Author Topic: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?  (Read 408 times)

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Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2017, 07:58:03 pm »
Why is due process good?

Are you able to discuss ideas without first stating that something is "bad" or "good" ?  Does that make you feel better somehow, or allow you to trust me if you check in on these things ?


Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2017, 08:00:59 pm »
This position sells well in China with a bun barrel pointed in the face of anyone you ask. That does not mean it's something the Chinese people actually like.

Sure does.

There are limits to free speech, though.  Do we all have to hold our hands over our hearts to say how great it is ?  I sure don't think so.

As for this douchebag publisher, I really don't care what happens to him nor do I see any value in giving him the right to print his hate rag/threat rag.

Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2017, 08:02:25 pm »
Not just good ideas, but just as  important is the right to point out when bad things are being done by people in authority or power.

Precisely.  You have pointed out that free speech is a right because of the utility of it, to the greater good.

Of course it feels good to express yourself, but that's not why we have it as a right.

 

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2017, 08:18:28 pm »
Are you able to discuss ideas without first stating that something is "bad" or "good" ?  Does that make you feel better somehow, or allow you to trust me if you check in on these things ?

Apparently not. I bet you wish you'd never asked me to join your club now, eh?

Seriously though, you're the one who said freedom of speech only seems to be used for "bad" ideas.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2017, 08:22:01 pm »
Precisely.  You have pointed out that free speech is a right because of the utility of it, to the greater good.

Of course it feels good to express yourself, but that's not why we have it as a right.

Restricting rights to the greater good is no good. In fact, it's bad.

I just want the right to express myself, and I'm willing to cede that right to everyone else, regardless of what I think of the utility of it. 
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2017, 08:30:39 pm »
Apparently not. I bet you wish you'd never asked me to join your club now, eh?

No, I still like you.  But sometimes our discussions hit these weird potholes where you just stand on some simple point and we can't go any further.

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Seriously though, you're the one who said freedom of speech only seems to be used for "bad" ideas.

Lately, yes.  It's all about Nazi marches and such.  Maybe I am wrong, so if you have an example post away.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2017, 08:41:15 pm »
No, I still like you.  But sometimes our discussions hit these weird potholes where you just stand on some simple point and we can't go any further.

Lately, yes.  It's all about Nazi marches and such.  Maybe I am wrong, so if you have an example post away.

I don't like Nazis either, but if they want to march, who the hell am I?  I'm quite sure that's the whole point.
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2017, 08:46:33 pm »
I don't like Nazis either, but if they want to march, who the hell am I?  I'm quite sure that's the whole point.

So, I guess the answer is that is... nope... really only Nazis demanding free speech these days.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2017, 08:53:58 pm »
So, I guess the answer is that is... nope... really only Nazis demanding free speech these days.

Is that women who held up the sign outside the abortion clinic still in jail?
Time for bed said Zebedee...

Offline chilipeppers

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2017, 09:25:37 pm »
Linda Gibbons, don't think she is right now but she's served something like 10/11  years for protesting quietly inside the bubble.  I doubt she'll quit, she simply believes it is wrong so carries on.   

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/judge-convicts-linda-gibbons-of-breaking-17-year-old-abortion-bubble-zone-c

http://www.lawnow.org/the-story-of-linda-gibbons/

Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2017, 09:32:04 pm »
Is that women who held up the sign outside the abortion clinic still in jail?

I don't know that case - post it, it's interesting.

Offline MH

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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2017, 12:36:12 am »
So, I guess the answer is that is... nope... really only Nazis demanding free speech these days.

Absolute nonsense.  Conservative speakers have been banned or stopped via the heckler's veto from speaking at universities/colleges across the continent because they say things that offend liberal-minded students and faculty.
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2017, 12:53:11 am »
Precisely.  You have pointed out that free speech is a right because of the utility of it, to the greater good.

Of course it feels good to express yourself, but that's not why we have it as a right.

Speech, expression, free thought is a natural right we all are born with.   People, in the state of nature, have the freedom to do anything they please.  But in a society with a government authority, government can limit rights & actions of people through laws.  If you refuse to follow these laws, like a hate speech law, the government will come to your home and use violence on you & lock you up. 

Let's all think about that for a second.  If we refuse to follow any law, armoured men will arrive at our homes, break open the door, and drag us away and violently assault or shoot us if we don't comply.  All laws are decrees ordered to be complied through threat of violence by the state.  So that said, it shouldn't be up to citizens to justify why we should have a particular right, it ultimately should be up to legislators (maker of laws) to justify why our rights should be curtailed by force/threat of violence.

So, why should we have free speech?  Because we're born free in this world to do whatever the heck we want, unless our rights conflict with the rights of others.  Why should free speech be sometimes curtailed?  Because some speech (ie: threats of violence) can clash with the rights of others, ie: to be free from threats of violence.

And yes you could argue this is a libertarian argument, but it's more accurately an argument for liberalism in general.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 12:57:25 am by CuckFace »
I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.
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Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2017, 07:00:20 am »

Absolute nonsense.  Conservative speakers have been banned or stopped via the heckler's veto from speaking at universities/colleges across the continent because they say things that offend liberal-minded students and faculty.

Fair enough.  But I also didn't include Colin Kaepernick as an example (or something like the Dixie Chicks case) because it's a branch of freedom of speech.

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Speech, expression, free thought is a natural right we all are born with.   People, in the state of nature, have the freedom to do anything they please.  But in a society with a government authority, government can limit rights & actions of people through laws.  If you refuse to follow these laws, like a hate speech law, the government will come to your home and use violence on you & lock you up. 

True.  In nature, people can say what they like, or steal or murder to their own delight.

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Let's all think about that for a second.  If we refuse to follow any law, armoured men will arrive at our homes, break open the door, and drag us away and violently assault or shoot us if we don't comply.  All laws are decrees ordered to be complied through threat of violence by the state.  So that said, it shouldn't be up to citizens to justify why we should have a particular right, it ultimately should be up to legislators (maker of laws) to justify why our rights should be curtailed by force/threat of violence.

I would characterize the justification of why we should have a right, or conversely a law, as a public discussion.  I think citizens may demand rights or laws, and legislators may respond or vice-versa but ok.

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So, why should we have free speech?  Because we're born free in this world to do whatever the heck we want, unless our rights conflict with the rights of others.  Why should free speech be sometimes curtailed?  Because some speech (ie: threats of violence) can clash with the rights of others, ie: to be free from threats of violence.

Yes, this is a good reason as to why we should have free speech but not why we do.  The reason why we do is because it works.  More below.

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And yes you could argue this is a libertarian argument, but it's more accurately an argument for liberalism in general.

Yes.  The only thing we're leaving out is the utility of this right.  Tribal societies believe themselves to be special, and we are no different.  As such, the rights and mechanics we have evolved in our open, democratic, and economically 'advanced' societies are seen and taught as a point of pride.  Of course we should be proud of these things, but we need to understand why they work so we can continue to improve them.

Democracy is another example of something that people vapidly parrot as a good thing, with no idea of why it's necessary, how it evolved, and what needs to happen to it to move it forward.  I don't expect the 80% of the masses to have any idea or participate in such a discussion but even then I fear that few of us understand what is happening.

Even Justin Trudeau has publicly stated that he admires China's system, as I am told anyway.   We are admiring authoritarian states because they are better at mobilizing against large common problems quickly (they are), and they have been better to their middle classes (they are).  But we can repeat to ourselves that we are 'free' I suppose.

It's vanity.