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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Nipples Von Graham on November 29, 2021, 07:42:24 pm »
Here's an example I have used in the past and maybe the two of you could reference it for your discussion:

Additional spaces that are created for diversity.  ie. NOT taking away chances for people who don't qualify but adding new ones specifically to promote, for example, POC on the police force.

The thing with the police is that being a POC can be an actual useful qualification for a job because the person's skin colour/culture can relate to the community they serve if it's a minority population.  I have no problem with that because it makes logical sense and actually has to do with the job itself instead of a vague concept like "fighting historical oppression".

Unlike Black Dog i'm actually reasonable and willing to compromise and can give an inch when it makes sense.  Black Dog is fighting the culture war with 100% effort 100% of the time without relenting on any point.  So then it seems it's just about "winning" then doing what's right.
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Nipples Von Graham on November 29, 2021, 07:37:37 pm »
Again: you're claiming these hiring practices are discriminatory; a claim you have asserted repeatedly without evidence.

They're discriminatory by their very nature.  If you make people from certain groups ineligible for a position based on race and gender that is discrimination by definition.  Trudeau made cabinet 50% women, he discriminated against the men in cabinet, that's not up for any debate.  What is up for debate is whether the discrimination is justified, and if you want to justify it then bring the numbers and evidence.

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I think the argument is a diverse and more representative workforce is a good thing for organizations and society as a whole, so hiring practices that recruit qualified employees from those groups aren't necessarily about ameliorating racism or ensuring a precise alignment with demographics.

That's part of the argument, certainly not the whole argument.  I don't see how there would be much value in it unless the work specifically would benefit from it.  Like maybe you have diverse set of clients and having someone who can speak their native tongue is an asset, so you add that as part of the qualifications.  Or maybe you feel you need to consult with female points of view to reach female customers, so add it to the qualifications.  No problem.

I've worked with POC, their skin never added any value but sometimes they'd be able to translate something in another language that was useful.  But maybe other industries want the input of POC, which is valid.  So add it to the qualifications during hiring, and be specific.
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Nipples Von Graham on November 29, 2021, 07:28:47 pm »
Well you have to prove anyone is being denied employment. In other words, you need to apply the same standards to your argument as you demand from the other side.

The burden isn't on me.  Nobody has the right to racially/sexually discriminate against people based on guesses and feelings and progressive PR.
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by MH on November 29, 2021, 05:39:45 pm »
Here's an example I have used in the past and maybe the two of you could reference it for your discussion:

Additional spaces that are created for diversity.  ie. NOT taking away chances for people who don't qualify but adding new ones specifically to promote, for example, POC on the police force.
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Black Dog on November 29, 2021, 03:59:43 pm »
If you're going to discriminate against people in hiring practices and school admissions etc to right wrongs, the burden isn't on me to prove there isn't any wrongs occurring, the burden is on the people discriminating to prove there's wrongs occurring.

Again: you're claiming these hiring practices are discriminatory; a claim you have asserted repeatedly without evidence.

Then what is the specific people are trying to correct?

I think the argument is a diverse and more representative workforce is a good thing for organizations and society as a whole, so hiring practices that recruit qualified employees from those groups aren't necessarily about ameliorating racism or ensuring a precise alignment with demographics.
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Black Dog on November 29, 2021, 03:58:17 pm »
Are you serious????

How would denying employement to white people and men based on their gender and race NOT harm them?

Well you have to prove anyone is being denied employment. In other words, you need to apply the same standards to your argument as you demand from the other side.
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Nipples Von Graham on November 29, 2021, 03:50:33 pm »
How come the pro-diversity people have to provide rigorous statistical analysis, but you can't back up your claims that affirmative action-type policies actually harm any white people?

Are you serious????

How would denying employement to white people and men based on their gender and race NOT harm them?

If you want to discriminate THE BURDEN IS ON YOU.  Why?  Because discrimination IS ILLEGAL and against basic human rights, yo.  So you better have good reason and back it up with evidence.
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Nipples Von Graham on November 29, 2021, 03:47:16 pm »
Prove it.

If you're going to discriminate against people in hiring practices and school admissions etc to right wrongs, the burden isn't on me to prove there isn't any wrongs occurring, the burden is on the people discriminating to prove there's wrongs occurring.  I'm not going to do their work for them.  Wild guesses because "feelings" and because "evil white patriarchy" is not acceptable, and are not good research in any way whatsoever.

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Also you continue to not understand that the problem that people are attempting to correct is not "X people aren't be hired cuz racism".

Then what is the specific people are trying to correct?
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Black Dog on November 29, 2021, 02:38:24 pm »
No the problem is some well-intentioned people who are either lazy or don't know how to perform proper social science research are saying things are problems when sometimes they aren't and then to fix these problems that don't actually exist they're discriminating against people when it's not justified.

Prove it.

Also you continue to not understand that the problem that people are attempting to correct is not "X people aren't be hired cuz racism".
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General Discussion / Re: Woke Culture
« Last post by Nipples Von Graham on November 29, 2021, 02:33:59 pm »
The problem is you continue to assume that the answer is "tell people to not discriminate" which is pretty simplistic and doesn't really address the root of the problem, which, again, is not individual managers consciously making discriminatory hiring choices.

No the problem is some well-intentioned people who are either lazy or don't know how to perform proper social science research are saying things are problems when sometimes they aren't and then to fix these problems that don't actually exist they're discriminating against people when it's not justified.

Let's say research can more or less confirm that about 20% of black applicants who were the most qualified applicants were denied employment at a company, and so the company hired 20% more highly qualified black people.  Ok great I'd have no problem with that because it actually makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is saying "20% of the general population is a POC but only 10% of our employees are POC so racism must be occurring in our hiring practices.  It's just a total guess and bad social science because there could be other variables at play that haven't even been considered.  Like what if it's a Birkenstock company and black people just don't wear or have any interest in Birkenstocks lol so they just don't apply to the company?
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