Canadian Political Events

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: kimmy on February 11, 2020, 09:20:33 pm

Title: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 11, 2020, 09:20:33 pm
This thread is located on the traditional cyber-territory of the For'o'for Cyber-Nation!   I wish a hearty siha-siha muckachuck to our For'o'for friends!


Now that young Coonlight Graham has returned from re-education camp and has become Progressive Graham, I thought it would be helpful to have a progressive thread, so that we can all share our feelings and experiences in a safe space.  Practice our territory acknowledgements, practice pronoun checks, and that sort of thing. Sound good?  I thought so.

I'll start.  I'm Kimmy (pronouns kimza/kimza) and I identify as kim-gendered. Please respect my pronouns!  I want to spend a moment talking about my white privilege, which includes looking really pasty when I go to the beach, as well as getting sunburned quite easily.  I'm also a cultural appropriator. I eat Mexican food every week, prepared by the labor of the hard-working, underappreciated Salvadoran women at a local restaurant.  I feel bad about this, but also good, because I love tacos.

Feel free to join in!  What are you feeling guilty about today?  Share your feelings, this is a non-judgmental place. Also, please snap your fingers or do jazz-hands rather than clapping, as some members may be triggered by loud noises.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 11, 2020, 09:34:44 pm
I am now MAGA Graham.

Make America Graham Again.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 11, 2020, 09:38:25 pm
I went to Eastside Mario's and it's not very Italian at all.  Cultural appropriation.

They served sliders.  Italians don't serve mini-hamburgers.  If you want an appetizer you should be eating a plate of prosciutto and bocconcini
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2020, 09:47:27 pm
Why do Greeks own all the pizza joints?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 11, 2020, 10:04:04 pm
If my thoughts and feelings don’t conform with SJW values, will I be drowned out by loud shrill screeching?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2020, 10:53:29 pm
Pronouns give me gas.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 12, 2020, 07:24:08 am
If my thoughts and feelings don’t conform with SJW values, will I be drowned out by loud shrill screeching?

No.  Anyway how would they know your thoughts?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 12, 2020, 07:46:07 am
This thread is located on the traditional cyber-territory of the For'o'for Cyber-Nation!   I wish a hearty siha-siha muckachuck to our For'o'for friends!


Now that young Coonlight Graham has returned from re-education camp and has become Progressive Graham, I thought it would be helpful to have a progressive thread, so that we can all share our feelings and experiences in a safe space.  Practice our territory acknowledgements, practice pronoun checks, and that sort of thing. Sound good?  I thought so.

I'll start.  I'm Kimmy (pronouns kimza/kimza) and I identify as kim-gendered. Please respect my pronouns!  I want to spend a moment talking about my white privilege, which includes looking really pasty when I go to the beach, as well as getting sunburned quite easily.  I'm also a cultural appropriator. I eat Mexican food every week, prepared by the labor of the hard-working, underappreciated Salvadoran women at a local restaurant.  I feel bad about this, but also good, because I love tacos.

Feel free to join in!  What are you feeling guilty about today?  Share your feelings, this is a non-judgmental place. Also, please snap your fingers or do jazz-hands rather than clapping, as some members may be triggered by loud noises.

 -k
Why do I get the feeling you don't find humour in progressive causes you actually care about?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 09:11:35 am
Why do I get the feeling you don't find humour in progressive causes you actually care about?

Progressives can be pretty humourless.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 12, 2020, 09:29:35 am
Why do I get the feeling you don't find humour in progressive causes you actually care about?

Few do.

Well, I DO because I'm perfect.  But most people have a behavioural and moral switch they do when things are turned around on them.

How else do you explain the same people who coined the term 'snowflakes' inventing the war on Christmas ?   ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: ?Impact on February 12, 2020, 02:16:23 pm
I want to spend a moment talking about my white privilege, which includes looking really pasty when I go to the beach, as well as getting sunburned quite easily.

What [natural] color is your hair?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 25, 2020, 11:22:03 pm
What [natural] color is your hair?

That's an excellent question!  I was ABAB (assigned blonde at birth) but now I choose to identify as non-brunette (NB, or "enby").

Identifying as NB lets people know that the stereotypes they hold about other blondes do not apply to me! I can simply educate them by explaining that I identify as non-brunette, and they will realize that their assumptions are not applicable to me.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on February 27, 2020, 12:11:07 am

Feel free to join in!  What are you feeling guilty about today?  Share your feelings, this is a non-judgmental place. Also, please snap your fingers or do jazz-hands rather than clapping, as some members may be triggered by loud noises.

 -k
I feel more victimized than guilty. I was raised in Ontario by liberals where they forced me to go to free-school.  I thought I'd managed to bury the memories but they've been flooding back lately. I'm pretty sure Mrs Buck was actually a man.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 27, 2020, 11:28:57 am
I feel more victimized than guilty. I was raised in Ontario by liberals where they forced me to go to free-school.  I thought I'd managed to bury the memories but they've been flooding back lately. I'm pretty sure Mrs Buck was actually a man.

Wait.

This is the BC fishing boat guy ?!?

You were raised in Ontario ?  Did I know this ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 28, 2020, 01:45:50 am
I feel more victimized than guilty. I was raised in Ontario by liberals where they forced me to go to free-school.  I thought I'd managed to bury the memories but they've been flooding back lately. I'm pretty sure Mrs Buck was actually a man.

Thanks for sharing, eyeball!  Your feelings are valid!

A public school education is nothing to be ashamed of!  Many of Canada's great minds attended public schools! Notable examples include former PM Stephen Harper as well as yours truly!

Regarding Mrs Buck, please remember that trans women are women! Mrs Buck is a woman, even if she did have a dong. Perhaps, now that you are old enough to understand, you should reach out to Mrs Buck and let her know that you've worked through your transphobia. She would probably love to hear from her former students! She would be very proud to know that she helped you become the man you are today.

We love you, eyeball!

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2020, 02:32:22 pm
Many of Canada's great minds attended public schools! Notable examples include former PM Stephen Harper as well as yours truly!

Humility is your forté.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2020, 03:48:23 pm
Humility is your forté.

Not sure if I would include Harper in the group of "great minds". Public school bully would be more appropriate.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 28, 2020, 08:07:11 pm
Not sure if I would include Harper in the group of "great minds". Public school bully would be more appropriate.

PET and Chretien both had a bully streak in them. Whether it is good or bad depends on your point of view.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2020, 08:23:10 pm
PET and Chretien both had a bully streak in them. Whether it is good or bad depends on your point of view.

Yeah the "little guy from Shawinigan" could throw his weight around. PET was certainly the one with the highest intellectual pedigree. Harper was of course smart but he acted about as close to an autocrat as we've had in modern times. Perhaps it was to do with his lack of legal training/background.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 29, 2020, 05:54:13 pm
Should we have a law banning hurting other people's feelings? 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 29, 2020, 06:32:16 pm
No, we should add the Nword to the national anthem.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 29, 2020, 07:01:44 pm
Yeah the "little guy from Shawinigan" could throw his weight around. PET was certainly the one with the highest intellectual pedigree. Harper was of course smart but he acted about as close to an autocrat as we've had in modern times. Perhaps it was to do with his lack of legal training/background.

Harper never enacted the War Measures Act.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-trudeau-familys-love-of-tyrants/
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: ?Impact on March 01, 2020, 01:22:16 pm
Harper never enacted the War Measures Act.

No, he arrested 1000 people in the streets of Toronto while spending a billion dollars on a last minute party for 18 of his crony buddies.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2020, 01:58:48 pm
No, he arrested 1000 people in the streets of Toronto while spending a billion dollars on a last minute party for 18 of his crony buddies.

Well that did earn the city the name "Torontonamo Bay" and resulted in at least two lawsuits against TO police, but hey, we did get a few million bucks worth of gazebos!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on March 13, 2020, 12:28:11 pm
Not sure if I would include Harper in the group of "great minds". Public school bully would be more appropriate.

Thanks for sharing, Omni.  This is a supportive community! We are here for you.

The most important thing to remember is: it gets better!  Things might seem hopeless right now, but you can make it through this if you don't give up.

There's no one reason why bullying happens. Every story is different. Many bullies push other people down because it makes them feel powerful and important. Others might feel threatened or insecure, or perhaps jealous of you. Others might be prejudiced against others. You might wonder why you've been singled out.  There's no one answer... it could be any number of reasons, and none of them are justified. You're not being bullied because there's anything wrong with you.

Don't be afraid to talk to the grown-ups in your life about this situation.  Talk to your parents or a teacher you trust. Or your scout troop leader, or your soccer coach. You don't have to be ashamed to ask for help.

There are lots of resources that you can look to for help. https://www.bullyingcanada.ca/

 Don't let anyone make you feel that you're not valuable.   You are valued. You are special. You have a great life ahead of you. Stay strong.

(https://i.imgur.com/m4Myy7h.jpg)


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 12:49:42 pm
Thanks for sharing, Omni.  This is a supportive community! We are here for you.

The most important thing to remember is: it gets better!  Things might seem hopeless right now, but you can make it through this if you don't give up.

There's no one reason why bullying happens. Every story is different. Many bullies push other people down because it makes them feel powerful and important. Others might feel threatened or insecure, or perhaps jealous of you. Others might be prejudiced against others. You might wonder why you've been singled out.  There's no one answer... it could be any number of reasons, and none of them are justified. You're not being bullied because there's anything wrong with you.

Don't be afraid to talk to the grown-ups in your life about this situation.  Talk to your parents or a teacher you trust. Or your scout troop leader, or your soccer coach. You don't have to be ashamed to ask for help.

There are lots of resources that you can look to for help. https://www.bullyingcanada.ca/

 Don't let anyone make you feel that you're not valuable.   You are valued. You are special. You have a great life ahead of you. Stay strong.

(https://i.imgur.com/m4Myy7h.jpg)


 -k

Feeling a little down today are we? I'm sure you could google up a little bedtime story from Harper to cheer things up.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on March 13, 2020, 03:02:10 pm
 ???

what just happened ?

Is this DEEP SARCASM because you young'ns don't even know.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on March 13, 2020, 04:36:05 pm
Thanks for sharing, Omni. 


First post in the last thousand that he didn’t mention Trump at least....   
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 04:50:34 pm

First post in the last thousand that he didn’t mention Trump at least....

Have I stepped on your toes trashing trump?  ;D
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 06:50:39 pm
Progressives now have #RIPJKRowling trending on Twitter.

Woke people are scum.   Woke people are dog crap.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 06:58:56 pm
After months of being pressured to add her "pronouns" to her Twitter bio, actress and former MMA fighter Gina Carano has acquiesced to the woke mob, and added her pronouns. Her pronouns are.... "beep/boop".

Here's how that went over:

(https://i.imgur.com/TbVFA48.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/1yGEhng.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/nhxitrp.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 07:01:29 pm
For the record I think Gina Carano is a goddess and I would have her children if it were biologically possible.  But it isn't, regardless of how I choose to identify.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 07:11:43 pm
These "wanted" posters were found at the BLM protests in Toronto earlier this summer.  Misogyny is a-ok with progressive people... provided it's directed at the right target.

(https://i.imgur.com/tRnDl6x.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 14, 2020, 07:37:24 pm
Progressives now have #RIPJKRowling trending on Twitter.

Woke people are scum.   Woke people are dog crap.

 -k

Because she believes in transgender rights but that biological sex is not changeable.  Scandalous!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 14, 2020, 07:45:17 pm
Imagine being so disgusting of a human being as to believe that a transwoman and a woman are 2 different things.

Imagine how disgusting it would be to not have transwomen bashing the heads in of women in the same ring in the UFC.  Imagine a man bashing in the head of a transman.  Imagine the nerve of the UFC possibly creating 2 separate categories for them.

Imagine requesting a woman to be your gynecologist and getting a transwoman and you can't refuse cuz transphobia.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 14, 2020, 08:41:36 pm
Why is it news that mobs exist though ?

There are lots of idiots about, I have noticed... 

We don't tweet about the MAGA bunch much here either.  Because it's boring to be outraged all the time...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 14, 2020, 11:40:27 pm
After months of being pressured to add her "pronouns" to her Twitter bio, actress and former MMA fighter Gina Carano has acquiesced to the woke mob, and added her pronouns. Her pronouns are.... "beep/boop".

Here's how that went over:

 -k

I didn't know who she was, but I googled.  She is also a COVIDIOT and anti-BLM.  I didn't find anything about months of being pressured into anything, just that she was being deliberately antagonizing with the beep/boop which isn't all that surprising for a COVIDIOT/anti-BLM.

From what I'm getting, I think the anger goes beyond the pronouns. 

Meh, but hey she got people like me googling who she is, so I guess any publicity is good publicity.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 09:57:32 am
One thing all zealots have in common, they believe the end justifies the means. They will use tactics that they would condemn in anyone else because their cause is sacred

Demanding someone do something to show their support for you is just simple coercion. 

Three cheers for people like Rowling and Carano for having the guts to stand up to these bullies.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 10:40:14 am

Three cheers for people like Rowling and Carano for having the guts to stand up to these bullies.

Nothing you have said here justifies Rowling's position.

Basically you have said "bullies oppose her - good for her for resisting them" ... but the subject itself is not referenced.  That's the problem with tribalism in politics today.  The objectivity of the facts are absolutely not part of the discussion.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 11:30:20 am
Nothing you have said here justifies Rowling's position.

Basically you have said "bullies oppose her - good for her for resisting them" ... but the subject itself is not referenced.  That's the problem with tribalism in politics today.  The objectivity of the facts are absolutely not part of the discussion.

After reading Rowling's essay, I couldn't disagree more.

I do agree that tribalism kills objectivity.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 12:47:59 pm
After reading Rowling's essay, I couldn't disagree more.

I do agree that tribalism kills objectivity.

You disagree that you didn't post any substance ?

Fine then - where was it ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 01:45:06 pm
You disagree that you didn't post any substance ?

Fine then - where was it ?

The substance is in her essay.

I don't understand where you are coming from.

BC Cheque is one of the most open minded people in this place yet she has said she won't express support for Rowling on Twitter or even post a like because she isn't prepared to put up with the abuse that will follow. You seem to blow that off as inconsequential.

What is your problem with biological women sticking up for themselves and each other?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 01:54:12 pm
The substance is in her essay.

Ok ... you said you couldn't disagree more with me, and yet I didn't say anything about her essay.

I said that you just applauded her, by saying there were some unruly people against her... but that's true of any position.

Quote

BC Cheque is one of the most open minded people in this place yet she has said she won't express support for Rowling on Twitter or even post a like because she isn't prepared to put up with the abuse that will follow. You seem to blow that off as inconsequential.

It's two questions:

1. Is there a progressive mob that is unruly, irrational, unfair, abusive and so on ?
2. Is JK Rowling's argument sound ?

The answer to 1 is 'definitely'
The answer to 2 is 'maybe' but it has nothing to do with #1. 

Quote
What is your problem with biological women sticking up for themselves and each other?

Most of JK's essay, at least at the top, is about crazy people harassing her.   It has nothing to do with #2.  She has some good ideas, that should lead to a good debate.  It's hard to do because of #1.  She also has some bad ideas, like people should be able to write whatever they want without consequence.

My opinions only...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 02:13:26 pm
Quote
Most of JK's essay, at least at the top, is about crazy people harassing her.   It has nothing to do with #2.  She has some good ideas, that should lead to a good debate.  It's hard to do because of #1.  She also has some bad ideas, like people should be able to write whatever they want without consequence.

They can't though, can they. Anyone who doesn't toe the line gets silenced. Brutally if necessary. We are even seeing it in our universities.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 02:29:11 pm
1. They can't though, can they.
2. Anyone who doesn't toe the line gets silenced.
3. Brutally if necessary. We are even seeing it in our universities.
1. No they can't
2. I wouldn't agree with your characterization.  People who make extreme statements get stigmatized in society, not much to be said about that.
3. There are some efforts to extinguish free discussion, I agree, but not clear to me if this registers as a serious problem or not.  ie. if the scale of this warrants a general concern

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 02:40:09 pm
Three cheers for people like Rowling and Carano for having the guts to stand up to these bullies.

Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer.  She seems pretty bent on villainizing transwomen and othering them. 

I still love her and agree with her about some of the points she has raised, but I can no longer support that her agenda is just about feminism.

As for Carano, I don't put my pronouns in any of my bios but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people either and then play victim.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 02:48:11 pm
BC Cheque is one of the most open minded people in this place yet she has said she won't express support for Rowling on Twitter or even post a like because she isn't prepared to put up with the abuse that will follow. You seem to blow that off as inconsequential.


Actually, that proves MH's point about twitter and mob mentality.

I was also reluctant to express my views that Nancy Pelosi should've worn a mask at the hair salon because I was attacked for it.  People said I'm acting like she killed a baby with her bare hands.   ::)

I am also reluctant to express my views on Israel because I get branded an anti-semite.

I can be myself on this forum but lots of other places it's not worth the hassle.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 02:54:34 pm
Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer.  She seems pretty bent on villainizing transwomen and othering them. 

I still love her and agree with her about some of the points she has raised, but I can no longer support that her agenda is just about feminism.

As for Carano, I don't put my pronouns in any of my bios but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people either and then play victim.

And so was Silence of the Lambs.  I don't think any character should be taboo.  Now no one can ever write about black, gay or transgender serial killers because.... they're discriminated against in real life?  hmmm...   that's just wrong.  Don't you ever draw a cartoon of Mohammed...

Maybe with JK, once you tell her she can't write something, she's going to tell you to piss off.  A gay Dumbledore (sp?) is an example, I think.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:06:24 pm
1. Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer.  She seems pretty bent on villainizing transwomen and othering them. 

2. I still love her and agree with her about some of the points she has raised, but I can no longer support that her agenda is just about feminism.

3. As for Carano, I don't put my pronouns in any of my bios but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people either and then play victim.
1. Yes, it's hard to figure out what she's driving for.
2. I would still read her.  There are lots of great artists who are problematic.
3. There's a climate denier who publishes in the National Post, who owns a chic coffee shop in the student area.  Lots of people point out what the owner is all about, and it has nothing to do with the coffee.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:07:40 pm
And so was Silence of the Lambs.  I don't think any character should be taboo.  Now no one can ever write about black, gay or transgender serial killers because.... they're discriminated against in real life?  hmmm...   that's just wrong.  Don't you ever draw a cartoon of Mohammed...

Maybe with JK, once you tell her she can't write something, she's going to tell you to **** off.  A gay Dumbledore (sp?) is an example, I think.


She and all other authors are free to do write whatever they like.  Hey, I'm middle-eastern, have you ever seen any of us depicted nicely in movies or books?  I'm quite used to it.

However, my point is that my beliefs about Rowling evolved when I read about her depiction of her character.  I used to think she's about traditional feminism but I have to now agree that she does appear specifically anti-trans (and not just about protecting the sanctity of traditional feminism).
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 03:14:53 pm
1. No they can't


We agree on that

Quote
2. I wouldn't agree with your characterization.  People who make extreme statements get stigmatized in society, not much to be said about that.



None of those Twitter abusers use their own names? There is nothing to stigmatize or hold them accountable for their extreme statements. I'm with anyone who stands up to people like that. I don't have to agree with them.




Quote
3. There are some efforts to extinguish free discussion, I agree, but not clear to me if this registers as a serious problem or not.  ie. if the scale of this warrants a general concern

I think it does.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 03:18:20 pm

She and all other authors are free to do write whatever they like. 

But they aren't. It isn't enough to be critical or disagree, they must be cancelled, fired, extinguished, whatever.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:18:54 pm

1. None of those Twitter abusers use their own names? 

2. I think it does.

1. No.  They hide behind their handles when posting objectionable things.  Maya Forstater didn't, though.  So she got fired.
2. Why ?  Is there any way to characterize the scale of what is happening, objectively ?  Or is this the kind of thing where if it happens one single time it should be front page news ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:20:21 pm
But they aren't. It isn't enough to be critical or disagree, they must be cancelled, fired, extinguished, whatever.

People are cancelled all the time.  And people get upset with it, too.  It doesn't usually change things.

Is there some idea that right-leaning views are cancelled more than left-leaning ones ?  How can we substantiate that objectively ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:25:53 pm
But they aren't. It isn't enough to be critical or disagree, they must be cancelled, fired, extinguished, whatever.

This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:31:05 pm
3. There's a climate denier who publishes in the National Post, who owns a chic coffee shop in the student area.  Lots of people point out what the owner is all about, and it has nothing to do with the coffee.

Even though I grappled with it initially, I cancelled my COVIDIOT hairdresser even though she is good at what she does.  I don't want to give my money to someone I believe is doing harm in society.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:33:57 pm
Even though I grappled with it initially, I cancelled my COVIDIOT hairdresser even though she is good at what she does.  I don't want to give my money to someone I believe is doing harm in society.

Boycotts are a tough one.   You can't think too much about it, or you would seriously boycott everything.

As I like to say... even the unabomber went into town for nails from time to time.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 03:37:31 pm
This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.

No one is saying everyone should read her books.  What the mob wants is for her not to be allowed to write her books because they don't like her views.  Or they don't want her to be allowed to speak/twitter or whatever.   HUGE difference. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 03:38:58 pm

Is there some idea that right-leaning views are cancelled more than left-leaning ones ? 

First, your contention that Rowling's views are right-wing is pretty asinine.

Second, can you name any left-leaning speakers who have been canceled?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:42:30 pm
Boycotts are a tough one.   You can't think too much about it, or you would seriously boycott everything.

As I like to say... even the unabomber went into town for nails from time to time.

It depends.  I wouldn't boycott a fiscal conservative because I know it's just a difference of opinion.

Climate change deniers and COVIDIOTS harm society, IMO, so no I can't support them in any way.

Rowling is in that grey area.  She comes off sounding innocent, but she is perpetuating beliefs that get people killed. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:42:48 pm
First, your contention that Rowling's views are right-wing is pretty asinine.

I didn't characterize her views - you inferred that.

Quote
Second, can you name any left-leaning speakers who have been canceled?

Bill Maher was cancelled for calling the 911 hijackers brave.  Kathy Griffin was cancelled for making a violent and tasteless joke about the president.  The Dixie Chicks were cancelled for disparaging the president.  There are other examples too.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:47:21 pm
No one is saying everyone should read her books.  What the mob wants is for her not to be allowed to write her books because they don't like her views.  Or they don't want her to be allowed to speak/twitter or whatever.   HUGE difference.

I haven't seen that, but if true, I don't agree with censoring.  I don't think she's crossed the line into hate speech. 

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 04:00:06 pm
1. No.  They hide behind their handles when posting objectionable things.  Maya Forstater didn't, though.  So she got fired.
2. Why ?  Is there any way to characterize the scale of what is happening, objectively ?  Or is this the kind of thing where if it happens one single time it should be front page news ?

1. I read the ruling. Very sad.
2. Yes, the Forstater ruling is a perfect example of what is happening. objectively.
 


Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 04:09:41 pm
This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.

She isn't free to say whatever she likes, you said so yourself with your own reluctance to say what you think on Twitter.

This idea that anonymous Twits can get people fired, cancelled whatever is a new phenomena and a disturbing one. It was a very difficult thing to do before the internet and social media.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 04:15:46 pm
She isn't free to say whatever she likes, you said so yourself with your own reluctance to say what you think on Twitter.

This idea that anonymous Twits can get people fired, cancelled whatever is a new phenomena and a disturbing one. It was a very difficult thing to do before the internet and social media.


Being free to do something and being reluctant to do it are two different things.

Like I said, I also chose not express my opinions about Nancy Pelosi's maskless blowout.  It speaks more about my passivity and the medium of social media than it does my *freedom* to engage in controversial opinions.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 04:41:56 pm

Being free to do something and being reluctant to do it are two different things.

Like I said, I also chose not express my opinions about Nancy Pelosi's maskless blowout.  It speaks more about my passivity and the medium of social media than it does my *freedom* to engage in controversial opinions.

Your freedom comes at a high price if it has to be subjected to a bunch of abusive anonymous assholes.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 04:52:39 pm
Your freedom comes at a high price if it has to be subjected to a bunch of abusive anonymous assholes.

Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:01:58 pm
Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

That's why I'm not on Twitter or Facebook.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 05:04:50 pm
That's why I'm not on Twitter or Facebook.

I can appreciate that.  I'm b) I abstain from controversial opinions.  When I was younger I would be c) but I don't have the energy anymore.

This forum is as combative as I get. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 05:36:00 pm
1. I read the ruling. Very sad.
2. Yes, the Forstater ruling is a perfect example of what is happening. objectively.

I don't think I agree.  People are fired for objectionable comments constantly.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 05:37:03 pm
She isn't free to say whatever she likes, you said so yourself with your own reluctance to say what you think on Twitter.

This idea that anonymous Twits can get people fired, cancelled whatever is a new phenomena and a disturbing one.

It's not new at all.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:39:45 pm
I can appreciate that.  I'm b) I abstain from controversial opinions.  When I was younger I would be c) but I don't have the energy anymore.

This forum is as combative as I get.

What isn't controversial these days?
Same here, it's been almost two years since I posted on MLW.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:41:15 pm
It's not new at all.

Sure is.

People had to write letters to the editor and be interviewed in person before the internet and social media.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 05:43:59 pm
Sure is.

People had to write letters to the editor and be interviewed in person before the internet and social media.
How about the examples I cited?  The Dixie Chicks?  Were people complaining on the internet?

What about people who expressed PRIVATE political views, that got fired?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:53:51 pm
How about the examples I cited?  The Dixie Chicks?  Were people complaining on the internet?


Probably, it was 2003 after all.

Quote
What about people who expressed PRIVATE political views, that got fired?

What about them? Who did they express those "PRIVATE" views too?
Were they harassed on the internet because of those views?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 15, 2020, 06:37:10 pm
Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

It's a giant waste of time to complain on twitter.  Nobody cares.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 06:50:26 pm
I don't think I agree.  People are fired for objectionable comments constantly.

Except what is "questionable" now is generally pretty tame and mundane.  "I don't think a transgender female is the equivalent of a female with XX chromosomes".    oooooh....  how terrible.   ::)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 07:01:25 pm


What about them? Who did they express those "PRIVATE" views too?
Were they harassed on the internet because of those views?

No, they expressed their views to friends, who told others.

Why aren't those examples cancel culture?

Because people called people rather than tweeting?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 07:02:33 pm
Except what is "questionable" now is generally pretty tame and mundane.  "I don't think a transgender female is the equivalent of a female with XX chromosomes".    oooooh....  how terrible.   ::)

Those are your values.  You are saying cancel culture means cancelling an opinion you happen to agree with.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 07:09:35 pm
It's a giant waste of time to complain on twitter.  Nobody cares.

I'm wondering if this is a reason things like Twitter will die a slow death, either that or just become echo chambers for the QAnon set and other nut cases as rational people abandon them.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 07:32:06 pm
I'm wondering if this is a reason things like Twitter will die a slow death, either that or just become echo chambers for the QAnon set and other nut cases as rational people abandon them.

Twitter is actually a lot more superior to facebook when it comes to moderating insults and misinformation.  They suspend users all the time for harassment and insults.  They also don't allow misinformation, unlike Zuckerberg.

Facebook will need to give in to pressure as well, but they wing nuts go and make start their own sites like parler where in the name of 'free speech' they can spew untruths all they want.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 07:35:33 pm
It's a giant waste of time to complain on twitter.  Nobody cares.
 

It's a giant waste of time to complain anywhere on the internet, not just twitter.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 15, 2020, 07:40:43 pm
It depends.  I wouldn't boycott a fiscal conservative because I know it's just a difference of opinion.

Climate change deniers and COVIDIOTS harm society, IMO, so no I can't support them in any way.

Rowling is in that grey area.  She comes off sounding innocent, but she is perpetuating beliefs that get people killed.

JK isn't perpetuating any such beliefs.  The beliefs that get people killed go something like this:  "I hate you and therefore I want you to die and so I'm going to kill you".

Jk doesn't hate anyone and isn't calling for violence and doesn't want anyone dead.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 07:53:15 pm
JK isn't perpetuating any such beliefs.  The beliefs that get people killed go something like this:  "I hate you and therefore I want you to die and so I'm going to kill you".

Jk doesn't hate anyone and isn't calling for violence and doesn't want anyone dead.

Trans women are targeted and murdered at alarming rates as a result of hate crimes.

Perpetuating the stereotype that they are just aggressive men pretending to be women while innocently claiming it's all about feminism does feed into the mentality that gets trans women killed.

ETA, but I agree it's not her objective which is why I said it's a grey area.  She inadvertently plays into the hate.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 08:02:39 pm

Perpetuating the stereotype that they are just aggressive men pretending to be women while innocently claiming it's all about feminism does feed into the mentality that gets trans women killed.

It's not evident to many people how offensive it is to make anti-trans comments of any level.  Most people (something like 70%) are comfortable with trans people and a minority is very vocal in defending them.  As such, when there's a large reaction (like someone getting fired) folks who are neutral think there's some kind of angry minority that has sway over the issue. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 02:42:42 am
Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer. 

That's a gross distortion of the book.  The "transvestite serial killer" isn't a major character in the book, he's among a rogue's gallery of characters the principals talk to during their investigation.  Nor is he depicted as transgender or even transvestite.  He's depicted as a cisgender man who used a disguise to get close to a victim.

Quote
The 'evidence' that provoked the malice was so flimsy, even Twitter should have been embarrassed to publish it. Pink News, which dominates the LGBTQ+ outrage market, gave the case for the prosecution. According to the first review, 'JK Rowling’s latest book is about a murderous cis man who dresses as a woman to kill his victims', it announced.

It is about nothing of the sort, I thought. And I could say that with authority because I had just finished a review copy of Troubled Blood, the fifth novel in Rowling’s Cormoran Strike series, as research for a long piece on her politics and art I'm working on for the Critic. No honest person who takes the trouble to read it can see the novel as transphobic. But then honest people are hard to find in a culture war.

The men and women pouring out their loathing of Rowling online could not have read the unreleased book: not that their ignorance bothered them in slightest, as no mob on the rampage in history has ever stopped to read a novel.

One person had read it, however, a reviewer for the Daily Telegraph. And it was his assertion that set off the hate fest. The meat of the book, he declared is 'the investigation into a cold case: the disappearance of GP Margot Bamborough in 1974, thought to have been a victim of Dennis Creed, a transvestite serial killer. One wonders what critics of Rowling’s stance on trans issues will make of a book whose moral seems to be: never trust a man in a dress'.

...

It amounts to this. On page 75, Strike is listening to the son of an investigating officer tell him what he knows about Creed.

'He had his failures you know. Penny Hiskett, she got away from him and gave the police a description in ’71, but that didn’t help them much. She said he was dark and stocky, because he was wearing a wig at the time and all padded out in a woman’s coat. They caught him in the end because of Melody Bower. Nightclub singer, looked like Diana Ross. Creed got chatting to her at the bus stop, offered her a lift, then tried to drag her into the van when she said no. She escaped, gave the police a proper description and told them he’d said his house was of Paradise Park.'

Creed mentions the advantage of lipstick and a wig in making women think he’s 'a harmless old queer' when Strike interviews him, and that’s about that. A novelist uses a passing detail to explain how a murderer got close to one of his victims – for presumably the victim who gave the police a 'proper description' did not see him in a woman’s coat and wig. A critic, unintentionally or not, whips up a rage, and thousands allow themselves to be whipped. Pavlov’s dogs showed more critical independence.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/j-k-rowling-s-latest-novel-isn-t-transphobic-


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 05:42:48 am
Didn't JK say that her book touched on this topic ?
"On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself"
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:02:57 am
Didn't JK say that her book touched on this topic ?
"On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself"

I'm pretty sure she meant she was trying to learn about today's gender ideology so she could write about a 20s-30s woman who has grown up immersed in this environment.

 Not researching how a 1970s serial killer might use a disguise.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:14:26 am
I didn't know who she was, but I googled.  She is also a COVIDIOT and anti-BLM.  I didn't find anything about months of being pressured into anything, just that she was being deliberately antagonizing with the beep/boop which isn't all that surprising for a COVIDIOT/anti-BLM.

From what I'm getting, I think the anger goes beyond the pronouns. 

As far as I can tell her crime against BLM was refusing to put "BLM/ACAB" in her bio when activists demanded it, and blocking people who harrassed her about it.


Meh, but hey she got people like me googling who she is, so I guess any publicity is good publicity.

She's pretty well known and doesn't need to get internet clowns riled up to get publicity for her career. She's got some big movie credits, and was the most famous female fighter on the planet for quite a while too. She's currently on Disney/Starwars "The Mandalorian", which I guess is why SJW types feel she owes them a declaration of fealty.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:40:49 am
This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.

Nobody is suggesting that people need to buy Rowling's books or that she's being silenced if people won't buy her books.  Book stores don't need to carry them either-- some have taken her books off their shelves, and good for them I guess.

But the campaign to destroy her reputation based on misrepresentation of her views and inaccurate claims about her work goes beyond that. It's pretty similar to the fake news campaigns being waged in politics. "JKR is transphobic, she wrote a book about a trans serial killer!" is about the same level of discourse as "Candidate X has ties to Islamic extremists!", "Candidate Y wants to disband the police and leave the streets to the gangs!"  "OMG it's true I read it on Facebook plz share this info with everyone!"  As the saying goes, lies can run halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes laced up, and we see that in social media all the time.


And obviously the deluge of threats of violence and gendered slurs directed toward Rowling speaks for itself. As does the "#RIPJKRowling" hashtag that was trending this week.

Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat.


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:59:12 am
Why is it news that mobs exist though ?

There are lots of idiots about, I have noticed... 

We don't tweet about the MAGA bunch much here either.  Because it's boring to be outraged all the time...

I feel like pretty much everybody is aware of how disgusting the MAGA bunch are.  Even the MAGA people themselves-- they seem to be somewhat proud of it in fact.

I am not sure many progressives realize how much disgusting behavior is being carried out under the banner of "social justice".  I think that some people would prefer to turn a blind eye, or even rationalize/justify it.

And I think that many progressives have become so obsessed with the idea of intersectionality that they don't see a problem with plain old misogyny unless there are trans people or POC on the receiving end.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 11:39:02 am
I feel like pretty much everybody is aware of how disgusting the MAGA bunch are.  Even the MAGA people themselves-- they seem to be somewhat proud of it in fact.

I am not sure many progressives realize how much disgusting behavior is being carried out under the banner of "social justice".  I think that some people would prefer to turn a blind eye, or even rationalize/justify it.

And I think that many progressives have become so obsessed with the idea of intersectionality that they don't see a problem with plain old misogyny unless there are trans people or POC on the receiving end.
 

But why do we need to know ?  The MAGA bunch likes to post pictures of people throwing things at cops etc.
a
As a 'public' - what is the function of having a group shamed by showing behaviour of individuals in that group ?  I'm not saying there's no function at all.   I'm asking what it is.

When you think about it, individual incidents of racism are elevated and called out ie. "can you believe THIS happens in Canada in this day and age ?".

Nobody thinks much about that,maybe because even a single incident is a shameful thing and nobody believes that such behaviour is generally acceptable.  But what are the new parameters around group behaviour ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 01:05:16 pm
No, they expressed their views to friends, who told others.

Why aren't those examples cancel culture?

Because people called people rather than tweeting?

When could private political views get you fired in Canada? Methinks that should be a slam dunk before any kind of tribunal.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2020, 01:25:16 pm
It's not evident to many people how offensive it is to make anti-trans comments of any level.

If you were a woman who had been assaulted or raped by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a penis and balls naked in the changeroom with you?  Would you trust 100% of these transwomen to actually be trans women?  Have you ever heard of any examples of men doing weird and creepy things to get off?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 01:33:24 pm
When could private political views get you fired in Canada? Methinks that should be a slam dunk before any kind of tribunal.

Yes, it has happened and it's why academic freedom councils were invented.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 01:34:51 pm
If you were a woman who had been assaulted or raped by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?

Why are you asking such an irrelevant question ?

It's like Capital Punishment debate, where people asked 'if it was YOUR family member' etc. ? 

No, I wouldn't feel comfortable... is that helpful ?

Now, let's get back to the discussion...
 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 01:55:43 pm
Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

I certainly feel that most social media is a giant flaming ball of crap and have no wish to be involved personally. However, Twitter is apparently supposed to be a marketplace of ideas. It's used by all the politicians to express their views and interact with the public.  It's used by celebrities to promote their new endeavors and interact with their fans.   If women are being pushed out of this platform by intimidation and threats, they're being pushed out of the marketplace of ideas.

Here's a story from a pub owner in Sheffield England who clicked "like" on a Tweet that somebody apparently felt was "problematic".  A trans activist spotted the egregious offense, and contacted a brewery, demanding to have her fired.  The brewery forwarded the complaint to her, which resulted in this response:

https://theharlequinpub.wordpress.com/2020/09/10/formal-complaints-gross-misconduct-and-a-swift-resolution/

It's funny, in the sense that the trans activist was hilariously mistaken about the brewery's ability to fire the bar owner. On the other hand, it's a little disturbing to see the extent to which some activists are going in their efforts to silence dissent.  As I keep saying, the purpose of a witch-hunt isn't to kill one witch, it's to scare other women into compliance. The trans activist couldn't get the pub owner fired, and the woke mob hasn't been able to silence JKRowling. But if you're a typical woman, you probably don't own your own business, and you probably aren't a famous billionaire who can do whatever she likes.  If you're a typical woman, the potential to get in trouble of some kind for "liking" the wrong post on Twitter is pretty scary.

And, this isn't just in the online world. Fear about the consequences of being branded transphobic has women afraid in real life too.  In the other thread I mentioned the story of the woman who left her yoga studio because she was afraid that she'd be branded a transphobe if she complained about the trans-woman staring at her in the shower. I've read several accounts from young lesbians who were either thrown out of their LGBTQ2SIA+ student groups because they were deemed transphobes for not wanting to date transwomen, or who had been coerced into dating transwomen out of fear of being ostracized if they said no. Some time ago in the other thread I posted the results of a survey of UK lesbians of which a significant percentage had experienced consequences after saying "no" to dating transwomen. Doxxing, employers contacted, exclusion from LGBT groups, this sort of thing.

In this environment where people shoot first and ask questions later, being labeled a transphobe is a quick way to get shot at.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 16, 2020, 02:01:37 pm
If you were a woman who had been assaulted or raped by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?  Would you trust 100% of these transwomen to actually be trans women?  Have you ever heard of any examples of men doing weird and creepy things to get off?

All the transpeople I've met are pretty considerate about the comfort level of others.

Would any woman who'd been assaulted or raped by a man be comfortable with a 6'3" man in her immediate vicinity, clothed or not?

Yes, men can do creepy things - including installing spy cameras/peepholes in female-only spaces, positioning cell phones  beneath stairs to record women in skirts as they use the stairs, standing outside bedroom windows, using binoculars/telescopes to look at women through more distant windows, presumably ising drones and cameras for the same purpose.  In order to protect women at all times, should we outlaw phones, caneras, binoculars, telescopes?   Or dictate that men cannot be within 2 kms of women at any time, in case of a man being a creep or a woman being frightened?

And, why is there no concern about a man being traumatized by being exposed to a woman with bare boobs and exposed pussy in a man's changing area?  Are all male experiences with women invariably positive?  Do all men just automatically welcome naked women into their space?  Are no women ever predatory, violent or just plain creepy?

The argument put forth about the threat of trans-male in a female space strikes me as fear-mongering because this narrative presents women as helpless and needing protection from what is, realistically, a pretty minor threat.  Using the protection of women/children to galvanize people to some action is pretty standard propaganda.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 02:11:43 pm
But why do we need to know ?  The MAGA bunch likes to post pictures of people throwing things at cops etc.

As a 'public' - what is the function of having a group shamed by showing behaviour of individuals in that group ?  I'm not saying there's no function at all.   I'm asking what it is.

When you think about it, individual incidents of racism are elevated and called out ie. "can you believe THIS happens in Canada in this day and age ?".

Nobody thinks much about that,maybe because even a single incident is a shameful thing and nobody believes that such behaviour is generally acceptable.  But what are the new parameters around group behaviour ?

I think that when people ask "can you believe this racist crap still happens in Canada in 2020?" it stigmatizes and marginalizes unacceptable behavior. Which is good, right?



There's lots of things I can't believe still happen in 2020.  I can't believe women are being threatened with physical violence for expressive their opinions in 2020. I can't believe that lesbians are being told they need to learn to accept pen1s in 2020.  I can't believe lesbians are being threatened with corrective rape in 2020.  I think that actual progressives would be concerned by those things as well.  I think that real progressives would want to know about that and denounce it.


Also, I think more attention to this trend would perhaps get Twitter and similar businesses to put some thought into improving their platform.  I would think that if people paid more attention to how normalized misogyny has become, companies that care about their public image would want to do something to address it.



 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 02:17:11 pm
I miss British pubs. If I'm ever in Sheffield, I'll check the Harlequin out.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 16, 2020, 02:38:53 pm

Also, I think more attention to this trend would perhaps get Twitter and similar businesses to put some thought into improving their platform.  I would think that if people paid more attention to how normalized misogyny has become, companies that care about their public image would want to do something to address it.

 -k

I'm not on twitter, so don't feel I can say much about the bullying that goes on there.  But I wonder what you think they should do to address this, exactly?  If they remove those 'bullying' posts, they'll be accused of interfering with "free speech" and the people prone to bullying will go to Reddit (I suppose they're already there), FB, snapchat, instagram, etc., - wherever they feel they can express their disapproval.   

I think there are a lot of moderate people in the world; I think they're the majority.   I also think they're the ones least likely to engage in conflict online, so the majority of what we see in the online world are the extremes of any viewpoint.  It's easy to forget that those are not really representative of what most people think.  I think its easy to see a problem as bigger than it is, if too much attention is paid to what is happening online.  It also seems to me that what was big news/scandal/event in the online world this week is practically forgotten in a few months time.

I think at some point, companies, not media companies, but just regular companies, will have to take a stand about firing as a result of social media mob action.  They should, perhaps, devise a 'standard' for which people can be fired - outright cruelty to animals, making death threats, online or not, getting arrested for racism, spousal abuse, sexual assault - but not for being mobbed on Twitter or any other platform for an expressed opinion.  I think more moderate people should find a way to speak up if they see mobbing on social media - but I don't have much hope for that, since yeah - who likes to deal with all that conflict?  Not many.

There is a lot about social media that has to change, but I do think the priority has to be the spread of misinformation online.  It's not that this issue of online bullying/cancel culture isn't important, but in my view it's less of a priority than misinformation that can cause rather more societal harm than whether JK Rowling (or anyone else) loses book sales. 

Btw, as a result of this thread and in a roundabout way her attackers, I'll be looking to read her new series.  Kind of an unintended consequence of this, eh? 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 02:51:41 pm
I think that when people ask "can you believe this racist crap still happens in Canada in 2020?" it stigmatizes and marginalizes unacceptable behavior. Which is good, right?

I gave some parameters as to why it could be good, yes.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 03:21:33 pm
I gave some parameters as to why it could be good, yes.

But it's not good for some things, like drawing conclusions about a group. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2020, 05:01:29 pm
Many transgender women want the right to use female change-rooms and compete in women's sports.  Many biological women want the right to not have to compete against biological men in sports or have them in a change-room when they're both naked.

So we have a conflict in rights.  We also have to acknowledge that transwomen and biological women aren't the same and will never be the same and should be treated as such in circumstances where it matters, like sports.  If a woman doesn't want a transwoman being their gynecologist that's their right, just as it's their right not to want a male one.  Men are discriminated against all the time.  Female-only gyms for instance.  If a woman doesn't want to wax your legs with your dick and balls in her face, she has that right.  Anyone who insists is a disgusting narcissist piece of crap.  Any transwoman who takes pride in beating women in sports is a moron.

Personally I don't care, as I'm neither a trans person or a women, so whatever.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
It's not necessarily a right to refuse a doctor because you don't like their group...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 06:43:08 pm
Fortunately there are testosterone limits for women's sport. It doesn't address the gender issue specifically but at least it is one ceiling.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2020, 07:31:11 pm
It's not necessarily a right to refuse a doctor because you don't like their group...

If a woman doesn't want a man touching her punani, she has that right to refuse.  Any reasonable man or transwoman should be able to understand that.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 07:44:14 pm
If a woman doesn't want a man touching her punani, she has that right to refuse.  Any reasonable man or transwoman should be able to understand that.

Well... I am just saying that your general assertion isn't clear to me.  Could *I* refuse a trans doctor ?  A gay doctor ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 08:11:01 pm
Well... I am just saying that your general assertion isn't clear to me.  Could *I* refuse a trans doctor ?  A gay doctor ?

You can refuse any doctor you want, you don't have to give a reason. Of course you might not get treated as a result. Your choice.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 01:32:41 am
I'm not on twitter, so don't feel I can say much about the bullying that goes on there.  But I wonder what you think they should do to address this, exactly?  If they remove those 'bullying' posts, they'll be accused of interfering with "free speech" and the people prone to bullying will go to Reddit (I suppose they're already there), FB, snapchat, instagram, etc., - wherever they feel they can express their disapproval.   

Twitter already has a zero tolerance policy in regard to speech they consider transphobic. Why can't they do the same in regard to violent misogyny?

I think there are a lot of moderate people in the world; I think they're the majority.   I also think they're the ones least likely to engage in conflict online, so the majority of what we see in the online world are the extremes of any viewpoint.  It's easy to forget that those are not really representative of what most people think.  I think its easy to see a problem as bigger than it is, if too much attention is paid to what is happening online.  It also seems to me that what was big news/scandal/event in the online world this week is practically forgotten in a few months time.

I do think that for the most part people overestimate how much power these online mobs actually have.  Pen1s News has been gleefully predicting the demise of JKR's book sales due to the online controversy; her books have actually surged in popularity (with the help of the pandemic of course).  Angry incel dudes organized boycotts and review-bombing for Captain Marvel; it was a gigantic hit.

But, if you're a small business or a private citizen, can you risk it?

I think at some point, companies, not media companies, but just regular companies, will have to take a stand about firing as a result of social media mob action.  They should, perhaps, devise a 'standard' for which people can be fired - outright cruelty to animals, making death threats, online or not, getting arrested for racism, spousal abuse, sexual assault - but not for being mobbed on Twitter or any other platform for an expressed opinion.  I think more moderate people should find a way to speak up if they see mobbing on social media - but I don't have much hope for that, since yeah - who likes to deal with all that conflict?  Not many.

If you run a pub near campus, and students come to you and say "this employee of yours said some very hateful things on social media, and we are organizing a student boycott unless you fire her," wouldn't that be scary?  You could talk to your employee and get her side of the story, but if you decide that what she said isn't something she should be fired over... what then?  Can you risk losing the business from the college students?   You could hope that they're bluffing, or that most of the college students wouldn't actually know or care that there's a boycott going on.  And it might turn out that way... but what if it didn't? 

There is a lot about social media that has to change, but I do think the priority has to be the spread of misinformation online.  It's not that this issue of online bullying/cancel culture isn't important, but in my view it's less of a priority than misinformation that can cause rather more societal harm than whether JK Rowling (or anyone else) loses book sales. 

I agree. The potential to impact elections, the spread of conspiracy theories and false medical information, there are potentially some very dangerous things going on.

Btw, as a result of this thread and in a roundabout way her attackers, I'll be looking to read her new series.  Kind of an unintended consequence of this, eh?

Me too. I have never bought a JKR book before, but what I've heard about her current "Robert Galbraith" books did make me somewhat interested. The new one is apparently selling very well for the moment, in spite of (or perhaps with the help of) the controversy.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 01:52:36 am
He's depicted as a cisgender man who used a disguise to get close to a victim.

That's even worse, yikes.  Talk about playing on fears about transgender women.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 02:01:49 am
Nobody is suggesting that people need to buy Rowling's books or that she's being silenced if people won't buy her books.  Book stores don't need to carry them either-- some have taken her books off their shelves, and good for them I guess.

But the campaign to destroy her reputation based on misrepresentation of her views and inaccurate claims about her work goes beyond that. It's pretty similar to the fake news campaigns being waged in politics. "JKR is transphobic, she wrote a book about a trans serial killer!" is about the same level of discourse as "Candidate X has ties to Islamic extremists!", "Candidate Y wants to disband the police and leave the streets to the gangs!"  "OMG it's true I read it on Facebook plz share this info with everyone!"  As the saying goes, lies can run halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes laced up, and we see that in social media all the time.


And obviously the deluge of threats of violence and gendered slurs directed toward Rowling speaks for itself. As does the "#RIPJKRowling" hashtag that was trending this week.

Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat.


 -k


You're taking twitter way too seriously.  People shout down their opponents on every topic, whether it's vaccines, Bernie Sanders or COVID.  The most ridiculous hashtags start to trend.

There is no conspiracy.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 08:16:38 am
You can refuse any doctor you want, you don't have to give a reason. Of course you might not get treated as a result. Your choice.

I suppose so.  But it's NOT the same as a "right".  The difference is subtle but if we're labelling things let's make sure we agree, since conclusions can be made about the legal foundations we are laying down in our discussion.

If you have a "right" to refuse a doctor without stating a reason, then that is your right.  If you have to give a reason, and that reason must be valid then I doubt the courts would guarantee you a right to discriminate there. 

Very nebulous and overthought but there you are  ;D
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 08:39:31 am
I suppose so.  But it's NOT the same as a "right".  The difference is subtle but if we're labelling things let's make sure we agree, since conclusions can be made about the legal foundations we are laying down in our discussion.

If you have a "right" to refuse a doctor without stating a reason, then that is your right.  If you have to give a reason, and that reason must be valid then I doubt the courts would guarantee you a right to discriminate there. 

Very nebulous and overthought but there you are  ;D

You don’t have to give a reason at all, nor should you have to. You might just think they are a crappy doctor or don’t like their bedside manner. It doesn’t matter. Depending on the circumstances you might have trouble finding another but that is up to you.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 12:28:47 pm
That's even worse, yikes.  Talk about playing on fears about transgender women.

How is it different from anyone else who poses as something to get close to a victim? Most sexual predators do it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 01:22:46 pm
Fortunately there are testosterone limits for women's sport. It doesn't address the gender issue specifically but at least it is one ceiling.

Whew.... given the money and attention given to the WNBA by straight white men, I'll bet we're all relieved by this...  ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 01:51:22 pm
Whew.... given the money and attention given to the WNBA by straight white men, I'll bet we're all relieved by this...  ???

My concern is for women who want to compete on an even field, not what straight white men like.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 02:30:16 pm
My concern is for women who want to compete on an even field, not what straight white men like.

Why do you care ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 17, 2020, 04:55:11 pm
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 06:26:24 pm
Why do you care ?

On a personal level, I have two grand daughters who play rugby at a high level. Both have represented BC in age group interprovincial competitions and the USA Sevens tournaments in Las Vegas. The oldest plays for UBC, or at least did before covid but they are still training and practicing without contact. Why should she have to go up against someone with a dick who decides to call himself a woman, outweighs her by 50 lbs, has a testosterone level ten times as high and probably doesn't even train as hard? It's a contact sport, not tiddlywinks.

On a general level, women's testosterone levels range between 0.12 to 1.79 nanomoles,  men range from 7.7 to 29.4 nanomoles. The IAAF has set a maximum of 5 nanomoles for women athletes, still way above the normal range for women, including elite athletes. An athlete who is above that is  allowed to lower their level by surgical or chemical means not specified. A CIS woman who used chemical means to raise their level to that maximum allowed would be slapped with a doping ban quicker than they could blink.

Why is it always women who are having to deal with this bullshit?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on September 17, 2020, 06:42:31 pm
Why is it always women who are having to deal with this bullshit?
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around. I get a sense of what a reasonable conservative has to put up with in a tent big enough for Q-Anon.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:24:32 pm

(https://i.imgur.com/cFavaDl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/zIycxeK.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/fKGf0Qc.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:27:01 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/YumT4w8.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:31:55 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/QEoGUn8.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 07:48:18 pm
Quoting tweets seems like a weird way to post for this place  ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 17, 2020, 07:52:13 pm
So, they're not making a whole lot of sense to this cisgender, heteronormative (more or less) female-identifying person.  The conversation looks like people trying to outdo each other's jargon.  While this may be of interest to committed activists, most people are gonna just ignore it, imo. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:54:26 pm
Quoting tweets seems like a weird way to post for this place  ???

I originally started this thread to make fun of woke-people culture, and those tweets tickled my fancy.

So, they're not making a whole lot of sense to this cisgender, heteronormative (more or less) female-identifying person.  The conversation looks like people trying to outdo each other's jargon.  While this may be of interest to committed activists, most people are gonna just ignore it, imo. 

Anna Slatz is doing satire. The other person is dead serious.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 08:20:59 pm
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around.

Maybe because they are responsible for a lot of it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 08:26:18 pm
Whew.... given the money and attention given to the WNBA by straight white men, I'll bet we're all relieved by this...  ???

I assume you're asking this in an academic sense, because only a king sized asshole would suggest that since straight white men don't give a shit about women's sports it doesn't matter to anybody.

Why do you care ?

Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?


I am guessing that you're trying to advance the notion that this is concern-trolling. That since straight white men don't watch WNBA on TV, straight white men who claim to be concerned about fairness for female athletes are not being sincere.

Jesse Brown advanced a similar argument in THEGREATESTPODCASTEVER: "LOLOLOL, these right wingers suddenly pretending they care about marginalized, racialized aestheticians! When did right wingers start caring about racialized, marginalized women?"  I said at the time, and I still believe this to be true: that is a spectacularly dumb argument to advance because it begs the question: don't YOU care about those racialized, marginalized women?

I've never understood the accusation of "concern trolling" as a debate tactic.  Even if a subject isn't a personal concern for the person making the argument, the subject is a personal concern for somebody, and we're still allowed to be concerned about issues that don't directly affect us.  If you're mocking somebody's concern for an issue, you're making an implicit argument that the issue isn't worth being concerned over.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 08:37:19 pm
I assume you're asking this in an academic sense, because only a king sized **** would suggest that since straight white men don't give a **** about women's sports it doesn't matter to anybody.

I'm harkening back to the boys at The Rebel and The Sun who are using these things to fuel angertainment.

Quote
Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

Yes so I 'liked' his comment and explanation ok ?

Quote
If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

I have said umpteen times plus two that I don't want to shut down the debate.

Quote
You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?

I think I explained this at the top of our looong discussion on this.

Quote
I am guessing that you're trying to advance the notion that this is concern-trolling. That since straight white men don't watch WNBA on TV, straight white men who claim to be concerned about fairness for female athletes are not being sincere.

Bingo.

Quote
Jesse Brown advanced a similar argument in THEGREATESTPODCASTEVER: "LOLOLOL, these right wingers suddenly pretending they care about marginalized, racialized aestheticians! When did right wingers start caring about racialized, marginalized women?"  I said at the time, and I still believe this to be true: that is a spectacularly dumb argument to advance because it begs the question: don't YOU care about those racialized, marginalized women?

Sure - and I say that they should host the debate.  I am listening to the points you and JKR are making.  I am NOT getting angry over Jessica Janiv, JKR, you, or anybody who has an opinion AND a stake in it. 

The people who profit from angertainment are my (And Canadaland and Mary Rogan's) targets.  There is nothing in there where they say that woman can't raise the concerns that you share.

Quote
I've never understood the accusation of "concern trolling" as a debate tactic.  Even if a subject isn't a personal concern for the person making the argument, the subject is a personal concern for somebody, and we're still allowed to be concerned about issues that don't directly affect us.  If you're mocking somebody's concern for an issue, you're making an implicit argument that the issue isn't worth being concerned over.

It's not concern, it's concern TROLLING.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 08:49:42 pm
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around. I get a sense of what a reasonable conservative has to put up with in a tent big enough for Q-Anon.

The left is about justice and fairness.  The left is about sticking up for the little guy and trying to make things better for the people who are worst off.  That's a good thing. 

I think all of us would agree that trans people deserve to be safe and to have legal protection against discrimination.  But some of the things that trans people and their allies are calling for goes beyond what many people see as being reasonable or fair.   Even in very liberal California, polling says that most people don't think transwomen should be in prison with cisgender women, or competing in sport against cisgender women.

I've been reading gender-critical feminists who are quite depressed that their options in the upcoming US election are either vote for the Mango Mussolini or vote for the guy who wants to put transwomen in women's prisons and women's sports.  Trans issues won't be what makes the difference in the US election, but some of them are sufficiently grossed out that they are talking about not voting.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 09:12:31 pm



Quote
Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?



Would I be as involved? Maybe not but I would still have the same opinion.



As and old straight white guy, I try to be careful when I post on this subject because I have to admit, much of the debate is beyond me. On the other hand, women aways seem to be getting the dirty end of the stick when it comes to these issues. That just doesn't seem right.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 09:27:38 pm

 



As and old straight white guy, I try to be careful when I post on this subject because I have to admit, much of the debate is beyond me. 
;)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 17, 2020, 09:52:49 pm
Well... I am just saying that your general assertion isn't clear to me.  Could *I* refuse a trans doctor ?  A gay doctor ?

If it's on the basis that you just don't like "those people", then I wouldn't think so.  That's not reasonable.  A woman not wanting a biologically male doctor to touch her privates is reasonable.  A woman not wanting to wax a transwoman's balls is reasonable.  If that woman also wants to refuse to give the transwoman a pedicure, there's no reasonable basis to that.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 17, 2020, 10:10:58 pm
The rights for all minorities and oppressed people, and for all people generally, is that i support anyone doing whatever you want, everyone should born free on this earth.  But a person's rights only go as far as until they come into conflict with the rights of others.  That's the crux of the issue here.  Your freedom to swing your fists ends where my nose begins.

Minorities shouldn't have more rights than non-minorities just because society feels worse for the minorities or they have been oppressed at some point.  Human rights don't work like that.  Everyone is EQUAL under the law.  That's the whole point!

So your right to express your gender identity anyway you want shouldn't bother anyone until it conflicts with the rights of others.  When a biological man who identifies with the gender of a woman (a transwoman) wants to compete in sports against women, now you're trampling on the rights of women who want a fair competition without a biological man dominating the competition, and in contact sports there's also a big issue of safety.

Transwomen have rights, so do women.  Everyone's worried about trans rights in order to make things more inclusive for them, but it shouldn't come at someone else's expense.  Which is why affirmative action irks me.  POC and women shouldn't be denied employment simply on the basis of their sex or race, but neither should men and whites.

We've created an "oppression hierarchy" where the rights of the more oppressed groups supersede the groups below them on the hierarchy.  It's total BS.  Everyone has EQUAL human rights.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 10:55:30 pm
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it.  The passage below was my thoughts exactly on the transvestite serial killer in the novel:

Quote
She equates her own experience of abuse with the theoretical abuse of men entering women’s bathrooms to abuse girls and women.  Bathrooms are the Rome of anti-trans arguments, somehow every road leads back to them. Transphobes have this paranoid fantasy of men, disguised as women, being allowed to enter women’s bathrooms where they can...kidnap girls? Pull them into a stall? Just look at them? I really don’t know, the details about exactly what they’re afraid of never come out, but they’re afraid of something.

But it’s asinine, because cis men completely undisguised can already do this. Not legally, but abuse is illegal regardless. If the bathroom is empty, literally anyone can enter regardless of gender. If the bathroom is full, it’s no easier to kidnap or abuse someone than it would be in any other public space.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 18, 2020, 05:48:51 am
Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it. 

I don't agree.  The points JKR raises could be valid, as could the points that the Reddit poster makes.

But the first points lack cites on both sides.

And safety is inextricably subjective and difficult to manage.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 18, 2020, 01:44:52 pm
And safety is inextricably subjective and difficult to manage.

Agreed, but put my post in context.

I said I evolved on my opinions about JKR when I read about the character in her book.  I no longer feel her agenda is purely feminism and she does have an anti-trans slant, which, as the poster on reddit says, always comes down to the boogie man trans-woman lurking in the bathroom and endangering innocent helpless women. 

As for safety issues, I actually understand the problems created when allowing trans women into gym lockers and bathrooms.  However, the alternative is forcing trans women into men's bathrooms where they are endangered (not to mention humiliated). 

Some women falsely accuse men of r@pe (apparently that word is censored) and ruin their lives and careers and it's horrible but we don't get rid of **** laws because of it. 

I feel the same way about the bathroom issue.  Even though it can be abused, I feel it'll do more good than bad.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 18, 2020, 02:07:49 pm
I said I evolved on my opinions about JKR when I read about the character in her book.  I no longer feel her agenda is purely feminism and she does have an anti-trans slant, which, as the poster on reddit says, always comes down to the boogie man trans-woman lurking in the bathroom and endangering innocent helpless women. 

Yes, I got that.  I feel like the sides in question aren't debating empirically, ie. not trying to reach a conclusion using all the facts available.

Quote
As for safety issues, I actually understand the problems created when allowing trans women into gym lockers and bathrooms.  However, the alternative is forcing trans women into men's bathrooms where they are endangered (not to mention humiliated). 

Yes, that is what I'm talking about with regards to the subjectivity of safety.

"I don't feel safe" isn't a rationale for your rights to trump (sorry) mine.  Actually safety concerns are. 

Also -  safety, in the end, is a benefit weighed against costs too.  Cars are designed with the understanding that they can't be accident proof and cost less than $100K.

 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on September 18, 2020, 04:16:57 pm
Maybe because they are responsible for a lot of it.
How many lefties exactly? Certainly not all of 'us'.   

Hence my comment about understanding the plight of reasonable conservatives being in the same tent with Q-Anon. I don't imagine that feels any better than being lumped in with a 'they' that needs to include Jessica Yaniv.  That said, why shouldn't the right be held to account for Q-anon?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 18, 2020, 05:24:54 pm
How many lefties exactly? Certainly not all of 'us'.   

Hence my comment about understanding the plight of reasonable conservatives being in the same tent with Q-Anon. I don't imagine that feels any better than being lumped in with a 'they' that needs to include Jessica Yaniv.  That said, why shouldn't the right be held to account for Q-anon?

No, certainly not all.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on September 18, 2020, 08:26:36 pm
The left is about justice and fairness.  The left is about sticking up for the little guy and trying to make things better for the people who are worst off.  That's a good thing.
It certainly is - its just too bad that pinning down what's good is probably the most political thing people do.

Quote
I think all of us would agree that trans people deserve to be safe and to have legal protection against discrimination. 
Yup, the same as any person.

Quote
But some of the things that trans people and their allies are calling for goes beyond what many people see as being reasonable or fair. Even in very liberal California, polling says that most people don't think transwomen should be in prison with cisgender women, or competing in sport against cisgender women.
One would think it would be safe to put specific things like this to the referenda California is famous/notorious for.  A resounding thumbs down from such a liberal state might bring some reason back to the mix.

Quote
I've been reading gender-critical feminists who are quite depressed that their options in the upcoming US election are either vote for the Mango Mussolini or vote for the guy who wants to put transwomen in women's prisons and women's sports.  Trans issues won't be what makes the difference in the US election, but some of them are sufficiently grossed out that they are talking about not voting.


-k
It's a world gone mad alright. I can barely drag my ass out of bed myself these days.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 27, 2020, 01:37:01 am

Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat.


I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.




Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 01, 2020, 01:59:04 am
I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

Oh wow! Good for you! You've found an anecdote!  How exciting for you!

 -k

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on October 01, 2020, 07:29:32 pm
Getting lectured on anecdotes from person who gave a handful of examples of transphobes getting harassed and drew the conclusion that "Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat." 

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 04, 2020, 04:38:58 pm
Getting lectured on anecdotes from person who gave a handful of examples of transphobes getting harassed and drew the conclusion that "Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat."

Misogyny on Twitter isn't an anecdote, it's a fact whose existence has been demonstrated by academic research and statistical analysis.  Even Twitter itself readily acknowledges its existence and promises "they need to do better."  Every year for many years they release a statement acknowledging it and promising to do better.

Yesterday Twitter sent out an announcement that tweets wishing for Trump's death would not be tolerated.  Which immediately resulted in mockery, because for women like Ilhan Omar and AOC, wishes for harm and death are a daily occurrence on Twitter.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/03/politics/twitter-trump-policy-ban-the-squad-politics-trnd/index.html

Twitter's safety team must have heard the laughter, because they responded with a thread here:  https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1312498514002243584

"We hear the voices who feel that we're enforcing some policies inconsistently. We agree we must do better, and we are working together inside to do so."
"We’ll continue to respond to concerns about our enforcement through action, not empty words."
(etc)
Which just resulted in more laughter and mockery.  And they deserve mockery.   For them to talk about "continuing" to enforce their policy against wishing harm on anybody so soon after #RIPJKRowling was a worldwide trend is laughable. 

 -k

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 04, 2020, 05:05:40 pm
I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

The claim was never that only women suffer abuse on Twitter,  so your ability to find a cisgender male person who is allegedly experiencing a campaign of harassment doesn't disprove what I have argued.     

Also, as you mention, Gu seems to be a questionable character, and maybe this alleged campaign by racist white doctors trying to destroy him isn't all it seems.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/5/18147216/eugene-gu-twitter-social-justice-activism-abuse-sexual-assault


I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

And trying to extrapolate Dr Gu's sad story into the conclusion that you've drawn here is spectacularly stupid. 

Certainly the abuse does discriminate. The alt-right have used Twitter to silence and intimidate their targets for years, and that is an issue that has been widely discussed.  What is much less discussed is that the social justice mob use the same tactics.  And progressives either don't know, or they're willing to rationalize or excuse it. So that's what I wanted to point out in this thread. Because nothing says "progressive" like threatening to rape or kill a woman for voicing her opinion.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 04, 2020, 05:58:54 pm
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/g5m3qfi/

Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it.  The passage below was my thoughts exactly on the transvestite serial killer in the novel:
Quote
She equates her own experience of abuse with the theoretical abuse of men entering women’s bathrooms to abuse girls and women.  Bathrooms are the Rome of anti-trans arguments, somehow every road leads back to them. Transphobes have this paranoid fantasy of men, disguised as women, being allowed to enter women’s bathrooms where they can...kidnap girls? Pull them into a stall? Just look at them? I really don’t know, the details about exactly what they’re afraid of never come out, but they’re afraid of something.

But it’s asinine, because cis men completely undisguised can already do this. Not legally, but abuse is illegal regardless. If the bathroom is empty, literally anyone can enter regardless of gender. If the bathroom is full, it’s no easier to kidnap or abuse someone than it would be in any other public space.

I'm going to respond to this in the Gender thread.

 -k

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 04, 2020, 11:21:40 pm
Kimmy does not comply with the Groupthink.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.  BC is the center of the hive, outliers are rare.  We will call you a racist homophobe TERF and an alt-right Trump supporter until there is compliance.  You have been warned.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 05, 2020, 06:40:15 am
Kimmy does not comply with the Groupthink.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.  BC is the center of the hive, outliers are rare.  We will call you a racist homophobe TERF and an alt-right Trump supporter until there is compliance.  You have been warned.

Stop living in fear.  You are free to express your opinions, as always. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 06, 2020, 12:07:11 am
Stop living in fear.  You are free to express your opinions, as always.

We all live in fear.  Say the wrong opinions, you lose your job, your career etc.  You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 07:16:05 am
We all live in fear.  Say the wrong opinions, you lose your job, your career etc.  You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.

There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 06, 2020, 09:59:20 am
There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole

But now the question of what constitutes being an a**hole is being decided by a mob of dopes on the internet.

For example yesterday I was reading that worldfamous champion cycling superstar, college professor, motivational speaker, and trans rights superhero Veronica Ivy (formerly known as Rachel V McKinnon... because she thought a stripper/porn star would be more feminine, I guess?) is asking her followers to stalk her competitors on Facebook and get screen-captures of anybody who complains about trans-women in women's sport so that she can send them to their sponsors and to USA Cycling.

(Veronica is also miffed that people at her event were cheering for her opponent instead of her:
(https://i.imgur.com/doxo636.png)
Imagine the entitlement. I think Veronica has probably done more to create pushback against trans activism than Amy Eileen Hamm or Meghan Murphy could ever hope to.)


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 10:42:50 am
But now the question of what constitutes being an a**hole is being decided by a mob of dopes on the internet.

That's because "now" there is an internet.  Before, the mob had landlines.

Quote
anybody who complains about trans-women in women's sport so that she can send them to their sponsors and to USA Cycling.

Sounds like she is against 'the mob' actually, but ok.  She shouldn't (and probably won't) get people to boycott based on reasonable discussion.  But what a 'complaint' is really is dependent...
 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 06, 2020, 12:49:57 pm
There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole

Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 12:57:16 pm
Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

Remember the young east indian 'looking' guy on CBC who got the ax for being the 'S' side in S&M play with women? What was his name?
I had a lot of sympathy for that guy. He was actually playing with women in the way those particular women wanted to play, but that wasn't politically correct at the time. I wonder what would be said if it was all revisited? Any interest in the topic?

Cheers.

edit: ahhhh right, Gian Ghomeshi.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 12:58:20 pm
Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

And... this is as it always was. 

I actually would love to live in an environment where people are so able to not take offense that ANYTHING can be discussed.  Communism would be a great topic to tackle...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 01:30:41 pm
And... this is as it always was. 
  Communism would be a great topic to tackle...

That discussion could actually happen on a Canadian forum but American heads would start to explode if there was any sort of suggestions made on how communism, socialism, and socially responsible democracies all differ.

Can you do it?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 07:01:47 pm
That discussion could actually happen on a Canadian forum but American heads would start to explode if there was any sort of suggestions made on how communism, socialism, and socially responsible democracies all differ.

Can you do it?

Not at work, no.  I work at a bank.  ;D
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 07, 2020, 02:08:45 am
Remember the young east indian 'looking' guy on CBC who got the ax for being the 'S' side in S&M play with women? What was his name?
I had a lot of sympathy for that guy. He was actually playing with women in the way those particular women wanted to play, but that wasn't politically correct at the time. I wonder what would be said if it was all revisited? Any interest in the topic?

Cheers.

edit: ahhhh right, Gian Ghomeshi.
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 07, 2020, 02:32:49 am
That's because "now" there is an internet.  Before, the mob had landlines.

Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny.  You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.  You didn't have

Sounds like she is against 'the mob' actually, but ok. 

Oh come on. She's asking people to monitor the Facebook posts of her competitors to look for instances of wrongthink so that she can report them to the USA Cycling organization and complain to their sponsors. She's not "against 'the mob'",  she's leading 'the mob'.  She's the one bellowing for the villagers to get their torches and pitchforks and find the witches.

She shouldn't (and probably won't) get people to boycott based on reasonable discussion.  But what a 'complaint' is really is dependent...

To many people, "female athletes should not have to compete against male-bodied competitors" is a reasonable opinion. Some people would claim it's hate speech.  And those people believe that calling you transphobic is sufficient to create "consequences" (as Ms Ivy puts it) for you.  They hope that the accusation of transphobia on its own is so toxic as to render you a pariah regardless of whether you have a reasonable argument to make.  They hope that your employer (or your social group or whatever) is sufficiently frightened of becoming involved in any sort of controversy that they will cut ties with you rather than face the ire of some woke mob that may or may not even exist.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on October 07, 2020, 09:23:54 am
Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny. 

 -k

Before the internet I was married and living in a townhouse complex.  My husband left, and I lived there alone.  One night I had 3 friends over, we played cards till around 1 in the morning.   Another night, I was cleaning late at night and noticed a car driving around the complex several times.  It was weird, so I called the cops, the cops came to talk to them and then to me.  A couple of weeks later, I was given notice because the neighbors wete complaining that I was having such wild parties, the police had to be called.  Even though I explained both circumstances  the property manager was adamant that I had to leave.

I moved to a very small town in Northern BC.  I was single, I went out dancing a lot and I had sex rather freely.  I worked as a server at a couple of places, but then I wasn't able to get a job when the second one ended.  Came to find out I had a "reputation", so my job prospects became nonexistent.

Now, I get that the internet is new and the issue of people ganging up on someone they perceive as "misbehaving" is certainly more visible, but its not "new" by any means.  I am an ordinary person who faced intense scrutiny, to the point I lost a place to live and couldn't get a job - well before the internet.  My "crime" was basically being single in the first case  and being sexually active in the second case
---------------
Quote
You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.

I agree that this is new for ordinary people; less so for people who've spent time in the public eye.   Internet makes the spreading of past and current "sins" a lot easier and technology today makes creating lies possible in a way it wasn't previously.

It seems to me the behaviour you are railing against is normal human behaviour and was pretty common prior to the internet.  The internet has definitely amplified it, that is easy to see.

I think this is a process and that over time a balance will be found.  In terms of misinformation, things are beginning to change with both FB and Twitter making moves to reduce its spread.  Perhaps the mobbing up and targetting of individuals will become the next behavior online platforms will address. 

Of course, this does take people like you objecting to it so strongly to drive that change, whereas people like me - basically ignoring it - are not helpful in that regard.

40 years ago, being a single female was suspect enough to get you evicted, and being female and sexually active was enough to impact employment opportunities.  I don't think that is true anymore, even in small town BC.  Perhaps 40 years from now  we'll see an entirely different "social media" experience.   (Well not me, more likely you.)  And it'll be due to people who cared enough to fight for it, so good on you.

I know, this post is a bit rambly, sorry about that. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 07, 2020, 10:43:57 am
Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny.  You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.  You didn't have

Yes, this is true.  Well... you didn't have a *global* audience to your behaviour and there wasn't homogenized morality.  We are part of that smoothing process now.

Quote
Oh come on. She's asking people to monitor the Facebook posts of her competitors to look for instances of wrongthink so that she can report them to the USA Cycling organization and complain to their sponsors. She's not "against 'the mob'",  she's leading 'the mob'.  She's the one bellowing for the villagers to get their torches and pitchforks and find the witches.

Why are the people who are using social media on one side a mob and the others not ?   

Quote
To many people, "female athletes should not have to compete against male-bodied competitors" is a reasonable opinion. Some people would claim it's hate speech.

I already covered this... it depends on what a complaint is.

All of this sounds like mob vs. mob to me.  I'm not supportive of people being fired for private comments, but public comments are fair game and the devil is always hiding there between the details.

"I think that trans women should have some criteria for inclusion" is innocuous
"Trans women are men - BAN them from sports" isn't

And... really this whole topic is not that interesting.  There's nothing new here in terms of morality.  I don't care much either way on this, as long as really repugnant speech is ostracized, and I'm sure you would agree with me where that line is.

This is the process of homogenization of morality, which is natural.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 07, 2020, 12:30:09 pm
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

 -k

Well kimmy, if you have an interest in discussing the issue then I'll start by feeling you out to see if you intend to stay rational about it. So I'll just start with the suggestion that Khomeshi was cleared of any possible crimes. And that the CBC got rid of him because of the negative appearance of him being a celebrity and being allowed to continue with CBC.

Do you know if Ghomeshi brought any lawsuits against the CBC? Or was CBC immune to a lawsuit because of the contract with Ghomeshi?
And of course the hot question is on whether any of the women involved were into S&M?

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 08, 2020, 02:55:40 am
Well kimmy, if you have an interest in discussing the issue then I'll start by feeling you out to see if you intend to stay rational about it. So I'll just start with the suggestion that Khomeshi was cleared of any possible crimes.

That isn't true.  He was acquitted on charges relating to things that occurred outside the workplace. He did not face trial for any of the workplace harassment he committed at CBC. He did face one charge for sexually assaulting a colleague at work, but it was settled with a peace-bond and formal apology from Ghomeshi.

Quote
And that the CBC got rid of him because of the negative appearance of him being a celebrity and being allowed to continue with CBC.

CBC had ample cause for firing him:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Quote
Do you know if Ghomeshi brought any lawsuits against the CBC?  Or was CBC immune to a lawsuit because of the contract with Ghomeshi?

He attempted to sue the CBC for $55 million dollars, withdrew the suit, and ended up paying CBC's legal expenses.

Quote
And of course the hot question is on whether any of the women involved were into S&M?

That's completely irrelevant. We're talking about Ghomeshi's workplace behavior, and what his victims do in the privacy of their bedrooms doesn't give Ghomeshi a license to harass them in the workplace.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 08, 2020, 01:23:16 pm
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

 -k

Thanks for your reply to this very interesting topic kimmy. Personally, I could never do what Ghomeshi did but I'll always wonder about whether any of the women involved were into S&M with him. His behaviour was disgusting to say the least.

The question becomes valid considering that he wasn't charged and prosecuted for his crimes. There's also no doubt that he did pretty much what he was accused of doing.

And my guess is that he's likely still doing it, albeit from a safer vocation that doesn't make his activities prohibitive. Do you think so? We both know that what happens in the bedrooms of Canada, remains the business of the participants.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on November 17, 2020, 09:06:42 pm
ATTENTION!  ATTENTION!  Stand by for Important Information from the Department of Inclusive Language!

Henceforth, Trans Women are to be referred to as Women!

Also

Henceforth, adult human females are to be referred to as menstruators, gestators, lactators, human milk feeders, cervix-havers, uterus-bearers, or birthing bodies.


That is all!  Go about your business!

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on November 17, 2020, 09:09:49 pm
Congratulations to Sarah McBride (https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/politics/sarah-mcbride-delaware-state-senate/index.html), first woman elected to a US State Senate!

Also, congratulations to Kamala Harris, first cervix-haver elected to the position of US Vice President.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 17, 2020, 09:27:00 pm
Congratulations to Sarah McBride (https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/politics/sarah-mcbride-delaware-state-senate/index.html), first woman elected to a US State Senate!

Also, congratulations to Kamala Harris, first cervix-haver elected to the position of US Vice President.

 -k

That'll drive the GOP senators nuts. Which washrooms will she use?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on November 18, 2020, 09:06:55 am
That'll drive the GOP senators nuts. Which washrooms will she use?

She can just decide on a daily basis which gender she feels like being, and use the appropriate bathroom. 

And, for complete equality, all the uterus-havers and penis-holders can do the same. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 09:54:01 am
I had a response to kimmy that I lost somehow...

basically an acknowledgement that 'femininity' as a proxy for womanhood is a restricting concept and people should be free to be 'feminine' or not and still be a woman
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on November 18, 2020, 10:08:53 am
She can just decide on a daily basis which gender she feels like being, and use the appropriate bathroom. 

And, for complete equality, all the uterus-havers and penis-holders can do the same.

That's an interesting point, Juniper.  This new gender-neutral language fad seems to not apply to men. Women now get referred to by their body parts or bodily functions, yet it seems like men continue to be called men. Is that the case? Can any testicle-havers weigh in?

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 11:48:10 am
That's an interesting point, Juniper.  This new gender-neutral language fad seems to not apply to men. Women now get referred to by their body parts or bodily functions, yet it seems like men continue to be called men. Is that the case? Can any testicle-havers weigh in?

 -k

I like things to be simplified.  If somebody says 'Call me Sheila' I will do that, no problem.  If they think I'm a homophobe because I won't have sex with a guy... that's an opinion.   

I don't feel like there is much call for alarm on these questions.  Note that the word 'much' is there.  As with J. Peterson's initial fears there are things to keep your eyes open on, and this is what the letter in Harpers was about (not cancel culture IMO)... making sure to keep the dialogue open.

There are always things to watch and be concerned over but they can/do come up rarely and shouldn't dominate the mainstream discussion.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on November 18, 2020, 11:55:13 am
This is a good thread to keep going! And maybe some will have gathered up enough courage to discuss Ghomeshi again, and some of his women who preferred it rough. Note I say, just 'some'.
It's a very sensitive topic for most women but with luck we have one or two that have the courage and the interest.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 12:00:29 pm
This is a good thread to keep going! And maybe some will have gathered up enough courage to discuss Ghomeshi again, and some of his women who preferred it rough. Note I say, just 'some'.
It's a very sensitive topic for most women but with luck we have one or two that have the courage and the interest.

Not really on topic nor ... anything to be said on that topic really.  Are you going to have a thread speculating on Ghomeshi's encounters ?

Sounds like a non-starter.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on November 18, 2020, 12:07:16 pm
Not really on topic nor ... anything to be said on that topic really.  Are you going to have a thread speculating on Ghomeshi's encounters ?

Sounds like a non-starter.

I don't see there being enough courage being displayed by anyone yet. And even less intelligence.

Supposing that the topic would even be allowed here?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 18, 2020, 12:19:10 pm
That's an interesting point, Juniper.  This new gender-neutral language fad seems to not apply to men. Women now get referred to by their body parts or bodily functions, yet it seems like men continue to be called men. Is that the case? Can any testicle-havers weigh in?

 -k

Seems to be the case. Don't know why. Is it a man thing or a woman thing?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 01:40:11 pm
I don't see there being enough courage being displayed by anyone yet. And even less intelligence.

Supposing that the topic would even be allowed here?

What does it have to do with courage ?  We don't know these people... speculating about their sex lives or propensity for assaulting others isn't brave.

You seem to be trolling.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on November 18, 2020, 01:51:17 pm
What does it have to do with courage ?  We don't know these people... speculating about their sex lives or propensity for assaulting others isn't brave.

You seem to be trolling.

The legal agreement and the arrangement CBC had with Ghomeshi worked to cancel out any chance of Ghomeshi pursuing a lawsuit any further.
And that's not to suggest that public sentiments were totally and completely turned in his victims' favour.

I'm simply asking for anybody to comment on how much S&M was involved in the whole issue. But not suggesting that it was a factor with all of the women. The whole thing was put down by CBC so quickly that we never did get a chance to learn the whole story.

So you're being a little bit brave, but not really very brave. Good for you!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 02:05:45 pm
1. The legal agreement and the arrangement CBC had with Ghomeshi worked to cancel out any chance of Ghomeshi pursuing a lawsuit any further.
And that's not to suggest that public sentiments were totally and completely turned in his victims' favour.

2. I'm simply asking for anybody to comment on how much S&M was involved in the whole issue. But not suggesting that it was a factor with all of the women. The whole thing was put down by CBC so quickly that we never did get a chance to learn the whole story.

3. So you're being a little bit brave, but not really very brave. Good for you!
1. Ok.  It's over five years old - go find a thread on it I guess
2. What ?  Comment on HOW MUCH ?  How it that a topic ?  It's a matter of public record go look it up.
3. You are a lot weird.  There's no controversy here, nor do you have to be brave to discuss matters of public record.  It's a dull topic.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 18, 2020, 02:18:51 pm
Seems to be the case. Don't know why. Is it a man thing or a woman thing?
It's a thing's thing and thangs with wangs always get a free pass. It's been like this forever right, we talk about cavemen days not cavewomen days.  That said what about people who choose to be a thing or an object instead of some other....thing?

At risk of going down the road monty is pointing, recall Annie Lennox's observation that some just want to abuse you and others just want to be abused.  Anythang goes.

So...in addition to yer they's, them's and their's you also have things, thangs and...thongs?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 18, 2020, 03:00:02 pm
It's a thing's thing and thangs with wangs always get a free pass. It's been like this forever right, we talk about cavemen days not cavewomen days.  That said what about people who choose to be a thing or an object instead of some other....thing?

At risk of going down the road monty is pointing, recall Annie Lennox's observation that some just want to abuse you and others just want to be abused.  Anythang goes.

So...in addition to yer they's, them's and their's you also have things, thangs and...thongs?

Oh, for sure but it's my observation that women can be a lot harder on each other than men often are. I don't pretend to know how a woman should feel if someone with a dick walks into a women's restroom.

When I was on course in Japan, female cleaning staff would routinely walk into mens washrooms to do their job without any announcement and they wouldn't put up signs to say they were there. No biggie.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on November 18, 2020, 06:37:00 pm
Oh, for sure but it's my observation that women can be a lot harder on each other than men often are. I don't pretend to know how a woman should feel if someone with a dick walks into a women's restroom.

When I was quite a bit younger and still living in small town BC (early 80s), I came to the exciting Metropolis of Vancouver to visit my sister.  Sis took me to a night club on Davie (Love? something),  where I ran across an older lady in a rather vintage looking dress in the ladies room.  After she left, I commented to my sister on how she was dressed, whereupon my sister informed me that it was a man and not a woman.  I failed to scream or pass out in shock, enjoyed the rest of my evening and did not find it necessary to write to any newspapers or call in to talk radio to complain about the declining morals of our society, led by lefty progressives.

I have, on occasion, taken my wombful body into the men's washroom when the ladies was too busy.  Nobody died. 

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on November 18, 2020, 07:22:55 pm
Sis took me to a night club on Davie (Love? something)

Luvafair!  On Seymour just by Granville Street bridge.  My god, I had some good times there in the mid 90's. 

ETA - Cross street was Davie actually if that's what you remember... between Davie and Drake.  So yes, lots of interesting people there.  Good times.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 07:43:26 pm
Wow I didn't realize Vancouver had so much night life...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on November 18, 2020, 08:13:25 pm
Wow I didn't realize Vancouver had so much night life...

Shhh, don't tell anyone.  We have enough easterners out here. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on November 18, 2020, 11:08:43 pm
Luvafair!  On Seymour just by Granville Street bridge.  My god, I had some good times there in the mid 90's. 

ETA - Cross street was Davie actually if that's what you remember... between Davie and Drake.  So yes, lots of interesting people there.  Good times.

Yup, Luvafair.  I figured someone would know but
I wasn't very familar with Vancouver, so no doubt remembered the location wrong.  Also had some good times at Roxies.  Other spots I can't recall the names, but got asked to leave at one because a couple of guys were being bothersome to my sister and I guess they were regulars and I was too loud in my objections. Or something like that.  :)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 19, 2020, 04:59:29 am
Shhh, don't tell anyone.  We have enough easterners out here.

I guess you don't understand Eastern humour
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on November 19, 2020, 05:44:21 pm
I guess you don't understand Eastern humour

Au contraire.  I was immersed in Eastern humour for 10 years (Toronto and Montreal).  That's where I honed my skills for the west coast comeback.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 19, 2020, 06:38:43 pm
Au contraire.  I was immersed in Eastern humour for 10 years (Toronto and Montreal).  That's where I honed my skills for the west coast comeback.
I was born in TO but my 45 year immersion in Vancouver Island culture has resulted in taking 'freeze you eastern bastards' to mean anywhere east of the EEC border down the middle of the Salish Sea.  I even still have an old Vancouver Island Liberation Organization tee-shirt.

Please do not confuse VILO with the ILA.

Quote
The Island Liberation Army, or ILA, is the main land warfare force of the Vancouver Island Soviet Socialist Republic. Founded by Comrade Dustinov, General Secretary of the VISSR, on August 5th 2019. The ILA is half of the armed wing of the ruling Communist Party of the VISSR, along with the Island Liberation Navy.

https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Island_Liberation_Army
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 19, 2020, 07:37:39 pm
Au contraire.  I was immersed in Eastern humour for 10 years (Toronto and Montreal).  That's where I honed my skills for the west coast comeback.

So come back then...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 19, 2020, 07:38:52 pm
I was born in TO but my 45 year immersion in Vancouver Island culture has ....


I still lie awake at night when I realize this...

I pictured you as captain highliner... then I found out you're from here.  Burst all the bubbles coming out of my pipe.  What part of TO again ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 19, 2020, 08:20:11 pm

I still lie awake at night when I realize this...

I pictured you as captain highliner... then I found out you're from here.  Burst all the bubbles coming out of my pipe.  What part of TO again ?
Oh I'm still a captain alright. I lived in North TO, usually on and within a few blocks of Yonge St from just north of Lawrence Ave almost down to Bloor St.  Hog's Hollow was still farmland when I lived there - I was 16/17 when I hitch-hiked out west - Christ it's probably closer to 48 years I've been out here now.

Went logging and fishing after a short stint as a pin-setter at the local bowling alley.  Locals thought it was great sport to launch bowling balls at the hippy down in the pit. I fit right in when I promptly fired them back up the lane at them.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 19, 2020, 10:00:44 pm
I used to set pins for a few extra bucks and remember some of the smart asses who would try and make me jump. Good on ya for firing them back.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 19, 2020, 11:28:42 pm
I used to set pins for a few extra bucks and remember some of the smart asses who would try and make me jump. Good on ya for firing them back.
Well it was either that go back to Toronto with my tail between my legs. That said I'll never forget my first couple of weeks on a yarder crew.  Everyone screamed at me and it didn't stop until they threw out a new greenhorn chokerman.  I screamed 'today man, today'! with all the gusto of a veteran too.

I made a deckhand cry a couple years ago and it nearly caused a human rights hearing.