Author Topic: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?  (Read 408 times)

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Offline kimmy

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2017, 01:10:44 pm »
So, I don't know if anyone spent much time perusing their back-issues,

I only glanced through the current month, and didn't notice anything that I thought was outright incitement of violence.

but they do suggest physical attacks on those they dislike (Jews/gays/Muslims/blacks/uppity women).  It is kind of cartoonish, which i suppose gives them the out of "But it was just a joke, surely you could see that".
That sounds pretty cut and dried, then.

So does this differ from Imam's preaching against Jews/gays in Mosques?

Well, the religious types have a couple of outs. There's "that's out of context" or "this wasn't to be taken literally" or "this is our scripture, it's protected speech." They're favorites with Christian hate-preachers, so I'm sure they would work for Muslims as well.

I don't think "Your Ward" has those defenses.

 -k
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Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2017, 01:14:01 pm »
So, I don't know if anyone spent much time perusing their back-issues, but they do suggest physical attacks on those they dislike (Jews/gays/Muslims/blacks/uppity women).  It is kind of cartoonish, which i suppose gives them the out of "But it was just a joke, surely you could see that".

So does this differ from Imam's preaching against Jews/gays in Mosques?

I haven't read them, but any incitement to violence against anyone, by anyone, is wrong. I don't care which side is which.  Such is certainly not covered by the freedom of speech umbrella. In my opinion, anyway.
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Offline Gorgeous Graham

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2017, 01:17:48 pm »
For me,  hate speech should be limited to speech against a group that already breaks existing laws, ie: to threaten other groups with violence.  Speech that is disliking/hating a certain group is usually something that I don't agree with at all, but I don't think the government should censor people's voices or ideas, because that gets into very dangerous territory, unless as I said it breaks other existing laws like physical threats/harassment etc.
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Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2017, 03:25:16 pm »
Not to the people they offended.

Well...

"Free speech is a good idea.  Beyond that, who cares?"

I guess I do.  That's why I said there aren't any good ideas right now being freely expressed.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2017, 03:35:59 pm »
Well...

"Free speech is a good idea.  Beyond that, who cares?"

I guess I do.  That's why I said there aren't any good ideas right now being freely expressed.

The right to free speech has nothing to do with how good the expression is. Elon Musk recently enjoyed his freedom to express by announcing a new truck. Some might think that was a good idea.

I think that you think that freedom of speech is only an issue when you don't like that which is being expressed.
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Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2017, 04:29:06 pm »
The right to free speech has nothing to do with how good the expression is.

That's incorrect.  Free speech is seen as a right because good ideas need to be heard.

 
Quote
I think that you think that freedom of speech is only an issue when you don't like that which is being expressed.

There are lots of things I don't like to hear but I don't question free speech because of those.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2017, 04:47:37 pm »
That's incorrect.  Free speech is seen as a right because good ideas need to be heard.

 
There are lots of things I don't like to hear but I don't question free speech because of those.

Bad ideas too. The merits of an idea are subjective. But free speech is a right simply because for it not to be would be wrong. That's all.
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Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2017, 05:01:21 pm »
Bad ideas too. The merits of an idea are subjective. But free speech is a right simply because for it not to be would be wrong. That's all.

Your description is circular.  "X is a right because it would be wrong otherwise."  It doesn't say anything.

There must be a reason we have rights other than it's a 'good thing'. 

Offline kimmy

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2017, 05:36:16 pm »
Your description is circular.  "X is a right because it would be wrong otherwise."  It doesn't say anything.

There must be a reason we have rights other than it's a 'good thing'.

The right to free speech is central to our system of law and government.   The notion that the King or the Church or the War or anything else must be exempt from criticism is a cornerstone of dictatorship and has been the cause of revolutions.  The right of the people to decide the best course of action is meaningless if without the right to freely express opinions. These ideas originated a time when people could be jailed for questioning the ruler or the church. Consider what happened to that Galileo chap for presenting a scientific theory that the Catholic church didn't care for, for example.

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Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2017, 05:48:26 pm »
The right to free speech is central to our system of law and government.   The notion that the King or the Church or the War or anything else must be exempt from criticism is a cornerstone of dictatorship and has been the cause of revolutions.  The right of the people to decide the best course of action is meaningless if without the right to freely express opinions. These ideas originated a time when people could be jailed for questioning the ruler or the church. Consider what happened to that Galileo chap for presenting a scientific theory that the Catholic church didn't care for, for example.

 -k

Why are you telling me this ?

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2017, 06:43:22 pm »
Your description is circular.  "X is a right because it would be wrong otherwise."  It doesn't say anything.

There must be a reason we have rights other than it's a 'good thing'.

Why?  Eventually, all over the world, everyone will have all the rights they deserve, and that will be a very good thing.

Some rights mean more to some people than other.  I, for instance, thing freedom of religion is somewhat overdone.  Others think it's a good thing.  They think it would be wrong for them to be denied that right. There's no other reason.
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Offline MH

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2017, 07:06:55 pm »
Why?  Eventually, all over the world, everyone will have all the rights they deserve, and that will be a very good thing.


So basically it's like candy.  People on this thread don't seem to be able to say other than "free speech is good".  Oh well.

Offline bcsapper

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2017, 07:08:25 pm »
So basically it's like candy.  People on this thread don't seem to be able to say other than "free speech is good".  Oh well.

Why is due process good?
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2017, 07:43:58 pm »
If everybody who differed with authority was wrong then maybe we wouldn't or shouldn't have free speech.  This idea sells well in China so it's not unheard of.

This position sells well in China with a bun barrel pointed in the face of anyone you ask. That does not mean it's something the Chinese people actually like.
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Offline SirJohn

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Re: "Your Ward" News - Hate Speech or Free Expression?
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2017, 07:49:18 pm »
That's incorrect.  Free speech is seen as a right because good ideas need to be heard.

Not just good ideas, but just as  important is the right to point out when bad things are being done by people in authority or power.

The Ontario Liberals proudly tell everyone who will listen that they've balanced the budget.

I have the right to call them a bunch of fucking liars and point out they're borrowing over 20 billion this year, and will borrow over 30 billion next year. Without freedom of speech I might be locked up for saying that. God knows this is a party with zero respect for anything but raw power. I'm pretty sure if they could put their political enemies and those who criticize them in labour camps they'd do it in a second.

"When liberals insist that only fascists will defend borders then voters will hire fascists to do the job liberals won't do." David Frum