Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: kimmy on February 11, 2020, 09:20:33 pm


Title: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 11, 2020, 09:20:33 pm
This thread is located on the traditional cyber-territory of the For'o'for Cyber-Nation!   I wish a hearty siha-siha muckachuck to our For'o'for friends!


Now that young Coonlight Graham has returned from re-education camp and has become Progressive Graham, I thought it would be helpful to have a progressive thread, so that we can all share our feelings and experiences in a safe space.  Practice our territory acknowledgements, practice pronoun checks, and that sort of thing. Sound good?  I thought so.

I'll start.  I'm Kimmy (pronouns kimza/kimza) and I identify as kim-gendered. Please respect my pronouns!  I want to spend a moment talking about my white privilege, which includes looking really pasty when I go to the beach, as well as getting sunburned quite easily.  I'm also a cultural appropriator. I eat Mexican food every week, prepared by the labor of the hard-working, underappreciated Salvadoran women at a local restaurant.  I feel bad about this, but also good, because I love tacos.

Feel free to join in!  What are you feeling guilty about today?  Share your feelings, this is a non-judgmental place. Also, please snap your fingers or do jazz-hands rather than clapping, as some members may be triggered by loud noises.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 11, 2020, 09:34:44 pm
I am now MAGA Graham.

Make America Graham Again.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 11, 2020, 09:38:25 pm
I went to Eastside Mario's and it's not very Italian at all.  Cultural appropriation.

They served sliders.  Italians don't serve mini-hamburgers.  If you want an appetizer you should be eating a plate of prosciutto and bocconcini
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2020, 09:47:27 pm
Why do Greeks own all the pizza joints?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 11, 2020, 10:04:04 pm
If my thoughts and feelings don’t conform with SJW values, will I be drowned out by loud shrill screeching?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 11, 2020, 10:53:29 pm
Pronouns give me gas.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 12, 2020, 07:24:08 am
If my thoughts and feelings don’t conform with SJW values, will I be drowned out by loud shrill screeching?

No.  Anyway how would they know your thoughts?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 12, 2020, 07:46:07 am
This thread is located on the traditional cyber-territory of the For'o'for Cyber-Nation!   I wish a hearty siha-siha muckachuck to our For'o'for friends!


Now that young Coonlight Graham has returned from re-education camp and has become Progressive Graham, I thought it would be helpful to have a progressive thread, so that we can all share our feelings and experiences in a safe space.  Practice our territory acknowledgements, practice pronoun checks, and that sort of thing. Sound good?  I thought so.

I'll start.  I'm Kimmy (pronouns kimza/kimza) and I identify as kim-gendered. Please respect my pronouns!  I want to spend a moment talking about my white privilege, which includes looking really pasty when I go to the beach, as well as getting sunburned quite easily.  I'm also a cultural appropriator. I eat Mexican food every week, prepared by the labor of the hard-working, underappreciated Salvadoran women at a local restaurant.  I feel bad about this, but also good, because I love tacos.

Feel free to join in!  What are you feeling guilty about today?  Share your feelings, this is a non-judgmental place. Also, please snap your fingers or do jazz-hands rather than clapping, as some members may be triggered by loud noises.

 -k
Why do I get the feeling you don't find humour in progressive causes you actually care about?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 09:11:35 am
Why do I get the feeling you don't find humour in progressive causes you actually care about?

Progressives can be pretty humourless.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 12, 2020, 09:29:35 am
Why do I get the feeling you don't find humour in progressive causes you actually care about?

Few do.

Well, I DO because I'm perfect.  But most people have a behavioural and moral switch they do when things are turned around on them.

How else do you explain the same people who coined the term 'snowflakes' inventing the war on Christmas ?   ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: ?Impact on February 12, 2020, 02:16:23 pm
I want to spend a moment talking about my white privilege, which includes looking really pasty when I go to the beach, as well as getting sunburned quite easily.

What [natural] color is your hair?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 25, 2020, 11:22:03 pm
What [natural] color is your hair?

That's an excellent question!  I was ABAB (assigned blonde at birth) but now I choose to identify as non-brunette (NB, or "enby").

Identifying as NB lets people know that the stereotypes they hold about other blondes do not apply to me! I can simply educate them by explaining that I identify as non-brunette, and they will realize that their assumptions are not applicable to me.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on February 27, 2020, 12:11:07 am

Feel free to join in!  What are you feeling guilty about today?  Share your feelings, this is a non-judgmental place. Also, please snap your fingers or do jazz-hands rather than clapping, as some members may be triggered by loud noises.

 -k
I feel more victimized than guilty. I was raised in Ontario by liberals where they forced me to go to free-school.  I thought I'd managed to bury the memories but they've been flooding back lately. I'm pretty sure Mrs Buck was actually a man.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 27, 2020, 11:28:57 am
I feel more victimized than guilty. I was raised in Ontario by liberals where they forced me to go to free-school.  I thought I'd managed to bury the memories but they've been flooding back lately. I'm pretty sure Mrs Buck was actually a man.

Wait.

This is the BC fishing boat guy ?!?

You were raised in Ontario ?  Did I know this ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 28, 2020, 01:45:50 am
I feel more victimized than guilty. I was raised in Ontario by liberals where they forced me to go to free-school.  I thought I'd managed to bury the memories but they've been flooding back lately. I'm pretty sure Mrs Buck was actually a man.

Thanks for sharing, eyeball!  Your feelings are valid!

A public school education is nothing to be ashamed of!  Many of Canada's great minds attended public schools! Notable examples include former PM Stephen Harper as well as yours truly!

Regarding Mrs Buck, please remember that trans women are women! Mrs Buck is a woman, even if she did have a dong. Perhaps, now that you are old enough to understand, you should reach out to Mrs Buck and let her know that you've worked through your transphobia. She would probably love to hear from her former students! She would be very proud to know that she helped you become the man you are today.

We love you, eyeball!

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: ?Impact on February 28, 2020, 02:32:22 pm
Many of Canada's great minds attended public schools! Notable examples include former PM Stephen Harper as well as yours truly!

Humility is your forté.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2020, 03:48:23 pm
Humility is your forté.

Not sure if I would include Harper in the group of "great minds". Public school bully would be more appropriate.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 28, 2020, 08:07:11 pm
Not sure if I would include Harper in the group of "great minds". Public school bully would be more appropriate.

PET and Chretien both had a bully streak in them. Whether it is good or bad depends on your point of view.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2020, 08:23:10 pm
PET and Chretien both had a bully streak in them. Whether it is good or bad depends on your point of view.

Yeah the "little guy from Shawinigan" could throw his weight around. PET was certainly the one with the highest intellectual pedigree. Harper was of course smart but he acted about as close to an autocrat as we've had in modern times. Perhaps it was to do with his lack of legal training/background.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 29, 2020, 05:54:13 pm
Should we have a law banning hurting other people's feelings? 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 29, 2020, 06:32:16 pm
No, we should add the Nword to the national anthem.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 29, 2020, 07:01:44 pm
Yeah the "little guy from Shawinigan" could throw his weight around. PET was certainly the one with the highest intellectual pedigree. Harper was of course smart but he acted about as close to an autocrat as we've had in modern times. Perhaps it was to do with his lack of legal training/background.

Harper never enacted the War Measures Act.

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-trudeau-familys-love-of-tyrants/
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: ?Impact on March 01, 2020, 01:22:16 pm
Harper never enacted the War Measures Act.

No, he arrested 1000 people in the streets of Toronto while spending a billion dollars on a last minute party for 18 of his crony buddies.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2020, 01:58:48 pm
No, he arrested 1000 people in the streets of Toronto while spending a billion dollars on a last minute party for 18 of his crony buddies.

Well that did earn the city the name "Torontonamo Bay" and resulted in at least two lawsuits against TO police, but hey, we did get a few million bucks worth of gazebos!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on March 13, 2020, 12:28:11 pm
Not sure if I would include Harper in the group of "great minds". Public school bully would be more appropriate.

Thanks for sharing, Omni.  This is a supportive community! We are here for you.

The most important thing to remember is: it gets better!  Things might seem hopeless right now, but you can make it through this if you don't give up.

There's no one reason why bullying happens. Every story is different. Many bullies push other people down because it makes them feel powerful and important. Others might feel threatened or insecure, or perhaps jealous of you. Others might be prejudiced against others. You might wonder why you've been singled out.  There's no one answer... it could be any number of reasons, and none of them are justified. You're not being bullied because there's anything wrong with you.

Don't be afraid to talk to the grown-ups in your life about this situation.  Talk to your parents or a teacher you trust. Or your scout troop leader, or your soccer coach. You don't have to be ashamed to ask for help.

There are lots of resources that you can look to for help. https://www.bullyingcanada.ca/

 Don't let anyone make you feel that you're not valuable.   You are valued. You are special. You have a great life ahead of you. Stay strong.

(https://i.imgur.com/m4Myy7h.jpg)


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 12:49:42 pm
Thanks for sharing, Omni.  This is a supportive community! We are here for you.

The most important thing to remember is: it gets better!  Things might seem hopeless right now, but you can make it through this if you don't give up.

There's no one reason why bullying happens. Every story is different. Many bullies push other people down because it makes them feel powerful and important. Others might feel threatened or insecure, or perhaps jealous of you. Others might be prejudiced against others. You might wonder why you've been singled out.  There's no one answer... it could be any number of reasons, and none of them are justified. You're not being bullied because there's anything wrong with you.

Don't be afraid to talk to the grown-ups in your life about this situation.  Talk to your parents or a teacher you trust. Or your scout troop leader, or your soccer coach. You don't have to be ashamed to ask for help.

There are lots of resources that you can look to for help. https://www.bullyingcanada.ca/

 Don't let anyone make you feel that you're not valuable.   You are valued. You are special. You have a great life ahead of you. Stay strong.

(https://i.imgur.com/m4Myy7h.jpg)


 -k

Feeling a little down today are we? I'm sure you could google up a little bedtime story from Harper to cheer things up.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on March 13, 2020, 03:02:10 pm
 ???

what just happened ?

Is this DEEP SARCASM because you young'ns don't even know.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on March 13, 2020, 04:36:05 pm
Thanks for sharing, Omni. 


First post in the last thousand that he didn’t mention Trump at least....   
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 04:50:34 pm

First post in the last thousand that he didn’t mention Trump at least....

Have I stepped on your toes trashing trump?  ;D
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 06:50:39 pm
Progressives now have #RIPJKRowling trending on Twitter.

Woke people are scum.   Woke people are dog crap.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 06:58:56 pm
After months of being pressured to add her "pronouns" to her Twitter bio, actress and former MMA fighter Gina Carano has acquiesced to the woke mob, and added her pronouns. Her pronouns are.... "beep/boop".

Here's how that went over:

(https://i.imgur.com/TbVFA48.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/1yGEhng.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/nhxitrp.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 07:01:29 pm
For the record I think Gina Carano is a goddess and I would have her children if it were biologically possible.  But it isn't, regardless of how I choose to identify.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 14, 2020, 07:11:43 pm
These "wanted" posters were found at the BLM protests in Toronto earlier this summer.  Misogyny is a-ok with progressive people... provided it's directed at the right target.

(https://i.imgur.com/tRnDl6x.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 14, 2020, 07:37:24 pm
Progressives now have #RIPJKRowling trending on Twitter.

Woke people are scum.   Woke people are dog crap.

 -k

Because she believes in transgender rights but that biological sex is not changeable.  Scandalous!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 14, 2020, 07:45:17 pm
Imagine being so disgusting of a human being as to believe that a transwoman and a woman are 2 different things.

Imagine how disgusting it would be to not have transwomen bashing the heads in of women in the same ring in the UFC.  Imagine a man bashing in the head of a transman.  Imagine the nerve of the UFC possibly creating 2 separate categories for them.

Imagine requesting a woman to be your gynecologist and getting a transwoman and you can't refuse cuz transphobia.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 14, 2020, 08:41:36 pm
Why is it news that mobs exist though ?

There are lots of idiots about, I have noticed... 

We don't tweet about the MAGA bunch much here either.  Because it's boring to be outraged all the time...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 14, 2020, 11:40:27 pm
After months of being pressured to add her "pronouns" to her Twitter bio, actress and former MMA fighter Gina Carano has acquiesced to the woke mob, and added her pronouns. Her pronouns are.... "beep/boop".

Here's how that went over:

 -k

I didn't know who she was, but I googled.  She is also a COVIDIOT and anti-BLM.  I didn't find anything about months of being pressured into anything, just that she was being deliberately antagonizing with the beep/boop which isn't all that surprising for a COVIDIOT/anti-BLM.

From what I'm getting, I think the anger goes beyond the pronouns. 

Meh, but hey she got people like me googling who she is, so I guess any publicity is good publicity.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 09:57:32 am
One thing all zealots have in common, they believe the end justifies the means. They will use tactics that they would condemn in anyone else because their cause is sacred

Demanding someone do something to show their support for you is just simple coercion. 

Three cheers for people like Rowling and Carano for having the guts to stand up to these bullies.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 10:40:14 am

Three cheers for people like Rowling and Carano for having the guts to stand up to these bullies.

Nothing you have said here justifies Rowling's position.

Basically you have said "bullies oppose her - good for her for resisting them" ... but the subject itself is not referenced.  That's the problem with tribalism in politics today.  The objectivity of the facts are absolutely not part of the discussion.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 11:30:20 am
Nothing you have said here justifies Rowling's position.

Basically you have said "bullies oppose her - good for her for resisting them" ... but the subject itself is not referenced.  That's the problem with tribalism in politics today.  The objectivity of the facts are absolutely not part of the discussion.

After reading Rowling's essay, I couldn't disagree more.

I do agree that tribalism kills objectivity.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 12:47:59 pm
After reading Rowling's essay, I couldn't disagree more.

I do agree that tribalism kills objectivity.

You disagree that you didn't post any substance ?

Fine then - where was it ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 01:45:06 pm
You disagree that you didn't post any substance ?

Fine then - where was it ?

The substance is in her essay.

I don't understand where you are coming from.

BC Cheque is one of the most open minded people in this place yet she has said she won't express support for Rowling on Twitter or even post a like because she isn't prepared to put up with the abuse that will follow. You seem to blow that off as inconsequential.

What is your problem with biological women sticking up for themselves and each other?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 01:54:12 pm
The substance is in her essay.

Ok ... you said you couldn't disagree more with me, and yet I didn't say anything about her essay.

I said that you just applauded her, by saying there were some unruly people against her... but that's true of any position.

Quote

BC Cheque is one of the most open minded people in this place yet she has said she won't express support for Rowling on Twitter or even post a like because she isn't prepared to put up with the abuse that will follow. You seem to blow that off as inconsequential.

It's two questions:

1. Is there a progressive mob that is unruly, irrational, unfair, abusive and so on ?
2. Is JK Rowling's argument sound ?

The answer to 1 is 'definitely'
The answer to 2 is 'maybe' but it has nothing to do with #1. 

Quote
What is your problem with biological women sticking up for themselves and each other?

Most of JK's essay, at least at the top, is about crazy people harassing her.   It has nothing to do with #2.  She has some good ideas, that should lead to a good debate.  It's hard to do because of #1.  She also has some bad ideas, like people should be able to write whatever they want without consequence.

My opinions only...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 02:13:26 pm
Quote
Most of JK's essay, at least at the top, is about crazy people harassing her.   It has nothing to do with #2.  She has some good ideas, that should lead to a good debate.  It's hard to do because of #1.  She also has some bad ideas, like people should be able to write whatever they want without consequence.

They can't though, can they. Anyone who doesn't toe the line gets silenced. Brutally if necessary. We are even seeing it in our universities.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 02:29:11 pm
1. They can't though, can they.
2. Anyone who doesn't toe the line gets silenced.
3. Brutally if necessary. We are even seeing it in our universities.
1. No they can't
2. I wouldn't agree with your characterization.  People who make extreme statements get stigmatized in society, not much to be said about that.
3. There are some efforts to extinguish free discussion, I agree, but not clear to me if this registers as a serious problem or not.  ie. if the scale of this warrants a general concern

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 02:40:09 pm
Three cheers for people like Rowling and Carano for having the guts to stand up to these bullies.

Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer.  She seems pretty bent on villainizing transwomen and othering them. 

I still love her and agree with her about some of the points she has raised, but I can no longer support that her agenda is just about feminism.

As for Carano, I don't put my pronouns in any of my bios but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people either and then play victim.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 02:48:11 pm
BC Cheque is one of the most open minded people in this place yet she has said she won't express support for Rowling on Twitter or even post a like because she isn't prepared to put up with the abuse that will follow. You seem to blow that off as inconsequential.


Actually, that proves MH's point about twitter and mob mentality.

I was also reluctant to express my views that Nancy Pelosi should've worn a mask at the hair salon because I was attacked for it.  People said I'm acting like she killed a baby with her bare hands.   ::)

I am also reluctant to express my views on Israel because I get branded an anti-semite.

I can be myself on this forum but lots of other places it's not worth the hassle.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 02:54:34 pm
Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer.  She seems pretty bent on villainizing transwomen and othering them. 

I still love her and agree with her about some of the points she has raised, but I can no longer support that her agenda is just about feminism.

As for Carano, I don't put my pronouns in any of my bios but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people either and then play victim.

And so was Silence of the Lambs.  I don't think any character should be taboo.  Now no one can ever write about black, gay or transgender serial killers because.... they're discriminated against in real life?  hmmm...   that's just wrong.  Don't you ever draw a cartoon of Mohammed...

Maybe with JK, once you tell her she can't write something, she's going to tell you to **** off.  A gay Dumbledore (sp?) is an example, I think.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:06:24 pm
1. Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer.  She seems pretty bent on villainizing transwomen and othering them. 

2. I still love her and agree with her about some of the points she has raised, but I can no longer support that her agenda is just about feminism.

3. As for Carano, I don't put my pronouns in any of my bios but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people either and then play victim.
1. Yes, it's hard to figure out what she's driving for.
2. I would still read her.  There are lots of great artists who are problematic.
3. There's a climate denier who publishes in the National Post, who owns a chic coffee shop in the student area.  Lots of people point out what the owner is all about, and it has nothing to do with the coffee.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:07:40 pm
And so was Silence of the Lambs.  I don't think any character should be taboo.  Now no one can ever write about black, gay or transgender serial killers because.... they're discriminated against in real life?  hmmm...   that's just wrong.  Don't you ever draw a cartoon of Mohammed...

Maybe with JK, once you tell her she can't write something, she's going to tell you to **** off.  A gay Dumbledore (sp?) is an example, I think.


She and all other authors are free to do write whatever they like.  Hey, I'm middle-eastern, have you ever seen any of us depicted nicely in movies or books?  I'm quite used to it.

However, my point is that my beliefs about Rowling evolved when I read about her depiction of her character.  I used to think she's about traditional feminism but I have to now agree that she does appear specifically anti-trans (and not just about protecting the sanctity of traditional feminism).
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 03:14:53 pm
1. No they can't


We agree on that

Quote
2. I wouldn't agree with your characterization.  People who make extreme statements get stigmatized in society, not much to be said about that.



None of those Twitter abusers use their own names? There is nothing to stigmatize or hold them accountable for their extreme statements. I'm with anyone who stands up to people like that. I don't have to agree with them.




Quote
3. There are some efforts to extinguish free discussion, I agree, but not clear to me if this registers as a serious problem or not.  ie. if the scale of this warrants a general concern

I think it does.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 03:18:20 pm

She and all other authors are free to do write whatever they like. 

But they aren't. It isn't enough to be critical or disagree, they must be cancelled, fired, extinguished, whatever.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:18:54 pm

1. None of those Twitter abusers use their own names? 

2. I think it does.

1. No.  They hide behind their handles when posting objectionable things.  Maya Forstater didn't, though.  So she got fired.
2. Why ?  Is there any way to characterize the scale of what is happening, objectively ?  Or is this the kind of thing where if it happens one single time it should be front page news ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:20:21 pm
But they aren't. It isn't enough to be critical or disagree, they must be cancelled, fired, extinguished, whatever.

People are cancelled all the time.  And people get upset with it, too.  It doesn't usually change things.

Is there some idea that right-leaning views are cancelled more than left-leaning ones ?  How can we substantiate that objectively ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:25:53 pm
But they aren't. It isn't enough to be critical or disagree, they must be cancelled, fired, extinguished, whatever.

This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:31:05 pm
3. There's a climate denier who publishes in the National Post, who owns a chic coffee shop in the student area.  Lots of people point out what the owner is all about, and it has nothing to do with the coffee.

Even though I grappled with it initially, I cancelled my COVIDIOT hairdresser even though she is good at what she does.  I don't want to give my money to someone I believe is doing harm in society.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:33:57 pm
Even though I grappled with it initially, I cancelled my COVIDIOT hairdresser even though she is good at what she does.  I don't want to give my money to someone I believe is doing harm in society.

Boycotts are a tough one.   You can't think too much about it, or you would seriously boycott everything.

As I like to say... even the unabomber went into town for nails from time to time.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 03:37:31 pm
This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.

No one is saying everyone should read her books.  What the mob wants is for her not to be allowed to write her books because they don't like her views.  Or they don't want her to be allowed to speak/twitter or whatever.   HUGE difference. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 03:38:58 pm

Is there some idea that right-leaning views are cancelled more than left-leaning ones ? 

First, your contention that Rowling's views are right-wing is pretty asinine.

Second, can you name any left-leaning speakers who have been canceled?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:42:30 pm
Boycotts are a tough one.   You can't think too much about it, or you would seriously boycott everything.

As I like to say... even the unabomber went into town for nails from time to time.

It depends.  I wouldn't boycott a fiscal conservative because I know it's just a difference of opinion.

Climate change deniers and COVIDIOTS harm society, IMO, so no I can't support them in any way.

Rowling is in that grey area.  She comes off sounding innocent, but she is perpetuating beliefs that get people killed. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 03:42:48 pm
First, your contention that Rowling's views are right-wing is pretty asinine.

I didn't characterize her views - you inferred that.

Quote
Second, can you name any left-leaning speakers who have been canceled?

Bill Maher was cancelled for calling the 911 hijackers brave.  Kathy Griffin was cancelled for making a violent and tasteless joke about the president.  The Dixie Chicks were cancelled for disparaging the president.  There are other examples too.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 03:47:21 pm
No one is saying everyone should read her books.  What the mob wants is for her not to be allowed to write her books because they don't like her views.  Or they don't want her to be allowed to speak/twitter or whatever.   HUGE difference.

I haven't seen that, but if true, I don't agree with censoring.  I don't think she's crossed the line into hate speech. 

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 04:00:06 pm
1. No.  They hide behind their handles when posting objectionable things.  Maya Forstater didn't, though.  So she got fired.
2. Why ?  Is there any way to characterize the scale of what is happening, objectively ?  Or is this the kind of thing where if it happens one single time it should be front page news ?

1. I read the ruling. Very sad.
2. Yes, the Forstater ruling is a perfect example of what is happening. objectively.
 


Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 04:09:41 pm
This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.

She isn't free to say whatever she likes, you said so yourself with your own reluctance to say what you think on Twitter.

This idea that anonymous Twits can get people fired, cancelled whatever is a new phenomena and a disturbing one. It was a very difficult thing to do before the internet and social media.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 04:15:46 pm
She isn't free to say whatever she likes, you said so yourself with your own reluctance to say what you think on Twitter.

This idea that anonymous Twits can get people fired, cancelled whatever is a new phenomena and a disturbing one. It was a very difficult thing to do before the internet and social media.


Being free to do something and being reluctant to do it are two different things.

Like I said, I also chose not express my opinions about Nancy Pelosi's maskless blowout.  It speaks more about my passivity and the medium of social media than it does my *freedom* to engage in controversial opinions.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 04:41:56 pm

Being free to do something and being reluctant to do it are two different things.

Like I said, I also chose not express my opinions about Nancy Pelosi's maskless blowout.  It speaks more about my passivity and the medium of social media than it does my *freedom* to engage in controversial opinions.

Your freedom comes at a high price if it has to be subjected to a bunch of abusive anonymous assholes.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 04:52:39 pm
Your freedom comes at a high price if it has to be subjected to a bunch of abusive anonymous assholes.

Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:01:58 pm
Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

That's why I'm not on Twitter or Facebook.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 05:04:50 pm
That's why I'm not on Twitter or Facebook.

I can appreciate that.  I'm b) I abstain from controversial opinions.  When I was younger I would be c) but I don't have the energy anymore.

This forum is as combative as I get. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 05:36:00 pm
1. I read the ruling. Very sad.
2. Yes, the Forstater ruling is a perfect example of what is happening. objectively.

I don't think I agree.  People are fired for objectionable comments constantly.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 05:37:03 pm
She isn't free to say whatever she likes, you said so yourself with your own reluctance to say what you think on Twitter.

This idea that anonymous Twits can get people fired, cancelled whatever is a new phenomena and a disturbing one.

It's not new at all.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:39:45 pm
I can appreciate that.  I'm b) I abstain from controversial opinions.  When I was younger I would be c) but I don't have the energy anymore.

This forum is as combative as I get.

What isn't controversial these days?
Same here, it's been almost two years since I posted on MLW.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:41:15 pm
It's not new at all.

Sure is.

People had to write letters to the editor and be interviewed in person before the internet and social media.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 05:43:59 pm
Sure is.

People had to write letters to the editor and be interviewed in person before the internet and social media.
How about the examples I cited?  The Dixie Chicks?  Were people complaining on the internet?

What about people who expressed PRIVATE political views, that got fired?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 05:53:51 pm
How about the examples I cited?  The Dixie Chicks?  Were people complaining on the internet?


Probably, it was 2003 after all.

Quote
What about people who expressed PRIVATE political views, that got fired?

What about them? Who did they express those "PRIVATE" views too?
Were they harassed on the internet because of those views?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 15, 2020, 06:37:10 pm
Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

It's a giant waste of time to complain on twitter.  Nobody cares.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on September 15, 2020, 06:50:26 pm
I don't think I agree.  People are fired for objectionable comments constantly.

Except what is "questionable" now is generally pretty tame and mundane.  "I don't think a transgender female is the equivalent of a female with XX chromosomes".    oooooh....  how terrible.   ::)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 07:01:25 pm


What about them? Who did they express those "PRIVATE" views too?
Were they harassed on the internet because of those views?

No, they expressed their views to friends, who told others.

Why aren't those examples cancel culture?

Because people called people rather than tweeting?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 07:02:33 pm
Except what is "questionable" now is generally pretty tame and mundane.  "I don't think a transgender female is the equivalent of a female with XX chromosomes".    oooooh....  how terrible.   ::)

Those are your values.  You are saying cancel culture means cancelling an opinion you happen to agree with.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 15, 2020, 07:09:35 pm
It's a giant waste of time to complain on twitter.  Nobody cares.

I'm wondering if this is a reason things like Twitter will die a slow death, either that or just become echo chambers for the QAnon set and other nut cases as rational people abandon them.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 07:32:06 pm
I'm wondering if this is a reason things like Twitter will die a slow death, either that or just become echo chambers for the QAnon set and other nut cases as rational people abandon them.

Twitter is actually a lot more superior to facebook when it comes to moderating insults and misinformation.  They suspend users all the time for harassment and insults.  They also don't allow misinformation, unlike Zuckerberg.

Facebook will need to give in to pressure as well, but they wing nuts go and make start their own sites like parler where in the name of 'free speech' they can spew untruths all they want.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 07:35:33 pm
It's a giant waste of time to complain on twitter.  Nobody cares.
 

It's a giant waste of time to complain anywhere on the internet, not just twitter.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 15, 2020, 07:40:43 pm
It depends.  I wouldn't boycott a fiscal conservative because I know it's just a difference of opinion.

Climate change deniers and COVIDIOTS harm society, IMO, so no I can't support them in any way.

Rowling is in that grey area.  She comes off sounding innocent, but she is perpetuating beliefs that get people killed.

JK isn't perpetuating any such beliefs.  The beliefs that get people killed go something like this:  "I hate you and therefore I want you to die and so I'm going to kill you".

Jk doesn't hate anyone and isn't calling for violence and doesn't want anyone dead.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 15, 2020, 07:53:15 pm
JK isn't perpetuating any such beliefs.  The beliefs that get people killed go something like this:  "I hate you and therefore I want you to die and so I'm going to kill you".

Jk doesn't hate anyone and isn't calling for violence and doesn't want anyone dead.

Trans women are targeted and murdered at alarming rates as a result of hate crimes.

Perpetuating the stereotype that they are just aggressive men pretending to be women while innocently claiming it's all about feminism does feed into the mentality that gets trans women killed.

ETA, but I agree it's not her objective which is why I said it's a grey area.  She inadvertently plays into the hate.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 15, 2020, 08:02:39 pm

Perpetuating the stereotype that they are just aggressive men pretending to be women while innocently claiming it's all about feminism does feed into the mentality that gets trans women killed.

It's not evident to many people how offensive it is to make anti-trans comments of any level.  Most people (something like 70%) are comfortable with trans people and a minority is very vocal in defending them.  As such, when there's a large reaction (like someone getting fired) folks who are neutral think there's some kind of angry minority that has sway over the issue. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 02:42:42 am
Initially I was team Rowling but apparently her newest book is about a transvestite serial killer. 

That's a gross distortion of the book.  The "transvestite serial killer" isn't a major character in the book, he's among a rogue's gallery of characters the principals talk to during their investigation.  Nor is he depicted as transgender or even transvestite.  He's depicted as a cisgender man who used a disguise to get close to a victim.

Quote
The 'evidence' that provoked the malice was so flimsy, even Twitter should have been embarrassed to publish it. Pink News, which dominates the LGBTQ+ outrage market, gave the case for the prosecution. According to the first review, 'JK Rowling’s latest book is about a murderous cis man who dresses as a woman to kill his victims', it announced.

It is about nothing of the sort, I thought. And I could say that with authority because I had just finished a review copy of Troubled Blood, the fifth novel in Rowling’s Cormoran Strike series, as research for a long piece on her politics and art I'm working on for the Critic. No honest person who takes the trouble to read it can see the novel as transphobic. But then honest people are hard to find in a culture war.

The men and women pouring out their loathing of Rowling online could not have read the unreleased book: not that their ignorance bothered them in slightest, as no mob on the rampage in history has ever stopped to read a novel.

One person had read it, however, a reviewer for the Daily Telegraph. And it was his assertion that set off the hate fest. The meat of the book, he declared is 'the investigation into a cold case: the disappearance of GP Margot Bamborough in 1974, thought to have been a victim of Dennis Creed, a transvestite serial killer. One wonders what critics of Rowling’s stance on trans issues will make of a book whose moral seems to be: never trust a man in a dress'.

...

It amounts to this. On page 75, Strike is listening to the son of an investigating officer tell him what he knows about Creed.

'He had his failures you know. Penny Hiskett, she got away from him and gave the police a description in ’71, but that didn’t help them much. She said he was dark and stocky, because he was wearing a wig at the time and all padded out in a woman’s coat. They caught him in the end because of Melody Bower. Nightclub singer, looked like Diana Ross. Creed got chatting to her at the bus stop, offered her a lift, then tried to drag her into the van when she said no. She escaped, gave the police a proper description and told them he’d said his house was of Paradise Park.'

Creed mentions the advantage of lipstick and a wig in making women think he’s 'a harmless old queer' when Strike interviews him, and that’s about that. A novelist uses a passing detail to explain how a murderer got close to one of his victims – for presumably the victim who gave the police a 'proper description' did not see him in a woman’s coat and wig. A critic, unintentionally or not, whips up a rage, and thousands allow themselves to be whipped. Pavlov’s dogs showed more critical independence.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/j-k-rowling-s-latest-novel-isn-t-transphobic-


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 05:42:48 am
Didn't JK say that her book touched on this topic ?
"On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself"
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:02:57 am
Didn't JK say that her book touched on this topic ?
"On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series, set in the present day, and my fictional female detective is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself"

I'm pretty sure she meant she was trying to learn about today's gender ideology so she could write about a 20s-30s woman who has grown up immersed in this environment.

 Not researching how a 1970s serial killer might use a disguise.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:14:26 am
I didn't know who she was, but I googled.  She is also a COVIDIOT and anti-BLM.  I didn't find anything about months of being pressured into anything, just that she was being deliberately antagonizing with the beep/boop which isn't all that surprising for a COVIDIOT/anti-BLM.

From what I'm getting, I think the anger goes beyond the pronouns. 

As far as I can tell her crime against BLM was refusing to put "BLM/ACAB" in her bio when activists demanded it, and blocking people who harrassed her about it.


Meh, but hey she got people like me googling who she is, so I guess any publicity is good publicity.

She's pretty well known and doesn't need to get internet clowns riled up to get publicity for her career. She's got some big movie credits, and was the most famous female fighter on the planet for quite a while too. She's currently on Disney/Starwars "The Mandalorian", which I guess is why SJW types feel she owes them a declaration of fealty.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:40:49 am
This is very much like the obfuscating 'free speech' with 'free from repercussions of public perception'.

She's free to say whatever she likes.  People are free to not read her books just as much.

Nobody is suggesting that people need to buy Rowling's books or that she's being silenced if people won't buy her books.  Book stores don't need to carry them either-- some have taken her books off their shelves, and good for them I guess.

But the campaign to destroy her reputation based on misrepresentation of her views and inaccurate claims about her work goes beyond that. It's pretty similar to the fake news campaigns being waged in politics. "JKR is transphobic, she wrote a book about a trans serial killer!" is about the same level of discourse as "Candidate X has ties to Islamic extremists!", "Candidate Y wants to disband the police and leave the streets to the gangs!"  "OMG it's true I read it on Facebook plz share this info with everyone!"  As the saying goes, lies can run halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes laced up, and we see that in social media all the time.


And obviously the deluge of threats of violence and gendered slurs directed toward Rowling speaks for itself. As does the "#RIPJKRowling" hashtag that was trending this week.

Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat.


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 10:59:12 am
Why is it news that mobs exist though ?

There are lots of idiots about, I have noticed... 

We don't tweet about the MAGA bunch much here either.  Because it's boring to be outraged all the time...

I feel like pretty much everybody is aware of how disgusting the MAGA bunch are.  Even the MAGA people themselves-- they seem to be somewhat proud of it in fact.

I am not sure many progressives realize how much disgusting behavior is being carried out under the banner of "social justice".  I think that some people would prefer to turn a blind eye, or even rationalize/justify it.

And I think that many progressives have become so obsessed with the idea of intersectionality that they don't see a problem with plain old misogyny unless there are trans people or POC on the receiving end.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 11:39:02 am
I feel like pretty much everybody is aware of how disgusting the MAGA bunch are.  Even the MAGA people themselves-- they seem to be somewhat proud of it in fact.

I am not sure many progressives realize how much disgusting behavior is being carried out under the banner of "social justice".  I think that some people would prefer to turn a blind eye, or even rationalize/justify it.

And I think that many progressives have become so obsessed with the idea of intersectionality that they don't see a problem with plain old misogyny unless there are trans people or POC on the receiving end.
 

But why do we need to know ?  The MAGA bunch likes to post pictures of people throwing things at cops etc.
a
As a 'public' - what is the function of having a group shamed by showing behaviour of individuals in that group ?  I'm not saying there's no function at all.   I'm asking what it is.

When you think about it, individual incidents of racism are elevated and called out ie. "can you believe THIS happens in Canada in this day and age ?".

Nobody thinks much about that,maybe because even a single incident is a shameful thing and nobody believes that such behaviour is generally acceptable.  But what are the new parameters around group behaviour ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 01:05:16 pm
No, they expressed their views to friends, who told others.

Why aren't those examples cancel culture?

Because people called people rather than tweeting?

When could private political views get you fired in Canada? Methinks that should be a slam dunk before any kind of tribunal.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2020, 01:25:16 pm
It's not evident to many people how offensive it is to make anti-trans comments of any level.

If you were a woman who had been assaulted or raped by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?  Would you trust 100% of these transwomen to actually be trans women?  Have you ever heard of any examples of men doing weird and creepy things to get off?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 01:33:24 pm
When could private political views get you fired in Canada? Methinks that should be a slam dunk before any kind of tribunal.

Yes, it has happened and it's why academic freedom councils were invented.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 01:34:51 pm
If you were a woman who had been assaulted or raped by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?

Why are you asking such an irrelevant question ?

It's like Capital Punishment debate, where people asked 'if it was YOUR family member' etc. ? 

No, I wouldn't feel comfortable... is that helpful ?

Now, let's get back to the discussion...
 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 01:55:43 pm
Welcome to the internet era, anonymity will do that.  People say things online that they would never do in person, but for good or bad, this is how social media works and it's our new reality.

People have the *freedom* to a) not engage in social media.  b)  abstain from controversial opinions on social media.  c) battle it out if they have the energy.

It's not going to go away though, so complaining about it is futile.

I certainly feel that most social media is a giant flaming ball of crap and have no wish to be involved personally. However, Twitter is apparently supposed to be a marketplace of ideas. It's used by all the politicians to express their views and interact with the public.  It's used by celebrities to promote their new endeavors and interact with their fans.   If women are being pushed out of this platform by intimidation and threats, they're being pushed out of the marketplace of ideas.

Here's a story from a pub owner in Sheffield England who clicked "like" on a Tweet that somebody apparently felt was "problematic".  A trans activist spotted the egregious offense, and contacted a brewery, demanding to have her fired.  The brewery forwarded the complaint to her, which resulted in this response:

https://theharlequinpub.wordpress.com/2020/09/10/formal-complaints-gross-misconduct-and-a-swift-resolution/

It's funny, in the sense that the trans activist was hilariously mistaken about the brewery's ability to fire the bar owner. On the other hand, it's a little disturbing to see the extent to which some activists are going in their efforts to silence dissent.  As I keep saying, the purpose of a witch-hunt isn't to kill one witch, it's to scare other women into compliance. The trans activist couldn't get the pub owner fired, and the woke mob hasn't been able to silence JKRowling. But if you're a typical woman, you probably don't own your own business, and you probably aren't a famous billionaire who can do whatever she likes.  If you're a typical woman, the potential to get in trouble of some kind for "liking" the wrong post on Twitter is pretty scary.

And, this isn't just in the online world. Fear about the consequences of being branded transphobic has women afraid in real life too.  In the other thread I mentioned the story of the woman who left her yoga studio because she was afraid that she'd be branded a transphobe if she complained about the trans-woman staring at her in the shower. I've read several accounts from young lesbians who were either thrown out of their LGBTQ2SIA+ student groups because they were deemed transphobes for not wanting to date transwomen, or who had been coerced into dating transwomen out of fear of being ostracized if they said no. Some time ago in the other thread I posted the results of a survey of UK lesbians of which a significant percentage had experienced consequences after saying "no" to dating transwomen. Doxxing, employers contacted, exclusion from LGBT groups, this sort of thing.

In this environment where people shoot first and ask questions later, being labeled a transphobe is a quick way to get shot at.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 16, 2020, 02:01:37 pm
If you were a woman who had been assaulted or raped by a man would you feel comfortable with a 6'3" transwoman (biological male) with a **** and balls naked in the changeroom with you?  Would you trust 100% of these transwomen to actually be trans women?  Have you ever heard of any examples of men doing weird and creepy things to get off?

All the transpeople I've met are pretty considerate about the comfort level of others.

Would any woman who'd been assaulted or raped by a man be comfortable with a 6'3" man in her immediate vicinity, clothed or not?

Yes, men can do creepy things - including installing spy cameras/peepholes in female-only spaces, positioning cell phones  beneath stairs to record women in skirts as they use the stairs, standing outside bedroom windows, using binoculars/telescopes to look at women through more distant windows, presumably ising drones and cameras for the same purpose.  In order to protect women at all times, should we outlaw phones, caneras, binoculars, telescopes?   Or dictate that men cannot be within 2 kms of women at any time, in case of a man being a creep or a woman being frightened?

And, why is there no concern about a man being traumatized by being exposed to a woman with bare boobs and exposed **** in a man's changing area?  Are all male experiences with women invariably positive?  Do all men just automatically welcome naked women into their space?  Are no women ever predatory, violent or just plain creepy?

The argument put forth about the threat of trans-male in a female space strikes me as fear-mongering because this narrative presents women as helpless and needing protection from what is, realistically, a pretty minor threat.  Using the protection of women/children to galvanize people to some action is pretty standard propaganda.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 16, 2020, 02:11:43 pm
But why do we need to know ?  The MAGA bunch likes to post pictures of people throwing things at cops etc.

As a 'public' - what is the function of having a group shamed by showing behaviour of individuals in that group ?  I'm not saying there's no function at all.   I'm asking what it is.

When you think about it, individual incidents of racism are elevated and called out ie. "can you believe THIS happens in Canada in this day and age ?".

Nobody thinks much about that,maybe because even a single incident is a shameful thing and nobody believes that such behaviour is generally acceptable.  But what are the new parameters around group behaviour ?

I think that when people ask "can you believe this racist crap still happens in Canada in 2020?" it stigmatizes and marginalizes unacceptable behavior. Which is good, right?



There's lots of things I can't believe still happen in 2020.  I can't believe women are being threatened with physical violence for expressive their opinions in 2020. I can't believe that lesbians are being told they need to learn to accept pen1s in 2020.  I can't believe lesbians are being threatened with corrective **** in 2020.  I think that actual progressives would be concerned by those things as well.  I think that real progressives would want to know about that and denounce it.


Also, I think more attention to this trend would perhaps get Twitter and similar businesses to put some thought into improving their platform.  I would think that if people paid more attention to how normalized misogyny has become, companies that care about their public image would want to do something to address it.



 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 02:17:11 pm
I miss British pubs. If I'm ever in Sheffield, I'll check the Harlequin out.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 16, 2020, 02:38:53 pm

Also, I think more attention to this trend would perhaps get Twitter and similar businesses to put some thought into improving their platform.  I would think that if people paid more attention to how normalized misogyny has become, companies that care about their public image would want to do something to address it.

 -k

I'm not on twitter, so don't feel I can say much about the bullying that goes on there.  But I wonder what you think they should do to address this, exactly?  If they remove those 'bullying' posts, they'll be accused of interfering with "free speech" and the people prone to bullying will go to Reddit (I suppose they're already there), FB, snapchat, instagram, etc., - wherever they feel they can express their disapproval.   

I think there are a lot of moderate people in the world; I think they're the majority.   I also think they're the ones least likely to engage in conflict online, so the majority of what we see in the online world are the extremes of any viewpoint.  It's easy to forget that those are not really representative of what most people think.  I think its easy to see a problem as bigger than it is, if too much attention is paid to what is happening online.  It also seems to me that what was big news/scandal/event in the online world this week is practically forgotten in a few months time.

I think at some point, companies, not media companies, but just regular companies, will have to take a stand about firing as a result of social media mob action.  They should, perhaps, devise a 'standard' for which people can be fired - outright cruelty to animals, making death threats, online or not, getting arrested for racism, spousal abuse, sexual assault - but not for being mobbed on Twitter or any other platform for an expressed opinion.  I think more moderate people should find a way to speak up if they see mobbing on social media - but I don't have much hope for that, since yeah - who likes to deal with all that conflict?  Not many.

There is a lot about social media that has to change, but I do think the priority has to be the spread of misinformation online.  It's not that this issue of online bullying/cancel culture isn't important, but in my view it's less of a priority than misinformation that can cause rather more societal harm than whether JK Rowling (or anyone else) loses book sales. 

Btw, as a result of this thread and in a roundabout way her attackers, I'll be looking to read her new series.  Kind of an unintended consequence of this, eh? 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 02:51:41 pm
I think that when people ask "can you believe this racist crap still happens in Canada in 2020?" it stigmatizes and marginalizes unacceptable behavior. Which is good, right?

I gave some parameters as to why it could be good, yes.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 03:21:33 pm
I gave some parameters as to why it could be good, yes.

But it's not good for some things, like drawing conclusions about a group. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2020, 05:01:29 pm
Many transgender women want the right to use female change-rooms and compete in women's sports.  Many biological women want the right to not have to compete against biological men in sports or have them in a change-room when they're both naked.

So we have a conflict in rights.  We also have to acknowledge that transwomen and biological women aren't the same and will never be the same and should be treated as such in circumstances where it matters, like sports.  If a woman doesn't want a transwoman being their gynecologist that's their right, just as it's their right not to want a male one.  Men are discriminated against all the time.  Female-only gyms for instance.  If a woman doesn't want to wax your legs with your dick and balls in her face, she has that right.  Anyone who insists is a disgusting narcissist piece of crap.  Any transwoman who takes pride in beating women in sports is a moron.

Personally I don't care, as I'm neither a trans person or a women, so whatever.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
It's not necessarily a right to refuse a doctor because you don't like their group...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 06:43:08 pm
Fortunately there are testosterone limits for women's sport. It doesn't address the gender issue specifically but at least it is one ceiling.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 16, 2020, 07:31:11 pm
It's not necessarily a right to refuse a doctor because you don't like their group...

If a woman doesn't want a man touching her punani, she has that right to refuse.  Any reasonable man or transwoman should be able to understand that.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 16, 2020, 07:44:14 pm
If a woman doesn't want a man touching her punani, she has that right to refuse.  Any reasonable man or transwoman should be able to understand that.

Well... I am just saying that your general assertion isn't clear to me.  Could *I* refuse a trans doctor ?  A gay doctor ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 16, 2020, 08:11:01 pm
Well... I am just saying that your general assertion isn't clear to me.  Could *I* refuse a trans doctor ?  A gay doctor ?

You can refuse any doctor you want, you don't have to give a reason. Of course you might not get treated as a result. Your choice.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 01:32:41 am
I'm not on twitter, so don't feel I can say much about the bullying that goes on there.  But I wonder what you think they should do to address this, exactly?  If they remove those 'bullying' posts, they'll be accused of interfering with "free speech" and the people prone to bullying will go to Reddit (I suppose they're already there), FB, snapchat, instagram, etc., - wherever they feel they can express their disapproval.   

Twitter already has a zero tolerance policy in regard to speech they consider transphobic. Why can't they do the same in regard to violent misogyny?

I think there are a lot of moderate people in the world; I think they're the majority.   I also think they're the ones least likely to engage in conflict online, so the majority of what we see in the online world are the extremes of any viewpoint.  It's easy to forget that those are not really representative of what most people think.  I think its easy to see a problem as bigger than it is, if too much attention is paid to what is happening online.  It also seems to me that what was big news/scandal/event in the online world this week is practically forgotten in a few months time.

I do think that for the most part people overestimate how much power these online mobs actually have.  Pen1s News has been gleefully predicting the demise of JKR's book sales due to the online controversy; her books have actually surged in popularity (with the help of the pandemic of course).  Angry incel dudes organized boycotts and review-bombing for Captain Marvel; it was a gigantic hit.

But, if you're a small business or a private citizen, can you risk it?

I think at some point, companies, not media companies, but just regular companies, will have to take a stand about firing as a result of social media mob action.  They should, perhaps, devise a 'standard' for which people can be fired - outright cruelty to animals, making death threats, online or not, getting arrested for racism, spousal abuse, sexual assault - but not for being mobbed on Twitter or any other platform for an expressed opinion.  I think more moderate people should find a way to speak up if they see mobbing on social media - but I don't have much hope for that, since yeah - who likes to deal with all that conflict?  Not many.

If you run a pub near campus, and students come to you and say "this employee of yours said some very hateful things on social media, and we are organizing a student boycott unless you fire her," wouldn't that be scary?  You could talk to your employee and get her side of the story, but if you decide that what she said isn't something she should be fired over... what then?  Can you risk losing the business from the college students?   You could hope that they're bluffing, or that most of the college students wouldn't actually know or care that there's a boycott going on.  And it might turn out that way... but what if it didn't? 

There is a lot about social media that has to change, but I do think the priority has to be the spread of misinformation online.  It's not that this issue of online bullying/cancel culture isn't important, but in my view it's less of a priority than misinformation that can cause rather more societal harm than whether JK Rowling (or anyone else) loses book sales. 

I agree. The potential to impact elections, the spread of conspiracy theories and false medical information, there are potentially some very dangerous things going on.

Btw, as a result of this thread and in a roundabout way her attackers, I'll be looking to read her new series.  Kind of an unintended consequence of this, eh?

Me too. I have never bought a JKR book before, but what I've heard about her current "Robert Galbraith" books did make me somewhat interested. The new one is apparently selling very well for the moment, in spite of (or perhaps with the help of) the controversy.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 01:52:36 am
He's depicted as a cisgender man who used a disguise to get close to a victim.

That's even worse, yikes.  Talk about playing on fears about transgender women.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 02:01:49 am
Nobody is suggesting that people need to buy Rowling's books or that she's being silenced if people won't buy her books.  Book stores don't need to carry them either-- some have taken her books off their shelves, and good for them I guess.

But the campaign to destroy her reputation based on misrepresentation of her views and inaccurate claims about her work goes beyond that. It's pretty similar to the fake news campaigns being waged in politics. "JKR is transphobic, she wrote a book about a trans serial killer!" is about the same level of discourse as "Candidate X has ties to Islamic extremists!", "Candidate Y wants to disband the police and leave the streets to the gangs!"  "OMG it's true I read it on Facebook plz share this info with everyone!"  As the saying goes, lies can run halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes laced up, and we see that in social media all the time.


And obviously the deluge of threats of violence and gendered slurs directed toward Rowling speaks for itself. As does the "#RIPJKRowling" hashtag that was trending this week.

Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat.


 -k


You're taking twitter way too seriously.  People shout down their opponents on every topic, whether it's vaccines, Bernie Sanders or COVID.  The most ridiculous hashtags start to trend.

There is no conspiracy.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 08:16:38 am
You can refuse any doctor you want, you don't have to give a reason. Of course you might not get treated as a result. Your choice.

I suppose so.  But it's NOT the same as a "right".  The difference is subtle but if we're labelling things let's make sure we agree, since conclusions can be made about the legal foundations we are laying down in our discussion.

If you have a "right" to refuse a doctor without stating a reason, then that is your right.  If you have to give a reason, and that reason must be valid then I doubt the courts would guarantee you a right to discriminate there. 

Very nebulous and overthought but there you are  ;D
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 08:39:31 am
I suppose so.  But it's NOT the same as a "right".  The difference is subtle but if we're labelling things let's make sure we agree, since conclusions can be made about the legal foundations we are laying down in our discussion.

If you have a "right" to refuse a doctor without stating a reason, then that is your right.  If you have to give a reason, and that reason must be valid then I doubt the courts would guarantee you a right to discriminate there. 

Very nebulous and overthought but there you are  ;D

You don’t have to give a reason at all, nor should you have to. You might just think they are a crappy doctor or don’t like their bedside manner. It doesn’t matter. Depending on the circumstances you might have trouble finding another but that is up to you.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 12:28:47 pm
That's even worse, yikes.  Talk about playing on fears about transgender women.

How is it different from anyone else who poses as something to get close to a victim? Most sexual predators do it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 01:22:46 pm
Fortunately there are testosterone limits for women's sport. It doesn't address the gender issue specifically but at least it is one ceiling.

Whew.... given the money and attention given to the WNBA by straight white men, I'll bet we're all relieved by this...  ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 01:51:22 pm
Whew.... given the money and attention given to the WNBA by straight white men, I'll bet we're all relieved by this...  ???

My concern is for women who want to compete on an even field, not what straight white men like.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 02:30:16 pm
My concern is for women who want to compete on an even field, not what straight white men like.

Why do you care ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 17, 2020, 04:55:11 pm
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 06:26:24 pm
Why do you care ?

On a personal level, I have two grand daughters who play rugby at a high level. Both have represented BC in age group interprovincial competitions and the USA Sevens tournaments in Las Vegas. The oldest plays for UBC, or at least did before covid but they are still training and practicing without contact. Why should she have to go up against someone with a dick who decides to call himself a woman, outweighs her by 50 lbs, has a testosterone level ten times as high and probably doesn't even train as hard? It's a contact sport, not tiddlywinks.

On a general level, women's testosterone levels range between 0.12 to 1.79 nanomoles,  men range from 7.7 to 29.4 nanomoles. The IAAF has set a maximum of 5 nanomoles for women athletes, still way above the normal range for women, including elite athletes. An athlete who is above that is  allowed to lower their level by surgical or chemical means not specified. A CIS woman who used chemical means to raise their level to that maximum allowed would be slapped with a doping ban quicker than they could blink.

Why is it always women who are having to deal with this bullshit?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on September 17, 2020, 06:42:31 pm
Why is it always women who are having to deal with this bullshit?
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around. I get a sense of what a reasonable conservative has to put up with in a tent big enough for Q-Anon.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:24:32 pm

(https://i.imgur.com/cFavaDl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/zIycxeK.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/fKGf0Qc.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:27:01 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/YumT4w8.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:31:55 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/QEoGUn8.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 07:48:18 pm
Quoting tweets seems like a weird way to post for this place  ???
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on September 17, 2020, 07:52:13 pm
So, they're not making a whole lot of sense to this cisgender, heteronormative (more or less) female-identifying person.  The conversation looks like people trying to outdo each other's jargon.  While this may be of interest to committed activists, most people are gonna just ignore it, imo. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 07:54:26 pm
Quoting tweets seems like a weird way to post for this place  ???

I originally started this thread to make fun of woke-people culture, and those tweets tickled my fancy.

So, they're not making a whole lot of sense to this cisgender, heteronormative (more or less) female-identifying person.  The conversation looks like people trying to outdo each other's jargon.  While this may be of interest to committed activists, most people are gonna just ignore it, imo. 

Anna Slatz is doing satire. The other person is dead serious.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 08:20:59 pm
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around.

Maybe because they are responsible for a lot of it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 08:26:18 pm
Whew.... given the money and attention given to the WNBA by straight white men, I'll bet we're all relieved by this...  ???

I assume you're asking this in an academic sense, because only a king sized **** would suggest that since straight white men don't give a **** about women's sports it doesn't matter to anybody.

Why do you care ?

Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?


I am guessing that you're trying to advance the notion that this is concern-trolling. That since straight white men don't watch WNBA on TV, straight white men who claim to be concerned about fairness for female athletes are not being sincere.

Jesse Brown advanced a similar argument in THEGREATESTPODCASTEVER: "LOLOLOL, these right wingers suddenly pretending they care about marginalized, racialized aestheticians! When did right wingers start caring about racialized, marginalized women?"  I said at the time, and I still believe this to be true: that is a spectacularly dumb argument to advance because it begs the question: don't YOU care about those racialized, marginalized women?

I've never understood the accusation of "concern trolling" as a debate tactic.  Even if a subject isn't a personal concern for the person making the argument, the subject is a personal concern for somebody, and we're still allowed to be concerned about issues that don't directly affect us.  If you're mocking somebody's concern for an issue, you're making an implicit argument that the issue isn't worth being concerned over.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 08:37:19 pm
I assume you're asking this in an academic sense, because only a king sized **** would suggest that since straight white men don't give a **** about women's sports it doesn't matter to anybody.

I'm harkening back to the boys at The Rebel and The Sun who are using these things to fuel angertainment.

Quote
Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

Yes so I 'liked' his comment and explanation ok ?

Quote
If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

I have said umpteen times plus two that I don't want to shut down the debate.

Quote
You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?

I think I explained this at the top of our looong discussion on this.

Quote
I am guessing that you're trying to advance the notion that this is concern-trolling. That since straight white men don't watch WNBA on TV, straight white men who claim to be concerned about fairness for female athletes are not being sincere.

Bingo.

Quote
Jesse Brown advanced a similar argument in THEGREATESTPODCASTEVER: "LOLOLOL, these right wingers suddenly pretending they care about marginalized, racialized aestheticians! When did right wingers start caring about racialized, marginalized women?"  I said at the time, and I still believe this to be true: that is a spectacularly dumb argument to advance because it begs the question: don't YOU care about those racialized, marginalized women?

Sure - and I say that they should host the debate.  I am listening to the points you and JKR are making.  I am NOT getting angry over Jessica Janiv, JKR, you, or anybody who has an opinion AND a stake in it. 

The people who profit from angertainment are my (And Canadaland and Mary Rogan's) targets.  There is nothing in there where they say that woman can't raise the concerns that you share.

Quote
I've never understood the accusation of "concern trolling" as a debate tactic.  Even if a subject isn't a personal concern for the person making the argument, the subject is a personal concern for somebody, and we're still allowed to be concerned about issues that don't directly affect us.  If you're mocking somebody's concern for an issue, you're making an implicit argument that the issue isn't worth being concerned over.

It's not concern, it's concern TROLLING.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on September 17, 2020, 08:49:42 pm
I'd like to know why/how the left got the job of having to carry this horsehit around. I get a sense of what a reasonable conservative has to put up with in a tent big enough for Q-Anon.

The left is about justice and fairness.  The left is about sticking up for the little guy and trying to make things better for the people who are worst off.  That's a good thing. 

I think all of us would agree that trans people deserve to be safe and to have legal protection against discrimination.  But some of the things that trans people and their allies are calling for goes beyond what many people see as being reasonable or fair.   Even in very liberal California, polling says that most people don't think transwomen should be in prison with cisgender women, or competing in sport against cisgender women.

I've been reading gender-critical feminists who are quite depressed that their options in the upcoming US election are either vote for the Mango Mussolini or vote for the guy who wants to put transwomen in women's prisons and women's sports.  Trans issues won't be what makes the difference in the US election, but some of them are sufficiently grossed out that they are talking about not voting.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 17, 2020, 09:12:31 pm



Quote
Wilber has mentioned more than a few times that he's a proud granddad whose granddaughters are involved in sports.

If he didn't have granddaughters who were in sports, would he have a right to voice an opinion?

You're not trans and you don't play sports... why do YOU care? Do YOU get to have an opinion?



Would I be as involved? Maybe not but I would still have the same opinion.



As and old straight white guy, I try to be careful when I post on this subject because I have to admit, much of the debate is beyond me. On the other hand, women aways seem to be getting the dirty end of the stick when it comes to these issues. That just doesn't seem right.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 17, 2020, 09:27:38 pm

 



As and old straight white guy, I try to be careful when I post on this subject because I have to admit, much of the debate is beyond me. 
;)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 17, 2020, 09:52:49 pm
Well... I am just saying that your general assertion isn't clear to me.  Could *I* refuse a trans doctor ?  A gay doctor ?

If it's on the basis that you just don't like "those people", then I wouldn't think so.  That's not reasonable.  A woman not wanting a biologically male doctor to touch her privates is reasonable.  A woman not wanting to wax a transwoman's balls is reasonable.  If that woman also wants to refuse to give the transwoman a pedicure, there's no reasonable basis to that.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 17, 2020, 10:10:58 pm
The rights for all minorities and oppressed people, and for all people generally, is that i support anyone doing whatever you want, everyone should born free on this earth.  But a person's rights only go as far as until they come into conflict with the rights of others.  That's the crux of the issue here.  Your freedom to swing your fists ends where my nose begins.

Minorities shouldn't have more rights than non-minorities just because society feels worse for the minorities or they have been oppressed at some point.  Human rights don't work like that.  Everyone is EQUAL under the law.  That's the whole point!

So your right to express your gender identity anyway you want shouldn't bother anyone until it conflicts with the rights of others.  When a biological man who identifies with the gender of a woman (a transwoman) wants to compete in sports against women, now you're trampling on the rights of women who want a fair competition without a biological man dominating the competition, and in contact sports there's also a big issue of safety.

Transwomen have rights, so do women.  Everyone's worried about trans rights in order to make things more inclusive for them, but it shouldn't come at someone else's expense.  Which is why affirmative action irks me.  POC and women shouldn't be denied employment simply on the basis of their sex or race, but neither should men and whites.

We've created an "oppression hierarchy" where the rights of the more oppressed groups supersede the groups below them on the hierarchy.  It's total BS.  Everyone has EQUAL human rights.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 17, 2020, 10:55:30 pm
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it.  The passage below was my thoughts exactly on the transvestite serial killer in the novel:

Quote
She equates her own experience of abuse with the theoretical abuse of men entering women’s bathrooms to abuse girls and women.  Bathrooms are the Rome of anti-trans arguments, somehow every road leads back to them. Transphobes have this paranoid fantasy of men, disguised as women, being allowed to enter women’s bathrooms where they can...kidnap girls? Pull them into a stall? Just look at them? I really don’t know, the details about exactly what they’re afraid of never come out, but they’re afraid of something.

But it’s asinine, because cis men completely undisguised can already do this. Not legally, but abuse is illegal regardless. If the bathroom is empty, literally anyone can enter regardless of gender. If the bathroom is full, it’s no easier to kidnap or abuse someone than it would be in any other public space.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 18, 2020, 05:48:51 am
Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it. 

I don't agree.  The points JKR raises could be valid, as could the points that the Reddit poster makes.

But the first points lack cites on both sides.

And safety is inextricably subjective and difficult to manage.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 18, 2020, 01:44:52 pm
And safety is inextricably subjective and difficult to manage.

Agreed, but put my post in context.

I said I evolved on my opinions about JKR when I read about the character in her book.  I no longer feel her agenda is purely feminism and she does have an anti-trans slant, which, as the poster on reddit says, always comes down to the boogie man trans-woman lurking in the bathroom and endangering innocent helpless women. 

As for safety issues, I actually understand the problems created when allowing trans women into gym lockers and bathrooms.  However, the alternative is forcing trans women into men's bathrooms where they are endangered (not to mention humiliated). 

Some women falsely accuse men of r@pe (apparently that word is censored) and ruin their lives and careers and it's horrible but we don't get rid of **** laws because of it. 

I feel the same way about the bathroom issue.  Even though it can be abused, I feel it'll do more good than bad.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on September 18, 2020, 02:07:49 pm
I said I evolved on my opinions about JKR when I read about the character in her book.  I no longer feel her agenda is purely feminism and she does have an anti-trans slant, which, as the poster on reddit says, always comes down to the boogie man trans-woman lurking in the bathroom and endangering innocent helpless women. 

Yes, I got that.  I feel like the sides in question aren't debating empirically, ie. not trying to reach a conclusion using all the facts available.

Quote
As for safety issues, I actually understand the problems created when allowing trans women into gym lockers and bathrooms.  However, the alternative is forcing trans women into men's bathrooms where they are endangered (not to mention humiliated). 

Yes, that is what I'm talking about with regards to the subjectivity of safety.

"I don't feel safe" isn't a rationale for your rights to trump (sorry) mine.  Actually safety concerns are. 

Also -  safety, in the end, is a benefit weighed against costs too.  Cars are designed with the understanding that they can't be accident proof and cost less than $100K.

 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on September 18, 2020, 04:16:57 pm
Maybe because they are responsible for a lot of it.
How many lefties exactly? Certainly not all of 'us'.   

Hence my comment about understanding the plight of reasonable conservatives being in the same tent with Q-Anon. I don't imagine that feels any better than being lumped in with a 'they' that needs to include Jessica Yaniv.  That said, why shouldn't the right be held to account for Q-anon?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on September 18, 2020, 05:24:54 pm
How many lefties exactly? Certainly not all of 'us'.   

Hence my comment about understanding the plight of reasonable conservatives being in the same tent with Q-Anon. I don't imagine that feels any better than being lumped in with a 'they' that needs to include Jessica Yaniv.  That said, why shouldn't the right be held to account for Q-anon?

No, certainly not all.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on September 18, 2020, 08:26:36 pm
The left is about justice and fairness.  The left is about sticking up for the little guy and trying to make things better for the people who are worst off.  That's a good thing.
It certainly is - its just too bad that pinning down what's good is probably the most political thing people do.

Quote
I think all of us would agree that trans people deserve to be safe and to have legal protection against discrimination. 
Yup, the same as any person.

Quote
But some of the things that trans people and their allies are calling for goes beyond what many people see as being reasonable or fair. Even in very liberal California, polling says that most people don't think transwomen should be in prison with cisgender women, or competing in sport against cisgender women.
One would think it would be safe to put specific things like this to the referenda California is famous/notorious for.  A resounding thumbs down from such a liberal state might bring some reason back to the mix.

Quote
I've been reading gender-critical feminists who are quite depressed that their options in the upcoming US election are either vote for the Mango Mussolini or vote for the guy who wants to put transwomen in women's prisons and women's sports.  Trans issues won't be what makes the difference in the US election, but some of them are sufficiently grossed out that they are talking about not voting.


-k
It's a world gone mad alright. I can barely drag my ass out of bed myself these days.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on September 27, 2020, 01:37:01 am

Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat.


I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.




Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 01, 2020, 01:59:04 am
I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

Oh wow! Good for you! You've found an anecdote!  How exciting for you!

 -k

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on October 01, 2020, 07:29:32 pm
Getting lectured on anecdotes from person who gave a handful of examples of transphobes getting harassed and drew the conclusion that "Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat." 

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 04, 2020, 04:38:58 pm
Getting lectured on anecdotes from person who gave a handful of examples of transphobes getting harassed and drew the conclusion that "Violent misogyny is completely normalized on Twitter, to the extent that women who click the "report" button don't even get replies. But misgender a trans person and BOOM the Twitter riot police are there in a heartbeat."

Misogyny on Twitter isn't an anecdote, it's a fact whose existence has been demonstrated by academic research and statistical analysis.  Even Twitter itself readily acknowledges its existence and promises "they need to do better."  Every year for many years they release a statement acknowledging it and promising to do better.

Yesterday Twitter sent out an announcement that tweets wishing for Trump's death would not be tolerated.  Which immediately resulted in mockery, because for women like Ilhan Omar and AOC, wishes for harm and death are a daily occurrence on Twitter.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/03/politics/twitter-trump-policy-ban-the-squad-politics-trnd/index.html

Twitter's safety team must have heard the laughter, because they responded with a thread here:  https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1312498514002243584

"We hear the voices who feel that we're enforcing some policies inconsistently. We agree we must do better, and we are working together inside to do so."
"We’ll continue to respond to concerns about our enforcement through action, not empty words."
(etc)
Which just resulted in more laughter and mockery.  And they deserve mockery.   For them to talk about "continuing" to enforce their policy against wishing harm on anybody so soon after #RIPJKRowling was a worldwide trend is laughable. 

 -k

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 04, 2020, 05:05:40 pm
I saw something on twitter which I bookmarked for Kimmy's woe-is-women-on-twitter post above:

https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1310005325278318593

Eugene Gu is a questionable character with accusations of domestic abuse amongst other things but that's irrelevant to my point.  This cisgender man is taking a break from twitter because he can't take the onslaught of abuse telling him to commit suicide.

As I've said repeatedly on this thread, twitter and social media in general brings out the worst in people.  I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

The claim was never that only women suffer abuse on Twitter,  so your ability to find a cisgender male person who is allegedly experiencing a campaign of harassment doesn't disprove what I have argued.     

Also, as you mention, Gu seems to be a questionable character, and maybe this alleged campaign by racist white doctors trying to destroy him isn't all it seems.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/5/18147216/eugene-gu-twitter-social-justice-activism-abuse-sexual-assault


I don't condone it and I take few risks for myself, but the abuse does not discriminate towards any particular ideology.

And trying to extrapolate Dr Gu's sad story into the conclusion that you've drawn here is spectacularly stupid. 

Certainly the abuse does discriminate. The alt-right have used Twitter to silence and intimidate their targets for years, and that is an issue that has been widely discussed.  What is much less discussed is that the social justice mob use the same tactics.  And progressives either don't know, or they're willing to rationalize or excuse it. So that's what I wanted to point out in this thread. Because nothing says "progressive" like threatening to **** or kill a woman for voicing her opinion.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 04, 2020, 05:58:54 pm
There's a thread on r/changemyview about this topic.  The OP has the view that JK Rowling hasn't said anything requiring the current vilification campaign.  The top comment gives a lovely explanation of why her comments are so objectionable to some people.  I won't even try to summarize, but here's the link if you're interested (and if it works).

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/iuof3u/cmv_jk_rowling_isnt_saying_anything_transphobic/g5m3qfi/

Thanks for sharing that, the poster shredded it.  The passage below was my thoughts exactly on the transvestite serial killer in the novel:
Quote
She equates her own experience of abuse with the theoretical abuse of men entering women’s bathrooms to abuse girls and women.  Bathrooms are the Rome of anti-trans arguments, somehow every road leads back to them. Transphobes have this paranoid fantasy of men, disguised as women, being allowed to enter women’s bathrooms where they can...kidnap girls? Pull them into a stall? Just look at them? I really don’t know, the details about exactly what they’re afraid of never come out, but they’re afraid of something.

But it’s asinine, because cis men completely undisguised can already do this. Not legally, but abuse is illegal regardless. If the bathroom is empty, literally anyone can enter regardless of gender. If the bathroom is full, it’s no easier to kidnap or abuse someone than it would be in any other public space.

I'm going to respond to this in the Gender thread.

 -k

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 04, 2020, 11:21:40 pm
Kimmy does not comply with the Groupthink.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.  BC is the center of the hive, outliers are rare.  We will call you a racist homophobe TERF and an alt-right Trump supporter until there is compliance.  You have been warned.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 05, 2020, 06:40:15 am
Kimmy does not comply with the Groupthink.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.  BC is the center of the hive, outliers are rare.  We will call you a racist homophobe TERF and an alt-right Trump supporter until there is compliance.  You have been warned.

Stop living in fear.  You are free to express your opinions, as always. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 06, 2020, 12:07:11 am
Stop living in fear.  You are free to express your opinions, as always.

We all live in fear.  Say the wrong opinions, you lose your job, your career etc.  You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 07:16:05 am
We all live in fear.  Say the wrong opinions, you lose your job, your career etc.  You will be assimilated.  Resistance is futile.

There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 06, 2020, 09:59:20 am
There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole

But now the question of what constitutes being an a**hole is being decided by a mob of dopes on the internet.

For example yesterday I was reading that worldfamous champion cycling superstar, college professor, motivational speaker, and trans rights superhero Veronica Ivy (formerly known as Rachel V McKinnon... because she thought a stripper/**** star would be more feminine, I guess?) is asking her followers to stalk her competitors on Facebook and get screen-captures of anybody who complains about trans-women in women's sport so that she can send them to their sponsors and to USA Cycling.

(Veronica is also miffed that people at her event were cheering for her opponent instead of her:
(https://i.imgur.com/doxo636.png)
Imagine the entitlement. I think Veronica has probably done more to create pushback against trans activism than Amy Eileen Hamm or Meghan Murphy could ever hope to.)


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 10:42:50 am
But now the question of what constitutes being an a**hole is being decided by a mob of dopes on the internet.

That's because "now" there is an internet.  Before, the mob had landlines.

Quote
anybody who complains about trans-women in women's sport so that she can send them to their sponsors and to USA Cycling.

Sounds like she is against 'the mob' actually, but ok.  She shouldn't (and probably won't) get people to boycott based on reasonable discussion.  But what a 'complaint' is really is dependent...
 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 06, 2020, 12:49:57 pm
There's nothing new here.  You could always be fired for being an a__hole

Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 12:57:16 pm
Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

Remember the young east indian 'looking' guy on CBC who got the ax for being the 'S' side in S&M play with women? What was his name?
I had a lot of sympathy for that guy. He was actually playing with women in the way those particular women wanted to play, but that wasn't politically correct at the time. I wonder what would be said if it was all revisited? Any interest in the topic?

Cheers.

edit: ahhhh right, Gian Ghomeshi.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 12:58:20 pm
Yes the "wrong" opinions make you an a-hole.  Non-conformity.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.

And... this is as it always was. 

I actually would love to live in an environment where people are so able to not take offense that ANYTHING can be discussed.  Communism would be a great topic to tackle...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 06, 2020, 01:30:41 pm
And... this is as it always was. 
  Communism would be a great topic to tackle...

That discussion could actually happen on a Canadian forum but American heads would start to explode if there was any sort of suggestions made on how communism, socialism, and socially responsible democracies all differ.

Can you do it?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 06, 2020, 07:01:47 pm
That discussion could actually happen on a Canadian forum but American heads would start to explode if there was any sort of suggestions made on how communism, socialism, and socially responsible democracies all differ.

Can you do it?

Not at work, no.  I work at a bank.  ;D
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 07, 2020, 02:08:45 am
Remember the young east indian 'looking' guy on CBC who got the ax for being the 'S' side in S&M play with women? What was his name?
I had a lot of sympathy for that guy. He was actually playing with women in the way those particular women wanted to play, but that wasn't politically correct at the time. I wonder what would be said if it was all revisited? Any interest in the topic?

Cheers.

edit: ahhhh right, Gian Ghomeshi.
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 07, 2020, 02:32:49 am
That's because "now" there is an internet.  Before, the mob had landlines.

Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny.  You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.  You didn't have

Sounds like she is against 'the mob' actually, but ok. 

Oh come on. She's asking people to monitor the Facebook posts of her competitors to look for instances of wrongthink so that she can report them to the USA Cycling organization and complain to their sponsors. She's not "against 'the mob'",  she's leading 'the mob'.  She's the one bellowing for the villagers to get their torches and pitchforks and find the witches.

She shouldn't (and probably won't) get people to boycott based on reasonable discussion.  But what a 'complaint' is really is dependent...

To many people, "female athletes should not have to compete against male-bodied competitors" is a reasonable opinion. Some people would claim it's hate speech.  And those people believe that calling you transphobic is sufficient to create "consequences" (as Ms Ivy puts it) for you.  They hope that the accusation of transphobia on its own is so toxic as to render you a pariah regardless of whether you have a reasonable argument to make.  They hope that your employer (or your social group or whatever) is sufficiently frightened of becoming involved in any sort of controversy that they will cut ties with you rather than face the ire of some woke mob that may or may not even exist.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on October 07, 2020, 09:23:54 am
Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny. 

 -k

Before the internet I was married and living in a townhouse complex.  My husband left, and I lived there alone.  One night I had 3 friends over, we played cards till around 1 in the morning.   Another night, I was cleaning late at night and noticed a car driving around the complex several times.  It was weird, so I called the cops, the cops came to talk to them and then to me.  A couple of weeks later, I was given notice because the neighbors wete complaining that I was having such wild parties, the police had to be called.  Even though I explained both circumstances  the property manager was adamant that I had to leave.

I moved to a very small town in Northern BC.  I was single, I went out dancing a lot and I had sex rather freely.  I worked as a server at a couple of places, but then I wasn't able to get a job when the second one ended.  Came to find out I had a "reputation", so my job prospects became nonexistent.

Now, I get that the internet is new and the issue of people ganging up on someone they perceive as "misbehaving" is certainly more visible, but its not "new" by any means.  I am an ordinary person who faced intense scrutiny, to the point I lost a place to live and couldn't get a job - well before the internet.  My "crime" was basically being single in the first case  and being sexually active in the second case
---------------
Quote
You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.

I agree that this is new for ordinary people; less so for people who've spent time in the public eye.   Internet makes the spreading of past and current "sins" a lot easier and technology today makes creating lies possible in a way it wasn't previously.

It seems to me the behaviour you are railing against is normal human behaviour and was pretty common prior to the internet.  The internet has definitely amplified it, that is easy to see.

I think this is a process and that over time a balance will be found.  In terms of misinformation, things are beginning to change with both FB and Twitter making moves to reduce its spread.  Perhaps the mobbing up and targetting of individuals will become the next behavior online platforms will address. 

Of course, this does take people like you objecting to it so strongly to drive that change, whereas people like me - basically ignoring it - are not helpful in that regard.

40 years ago, being a single female was suspect enough to get you evicted, and being female and sexually active was enough to impact employment opportunities.  I don't think that is true anymore, even in small town BC.  Perhaps 40 years from now  we'll see an entirely different "social media" experience.   (Well not me, more likely you.)  And it'll be due to people who cared enough to fight for it, so good on you.

I know, this post is a bit rambly, sorry about that. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on October 07, 2020, 10:43:57 am
Before the internet, ordinary people didn't have to face this kind of scrutiny.  You didn't have this permanent digital trail available for strangers to peruse over to decide what kind of person you are.  You didn't have

Yes, this is true.  Well... you didn't have a *global* audience to your behaviour and there wasn't homogenized morality.  We are part of that smoothing process now.

Quote
Oh come on. She's asking people to monitor the Facebook posts of her competitors to look for instances of wrongthink so that she can report them to the USA Cycling organization and complain to their sponsors. She's not "against 'the mob'",  she's leading 'the mob'.  She's the one bellowing for the villagers to get their torches and pitchforks and find the witches.

Why are the people who are using social media on one side a mob and the others not ?   

Quote
To many people, "female athletes should not have to compete against male-bodied competitors" is a reasonable opinion. Some people would claim it's hate speech.

I already covered this... it depends on what a complaint is.

All of this sounds like mob vs. mob to me.  I'm not supportive of people being fired for private comments, but public comments are fair game and the devil is always hiding there between the details.

"I think that trans women should have some criteria for inclusion" is innocuous
"Trans women are men - BAN them from sports" isn't

And... really this whole topic is not that interesting.  There's nothing new here in terms of morality.  I don't care much either way on this, as long as really repugnant speech is ostracized, and I'm sure you would agree with me where that line is.

This is the process of homogenization of morality, which is natural.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 07, 2020, 12:30:09 pm
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

 -k

Well kimmy, if you have an interest in discussing the issue then I'll start by feeling you out to see if you intend to stay rational about it. So I'll just start with the suggestion that Khomeshi was cleared of any possible crimes. And that the CBC got rid of him because of the negative appearance of him being a celebrity and being allowed to continue with CBC.

Do you know if Ghomeshi brought any lawsuits against the CBC? Or was CBC immune to a lawsuit because of the contract with Ghomeshi?
And of course the hot question is on whether any of the women involved were into S&M?

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on October 08, 2020, 02:55:40 am
Well kimmy, if you have an interest in discussing the issue then I'll start by feeling you out to see if you intend to stay rational about it. So I'll just start with the suggestion that Khomeshi was cleared of any possible crimes.

That isn't true.  He was acquitted on charges relating to things that occurred outside the workplace. He did not face trial for any of the workplace harassment he committed at CBC. He did face one charge for sexually assaulting a colleague at work, but it was settled with a peace-bond and formal apology from Ghomeshi.

Quote
And that the CBC got rid of him because of the negative appearance of him being a celebrity and being allowed to continue with CBC.

CBC had ample cause for firing him:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Quote
Do you know if Ghomeshi brought any lawsuits against the CBC?  Or was CBC immune to a lawsuit because of the contract with Ghomeshi?

He attempted to sue the CBC for $55 million dollars, withdrew the suit, and ended up paying CBC's legal expenses.

Quote
And of course the hot question is on whether any of the women involved were into S&M?

That's completely irrelevant. We're talking about Ghomeshi's workplace behavior, and what his victims do in the privacy of their bedrooms doesn't give Ghomeshi a license to harass them in the workplace.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on October 08, 2020, 01:23:16 pm
He doesn't deserve your sympathy. People remember that Ghomeshi was acquitted of sexual assault, but people forget that he treated female employees at CBC like garbage.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/jian-ghomeshi-cathryn-borel-sexual-assault-charge-1.3576702

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cbc-apology-kathryn-borel-ghomeshi-peace-bond-1.3577223

CBC's inquiry into how their management handled complaints about Ghomeshi resulted in 2 managers being fired.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/cbc-inquiry-concludes-management-mishandled-jian-ghomeshi-1.3035574

Bad publicity from the criminal charges was the catalyst that led to the rest of this stuff becoming public. 

He deserved to be fired for the way he treated other employees.

The only reason he didn't get fired sooner was that the network brass thought that he was their star, and felt that the women who he abused were expendable if it kept him happy.

He's a goon who bullied and degraded women because he knew that he could get away with it.

 -k

Thanks for your reply to this very interesting topic kimmy. Personally, I could never do what Ghomeshi did but I'll always wonder about whether any of the women involved were into S&M with him. His behaviour was disgusting to say the least.

The question becomes valid considering that he wasn't charged and prosecuted for his crimes. There's also no doubt that he did pretty much what he was accused of doing.

And my guess is that he's likely still doing it, albeit from a safer vocation that doesn't make his activities prohibitive. Do you think so? We both know that what happens in the bedrooms of Canada, remains the business of the participants.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on November 17, 2020, 09:06:42 pm
ATTENTION!  ATTENTION!  Stand by for Important Information from the Department of Inclusive Language!

Henceforth, Trans Women are to be referred to as Women!

Also

Henceforth, adult human females are to be referred to as menstruators, gestators, lactators, human milk feeders, cervix-havers, uterus-bearers, or birthing bodies.


That is all!  Go about your business!

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on November 17, 2020, 09:09:49 pm
Congratulations to Sarah McBride (https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/politics/sarah-mcbride-delaware-state-senate/index.html), first woman elected to a US State Senate!

Also, congratulations to Kamala Harris, first cervix-haver elected to the position of US Vice President.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 17, 2020, 09:27:00 pm
Congratulations to Sarah McBride (https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/04/politics/sarah-mcbride-delaware-state-senate/index.html), first woman elected to a US State Senate!

Also, congratulations to Kamala Harris, first cervix-haver elected to the position of US Vice President.

 -k

That'll drive the GOP senators nuts. Which washrooms will she use?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on November 18, 2020, 09:06:55 am
That'll drive the GOP senators nuts. Which washrooms will she use?

She can just decide on a daily basis which gender she feels like being, and use the appropriate bathroom. 

And, for complete equality, all the uterus-havers and ****-holders can do the same. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 09:54:01 am
I had a response to kimmy that I lost somehow...

basically an acknowledgement that 'femininity' as a proxy for womanhood is a restricting concept and people should be free to be 'feminine' or not and still be a woman
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on November 18, 2020, 10:08:53 am
She can just decide on a daily basis which gender she feels like being, and use the appropriate bathroom. 

And, for complete equality, all the uterus-havers and ****-holders can do the same.

That's an interesting point, Juniper.  This new gender-neutral language fad seems to not apply to men. Women now get referred to by their body parts or bodily functions, yet it seems like men continue to be called men. Is that the case? Can any testicle-havers weigh in?

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 11:48:10 am
That's an interesting point, Juniper.  This new gender-neutral language fad seems to not apply to men. Women now get referred to by their body parts or bodily functions, yet it seems like men continue to be called men. Is that the case? Can any testicle-havers weigh in?

 -k

I like things to be simplified.  If somebody says 'Call me Sheila' I will do that, no problem.  If they think I'm a homophobe because I won't have sex with a guy... that's an opinion.   

I don't feel like there is much call for alarm on these questions.  Note that the word 'much' is there.  As with J. Peterson's initial fears there are things to keep your eyes open on, and this is what the letter in Harpers was about (not cancel culture IMO)... making sure to keep the dialogue open.

There are always things to watch and be concerned over but they can/do come up rarely and shouldn't dominate the mainstream discussion.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on November 18, 2020, 11:55:13 am
This is a good thread to keep going! And maybe some will have gathered up enough courage to discuss Ghomeshi again, and some of his women who preferred it rough. Note I say, just 'some'.
It's a very sensitive topic for most women but with luck we have one or two that have the courage and the interest.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 12:00:29 pm
This is a good thread to keep going! And maybe some will have gathered up enough courage to discuss Ghomeshi again, and some of his women who preferred it rough. Note I say, just 'some'.
It's a very sensitive topic for most women but with luck we have one or two that have the courage and the interest.

Not really on topic nor ... anything to be said on that topic really.  Are you going to have a thread speculating on Ghomeshi's encounters ?

Sounds like a non-starter.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on November 18, 2020, 12:07:16 pm
Not really on topic nor ... anything to be said on that topic really.  Are you going to have a thread speculating on Ghomeshi's encounters ?

Sounds like a non-starter.

I don't see there being enough courage being displayed by anyone yet. And even less intelligence.

Supposing that the topic would even be allowed here?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 18, 2020, 12:19:10 pm
That's an interesting point, Juniper.  This new gender-neutral language fad seems to not apply to men. Women now get referred to by their body parts or bodily functions, yet it seems like men continue to be called men. Is that the case? Can any testicle-havers weigh in?

 -k

Seems to be the case. Don't know why. Is it a man thing or a woman thing?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 01:40:11 pm
I don't see there being enough courage being displayed by anyone yet. And even less intelligence.

Supposing that the topic would even be allowed here?

What does it have to do with courage ?  We don't know these people... speculating about their sex lives or propensity for assaulting others isn't brave.

You seem to be trolling.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Montgomery on November 18, 2020, 01:51:17 pm
What does it have to do with courage ?  We don't know these people... speculating about their sex lives or propensity for assaulting others isn't brave.

You seem to be trolling.

The legal agreement and the arrangement CBC had with Ghomeshi worked to cancel out any chance of Ghomeshi pursuing a lawsuit any further.
And that's not to suggest that public sentiments were totally and completely turned in his victims' favour.

I'm simply asking for anybody to comment on how much S&M was involved in the whole issue. But not suggesting that it was a factor with all of the women. The whole thing was put down by CBC so quickly that we never did get a chance to learn the whole story.

So you're being a little bit brave, but not really very brave. Good for you!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 02:05:45 pm
1. The legal agreement and the arrangement CBC had with Ghomeshi worked to cancel out any chance of Ghomeshi pursuing a lawsuit any further.
And that's not to suggest that public sentiments were totally and completely turned in his victims' favour.

2. I'm simply asking for anybody to comment on how much S&M was involved in the whole issue. But not suggesting that it was a factor with all of the women. The whole thing was put down by CBC so quickly that we never did get a chance to learn the whole story.

3. So you're being a little bit brave, but not really very brave. Good for you!
1. Ok.  It's over five years old - go find a thread on it I guess
2. What ?  Comment on HOW MUCH ?  How it that a topic ?  It's a matter of public record go look it up.
3. You are a lot weird.  There's no controversy here, nor do you have to be brave to discuss matters of public record.  It's a dull topic.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 18, 2020, 02:18:51 pm
Seems to be the case. Don't know why. Is it a man thing or a woman thing?
It's a thing's thing and thangs with wangs always get a free pass. It's been like this forever right, we talk about cavemen days not cavewomen days.  That said what about people who choose to be a thing or an object instead of some other....thing?

At risk of going down the road monty is pointing, recall Annie Lennox's observation that some just want to abuse you and others just want to be abused.  Anythang goes.

So...in addition to yer they's, them's and their's you also have things, thangs and...thongs?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 18, 2020, 03:00:02 pm
It's a thing's thing and thangs with wangs always get a free pass. It's been like this forever right, we talk about cavemen days not cavewomen days.  That said what about people who choose to be a thing or an object instead of some other....thing?

At risk of going down the road monty is pointing, recall Annie Lennox's observation that some just want to abuse you and others just want to be abused.  Anythang goes.

So...in addition to yer they's, them's and their's you also have things, thangs and...thongs?

Oh, for sure but it's my observation that women can be a lot harder on each other than men often are. I don't pretend to know how a woman should feel if someone with a dick walks into a women's restroom.

When I was on course in Japan, female cleaning staff would routinely walk into mens washrooms to do their job without any announcement and they wouldn't put up signs to say they were there. No biggie.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on November 18, 2020, 06:37:00 pm
Oh, for sure but it's my observation that women can be a lot harder on each other than men often are. I don't pretend to know how a woman should feel if someone with a dick walks into a women's restroom.

When I was quite a bit younger and still living in small town BC (early 80s), I came to the exciting Metropolis of Vancouver to visit my sister.  Sis took me to a night club on Davie (Love? something),  where I ran across an older lady in a rather vintage looking dress in the ladies room.  After she left, I commented to my sister on how she was dressed, whereupon my sister informed me that it was a man and not a woman.  I failed to scream or pass out in shock, enjoyed the rest of my evening and did not find it necessary to write to any newspapers or call in to talk radio to complain about the declining morals of our society, led by lefty progressives.

I have, on occasion, taken my wombful body into the men's washroom when the ladies was too busy.  Nobody died. 

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on November 18, 2020, 07:22:55 pm
Sis took me to a night club on Davie (Love? something)

Luvafair!  On Seymour just by Granville Street bridge.  My god, I had some good times there in the mid 90's. 

ETA - Cross street was Davie actually if that's what you remember... between Davie and Drake.  So yes, lots of interesting people there.  Good times.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 18, 2020, 07:43:26 pm
Wow I didn't realize Vancouver had so much night life...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on November 18, 2020, 08:13:25 pm
Wow I didn't realize Vancouver had so much night life...

Shhh, don't tell anyone.  We have enough easterners out here. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JuniperRose on November 18, 2020, 11:08:43 pm
Luvafair!  On Seymour just by Granville Street bridge.  My god, I had some good times there in the mid 90's. 

ETA - Cross street was Davie actually if that's what you remember... between Davie and Drake.  So yes, lots of interesting people there.  Good times.

Yup, Luvafair.  I figured someone would know but
I wasn't very familar with Vancouver, so no doubt remembered the location wrong.  Also had some good times at Roxies.  Other spots I can't recall the names, but got asked to leave at one because a couple of guys were being bothersome to my sister and I guess they were regulars and I was too loud in my objections. Or something like that.  :)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 19, 2020, 04:59:29 am
Shhh, don't tell anyone.  We have enough easterners out here.

I guess you don't understand Eastern humour
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on November 19, 2020, 05:44:21 pm
I guess you don't understand Eastern humour

Au contraire.  I was immersed in Eastern humour for 10 years (Toronto and Montreal).  That's where I honed my skills for the west coast comeback.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 19, 2020, 06:38:43 pm
Au contraire.  I was immersed in Eastern humour for 10 years (Toronto and Montreal).  That's where I honed my skills for the west coast comeback.
I was born in TO but my 45 year immersion in Vancouver Island culture has resulted in taking 'freeze you eastern bastards' to mean anywhere east of the EEC border down the middle of the Salish Sea.  I even still have an old Vancouver Island Liberation Organization tee-shirt.

Please do not confuse VILO with the ILA.

Quote
The Island Liberation Army, or ILA, is the main land warfare force of the Vancouver Island Soviet Socialist Republic. Founded by Comrade Dustinov, General Secretary of the VISSR, on August 5th 2019. The ILA is half of the armed wing of the ruling Communist Party of the VISSR, along with the Island Liberation Navy.

https://micronations.wiki/wiki/Island_Liberation_Army
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 19, 2020, 07:37:39 pm
Au contraire.  I was immersed in Eastern humour for 10 years (Toronto and Montreal).  That's where I honed my skills for the west coast comeback.

So come back then...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on November 19, 2020, 07:38:52 pm
I was born in TO but my 45 year immersion in Vancouver Island culture has ....


I still lie awake at night when I realize this...

I pictured you as captain highliner... then I found out you're from here.  Burst all the bubbles coming out of my pipe.  What part of TO again ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 19, 2020, 08:20:11 pm

I still lie awake at night when I realize this...

I pictured you as captain highliner... then I found out you're from here.  Burst all the bubbles coming out of my pipe.  What part of TO again ?
Oh I'm still a captain alright. I lived in North TO, usually on and within a few blocks of Yonge St from just north of Lawrence Ave almost down to Bloor St.  Hog's Hollow was still farmland when I lived there - I was 16/17 when I hitch-hiked out west - Christ it's probably closer to 48 years I've been out here now.

Went logging and fishing after a short stint as a pin-setter at the local bowling alley.  Locals thought it was great sport to launch bowling balls at the hippy down in the pit. I fit right in when I promptly fired them back up the lane at them.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on November 19, 2020, 10:00:44 pm
I used to set pins for a few extra bucks and remember some of the smart asses who would try and make me jump. Good on ya for firing them back.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on November 19, 2020, 11:28:42 pm
I used to set pins for a few extra bucks and remember some of the smart asses who would try and make me jump. Good on ya for firing them back.
Well it was either that go back to Toronto with my tail between my legs. That said I'll never forget my first couple of weeks on a yarder crew.  Everyone screamed at me and it didn't stop until they threw out a new greenhorn chokerman.  I screamed 'today man, today'! with all the gusto of a veteran too.

I made a deckhand cry a couple years ago and it nearly caused a human rights hearing.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on December 09, 2020, 01:34:59 am
Gaia, protect this wokespace and all who dwell within this wokespace. Protect us from ideas we don't agree with, and words that make us uncomfortable be they true or false. Protect our feelings, Gaia.



Meanwhile at UBC: university apologizes after wokie res advisor distributes material intended to educate people about "yellow privilege".

https://vancouversun.com/news/canada/ubc-apologizes-after-document-on-yellow-privilege-sent-to-students/


 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 09, 2020, 02:18:02 am
Gaia, protect this wokespace and all who dwell within this wokespace. Protect us from ideas we don't agree with, and words that make us uncomfortable be they true or false. Protect our feelings, Gaia.



Meanwhile at UBC: university apologizes after wokie res advisor distributes material intended to educate people about "yellow privilege".

https://vancouversun.com/news/canada/ubc-apologizes-after-document-on-yellow-privilege-sent-to-students/


 -k

If white privilege is an actual thing, which I absolutely believe it is....  and yellow people (I think East Asian is probably a better term) have very similar privilege too....  then what is the issue?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on December 09, 2020, 10:16:05 pm
If white privilege is an actual thing, which I absolutely believe it is....  and yellow people (I think East Asian is probably a better term) have very similar privilege too....  then what is the issue?

It just seems incredibly childish to me, different groups pointing at each other saying "You're privileged!" "No, YOU'RE privileged!"  This sort of stuff makes even well-meaning people tune out and say "god this stuff is stupid."

Intersectionality, as originally described by Kimberle Crenshaw, was never intended to describe a hierarchy of victimhood, but that's how it is being interpreted now. "Hey, you Asians, listen up. You may experience racism, but you aren't as oppressed as black people, so settle down. This moment isn't about YOU!"  The idea wasn't to decide who wins gold medals in the victimhood Olympics. The original idea of intersectionality was to describe that a number of factors, especially race, sex, and class, affect how we all interact with society. A white woman and a black woman both experience sexism, but it will manifest in different ways. A black woman and a black man both experience racism, but it will manifest in different ways. A black man and an Asian  man both experience racism, but it will manifest in different ways.  A black man will probably be impacted by stereotypes that he may be aggressive and violent and prone to commit crime (but probably great at sex and sports!). An Asian man will probably be impacted by stereotypes that he may be weak and docile and less manly (but probably great at math and video games!)   While it's true that stereotypes about Asian men are less likely to get them beat up by police than stereotypes about black men, I'm not sure it's fair to describe that as "privileged."

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on December 10, 2020, 02:14:58 am
If we exclude the odd snickers about cultural taboos (ahem ahem), you cannot in good conscience deny the privilege Asians have compared to some other minorities, pandemic assaults notwithstanding.  Many white supremacists/nationalists admire Asians and acknowledge their work ethics and intelligence.  I can't remember the documentary but for what it's worth, a white-nationalist was making the point that he doesn't care so much about supremacy, but white nationalism.  He was in many ways Asians are even superior to whites (again take that FWIW because i don't remember his name to quote here).

I was picked on in my all-white school for my curly hair and darker skin but I never really experienced true racism until I dated a black guy.  He played for the Toronto Argonaults making a lot of money and dressed nice, yet cabs would not stop for us once they looked past me and saw him.  Waitresses would him to pay up front for our drinks and being surprised by the big tip.  Sure, things like 'where are you from' bothered me when I grew up in Canada but I was shocked by the life he had to endure even though he was an educated, high-earning black man.   

I wouldn't say there is a hierarchy, but there are different branches, and indeed Asians are on a branch that's not as affected as some of the other branches. 

To say it's privilege is not incorrect IMO.  They are more likely to get that phone call for the job interview because it's assumed they're smart.  They're likely to get that apartment rented to them because it's assumed they're quiet and will pay their rent on time.  They're more likely to not to have their hair products locked away because it's assumed they might steal.  They may get slighted for being just the waving neighbour who doesn't socialize, but hey.. at least they're quiet other than the sound of their kids playing the piano.

I certainly see the differences and how they can be seen as privilege, and I don't really think a person of European ancestry who has not experienced racial injustices has any room to discount their experiences and/or mansplain why they're wrong.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: JMT on December 10, 2020, 08:48:41 am
I’m very offended.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 10, 2020, 10:29:51 am
If we exclude the odd snickers about cultural taboos (ahem ahem), you cannot in good conscience deny the privilege Asians have compared to some other minorities, pandemic assaults notwithstanding.  Many white supremacists/nationalists admire Asians and acknowledge their work ethics and intelligence. 

Generalizing about groups is a minefield.  While it not be as 'offensive' to talk about 'them hard workin' Asians' the logical fallacy in such statements can be repurposed to cause harm if you don't point it out.

Quote
 

To say it's privilege is not incorrect IMO.  They are more likely to get that phone call for the job interview because it's assumed they're smart.  They're likely to get that apartment rented to them because it's assumed they're quiet and will pay their rent on time.  They're more likely to not to have their hair products locked away because it's assumed they might steal.  They may get slighted for being just the waving neighbour who doesn't socialize, but hey.. at least they're quiet other than the sound of their kids playing the piano.

By extension... that black guy might get picked for the dance team.... just because...

And ? 

Generalizing is fraught with problems and there are very select ways in which to do it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on December 10, 2020, 01:37:03 pm
Privilege isn't the concept of the world being handed to you, it's about the absence of obstacle as a result of your skin/ethnicity. In that sense, Asians have more privilege than some other minority groups because for better or worse, generalizations exist and the ones that exist for Asians don't often end up costing important things like shelter, justice and their lives.

This isn't to say they don't have to deal with serious prejudices (just look at the COVID thread for examples).

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 10, 2020, 02:27:51 pm
I think Asian privilege and white privilege is a thing that exists in western societies.  I think calling it "yellow privilege" is poor choice of words.

I don't think white people are more racist than any other ethnicity.  I have yet to meet a racial group that doesn't have many members that favour people of their own race over other races.  It's a tribalism thing that comes from fear of outsiders and overgeneralizing different ethnic groups.  White people are the most dominant racial group in Canada/US, therefore non-whites sometimes are at a disadvantage due to privilege.  If you go to India or China or Nigeria etc, many people in those countries will privilege their own races over others.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 10, 2020, 02:46:58 pm
I think Asian privilege and white privilege is a thing that exists in western societies.  I think calling it "yellow privilege" is poor choice of words.

I don't think white people are more racist than any other ethnicity.  I have yet to meet a racial group that doesn't have many members that favour people of their own race over other races.  It's a tribalism thing that comes from fear of outsiders and overgeneralizing different ethnic groups.  White people are the most dominant racial group in Canada/US, therefore non-whites sometimes are at a disadvantage due to privilege.  If you go to India or China or Nigeria etc, many people in those countries will privilege their own races over others.

I agree...  calling any Asian ‘yellow’ is in poor taste.

Now...  about the term ‘white’ privelage....  words that cause offence are funny....   we can say white people...   black people...  brown people.... 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 10, 2020, 02:48:30 pm
People miss the prejudice that they have that ISN'T based on racial/religious/ethnic group.

We discriminate based on occupation far too much, for example.  Or by age.  Or by appearance.  I would like for the government to fund some public service short films that teach people to treat strangers as human beings.

The focus on racism is fair, because there are still a ton of racists and abuse out there but let's start with an acknowledgement that we are humans and build on that.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on December 10, 2020, 03:07:07 pm
I think Asian privilege and white privilege is a thing that exists in western societies.  I think calling it "yellow privilege" is poor choice of words.

I don't think white people are more racist than any other ethnicity.  I have yet to meet a racial group that doesn't have many members that favour people of their own race over other races.  It's a tribalism thing that comes from fear of outsiders and overgeneralizing different ethnic groups.  White people are the most dominant racial group in Canada/US, therefore non-whites sometimes are at a disadvantage due to privilege.  If you go to India or China or Nigeria etc, many people in those countries will privilege their own races over others.

Agreed on both counts.  In my adult life (so excluding school age bullying), I've only ever experienced micro-aggressions from white people.  That included my intimate relationships, but I knew there was no malice intended. 

My only overt experiences with racism was from people from mainland China. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 10, 2020, 05:01:13 pm
I agree...  calling any Asian ‘yellow’ is in poor taste.

Now...  about the term ‘white’ privelage....  words that cause offence are funny....   we can say white people...   black people...  brown people....

True.  I guess we don't call asians yellow anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj878_ICHE0
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 06:37:05 pm
There is Asian privilege in Asia as well. I remember "Japanese Only" clubs in Japan. Had a buddy who was a flight engineer with JAL. He liked flying with Japanese pilots because they would take him to clubs he couldn't get into when he was flying with Gaigins.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 10, 2020, 07:47:04 pm
There is Asian privilege in Asia as well. I remember "Japanese Only" clubs in Japan. Had a buddy who was a flight engineer with JAL. He liked flying with Japanese pilots because they would take him to clubs he couldn't get into when he was flying with Gaigins.

The Japanese are certainly not known for their open and equal society, although that is obviously changing...  They very much prefer "their own kind" in a lot of cases.  Not sure it's a superiority issue....  but maybe more of a relatable issue?  I don't know though.  I would imagine that would be especially prevalent in their "warrior class".  They have a long history of putting their warriors on a pedestal, while also asking a lot of them of course...  kamikaze style.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 07:50:36 pm
The Japanese are certainly not known for their open and equal society, although that is obviously changing...  They very much prefer "their own kind" in a lot of cases.  Not sure it's a superiority issue....  but maybe more of a relatable issue?  I don't know though.  I would imagine that would be especially prevalent in their "warrior class".  They have a long history of putting their warriors on a pedestal, while also asking a lot of them of course...  kamikaze style.

It's a superiority issue. I worked for them for five years and spent a lot of time in Japan. They are very polite though.
It's not really a knock, I quite liked the place and the people. At least most of them.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 21, 2020, 03:00:08 pm
Progressive crackpot Bette Midler goes after a Canadian gynaecologist on Twitter for criticizing other crackpot progressive.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/entry/bette-midler-jen-gunter_ca_5fdf80d6c5b6a7df66654f58/

Funny stuff.  Good for this lady!  She’s calling out the celebrity crackpot left’s bul!****.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 21, 2020, 04:39:52 pm
After a few paragraphs, I became relieved that I can completely sit this one out.

CIS white male free topic. Keel 'em comin' b*****s 😃
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on December 21, 2020, 04:46:24 pm
Love Bette Midler. Went to see her the last time she was in Vancouver. She started about a half hour late but well worth the wait. The woman is a dynamo, I couldn't believe she was in her seventies. I looked at her concert schedule. A NHL team would have found it tough.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on December 21, 2020, 05:01:43 pm
Progressive crackpot Bette Midler goes after a Canadian gynaecologist on Twitter for criticizing other crackpot progressive.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/entry/bette-midler-jen-gunter_ca_5fdf80d6c5b6a7df66654f58/

Funny stuff.  Good for this lady!  She’s calling out the celebrity crackpot left’s bul!****.

Dr Gunter is awesome, and I'm surprised that Bette Midler is still alive, let alone relevant to anything.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 21, 2020, 05:04:08 pm
After a few paragraphs, I became relieved that I can completely sit this one out.

CIS white male free topic. Keel 'em comin' b*****s 😃

You’re not allowed an opinion?  OK

Please remember to tell the women, gay folks, etc to button it if they give an opinion on anything to do with straight males.

Sorry ladies...  hunting is a manly topic.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4b/67/0d/4b670dc3a9eab246be986e2fa6d860b6.jpg)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on December 21, 2020, 05:13:36 pm
Dr Gunter is awesome, and I'm surprised that Bette Midler is still alive, let alone relevant to anything.

 -k

She is still relevant if you want to see a great show.

A review of the one we went to in 2017.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/bette-midler-vancouver-rogers-arena-photos

She was 72 at the time.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 21, 2020, 05:14:38 pm
She is still relevant if you want to see a great show.

A review of the one we went to in 2017.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/bette-midler-vancouver-rogers-arena-photos

She was 72 at the time.

I’m sure she’s a great performer.

Tom Cruise makes excellent Sci-Fi movies.  He’s a fuckin’ weirdo with crackpot views though.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 05:37:48 am
You’re not allowed an opinion?  OK

Please remember to tell the women, gay folks, etc to button it if they give an opinion on anything to do with straight males.

Sorry ladies...  hunting is a manly topic.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4b/67/0d/4b670dc3a9eab246be986e2fa6d860b6.jpg)

Women and gays hunt.  How about a topic like vasectomies?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 22, 2020, 10:34:54 am
Women and gays hunt.  How about a topic like vasectomies?

Yes, they’re allowed an opinion on everything. 

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 11:17:51 am
Yes, they’re allowed an opinion on everything.

Yeah, but... really who cares ? 

Do you feel the need to crowd into a topic where you are barely impacted ?  Are you like those Republican photos where a dozen smiling male legislators are signing somebody's reproductive rights away ?

I see it as "a right to not free speak where it's not needed"...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 11:21:26 am
Yeah, but... really who cares ? 

Do you feel the need to crowd into a topic where you are barely impacted ?  Are you like those Republican photos where a dozen smiling male legislators are signing somebody's reproductive rights away ?

I see it as "a right to not free speak where it's not needed"...
I don't remember gender being an issue when 9 smiling male justices decided Roe v Wade.  Just matters when a decision doesn't go your way huh?  Weird.
Regardless, I'm not sure what reproductive rights you're referring to.  Asking somebody else to preform a medical procedure, paid for by other people aren't rights.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2020, 11:41:08 am
I don't remember gender being an issue when 9 smiling male justices decided Roe v Wade.  Just matters when a decision doesn't go your way huh?  Weird.
Regardless, I'm not sure what reproductive rights you're referring to. Asking somebody else to preform a medical procedure, paid for by other people aren't rights.

Would be a shame if someone used that line on you should you ever need life-saving medical treatment. Yup. A real shame.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 11:52:36 am
Would be a shame if someone used that line on you should you ever need life-saving medical treatment. Yup. A real shame.
Requiring something from somebody else isn't a right, it's a privilege.  People don't understand the difference between rights and privileges anymore.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2020, 11:59:30 am
Requiring something from somebody else isn't a right, it's a privilege.  People don't understand the difference between rights and privileges anymore.

And you obviously don't understand the issue.

When people talk about abortion as a right, they're talking about the right to bodily autonomy not...whatever the hell you're blethering about.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on December 22, 2020, 12:03:20 pm
I don't remember gender being an issue when 9 smiling male justices decided Roe v Wade.  Just matters when a decision doesn't go your way huh?  Weird.
Regardless, I'm not sure what reproductive rights you're referring to.  Asking somebody else to preform a medical procedure, paid for by other people aren't rights.

You don't think gender was an issue when the court decided in favor of a WOMAN'S rights to have access to abortion? It couldn't be more gender oriented. oh and btw, just to set you straight, again, it wasn't 9 smiling faces, it was 7-2.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 12:14:13 pm
And you obviously don't understand the issue.

When people talk about abortion as a right, they're talking about the right to bodily autonomy not...whatever the hell you're blethering about.
Those are two different things.  Regardless, nobody has complete bodily autonomy.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2020, 12:15:19 pm
You don't think gender was an issue when the court decided in favor of a WOMAN'S rights to have access to abortion? It couldn't be more gender oriented. oh and btw, just to set you straight, again, it wasn't 9 smiling faces, it was 7-2.

The dude thinks the right to abortion means you can go up and demand someone give you an abortion and they have to say yes. He's not a smart person.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 12:15:44 pm
You don't think gender was an issue when the court decided in favor of a WOMAN'S rights to have access to abortion? It couldn't be more gender oriented. oh and btw, just to set you straight, again, it wasn't 9 smiling faces, it was 7-2.
So what?  Did men decide?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 12:16:42 pm
I don't remember gender being an issue when 9 smiling male justices decided Roe v Wade.  Just matters when a decision doesn't go your way huh?  Weird.
Regardless, I'm not sure what reproductive rights you're referring to.  Asking somebody else to preform a medical procedure, paid for by other people aren't rights.

No, that was the 70s.  But sure it makes sense that if the decision doesn't go the way people want people look for reasons.  Kind of like how the first thing Trumpers look at when a decision goes against them is "who appointed the judge" ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 12:16:48 pm
The dude thinks the right to abortion means you can go up and demand someone give you an abortion and they have to say yes. He's not a smart person.
No, that's not it at all.  Stop being obtuse.  What's the difference to claiming a right to access something vs a right to that something? 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 12:17:21 pm
No, that was the 70s.  But sure it makes sense that if the decision doesn't go the way people want people look for reasons.  Kind of like how the first thing Trumpers look at when a decision goes against them is "who appointed the judge" ?
Yes, and the opposite. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 22, 2020, 12:20:29 pm
Yeah, but... really who cares ? 

Do you feel the need to crowd into a topic where you are barely impacted ?  Are you like those Republican photos where a dozen smiling male legislators are signing somebody's reproductive rights away ?

I see it as "a right to not free speak where it's not needed"...

It’s fine for women to chime in and have an opinion on “men’s issues”.  Depending on the woman, I might even value her opinion above yours, despite you being a man.

So who cares?   I care.  Why wouldn’t I?  Why would I dismiss someone’s opinion on a topic strictly because of their gender/orientation?  I find that a shitty thing to do.

That’s what men have been doing to women’s opinions for decades, and I thought we determined at some point that it was wrong to do so. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 12:22:08 pm
It’s fine for women to chime in and have an opinion on “men’s issues”.  Depending on the woman, I might even value her opinion above yours, despite you being a man.

So who cares?   I care.  Why wouldn’t I?  Why would I dismiss someone’s opinion on a topic strictly because of their gender/orientation?  I find that a shitty thing to do.

That’s what men have been doing to women’s opinions for decades, and I thought we determined at some point that it was wrong to do so.
100%
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2020, 12:26:42 pm
No, that's not it at all.  Stop being obtuse.  What's the difference to claiming a right to access something vs a right to that something?

Access to something means you COULD get it, a right to something means you shall not be impeded from it. When people argue that access to abortion is a right, they are arguing for the right not to be prevented by government from seeking an abortion, which is consistent with a view of rights and freedoms that protects individuals against coercive government action.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on December 22, 2020, 12:27:56 pm
So what?  Did men decide?

Men happened to be filling the SCOTUS seats at that time. Do you think a presence of women would have changed the outcome especially when we are talking about womens rights?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on December 22, 2020, 12:30:16 pm
The dude thinks the right to abortion means you can go up and demand someone give you an abortion and they have to say yes. He's not a smart person.

Maybe he should attend a law course before entering such issues.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 12:34:40 pm
Men happened to be filling the SCOTUS seats at that time. Do you think a presence of women would have changed the outcome especially when we are talking about womens rights?
There are no such things as women's rights.  There are just rights.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 12:39:04 pm
Access to something means you COULD get it, a right to something means you shall not be impeded from it. When people argue that access to abortion is a right, they are arguing for the right not to be prevented by government from seeking an abortion, which is consistent with a view of rights and freedoms that protects individuals against coercive government action.
Access to something you COULD get?  Like is there some kind of lottery or something?  Seems like you guys need to come up with a better slogan.  Because when it comes down to it, having somebody else terminate your pregnancy, paid for, by other people isn't a right.  Even if you come up with an access list for it.  It also ignores science and biology.  I can understand the ignorance of the issues involved when medical science was limited to the 1960s and 1970s knowledge.  But not now.  There's no excuse.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 12:52:36 pm
It’s fine for women to chime in and have an opinion on “men’s issues”.  Depending on the woman, I might even value her opinion above yours, despite you being a man.

So who cares?   I care.  Why wouldn’t I?  Why would I dismiss someone’s opinion on a topic strictly because of their gender/orientation?  I find that a shitty thing to do.

That’s what men have been doing to women’s opinions for decades, and I thought we determined at some point that it was wrong to do so.

Well... you're missing a few things:

- I'm not telling people to stay out of it, I'm saying I don't need to add my voice to a topic that impacts women more than men
- Women were told to stay out of things that definitely impacted them
- I'm also not dismissing someone's opinion but it's more about how we think of a "public" discussion space around a topic

I'm really working this out in my mind, the_squid, so please feel free to add ideas to the mix here.

Again - this is about how we form "publics" because such things are very malleable and plastic today.  When democracy was designed there was a static "public" structure and today these things come up in such a way that anyone on earth can provide an opinion on any topic imaginable.  So my question is "how do we deal with it ?".

The idea I have is for people to check out if they aren't significantly impacted.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on December 22, 2020, 01:04:43 pm
Access to something you COULD get?  Like is there some kind of lottery or something?  Seems like you guys need to come up with a better slogan.  Because when it comes down to it, having somebody else terminate your pregnancy, paid for, by other people isn't a right.  Even if you come up with an access list for it.  It also ignores science and biology.  I can understand the ignorance of the issues involved when medical science was limited to the 1960s and 1970s knowledge.  But not now.  There's no excuse.

It's been explained to you once here as I recall but here we go again. Women have the right to seek an abortion in Canada but there are certain limitations to access. The length of the pregnancy to date is one.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 22, 2020, 01:10:56 pm
Well... you're missing a few things:

- I'm not telling people to stay out of it, I'm saying I don't need to add my voice to a topic that impacts women more than men
- Women were told to stay out of things that definitely impacted them
- I'm also not dismissing someone's opinion but it's more about how we think of a "public" discussion space around a topic

I'm really working this out in my mind, the_squid, so please feel free to add ideas to the mix here.

Again - this is about how we form "publics" because such things are very malleable and plastic today.  When democracy was designed there was a static "public" structure and today these things come up in such a way that anyone on earth can provide an opinion on any topic imaginable.  So my question is "how do we deal with it ?".

The idea I have is for people to check out if they aren't significantly impacted.

Sit out whatever topic doesn’t interest you.  I don’t care.

But you made a blanket statement that said “ CIS white male free topic”.

I disagree that an opinion should be dismissed, or not given, based on gender, sexual orientation or the colour of one’s skin.

If you want to sit it out, great.  You’re not needed.  If you’re going to say that my opinion isn’t necessary and that no one should care based on my gender and skin colour, then **** off.  Just like men not caring about women’s opinions based on their gender, I find it unsavoury.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2020, 01:29:52 pm
Access to something you COULD get?  Like is there some kind of lottery or something?  Seems like you guys need to come up with a better slogan.  Because when it comes down to it, having somebody else terminate your pregnancy, paid for, by other people isn't a right.  Even if you come up with an access list for it.

And no one is arguing it is. Christ you're thicker than a concrete milkshake.

The right that is protected, again, is the ability to choose to get a medical procedure without the government telling you you cannot.

No need for a better slogan: abortion rights are extremely popular in Canada and in the U.S.A.

Quote
It also ignores science and biology.  I can understand the ignorance of the issues involved when medical science was limited to the 1960s and 1970s knowledge.  But not now.  There's no excuse.

I'll bite: what has science and biology told us about abortion that was not known in the 70s?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2020, 01:32:11 pm
I don't remember gender being an issue when 9 smiling male justices decided Roe v Wade.  Just matters when a decision doesn't go your way huh?  Weird.
Regardless, I'm not sure what reproductive rights you're referring to.  Asking somebody else to preform a medical procedure, paid for by other people aren't rights.

Legislators aren't courts. One of the reasons we have courts is so legislators can't deprive people of rights.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 02:06:16 pm
1. Sit out whatever topic doesn’t interest you.  I don’t care.But you made a blanket statement that said “ CIS white male free topic”.

2. If you’re going to say that my opinion isn’t necessary and that no one should care based on my gender and skin colour, then **** off.  Just like men not caring about women’s opinions based on their gender, I find it unsavoury.

1. Yeah, that's what I meant "Controversy that doesn't need me to weigh in"
2. Well, you are missing the context so I guess you don't get it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 22, 2020, 03:07:08 pm
1. Yeah, that's what I meant "Controversy that doesn't need me to weigh in"

Does anyone need to weigh in?  Of course not.  But, the reasons for dismissing an opinion shouldn’t be due to one’s gender or colour.

Quote

2. Well, you are missing the context so I guess you don't get it.

No, I get it.  I just don’t agree with you.  I think you’re finding it easier just to dismiss my argument as “not getting it” rather than to try and justify your phrase about cis white males.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 03:38:11 pm
Legislators aren't courts. One of the reasons we have courts is so legislators can't deprive people of rights.
Abortion isn’t a right.  No surgical procedure is a right.  You have no right to other people’s labour.  Courts uphold the law, and the constitution.  Nowhere in the constitution is abortion mentioned as any kind of right.  If you want that codified in the constitution you’d have to amend it through the amendment process.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on December 22, 2020, 03:44:33 pm
Abortion isn’t a right.  No surgical procedure is a right.  You have no right to other people’s labour.  Courts uphold the law, and the constitution.  Nowhere in the constitution is abortion mentioned as any kind of right.  If you want that codified in the constitution you’d have to amend it through the amendment process.

It's about a woman's right to have control over their own bodies. You know, like you have.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 22, 2020, 03:48:22 pm
It's about a woman's right to have control over their own bodies. You know, like you have.
Unfortunately it’s a lot more complex than that.  Not to mention nobody has complete control of their bodies.  Nobody can do whatever they want with them.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2020, 03:57:43 pm
Abortion isn’t a right.  No surgical procedure is a right.  You have no right to other people’s labour.  Courts uphold the law, and the constitution.

LOL this is the stupidest tack possible. No one is out here demanding unwilling medical professionals perform abortions.

Quote
Nowhere in the constitution is abortion mentioned as any kind of right.  If you want that codified in the constitution you’d have to amend it through the amendment process.

I'm begging you, please read one solitary thing on the subject. Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Morgentaler
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 22, 2020, 03:58:15 pm
Unfortunately it’s a lot more complex than that.  Not to mention nobody has complete control of their bodies.  Nobody can do whatever they want with them.

What comparable restrictions are there on men's bodies?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on December 22, 2020, 04:19:01 pm
Unfortunately it’s a lot more complex than that.  Not to mention nobody has complete control of their bodies.  Nobody can do whatever they want with them.

Once again shady you should read a little on a subject, especially a somewhat complex one, before commenting on it. People in Canada have had, for a number of years, the right to terminate the existence of their bodies under certain circumstances. Also, attempting suicide has not been illegal here for 40 years or so. Try to catch up eh.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 22, 2020, 04:32:05 pm
Abortion isn’t a right. 

Criminalizing abortions was ruled unconstitutional as it was a violation of Section 7 of the Constitution.

Ergo, access to an abortion is a right. 

Quote
  Nowhere in the constitution is abortion mentioned as any kind of right.  If you want that codified in the constitution you’d have to amend it through the amendment process.

Nowhere in the Constitution is kissing your spouse either.

However, if spousal kissing was criminalized under the law, it would be deemed a violation of your Constitutional rights. 

Ergo, you and your spouse have a RIGHT (despite it not being in the Constitution) to kiss.

Or maybe you’ll understand this example Shady....

Do men have a RIGHT to access a vasectomy?

If Parliament passed the “Vasectomy Outlaw Act to Save Unborn Children” that said it was illegal to get a vasectomy, this would be struck down by the courts as unconstitutional.   Hence, you have a RIGHT to access a vasectomy.

The only difference between the right to a vasectomy and an abortion being that vasectomies were never legislated against and didn’t need a court ruling.



Edited to add:  Why do we need to go through Grade 10 Social Studies for an adult?   How wildly ignorant does one need to be to not know really simple things about “rights”?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 22, 2020, 04:51:22 pm
Maybe this will help explain unenumerated rights.  There is a section in the Charter explicitly stating we have other rights that are not listed in the Charter.

Quote
Section 26 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, like other provisions within the section 25 to 31 bloc, provides a guide in interpreting how the Charter should affect Canadian society. The section's particular role is to address rights not covered by or mentioned in the Charter.

The section reads:

26. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed as denying the existence of any other rights or freedoms that exist in Canada.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_26_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms



Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 04:55:19 pm
try and justify your phrase about cis white males.

I did.  And you agreed.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 22, 2020, 06:02:01 pm
It's about a woman's right to have control over their own bodies. You know, like you have.

It gets complicated when a woman's body is sustaining the life of another human body which that woman's actions created (with the fella).
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 22, 2020, 06:06:48 pm
Yeah, but... really who cares ? 

Do you feel the need to crowd into a topic where you are barely impacted ?  Are you like those Republican photos where a dozen smiling male legislators are signing somebody's reproductive rights away ?

I see it as "a right to not free speak where it's not needed"...

You were not impacted by the Jewish holocaust and black slavery in the US.  Anyone is allowed to have an opinion on anything.  Especially when people are suffering or dying.

Quote
Are you like those Republican photos where a dozen smiling male legislators are signing somebody's reproductive rights away ?

Nobody should be shamed for having an opinion, especially on a topic as important as babies being killed.  Shame on you!  ;)

Progressive PC bully Michael is out in full force today.  Those social norms are great when we agree with them, aren't they?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 22, 2020, 06:14:37 pm
What comparable restrictions are there on men's bodies?

Men can't grow humans inside them.  So there are none.  Which I don't see how that's relevant.  It's obviously a complex issue in which both sides are justified.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on December 22, 2020, 06:34:37 pm
Women and gays hunt.  How about a topic like vasectomies?
I bet our grandfathers would wonder if you were gay asking about that, especially around the campfire after shootin' and killin' stuff.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 07:10:33 pm
You were not impacted by the Jewish holocaust and black slavery in the US.  Anyone is allowed to have an opinion on anything.  Especially when people are suffering or dying.

How many times to I have to explain that I'm not saying people aren't "allowed" to...

Repost.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 22, 2020, 07:18:32 pm
How many times to I have to explain that I'm not saying people aren't "allowed" to...

Repost.

And yet you shame them.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 22, 2020, 08:33:07 pm
And yet you shame them.

Yes they are allowed to incur my shame.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 23, 2020, 10:39:08 am
Yes they are allowed to incur my shame.

I'm shaming your shame.  This is called shame shame.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 10:44:45 am
I'm shaming your shame.  This is called shame shame.

I know people online who are against shaming.  Like you, they shame in other ways.

Show me a society that worked without a moral sphere.  I'll wait, suspended in cyberspace here.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 23, 2020, 10:52:57 am
I know people online who are against shaming.  Like you, they shame in other ways.

Show me a society that worked without a moral sphere.  I'll wait, suspended in cyberspace here.

It's perfectly ok to be moral, it is necessary for society to function well.  The question is how do we treat those we disagree with?

Shame is perfectly fine IMO, it's simply speech in reaction to other speech, everyone has a right to their opinion.  But then it gets messier when there is cancel culture, and people are denied or lose jobs simply for opinions.  This is legal (i think), since an employee is representing a company and people thinking negatively of an employee because of their opinion can negatively impact business/PR of a company.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 23, 2020, 11:00:03 am
I know people online who are against shaming.  Like you, they shame in other ways.

I think this is shame shame shame.   :P
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on December 23, 2020, 11:05:48 am
Show me a society that worked without a moral sphere.  I'll wait, suspended in cyberspace here.
Every society that's collapsed had one too. Morals don't provide a guarantee.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 11:05:54 am
1.  The question is how do we treat those we disagree with?

2. Shame is perfectly fine IMO, it's simply speech in reaction to other speech, everyone has a right to their opinion.  But then it gets messier when there is cancel culture, and people are denied or lose jobs simply for opinions. 

3. This is legal (i think), since an employee is representing a company and people thinking negatively of an employee because of their opinion can negatively impact business/PR of a company.
1. We 'moralize'. 
2. Why draw the line at 'jobs' ?  How about being exiled, or shunned... or denied social currency ?  The Communist Blacklist would isolate people socially.  I think that's terrible but it did happen and on a different level it has happened innumerable times before or since.
3. Yes, it's legal and understandable in a lot of ways. 

But we're drifting.  You didn't provide me an example of a society that functions without a moral centre, and without moralizing.  Calls for patriotism, loyalty and so on. 

My urging is that people pick up their socks, with respect to their duties in public debate and discussion.   Argue honestly, stop exaggerating problems, stay out of things that don't impact you.  Things like that...

-----

It relates to the fact that trans rights have rocketed to the top of the outrage list for readers of The Sun and The Rebel who are hungry for angertainment.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 11:06:18 am
Every society that's collapsed had one too. Morals don't provide a guarantee.

"Had one" ... get it ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 11:06:50 am
Every society that's collapsed had one too. Morals don't provide a guarantee.

Rome had a strong one.  By the end Caligula or somebody married his horse.

Trump would marry his horse.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 23, 2020, 11:12:01 am
Show me a society that worked without a moral sphere.  I'll wait, suspended in cyberspace here.

Who has claimed otherwise?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 11:59:01 am
Who has claimed otherwise?

Another poster shamed shame.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 23, 2020, 12:03:28 pm
It's perfectly ok to be moral, it is necessary for society to function well.  The question is how do we treat those we disagree with?

Shame is perfectly fine IMO, it's simply speech in reaction to other speech, everyone has a right to their opinion.  But then it gets messier when there is cancel culture, and people are denied or lose jobs simply for opinions.  This is legal (i think), since an employee is representing a company and people thinking negatively of an employee because of their opinion can negatively impact business/PR of a company.

Conservatives: let's enable a system of at-will employment where any employee can be fired for any reason or indeed no reason at all.

*right winger gets shitcanned for having a lousy opinion*

Conservatives: no, not like that!

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 12:21:17 pm
Conservatives: let's enable a system of at-will employment where any employee can be fired for any reason or indeed no reason at all.

*right winger gets shitcanned for having a lousy opinion*

Conservatives: no, not like that!

No no... my favourite was ... on Facebook the students at Concordia were pushing to make it possible to FIRE professors with tenure.  The angertainment was there for the taking and pretty soon every bot account in Estonia was posting about "snowflakes" etc etc.  I noticed that some people were saying "fire the professors"... WHICH WAS WHAT THE STUDENTS WERE ASKING FOR. 

I pointed this out to them and surprisingly they blocked me because... presumably I hurt their feelings :)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 12:23:16 pm
No no... my favourite was ... on Facebook the students at Concordia were pushing to make it possible to FIRE professors with tenure.  The angertainment was there for the taking and pretty soon every bot account in Estonia was posting about "snowflakes" etc etc.  I noticed that some people were saying "fire the professors"... WHICH WAS WHAT THE STUDENTS WERE ASKING FOR. 

I pointed this out to them and surprisingly they blocked me because... presumably I hurt their feelings :)
Wow, students advocating something dumb?  I'm shocked I tells ya!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 12:24:01 pm
Conservatives: let's enable a system of at-will employment where any employee can be fired for any reason or indeed no reason at all.

*right winger gets shitcanned for having a lousy opinion*

Conservatives: no, not like that!
Strawman.  There is no system where somebody can be fired so-called at-will. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 12:26:43 pm
You progressives can stomp your feet and throw a temper tantrum all you want.  But you do NOT have a right to other people's labour.  The second you as for participation, either financially or through labour it ceases to be a right.  Nobody has an obligation to assist you.  That would fall under the category of a privilege.  You people need to learn the difference between a right and a privilege.  Just because you yell and scream that something is a right, doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 23, 2020, 12:33:44 pm
You progressives can stomp your feet and throw a temper tantrum all you want.  But you do NOT have a right to other people's labour.  The second you as for participation, either financially or through labour it ceases to be a right.  Nobody has an obligation to assist you.  That would fall under the category of a privilege.  You people need to learn the difference between a right and a privilege.  Just because you yell and scream that something is a right, doesn't make it so.

Not a single person has claimed a “right to other people’s labour”.  That’s a straw man you’re making up.

Clearly, you didn’t read my explanation about rights.  Let me quote my post for you.  Please let us know which part of it you disagree with and why.



Criminalizing abortions was ruled unconstitutional as it was a violation of Section 7 of the Constitution.

Ergo, access to an abortion is a right. 

Nowhere in the Constitution is kissing your spouse either.

However, if spousal kissing was criminalized under the law, it would be deemed a violation of your Constitutional rights. 

Ergo, you and your spouse have a RIGHT (despite it not being in the Constitution) to kiss.

Or maybe you’ll understand this example Shady....

Do men have a RIGHT to access a vasectomy?

If Parliament passed the “Vasectomy Outlaw Act to Save Unborn Children” that said it was illegal to get a vasectomy, this would be struck down by the courts as unconstitutional.   Hence, you have a RIGHT to access a vasectomy.

The only difference between the right to a vasectomy and an abortion being that vasectomies were never legislated against and didn’t need a court ruling.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 12:36:57 pm
Not a single person has claimed a “right to other people’s labour”.  That’s a straw man you’re making up.

Clearly, you didn’t read my explanation about rights.  Let me quote my post for you.  Please let us know which part of it you disagree with and why.
I've never suggested criminalizing abortions.  Regardless, you don't require anything from anybody else when two spouses kiss.  Surely you can understand the difference. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 23, 2020, 12:43:30 pm
It relates to the fact that trans rights have rocketed to the top of the outrage list for readers of The Sun and The Rebel who are hungry for angertainment.

I don't think it's "angertainment", I think some people have different values than other people, and these are difficult issues to work at as a society, and until we figure this out there will be messiness and mistakes and outrage, along with minds that are sometimes too closed and others that are sometimes too open.

Trans rights at the end of the day affect everyone because we all need to learn how to deal with them, whether in accommodations at the workplace or school or in sport or simply how we view them in our heads.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 12:46:17 pm
I don't think it's "angertainment", I think some people have different values than other people, and these are difficult issues to work at as a society, and until we figure this out there will be messiness and mistakes and outrage, along with minds that are sometimes too closed and others that are sometimes too open.

Trans rights at the end of the day affect everyone because we all need to learn how to deal with them, whether in accommodations at the workplace or school or in sport or simply how we view them in our heads.
Exactly.  Some people don't appreciate the fact that female sports are being obliterated by trans women (ie men that have lived as men for most of their lives but now identify as female).  They have huge biological advantages, and they're ruining female athletics.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 23, 2020, 12:48:01 pm
I've never suggested criminalizing abortions. 

I know you like to try and change the topic...    no one said you want to criminalize anything.  You said getting an abortion is not a right in Canada. 

Well, you’re wrong about that and I explained why.  Let’s stick on that topic. 

Quote
Regardless, you don't require anything from anybody else when two spouses kiss.  Surely you can understand the difference.

I do understand the difference.  Except, you’re getting sidetracked on your labour straw man again. 

That’s why I mentioned a right to a vasectomy.   Focus on that one.

Even if there was no one to provide an abortion, it would still be a right to get one. 

Like in rural areas, there’s no one to perform abortions.  Women still have the right to get one.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 12:52:11 pm
I know you like to try and change the topic...    no one said you want to criminalize anything.  You said getting an abortion is not a right in Canada. 

Well, you’re wrong about that and I explained why.  Let’s stick on that topic. 

I do understand the difference.  Except, you’re getting sidetracked on your labour straw man again. 

That’s why I mentioned a right to a vasectomy.   Focus on that one.

Even if there was no one to provide an abortion, it would still be a right to get one. 

Like in rural areas, there’s no one to reform abortions.  Women still have the right to get one.
There's no right to a vasectomy.  Regardless, the labour issue isn't a straw man, unless you think doctors are slaves of the state.  What if a doctor isn't comfortable preforming an abortion?  Do you want the state to compel them to?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 01:09:42 pm
1. I don't think it's "angertainment", I think some people have different values than other people, and these are difficult issues to work at as a society, and until we figure this out there will be messiness and mistakes and outrage, along with minds that are sometimes too closed and others that are sometimes too open.

2. Trans rights at the end of the day affect everyone because we all need to learn how to deal with them, whether in accommodations at the workplace or school or in sport or simply how we view them in our heads.

1. I agree with what you've saying, but there can still be ANGERTAINMENT within the playing field that you have accurately laid out.
2. I also agree with this, and the overall discussion is something that I think everyone is impacted by.  I just don't see why readers of the Sun would feel the need to jump in on stories about, say, the Australian women's track team.  I don't buy that they have some elevated level of fairness.  It's reactionary busybody work AFAICS.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Omni on December 23, 2020, 01:11:00 pm
There's no right to a vasectomy.  Regardless, the labour issue isn't a straw man, unless you think doctors are slaves of the state.  What if a doctor isn't comfortable preforming an abortion?  Do you want the state to compel them to?

Doctor's of course are not legally required to perform an abortion, they can simply refer someone to another doctor who does. And yes, you do have a right to a vasectomy.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 23, 2020, 01:11:59 pm
There's no right to a vasectomy. 

Then you clearly do not even understand the very basics of what a right actually is. 

Quote
Regardless, the labour issue isn't a straw man, unless you think doctors are slaves of the state.

As I explained, even where there is no one to perform a particular medical procedure, you still have a right to get that procedure, whether it’s an abortion, a vasectomy or lazer eye surgery.

Quote
What if a doctor isn't comfortable preforming an abortion?  Do you want the state to compel them to?

Straw man.  No one says any doctor has to perform any surgical procedure they do not wish to.  That applies to appendix removal, abortions, vasectomies or amputation of limbs etc, etc, etc.

Stay focused.  No one advocated forcing doctors to perform abortions.

By your logic, people don’t have a right to end their own lives with the assistance of a medical professional.  And yet the courts have stated clearly that this is a RIGHT.

You still need a doctor to perform it, but that’s not relevant to whether it’s a right or not.

Quote
 In a unanimous decision on February 6, 2015, the Court struck down the provision in the Criminal Code, thereby giving Canadian adults who are mentally competent and suffering intolerably and enduringly the right to a doctor's assistance in dying.

Here’s the case, if you want to read it.   https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/14637/index.do

 The terms RIGHT to assisted death is interspersed throughout the judgement.  It also mentions that doctors do not need to perform it.

So it is still a RIGHT whether or not a doctor is there to perform it.

See where your confusion lies now?
Quote
 In our view, nothing in the declaration of invalidity which we propose to issue would compel physicians to provide assistance in dying.  The declaration simply renders the criminal prohibition invalid.  What follows is in the hands of the physicians’ colleges, Parliament, and the provincial legislatures.  However, we note — as did Beetz J. in addressing the topic of physician participation in abortion in Morgentaler — that a physician’s decision to participate in assisted dying is a matter of conscience and, in some cases, of religious belief (pp. 95-96).  In making this observation, we do not wish to pre-empt the legislative and regulatory response to this judgment.  Rather, we underline that the Charter  rights of patients and physicians will need to be reconciled.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 23, 2020, 02:07:48 pm
1. I agree with what you've saying, but there can still be ANGERTAINMENT within the playing field that you have accurately laid out.
2. I also agree with this, and the overall discussion is something that I think everyone is impacted by.  I just don't see why readers of the Sun would feel the need to jump in on stories about, say, the Australian women's track team.  I don't buy that they have some elevated level of fairness. 
3. It's reactionary busybody work AFAICS.

1.  Yes agreed.

2.  I would assume people think that gender issues that affect in one english-speaking commonwealth country will often affect another eventually.

3.  Stop worrying about the Jewish holocaust you busybody.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 23, 2020, 02:09:42 pm
Strawman.  There is no system where somebody can be fired so-called at-will.

49 U.S. states are "at-will employment states," most with a few exceptions. Eight of those states- Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, Nebraska, Maine, New York, and Rhode Island-allow employers to fire employees for no reason, with no warning, and without having to establish just cause. Almost 75% of U.S. workers can be shitcanned for absolutely no reason at all.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on December 23, 2020, 02:23:37 pm
1.  I would assume people think that gender issues that affect in one english-speaking commonwealth country will often affect another eventually.

3.  Stop worrying about the Jewish holocaust you busybody.
1. Maybe.  People are into all kinds of weird things.  I'm listening to a podcast of a New York football fan who somehow fell in love with the CFL.  But there's too much distraction and entertainment in politics.  To be honest, if the parties just said "enough of this we're going to allow private groups to apply to the supreme court from now on and set policy that way" then maybe the toxicity in so-called progressive politics would dissipate.

3. Worrying about it ?  How do you worry about something that happened ?  I worry about racism because that affects me.  I don't worry about whether the Mosque on the corner is using a different dialect for their sermons but I do worry if they're preaching antisemitism.  I don't worry about whether ladies' change rooms are making everyone towel up because of transgender issues... they don't need to hear from me.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on December 23, 2020, 03:04:52 pm
Strawman.  There is no system where somebody can be fired so-called at-will.
Ha ha ha ha...

You should try commercial fishing for awhile, it happens all the time. New skippers often bring old crews. I've never seen tears being shed over it...they'd probably just get you laughed off the dock.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 23, 2020, 03:10:47 pm
Ha ha ha ha...

You should try commercial fishing for awhile, it happens all the time. New skippers often bring old crews. I've never seen tears being shed over it...they'd probably just get you laughed off the dock.

An employer actually does have the right to fire an employee for any reason, unless it is for one of the protected reasons in the Charter (gender, race, etc).  They just need to provide them with proper severance.  However, if it’s unionized, then it would fall under the collective agreement.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on December 23, 2020, 03:24:08 pm
An employer actually does have the right to fire an employee for any reason, unless it is for one of the protected reasons in the Charter (gender, race, etc).  They just need to provide them with proper severance.  However, if it’s unionized, then it would fall under the collective agreement.

There's exceptions like contracts and tenure appointments for example. But if your Joe Pipefitter and you make a Facebook post where you use the n-word...good luck dude.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on December 23, 2020, 03:32:43 pm
An employer actually does have the right to fire an employee for any reason, unless it is for one of the protected reasons in the Charter (gender, race, etc).  They just need to provide them with proper severance.  However, if it’s unionized, then it would fall under the collective agreement.
I've seen cases where hired skippers replace the entire crew in a matter of hours.   That sort of pagan ethos is just as often what some owners look for in a skipper.  Unionized fishermen are just about extinct on the coast near as I can tell.  You should see what happens when an owner transfers his quota onto another boat. Jobs and opportunities just evaporate like that.  Used to be we just had trollers and gill-netters rotting away at the dock but now we have trawlers with 20 years of life in them rusting away with nowhere to go and nothing to do.  It's not technological change its simple expropriation. 

There's a reason why some economists regard fishing communities as being just like canaries in a coal mine. As their little fishing economies go so go the larger economy they're embedded in.  There's lots of little drinking villages with a fishing problem all over the world now.  Rights, rights to what exactly?

As for gender in the fishing industry, I had a deckhand who wasn't even allowed to help tie up a boat when she started out as a shore-worker.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 26, 2020, 01:22:01 pm
Shady, did I clear up your confusion?   Where did you go???

Quote
So it is still a RIGHT whether or not a doctor is there to perform it.

See where your confusion lies now?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 31, 2020, 06:22:27 pm
Ha ha ha ha...

You should try commercial fishing for awhile, it happens all the time. New skippers often bring old crews. I've never seen tears being shed over it...they'd probably just get you laughed off the dock.
Then they’d have legal grounds for a wrongful dismissal lawsuit.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on December 31, 2020, 06:29:49 pm
Then they’d have legal grounds for a wrongful dismissal lawsuit.
;D
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 31, 2020, 07:31:09 pm
Then they’d have legal grounds for a wrongful dismissal lawsuit.


LOL

I don’t think you’d make it fishing...  mention “wrongful dismissal” and find yourself thrown off the wharf!!
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: guest78 on December 31, 2020, 08:12:36 pm
;D
It seems like almost everyone in this forum is dumb as bricks.  I guess echo chambers tend to do that to people.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/labour-standards/reports/unjust-dismissal.html
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on December 31, 2020, 09:18:41 pm
It seems like almost everyone in this forum is dumb as bricks.  I guess echo chambers tend to do that to people.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/labour-standards/reports/unjust-dismissal.html


Hahahaha
 ‘Wrongful dismissal’ lawsuits in the fishing industry...   enjoy your swim little boy!! 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: eyeball on December 31, 2020, 10:20:18 pm
It seems like almost everyone in this forum is dumb as bricks.  I guess echo chambers tend to do that to people.
You suddenly seem to live in some weird world where everything is unicorns and lollipops where governments tell the truth and everyone wins just for participating. Trying to make a point on the basis of some principle you've never given a **** about in the past probably explains why you're cocking up so badly at trying to appear progressive.

Until recently at least I don't recall you crying to many crocodile tears over people losing their livelihoods to things like offshore out-sourcing - I recall an attitude that was more along the lines of suggesting lazy overpaid workers start putting in longer hours for less along with relaxing environmental regulations in the name of competitiveness.

You'd probably make a really lousy fisherman but I suspect you'd be a natural born fisheries official or a lobbyist for some big fishing company.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 11, 2021, 10:14:48 am
For the record I think Gina Carano is a goddess and I would have her children if it were biologically possible.  But it isn't, regardless of how I choose to identify.

 -k

Bump

Gina Carano will not be returning to The Mandalorian or the Star Wars galaxy after sharing a post on social media implying that being a Republican today is like being Jewish during the Holocaust. (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/the-mandalorian-star-gina-carano-fired-amid-social-media-controversy)

Weird how so many people who make a living getting punched in the head seem to gravitate towards conspiracy theories and other assorted nonsense. (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/02/mma-ufc-qanon-conspiracy-trump-433852)

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 15, 2021, 11:05:31 pm
They say we should never meet our heroes, and in the age of social media, we get to meet everybody, in a sense.

I take some solace in knowing she was fired for this and not the pronouns thing.

I'm curious to see whether she or Joss Whedon has the more difficult time finding work in the future.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 16, 2021, 06:34:03 am
To be honest, I looked up the Tweet and thought that she wouldn't have been fired for Tweeting this as a Democrat.

In other words, the offense was inferred more than implied.  Fairly inferred, I suppose.  Am I crazy?  She was writing about the roots of hatred.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on February 16, 2021, 09:06:28 am
To be honest, I looked up the Tweet and thought that she wouldn't have been fired for Tweeting this as a Democrat.

In other words, the offense was inferred more than implied.  Fairly inferred, I suppose.  Am I crazy?  She was writing about the roots of hatred.
Sure. I can see how you might think that without the context of her repeatedly saying ridiculous things. This isn't a one-off, but rather the proverbial straw.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 16, 2021, 09:27:38 am
Sure. I can see how you might think that without the context of her repeatedly saying ridiculous things. This isn't a one-off, but rather the proverbial straw.

And that's fair.  People also have been telling me that she's been talking about persecution of Republicans, leading up to this. 

I wish the world would stop being so stupid.  You should have a license, signed by me, to be allowed to state your opinion online.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on February 16, 2021, 09:42:12 am
And that's fair.  People also have been telling me that she's been talking about persecution of Republicans, leading up to this. 

I wish the world would stop being so stupid.  You should have a license, signed by me, to be allowed to state your opinion online.
If there were valid points about Republican persecution being made, then that would be fair too. However, she's bought wholesale into conspiracy nonsense: e.g., wearing a mask is persecution, being vaccinated is persecution, controlling crowded indoor gatherings is persecution (i.e., church closures).

People not liking you or not agreeing with your regressive values and ideas is not persecution by any sense of the imagination, least of which is worth comparing to Nazi Germany for crying out loud. Have your political opinions. If people don't like it, that's their damn right.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 16, 2021, 02:25:20 pm
They say we should never meet our heroes, and in the age of social media, we get to meet everybody, in a sense.

I take some solace in knowing she was fired for this and not the pronouns thing.

I'm curious to see whether she or Joss Whedon has the more difficult time finding work in the future.

 -k

Well one of them is talented with a track record of making bank the other is a block of wood.

Not that Whedon *should* work again but money talks.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 16, 2021, 05:36:55 pm
If there were valid points about Republican persecution being made, then that would be fair too. However, she's bought wholesale into conspiracy nonsense: e.g., wearing a mask is persecution, being vaccinated is persecution, controlling crowded indoor gatherings is persecution (i.e., church closures).

People not liking you or not agreeing with your regressive values and ideas is not persecution by any sense of the imagination, least of which is worth comparing to Nazi Germany for crying out loud. Have your political opinions. If people don't like it, that's their damn right.
I think the market basically takes care of this whole issue.  If a company doesn't like your public opinions because it thinks they're doing harm to a company they can fire you.  If consumers don't like the decision Disney made they can voice their opinion or choose to not give them their business.  Disney is doing this for money and nothing else, and their consumers will vote if this was right or not with their dollars.

Kinda sucks for Disney because a lot of people wanted her fired and a lot of people also are defending her so either way they're screwed.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 16, 2021, 06:37:08 pm
I think the market basically takes care of this whole issue.  If a company doesn't like your public opinions because it thinks they're doing harm to a company they can fire you.  If consumers don't like the decision Disney made they can voice their opinion or choose to not give them their business.  Disney is doing this for money and nothing else, and their consumers will vote if this was right or not with their dollars.

Kinda sucks for Disney because a lot of people wanted her fired and a lot of people also are defending her so either way they're screwed.

Most people don’t give a sh!t as long as the show is entertaining.  But this guy had the most interesting take on it that I’ve read:

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2021/2/14/22280897/disney-firing-gina-carano-was-never-a-free-speech-issue-mandolarian-star-wars

Quote
It was about this time last year when I got a call informing me that (redacted) could no longer use me as an independent contractor. I had worked for the person breaking this news to me for years and while he acknowledged I did good work and that he had asked to keep me on; the decision was made above him. It seems some things I had written did not sit well with the person controlling the purse strings. With that I was out of a job that I enjoyed and no longer working for someone I admired and working with people I was always happy to spend time with. I didn’t like the decision, but I wasn’t surprised.

You see, when I voiced my opinion more openly about the business side of mixed martial arts, I knew my words could have repercussions. I knew who signed the checks and I knew that eventually my opinions were going to get me in trouble. When I was let go, I said nothing because I understood that my firing — for a lack of a better term — was almost inevitable. I also knew the end of my run as an independent contractor with this organization had zero to do with free speech and more to do with speech having repercussions.

So what does my tale have to do with anything? Well, what happened to me is also what happened to Gina Carano. And like my example, Disney firing Carano has zero to do with free speech and everything to do with a company reaching a point where it decided it could no longer have a working relationship with someone.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 16, 2021, 09:08:13 pm
Well one of them is talented with a track record of making bank the other is a block of wood.

Not that Whedon *should* work again but money talks.

So was Harvey Weinstein.

Wheden's problems are probably just beginning.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on February 17, 2021, 10:39:57 am
I think the market basically takes care of this whole issue.  If a company doesn't like your public opinions because it thinks they're doing harm to a company they can fire you.  If consumers don't like the decision Disney made they can voice their opinion or choose to not give them their business.  Disney is doing this for money and nothing else, and their consumers will vote if this was right or not with their dollars.

Kinda sucks for Disney because a lot of people wanted her fired and a lot of people also are defending her so either way they're screwed.
OF course they're doing it for money. When your face and likeness is tied to their company because your visage is part of their most popular franchise at the moment, everything you say publicly becomes a reflection on the company. In an industry where image is everything, they absolutely are going to control their image.

This is the same **** we discussed years ago when a firefighter got fired on Twitter. I had argued then that if he wasn't wearing his uniform, there would be no connecting him to his employer and he wouldn't have been fired. However, the moment you make idiotic comments and you look like the face of a company or are tied to that company, then the company is going to do everything it needs to do to protect itself. If you're projecting an image that they feel is harmful to their profits, they're going to jump on the opportunity to make an example of you to correct the image. Branding, image, etc. are highly profitable. An retail industry executive and I were having coffee one day and I'll never forget something he said, "Everyone thinks Nike makes and sells shoes. Nike doesn't sell shoes. Hell, they don't even make their shoes. They hire outside contractors to do that. What Nike creates is a lifestyle through image and branding. That's their product, not the actual material goods." That's how important image is. So this is why athletes who **** up get tanked and the same goes here for Gina with Disney.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 17, 2021, 01:54:51 pm
So was Harvey Weinstein.

Wheden's problems are probably just beginning.

Wheadon is an ****, but no one to my knowledge has said he's a rapist.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 17, 2021, 07:59:32 pm
Wheadon is an ****, but no one to my knowledge has said he's a rapist.

If the allegations so far are true, this is probably the beginning.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 18, 2021, 04:52:07 pm
If the allegations so far are true, this is probably the beginning.

Yeah maybe, but the comparison with Weinstein is, at this point, off base.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 18, 2021, 05:00:30 pm
Yeah maybe, but the comparison with Weinstein is, at this point, off base.


I wasn't trying to compare Wheadon to Weinstein, just point out how these things have a habit of gaining momentum after the brake is released.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 18, 2021, 06:52:33 pm
They do.  And ... do we think that this may actually be helping Hollywood move to a better way ?

It just occurred to me now that so many vulnerable situations and so many lawyers and so many camera phones might scald the hedonistic beast into behaving.  But I have no idea, I am just asking.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 18, 2021, 07:46:18 pm
They do.  And ... do we think that this may actually be helping Hollywood move to a better way ?

It just occurred to me now that so many vulnerable situations and so many lawyers and so many camera phones might scald the hedonistic beast into behaving.  But I have no idea, I am just asking.

I think it will, it has in other work environments.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 18, 2021, 07:57:51 pm
Japan's Olympic head steps down because of homophobic comment that women talk too much. Replaced by a woman. Karma.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 18, 2021, 08:25:29 pm
Japan's Olympic head steps down because of homophobic comment that women talk too much. Replaced by a woman. Karma.

Homophobic or sexist ?  Japan cares about this ?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2021, 08:52:23 pm
To be honest, I looked up the Tweet and thought that she wouldn't have been fired for Tweeting this as a Democrat.

In other words, the offense was inferred more than implied.  Fairly inferred, I suppose.  Am I crazy?  She was writing about the roots of hatred.

The thing that bothers me most, I think, is that some number of news outlets reported that she made "anti-Semitic remarks" which I don't think is an accurate description of what she posted, and makes it sound as if she is hateful rather than merely stupid.


This article  (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2021/02/gina-carano-mandalorian-fired-hollywood-blacklist-mccarthyism.html)delves into her Twitter history (before wandering off to ponder whether this is comparable to Hollywood blacklisting suspected communists in the 1950s):

Earlier this week, Gina Carano, an actor in The Mandalorian, was fired from her job after a controversy over an allegedly anti-Semitic social-media post. In short order, UTSA, her talent agency, dropped her as a client.

Many media accounts have taken the anti-Semitism charge at face value (USA Today: “… an anti-Semitic Instagram Story that she shared from another user.”) The post in question, which triggered a social-media firestorm that quickly led to her firing and loss of representation, was not anti-Semitic by any reasonable definition. The post simply argued (uncontroversially) that the Holocaust grew out of a hate campaign against Jews, which it then likened (controversially) to hatred of fellow Americans for their political views:

    “Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors … even by children. Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views”

I don’t find this post especially insightful. But overheated comparisons to Nazi Germany are quite common, and, more to the point, not anti-Semitic. There is no hint anywhere in this post of sympathy for Nazis or blame for their victims.

Many of the reports of Carano’s termination string together the trumped-up offense of her post about Nazism with a series of controversial posts. The worst of them is a post insinuating elections are rife with voter fraud and should impose photo ID — a claim that, while provably false, is also a standard-issue Republican belief. The second-most controversial post in her history is a very small joke, in which she added “boop/bop/beep” to her Twitter profile, before apologizing for the insensitivity of seeming to mock the practice of including pronouns in social-media biographies.

The remainder of her case history seems to consist of commonly held beliefs. Variety solemnly reports, “Other posts, including a quote saying ‘Expecting everyone you encounter to agree with every belief or view you hold is **** wild’ and one saying ‘Jeff Epstein didn’t kill himself,’ remained.” The suspicion that Epstein was murdered is hardly unusual. And Carano’s belief that we should not expect everybody we encounter to share all our beliefs is not only widespread but utterly sensible. Indeed this seems to be the central point of disagreement between Carano and her former employer and client.

What’s most striking about the news coverage of Carano’s defenestration is the utter absence of any scrutiny of her employer or her (now-former) agency. The tone of the reporting simply conveys her posts as though they were a series of petty crimes, the punishment of which is inevitable and self-evidently justified. The principle that an actor ought to be fired for expressing unsound political views has simply faded into the background.



 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 18, 2021, 08:59:15 pm
Japan's Olympic head steps down because of homophobic comment that women talk too much. Replaced by a woman. Karma.

He was, like, 114 years old...  not sure why anyone is surprised that the old fella had some outdated views...
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 18, 2021, 09:08:14 pm
He was, like, 114 years old...  not sure why anyone is surprised that the old fella had some outdated views...

Maybe not surprised but it is an international event in which half the participants are women.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 18, 2021, 09:17:51 pm
@kimmy correct, no anti-Semitism I can see either.

Maybe the liberal press has had it with playing fair against FIX and its ugly imitators.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2021, 09:18:09 pm
OF course they're doing it for money. When your face and likeness is tied to their company because your visage is part of their most popular franchise at the moment, everything you say publicly becomes a reflection on the company. In an industry where image is everything, they absolutely are going to control their image.

This is the same **** we discussed years ago when a firefighter got fired on Twitter. I had argued then that if he wasn't wearing his uniform, there would be no connecting him to his employer and he wouldn't have been fired. However, the moment you make idiotic comments and you look like the face of a company or are tied to that company, then the company is going to do everything it needs to do to protect itself. If you're projecting an image that they feel is harmful to their profits, they're going to jump on the opportunity to make an example of you to correct the image. Branding, image, etc. are highly profitable. An retail industry executive and I were having coffee one day and I'll never forget something he said, "Everyone thinks Nike makes and sells shoes. Nike doesn't sell shoes. Hell, they don't even make their shoes. They hire outside contractors to do that. What Nike creates is a lifestyle through image and branding. That's their product, not the actual material goods." That's how important image is. So this is why athletes who **** up get tanked and the same goes here for Gina with Disney.


All of this is true, and it's the flip side of the same coin that saw The Dixie Chicks, and Kathy Griffin, and Colin Kaepernick get shut out of their industries.   I bet a lot of people who are delighted that Gina Carano is out of the Star Wars franchise are the same people who are mad that no NFL team wants Colin Kaepernick.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 18, 2021, 09:22:10 pm

All of this is true, and it's the flip side of the same coin that saw The Dixie Chicks, and Kathy Griffin, and Colin Kaepernick get shut out of their industries.   I bet a lot of people who are delighted that Gina Carano is out of the Star Wars franchise are the same people who are mad that no NFL team wants Colin Kaepernick.

 -k

So you think Disney wants to be associated with someone who thinks Republicans are being persecuted like the Jews were prior to the Nazis taking power in Germany? 

The analogy is just so batshit crazy...   I don’t blame any company for not wanting to be associated with that nut.

Dixie Chicks stood up against an unjust war.   This actress thinks Republicans are being persecuted.  You don’t see a difference? 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 18, 2021, 09:28:06 pm
Maybe not surprised but it is an international event in which half the participants are women.

Well, yeah...   they never should’ve hire the old fella....   I would imagine he’s probably done a lot of good things for Japan since the Shogun was in charge and they wanted to pay him back with a job that would show him some honour near the end of his long run...    they probably didn’t think he’d actually talk!! 

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/l5r/images/5/5d/Seppuku.jpg)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2021, 09:32:39 pm
So you think Disney wants to be associated with someone who thinks Republicans are being persecuted like the Jews were prior to the Nazis taking power in Germany? 

The analogy is just so batshit crazy...   I don’t blame any company for not wanting to be associated with that nut.

Dixie Chicks stood up against an unjust war.   This actress thinks Republicans are being persecuted.  You don’t see a difference? 

It is, as cybercoma and Poonlight agreed, all about the Benjamins. 

The Dixie Chicks' remarks about President Dubya were extremely unpopular with country music fans. End of story.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 18, 2021, 09:36:09 pm
It is, as cybercoma and Poonlight agreed, all about the Benjamins. 

The Dixie Chicks' remarks about President Dubya were extremely unpopular with country music fans. End of story.

 -k

Sure...   boycotting is one thing.  Threatening is another.  What happened to them was closer to what the actress was talking about than what the average Republican is going through...  she’s a whack-a-doodle.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2021, 09:57:57 pm
Sure...   boycotting is one thing.  Threatening is another.  What happened to them was closer to what the actress was talking about than what the average Republican is going through...  she’s a whack-a-doodle.

All I'm saying is that people who like the "she's facing the consequences of using her free speech" argument need to recognize that it applies whether they agree or disagree with what's been said.

I can understand Disney deciding to cut ties with Carano after this controversy. I can also understand country stations dropping the Dixie Chicks from their playlists in 2003, and NFL teams not wanting the hassle of Colin Kaepernick.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 18, 2021, 10:55:20 pm
All I'm saying is that people who like the "she's facing the consequences of using her free speech" argument need to recognize that it applies whether they agree or disagree with what's been said.

I can understand Disney deciding to cut ties with Carano after this controversy. I can also understand country stations dropping the Dixie Chicks from their playlists in 2003, and NFL teams not wanting the hassle of Colin Kaepernick.

 -k

Well, yes...   

So...   that leaves us agreeing that whatever the stance, private companies and private individuals can do whatever they like. 

I think we’d also agree that some stances are right and som are wrong.   History will decide?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2021, 11:02:33 pm
Right and wrong are subjective.  After months of being yelled at by woketards on Twitter, I imagine Carano probably did feel like she was being persecuted.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 18, 2021, 11:08:31 pm
A "cancel culture" story in four parts...

(https://i.imgur.com/l31axtW.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/WwT8BVn.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/R2YVI7h.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/nUMnxM8.png)

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 18, 2021, 11:17:55 pm
Right and wrong are subjective.  After months of being yelled at by woketards on Twitter, I imagine Carano probably did feel like she was being persecuted.

 -k

No, right/wrong is not always a matter of opinion. 

She was definitely objectively wrong.  Republicans are not analogous to persecuted Jews.  She is a conspiratard ala Trump.

The problem is that she’s a crackpot who should’ve just not tweeted.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 19, 2021, 01:24:31 am
If the allegations so far are true, this is probably the beginning.
To me the one that really jumps out is Michelle Trachtenberg's statement that "there was a rule saying that he's not allowed in a room alone with Michelle again."  She described his behavior as "Very. Not. Appropriate."

Trachtenberg was just about 15 years old when she started working at "Buffy". She was a few months past 18 when the series ended.  She was legally a minor for almost the entirety of the time she worked for Whedon.  One can only wonder what kind of situation led to him being not allowed to be alone with her.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2021, 10:20:44 am
Right and wrong are subjective.  After months of being yelled at by woketards on Twitter, I imagine Carano probably did feel like she was being persecuted.

 -k
Ohhh "woketards"

I see. You've thrown in with the lot who appends "tards" to things.

Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on February 19, 2021, 10:21:32 am
She is a conspiratard ala Trump.
You too, I see. **** hell, guys.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 19, 2021, 10:22:54 am
Yeah, just because the level of discussion everywhere has declined, doesn't mean we need to follow suit.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 20, 2021, 11:32:02 pm
A "cancel culture" story in four parts...
*snip*

 -k

But according to all your fave smooth brains, cancel culture is a left wing woke phenomenon. And Robinson himself points out his firing doesn't fit the popular cancel culture narrative in which a (left wing) social media mob acts to get someone fired or sanctioned for saying or doing something that violates the tenets of wokeness. Rather, this is a case of the interests of media and government converging to enforce idealogical conformity.

Maybe it would be helpful if we could arrive at a common working definition of "cancel culture," but I've seen nothing to suggest it actually exists except as a way for grifters like Bari Weiss to rack up subscribers and protect the interests of the powerful.

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 21, 2021, 10:24:14 pm
I totally think we could come up with a definition...

Being booted off Twitter is not cancel culture

Having people not buy your albums is not cancel culture, however, being threatened is.

Not having a contract renewed because a company thinks it’ll lose money is not cancel culture.

Preventing people from seeing someone speak (non-hate speech) in public, or disrupting the speaker who has a right to speak and be heard is cancel culture. 

Accusing Petersen, Sam Harris, Rowling or that pompous bag-o-crap Ben Shapiro of hate speech and trying to prevent them from speaking is cancel culture.

Can we start there?  Do you agree with my list?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2021, 12:26:05 am
I totally think we could come up with a definition...

I would think cancel culture is when people are cancelled due to moral outrage, regardless of the justness of it.  We can all agree to various degrees that there are just and unjust cancellations.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: BC_cheque on February 22, 2021, 12:54:29 am
I think the ultimate cancel culture is calling election fraud and attempting insurrection, but that's just me... 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 22, 2021, 03:17:28 am
I would think cancel culture is when people are cancelled due to moral outrage, regardless of the justness of it.  We can all agree to various degrees that there are just and unjust cancellations.

Too vague.  Your definition allows everything to be considered ‘cancel culture’.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 10:38:17 am
I totally think we could come up with a definition...

Being booted off Twitter is not cancel culture

Having people not buy your albums is not cancel culture, however, being threatened is.

Not having a contract renewed because a company thinks it’ll lose money is not cancel culture.

Preventing people from seeing someone speak (non-hate speech) in public, or disrupting the speaker who has a right to speak and be heard is cancel culture. 

Accusing Petersen, Sam Harris, Rowling or that pompous bag-o-crap Ben Shapiro of hate speech and trying to prevent them from speaking is cancel culture.

Can we start there?  Do you agree with my list?

To the bolded, I see a profound difference between accusing someone of hate speech and physically preventing them from speaking and to blur the line between the two is itself a threat to free speech.

Also you tacitly acknowledge there are circumstances in which it is acceptable to prevent someone from speaking or take away their platforms, so how do you determine when that is ok and when it is not?

One thing proponents of the "cancel culture" narrative tend to elide is the drastic power imbalances that actually determine who has a voice or not. It's ridiculous to claim college students protesting some rich bigot's speaking engagement or the Twitter crowd roasting a sinecured moron's opinion piece in a major newspaper is a drastic threat to free speech and liberal values while ignoring-as most of these boneheads do-ongoing attacks on the free press by corporate interests or even the police. This omission, more than anything else, makes it clear that this narrative is not about protecting liberal values or free speech, but insulating the privileged and powerful from consequences in a time where anyone with a smartphone can call a sitting US senator a dipshit.


Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 22, 2021, 12:41:50 pm
To the bolded, I see a profound difference between accusing someone of hate speech and physically preventing them from speaking and to blur the line between the two is itself a threat to free speech.

Yes, accusing someone isn’t cancel culture...  but preventing them from speaking just because they have been accused would be.

Quote

Also you tacitly acknowledge there are circumstances in which it is acceptable to prevent someone from speaking or take away their platforms, so how do you determine when that is ok and when it is not?

It’s OK when a court has determined that they have spread hate speech.

It’s not up to a mob to determine who can or can’t speak. 

Personally, I think nearly everyone should be allowed to say pretty close to anything they wish, short of being illegal.  If it’s not illegal speech, then a mob has no valid right to prevent it.

Quote
One thing proponents of the "cancel culture" narrative tend to elide is the drastic power imbalances that actually determine who has a voice or not.

This sounds like it’s leading into a justification for a mob to prevent someone from speaking because “they hold the power”.

Quote
It's ridiculous to claim college students protesting some rich bigot's speaking engagement or the Twitter crowd roasting a sinecured moron's opinion piece in a major newspaper is a drastic threat to free speech and liberal values while ignoring-as most of these boneheads do-ongoing attacks on the free press by corporate interests or even the police.

Protesting is fine.  I never said anything about protests being part of cancel culture.  Now you’re shifting the goalposts.

Quote
This omission, more than anything else, makes it clear that this narrative is not about protecting liberal values or free speech, but insulating the privileged and powerful from consequences in a time where anyone with a smartphone can call a sitting US senator a dipshit.

This argument doesn’t make much sense...  it’s a bit convoluted and seems to be shifting the goalposts once again for what we were discussing;  defining what ‘cancel culture’ is.

My narrative is exactly about protecting the liberal value of free speech.  Short of being illegal, anyone can say anything. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 12:53:23 pm
Yes, accusing someone isn’t cancel culture...  but preventing them from speaking just because they have been accused would be.

It’s OK when a court has determined that they have spread hate speech.

It’s not up to a mob to determine who can or can’t speak. 

Personally, I think nearly everyone should be allowed to say pretty close to anything they wish, short of being illegal.  If it’s not illegal speech, then a mob has no valid right to prevent it.

So you're fine with the state restricting speech but not members of the community? That seems like a far more dangerous concession.

Quote
This sounds like it’s leading into a justification for a mob to prevent someone from speaking because “they hold the power”.

Here's a scenario: Jerkoff McGee is going to give a speech at the local university, students organize a protest and boycott and pressure the university to cancel the event. Is that ok? After all, the students are just using their own speech to get their point across and aren't physically preventing anyone from speaking.

Quote
Protesting is fine.  I never said anything about protests being part of cancel culture.  Now you’re shifting the goalposts.

I didn't say you did.

Quote
This argument doesn’t make much sense...  it’s a bit convoluted and seems to be shifting the goalposts once again for what we were discussing;  defining what ‘cancel culture’ is.

It's not that complicated: many of those who complain about cancel culture have a, shall we say, selective notion of free speech. Bari Weiss, for example, is running a whole grift highlighting examples of cancel culture, but has a history of trying to ruin the careers of Arab and Muslim professors who criticize Israel. If that doesn't apply to you, personally, fine.

Quote
My narrative is exactly about protecting the liberal value of free speech.  Short of being illegal, anyone can say anything.

no one is saying speech should be restricted, only that people should not be free from consequences. The question is where that line is.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 22, 2021, 02:48:17 pm
So you're fine with the state restricting speech but not members of the community? That seems like a far more dangerous concession.

That’s the way it has worked so far.   How is it more dangerous to have laws and a court decide rather than a mob?

Quote

Here's a scenario: Jerkoff McGee is going to give a speech at the local university, students organize a protest and boycott and pressure the university to cancel the event. Is that ok? After all, the students are just using their own speech to get their point across and aren't physically preventing anyone from speaking.

Yes, that’s fine, depending on the school’s policies and government policies dictating who can speak on campuses.  They can be open to things like human rights violations if they cancel someone because people just don’t like what they say. 

But, if it was canceled because of security concerns, threats of violence, then it’s no different than right-wing Nazi groups scaring people from speaking about anti-racism.  I would call that ‘cancel culture’.

Quote
It's not that complicated: many of those who complain about cancel culture have a, shall we say, selective notion of free speech. Bari Weiss, for example, is running a whole grift highlighting examples of cancel culture, but has a history of trying to ruin the careers of Arab and Muslim professors who criticize Israel. If that doesn't apply to you, personally, fine.

Criticism of Israel is fair game.  Why should anyone’s career be ruined for criticizing policies?  Are there jackasses who are whiny hypocrites?   Yup.

Quote
no one is saying speech should be restricted, only that people should not be free from consequences. The question is where that line is.

Forcing people with a different opinion than you not to speak is how I define ‘cancel culture’.

I’ve never said that speech should be free of consequences.  But if the consequence is a punch in the face, then, no.  That’s not a legitimate form of protest or consequences.  If it is physically blocking or intimidating people from a venue, then that is also not a valid form of protest or consequence.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 03:08:59 pm
That’s the way it has worked so far.   How is it more dangerous to have laws and a court decide rather than a mob?

Because the state has a lot more power than the mob?

Here's (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/world/europe/france-universities-culture-wars.html) where this gets you.

It should be noted that this stuff in France has been floated closer to home by Jordan Peterson (who planned to build a website that would have listed courses containing “postmodern neo-Marxist course content,” in an effort to decrease enrollment in those courses) and embraced by government's in Ontario and Alberta (under the guise of "academic freedom").

Quote
Yes, that’s fine, depending on the school’s policies and government policies dictating who can speak on campuses.  They can be open to things like human rights violations if they cancel someone because people just don’t like what they say. 

But, if it was canceled because of security concerns, threats of violence, then it’s no different than right-wing Nazi groups scaring people from speaking about anti-racism.  I would call that ‘cancel culture’.

That's fair, but I doubt a lot of those who rail against cancel culture would agree with that narrow definition.

Quote
Criticism of Israel is fair game.  Why should anyone’s career be ruined for criticizing policies?  Are there jackasses who are whiny hypocrites?   Yup.

Forcing people with a different opinion than you not to speak is how I define ‘cancel culture’.

I’ve never said that speech should be free of consequences.  But if the consequence is a punch in the face, then, no.  That’s not a legitimate form of protest or consequences.  If it is physically blocking or intimidating people from a venue, then that is also not a valid form of protest or consequence.

I think most people would agree that violence or threats of violence to deter speech is bad. But that doesn't cover very many examples of people who've supposedly been "canceled" so I think your definition of the phenomenon, while reasonable, is not the same one that is widespread.


Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2021, 03:42:23 pm
Too vague.  Your definition allows everything to be considered ‘cancel culture’.

Not everything, only when people are cancelled.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 03:42:57 pm
Not everything, only when people are cancelled.

So who has been cancelled?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2021, 03:44:25 pm
So who has been cancelled?

I'm sure there's a list online somewhere.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 03:45:07 pm
I'm sure there's a list online somewhere.

But I'm asking you.

EDIT: so i looked up and here are a few people who have been "cancelled," their crimes and their punishments:

JK Rowling
Crime: transphobia
Punishment: forced to live in a draughty castle in Scotland and sleep on bags of money

Woody Allen
Crime: accused of sexually molesting his stepdaughter, definitely married his much younger other stepdaughter
Punishment: gets to keep making movies long after anyone cared about his movies

R. Kelly
Crime: literal crimes
Punishment: currently awaiting trail on multiple charges involving child pornography, sexual assault and more

Louis CK
Crime: cranking his hog in front of women without their consent
Punishment: continues to do stand up i guess?

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2021, 04:00:58 pm
But I'm asking you.

Gina Carano was cancelled.  Whether it was just or not I don't think has any relevance to whether someone was cancelled.  I'm sure there's examples of just "cancel culture".
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 04:03:26 pm
Gina Carano was cancelled. Whether it was just or not I don't think has any relevance to whether someone was cancelled.  I'm sure there's examples of just "cancel culture".

You're just talking about consequences culture. We don't need a new word for that.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 04:37:09 pm
Now this is funny.

CPAC convention dedicated to fighting Cancel Culture cancels speaker for being Politically Incorrect
 (https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/02/cpac-convention-dedicated-to-fighting-cancel-culture-cancels-speaker-for-being-politically-incorrect)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: wilber on February 22, 2021, 06:06:11 pm
Just came across this. Why would anyone want to be a teacher or any other government job that deals with today's public?
Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. It was just a bloody haircut and the kid asked for it. What would they have done if the kid had walked into a barber shop and asked for it?

https://www.abbynews.com/news/burnaby-teacher-disciplined-for-giving-grade-6-student-a-requested-buzz-cut/
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 22, 2021, 06:36:47 pm
Because the state has a lot more power than the mob?

Here's (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/world/europe/france-universities-culture-wars.html) where this gets you.

It should be noted that this stuff in France has been floated closer to home by Jordan Peterson (who planned to build a website that would have listed courses containing “postmodern neo-Marxist course content,” in an effort to decrease enrollment in those courses) and embraced by government's in Ontario and Alberta (under the guise of "academic freedom").

That's fair, but I doubt a lot of those who rail against cancel culture would agree with that narrow definition.

I think most people would agree that violence or threats of violence to deter speech is bad. But that doesn't cover very many examples of people who've supposedly been "canceled" so I think your definition of the phenomenon, while reasonable, is not the same one that is widespread.

I think the only ‘cancel culture’ I am aware of is the few times some folks have been prevented from speaking with the use of violence, intimidation or the pulling of fire alarms. 

Other than that, I don’t consider anything “cancel culture”.   People now use it for every boycott or firing by a private company when it’s “they’re side”.  Like Graham in this thread. 

That now has turned the argument from a legitimate free speech issue into their hurt feelings issue.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on February 22, 2021, 08:23:31 pm
But I'm asking you.

EDIT: so i looked up and here are a few people who have been "cancelled," their crimes and their punishments:

JK Rowling
Crime: transphobia
Punishment: forced to live in a draughty castle in Scotland and sleep on bags of money

Woody Allen
Crime: accused of sexually molesting his stepdaughter, definitely married his much younger other stepdaughter
Punishment: gets to keep making movies long after anyone cared about his movies

R. Kelly
Crime: literal crimes
Punishment: currently awaiting trail on multiple charges involving child pornography, sexual assault and more

Louis CK
Crime: cranking his hog in front of women without their consent
Punishment: continues to do stand up i guess?

I don't think any of those are likely to be what I would consider 'cancel culture'.   I did a very brief search on Rowling and, from what I understand, she and many other authors are decrying 'cancel culture' which they define as being shamed on social media.  I'm not sure I consider that to be the definition.

When did the definition of 'cancel culture' become "any time someone's Twitter feed is flooded with any dickheads"?   I just think then everything starts to fit the definition.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2021, 08:31:22 pm
You're just talking about consequences culture. We don't need a new word for that.

Well there is a new word for it because it has increased in recent years due to social media and an increase in political correctness.  You're perfectly free to disagree with the term but that doesn't mean the term doesn't exist.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on February 22, 2021, 08:34:23 pm
When Rowling and a host of famous liberals wrote a letter decrying the lack of freedom of speech, or somesuch, it was described as being against 'cancel culture'.  I think Rowling is definitely considered part of it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 08:41:53 pm
I don't think any of those are likely to be what I would consider 'cancel culture'.   I did a very brief search on Rowling and, from what I understand, she and many other authors are decrying 'cancel culture' which they define as being shamed on social media.  I'm not sure I consider that to be the definition.

When did the definition of 'cancel culture' become "any time someone's Twitter feed is flooded with any dickheads"?  I just think then everything starts to fit the definition.

Pretty much from Day One. I applaud you for trying to come up with a specific definition, it's always been a bad faith narrative and that's by design.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on February 22, 2021, 08:44:45 pm
Well there is a new word for it because it has increased in recent years due to social media and an increase in political correctness.  You're perfectly free to disagree with the term but that doesn't mean the term doesn't exist.

It's funny you mention "political correctness" when that was what people used to call cancel culture before it was cancel culture. We went through all these same arguments in the '90s and they were dumb then, all that's changed is people now even the a total nobody can embarrass a national columnist and I like to think we're better for it.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2021, 10:19:50 pm
It's funny you mention "political correctness" when that was what people used to call cancel culture before it was cancel culture. We went through all these same arguments in the '90s and they were dumb then, all that's changed is people now even the a total nobody can embarrass a national columnist and I like to think we're better for it.

Well as I've said, there's some examples of cancel culture that are justified.  So what people probably need to do is mind their P's and Q's and not talk on twitter like they do when they're in private because PR is a real thing.

15 years ago Rowling and Carano probably wouldn't be in hot water because they wouldn't have the same platforms to voice opinions.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: kimmy on February 24, 2021, 10:33:39 pm
No, right/wrong is not always a matter of opinion. 

She was definitely objectively wrong.  Republicans are not analogous to persecuted Jews.  She is a conspiratard ala Trump.

The problem is that she’s a crackpot who should’ve just not tweeted.

She was talking about hate becoming part of our political culture, and the only think she's wrong about is thinking that right-wingers are the only ones on the receiving end.

On the internet we've seen "progressives" by the thousands deluge JK Rowling with vile misogynistic slurs and tell her that she should be punched, kicked, stabbed, raped, and killed.  And we see AOC treated pretty much the same by the right wing.

The internet isn't the real world, of course, but we've seen escalating violence at political protests in recent years, with Jan 6 being the pinnacle (so far.)

In Canada we've seen conspiracy kooks assault people just for wearing covid masks, and we saw protesters screaming "kill yourself!" and "bleed out!" at the attendees of a Meghan Murphy talk in Toronto... they even had a fake guillotine they were carrying around to make their point.   We're not yet at Kristalnacht levels of insanity, but the people who vandalized the Vancouver R4pe Relief shelter with death threats and nailed a rat to the door are getting there.

Obviously the comparison to 1930s Germany is overwrought, but hate that Carano was talking about is real and getting worse.

 -k
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on March 05, 2021, 11:28:11 am
Cancel culture opponents have discovered a new weapon against woke ideology: government censorship. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/opinion/speech-racism-academia.html)

Quote
An Arkansas legislator introduced a pair of bills, one banning the teaching of The Times’s 1619 Project curriculum, and the other nixing classes, events and activities that encourage “division between, resentment of, or social justice for” specific groups of people. “What is not appropriate is being able to theorize, use, specifically, critical race theory,” the bills’ sponsor told The Arkansas Democrat Gazette.

Republicans in West Virginia and Oklahoma have introduced bills banning schools and, in West Virginia’s case, state contractors from promoting “divisive concepts,” including claims that “the United States is fundamentally racist or sexist.” A New Hampshire Republican also proposed a “divisive concepts” ban, saying in a hearing, “This bill addresses something called critical race theory.”
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 11:44:19 am
Cancel culture opponents have discovered a new weapon against woke ideology: government censorship. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/opinion/speech-racism-academia.html)
Axing curriculum....is that cancel culture? Or is it just cancel culture when people express their displeasure at others on Twitter?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on March 05, 2021, 12:42:57 pm
Axing curriculum....is that cancel culture? Or is it just cancel culture when people express their displeasure at others on Twitter?

They stopped playing The Merchant of Venice in some jurisdictions in Ontario in the 1980s. 

One of my teachers told us that they got "Catcher in the Rye" assigned at a Catholic Boys school pretty soon after it came out.  These schools were run by Brothers so you can imagine how strict... and yet they saw the value in work that was provocative, insensitive etc.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 12:48:52 pm
They stopped playing The Merchant of Venice in some jurisdictions in Ontario in the 1980s. 

One of my teachers told us that they got "Catcher in the Rye" assigned at a Catholic Boys school pretty soon after it came out.  These schools were run by Brothers so you can imagine how strict... and yet they saw the value in work that was provocative, insensitive etc.
Don't forget when gays were actively hunted out of the RCMP. Cancel Culture?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_machine_(homosexuality_test)

Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 05, 2021, 12:52:51 pm
Cancel culture opponents have discovered a new weapon against woke ideology: government censorship. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/opinion/speech-racism-academia.html)

Yeah that's taking it a bit far.  Postmodern critical theory can be divisive because it's based on identity politics, but it's best to counter ideas we think are bad with better ideas rather than government coercion.

But is it any different than activists using government to push woke ideology to ban the the name of streets, schools, statues etc named after historical figures with some skeletons in the closet?  Or using race and gender quotas in government hiring?

This is a culture war, it is taking place in the private sector, and through government, and everywhere really.  Let's just hope the best ideas win, whatever they are.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 05, 2021, 12:57:38 pm
Don't forget when gays were actively hunted out of the RCMP. Cancel Culture?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_machine_(homosexuality_test)

Didn't Biden reverse Trump's ban on transsexuals in the military, or something along that line.

We're seeing a lot of social and cultural changes the last 5 years or so.  With change, sometimes it can be messy, as we saw in the 1960's, which produced racists murdering MLK, to the Black Panther offering armed protection.  I hope at some point we reach some kind of equilibrium and we figure out which ideas are good and bad, because right now we're throwing all these new ideas on the wall and seeing which ones stick.  Some are good, some aren't.  Trial and error for society.  I have to have faith that most people in society are reasonable and we'll eventually figure out which ideas we go to far and  also when change works out well.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on March 05, 2021, 01:51:22 pm
Yeah that's taking it a bit far.  Postmodern critical theory can be divisive because it's based on identity politics, but it's best to counter ideas we think are bad with better ideas rather than government coercion.

But is it any different than activists using government to push woke ideology to ban the the name of streets, schools, statues etc named after historical figures with some skeletons in the closet?  Or using race and gender quotas in government hiring?

This is a culture war, it is taking place in the private sector, and through government, and everywhere really.  Let's just hope the best ideas win, whatever they are.

Yes, yes it is. For one thing, changing the name of streets and removing statues isn't violating anyone's free speech rights.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: cybercoma on March 05, 2021, 01:53:10 pm
Didn't Biden reverse Trump's ban on transsexuals in the military, or something along that line.
I have no idea.
We're seeing a lot of social and cultural changes the last 5 years or so.  With change, sometimes it can be messy, as we saw in the 1960's, which produced racists murdering MLK, to the Black Panther offering armed protection.  I hope at some point we reach some kind of equilibrium and we figure out which ideas are good and bad, because right now we're throwing all these new ideas on the wall and seeing which ones stick.
I don't think there's been any new ideas. I think the people who've been silenced and oppressed are finally finding communities of support and standing up for themselves. They were always there but were forced to hide, shamed into denying their own existence, or in some cases literally murdered.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on March 05, 2021, 03:02:35 pm
Yeah that's taking it a bit far.  Postmodern critical theory can be divisive because it's based on identity politics, but it's best to counter ideas we think are bad with better ideas rather than government coercion.

But is it any different than activists using government to push woke ideology to ban the the name of streets, schools, statues etc named after historical figures with some skeletons in the closet? 


Yes, it’s very different actually.  Having government stifle free expression is VERY different than the government taking down government-placed statues of historical figures.   Often, those historical figures, at least in the USA, were put up because of political pressure from racist groups, groups that want to glorify the historical secessionist movements, or movements that wanted to keep black people as lesser people.

Quote
Or using race and gender quotas in government hiring?

Please provide a cite for actual government quotas.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on March 16, 2021, 12:21:17 pm
Here is another entry (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/16/julie-burchill-muslim-islamophobic) in the canon of "people who complain about cancel culture are usually bad faith dirtbags".

What an absolute toilet England is.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 16, 2021, 06:49:29 pm
I don't think there's been any new ideas. I think the people who've been silenced and oppressed are finally finding communities of support and standing up for themselves. They were always there but were forced to hide, shamed into denying their own existence, or in some cases literally murdered.

Freeing oppressed people isn't a new idea.  But microaggressions are a new idea.  Defunding the police is a new idea.  Trans people competing in sports or using bathrooms in their transitioned gender is a fairly new idea, at least in implementation on a society-wide basis.  50% quotas for women in cabinet is a new idea, at least in Canada, and at least in implementation.  When you come up with new concepts, and then implement them, society has to figure out what's working in real practical terms, and see which ideas aren't.  It's not going to be a 100% success rate all of the time, sometimes things will need to be tweaked, because sometimes you don't know how things will work until they are tried in real-world application even if they seem good in theory.  In the last 5 years or so there's been a large # of new social ideas being thrown at the wall and implemented.

It's similar to the 1960's.  Lots of new ideas were implemented, from women's rights, sexual freedom, black civil rights.  Some of them have been good, some of them a bit messy (ie: broken families via high # of divorces, single motherhood rate etc).

We've seen an unprecedented # of changes over the last 60 years and we certainly haven't figured it all out quite yet.  As I said, sometimes change is messy.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 16, 2021, 06:56:28 pm
Please provide a cite for actual government quotas.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-5.401/FullText.html
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on March 16, 2021, 08:21:18 pm
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-5.401/FullText.html

No quotas in the act.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 16, 2021, 10:57:06 pm
No quotas in the act.

https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?poster=1562505

"The NCC is committed to building a skilled, diverse workforce reflective of Canadian society. As a result, it promotes employment equity and encourages candidates to indicate voluntarily in their application if they are a woman, an Indigenous person, a person with a disability or a member of a visible minority group."

I'm sure there's many more on the Federal gov jobs site:  https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page2440?requestedPage=1&fromPage=2&tab=1&log=false
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on March 17, 2021, 05:49:43 am
Nothing about quotas in the text.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on March 17, 2021, 10:47:05 am
How the hell does on interpret "we encourage more minorities to apply for the job and are an equal opportunity employer" as "we are trying to hire a set number of minorities"?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2021, 04:24:27 pm
Nothing about quotas in the text.

Read it again.  Then read it again.  Then email them and ask them what their specific quota numbers are.  They don't publish it because they pull it out of their bums.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2021, 04:26:56 pm
How the hell does on interpret "we encourage more minorities to apply for the job and are an equal opportunity employer" as "we are trying to hire a set number of minorities"?

That's not what it says and you know that.  You just like arguing in bad faith.  Read it a few more times.  It says voluntarily declare you are part of X or Y group so we can choose you over others on that basis.  This isn't hard to understand.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on March 17, 2021, 04:28:38 pm
That's not what it says and you know that.  You just like arguing in bad faith.  Read it a few more times.  It says voluntarily declare you are part of X or Y group so we can choose you over others on that basis.  This isn't hard to understand.

Speaking of bad faith it doesn't say that either.

Also, even if policies explicitly favoured hiring minorities, that doesn't mean there are quotas.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2021, 04:35:42 pm
Speaking of bad faith it doesn't say that either.

Read it a few more times.  Then a few more times again.

What do you think the reason is for encouraging "candidates to indicate voluntarily in their application if they are a woman, an Indigenous person, a person with a disability or a member of a visible minority group." during a hiring process?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on March 17, 2021, 04:36:42 pm
Read it a few more times.  Then a few more times again.

What do you think the reason is for encouraging "candidates to indicate voluntarily in their application if they are a woman, an Indigenous person, a person with a disability or a member of a visible minority group." during a hiring process?

So they can try and hire more people from those groups.

Still not a quota, which would be "we need to hire X number of people from Y group".
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2021, 04:48:38 pm
So they can try and hire more people from those groups.

Still not a quota, which would be "we need to hire X number of people from Y group".

"There's not enough of X and Y, let's hire more" is a quota.  I guess a soft quota at the very least.  I have no idea what their actual targets are or how they go about determining how many is not enough.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Black Dog on March 17, 2021, 05:03:23 pm
"There's not enough of X and Y, let's hire more" is a quota.  I guess a soft quota at the very least.  I have no idea what their actual targets are or how they go about determining how many is not enough.

No it's not. A quota is a numerical requirement. A preference is a preference.

Anyway at this point i'm not even sure what your argument is.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2021, 05:35:48 pm
Read it again.  Then read it again.  Then email them and ask them what their specific quota numbers are.  They don't publish it because they pull it out of their bums.

Conspiratard Graham is in da house!!!   

Please show a credible source anywhere that says there are specific quotas.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2021, 08:49:49 pm
Conspiratard Graham is in da house!!!   

I is crazy!!  https://www.complianceweek.com/boards-and-shareholders/understanding-canadas-new-diversity-disclosure-requirements/27805.article

https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/wellness-inclusion-diversity-public-service/diversity-inclusion-public-service/diversity-inclusion-priorities-public-service.html

Ensuring the right benchmarks: Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat will continue to work closely with partners, which includes supporting Employment and Social Development Canada on the review of the Employment Equity Act, to ensure that the public service applies appropriate benchmarks for diversity. Benchmarks are being used to guide the development of strategies to that will strengthen diverse representation throughout the public service.

Benchmarks = quotas.  Of course, I can't find anything on exactly what these benchmarks are.  I guess these are more internal and someone would have to do an access request for them or something.  As I have said I don't have a problem with quotas and diversity hires, and in fact support them, as long as these "benchmarks" are based on some kind of passable social science that can legitimate the benchmarks based on some kind of actual reality of discrimination problems that exist, rather than people just pulling things out of their butts because the PM or ministers want to signal their virtue about how progressive they are.

The whole point is to ameliorate discrimination/bias in hiring so everyone gets more or less a fair shake, the point isn't charity.  Charity needs to come in the form of social programs to help people have a better shot at getting hired on merit, like education.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2021, 09:06:36 pm
Benchmark is a quota now?  Sure...  if you redefine a word to mean something else, then I guess it means something else!   ::)
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2021, 09:30:38 pm
Benchmark is a quota now?  Sure...  if you redefine a word to mean something else, then I guess it means something else!   ::)

What is a benchmark for diversity of employees by an employer?
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2021, 09:39:16 pm
What is a benchmark for diversity of employees by an employer?

Given the context, it’s an aspirational goal.

But I’m not really convinced that you are able to understand the difference between that and a quota.  You may just carry on saying it’s the same thing.

So far, you’ve linked to 3 different things that you claim contain quotas when they don’t.
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on March 18, 2021, 04:50:38 am
What is a benchmark for diversity of employees by an employer?

How about - the employees in your organization are within a standard deviation of representation percentages in the population as a whole, based on general race numbers ? 

A "benchmark" is something to measure against, though, so to say an employer isn't doing this isn't to make a conclusion about the employer.  I worked for employers who had large numbers of gay employees, Jewish employees, and Chinese employees that were discriminatory and evil in their own way. 

I feel that these discussions need to separate those who are arguing in good faith, who are open to ideas vs. those who are only pushing an ideology. 
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: MH on March 18, 2021, 04:54:11 am
Read it again.  Then read it again.  Then email them and ask them what their specific quota numbers are.  They don't publish it because they pull it out of their bums.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quota

I don't think that the government is mandated to meet certain numbers.  If they didn't they couldn't function.

But...

Why don't we just agree on the basics so we can move on ?  I propose a dual set of axioms:

1) No employer should hire based on race alone
2) Racism is a still a problem that needs attention
Title: Re: The Progressive Thread!
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 18, 2021, 02:29:02 pm
Given the context, it’s an aspirational goal.

What evidence do you have for that claim?

They are setting "benchmarks", which is a specific target number to what would be considered a "just" % of people from group X, Y, Z etc being properly represented.  And departments are either encouraged or mandated (we don't know which) to reach those numbers by encouraging employment candidates to self-identity as members of these groups so that the gov can do affirmative action during the hiring process.

And there's nothing wrong with that, because discrimination against these groups does occur.  It simply depends on how they're formulating these "benchmarks", and what is considered a "just" and "unjust" number and why.