Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Shady on April 28, 2020, 08:02:37 pm

Title: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on April 28, 2020, 08:02:37 pm
I thought Iíd start a topic on the science associated with the coronavirus, since feelings and emotions seem to be governing peopleís responses in other threads.  Public policy needs to implemented using the evolving science related to the virus, and not what feels good or feels right.  I understand the initial response, due to the fact that very little information was known of the Wuhan coronavirus.  But since itís outbreak some 6 to 8 weeks ago, much information has been gathered, and much has been learned.  The main lessons are:

1.  The virus is much more widespread than originally thought.
2.  The virus is much less deadly than originally thought.
3.  The virus is deadly to a select group of people, particularly older, and people with underlying health conditions.

For example.

Death Rate:

Under 18 years old:  zero and (0 per 100,000 in the population)

18 to 45 years old:  0.01 percent (11 per 100,000 in the population)

75 and over:  0.80 percent (death rate is 80 times that of 18 to 45 years old)

Of all fatal cases in New York State:

Over 70 years of age: 2/3 of all deaths

Over 50 years of age: 95 percent

Underlying illness: 90 percent

Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date:

6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness.


And

Hospitalizations:

In New York City as of Friday, April 24: 34,600

Under 18 years old:  0.01 percent

18-44 years old:  0.10 percent

65 to 74 years old:  1.7 percent

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation

Furthermore, antibody tests indicate that a much larger percentage of the population either have, or had the virus, many with little to no symptoms.

1 in 5 people tested in New York City had antibodies for the coronavirus

If those early results translate to the rest of the New York population, that would mean about 2.7 million people across the state would have been infected.
https://www.livescience.com/covid-antibody-test-results-new-york-test.html

Santa Clara in California had similar results.

Way more people may have gotten coronavirus than we thought, small antibody study suggests
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-antibodies-widespread-in-santa-clara.html

Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on April 28, 2020, 09:59:25 pm
You wouldnít know science if it hit you in the face.   What a maroon. 

You say 1, 2 and 3 as if theyíre facts, with no context...  youíre hilarious.
Which studies are you referring to?  If you have any new science, youíre welcome to add it to the conversation.  Here, Iíll go first.  This is from today.

Coronavirus: 95% of victims in England hospitals had underlying health conditions
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on April 28, 2020, 10:01:50 pm
Which studies are you referring to?  If you have any new science, youíre welcome to add it to the conversation.  Here, Iíll go first.  This is from today.

Coronavirus: 95% of victims in England hospitals had underlying health conditions
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733

According to Dr Bharat Pankhania, an expert on communicable disease control at the University of Exeter Medical School, it is not surprising that some young, healthy people die after contracting the virus, noting the risk of infection and even death is not zero for any demographic.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/why-young-healthy-people-dying-coronavirus/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on April 28, 2020, 10:07:34 pm
According to Dr Bharat Pankhania, an expert on communicable disease control at the University of Exeter Medical School, it is not surprising that some young, healthy people die after contracting the virus, noting the risk of infection and even death is not zero for any demographic.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/why-young-healthy-people-dying-coronavirus/
I completely agree that itís possible that younger people could die from covid, but itís just extremely rare.  Several thousand people under 35 die every year of the seasonal flu.  So of course covid wouldnít be any different.  Btw, statistically zero and actual zero are two different things.  But currently, a person under 25 has a better chance of being killed in a car accident than dying from covid 19.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on April 28, 2020, 10:08:04 pm
Quote
Way more people may have gotten coronavirus than we thought, small antibody study suggests
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-antibodies-widespread-in-santa-clara.html

Ya, between 2.5% and 4.2% of the population. Based on a study of a whole 3000 people. Herd immunity is here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on April 28, 2020, 10:29:39 pm
Pence shows up at at the Mayo Clinic not wearing a mask. everybody else was. What The Fuck was he thinking.
oh I forgot, he works for Trump.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on April 28, 2020, 10:36:13 pm
I completely agree that itís possible that younger people could die from covid, but itís just extremely rare.  Several thousand people under 35 die every year of the seasonal flu.  So of course covid wouldnít be any different.  Btw, statistically zero and actual zero are two different things.  But currently, a person under 25 has a better chance of being killed in a car accident than dying from covid 19.

What a feeble fucking attempt to deflect. Here's a little bit of info for you Shady, you don't have to lose control of your car to kill somebody with Covid. You just have to sneeze. Something tells me you're not a very good driver either.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on April 28, 2020, 11:07:03 pm
I completely agree that itís possible that younger people could die from covid, but itís just extremely rare.  Several thousand people under 35 die every year of the seasonal flu.  So of course covid wouldnít be any different.  Btw, statistically zero and actual zero are two different things.  But currently, a person under 25 has a better chance of being killed in a car accident than dying from covid 19.

Hey shady can you explain how your buddy said " we have 15 known cases and we'll soon get it down to zero" missed the mark by a little bit, somewhere around over a million or so?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on April 29, 2020, 12:06:45 am
I thought Iíd start a topic on the science associated with the coronavirus, since feelings and emotions seem to be governing peopleís responses in other threads.  Public policy needs to implemented using the evolving science related to the virus, and not what feels good or feels right.

what science? All you've done is drop 'go-fetch' links; 2 of which rely upon the same most questionable, highly criticized study. But again, what science are you presuming to leverage, to extend upon?

as your intent with this thread is to join the throngs of 'endTheShutdowners' hyping the same 2 antibody related studies, we already have a "Back To Work" thread... you're not adding anything new here member Shady!

try again - try harder!


Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on April 29, 2020, 12:34:22 am
... of the Wuhan coronavirus.

given you were corrected previously... and you acknowledged said correction, this repeat is nothing more than a ShadyTroll! Be better member Shady; be better - recognize the official names as: virus => SARS-CoV-2 // disease => COVID-19


Referring to it as the Wuhan virus isnít incorrect.

factualWaldo protip: 2015 - WHO established best practices for naming of new human infectious diseases

Quote
WHO, in consultation and collaboration with the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), has identified best practices for the naming of new human diseases, with the aim to minimize unnecessary negative impact of disease names on trade, travel, tourism or animal welfare, and avoid causing offence to any cultural, social, national, regional, professional or ethnic groups.

per the official WHO announcement - naming the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and the virus that causes it

Quote
Official names for the virus responsible for COVID-19 (previously known as ď2019 novel coronavirusĒ) and the disease it causes.

Disease: coronavirus disease (COVID-19)

Virus: severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on April 29, 2020, 05:59:35 am
What a feeble **** attempt to deflect. Here's a little bit of info for you Shady, you don't have to lose control of your car to kill somebody with Covid. You just have to sneeze. Something tells me you're not a very good driver either.

I"m going to defend Shady's argument (or try  :D) just because he made a good attempt here and the devil needs an advocate...

You are right that you don't have to lose control of your car to kill somebody but to stretch the analogy... cars are actually quite deadly and we don't ban them.  There is such a thing as an acceptable amount of losses, which is why restrictions will be lifted before deaths go to zero.  Right ?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on April 29, 2020, 06:02:47 am
I will say this, Shady: we should not quote anyone but epidemiologists at this point.

Surgeons, neurologists, or "Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford Universityís Hoover Institution. He was chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center from 1998 until 2012." do not have expertise in this highly specialized field.

Also - I would never share all discussions with a general audience.  The 'public' for this kind of information can be assumed to have only basic understanding.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 29, 2020, 07:50:15 am
And judging from the OP, a less than basic understanding. I don't know why Italy with its overrun healthcare system and economic collapse is more desirable than just economic collapse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on April 29, 2020, 10:50:56 am
I"m going to defend Shady's argument (or try  :D) just because he made a good attempt here and the devil needs an advocate...

You are right that you don't have to lose control of your car to kill somebody but to stretch the analogy... cars are actually quite deadly and we don't ban them.  There is such a thing as an acceptable amount of losses, which is why restrictions will be lifted before deaths go to zero.  Right ?

We put seat belts in our cars when we figured out that made them less deadly, and we made it law you have to use them. For now we should follow the restrictions such as physical distancing and wearing masks until we figure out how to make Corona less deadly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2020, 11:11:00 am
I"m going to defend Shady's argument (or try  :D) just because he made a good attempt here and the devil needs an advocate...

You are right that you don't have to lose control of your car to kill somebody but to stretch the analogy... cars are actually quite deadly and we don't ban them.  There is such a thing as an acceptable amount of losses, which is why restrictions will be lifted before deaths go to zero.  Right ?

Cars have a purpose, we need them. We have no need of Coronavirus, all it is good for is killing people.

We do have to figure out how to manage it until an effective vaccine is available. That will be trial and error, hopefully more trial than error. Germany has had  a spike in infections since they lifted some restrictions and are looking at having to reimpose them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on April 29, 2020, 11:27:02 am
I will say this, Shady: we should not quote anyone but epidemiologists at this point.... have expertise in this highly specialized field.

so you're saying member Shady's radiologist opinion writer isn't special... enough?  ;D Of course, it's a well-worn and shady pattern honed during member Shady's battles in the climateWars! If this thread has legs I expect British tabloids to follow in 5, 4, 3,...

(https://i.imgur.com/7PQ6jzN.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on April 29, 2020, 03:09:01 pm
1. Cars have a purpose, we need them. We have no need of Coronavirus, all it is good for is killing people.

2. We do have to figure out how to manage it until an effective vaccine is available. That will be trial and error, hopefully more trial than error. Germany has had  a spike in infections since they lifted some restrictions and are looking at having to reimpose them.
1. We need an economy, is the point
2. Noted
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2020, 04:31:05 pm
1. We need an economy, is the point
2. Noted

No one is against an economy but there is no chance of the same economy until we get handle this thing. You can't send people to work in places where most of them are going to get sick and some of them die. Trump wants to keep the meat plants open but how is he going to do it, by forcing people who are scared shitless to go to work?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on April 29, 2020, 04:40:05 pm
No one is against an economy but there is no chance of the same economy until we get handle this thing. You can't send people to work in places where most of them are going to get sick and some of them die. Trump wants to keep the meat plants open but how is he going to do it, by forcing people who are scared shitless to go to work?

Right.  I think the point, restated without analogy this time, is that no matter when we go back it will be a risk.  No matter when.

So when Shady says that young people have less of a chance of getting killed by a car than Covid, that is valid.  If everybody has less of a chance, then we will probably at the point of returning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2020, 04:50:19 pm
Right.  I think the point, restated without analogy this time, is that no matter when we go back it will be a risk.  No matter when.

So when Shady says that young people have less of a chance of getting killed by a car than Covid, that is valid.  If everybody has less of a chance, then we will probably at the point of returning.

Young people have always had more chance of getting killed in a car than older people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on April 29, 2020, 05:26:02 pm
Well, it's arguable.

But what about my post are you refuting?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2020, 05:38:09 pm
Well, it's arguable.

But what about my post are you refuting?


Young people do have more chance of being in a fatal crash along with people over 80.

It isn't a valid comparison. If you have a car crash, it doesn't cause any number of other car crashes in other parts of the world two weeks later. It doesn't turn into a pandemic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on April 29, 2020, 06:11:45 pm
Ok, so that's the problem with my analogy.  Do you disagree with the larger point I made or not?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2020, 06:26:49 pm
Ok, so that's the problem with my analogy.  Do you disagree with the larger point I made or not?

Without an effective vaccine but we have control over how much risk we are prepared to take. Until a point where this thing runs away and then we have control over nothing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 29, 2020, 06:47:03 pm
given you were corrected previously... and you acknowledged said correction, this repeat is nothing more than a ShadyTroll! Be better member Shady; be better - recognize the official names as: virus => SARS-CoV-2 // disease => COVID-19

We call varicella "chickenpox".  I think it's ok to call it colloquially the Chinese Communist Party virus.  Unless of course you want to defend the Chinese Communist Party and their virus-making policies.  Do you member waldo, do you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on April 29, 2020, 07:08:02 pm
Without an effective vaccine but we have control over how much risk we are prepared to take. Until a point where this thing runs away and then we have control over nothing.
I honestly don't understand your answer
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on April 30, 2020, 12:31:23 pm
given you were corrected previously... and you acknowledged said correction, this repeat is nothing more than a ShadyTroll! Be better member Shady; be better - recognize the official names as: virus => SARS-CoV-2 // disease => COVID-19

We call varicella "chickenpox".  I think it's ok to call it colloquially the Chinese Communist Party virus.  Unless of course you want to defend the Chinese Communist Party and their virus-making policies.  Do you member waldo, do you?

being called out by ConspiracyG - how humbling! Why is your suggested "colloquial" naming used by such a narrow focused segment of people; like you, member Shady, your fellow Trumpists and ilk?


bloody hell member Shady, where's your science in your declared sciency thread?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on April 30, 2020, 02:59:29 pm
I honestly don't understand your answer

It means we have control over how much or how fast we open the economy up but if we get it wrong, it can get out of control in a hurry and then we are along for the ride.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on April 30, 2020, 04:34:20 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/4Qx6ZDh.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 05, 2020, 02:41:41 pm
This is especially true in this forum.  High risk people should be protected and isolated.  The rest of us should be continuing our lives, practicing mitigation and social distancing.  The sooner that the general population achieves herd immunity, the sooner high risk people will cease to be high risk.  Prolonging here immunity only prolongs the period of time high risk people must live in isolation and quarantine.  Our policy isnít based on science, itís based on panic and hysteria.

Delaying herd immunity is costing lives
Climate scientists are frustrated by people who do not believe in climate change. In epidemiology, our frustration is with anti-vaxxers. Most anti-vaxxers are highly educated but still argue against vaccination. We now face a similar situation with Ďanti-herdersí, who view herd immunity as a misguided optional strategy rather than a scientifically proven phenomenon that can prevent unnecessary deaths.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/04/29/delaying-herd-immunity-is-costing-lives/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 05, 2020, 02:52:15 pm
More evidence that coronavirus is much less lethal than first thought.

96% of nearly 3,300 inmates with coronavirus were asymptomatic, survey shows
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-prisons-asymptomatic-8daaaa08-b53e-4368-adb7-88b7d93efece.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 05, 2020, 02:55:16 pm
More science coming in everyday.  Remember that these scientific facts, donít care about what you feel or think.

There is no empirical evidence for these lockdowns
Comparing US states shows there is no relationship between lockdowns and lower Covid-19 deaths.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/04/22/there-is-no-empirical-evidence-for-these-lockdowns/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on May 05, 2020, 02:56:22 pm
Herd immunity is a very catchy phrase, except we don't know the long term and extended effects of infection. There is more evidence all the time that it can do lasting damage to multiple organs and cause strokes in relatively younger people. You might end up immune to the virus itself yet have had permanent damage to other organs and die of something other than respiratory failure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 05, 2020, 03:06:33 pm
Herd immunity is a very catchy phrase, except we don't know the long term and extended effects of infection. There is more evidence all the time that it can do lasting damage to multiple organs and cause strokes in relatively younger people. You might end up immune to the virus itself yet have had permanent damage to other organs and die of something other than respiratory failure.
I agree with you that still not much is known about the virus, especially long term.  However. There are degrees of permanent damage.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 05, 2020, 03:59:02 pm
New study, which shouldíve been obvious from the start. Hopefully this will be policy going forward, instead of the disastrous one size fits all approach that panic and fear led to in the first place.

Targeted Lockdowns Are Better
A new study finds they save more lives and do less economic damage

https://www.wsj.com/articles/targeted-lockdowns-are-better-11588630768
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 05, 2020, 04:59:50 pm
High risk people should be protected and isolated.

and in the absence of appropriate related counter-measures in place to do exactly that... you falsely posture as a proponent of science while blathering on about "anti-herders"! Of course you do.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 05, 2020, 05:19:33 pm
More evidence that coronavirus is much less lethal than first thought.

96% of nearly 3,300 inmates with coronavirus were asymptomatic, survey shows
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-prisons-asymptomatic-8daaaa08-b53e-4368-adb7-88b7d93efece.html

hey Mr. Science! You haven't a clue. Over as long as a 2-week period a diagnosed asymptomatic carrier can be developing pre-symptomatically... about 75% of people who test positive without showing symptoms turn out to be pre-symptomatic, displaying coughing, fatigue, fever and other signs of COVID-19 in a later follow-up exam.

try again, try harder!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on May 05, 2020, 07:02:16 pm
More evidence that coronavirus is much less lethal than first thought.

96% of nearly 3,300 inmates with coronavirus were asymptomatic, survey shows
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-prisons-asymptomatic-8daaaa08-b53e-4368-adb7-88b7d93efece.html
This is hilarious. You don't even understand how much you don't understand.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 06, 2020, 07:34:38 pm
hey Mr. Science! You haven't a clue. Over as long as a 2-week period a diagnosed asymptomatic carrier can be developing pre-symptomatically... about 75% of people who test positive without showing symptoms turn out to be pre-symptomatic, displaying coughing, fatigue, fever and other signs of COVID-19 in a later follow-up exam.

try again, try harder!
You donít seem to understand.  This data suggests a significant under counting of the infected population.  Which means the actual fatality rate is much lower than originally thought.  Thatís actually a good thing.  I know youíre a big China supporter, but you donít have to be a covid supporter too.  Sheesh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 06, 2020, 07:37:51 pm
Almost 80% of new hospitalizations in New York are from people being infected AT HOME.  Not at work.  AT HOME.  More data indicating this panic driven shutdown was unscientific and counter productive.  Cuomo of course is shocked!
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/gov-cuomo-reacts-to-shocking-new-stats-revealing-66-of-hospitalized-coronavirus-patients-had-been-social-distancing/

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 06, 2020, 09:09:23 pm
More evidence that coronavirus is much less lethal than first thought.

96% of nearly 3,300 inmates with coronavirus were asymptomatic, survey shows
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-prisons-asymptomatic-8daaaa08-b53e-4368-adb7-88b7d93efece.html

hey Mr. Science! You haven't a clue. Over as long as a 2-week period a diagnosed asymptomatic carrier can be developing pre-symptomatically... about 75% of people who test positive without showing symptoms turn out to be pre-symptomatic, displaying coughing, fatigue, fever and other signs of COVID-19 in a later follow-up exam.

try again, try harder!
You donít seem to understand.  This data suggests a significant under counting of the infected population.  Which means the actual fatality rate is much lower than originally thought.  Thatís actually a good thing.  I know youíre a big China supporter, but you donít have to be a covid supporter too.  Sheesh.

Mr. Science! Do you feel comfortable using a U.S. 'for-profit-system' prison population sampling to represent conditions within the general populace?  ;D

- in those confined, often over-crowded spaces... how's that social-distancing thingee working out?
- what's the typical sanitary condition in those, quite literally, perfect petri-dish environments for the spread of COVID-19?
- how's the availability of proper hand-washing capabilities... wait, what... you're saying sanitizers are contraband given the presence of alcohol in them?
- oh my Mr. Science... aren't there a lot of high-risk and elderly persons within those prison populations?

Mr. Science, as the grand supporter of science that you are... would you like a do-over?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 06, 2020, 09:29:44 pm
More data indicating this panic driven shutdown was unscientific and counter productive. 

Mr. Science - you've made a summary statement based on data that, apparently, lacks causal attachment(s). Are you able to present the/your science that substantiates your claim? This is, after all, your ScienceyThread... isn't it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: kimmy on May 07, 2020, 10:31:02 pm
A few sciency thoughts:

 -the virus is mutating.  There won't be a single coronavirus... it'll be like "the flu" where each year they come up with a cocktail of vaccines based on what they think people will most need protection from.
 
 -natural selection will make sure that the most vicious strains of the virus are removed from the pool.  The carriers will become sick and be quickly identified and prevented from transmitting.

 -conversely the strains of the virus that generate the least symptoms and the least harm to the carriers will be the ones that stay with us. It will be propagated everywhere by people who don't even know they're sick. It'll be with us forever.

 -ironically what makes coronavirus so dangerous is that it's not very dangerous.  Something like Ebola makes the host so sick that they have little opportunity to transmit it. Rhinovirus, on the other hand, is so harmless that its carriers transmit it everywhere. Coronavirus is somewhere in between. It's harmless enough to most hosts that it can be transmitted widely, and yet it is dangerous enough to some hosts that it can kill.

 -eventually, there'll be an equilibrium.  We will see what that looks like when we get there. Probably it means that some of the people who'd die from the flu will die from coronavirus instead.  Maybe the average life expectancy is a tiny bit shorter. Maybe it isn't.  Aside from (hopefully) a vaccine, there will also be better treatments. We will adapt.

This won't keep us down for long.


 -k
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 07, 2020, 10:48:09 pm
A few sciency thoughts:

 -the virus is mutating.  There won't be a single coronavirus... it'll be like "the flu" where each year they come up with a cocktail of vaccines based on what they think people will most need protection from.
 
 -natural selection will make sure that the most vicious strains of the virus are removed from the pool.  The carriers will become sick and be quickly identified and prevented from transmitting.

 -conversely the strains of the virus that generate the least symptoms and the least harm to the carriers will be the ones that stay with us. It will be propagated everywhere by people who don't even know they're sick. It'll be with us forever.

 -ironically what makes coronavirus so dangerous is that it's not very dangerous.  Something like Ebola makes the host so sick that they have little opportunity to transmit it. Rhinovirus, on the other hand, is so harmless that its carriers transmit it everywhere. Coronavirus is somewhere in between. It's harmless enough to most hosts that it can be transmitted widely, and yet it is dangerous enough to some hosts that it can kill.

 -eventually, there'll be an equilibrium.  We will see what that looks like when we get there. Probably it means that some of the people who'd die from the flu will die from coronavirus instead.  Maybe the average life expectancy is a tiny bit shorter. Maybe it isn't.  Aside from (hopefully) a vaccine, there will also be better treatments. We will adapt.

This won't keep us down for long.


 -k

Wrong on a number of counts but the most important is that you can be a carrier and be asymptomatic. It's much more spread than was ebola and so it will keep us down for quite a bit longer. And those of us who ignore the realities will be kept down for really long. As in forever.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: kimmy on May 07, 2020, 10:57:03 pm
On the contrary, the asymptomatic carriers are exactly what makes coronavirus dangerous.  For most people the symptoms are either not there, or they are so mild that they escape notice.   When everybody was sick at our office in early March, we just thought a bad cold had gone around. Only later when our colleague tested positive when he was hospitalized for his heart attack did the possibility that we had the covid and not a common cold occur.

BC is talking about, sometime soon, beginning seratology testing to try to determine how far the virus has actually spread.  As a close contact of someone who tested positive, I will probably be among those contacted by BC CDC for testing.  I'm interested to see what the results are.

I think I have read that seratology studies, some of which have been done at small scale already, have found that more people than expected have coronavirus antibodies in their systems.

 -k
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 07, 2020, 11:06:08 pm
On the contrary, the asymptomatic carriers are exactly what makes coronavirus dangerous.  For most people the symptoms are either not there, or they are so mild that they escape notice.   When everybody was sick at our office in early March, we just thought a bad cold had gone around. Only later when our colleague tested positive when he was hospitalized for his heart attack did the possibility that we had the covid and not a common cold occur.

BC is talking about, sometime soon, beginning seratology testing to try to determine how far the virus has actually spread.  As a close contact of someone who tested positive, I will probably be among those contacted by BC CDC for testing.  I'm interested to see what the results are.

I think I have read that seratology studies, some of which have been done at small scale already, have found that more people than expected have coronavirus antibodies in their systems.

 -k

I guess it depends on whether you care about human costs, or economic costs.
It seems you have weighed in.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: kimmy on May 07, 2020, 11:24:41 pm
I guess it depends on whether you care about human costs, or economic costs.
It seems you have weighed in.

Keeping things locked down has its own human costs. People are isolated, they're losing their livelihoods, they're facing anxiety over money, they're stuck in their homes with partners who might be angry or abusive.

 -k
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on May 08, 2020, 06:12:47 am
Keeping things locked down has its own human costs. People are isolated, they're losing their livelihoods, they're facing anxiety over money, they're stuck in their homes with partners who might be angry or abusive.

 -k
The malls are wide open in Winnipeg. They might as well be closed. They're empty.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 08, 2020, 08:12:54 pm
Keeping things locked down has its own human costs. People are isolated, they're losing their livelihoods, they're facing anxiety over money, they're stuck in their homes with partners who might be angry or abusive.

 -k
Well said.  Nobody seems willing to acknowledge that even a little.  Iím not sure why, but itís probably agenda driven.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 08, 2020, 08:18:59 pm
Well said.  Nobody seems willing to acknowledge that even a little.  Iím not sure why, but itís probably agenda driven.

(Attachment Link)

Go for it shady. Go see kimmy. Let us know when you two start coughing and hacking and we'll send you a care package. Just stay home after OK?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on May 08, 2020, 08:33:24 pm
Even though restrictions have been lifted, a lot of businesses chose not to reopen yet because they didn't want to risk it. They also figured (probably correctly) that nobody was going to show up anyway.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 08, 2020, 08:42:26 pm
Even though restrictions have been lifted, a lot of businesses chose not to reopen yet because they didn't want to risk it. They also figured (probably correctly) that nobody was going to show up anyway.

Correct on both counts from what I see. I suspect both sides of the glass aren't yet comfortable taking risks. I suspect we here in Canada will be watching closely to what happens as our neighbors to the south try to open up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 09, 2020, 05:17:50 pm
I guess it depends on whether you care about human costs, or economic costs.
It seems you have weighed in.
No, itís actually balancing lives vs lives.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 09, 2020, 05:19:37 pm
Go for it shady. Go see kimmy. Let us know when you two start coughing and hacking and we'll send you a care package. Just stay home after OK?
I will.  If you actually cared about the science youíd know the risk to younger healthy people is extremely small.  You guys are bay shit crazy and hysterical.  Pun intended.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 09, 2020, 05:20:36 pm
Wait, I thought everyone was going to die! 🤣

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 09, 2020, 05:21:08 pm
Weird. 

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 09, 2020, 05:49:01 pm
Weird. 

(https://i.imgur.com/9aZfpYO.png)

Georgia confirms more than 1,000 new COVID-19 cases in 24 hours (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/1/1941864/-On-same-day-Gov-Kemp-begins-to-reopen-Georgia-state-confirms-1-000-new-cases-in-24-hours)

Quote
Everyone with more than three brain cells to rub together tried to tell dubiously elected Republican Gov. Brian Kemp that his science-free idea of reopening Georgia amidst the novel coronavirus pandemic was a terrible idea. Even strange South Carolina racist Sen. Lindsay Graham thought Kemp was moving too fast. Now, the Atlanta Journal Constitution reports that within a 24-hour span, the Peach State confirmed more than 1,000 new COVID-19 cases.

On Thursday {April 30}, the Georgia Department of Public Health had a confirmed number of 26,000 cases in the state. On Friday, with 164,465 tests reportedly administered, that number has shot up to 27,023. This comes after Gov. Kemp decreed that gyms, barber shops, massage parlors, tattoo parlors, and bowling alleys could reopen today, with restaurants and theaters being allowed to reopen on Monday, May 1.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 14, 2020, 03:08:45 pm
Georgia confirms more than 1,000 new COVID-19 cases in 24 hours (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/1/1941864/-On-same-day-Gov-Kemp-begins-to-reopen-Georgia-state-confirms-1-000-new-cases-in-24-hours)
D'oh! (in a Homer Simpson voice)

Floridaís new cases actually declined by 14% compared to the previous week, and Georgiaís fell by 12%Ē between May 4 and May 11, Axios reported
https://www.mediaite.com/news/florida-and-georgia-coronavirus-cases-decline-despite-concerns-south-dakota-cases-shoot-up-2/

Welp!  Bwaaahaaaa.  Just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about.  Nor would you.  You think you're getting the straight scoop from China.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 14, 2020, 03:09:46 pm
Keep bringing the panic p*orn though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 14, 2020, 04:23:13 pm
Keep bringing the panic p*orn though.

Just wondering what your little p*orn thing is all about.;
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 14, 2020, 04:33:09 pm
Just wondering what your little p*orn thing is all about.;
The first time I typed porn it displayed it all as asterisks. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 14, 2020, 08:24:17 pm
Another scientific heads up.  The average age of somebody dying of the Wuhan coronavirus is older than the average age people die (ie life expectancy).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 14, 2020, 08:49:53 pm
Another scientific heads up.  The average age of somebody dying of the Wuhan coronavirus is older than the average age people die (ie life expectancy).

So what you're saying is that COVID is actually making people live longer?  It's a miracle drug?  I should try and go get COVID right now?

I kid, i kid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 15, 2020, 02:43:17 am
ya, the ShadyOne tried this same Georgia state play in another thread... bubbleBurstingWaldo would have none of it!

Georgia confirms more than 1,000 new COVID-19 cases in 24 hours (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/1/1941864/-On-same-day-Gov-Kemp-begins-to-reopen-Georgia-state-confirms-1-000-new-cases-in-24-hours)

Quote
Everyone with more than three brain cells to rub together tried to tell dubiously elected Republican Gov. Brian Kemp that his science-free idea of reopening Georgia amidst the novel coronavirus pandemic was a terrible idea. Even strange South Carolina racist Sen. Lindsay Graham thought Kemp was moving too fast. Now, the Atlanta Journal Constitution reports that within a 24-hour span, the Peach State confirmed more than 1,000 new COVID-19 cases.

On Thursday {April 30}, the Georgia Department of Public Health had a confirmed number of 26,000 cases in the state. On Friday, with 164,465 tests reportedly administered, that number has shot up to 27,023. This comes after Gov. Kemp decreed that gyms, barber shops, massage parlors, tattoo parlors, and bowling alleys could reopen today, with restaurants and theaters being allowed to reopen on Monday, May 1.

D'oh! (in a Homer Simpson voice)

Floridaís new cases actually declined by 14% compared to the previous week, and Georgiaís fell by 12%Ē between May 4 and May 11, Axios reported
https://www.mediaite.com/news/florida-and-georgia-coronavirus-cases-decline-despite-concerns-south-dakota-cases-shoot-up-2/

Welp!  Bwaaahaaaa.  Just admit that you have no idea what you're talking about.  Nor would you.

you blusteringBlowhard! You're the one running away from 2 posts in the other {Outbreak} thread - 2 posts where I've repeated challenges to you... and you have the gall to state someone... anyone... doesn't know what they're talking about! That's you azzhole... either put-up or shut your festeringGob! Should I cross-post those 2 posts in this thread? I mean, you've just done it here; posting the same thing now in 2 separate threads. C'mon lil' buddy, that gets you a ChazTimeOut on the other board - so why are you doing it here?  ;D

in any case, it's early days coming out of so-called lockdown - notwithstanding, these U.S. States have all seen increases in COVID-19 cases: Oregon, California, Arizona, South Dakota, Minnesota, Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Delaware, and Maine. And, of course, in isolation the total cases metric doesn't speak to a respective states outbreak severity... because the total cases count is limited by the amount of testing in each state, as well as differences in reporting. Additionally presumptive state-to-state comparisons must recognize that there was no standard complement of applied 'lockdown' restrictions within respective states and not all states came out of 'lockdown' on the same date.

but hey now member Shady! Have a lookee at this most recent Florida data... coming out of 'lockdown' on May 4th... not enough points yet for a trendline, but stay tuned, hey! Okay, lil' buddy - you're up: now you do the state of Georgia!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/YNfCc6M.png)


Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 11:44:50 am


you blusteringBlowhard! You're the one running away from 2 posts in the other {Outbreak} thread - 2 posts where I've repeated challenges to you... and you have the gall to state someone... anyone... doesn't know what they're talking about! That's you azzhole... either put-up or shut your festeringGob! Should I cross-post those 2 posts in this thread? I mean, you've just done it here; posting the same thing now in 2 separate threads. C'mon lil' buddy, that gets you a ChazTimeOut on the other board - so why are you doing it here?  ;D

in any case, it's early days coming out of so-called lockdown - notwithstanding, these U.S. States have all seen increases in COVID-19 cases: Oregon, California, Arizona, South Dakota, Minnesota, Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Delaware, and Maine. And, of course, in isolation the total cases metric doesn't speak to a respective states outbreak severity... because the total cases count is limited by the amount of testing in each state, as well as differences in reporting. Additionally presumptive state-to-state comparisons must recognize that there was no standard complement of applied 'lockdown' restrictions within respective states and not all states came out of 'lockdown' on the same date.

but hey now member Shady! Have a lookee at this most recent Florida data... coming out of 'lockdown' on May 4th... not enough points yet for a trendline, but stay tuned, hey! Okay, lil' buddy - you're up: now you do the state of Georgia!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/YNfCc6M.png)
Looks pretty steady to me.  Are you upset?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 15, 2020, 12:04:39 pm
early days coming out of so-called lockdown - notwithstanding, these U.S. States have all seen increases in COVID-19 cases: Oregon, California, Arizona, South Dakota, Minnesota, Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Delaware, and Maine. And, of course, in isolation the total cases metric doesn't speak to a respective states outbreak severity... because the total cases count is limited by the amount of testing in each state, as well as differences in reporting. Additionally presumptive state-to-state comparisons must recognize that there was no standard complement of applied 'lockdown' restrictions within respective states and not all states came out of 'lockdown' on the same date.

but hey now member Shady! Have a lookee at this most recent Florida data... coming out of 'lockdown' on May 4th... not enough points yet for a trendline, but stay tuned, hey! Okay, lil' buddy - you're up: now you do the state of Georgia!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/YNfCc6M.png)

reads like you have no problem blindly accepting a most limited data sampling - of course... that's a part of your brand! Meanwhile you ignore the fact that current estimates of the incubation period range from 1-14 days with median estimates of 5-6 days between infection and the onset of clinical symptoms of COVID-19. While you also ignore that listing of U.S. states that have increased cases... you ignore the influence testing has on case counts while also ignoring all manner of caveats concerning testing (testing methodology, type(s) of testing, number of tests, targeted testing, false negatives, etc..) - of course you ignore it all!

so instead of acknowledging the small data sample, you ignore the extended dates beyond your cited example reference... dates showing significant increases. And now... NOW... you twaddleOn about, "total cases versus active cases", when your own example offered is with respect to total cases!. Here, have another dose of Florida total cases... is that curve flattening, hey Mr. Science?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/w6eShsg.png)

Please differentiate between total active cases vs total cases.  Total cases will never go down.  Total active cases will.  There hasn't been significant increases.  As per my cite.  There's been a 12 - 14% decrease.  perhaps you need to contact Axios and argue with them.  Bummer that cases are going down huh?  Sucks big time!

like I said, now... NOW... you shift from total to active - but you haven't the mettle to even offer any data/numbers for active cases. And you dumbPhack, the Axios data reference you initially hyped is not active cases! What a maroon, what a rube you are!  ;D

again, your peaBrain can't interpret what I've just said about your referenced link: "reads like you have no problem blindly accepting a most limited data sampling - of course... that's a part of your brand! Meanwhile you ignore the fact that current estimates of the incubation period range from 1-14 days with median estimates of 5-6 days between infection and the onset of clinical symptoms of COVID-19. While you also ignore that listing of U.S. states that have increased cases... you ignore the influence testing has on case counts while also ignoring all manner of caveats concerning testing (testing methodology, type(s) of testing, number of tests, targeted testing, false negatives, etc..) - of course you ignore it all!"

Looks pretty steady to me.  Are you upset?

ya member Shady - I'd forgotten all about your data eyeballing prowess... particularly with such small data samples!  ;D

now! Member Shady - quit posting the same shyte in multiple threads. Like I said, that gets you a ChazTimeout on the other board... so why do it here, hey?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Rue on May 24, 2020, 12:47:04 pm
The same reason you do it. Blustering blowhard. Lol. Coming from you. Lol. You are hilarious. Quick go get Omni to help you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 24, 2020, 12:51:13 pm
The same reason you do it. Blustering blowhard. Lol. Coming from you. Lol. You are hilarious. Quick go get Omni to help you.

Quite obvious who needs the help.  ;D You're probably better off at "redneckville"
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: the_squid on May 24, 2020, 12:54:59 pm
The same reason you do it. Blustering blowhard. Lol. Coming from you. Lol. You are hilarious. Quick go get Omni to help you.

I almost miss the times your posts were 4000 word rambling manifestos... they were actually easier to ignore.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 25, 2020, 09:28:12 am
Good news regarding the Wuhan covid-19.

The CDC just came out with a report that should be earth-shattering to the narrative of the political class, yet it will go into the thick pile of vital data and information about the virus that is not getting out to the public. For the first time, the CDC has attempted to offer a real estimate of the overall death rate for COVID-19, and under its most likely scenario, the number is 0.26%. Officials estimate a 0.4% fatality rate among those who are symptomatic and project a 35% rate of asymptomatic cases among those infected, which drops the overall infection fatality rate (IFR) to just 0.26% ó almost exactly where Stanford researchers pegged it a month ago.


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 25, 2020, 11:42:11 am
Good news regarding the Wuhan covid-19.

 ;D ever the talking parrot!

by the by, without even bothering to look at the CDC link you offered... and your obviously gleeful interpretation of it, the CDC has been gutted by Trump - it's no longer the prestigious and recognized body it was.

but hey now, science survey says:

Scientists Say New, Lower CDC Estimates For Severity Of COVID-19 Are Optimistic (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/22/860981956/scientists-say-new-lower-cdc-estimates-for-severity-of-covid-19-are-optimistic)

Quote
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention this week revised downward its estimates for future infections and deaths from the coronavirus, painting a picture of the pandemic that some scientists say is overly optimistic ó and that plays into fears the agency could be responding to political pressure.


Four out of seven experts consulted earlier by the Center for Public Integrity found the CDC's death rate estimates from April too low. The revised figures remain too optimistic, Harvard epidemiologist William Hanage said.

"If you're taking these numbers to be your guide, they're obviously lowball estimates," he said.

The fatality rates in the document "are certainly at the very low end" of those that scientists think possible, agreed Joseph Lewnard, an epidemiologist at the University of California, Berkeley. "Greater clarity on the scientific basis for these estimates is urgently needed."

Another expert, University of Washington biologist Carl Bergstrom, said that even the CDC's worst-case scenario is realistically a best-case scenario. The agency's worst-case fatality rate, he noted, is more optimistic than recent, high-quality coronavirus data about the death rate in Spain.

"These [CDC] numbers are so far outside of the scientific consensus that this strikes me as a devious and cynical effort to manipulate not only federal modeling but the broader scientific discourse," Bergstrom wrote on Twitter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 25, 2020, 11:56:22 am
I see Trump is threatening tyo move his upcoming convention out of NC to some state where they can jam the room full and to hell with social distancing. Texas maybe? Well in any case it can't hurt to thin out the GOP a bit. Especially the type who will risk lives just to be in a room with the idiot.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Rue on May 26, 2020, 10:34:44 am
I almost miss the times your posts were 4000 word rambling manifestos... they were actually easier to ignore.

..take ritalin..itbmay help you read past two words..however J appreciate your being overwhelmed.. doesn't take much..  Omni come running! Lol.

You are hilarious with your attempts to "intimidate" Shady. Lol. More!



Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 30, 2020, 01:33:35 pm
Good news.

0.4%: Is The CDCís New Estimated Case Fatality Rate
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html#box

And...

Up to 80% of COVID-19 Infections Are Asymptomatic
https://time.com/5842669/coronavirus-asymptomatic-transmission/

This new science is one of the reasons alarmists have lost their indefinite lockdown argument.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 30, 2020, 01:35:18 pm
Also, in terms f all cases in the United States...

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on May 30, 2020, 09:06:39 pm
More interesting news.

Itís Not Whether You Were Exposed to the Virus. Itís How Much.

A few viral particles cannot make you sick ó the immune system would vanquish the intruders before they could. But how much virus is needed for an infection to take root? What is the minimum effective dose?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/health/coronavirus-transmission-dose.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 30, 2020, 09:31:15 pm
More interesting news.

Itís Not Whether You Were Exposed to the Virus. Itís How Much.

A few viral particles cannot make you sick ó the immune system would vanquish the intruders before they could. But how much virus is needed for an infection to take root? What is the minimum effective dose?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/health/coronavirus-transmission-dose.html

I suggest staying when possible and wearing your mask when you have to go out. Unless you think you can see and count nasal droplets that could be in your area.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: eyeball on May 30, 2020, 10:47:46 pm
This new science is one of the reasons alarmists have lost their indefinite lockdown argument.
What indefinite lockdown argument?  That's complete hyperbole and a creation of your imagination.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2020, 11:01:16 am
Also, in terms f all cases in the United States...

(https://i.imgur.com/7j1ZYlK.jpg)

double posting again, hey member Shady! Here have a double-posted reply to match:

oh member Shady! The 2 "less than honest broker' guys at Fundstrat are under long-standing criticism of how they 'present' data for their principal financial interests (hence the name 'Fundstrat')... in this case their own 'cherry-pick' is the Monday May 11th date. Monday's are always lower in total numbers because of the weekend lull - that's why Tuesday's have always been the highest day of reported data... the weekend catch-up day!

in any case, considering how you purposely repeatedly singled out New York City as a part of your own politicization against Democrat Governors of U.S. states, here's an interesting graphic (on the left) that now isolates the ever reducing numbers from NYC... what do you see now, hey member Shady - what now?

(https://i.imgur.com/CtkVJDh.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2020, 11:24:57 am
Good news.

0.4%: Is The CDCís New Estimated Case Fatality Rate
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html#box

 ;D just a few posts earlier, the waldo busted your same play - here, again:

Scientists Say New, Lower CDC Estimates For Severity Of COVID-19 Are Optimistic (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/22/860981956/scientists-say-new-lower-cdc-estimates-for-severity-of-covid-19-are-optimistic)

Quote
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention this week revised downward its estimates for future infections and deaths from the coronavirus, painting a picture of the pandemic that some scientists say is overly optimistic ó and that plays into fears the agency could be responding to political pressure.


Four out of seven experts consulted earlier by the Center for Public Integrity found the CDC's death rate estimates from April too low. The revised figures remain too optimistic, Harvard epidemiologist William Hanage said.

"If you're taking these numbers to be your guide, they're obviously lowball estimates," he said.

The fatality rates in the document "are certainly at the very low end" of those that scientists think possible, agreed Joseph Lewnard, an epidemiologist at the University of California, Berkeley. "Greater clarity on the scientific basis for these estimates is urgently needed."

Another expert, University of Washington biologist Carl Bergstrom, said that even the CDC's worst-case scenario is realistically a best-case scenario. The agency's worst-case fatality rate, he noted, is more optimistic than recent, high-quality coronavirus data about the death rate in Spain.

"These [CDC] numbers are so far outside of the scientific consensus that this strikes me as a devious and cynical effort to manipulate not only federal modeling but the broader scientific discourse," Bergstrom wrote on Twitter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2020, 11:25:45 am
This new science is one of the reasons alarmists have lost their indefinite lockdown argument.

who was making this, as you say, "indefinite lockdown argument" - name the names... sure you can!  ;D
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2020, 11:31:01 am
Good news.

Up to 80% of COVID-19 Infections Are Asymptomatic
https://time.com/5842669/coronavirus-asymptomatic-transmission/

it is... news - perhaps you could offer a member Shady spin on why its, as you say, "Good news" - yes?

in any case, from the study itself:

Quote
authors: Alvin J Ing, Christine Cocks, Jeffery Peter Green

Abstract

We describe what we believe is the first instance of complete COVID-19 testing of all passengers and crew on an isolated cruise ship during the current COVID-19 pandemic. Of the 217 passengers and crew on board, 128 tested positive for COVID-19 on reverse transcriptionĖPCR (59%). Of the COVID-19-positive patients, 19% (24) were symptomatic; 6.2% (8) required medical evacuation; 3.1% (4) were intubated and ventilated; and the mortality was 0.8% (1). The majority of COVID-19-positive patients were asymptomatic (81%, 104 patients). We conclude that the prevalence of COVID-19 on affected cruise ships is likely to be significantly underestimated, and strategies are needed to assess and monitor all passengers to prevent community transmission after disembarkation.
.
.
We conclude from this observational study that

    - The prevalence of COVID-19 on affected cruise ships is likely to be significantly underestimated, and strategies are needed to assess and monitor all passengers to prevent community transmission after disembarkation.

    - Rapid Ab COVID-19 testing of patients in the acute phase is unreliable.

    - The majority of COVID-19-positive patients were asymptomatic (81%).

    - The presence of discordant COVID-19 results in numerous cabins suggests that there may be a significant false-negative rate with RT-PCR testing. Follow-up testing is being performed to determine this.

    - The timing of symptoms in some passengers (day 24) suggests that there may have been cross contamination after cabin isolation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on May 31, 2020, 11:39:47 am
it is... news - perhaps you could offer a member Shady spin on why its, as you say, "Good news" - yes?

in any case, from the study itself:

Yes I was kind of wondering as to the logic of concluding that being able to carry/transmit a potentially deadly virus without knowing you had it was somehow  "good news". Yikes!

The good news will be when they get the testing to the point it needs to be so that even the asymptomatic cases can be traced.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 04, 2020, 01:05:25 pm
Yes I was kind of wondering as to the logic of concluding that being able to carry/transmit a potentially deadly virus without knowing you had it was somehow  "good news". Yikes!

The good news will be when they get the testing to the point it needs to be so that even the asymptomatic cases can be traced.
The worst thing about the Internet is how it makes the particularly dim feel like experts on things they know nothing about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: cybercoma on June 04, 2020, 07:48:49 pm
The worst thing about the Internet is how it makes the particularly dim feel like experts on things they know nothing about.
Game. Set. Match.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 05, 2020, 10:45:18 am
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/05/01/covid-19-has-become-one-of-the-biggest-killers-of-2020?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/dailychartcovid19hasbecomeoneofthebiggestkillersof2020graphicdetail
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 07, 2020, 05:22:55 pm
Shady, why not stop by this thread? I thought facts didn't care about your feelings?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 07, 2020, 07:36:11 pm
Shady, why not stop by this thread? I thought facts didn't care about your feelings?
Sorry, which facts would you like a comment on?  The fact that the Wuhan coronavirus is more deadly than SARS, etc doesnít really say much.  Those were barely notable.  We have flu seasons worse than those ďpandemicĒ.  It also doesnít change the data related to fatality rates by age and health.  I value your input though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 07, 2020, 08:06:36 pm
Sorry, which facts would you like a comment on?  The fact that the Wuhan coronavirus is more deadly than SARS, etc doesnít really say much.  Those were barely notable.  We have flu seasons worse than those ďpandemicĒ.  It also doesnít change the data related to fatality rates by age and health.  I value your input though.

Ah, no. The two month death rate for Covid has been right up there with the worst influenza years this century and that was with most of the country locked down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on June 07, 2020, 08:27:53 pm
Ah, no. The two month death rate for Covid has been right up there with the worst influenza years this century and that was with most of the country locked down.

Quite true, facts that the naysayers (such as shady) seem to not understand, or choose to ignore. My fear is that such attitude will help create the second wave as things open up before the testing is adequate. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 07, 2020, 08:51:46 pm
Quite true, facts that the naysayers (such as shady) seem to not understand, or choose to ignore. My fear is that such attitude will help create the second wave as things open up before the testing is adequate.

What puzzles me is they seem to think it wouldn't have been any worse if we had done nothing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 07, 2020, 09:03:43 pm
Ah, no. The two month death rate for Covid has been right up there with the worst influenza years this century and that was with most of the country locked down.
I was referring to SARS, Ebola, etc.  Not covid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on June 07, 2020, 09:05:01 pm
What puzzles me is they seem to think it wouldn't have been any worse if we had done nothing.

We're lucky here in BC that we have Dr. Bonnie Henry as provincial health officer who knew better and took the bull by the horns early. The infection rate here is the proof in the pudding.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 07, 2020, 09:05:04 pm
What puzzles me is they seem to think it wouldn't have been any worse if we had done nothing.
Iíve never said do nothing.  Thatís an ongoing fallacy that never dies for some reason.  Itís a false choice as well.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 07, 2020, 09:06:55 pm
We're lucky here in BC that we have Dr. Bonnie Henry as provincial health officer who knew better and took the bull by the horns early. The infection rate here is the proof in the pudding.
BC didnít act any sooner than the rest of Canada.  Nice revisionist history.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 07, 2020, 09:09:24 pm
Iíve never said do nothing.  Thatís an ongoing fallacy that never dies for some reason.  Itís a false choice as well.

Well what is the choice then? Mr Expert.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 07, 2020, 09:14:47 pm
BC didnít act any sooner than the rest of Canada.  Nice revisionist history.

Ya, actually it did In late March BC was testing at triple the rate per capita than any jurisdiction in Canada. 75% more than South Korea.

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3077016/coronavirus-british-columbia-testing-covid-19

It also sent provincial officials to airports and border crossings to tell people to self isolate because it wasn't happy with the slow response from the federal government.

I think this statement at the time by Dr Henry is at the core of BC"s strategy and success.

Quote
ďTo be clear: we are absolutely testing and contact tracing anybody for whom we donít know the source of their infection,Ē she said. ďWe know the source of infection for people who are coming in from outside Canada.Ē
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on June 07, 2020, 09:16:27 pm
BC didnít act any sooner than the rest of Canada.  Nice revisionist history.

The reality of the infection rates in BC is not "revisionist history" shady. It's actual facts. Luckily for us Dr. Henry didn't look at his as 'oh just another flu", or heaven forbid "a hoax" (heard of that one have ya?" or we'd be dying like they are in the states.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 08, 2020, 12:46:07 am
Snacks don't care about your feelings.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on June 08, 2020, 05:44:21 am
I keep hearing about new cases, but looking at the graphs it seems like Canada will be down to negligible cases by end of June.  The US is also declining, though at a slower rate. 

And I don't see how a 2nd wave could happen in the atmosphere of continued warnings and official safety restrictions.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 08, 2020, 06:14:52 am
I keep hearing about new cases, but looking at the graphs it seems like Canada will be down to negligible cases by end of June.  The US is also declining, though at a slower rate. 
Georgia, Florida. Texas, California...? Not so much.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: MH on June 08, 2020, 08:15:09 am
Georgia, Florida. Texas, California...? Not so much.

Will the overall numbers go up ?  If not, will the local "blue" states find a way to care about this ?  Who will they blame though ?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Boges on June 08, 2020, 08:41:43 am
I think we're just going to have to be comfortable with some level of death associated with this disease.

Heck, there are many things where the death rate is just the price of living in society.

I don't think governments can hit reverse on these figures. Especially if hospitals remain under capacity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 08, 2020, 09:41:10 am
New Zealand announces economy going back to normal  after no new cases for 17 days. People entering the country will still have to quarantine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 08, 2020, 10:02:14 am
Yikes!

Coronavirus pandemic may lead to 75,000 "deaths of despair" from suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, study says
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-deaths-suicides-drugs-alcohol-pandemic-75000/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 08, 2020, 11:12:24 am
Sorry, which facts would you like a comment on?  The fact that the Wuhan coronavirus is more deadly than SARS, etc doesnít really say much.  Those were barely notable.  We have flu seasons worse than those ďpandemicĒ.  It also doesnít change the data related to fatality rates by age and health.  I value your input though.

Week to week, itís one of the most deadly killers on the planet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on June 08, 2020, 11:27:20 am
Yikes!

Coronavirus pandemic may lead to 75,000 "deaths of despair" from suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, study says
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-deaths-suicides-drugs-alcohol-pandemic-75000/

good on ya, member Shady! Good on ya!

from the 'study/brief':

(https://i.imgur.com/ULgRFij.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: the_squid on June 08, 2020, 07:45:49 pm
good on ya, member Shady! Good on ya!

from the 'study/brief':

(https://i.imgur.com/ULgRFij.png)

Shady didnít read his own linked report and it didnít actually say what he wanted it to say?  Wow...  thatís a shocker.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 08, 2020, 09:55:33 pm
good on ya, member Shady! Good on ya!

from the 'study/brief':

(https://i.imgur.com/ULgRFij.png)
Iíve never suggested that everything be reopened ďfastĒ as you quoted.  More false choices.  My continued point is that all lives need to be weighed when making policy decisions.  You pandemic alarmists donít want to acknowledge any serious consequences of being shut down.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 08, 2020, 10:00:02 pm
Well shazaam!!!

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is Ďvery rare,í WHO says
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html

Itís a good thing we shut down our economy over the of asymptomatic spreading.  Díoh!  Apparently itís the coughers and sneezers that are the big spreaders of the virus, which makes it much easier to contain.  Itís more proof that its the immunocompromised that should be protected.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 08, 2020, 10:00:28 pm
Trumpers will use anything to try to get a divide in society, even when everyone is in agreement. They are the really dangerous virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 08, 2020, 10:01:57 pm
Week to week, itís one of the most deadly killers on the planet.
It was, to the sick and elderly and immunocompromised.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 08, 2020, 10:03:56 pm
It was, to the sick and elderly and immunocompromised.

THOSE ARE FUCKING PEOPLE YOU MORON.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 08, 2020, 10:04:27 pm
Trumpers will use anything to try to get a divide in society, even when everyone is in agreement. They are the really dangerous virus.
You shouldnít be afraid of facts.  Besides, donít you have a police killing to use to divide the country?  Even though 99% of people agree that it was terrible and wrong?  Donít you have a police to defund and disband or something?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 08, 2020, 10:05:19 pm
THOSE ARE **** PEOPLE YOU MORON.
Yes, and Iíve always stated that those are the most important people to protect.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 08, 2020, 10:25:42 pm
You shouldnít be afraid of facts.  Besides, donít you have a police killing to use to divide the country?  Even though 99% of people agree that it was terrible and wrong?  Donít you have a police to defund and disband or something?
Nope, like Joe Biden, I don't support disbanding the police, but I do agree with redistributing some of their responsibilities to social workers and healthcare professionals. Probably 99% of people would agree with me on that too. I don't doubt that you are in the 1% who doesn't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2020, 12:50:28 am
My continued point is that all lives need to be weighed when making policy decisions.

(https://i.imgur.com/fRXzrbA.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2020, 01:19:17 am
Well shazaam!!!

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is Ďvery rare,í WHO says
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html

Itís a good thing we shut down our economy over the of asymptomatic spreading.  Díoh!  Apparently itís the coughers and sneezers that are the big spreaders of the virus, which makes it much easier to contain.  Itís more proof that its the immunocompromised that should be protected.

well shazaam! The WHO representative at that news conference answered a question; one that's a matter of semantics... and in this case, the lazy-azzed CNBC "journalists" rushed their article without properly framing those semantics, particularly in regards the referenced studies. Of course, it's been replayed a brazillion times - clearly aimed at the less discriminating types, like you member Shady - like you!  ;D

what the journo's missed was the WHO reps clear distinctions offered; that in regards the limited studies/data available, it is important to distinguish even within the broadest of case categorizations; to breakdown those COVID-19 cases that are truly asymptomatic vs pre-symptomatic vs mildly symptomatic. In that press conference, the WHO rep stated there are actually fewer asymptomatic patients than previously thought; where she states, "If you actually go back and say how many of them are truly asymptomatic, we find out that many have really mild disease, very mild disease, theyíre not quote unquote COVID symptoms, meaning they may not have developed fever yet."

again; an issue of semantics: The Term ĎAsymptomaticí Is More Complicated Than It Seems When It Comes To Coronavirus Infections (https://www.forbes.com/sites/coronavirusfrontlines/2020/05/16/the-term-asymptomatic-is-more-complicated-than-it-seems-when-it-comes-to-coronavirus-infections/#75138aa61d9a)

Quote
So what exactly does asymptomatic mean? In medicine, it means that a person has absolutely no symptoms. None.

People who are currently categorized as having asymptomatic Covid-19 infections appear on a spectrum ranging from those who are truly asymptomatic to those who have mild symptoms but donít seek medical support.  The latter group is sometimes referred to as ďpaucisymptomaticĒ or ďsubclinicalĒ because they are below the threshold of detection by the healthcare system. These individuals rarely alter their daily activity, so no one knows they are infected.

Other infected individuals may have no symptoms for the first few days before exhibiting classic symptoms of Covid-19.  These people are classified as ďpresymptomatic.Ē  Unfortunately paucisymptomatic and presymptomatic individuals of these groups are commonly mislabeled as asymptomatic in both the medical literature and media.
.
One might question why these distinctions matter. And some would argue that they donít Ė if a person doesnít exhibit severe symptoms or is presymptomatic, then they are still below the detection of the healthcare system and may continue to spread the virus. However, as we learn more about the virus, it will become very important to understand what proportion of infected people fall into these three different categories and the role that people in each category play in transmitting infection. This will be integral in answering questions like if individuals with mild symptoms are more likely to spread the virus compared to those with no symptoms.

Additionally, with better public education and healthcare capacity, people with mild symptoms could more readily self-identify and seek medical care earlier. By isolating these individuals and their close contacts sooner, we could reduce the spread of the virus. Identifying these mild infections of Covid-19 could also help us derive more accurate estimates of where we are in the ďcurveĒ as well as the true burden of infection.

member Shady, try again - try harder!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: eyeball on June 09, 2020, 11:50:14 am
Yes, and Iíve always stated that those are the most important people to protect.
By telling them they should hide in their basements as if they were the least important people.  It's not just the part of your thread title where you state facts don't care about feelings that underscores your apparent lack of sincerity or compassion. Your oft-repeated concern for the vulnerable sounds like a bunch of self-serving hooey.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2020, 12:01:23 pm
Paucisymptomatic, presymptomatic, asymptomatic. It all boils down to the same thing if they are infectious and not showing symptoms.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 09, 2020, 01:23:54 pm
Well shazaam!!!

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is Ďvery rare,í WHO says
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html
Let's see if the guy so concerned about fake news has the credibility to make a retraction.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/health/who-coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread-bn/index.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: BC_cheque on June 09, 2020, 01:27:48 pm
What puzzles me is they seem to think it wouldn't have been any worse if we had done nothing.

This is the frustrating part about the whole thing and I said it on March 15th when our office closed down. 

I knew that once the closures were effective, the covidiots would claim victory when they fought it every step of the way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 01:30:28 pm
By telling them they should hide in their basements as if they were the least important people.  It's not just the part of your thread title where you state facts don't care about feelings that underscores your apparent lack of sincerity or compassion. Your oft-repeated concern for the vulnerable sounds like a bunch of self-serving hooey.
No, but my generally staying home, or avoiding high risk situations.  Why is everybody hiding in their basements more accessible to you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 01:32:15 pm
Paucisymptomatic, presymptomatic, asymptomatic. It all boils down to the same thing if they are infectious and not showing symptoms.
Iím not sure who they are, but theyíre not correct.  Thatís certainly not something that Iíve ever advocated for.  I see weíre back to false choices and fake arguments again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 01:33:57 pm
This is the frustrating part about the whole thing and I said it on March 15th when our office closed down. 

I knew that once the closures were effective, the covidiots would claim victory when they fought it every step of the way.
The only covidiots are the ones ignoring the science and making policy based on fear and feelings.  I swear the world has been operating on feelings without logic and reason for the last several months. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 09, 2020, 01:38:17 pm
The only covidiots are the ones ignoring the science and making policy based on fear and feelings.  I swear the world has been operating on feelings without logic and reason for the last several months.
Too bad you are completely incapable of describing the "science" you speak of. When you try, it appears to just be your "feelings". I'll continue to stick with epediomologists over conspiracy theorists who think Rogers is personally targeting their FoxNews cable subscription.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: BC_cheque on June 09, 2020, 01:39:45 pm
Too bad you are completely incapable of describing the "science" you speak of. When you try, it appears to just be your "feelings". I'll continue to stick with epediomologists over conspiracy theorists who think Rogers is personally targeting their FoxNews cable subscription.

But but but Facebook said.   ::)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 01:43:58 pm
Too bad you are completely incapable of describing the "science" you speak of. When you try, it appears to just be your "feelings". I'll continue to stick with epediomologists over conspiracy theorists who think Rogers is personally targeting their FoxNews cable subscription.
Iíve consistently posted links to science based information.  Perhaps you should start at page 1.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 01:44:52 pm
But but but Facebook said.   ::)
Exactly.  Facebook says weíre all gonna die! 

You should start reading this thread from page 1 as well.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 01:47:05 pm
New study, which shouldíve been obvious from the start. Hopefully this will be policy going forward, instead of the disastrous one size fits all approach that panic and fear led to in the first place.

Targeted Lockdowns Are Better
A new study finds they save more lives and do less economic damage

https://www.wsj.com/articles/targeted-lockdowns-are-better-11588630768
This is not wanting to do nothing. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Boges on June 09, 2020, 02:29:06 pm
This is not wanting to do nothing.

Again with the articles behind paywalls.  ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 09, 2020, 02:42:04 pm
Iíve consistently posted links to science based information.  Perhaps you should start at page 1.
You think you have but you seem not to have read them yourself because they often wind up contradicting your argument. And when that is pointed out, you never have the credibility to clarify or retract your erroneous information.

This is what real "fake news" is. Not the actual journalism you cite when they have the credibility to retract something because it may be misinterpreted.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 02:46:03 pm
You think you have but you seem not to have read them yourself because they often wind up contradicting your argument. And when that is pointed out, you never have the credibility to clarify or retract your erroneous information.

This is what real "fake news" is. Not the actual journalism you cite when they have the credibility to retract something because it may be misinterpreted.
Thatís just not true.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Boges on June 09, 2020, 02:52:29 pm
Targeted lockdowns of China worked so well.  ::)

If you only lock down certain areas then the people in those areas will leave. Much like Europeans flocked to North America after hearing travel would be restricted.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 03:17:12 pm
Targeted lockdowns of China worked so well.  ::)

If you only lock down certain areas then the people in those areas will leave. Much like Europeans flocked to North America after hearing travel would be restricted.
People flocked to other areas before anything was even known about the virus.  They didnít practice any kind of mitigation and distancing.  Iím not at all against the initial stay at home orders.  But at some point life needs to go on.  People need to return to work, practicing the proper protocols.  You canít wait for a vaccine. There may NEVER be a vaccine.  And SCIENCE tells us that relatively health people have a very tiny chance of dying.  In some cases, statistically zero.  Thankfully most countries, provinces, states have realized that.  Phased in openings are happening regardless of the continued alarmists.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2020, 05:22:37 pm
Iíve never suggested that everything be reopened ďfastĒ as you quoted.  More false choices.  My continued point is that all lives need to be weighed when making policy decisions.  You pandemic alarmists donít want to acknowledge any serious consequences of being shut down.

you're so all over the map! You keep pretending you're "all about the science"... yet all you do is drop go-fetch links favouring click-bait headlines... while never actually adding your own personal comment/interpretations.

your "deaths of despair" angle was all about protecting the economy by lessening the impact of shutdowns... by shortening those shutdowns - by reopening sooner/faster! That's so confirmed by this, your latest attempt to falsely claim "you're all about the science":

This is not wanting to do nothing.
 
New study, which shouldíve been obvious from the start. Hopefully this will be policy going forward, instead of the disastrous one size fits all approach that panic and fear led to in the first place.

Targeted Lockdowns Are Better
A new study finds they save more lives and do less economic damage

https://www.wsj.com/articles/targeted-lockdowns-are-better-11588630768

=> it's not a study; it's not peer-reviewed... it's simply a working paper from economists that relies upon a model they developed. The economists propose a modeling approach that presumes to find an acceptable mortality rate while favouring preserved economic output - all within a methodology that compares uniform policies applied to all age groups versus targeted policies applied only to high-risk groups... a targeted approach that has the oldest group of persons over age 65 under complete lockdown until the arrival of a vaccine.

=> your claimed "science" doesn't include any persons with medical/epidemiology knowledge. At least your referenced economists offer a caveat to that end; one adding a, "caution that their calculations do not take account of many real-world variables and uncertainties, such as economic heterogeneity and factors besides age that affect vulnerability to the virus."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2020, 05:33:58 pm
Let's see if the guy so concerned about fake news has the credibility to make a retraction.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/health/who-coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread-bn/index.html

I just know member Shady will come through here! Now he may not preface it with a walk-back of his leading "shazaam!!!", but I trust the member will do the right thing!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2020, 05:57:04 pm
Quite true, facts that the naysayers (such as shady) seem to not understand, or choose to ignore. My fear is that such attitude will help create the second wave as things open up before the testing is adequate.
What puzzles me is they seem to think it wouldn't have been any worse if we had done nothing.
This is the frustrating part about the whole thing and I said it on March 15th when our office closed down. 

I knew that once the closures were effective, the covidiots would claim victory when they fought it every step of the way.

Coronavirus shutdowns prevented 60 million infections in the USA (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/06/08/covid-19-us-lockdown-prevented-60-m-coronavirus-infections-study-says/5317334002/)

Quote
Researchers found the USA may have been able to avoid an additional 4.8 million confirmed coronavirus cases, which translates to about 60 million more infections, as a result of statewide lockdowns and mandated social distancing restrictions, according to the report published in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Nature.

Infections were much higher than confirmed cases, they argued, because many people didn't have access to a coronavirus test or didn't go to their doctors to obtain one. The study documented changes in testing procedures and availability, as well as differences in case detection across the country.

The effect of large-scale anti-contagion policies on the COVID-19 pandemic (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2404-8)

Quote
Abstract

Governments around the world are responding to the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic1 with unprecedented policies designed to slow the growth rate of infections. Many actions, such as closing schools and restricting populations to their homes, impose large and visible costs on society, but their benefits cannot be directly observed and are currently understood only through process-based simulations2Ė4. Here, we compile new data on 1,717 local, regional, and national non-pharmaceutical interventions deployed in the ongoing pandemic across localities in China, South Korea, Italy, Iran, France, and the United States (US). We then apply reduced-form econometric methods, commonly used to measure the effect of policies on economic growth5,6, to empirically evaluate the effect that these anti-contagion policies have had on the growth rate of infections. In the absence of policy actions, we estimate that early infections of COVID-19 exhibit exponential growth rates of roughly 38% per day. We find that anti-contagion policies have significantly and substantially slowed this growth. Some policies have different impacts on different populations, but we obtain consistent evidence that the policy packages now deployed are achieving large, beneficial, and measurable health outcomes. We estimate that across these six countries, interventions prevented or delayed on the order of 62 million confirmed cases, corresponding to averting roughly 530 million total infections. These findings may help inform whether or when these policies should be deployed, intensified, or lifted, and they can support decision-making in the other 180+ countries where COVID-19 has been reported7.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2020, 08:07:34 pm
Dr Henry had to dance around questions regarding large protest gatherings today, one of which mentioned the Prime Minister. What else could she do. This is the unfair position Trudeau has put medical officers in, just so he could have his photo op.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: BC_cheque on June 09, 2020, 08:33:36 pm
In the video his people literally push aside bystanders so they can get their photo-op.

I agree it was a bad look, no matter how good the cause.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 09, 2020, 08:51:29 pm
Btw, thanks to the riots err protests, 70 testing sites in the United States were closed last week.  So not only did protestors possibly cause a spike in cases, thousands of tests were prevented from being completed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on June 09, 2020, 08:56:59 pm
Btw, thanks to the riots err protests, 70 testing sites in the United States were closed last week.  So not only did protestors possibly cause a spike in cases, thousands of tests were prevented from being completed.

Perhaps you don't understand the difference between riots and protesta, but I'll give you a hint, it's been shown that the far right crowd, (you're very familiar with the type I'm sure) who have carried out the bulk of the former.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: BC_cheque on June 09, 2020, 09:15:56 pm
Perhaps you don't understand the difference between riots and protesta, but I'll give you a hint, it's been shown that the far right crowd, (you're very familiar with the type I'm sure) who have carried out the bulk of the former.


We've seen protests AND we've seen looting.

We've seen police beating up protesters AND we've seen police marching with the protesters.

People see what they wanna see.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 09, 2020, 10:08:20 pm
In the video his people literally push aside bystanders so they can get their photo-op.

I agree it was a bad look, no matter how good the cause.

They were pushing the other members of his security out of the way, from what I could tell. I've heard no one call it a bad look until this very moment. He's received nearly universal praise.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 09, 2020, 10:09:24 pm
Dr Henry had to dance around questions regarding large protest gatherings today, one of which mentioned the Prime Minister. What else could she do. This is the unfair position Trudeau has put medical officers in, just so he could have his photo op.

The right to peaceful assembly is protected by the Constitution. The Prime Minister didn't create the events. He simply took part in one, in solidarity with the protesters, offering support and contrition for previous acts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2020, 10:42:48 pm
The right to peaceful assembly is protected by the Constitution. The Prime Minister didn't create the events. He simply took part in one, in solidarity with the protesters, offering support and contrition for previous acts.

Ontario prohibits gatherings of more than 10 people. He was breaking the law FF sake.

This is just another iteration of Mr Dress Up and stunts like this make it impossible for me to take him seriously.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 09, 2020, 11:07:38 pm
Dr Henry had to dance around questions regarding large protest gatherings today, one of which mentioned the Prime Minister. What else could she do. This is the unfair position Trudeau has put medical officers in, just so he could have his photo op.

He's basically effed either way.  If he shows up he'll be criticized for not social distancing, if he doesn't show up he looks like an uncaring entitled stooge chilling at his cottage.

If I were him i'd show up too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2020, 11:17:00 pm
He's basically effed either way.  If he shows up he'll be criticized for not social distancing, if he doesn't show up he looks like an uncaring entitled stooge chilling at his cottage.

If I were him i'd show up too.

How many other world leaders did it? Name one. How many of them are effed because they didn't? This was Trudeau theatre, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 09, 2020, 11:20:16 pm
Ontario prohibits gatherings of more than 10 people. He was breaking the law FF sake.

No, I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Peaceful assembly (protest) is protected by the Charter, and can't be overridden by public health orders that easily.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 09, 2020, 11:20:58 pm
How many other world leaders did it? Name one. How many of them are effed because they didn't? This was Trudeau theatre, plain and simple.

He was praised by people around the world for doing what he did. It was symbolic, but important.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2020, 11:38:24 pm
No, I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Peaceful assembly (protest) is protected by the Charter, and can't be overridden by public health orders that easily.

Sure it can in public emergencies and has been in several provinces. Trudeau himself has that power under the Emergencies Act. Trudeau chose to act against the wishes of every premier and health officer in the country, just for his own ego.

PS And if there is a spike in infections because of these protests, Trudeau better man up and take responsibility for his part in actively encouraging them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 12:10:51 am
No, I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Peaceful assembly (protest) is protected by the Charter, and can't be overridden by public health orders that easily.

Yes it can.  Our govs have broken about a gazillion of our charter rights during this lockdown.  We have freedom of peaceful assembly, for instance.  So banning gatherings of any amount of people is unconstitutional, so is fining people for it.  Banning people from public property, like parks.  We have mobility rights, freedom to leave and enter Canada, freedom to move between provinces etc.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 12:11:41 am
Pretty scary how easily all of our rights can be taken away.  Declare a state of emergency and everything flies out the door.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 12:21:06 am
Sure it can in public emergencies and has been in several provinces. Trudeau himself has that power under the Emergencies Act. Trudeau chose to act against the wishes of every premier and health officer in the country, just for his own ego.

PS And if there is a spike in infections because of these protests, Trudeau better man up and take responsibility for his part in actively encouraging them.

Acts of Parliament don't override the Charter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 12:23:52 am
Yes it can.  Our govs have broken about a gazillion of our charter rights during this lockdown.  We have freedom of peaceful assembly, for instance.  So banning gatherings of any amount of people is unconstitutional, so is fining people for it.  Banning people from public property, like parks.  We have mobility rights, freedom to leave and enter Canada, freedom to move between provinces etc.

None of those rights have been broken during this. You can still enter and leave Canada as a Canadian, for example (with reasonable restrictions). You can still assemble, while observing social distancing rules. I'll also point out that none of the restrictions have been challenged in court on Charter grounds.

On a separate note, does any government want to challenge this type of mass protest in such a way? It would be political suicide, not to mention the fact that it would simply result in a bigger protest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 12:25:28 am
Sure it can in public emergencies and has been in several provinces. Trudeau himself has that power under the Emergencies Act. Trudeau chose to act against the wishes of every premier and health officer in the country, just for his own ego.

So, you feel that Trudeau going to the protest materially changed the situation in terms of it's safety?

You don't legislate away protest like this, sorry. It just makes things worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 12:27:57 am
PS And if there is a spike in infections because of these protests, Trudeau better man up and take responsibility for his part in actively encouraging them.

BTW, you put protest like this to bed by being receptive to the message of it, not by standing against it. That simply creates more protest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 09:00:13 am
BTW, you put protest like this to bed by being receptive to the message of it, not by standing against it. That simply creates more protest.

Trudeauís actions have nothing to do with being receptive, he is cynically using them for his own advantage. He is telling Canadians to ignore the advice of his own health professionals.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 09:06:18 am
So, you feel that Trudeau going to the protest materially changed the situation in terms of it's safety?

You don't legislate away protest like this, sorry. It just makes things worse.

I feel Trudeau doesnít give a crap about safety when it comes to him playing hero. You label anyone who protests a lockdown a covidiot for endangering public safety but when your hero goes out and does the same thing for a different cause, he is setting a good example.

Not one other world leader chose to grandstand and ignore public health directives the way Trudeau did.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 09:07:16 am
Trudeauís actions have nothing to do with being receptive, he is cynically using them for his own advantage. He is telling Canadians to ignore the advice of his own health professionals.

You totally don't understand what's going on. It's the same reason that police officers have been taking a knee, and that Mitt Romney marched with protesters in Washington. Black people have decided that continuing 400 years of racial oppression is more dangerous to them than any virus. It's time that leaders listened.

Your hatred of Trudeau is blinding you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 09:08:09 am
I feel Trudeau doesnít give a crap about safety when it comes to him playing hero. You label anyone who protests a lockdown a covidiot for endangering public safety but when your hero goes out and does the same thing for a different cause, he is setting a good example.

Not one other world leader chose to grandstand and ignore public health directives the way Trudeau did.

I have never - once - used the word covidiot. The protest was going on outside of Trudeau's office. He would have been an idiot not to attend.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 09:11:29 am
I have never - once - used the word covidiot. The protest was going on outside of Trudeau's office. He would have been an idiot not to attend.

Maybe not you but you donít come out supporting their rights either

Jeezus, do you think a prime minister should take part in every protest that takes place outside his office?


Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 09:20:59 am
You totally don't understand what's going on. It's the same reason that police officers have been taking a knee, and that Mitt Romney marched with protesters in Washington. Black people have decided that continuing 400 years of racial oppression is more dangerous to them than any virus. It's time that leaders listened.

Your hatred of Trudeau is blinding you.

You donít have to take physical part in something to support it. I donít hate Trudeau or anyone else, I just canít take him seriously when he does this kind of ****. You are no different than Trumpís followers in your inability to be critical of anything he does regardless of what it is.

Mitt Romney is not the head of government and these protests are over things that  happened in his country. Trudeau is just jumping on the band wagon and using them for his own purposes. These protests arenít all about him.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 01:11:32 pm
You donít have to take physical part in something to support it. I donít hate Trudeau or anyone else, I just canít take him seriously when he does this kind of ****. You are no different than Trumpís followers in your inability to be critical of anything he does regardless of what it is.

Mitt Romney is not the head of government and these protests are over things that  happened in his country. Trudeau is just jumping on the band wagon and using them for his own purposes. These protests arenít all about him.

Black people in Canada are protesting systemic racism in Canada. Yes, an event in the US was a catalyst. That doesn't make it any less Justin Trudeau's problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 02:20:52 pm
None of those rights have been broken during this. You can still enter and leave Canada as a Canadian, for example (with reasonable restrictions). You can still assemble, while observing social distancing rules. I'll also point out that none of the restrictions have been challenged in court on Charter grounds

This is obviously incorrect.  Provinces have banned gatherings of X amount of people. That very clearly goes against the Charter.  That's why they've declared a state of emergency.

When Justin went to the protest he broke the law.  But you'll never admit that, because you're biased.  So whatever.  Apparently breaking the law is fine as long as the virtue is high enough.  Never waste a good photo op.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 02:32:12 pm
This is obviously incorrect.  Provinces have banned gatherings of X amount of people. That very clearly goes against the Charter.  That's why they've declared a state of emergency.

Like I said, that hasn't been challenged in court. It's actually unclear if those laws are constitutional.

Quote
When Justin went to the protest he broke the law.  But you'll never admit that, because you're biased.  So whatever.  Apparently breaking the law is fine as long as the virtue is high enough.  Never waste a good photo op.

He broke the law. It isn't the important point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 02:42:55 pm
Like I said, that hasn't been challenged in court. It's actually unclear if those laws are constitutional.

The charter says we have right to peaceful assembly.  Provinces have banned peaceful assembly.  It's pretty clear this goes against the Charter.

If a gov declares a state of emergency, ie: the Emergencies Act, they are doing so to suspend civil liberties in order to respond to a crisis.  It's a legit crisis, i don't have a problem with it.

People are filing Charter challenges in court.  https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/civil-liberties-group-filing-charter-challenge-over-newfoundlands-ban-on-travel-into-province
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 02:46:43 pm
Here's the thing - the Charter says this:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

That means that it's not as simple as 'Trudeau broke the law.' Did he? I don't know. You don't know. Is a protest of the very rules meant to keep us safe from the pandemic reasonable? Probably not. Is a protest against 400 years of racial oppression reasonable? Probably. It's not that simple. You know it's not that simple.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 02:55:49 pm
Black people in Canada are protesting systemic racism in Canada. Yes, an event in the US was a catalyst. That doesn't make it any less Justin Trudeau's problem.

It's everyones problem, Justin doesn't own it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 03:00:33 pm
Here's the thing - the Charter says this:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

That means that it's not as simple as 'Trudeau broke the law.' Did he? I don't know. You don't know. Is a protest of the very rules meant to keep us safe from the pandemic reasonable? Probably not. Is a protest against 400 years of racial oppression reasonable? Probably. It's not that simple. You know it's not that simple.

Of course he broke it. If he disagrees with a law, protest it in the courts. He is a prime minister of a country who is supposed to make laws and uphold its institutions, not a social activist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 03:12:25 pm
Of course he broke it. If he disagrees with a law, protest it in the courts. He is a prime minister of a country who is supposed to make laws and uphold its institutions, not a social activist.

He's supposed to be the Prime Minister for everyone, including those who feel disenfranchised by systemic racism. You have no concept of the symbolism of him being there of taking a knee.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 03:13:00 pm
It's everyones problem, Justin doesn't own it.

Like you just pointed out, he's the Prime Minister. That makes it uniquely his problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: cybercoma on June 10, 2020, 03:39:15 pm
Acts of Parliament don't override the Charter.
Itís amazing how people donít even understand this fundamental point. This is literally the key to our legal and political system; yet, idiots are arguing as if primary law takes a back seat to secondary laws.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 03:59:29 pm
Like you just pointed out, he's the Prime Minister. That makes it uniquely his problem.

Racism is everyones problem, his job is to act like a head of government and respect the laws of the country, province and city he happens to be in.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 04:00:57 pm
Itís amazing how people donít even understand this fundamental point. This is literally the key to our legal and political system; yet, idiots are arguing as if primary law takes a back seat to secondary laws.

We decide these things in the courts, not on the street. Particularly if you are a head of government.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 04:03:15 pm
He's supposed to be the Prime Minister for everyone, including those who feel disenfranchised by systemic racism. You have no concept of the symbolism of him being there of taking a knee.

Well he isn't being prime minister for everyone when he jumps on bandwagons and starts attending protest demonstrations. He needs to make up his mind, does he want to be a head of government or a social activist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: the_squid on June 10, 2020, 06:44:53 pm
Itís amazing how people donít even understand this fundamental point. This is literally the key to our legal and political system; yet, idiots are arguing as if primary law takes a back seat to secondary laws.

Well yeah...  any law would have to fall within the "reasonable and justified" clause in the Constitution.  And laws that wouldn't normally be reasonable in normal times certainly could be considered reasonable during a pandemic.  Things like limiting groups to 10 people, not allowing stores to open, not allowing churches to have people in them, etc. would not be allowed in normal circumstances, but are likely reasonable restrictions in a pandemic.

Clearly Trudeau and the protestors were breaking Ontario law...  they could challenge it in court and possibly win, if the Ontario emergency powers were deemed unconstitutional.

Personally, I think he was a bit damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in this situation.

I also don't think protestors should be let go while a guy in Calgary was fined in the thousands for having a soccer camp for some kids in a park.  But there was no way cops were going to break up these protest.  They'd be  seen as racists, not protecting public health. 

It makes the entire public health response to COVID a bit of a lark when it seems that if you have a good cause, then you can break the restrictions.  If you don't, you get fined.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 07:47:27 pm
Damned if he doesn't by who? Would you rather be damned for breaking the law or obeying it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 10, 2020, 07:48:13 pm
Remember when funerals were prohibited?  It was too risky!  But George Floyd can have 3 funerals, packed with people!  So if youíre keeping score at home, protesting was irresponsible, until it was for a progressive approved reason.  Then funerals were prohibited, until it was for a progressive approved person.  Then it doesnít matter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 10, 2020, 07:49:45 pm
Of course he broke it. If he disagrees with a law, protest it in the courts. He is a prime minister of a country who is supposed to make laws and uphold its institutions, not a social activist.
Thereís 2 sets of standards.  One for woke politics and one for everybody else.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on June 10, 2020, 07:51:11 pm
If you want to go to church, too bad.  If you want to burn a church, no problem.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 08:10:21 pm
That means that it's not as simple as 'Trudeau broke the law.' Did he? I don't know. You don't know. Is a protest of the very rules meant to keep us safe from the pandemic reasonable? Probably not. Is a protest against 400 years of racial oppression reasonable? Probably. It's not that simple. You know it's not that simple.

Ontario banned gatherings of more than 2, now i think it's 10.  Trudeau keeps breaking the lockdown restrictions.  First to visit his fam over Easter, now to protest for Floyd.  The guy is an entitled asshat who thinks he's above the law.  Do as I say not as I do.

I still have my receipt from Walmart from March 2nd when I went and bought a ton of COVID supplies to prepare.  Meanwhile Justin's wife flew overseas for We Day in the UK on March 4th.  These people are entitled asshats and out of touch with reality.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 08:34:12 pm
Remember when funerals were prohibited?  It was too risky!  But George Floyd can have 3 funerals, packed with people!  So if youíre keeping score at home, protesting was irresponsible, until it was for a progressive approved reason.  Then funerals were prohibited, until it was for a progressive approved person.  Then it doesnít matter.

Many, many people have been dying from COVID but unable to have any family visit or around their death bed for safety reasons.  But this stuff is ok?

The right is filled with completely ignorant racists and the left is filled with entitled holier-than-thou whiners.  This is the 21st century, enjoy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 08:35:42 pm
Damned if he doesn't by who? Would you rather be damned for breaking the law or obeying it?

But it's true.  People will whine that he wasn't there, probably call him a racist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 08:48:04 pm
But it's true.  People will whine that he wasn't there, probably call him a racist.

So what. Label someone a racist and you get anything you want. Welcome to the 21st century.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 08:49:56 pm
CERB buys gang bangers new McLarens and Lambos.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cerb-pandemic-opioid-addiction-overdose-1.5606188

Oh, and kills people too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 09:00:12 pm
Ontario banned gatherings of more than 2, now i think it's 10.  Trudeau keeps breaking the lockdown restrictions.  First to visit his fam over Easter, now to protest for Floyd.  The guy is an entitled asshat who thinks he's above the law.  Do as I say not as I do.

I still have my receipt from Walmart from March 2nd when I went and bought a ton of COVID supplies to prepare.  Meanwhile Justin's wife flew overseas for We Day in the UK on March 4th.  These people are entitled asshats and out of touch with reality.

 ::)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 10, 2020, 09:12:17 pm
So what. Label someone a racist and you get anything you want. Welcome to the 21st century.

Well, some of you really seemed to be worked up about people of colour wanting a fairer world. Too bad, I guess.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 09:20:50 pm
Well, some of you really seemed to be worked up about people of colour wanting a fairer world. Too bad, I guess.

Too bad there isn't an emoji for pathetic.
But hey, you just made my point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 10:22:37 pm
CERB buys gang bangers new McLarens and Lambos.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cerb-pandemic-opioid-addiction-overdose-1.5606188

Oh, and kills people too.

In other words, people need money to buy drugs.  They also need it to buy food.  If you're stupid enough to try an illegal narcotic you deserve your fate.  It's nobody's fault but yours.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2020, 10:27:38 pm
In other words, people need money to buy drugs.  They also need it to buy food.  If you're stupid enough to try an illegal narcotic you deserve your fate.  It's nobody's fault but yours.

Basically it is government buying alcoholics free drinks and donating to organized crime at the same time. Unintended but reality.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 10, 2020, 10:28:26 pm
I'm pretty sure i got COVID about a month ago.  I felt really weak, it was really weird, then it went away after 2-3 days.  Then a week later someone else in my household had the same thing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: eyeball on June 10, 2020, 10:54:05 pm
BTW, you put protest like this to bed by being receptive to the message of it, not by standing against it. That simply creates more protest.
Makes you wonder where this big right-wing backlash everyone talks about got too. Is what we're seeing now what they had in mind or are they expecting some populist they elect will just act out their fantasies for them?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Rue on June 11, 2020, 12:59:34 pm
I'm pretty sure i got COVID about a month ago.  I felt really weak, it was really weird, then it went away after 2-3 days.  Then a week later someone else in my household had the same thing.

I think for the same reasons you do I have have gotbit lastcChridtmas from my nephew from New York. I never get the flu and bam two daysvofbit then hone, then my wife. My whole family got it that fast too.

I wonder too. I am 64.  Guess we will not know.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Rue on June 11, 2020, 01:06:47 pm
I'm pretty sure i got COVID about a month ago.  I felt really weak, it was really weird, then it went away after 2-3 days.  Then a week later someone else in my household had the same thing.

Yah I feel that way too cuz I got sick last Christmas from a flu brought by my nephew from New York and I have had the flu once in my life. Lots of colds no flus. So I wonder too. A lot of us are.

As for the person whonreliedcdumb to your post how about he show himself and explain why what you said is something to belittle.

There are some real prize assholes on this  forum.



Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 11, 2020, 01:34:55 pm
There are some real prize assholes on this  forum.

You can always quite posting here. I'm going to.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 11, 2020, 03:44:58 pm
Yah I feel that way too cuz I got sick last Christmas from a flu brought by my nephew from New York and I have had the flu once in my life. Lots of colds no flus. So I wonder too. A lot of us are.

As for the person whonreliedcdumb to your post how about he show himself and explain why what you said is something to belittle.

There are some real prize assholes on this  forum.

My friend living in NYC got COVID a few months ago.  They said it felt like a bad flu.  They're pretty young.  Their spouse got it too but had zero symptoms, only found out they had got it via testing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on June 11, 2020, 08:53:06 pm
You can always quite posting here. I'm going to.
Quite right. Unless you mean quit. Then how come?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: JMT on June 11, 2020, 09:24:38 pm
Quite right. Unless you mean quit. Then how come?

Ahh, I make a lot of idle threats.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on September 29, 2020, 07:26:38 pm
Well well well

Vilified Early Over Lax Virus Strategy, Sweden Seems to Have Scourge Controlled

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/world/europe/sweden-coronavirus-strategy.amp.html
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on September 29, 2020, 08:48:56 pm
Sweden asked its people to do the same things we were asked to do. Maybe they are better listeners. In spite of that, Swedens economy was hit worse than all the other Scandinavian countries.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Shady on October 01, 2020, 12:57:11 pm
Complete nonsense.   Sweden had it right from the start and it's time to admit it.  Mitigation without a shutdown.

https://fee.org/articles/bbc-sweden-s-economy-is-doing-way-better-than-the-rest-of-the-eu-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 01, 2020, 01:12:09 pm
Sweden has 10 million people. Finland and Norway combined have 10 million people.
6000 people are dead of Covid in Sweden and many thousands more are sick and suffering.
About 600 people died of covid in Finland/Norway. Not only did their actions save thousands of lives, but they saved money in health care and they are better positioned to continue their recovery with the virus being better contained.

Only a Canadian Trumper would look at a death rate being 10x higher and say that's a better outcome.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Omni on October 01, 2020, 03:51:10 pm
Sweden has 10 million people. Finland and Norway combined have 10 million people.
6000 people are dead of Covid in Sweden and many thousands more are sick and suffering.
About 600 people died of covid in Finland/Norway. Not only did their actions save thousands of lives, but they saved money in health care and they are better positioned to continue their recovery with the virus being better contained.

Only a Canadian Trumper would look at a death rate being 10x higher and say that's a better outcome.

I am happy to say I have confidence that Canadians have the good sense to adapt as necessary to avoid an outbreak ov Covid here such as they have in the US, and certainly to keep the "Canadian Trumper" bs completely in the doldrums.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: Bubbermiley on October 01, 2020, 04:04:37 pm
Even if you don't care about the extremely high number of infections and the chaos that generates and you are only concerned with the economy, in Q2, Swedenís GDP contracted by 8.6%.

https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subject-area/national-accounts/national-accounts/national-accounts-quarterly-and-annual-estimates/pong/statistical-news/national-accounts-second-quarter-2020/


Norwayís fell by 7.4%.

https://www.ssb.no/en/knr

 

Finlandís fell by 3.2%.

https://www.stat.fi/til/ktkk/2020/06/ktkk_2020_06_2020-08-14_tie_001_en.html

So a worse economic result and 10x the infection and death. Time to spike the football. That won't make you look like an idiot.  :D

 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: wilber on October 01, 2020, 04:10:50 pm
Denmark also 7.4%.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Science (facts donít care about your feelings)
Post by: waldo on October 02, 2020, 09:20:31 am
Complete nonsense.   Sweden had it right from the start and it's time to admit it.  Mitigation without a shutdown.

Sweden's COVID Policy Didn't Create Herd Immunity (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200813/swedens-no-lockdown-policy-didnt-achieve-herd-immunity)

Quote
THURSDAY, Aug. 13, 2020 (HealthDay News) -- Diverging from much of the world, Sweden let COVID-19 spread in hopes the population would develop "herd immunity." But the risky strategy failed, a new report finds.

Rather than imposing a hard lockdown in March as other countries did, the Scandinavian nation relied on individual responsibility to stop the spread of the deadly coronavirus. This is the idea of "folkvett" -- common sense of the people -- and the approach made headlines at the time.

Gyms, stores and restaurants remained open; schools were open for kids up to age 16; while gatherings of more than 50 people were banned.

Authorities predicted that 40% of the people in Stockholm would get the disease and develop protective antibodies by May. The actual prevalence, however, was around 15%, according to the study published Aug. 11 in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine.

"It is clear that not only are the rates of viral infection, hospitalization and mortality [per million population] much higher than those seen in neighboring Scandinavian countries, but also that the time-course of the epidemic in Sweden is different, with continued persistence of higher infection and mortality well beyond the few critical weeks period seen in Denmark, Finland and Norway," said researcher Dr. David Goldsmith, a retired physician in London.