Author Topic: 2022 Ontario Election  (Read 2727 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2022, 08:40:46 am »
Twitter does not reflect reality. On both sides of the political spectrum.

The Ontario Liberals were so scandal plagued and Del Duca played a huge role in that government, that the stink does not go away from it. 

The Gas Plant scandal ?  That was... 3 governments ago ?

Offline Boges

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2022, 08:57:28 am »
The Gas Plant scandal ?  That was... 3 governments ago ?

It's cumulative. The Wynne Liberals were decimated. They've done little to earn back anyone's trust.

Offline MH

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2022, 09:03:03 am »
It's cumulative. The Wynne Liberals were decimated. They've done little to earn back anyone's trust.

OK well how long do you expect that to stick ?  The Gas Plant scandal was 2011.

Offline segnosaur

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2022, 09:08:53 am »
OK well how long do you expect that to stick ?  The Gas Plant scandal was 2011.
Some people might be more concerned about "who's involved" rather than "how long has it been".

If you have a shady politician involved in scandals, but they are still involved with party politics a decade later, you might be a bit more nervous about supporting the party as compared to a situation where any politician involved with the scandal has been replaced within a couple of years.
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Offline Boges

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2022, 09:12:16 am »
OK well how long do you expect that to stick ?  The Gas Plant scandal was 2011.

I don't hear anyone talking about the Gas Plant. I certainly didn't mention it.

Let's say the stink of McWynnty lasts for more than four years and when they select a leader that was a key minister in that government it gets extended.

I distinctly remember Del Duca justifying Hydro increases as the price of a cup of coffee. He's out of touch.

The reason I'll outright reject him is that I don't trust that the Liberals won't return to masking and restrictions the minute COVID cases swing back up in the Fall, which they undoubtably will.

As mentioned in this thread already, he's already pledged to add COVID vaccination to a child's Yellow Vaccine card. That's insane!
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Offline segnosaur

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2022, 09:22:00 am »
Re: Liberal/NDP plans for rent controls...
I think there should be a maximum amount for an increase, and it should be very modest.  But an actual cap on how much one can charge?   Thatís a great way to push more rental units to become Air BNBs.
Setting limits on an increase is typically the way rent controls actually work.

It sounds good in a simplistic/popular way, but it has unexpected side effects...

- People who might be willing to build new units (large real estate developers, small homeowners who want to rent out part of their house, etc.) will decide "my profits are limited building rental units, so I will find something else to do with my money". And existing units will be taken out of circulation, if building owners think "I can earn more profit if I take these cheap rental units and convert them to condos, or retail space".

- If an investor DOES decide to build rental units, they will focus on higher-end units, where they can get premium rents (even overcharging for what they build), which of course means low-income renters will have trouble finding something affordable.
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Offline MH

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2022, 09:25:42 am »
1. I don't hear anyone talking about the Gas Plant. I certainly didn't mention it.

2. I distinctly remember Del Duca justifying Hydro increases as the price of a cup of coffee. He's out of touch.

 

1. 'Cumulative' ... so ... ?
2. Ok.

Offline MH

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2022, 09:27:52 am »

1. - People who might be willing to build new units (large real estate developers, small homeowners who want to rent out part of their house, etc.) will decide "my profits are limited building rental units, so I will find something else to do with my money". And existing units will be taken out of circulation, if building owners think "I can earn more profit if I take these cheap rental units and convert them to condos, or retail space".

2. - If an investor DOES decide to build rental units, they will focus on higher-end units, where they can get premium rents (even overcharging for what they build), which of course means low-income renters will have trouble finding something affordable.
1. This implies that profits will not be pursued even if they are there.  This same point was made by the Conservatives when ending rent control the first time.  "more profit" ?  then go for it.  There was profit in renting even when rent control existed.

2. If the 'market' doesn't work then the solution isn't more market, it's to kill the market or at least scare it.

Offline MH

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2022, 09:29:45 am »
License private companies to run social housing under contract, then.

Nationalize housing.

Talk about solutions other than "loosen the rules for the investors".

Are we scared yet ? 

If you want to collapse capitalism let it go wild and wait a bit...

Offline segnosaur

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2022, 09:35:36 am »
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Both NDP and the Liberals have both proposed implementing/strengthening rent controls.

For me, that would be a huge mistake. Pretty much every economist agrees that in the long run they are harmful. It messes up both the supply and demand. They may be popular with many people, but those who get harmed (those who can't find housing because rent controls have limited the supply) often don't see WHY they can't find housing.
Loosening controls gave us this situation...
What "situation" would that be?

Ontario's vacancy rate had been dropping quite steadily since the early 2000s (Falling from over 4% in 2004 to less than 2% in 2017). For people trying to find a place to live, that's a problem.

The vacancy rate is now over 3%, although its hard to know how much of that is due to Ford and how much is due to covid. (Heck, Ford didn't even make that big of a change... just made rent control applicable to older units (and not new builds).

Removing rent controls is always hard. There's no painless way to do it. But its like pulling off a bandage... sometime its a painful thing that has to be done.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/198812/rental-vacancy-rates-in-ontario-since-2000/#:~:text=Canadian%20housing%3A%20rental%20vacancy%20rates%20in%20Ontario%202000%2D2021&text=The%20rental%20vacancy%20rates%20of,the%20national%20average%20vacancy%20rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_control_in_Ontario#Current_law

Offline MH

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2022, 09:40:18 am »

1. What "situation" would that be?

Ontario's vacancy rate had been dropping quite steadily since the early 2000s (Falling from over 4% in 2004 to less than 2% in 2017). For people trying to find a place to live, that's a problem.

The vacancy rate is now over 3%, although its hard to know how much of that is due to Ford and how much is due to covid. (Heck, Ford didn't even make that big of a change... just made rent control applicable to older units (and not new builds).

You answered your own question.

Well, here are the vacancy rates over the last 30 years.  Hard to pin the legislative changes to any big change here.  I don't think vacancy rates are that different but rents certainly are.

https://www03.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/hmip-pimh/en/TableMapChart/TableMatchingCriteria?GeographyType=Province&GeographyId=35&CategoryLevel1=Primary%20Rental%20Market&CategoryLevel2=Summary%20Statistics&RowField=TIMESERIES


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Removing rent controls is always hard. There's no painless way to do it. But its like pulling off a bandage... sometime its a painful thing that has to be done.

Why exactly ?  So that the poor can pay the rich is the best reason I can find.

The poor are ABSOLUTELY being squeezed here.  My friends have gone from paying 20-25% of wage on rent to 50% and still have had to leave the city. 

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2022, 10:42:42 am »
OK well how long do you expect that to stick ?  The Gas Plant scandal was 2011.

Anyone associated with the Wynne and McGuinty governments should not be elected Premier.
I queef, therefore I am.

Offline Queefer Sutherland

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2022, 10:53:38 am »
I just looked on kijiji.  In Toronto it looks like apartments have gone up around -$400-500 a month over the last 5 years. Even basement apartments. That's crazy.

I suspect this is related to general housing price increases.

As far as I know rent controls only apply to annual increases for tenants in the same unit. A landlord can set whatever price they want for new tenants?
I queef, therefore I am.

Offline MH

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2022, 11:32:46 am »
Anyone associated with the Wynne and McGuinty governments should not be elected Premier.

You want to clean house of all MPPs ? 

Offline segnosaur

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Re: 2022 Ontario Election
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2022, 04:13:18 pm »
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1. - People who might be willing to build new units (large real estate developers, small homeowners who want to rent out part of their house, etc.) will decide "my profits are limited building rental units, so I will find something else to do with my money". And existing units will be taken out of circulation, if building owners think "I can earn more profit if I take these cheap rental units and convert them to condos, or retail space".

2. - If an investor DOES decide to build rental units, they will focus on higher-end units, where they can get premium rents (even overcharging for what they build), which of course means low-income renters will have trouble finding something affordable.
1. This implies that profits will not be pursued even if they are there.  This same point was made by the Conservatives when ending rent control the first time.  "more profit" ?  then go for it.  There was profit in renting even when rent control existed.
Companies do not just want to earn a profit, they want to MAXIMIZE profits. (Its a natural outcome when people have freedom... I will seek a higher wage if I have the choice of 2 similar jobs. I will pick the restaurant that has the cheaper food, if everything else is the same.) If I can make $1 building a residental rental property, or $2 building retail space (everything else being equal), why exactly would I chose the path where I make less profit?
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2. If the 'market' doesn't work
Actually the market is working... just not in a way that you seem to understand.
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then the solution isn't more market, it's to kill the market or at least scare it.
Brilliant idea... take a situation where people are being harmed (i.e. can't find housing) and scare the people away who might have been willing to do something about it.

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License private companies to run social housing under contract, then.
If you want to suggest expanding low cost subsidized housing, then fine. But that in itself becomes problematic. (Waiting lists for available units, neglect by governments when priorities change, etc.)
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Nationalize housing.
Do you mean ALL housing? Government takes over ALL housing? Brilliant... lets have the government seize all property in Canada (that won't worry investors at all!) so that they can dictate who gets to live where.

Oh, and don't forget, not ever landlord is some huge corporation run by greedy investors. Some are simply middle-class people who may decide to turn their basement into a granny-suite for some extra cash to help with the mortgage. Or perhaps people approaching retirement who want to buy a small multi-unit building for them to survive on after they stop working. Now you're going to seize both of these people's property. Brilliant!
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Talk about solutions other than "loosen the rules for the investors".
Are we scared yet ?
If you want to collapse capitalism let it go wild and wait a bit...
You do realize that even if they get rid of rent controls, you're still not going to get "runaway capitalism", right?

Rental companies will still have to follow building codes and zoning bylaws. Contract law will prevent landlords from breaking agreements with tenants. Taxes will still be paid (and if a renter is earning a large profit, they'll be paying more in taxes.)

Yes, it will suck if you are some minimum wage worker trying to make rent. But better to have them in a situation where they can still find a place (even at a higher rent than ideal) than to have no place because a potential landlord decided "I can earn more building a store than an apartment building". If you want to help those people, try addressing from the finance side... increase tax deductions for low income renters. Improve city infrastructure (e.g. public transportation) so that they have more options for places to live.