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Author Topic: BC provincial election  (Read 11209 times)

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Offline wilber

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #255 on: October 27, 2020, 11:45:05 am »
Quote from: the_squid on October 27, 2020, 11:08:53 am
NAFTA is a binding agreement.  This most certainly was not.

Then why have an agreement at all? Weaver  and Horgan signed on behalf of their caucus, Furstenau was a member of that caucus and it was just as binding on her as it was on Horgan and Weaver. Using Weaver's retirement as an excuse to break it is just being ingenuous.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #256 on: October 27, 2020, 12:34:00 pm »
The new legislature is a very positive situation in which the Greens can go along for the ride. They'll have to get it through their heads that they're not going to ever become government, but they can attain most of their agenda alongside the NDP.

 And at least they can speak as a conscience to the NDP by seconding and showing support for the NDP's more progressive members while putting down the NDP's fakers who are using the NDP for their rightist ambitions.

Is the political right in B.C. done like dinner. I think so and they are going to have seriously modify their agenda leftwards if they ever want to appeal to the people again.
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Offline wilber

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #257 on: October 27, 2020, 12:50:10 pm »
Quote from: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 12:34:00 pm
The new legislature is a very positive situation in which the Greens can go along for the ride. They'll have to get it through their heads that they're not going to ever become government, but they can attain most of their agenda alongside the NDP.

 And at least they can speak as a conscience to the NDP by seconding and showing support for the NDP's more progressive members while putting down the NDP's fakers who are using the NDP for their rightist ambitions.

Is the political right in B.C. done like dinner. I think so and they are going to have seriously modify their agenda leftwards if they ever want to appeal to the people again.

How old are you? No one is ever done like dinner, everything is temporary. In 2001 the NDP was done like dinner with only two seats. The Liberals do need a major rebuild but their problem is more one of trust than ideology.

I think the Greens have a future. Weaver quitting was a real positive for them as he must have been a bitter man to stab is former caucus in the back and support Horgan.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #258 on: October 27, 2020, 01:08:22 pm »
Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 12:50:10 pm
How old are you? No one is ever done like dinner, everything is temporary. In 2001 the NDP was done like dinner with only two seats. The Liberals do need a major rebuild but their problem is more one of trust than ideology.

Don't get over excited by a term wilbur. Maybe the B.C. Libs can make a comeback and maybe they will have to try to form a more acceptable coalition of the right again, under a new label? In any case I would suggest that the right as represented by the Libs in B.C. is going to have to pull in their horns and modify their agenda so it's more acceptable to citizens of the 21st. century.
I've asked you and others many times to at least try to state the agenda of a modern rightist party and I've received nothing.

Quote
I think the Greens have a future. Weaver quitting was a real positive for them as he must have been a bitter man to stab is former caucus in the back and support Horgan.

Why would you think the Greens have a future? The green philosophy has a future obviously but the Greens are too narrow on everything else to be considered as a prospect for government.

The NDP already own the Greens' prospective agenda, and they also at least partly own the environmental issues of the Greens. Not to suggest they aren't good people with the right views on the important environmental issues, but just to say their agenda is taken and they're treading water.

As an aside, issues over fossil fuels need a nuanced approach in the 21st. century and the Greens can't be that. That makes them too far ahead of the people of the privince.
[/quote]
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #259 on: October 27, 2020, 01:10:46 pm »
Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 09:13:55 am
The agreement was signed on behalf of their caucuses, it wasn’t just an gentleman’s agreement between the two of them. If the leaders of two countries sign an agreement on behalf of their countries, does that agreement become invalid if one of the countries selects a new leader? Does NAFTA become invalid if Trump loses the election. When you sign something on behalf of someone else, those aren’t just empty words. Unless you are a politician.

Sure, but my point wasn't about the leaders representing the caucuses.

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."

Andrew Weaver became an independent in January 2020 and by all accounts there was a lot of in-fighting between the Greens (why else did he suddenly change his mind about remaining as leader until they find a new leader, and why else would he burn it down and endorse Horgan).

A main criteria of the agreement was stability and 3 Green party MLA's.  When that went out the window, so did the agreement.  So yes, Horgan started planning accordingly.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #260 on: October 27, 2020, 01:17:24 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on October 27, 2020, 01:10:46 pm
Sure, but my point wasn't about the leaders representing the caucuses.

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."

Andrew Weaver became an independent in January 2020 and by all accounts there was a lot of in-fighting between the Greens (why else did he suddenly change his mind about remaining as leader until they find a new leader, and why else would he burn it down and endorse Horgan).

A main criteria of the agreement was stability and 3 Green party MLA's.  When that went out the window, so did the agreement.  So yes, Horgan started planning accordingly.

You can equate the Greens' problems to the Reforms on the federal level. It was a bad marriage between the left and the right that was made in hell and destined to failure. After the environmental issues that all of the Greens can relate to and agree upon, they are stuck with two opposite agendas fighting against each other for power.

Not a pleasant prospect for them to admit to but they can't ever sweep it under the carpet. So which side of the political spectrum are they going to satisfy? Because the other side will quickly abandon ship!
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Offline wilber

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #261 on: October 27, 2020, 01:37:59 pm »
Quote from: BC_cheque on October 27, 2020, 01:10:46 pm
Sure, but my point wasn't about the leaders representing the caucuses.

"Both caucuses recognize that, in order to promote the greater stability, the government must be able to negotiate with the three BC Green Party MLAs as a single, recognized caucus."

Andrew Weaver became an independent in January 2020 and by all accounts there was a lot of in-fighting between the Greens (why else did he suddenly change his mind about remaining as leader until they find a new leader, and why else would he burn it down and endorse Horgan).

A main criteria of the agreement was stability and 3 Green party MLA's.  When that went out the window, so did the agreement.  So yes, Horgan started planning accordingly.

What evidence do you have that the agreement wasn't being honoured other than Horgan's word? Do you really expect me to believe the Greens would have brought the government down over $10 daycare, because I don't. Do you?

I listened to an interview of Weaver by Lynda Steele I think, just before the election was called. He said he would support anything Horgan did and no matter how hard she tried to get an actual position, all he did was deflect. She tried to tie him down on several different issues and all he did was dance. I got to thinking, why is he wasting her time by even coming on and why am I wasting my time listening? The only opinion he had was that he had no opinion, on anything. I never did like the guy and now I know why.

I'd like to see the Greens become a real force in BC. After 70 years of the same old, same old, it would be refreshing.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 02:01:09 pm by wilber »
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Offline wilber

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #262 on: October 27, 2020, 01:54:06 pm »
It's a big majority but almost half the eligible voters stayed home. The lowest voter turnout in BC history. When you look at the popular vote, the NDP got 45% of the actual vote, almost 10% more than the Liberals but it represented only 23% of eligible voters. Hardly a ringing endorsement of anyone.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #263 on: October 27, 2020, 02:02:24 pm »
Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:54:06 pm
It's a big majority but almost half the eligible voters stayed home. The lowest voter turnout in BC history. When you look at the popular vote, the NDP got 45% of the actual vote, almost 10% more than the Liberals but it represented only 23% of eligible voters. Hardly a ringing endorsement of anyone.

No matter how you try to cut it, it's an endorsement of the NDP and it's conslusive just in the fact that the contrary side was decisively less. Those who stayed home could be reasonably considered to be happy with the status quo government in power.

I believe one of the biggest factors for the NDP majority win is that the heart has been ripped out of the political right because of US politics of madness!
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Offline BC_cheque

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #264 on: October 27, 2020, 02:05:23 pm »
Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:37:59 pm
What evidence do you have that the agreement wasn't being honoured other than Horgan's word? Do you really expect me to believe the Greens would have brought the government down over $10 daycare, because I don't. Do you?

Let's assume it was all a crock.  It still doesn't change the fact that the terms of the agreement were changed when Weaver stepped down.  Stability of government and 3 Green MLA's were no longer in effect as the agreement explicitly stated.

I didn't bring up the agreement - you did.  You're trying to make it as though Horgan broke an agreement and I am just pointing out that you can say a lot of things, but the agreement is not a black/white issue.  The terms changed in January.

Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:37:59 pm
I'd like to see the Greens become a real force in BC. After 70 years of the same old, same old, it would be refreshing.

Me too.  Especially with Fursteneau at the helm.

Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:54:06 pm
It's a big majority but almost half the eligible voters stayed home. The lowest voter turnout in BC history. When you look at the popular vote, the NDP got 45% of the actual vote, almost 10% more than the Liberals but it represented only 23% of eligible voters. Hardly a ringing endorsement of anyone.

Yes, that's what the losing side always says, including me when Liberals have huge seats in proportion to the popular vote.  Horgan tried to bring electoral reform, if I recall you were against it.

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Offline Montgomery

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #265 on: October 27, 2020, 02:11:48 pm »
At least the Greens have a pretty face and that's a huge consideration in all politics.
How sad that they're still just Greens with an environment agenda but with both rightists and leftists supporting them.

It's a marriage made in hell just as the Fed Reform party was.

Not a significant problem as the NDP will pick up the environmental issue ina nuanced way that can become acceptable to the people of  the province.
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Offline wilber

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #266 on: October 27, 2020, 02:42:50 pm »
Quote from: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 01:08:22 pm

Why would you think the Greens have a future? The green philosophy has a future obviously but the Greens are too narrow on everything else to be considered as a prospect for government.

The NDP already own the Greens' prospective agenda, and they also at least partly own the environmental issues of the Greens. Not to suggest they aren't good people with the right views on the important environmental issues, but just to say their agenda is taken and they're treading water.

As an aside, issues over fossil fuels need a nuanced approach in the 21st. century and the Greens can't be that. That makes them too far ahead of the people of the privince.

You assume the Greens can't change and adapt like other parties. That may be a mistake. It is also clear that public opinion has been moving closer to the Greens on environmental issues, not away from them.
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Offline Montgomery

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #267 on: October 27, 2020, 02:52:28 pm »
Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 02:42:50 pm
You assume the Greens can't change and adapt like other parties. That may be a mistake. It is also clear that public opinion has been moving closer to the Greens on environmental issues, not away from them.

If you think they can change and adapt then you're going to have to suggest that which they could become. You most likely can't.

Future hard decisions on environmental concerns will be up for interprations of their necessity, just as much as you are indecisive on those issues. In other words, their leftist faction will do battle with their rightists.

But go ahead and tell us how you think the Greens can evolve and adapt.
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Offline wilber

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #268 on: October 27, 2020, 05:26:55 pm »
Have you looked at their platform? I don't think they need to change that much, it's more the public getting used them and seeing them as a viable alternative. That's a tough thing to do in what has been basically a two party system for decades. I'd be willing to make a wager they will increase their share of the vote. They managed to keep the same number of seats and popular vote even though their new leader was only a week on the job when the election was called. People were saying the NDP would wipe them out this election. Weren't you one of them? It didn't happen.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 05:30:06 pm by wilber »
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Offline Squidward von Squidderson

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Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #269 on: October 27, 2020, 05:40:19 pm »
Quote from: wilber on October 27, 2020, 05:26:55 pm
Have you looked at their platform? I don't think they need to change that much, it's more the public getting used them and seeing them as a viable alternative. That's a tough thing to do in what has been basically a two party system for decades. I'd be willing to make a wager they will increase their share of the vote. They managed to keep the same number of seats and popular vote even though their new leader was only a week on the job when the election was called. People were saying the NDP would wipe them out this election. Weren't you one of them? It didn't happen.

If only you supported proportional representation, you would see that the Greens would have influence that reflected their votes, the NDP would be severely reduced in their power based on the votes received. 

You wouldn’t be here complaining!  You’d be celebrating the fact that the NDP weren’t “rewarded for lying”. 

Yet here we are....  NDP massive majority with 45% of the vote.
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