Author Topic: BC provincial election  (Read 748 times)

Offline msj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Location: Vancouver Island
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2017, 02:45:57 pm »
I guess I am looking at this and wondering how BC is better off with a stalled legislature.

I know Clark is supposed to do the right thing and step aside, according to the NDP/GP, but really I think the GP should have done the right thing and formed a minority government with the LP since together they would have a proper majority with a speaker taken from their ranks.

My take away here, as a guy who let his wife talk him into voting for the LP due to the local candidate but who was thinking of voting Green because I hate Clark, is that I no longer can trust the GP to do what makes sense: join with whichever party will take you to 44+ seats and allow for a speaker (so, have at least 45 seats).

Yes, this means compromise.

Instead, we have a GP that may have been swayed by an electorate who do not know of the difficulties of administering a legislature and committees without a clear majority.

What this means to me is that not only will I never vote for the NDP, but I will now no longer even consider the GP.

We saw the vote for the LP go down from 45% in the 2013 election to 40% this election.  I wonder how much of that is disgruntled (with Clark) LP supporters?

If so, it may be good to see the NDP/GP muddle through for a period of time as a reminder to these people that there is a reason to vote LP even if we do not like the leader - because the other side can't do basic math and we are not even discussing the deficit budgets yet.

The other take away for me is how much Andrew Weaver reminds me of Harper.

I hated Harper for his cold political calculations at the expense of good policy - cut the GST, bring in boutique tax credits, bring in the UCCB rather than boost the existing CTB system, that sort of thing.

For Weaver, it is going to be with his environmental policy where he often was taking reasonable positions but now will clearly move further into what people think the GP is supposed to be: some kind of left wing environmental policy shift without regard to staking out some middle ground like what Trudeau has tried to achieve with Notley and Clark.

For example, Weaver on oil sands: http://www.nature.com/news/canadian-oil-sands-defusing-the-carbon-bomb-1.10110 

But that was then and this, opportunity, is now.


I've gotta have more cow bell! -Bruce Dickinson

Offline kimmy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 663
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2017, 08:56:17 am »
"Guys! Guys!  Look guys! I'm affordable too! I'm all about affordability! I love affordability! Guys! We're getting rid of tolls! We're boosting funds for stuff!  We're doing all the stuff we opposed last month! Because I love affordability now!"

 -Kim City/Lost Lake MLA Christy Clark, "the affordability premier."

Offline dia

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Questioner
  • Location: Fraser Valley
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2017, 09:14:19 am »
@msj. Why would you never vote NDP?

@Kimmy.  It will probably confuse enough people to give her a majority next time out and she/they can go return to their regular graft.
Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2017, 11:30:17 am »
@msj. Why would you never vote NDP?

You know, I found out this election that my husband would never vote NDP and it really irked me.

I may be a hard lefty who has found herself aligned with the NDP both federally and provincially for the last few elections, but I could never rule out a political party all together.

In the past I have voted for different parties on both federal and provincial levels and it all depends on the circumstances.  What party is in power, how long they've been there and what have they been doing.  Who actually has a shot of winning in my riding.  Who has the most tolerable platform. 

Heck, I could even vote CPC if the circumstances were right and I would never say never just because of their past policies or their party colours. 

I asked msj a while ago about his reasons for not voting NDP provincially and I know they're different than my husband's, but as far as my husband goes, I lost a lot of respect this election.  He knew the Liberals needed to go, he knew the Greens didn't stand a chance in our riding, yet he just couldn't vote for the NDP because... the 90's. 

It's so small minded.


Offline dia

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Questioner
  • Location: Fraser Valley
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2017, 02:35:46 pm »
In the 80s I was a JW and paying no attention to politics.  I do remember very high interest rates, jobs lost and house prices falling dramatically in the late 80s.  Looking back, it seems the SoCreds were in power and when the NDP took over, they reformed as the Liberals.  So to me it looks the NDP took over when the economy was already on a downhill slide and are then blamed for everything, even though objective examination shows little difference between Liberal and NDP economic performance overall - both parties have highs and lows depending very much on what's happening outside their control.

Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.

Offline msj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Location: Vancouver Island
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2017, 03:12:47 pm »
@msj. Why would you never vote NDP?

Lots of reasons:

I am a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian - so there is no way I am going to vote for the BC Conservative party, for example, as they are socially conservative.

Well, the NDP are fiscally irresponsible, imo, so no way I will ever vote for them.

NDP are anti-business - they have a few good ideas and then some nut case, usually the NDP candidate running in my riding, will say something so stupid, yet so typically NDP, that there is just no way I can trust any of them.

Prior experience - the NDP were awful in the 1990's and that is a legitimate memory and legitimate reason to not vote for them - there is no evidence that this group would be any less incompetent than that bunch.

Then there are specific policies like child care that I will not support.  I am fine with child care subsidies via tax credits/deductions but not direct for everyone. I like the Kevin Milligan solution of refundable tax credits, for example.

Finally, this grab for power by them and the Greens proves that they, and the Greens, just do not understand basic math.

The government should be the Liberals and the Green's who compromise with their 45 seats plus 1 speaker.

For the GP and NDP to attain and then maintain power with 43 plus 1 speaker is possible but not ideal. 

If they can't understand that simple concept then they will be hopeless at budgeting. Therefore, back to being a fiscal conservative hence no dice to vote for them.


I've gotta have more cow bell! -Bruce Dickinson

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2017, 03:45:49 pm »


I may be a hard lefty who has found herself aligned with the NDP both federally and provincially for the last few elections, but I could never rule out a political party all together.
 

Me neither.  Thanks to Doug Ford I will probably vote for John Tory for mayor next election.  It's exciting !

Offline MH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2017, 03:46:33 pm »
In the 80s I was a JW and paying no attention to politics.

Whoa.  That's a thread right there.

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2017, 03:49:33 pm »
NDP are anti-business -

I think our tax system is incredibly biased in favour of businesses leaving a disproportionate amount of the tax burden on the working and middle class.

I know the justification is that businesses provide jobs and without providing an attractive environment for them they'd up and leave but having worked on the financial end of things in industry, I can say that 1-2% changes in tax rates have very little to do with important business decisions like whether or not to conduct business in a particular region.

If a business can outsource somehow, it will.  If it has to remain local, it will adapt.

Personally, I think the playing field needs to be evened out and businesses need to start sharing more of the tax burden. 

This doesn't make me anti-business, it makes me pro-middle class. 

Note, I'm not a payroll employee, but I do feel for them.  The current system really isn't fair to them. 

I think the NDP recognizes that and like me, that doesn't make them anti-business.  They just want a more fair tax system.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:51:12 pm by BC_cheque »

Offline msj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Location: Vancouver Island
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2017, 07:19:27 pm »
The last time the NDP were in power the personal tax rates in this province were 8.4%, 12.4% and 14.35% and an additional surtax at rates of 30% and 15% (of the provincial tax) making them some of the highest in Canada/North America.

The corporate tax rate for small business was over 5% and for big business was over 16%.

And those are just the provincial rates.

Compare that to today's personal rates of 5.06%, 7.70%, 10.50%, 12.29% and 14.70% without any surtax and 2.5% for small corporations and 11% for big.

Huge difference and there is no doubt that they will raise income taxes because that is what they do - always have, always will.

I've gotta have more cow bell! -Bruce Dickinson

Offline dia

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Questioner
  • Location: Fraser Valley
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2017, 08:23:09 pm »
Along with that we also have the second worst poverty rate in Canada, which includes children.   BC is the only province without a poverty reduction plan.  Most people, and especially people who are in the.lower economic echelon were better off financially in the 90s, despite the higher taxes.  In rhe 90s it was much easier to find affordable housing, whether buying or renting.  Low taxes are not the defining indication of a well run economy or society.


Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.

Offline msj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Location: Vancouver Island
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2017, 08:38:17 pm »
I'm going to ask for a citation on that poverty rate comparison between the 1990's and present.

Hard to come up with consistent data but the numbers I am seeing show that it is lower today than it was during most of the 1990's and lower than in the early 2000's.
I've gotta have more cow bell! -Bruce Dickinson

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2017, 09:29:28 pm »
The last time the NDP were in power the personal tax rates in this province were 8.4%, 12.4% and 14.35% and an additional surtax at rates of 30% and 15% (of the provincial tax) making them some of the highest in Canada/North America.

The corporate tax rate for small business was over 5% and for big business was over 16%.

And those are just the provincial rates.

Compare that to today's personal rates of 5.06%, 7.70%, 10.50%, 12.29% and 14.70% without any surtax and 2.5% for small corporations and 11% for big.

Huge difference and there is no doubt that they will raise income taxes because that is what they do - always have, always will.

They're only proposing a 1% increase in corporate tax rate bringing the province on par with the other provinces and eliminating tax cuts for the top 2%.

If you put your crystal ball of what they'll actually do aside for a minute and just debates the proposed increases, don't you agree it's more pro-middle class, and not at all anti-business?

 

Offline dia

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Questioner
  • Location: Fraser Valley
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2017, 09:56:29 pm »
I'm going to ask for a citation on that poverty rate comparison between the 1990's and present.

Hard to come up with consistent data but the numbers I am seeing show that it is lower today than it was during most of the 1990's and lower than in the early 2000's.

Sure.  But please note that I referenced BCs poverty rate relative to the rest of Canada, not to the 1990s.  BC used to be at the national average, and lower than other provinces, but now is among the worst in terms of number of people living in poverty.

BC poverty rate has declined a bit since the 90s, but is now the second highest in Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/reality-check-b-c-s-child-poverty-rate-1.1307393



Other provinces have done better in reducing poverty since 1990s
Between 1990 and 1996, BC's poverty rate tended to be at or around the national average and lower than many other provinces.
http://www.ccsd.ca/factsheets/fscphis2.htm

Other provinces have reduced their poverty rates, while BC has not - this table shows poverty rates to 2010.   
https://cpj.ca/files/docs/poverty-trends-scorecard.pdf

This trend continues to 2016:
http://campaign2000.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016-BC-Child-Poverty-Report-Card.pdf

As BC's poverty rate has increased, while employment and overall wealth has gone up, taxes have gone down: 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taxes/tax-season-2015-where-in-canada-do-you-pay-the-most-tax-1.2507059

In summary, BC increases it's overall wealth, decreases taxes and does nothing to alleviate poverty.

As for life being more affordable in the 1990s, it was possible to find a place to rent or buy - even in the lower mainland and even at the lower end of the middle-income level.   This is because while housing (and all) costs have risen substantially since the 1990s, income has not risen proportionately.
http://globalnews.ca/news/2531266/one-chart-shows-how-unprecedented-vancouvers-real-estate-situation-is/
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-563/p1-eng.cfm

Once again, low taxes do not imply a successful economy or a well-functioning society.

By the way, it's not necessarily that I think Liberals are "responsible" for this state of affairs; I just object to the simple minded notion that any political party can be held entirely responsible for what the economy does during it's tenure.  Nonetheless, in a province that we're told constantly is doing so 'well' economically relative to the rest of Canada, why is our poverty rate so high?   Why isn't the government willing to share the fruits of our labor with those who are temporarily out of work or those who are simply unable to work?   




Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.

Offline BC_cheque

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: BC provincial election
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2017, 10:13:11 pm »
Sure.  But please note that I referenced BCs poverty rate relative to the rest of Canada, not to the 1990s.

It always comes back to the 90's with the anti-NDP crowd.  The Liberals could torch all of BC but we'll still be hearing about why the NDP is not a viable alternative because... the 90's.