arguments against O'Toole's comments other than AMERICA.

hard to have a discussion/argument when your boy O'Toole ran away and/or deflected and/or refused to answer what he meant by, "private innovation in public health care". But you're no better here: apparently, you can't even address what it means let alone offer examples of same:

We need private innovation, the question is how to do it without damaging the public system. Unfortunately even talking about it is a non starter in this country.

Offline wilber

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2021, 02:28:43 pm »
hard to have a discussion/argument when your boy O'Toole ran away and/or deflected and/or refused to answer what he meant by, "private innovation in public health care". But you're no better here: apparently, you can't even address what it means let alone offer examples of same:

Try addressing it yourself.
"Never trust a man without a single redeeming vice" WSC

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: Canadian healthcare
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2021, 02:36:20 pm »
Per capita, the US spends twice as much as Canada on health care and yet their system hasnít handled this pandemic any better than ours.  If you look at the countries that out perform us, all have national systems rather than our Balkanized provincial setup which results in a lot of expensive duplication in many areas.

The US system is not defendable nor would I want it in Canada.  But our system has its problems too.  There's a myth where we all idolize our universal healthcare system, and i think it's a good ideal to have (universal healthcare for everyone), but that doesn't mean its beyond criticism or that its the best possible system simply because the US system has so many problems.  Because the US system sucks doesn't mean everything private is bad.  If you make private highly regulated and access equatable why wouldn't it work?  People will use examples of the US because it's the only one that seemingly exists, but the US isn't regulated enough nor is it very equatable, so using it to compare isn't useful.
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