Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: MH on January 25, 2020, 07:26:42 am

Title: Covid Culture (was Outbreak Culture)
Post by: MH on January 25, 2020, 07:26:42 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/china-coronavirus-wuhan-public-health-1.5438737?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar

Is this going to be bad ?  What will the impacts be?

And how will these events interact with social media disinformation?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on January 25, 2020, 08:56:31 am
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/world/asia/coronavirus-victims-wuhan.html

Coronavirus Deaths Are So Far Mostly Older Men, Many With Previous Health Issues

This makes me quite happy, for Easy & Joan but maybe not me.  Except I am in 'good health' (for my age)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 25, 2020, 01:04:52 pm
In 2018/19 the "flue" killed between 3 and 5 percent of the worlds population, or between 225 and 375 million today.

That was before air travel.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 25, 2020, 02:21:54 pm
About 800 people died from SARS worldwide, dozens in Canada back around 2003.  Many hundreds of people get shot and die everyyear in Canada.  So I'm not really worried since the odds are good.  Especially since global health protocols and containment are leaps and bounds better since SARS

It's a good media story though.  It is scary, "OMG global pandemic!", but when you look at the #'s it's not a threat.

So far I have survived:

SARS
H1N1
Ebola
West nile virus
HIV
Misc. bird flu
mad cow disease
ozone holes
asteroids
solar flares
acid raid
African killer bees
ticks
Y2K
Mayan calendar armegeddon
Nostradamus armegeddon
lead paint
DDT and various pesticides
BP in my plastic
parabens in my lotions
sulfites
nitrates
misc. food preservatives
gluten
global cooling
global warming
Quebec separation
Alberta separation
the Cold War
Communism
North Korea
Thermonuclear annihilation
al Qaeda
ISIS
Donald Trump
your mom
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 25, 2020, 02:35:57 pm
No, you haven't survived global warming, (still ongoing) Alberta separation, (hasn't/won't likely happen), ISIS, (on the rise especially since Trump pulled troops from the area) and Trump, (still in the WH incase you hadn't noticed.)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on January 25, 2020, 02:40:01 pm
I do think gluten has ever been a concern to anyone who wasn't celiac. But it's a legitimate,  potentially fatal concern to those who are.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 25, 2020, 02:54:41 pm
I do think gluten has ever been a concern to anyone who wasn't celiac. But it's a legitimate,  potentially fatal concern to those who are.

Not a day goes by I don't eat gluten. Usually at b'fast for starters. I have survived so far.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on January 25, 2020, 05:11:05 pm
Not a day goes by I don't eat gluten. Usually at b'fast for starters. I have survived so far.
Me too. I eat Winnipeg rye bread every day. But a celiac friend of mine was almost on his deathbed before he was diagnosed.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 25, 2020, 05:19:10 pm
Me too. I eat Winnipeg rye bread every day. But a celiac friend of mine was almost on his deathbed before he was diagnosed.

Yes I have a friend who suffered similarly and he developed the allergy all of a sudden in middle age.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 25, 2020, 06:54:38 pm
We make our own 100% whole wheat and sometimes rye or other specialty bread. Hardly ever buy store bought.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 25, 2020, 06:55:21 pm
First Canadian case confirmed in Toronto.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on January 25, 2020, 07:23:08 pm
Some posted this thing about the flu killing 10% of infected patients.

So... Given that people constantly have the flu, call in sick with the flu, and yet I have NEVER heard of someone who I know dying from it...

How is it possible??
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on January 25, 2020, 08:18:17 pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_Wuhan_coronavirus_outbreak?fbclid=IwAR0HsihzS_6tF1ODNNqj_ebb42SI4SVXSa2ZMz7saDvOVydOJx42G6L1r78

Wikipedia is on it.  If you see false information, tear a f***ing strip off the poster and tell them to stop being part of the problem.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 25, 2020, 09:00:22 pm
Some posted this thing about the flu killing 10% of infected patients.

So... Given that people constantly have the flu, call in sick with the flu, and yet I have NEVER heard of someone who I know dying from it...

How is it possible??

People call in with the flu but all they have is a cold. Most don't know the difference.
CDC says influenza kills between 12 and 60 thousand annually, mostly from pneumonia.
Children under 5, adults over 65  and people with other medical issues make up most of the fatalities.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on January 28, 2020, 05:51:00 pm
I believe that flu kills 4-5% of those infected.  So far, Novel Corona has a 3% mortality rate.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on January 28, 2020, 06:21:43 pm
it's now down to less than 2.5%.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 28, 2020, 06:35:39 pm
it's now down to less than 2.5%.

THE CHINESE ARE STRONG.   8)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on January 28, 2020, 10:28:03 pm
The flu has a 0.1% fatality rate. 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on January 28, 2020, 10:36:01 pm
The flu has a 0.1% fatality rate. 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

That's far less than the numbers I'd read elsewhere - interesting.

I think where publications are fucking up with the flu stats is this - flu deaths represent 2% of respiratory deaths per year.  The mortality rate isn't generally 2-3% (excluding the Spanish Flu).
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on January 28, 2020, 10:52:22 pm
There's also another thing to consider - it's likely that the Novel Corona has infected far more people than have tested positive, and that the mortality rate is far lower. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on January 28, 2020, 10:57:57 pm
There is so much conflicting information right now.  Masks work.  No they don't.  It's contagious without symptom.  Well, we're not sure. 

I'm personally pretty freaked out, especially given the high number of Chinese/Canadian residents in Vancouver. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on January 29, 2020, 06:38:44 am
Some things pointed out to me:

Not just 'the flu', which includes colds but Influenza that has that fatality rate.

Also coronavirus seems to be impacting older men with a history of health problems.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on January 29, 2020, 11:29:04 am
I'm not worried about myself at all.  I'm healthy and I practice good hygiene, but I do worry about my kids and parents who are elderly.

Not really at this point in time, but if things were to get worse.  There is a lot of travel between Vancouver and China, we could get hit badly if things continue to deteriorate.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 29, 2020, 12:23:14 pm
So far most of our government's reactions have been reactive. I'm wondering how long it will take for them to become proactive and will they wait until it is too late.

The number of cases reported in China has already exceeded SARS.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on January 29, 2020, 03:04:06 pm
So far most of our government's reactions have been reactive. I'm wondering how long it will take for them to become proactive and will they wait until it is too late.

The number of cases reported in China has already exceeded SARS.

Proactive how?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 29, 2020, 03:21:22 pm
Proactive how?

Travel restrictions for starters, instead of just advisories. Airlines, including Air Canada are suspending flights to China.

Dealing with them when they get here doesn't seem like a very sensible approach if people can be contagious for several days before they show symptoms.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 29, 2020, 03:28:24 pm
The Wuhan novel coronavirus appears to be contagious before symptoms appear, as it is estimated to have an incubation period of 10 to 14 days, according to Ma Xiaowei, the director of China's National Health Commission.

That's a quote.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 29, 2020, 03:45:55 pm
The government has finally chartered an aircraft to bring some people home. Better late than never I guess.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on January 30, 2020, 11:35:46 pm
A Hong Kong couple arrived January 25 in Italy to go on a cruise with 6,000 people... what could go wrong?

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/wuhan-coronavirus-spreads-6000-people-held-on-cruise-ship-in-italy/ar-BBZtWtV
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on January 31, 2020, 12:56:43 am
The government has finally chartered an aircraft to bring some people home. Better late than never I guess.

You just finished saying that you don’t want potential infections here....
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: SuperColinBlow on January 31, 2020, 01:21:35 am
Is it possible to prevent a ship like that from making port? Like closing a port against them?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on January 31, 2020, 08:53:44 am
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/asia/china-coronavirus-contain.html?algo=top_conversion&fellback=false&imp_id=744579990&imp_id=274954408&action=click&module=Most%20Popular&pgtype=Homepage

I'm still not worried.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 31, 2020, 09:36:48 am
You just finished saying that you don’t want potential infections here....
Will they be quarantined. If so, I’m good with it. If not, it’s just another case of being reactive while other countries are being proactive.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 31, 2020, 10:18:47 am
Up to 500k people die every year of the flu, about a million die every year from malaria.  So far about 200 deaths in China from coronavirus.  It's just a bad flu strain that kills mostly elderly and people with health problems etc.  1st guy in Canada to get it just was released from hospital.

This is the dumbest scare ever.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 31, 2020, 11:47:38 am
I guess that is why China is trying to build hospitals in six days and many countries are quarantining evacuees from Wuhan, imposing travel restrictions and the WHO is calling this an international emergency. The US has just reported their first case of someone being infected who has never been to China. We also don't know things like how quickly this thing might be able to mutate.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 31, 2020, 12:36:28 pm
Up to 500k people die every year of the flu, about a million die every year from malaria.  So far about 200 deaths in China from coronavirus.  It's just a bad flu strain that kills mostly elderly and people with health problems etc.  1st guy in Canada to get it just was released from hospital.

This is the dumbest scare ever.

Over 10k infected and over 200 dead, and that's just in over a week. No, nothing to worry about there eh?! And oh by the way, last I heard malaria is not an infectious disease. Now what were you saying was dumb?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 31, 2020, 12:54:15 pm
Over 10k infected and over 200 dead, and that's just in over a week. No, nothing to worry about there eh?! And oh by the way, last I heard malaria is not an infectious disease. Now what were you saying was dumb?

It's been around for 2 months not a week.  10k infected and 200 dead isn't a fatality rate i'm that worried about....yet

I'm not saying we shouldn't take precautions but this isn't the bubonic plague.  SARS had a way higher fatality rate.  8000 cases, 774 deaths.

Maybe you old retired dudes have something to worry about lol.

Quote
And oh by the way, last I heard malaria is not an infectious disease.

Yes it is.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 31, 2020, 01:05:46 pm
It's been around for 2 months not a week.  10k infected and 200 dead isn't a fatality rate i'm that worried about....yet

I'm not saying we shouldn't take precautions but this isn't the bubonic plague.  SARS had a way higher fatality rate.  8000 cases, 774 deaths.

Maybe you old retired dudes have something to worry about lol.

Yes it is.

No, it isn't.

You'll notice the graph displayed herein is from Jan 21-29. That's a little over a week isn't it?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 31, 2020, 01:48:20 pm
It's been around for 2 months not a week.  10k infected and 200 dead isn't a fatality rate i'm that worried about....yet

I'm not saying we shouldn't take precautions but this isn't the bubonic plague.  SARS had a way higher fatality rate.  8000 cases, 774 deaths.

Maybe you old retired dudes have something to worry about lol.

Yes it is.

You can’t catch malaria from another human. It is transmitted by certain species of mosquito.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 31, 2020, 01:56:16 pm
And oh by the way, last I heard malaria is not an infectious disease. Now what were you saying was dumb?

"Malaria is a mosquito-borne infectious disease that affects humans and other animals."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria

Quote
You'll notice the graph displayed herein is from Jan 21-29. That's a little over a week isn't it?

"A new coronavirus, designated 2019-nCoV,[3] was identified in late 2019 in Wuhan, the capital of China's Hubei province, after people developed pneumonia without a clear cause and for which existing vaccines or treatments were not effective"

""Date:  1 December 2019–ongoing (1 month, 4 weeks and 2 days)"
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 31, 2020, 01:59:08 pm
You can’t catch malaria from another human. It is transmitted by certain species of mosquito.

Yes, the anopheles mosquito. I speak from experience.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 31, 2020, 02:00:58 pm
"Malaria is a mosquito-borne infectious disease that affects humans and other animals."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria

"A new coronavirus, designated 2019-nCoV,[3] was identified in late 2019 in Wuhan, the capital of China's Hubei province, after people developed pneumonia without a clear cause and for which existing vaccines or treatments were not effective"

""Date:  1 December 2019–ongoing (1 month, 4 weeks and 2 days)"

What is it that you don’t understand about “ mosquito borne” Humans can not catch it from each other, it must be transferred by mosquito bite.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on January 31, 2020, 02:07:04 pm
Malaria can only be transferred by the females of certain species of mosquito which are not native to Canada, although global warming may change that.

My father spent two years in Southeast Asia during WW2 and one of the things he got was malaria. In the fifties he had a relapse which nearly killed him. He was never isolated when he was recovering in hospital.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 31, 2020, 02:12:54 pm
"Malaria is a mosquito-borne infectious disease that affects humans and other animals."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria

"A new coronavirus, designated 2019-nCoV,[3] was identified in late 2019 in Wuhan, the capital of China's Hubei province, after people developed pneumonia without a clear cause and for which existing vaccines or treatments were not effective"

""Date:  1 December 2019–ongoing (1 month, 4 weeks and 2 days)"

Affects humans of course. Not transmitted by humans.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 31, 2020, 02:32:19 pm
Malaria can only be transferred by the females of certain species of mosquito which are not native to Canada, although global warming may change that.

My father spent two years in Southeast Asia during WW2 and one of the things he got was malaria. In the fifties he had a relapse which nearly killed him. He was never isolated when he was recovering in hospital.

I contracted p-falciparum years ago on Bioko Island off the west coast of Africa. That type is the deadliest form of malaria. I was treated there and felt good by the time I was headed home. Three days back in Canada and I had a relapse. The treatment here did the job and  I was never isolated in either country since the medical profession is well aware that malaria is not communicable between humans. I did have a lot of pin holes in my left arm from blood samples monitoring the progress of the treatment.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 31, 2020, 02:37:57 pm
I see the Dow is down currently about 600 points and I just heard a comment from the TV news that it is likely due to the Corona virus threat. Makes sense I guess since the quarantine with China etc. will not be good for business.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on January 31, 2020, 04:06:05 pm
What is it that you don’t understand about “ mosquito borne” Humans can not catch it from each other, it must be transferred by mosquito bite.

I never said otherwise.

Omni said malaria isn't an "infectious disease", which isn't true.  It's a disease and you can get infected by it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on January 31, 2020, 04:14:04 pm
I never said otherwise.

Omni said malaria isn't an "infectious disease", which isn't true.  It's a disease and you can get infected by it.

Yes I said infectious when I meant contagious. My point again is that comparing malaria it to a virus such as what we see with Corona is not at akk accurate.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 01, 2020, 12:31:52 pm
Honestly, if you include the suspected cases, the fatality rate is below 1%.  This isn't something to get upset about.  China is over reacting because last time they under reacted and got filleted for it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 01, 2020, 12:50:01 pm
Unfortunately though, some of the steps required to contain such outbreaks have serious impacts on economies. For instance currently United, Delta, and American airlines have all shut down flights to and from mainland China. That has certainly caused their shares to drop and then when you consider the passenger movement that curtails the effects expand. We can see what the markets all did Friday. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 02, 2020, 10:20:27 am
Unfortunately though, some of the steps required to contain such outbreaks have serious impacts on economies. For instance currently United, Delta, and American airlines have all shut down flights to and from mainland China. That has certainly caused their shares to drop and then when you consider the passenger movement that curtails the effects expand. We can see what the markets all did Friday.

Air Canada suspended flights to China four days ago. So far, nothing from the government. We are still relying on people to self report if they have symptoms.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 10:34:59 am
Air Canada suspended flights to China four days ago. So far, nothing from the government. We are still relying on people to self report if they have symptoms.

By all indications, this is a relatively mild virus.  Canada has already said that we don't intend to declare a public health emergency...mainly because there isn't one.

Air Canada stopped flying to China, btw, because people were cancelling their tickets over the virus out of fear and caution. Flights were leaving with 40-50 people in the last few days.  This decision was made over a lack of revenue generation. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 02, 2020, 12:01:12 pm
By all indications, this is a relatively mild virus.  Canada has already said that we don't intend to declare a public health emergency...mainly because there isn't one.

Air Canada stopped flying to China, btw, because people were cancelling their tickets over the virus out of fear and caution. Flights were leaving with 40-50 people in the last few days.  This decision was made over a lack of revenue generation.
Caution that the government doesn’t seem to share. If this thing starts to run away, it will be too late to change tactics. Fortunately, other countries are not being so complacent and will probably limit the spread for us.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 12:08:40 pm
Caution that the government doesn’t seem to share. If this thing starts to run away

What's the evidence of that?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 02, 2020, 01:37:10 pm
Up to 500k people die every year of the flu, about a million die every year from malaria.  So far about 200 deaths in China from coronavirus.  It's just a bad flu strain that kills mostly elderly and people with health problems etc.  1st guy in Canada to get it just was released from hospital.

This is the dumbest scare ever.

If you want to play the numbers game than maybe consider these: the incidence of death from the flu annually is .1%, so far the death rate from Corona is a little over 2%.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 01:41:39 pm
If you want to play the numbers game than maybe consider these: the incidence of death from the flu annually is .1%, so far the death rate from Corona is a little over 2%.

That's actually not correct - that's the death rate from confirmed cases only - there are significantly more suspected cases.  They bring the death rate to somewhere around 0.5%, almost exclusively in China.  The death rate for flu in China is not far from that.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 02, 2020, 01:54:00 pm
That's actually not correct - that's the death rate from confirmed cases only - there are significantly more suspected cases.  They bring the death rate to somewhere around 0.5%, almost exclusively in China.  The death rate for flu in China is not far from that.

Over 14,000 infected, 305 deaths. Not hard to do the math.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 02:12:47 pm
Over 14,000 infected, 305 deaths. Not hard to do the math.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

Again, that's confirmed cases only:

On the 31st, there were ~11K confirmed cases and ~15K suspected (the tests hadn't come back yet).  There was, at that point, 259 dead.  That means that in China, the fatality rate was .99%

https://www.ft.com/content/96bd61c2-226f-31f4-99fa-02cb85c42bf2
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 02, 2020, 02:40:48 pm
Again, that's confirmed cases only:

On the 31st, there were ~11K confirmed cases and ~15K suspected (the tests hadn't come back yet).  There was, at that point, 259 dead.  That means that in China, the fatality rate was .99%

https://www.ft.com/content/96bd61c2-226f-31f4-99fa-02cb85c42bf2

The point being that over 2% of confirmed cases have resulted in death. If your coughing but not from Corona virus then you won't die from it.
If your symptoms turn out to be from the virus than unfortunately you have the possibility of joining that 2%.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 02, 2020, 02:41:38 pm
What's the evidence of that?

If you need evidence it has run away, you are far too late. Basically, our government is just crossing its fingers while others are being  proactive. It is expressing far more concern about alleged racism than the disease itself.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 02:55:35 pm
If you need evidence it has run away, you are far too late. Basically, our government is just crossing its fingers while others are being  proactive. It is expressing far more concern about alleged racism than the disease itself.


You're all for shutting down the economy for a virus of marginal danger, but can't see why we should change our way of life for an extinction level danger.  This virus has been overblown.  SARS was a completely different matter.  This is not an emergency and we shouldn't be treating it as such. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 03:03:59 pm
https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-01-24/china-coronavirus-panic
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 02, 2020, 03:11:42 pm


You're all for shutting down the economy for a virus of marginal danger, but can't see why we should change our way of life for an extinction level danger.  This virus has been overblown.  SARS was a completely different matter.  This is not an emergency and we shouldn't be treating it as such.

Who said anything about shutting down an economy. I can tell you that if I was arriving from Wuhan after spending more than a day or two there, I would want to be quarantined for the simple reason I wouldn't want to risk infecting my family when I got home.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 02, 2020, 03:30:48 pm
You're all for shutting down the economy for a virus of marginal danger, but can't see why we should change our way of life for an extinction level danger.  This virus has been overblown.  SARS was a completely different matter.  This is not an emergency and we shouldn't be treating it as such.

There's lots of reports that the major airports aren't doing proper screening or often any screening of passengers on planes coming from China.  Screening doesn't reduce economic activity, it's just being proactive.

The sky isn't falling but we should take it seriously if the WHO is saying it's "a global health emergency of international concern". https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51318246

You might feel differently if you lived in Vancouver.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 04:25:10 pm
There's lots of reports that the major airports aren't doing proper screening or often any screening of passengers on planes coming from China. 

The same is true of the US, from the stories from people actually arriving on flights from China.  As recent as yesterday, PVG-LAX had no screening.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 02, 2020, 05:35:19 pm
The same is true of the US, from the stories from people actually arriving on flights from China.  As recent as yesterday, PVG-LAX had no screening.

Ok, that doesn't have anything to do with what Canada is doing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 05:48:10 pm
Ok, that doesn't have anything to do with what Canada is doing.

In this very thread it's been said that Canada's been doing something less or different, when that doesn't seem to be the case.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 02, 2020, 05:52:05 pm
In this very thread it's been said that Canada's been doing something less or different, when that doesn't seem to be the case.

The US just banned foreign travelers from China besides immediate family members of Americans.  I wouldn't go that far, but it refutes your point.

Is there anything you won't defend the Trudeau gov on?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 02, 2020, 06:50:51 pm
The US just banned foreign travelers from China besides immediate family members of Americans.  I wouldn't go that far, but it refutes your point.

Is there anything you won't defend the Trudeau gov on?

These decisions aren't made by politicians, but public health officials, generally.  Is there anything that people won't attack the ____________ government for?

Oh, and speaking of proactive:

https://www.baytoday.ca/national-news/newsalert-canadian-evacuees-to-be-quarantined-in-trenton-2065120

Canada is doing this the same as everyone else.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 02, 2020, 06:54:32 pm
Oh, and speaking of proactive:

https://www.baytoday.ca/national-news/newsalert-canadian-evacuees-to-be-quarantined-in-trenton-2065120

This is great news.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2020, 12:47:46 pm
And now this.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-airlift-china-canada-repatriation-1.5452393

It seems our government finally woke up. Maybe supposed racism isn't the biggest issue concerning this virus after all.

Hope it isn't a bit late.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 05, 2020, 04:59:26 pm
And now this.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-airlift-china-canada-repatriation-1.5452393

It seems our government finally woke up. Maybe supposed racism isn't the biggest issue concerning this virus after all.

Hope it isn't a bit late.

Originally, very few Canadians indicated they wanted to leave.  In the last week that changed.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on February 06, 2020, 12:43:31 pm
A Hong Kong couple arrived January 25 in Italy to go on a cruise with 6,000 people... what could go wrong?

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/wuhan-coronavirus-spreads-6000-people-held-on-cruise-ship-in-italy/ar-BBZtWtV


OMG, not the year for taking a cruise.

The totally benign, just like any other flu, nothing-to-see-here coronavirus has quarantined another cruise ship after 20 people tested positive.

Tinfoil-wrapped meals are also dropped off at the cabins three times a day by staff wearing face masks.

Fun in the sun!!

Nearing 30K incidents and 563 deaths, media and its hysteria shutting down cruises and stuff.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/coronavirus-b-c-man-among-those-stuck-on-quarantined-cruise-ship-in-japan/ar-BBZHXey?ocid=hplocalnews
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 06, 2020, 12:55:35 pm

OMG, not the year for taking a cruise.

The totally benign, just like any other flu, nothing-to-see-here coronavirus has quarantined another cruise ship after 20 people tested positive.

Tinfoil-wrapped meals are also dropped off at the cabins three times a day by staff wearing face masks.

Fun in the sun!!

Nearing 30K incidents and 563 deaths, media and its hysteria shutting down cruises and stuff.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/coronavirus-b-c-man-among-those-stuck-on-quarantined-cruise-ship-in-japan/ar-BBZHXey?ocid=hplocalnews

Hey I'm taking a cruise tomorrow on BC ferries from Sidney to Tswassen. If you don't hear from me for a while it's because some foreigner coughed and I'm bobbing around on the Georgia Strait for a couple weeks.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2020, 02:54:15 pm

OMG, not the year for taking a cruise.

The totally benign, just like any other flu, nothing-to-see-here coronavirus has quarantined another cruise ship after 20 people tested positive.

Tinfoil-wrapped meals are also dropped off at the cabins three times a day by staff wearing face masks.

Fun in the sun!!

Nearing 30K incidents and 563 deaths, media and its hysteria shutting down cruises and stuff.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/coronavirus-b-c-man-among-those-stuck-on-quarantined-cruise-ship-in-japan/ar-BBZHXey?ocid=hplocalnews

When everyone on that ship dies, you might change my mind and convince me that this is something to worry about.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2020, 06:03:38 pm
When everyone on that ship dies, you might change my mind and convince me that this is something to worry about.

If this virus is that communicable, it’s not out of the question that millions could become infected if we just ignore it. If 10% of the global population gets it and there is a 1% fatality rate, that adds up to 7.5 million deaths.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 06, 2020, 07:08:02 pm
If this virus is that communicable, it’s not out of the question that millions could become infected if we just ignore it. If 10% of the global population gets it and there is a 1% fatality rate, that adds up to 7.5 million deaths.

I’m not saying to ignore it - I’m saying personal panic over it for most people isn’t a good use of time. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2020, 07:49:42 pm
I’m not saying to ignore it - I’m saying personal panic over it for most people isn’t a good use of time.

Panic is never productive.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 06, 2020, 08:41:52 pm
The doctor who sounded the warning on this virus and was accused of spreading lies just died from it. He was 34 years old.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/chinese-doctor-sounded-alarm-coronavirus-dies-1.5454863
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 07, 2020, 05:16:53 am
The doctor who sounded the warning on this virus and was accused of spreading lies just died from it. He was 34 years old.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/chinese-doctor-sounded-alarm-coronavirus-dies-1.5454863

And we know nothing about his medical status otherwise.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 07, 2020, 09:20:12 am
And we know nothing about his medical status otherwise.
During the 1918 pandemic 1/3 of the earths population became infected. Assuming modern medicine could keep the mortality rate to 1%, that would still mean 25 million deaths world wide. But of course as soon as the disease spreads to countries without access to good medical services and were people are already suffering from poor living conditions and diet, their mortality rate will be much higher. Also, when your front line health care workers start becoming infected, even good health care systems can start to buckle.

Limiting it’s spread is crucial.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 04:57:25 am
Outside of China, there have been 319 confirmed cases and 1 death.  Do the math.

Again - the world response has been great at stopping this virus.  For most of us though, it should be treated as a non event.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 09:05:23 am
Outside of China, there have been 319 confirmed cases and 1 death.  Do the math.

Again - the world response has been great at stopping this virus.  For most of us though, it should be treated as a non event.

Unless you are stuck on a cruise ship. The math is far from done with this virus.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 22, 2020, 12:47:18 pm
About 800 people died from SARS worldwide, dozens in Canada back around 2003.  Many hundreds of people get shot and die everyyear in Canada.  So I'm not really worried since the odds are good.  Especially since global health protocols and containment are leaps and bounds better since SARS

It's a good media story though.  It is scary, "OMG global pandemic!", but when you look at the #'s it's not a threat.

So far I have survived:

SARS
H1N1
Ebola
West nile virus
HIV
Misc. bird flu
mad cow disease
ozone holes
asteroids
solar flares
acid raid
African killer bees
ticks
Y2K
Mayan calendar armegeddon
Nostradamus armegeddon
lead paint
DDT and various pesticides
BP in my plastic
parabens in my lotions
sulfites
nitrates
misc. food preservatives
gluten
global cooling
global warming
Quebec separation
Alberta separation
the Cold War
Communism
North Korea
Thermonuclear annihilation
al Qaeda
ISIS
Donald Trump
your mom

hey add coronavirus to the list!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 22, 2020, 12:57:35 pm
Unless you are stuck on a cruise ship. The math is far from done with this virus.

Corona has recently topped SARS as to the # of deaths and is running a death rate slightly over 2% death rate which is much higher than the flu's ~.1%. I hear now alos that Italy has just reported two deaths. I don't think it's time to let the guard down anytime soon.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 24, 2020, 12:23:20 pm
Dow down over 1000 points right now on virus fears.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2020, 02:27:48 pm
Iran is now officially reporting a dozen deaths from Corona virus, however a report I just listened to on BBC by reporter with feet on the ground there says it's actually more like fifty or higher. Hard to imagine the Iranian government actually lying about anything, it could actually add to the panic.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 24, 2020, 03:10:14 pm
I'm saving up my sheckles to be ready to go all in on whichever company comes up with a Corona vaccine.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 26, 2020, 11:21:27 pm
I've never seen the media pump so much fear into people unnecessarily.  What some companies do for web hits is disgusting.  Even the CBC is doing it and sticking things like this on the front page:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/coronavirus-panic-canada-1.5473606

Like seriously?  Trying to scare people into buying food and supplies?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 26, 2020, 11:32:18 pm
I've never seen the media pump so much fear into people unnecessarily.  What some companies do for web hits is disgusting.  Even the CBC is doing it and sticking things like this on the front page:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/coronavirus-panic-canada-1.5473606

Like seriously?  Trying to scare people into buying food and supplies?

The media is simply reporting the wave of fear that has been born from the spread of this virus, they are not creating it as you seem to suggest. Once again you missed the point.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2020, 12:31:08 am
The media is simply reporting the wave of fear that has been born from the spread of this virus, they are not creating it as you seem to suggest. Once again you missed the point.

They're feeding off the fear to attract eyeballs.

Are you such a small man that you have to insult me in every other reply?  Grow up.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 27, 2020, 12:47:31 am
They're feeding off the fear to attract eyeballs.

Are you such a small man that you have to insult me in every other reply?  Grow up.

Wasn't trying to insult you. Simply pointing out that the media is covering what is a very serious event.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on February 27, 2020, 01:40:15 am
This sh.it’s startin’ to get real.....
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on February 27, 2020, 06:02:22 am
What is wrong with being aware that we don't know how bad this virus will get? That's not panic. That's just basic planning. Nobody has an immunity to this thing and its spread is currently uncontained. If a lot of people are sick at once and a lot of others are staying home because they don't want to get sick, things get forked up pretty quickly. In that context, telling them to buy an extra bag or two of dried fruit isn't exactly irresponsible.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 27, 2020, 09:02:12 am
I've never seen the media pump so much fear into people unnecessarily.  What some companies do for web hits is disgusting.  Even the CBC is doing it and sticking things like this on the front page:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/coronavirus-panic-canada-1.5473606

Like seriously?  Trying to scare people into buying food and supplies?

Health officials are now saying it is a good idea to have at least a week of supplies in case you have to self quarantine.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on February 27, 2020, 11:26:03 am
Health officials are now saying it is a good idea to have at least a week of supplies in case you have to self quarantine.

Idea for a thread...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on February 27, 2020, 12:36:45 pm
This sh.it’s startin’ to get real.....

I live in a neighbourhood which, according to the stats on realtor.ca, is 21.7% Chinese/Korean and 3.6% Iranian.  The 6th case of cornovirus lives in Maple Ridge and even though they won't tell us anything, her kids have somehow had contact in our school district (we're in the tricities).  One school in Pitt Meadows is closed from what I hear but that could be hearsay.  There are people in quarantine though who were in the same hospital as that 6th case in Maple Ridge.  I read that one on the news.

My toddler has chronic bronchial issues and has been on antibiotics over 6 six times in her 27 months of life.  My parents are both in their 70's.

I'm so sick of people living in butt-**** nowhere downplaying it.  Yes, even if I'm healthy and would likely survive it, I worry about the people around me.  **** is real indeed.


Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 27, 2020, 01:00:23 pm
Health officials are now saying it is a good idea to have at least a week of supplies in case you have to self quarantine.

13 cases in Canada so far.  We're not at that stage yet.

They're telling people how to shave their faces.  Playing into people's fears for web hits:  https://globalnews.ca/news/6599952/facial-hair-beards-coronavirus/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 27, 2020, 01:28:02 pm
Well the Dow is on it's way to a 3rd 1k loss. I wonder if that has been spurred on at all by Trump announcing he is putting Mike Pence in charge of the Corona virus issue. Perhaps someone with at least a little bit of medical experience/knowledge may have been a better choice.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 27, 2020, 04:11:28 pm
I have thought to myself more than once that I could happily do a Lee Harvey Oswald on Donald Trump, but now I see he is attempting to play down an issue that is on the brink of becoming a health pandemic, and putting a guy in charge of dealing with it who has said previously that he doesn't believe smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer, I think it would be more appropriate if the Corona virus took a sweep through the White House and the muck was eliminated that way.

And Trump can now carve a notch in his belt to note that while he was in power the DJI dropped the most points in one day in it's history.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 28, 2020, 02:13:23 pm
I never knew until today that Ex Prime minister Jean Chretien's brother Michel has had a long time career in medical research, and was for a time the worlds 7th most cited scientist. He and his team have turned their focus to the Corona virus and think they may have an answer which they are now testing. If it proves effective they say it could go into mass production relatively quickly, and would be relatively cheap to make. Good to hear the possibility of some good news on this issue and I'm keeping fingers, toes and anything else I can think of crossed.

The best hope for an antiviral drug may come from Michel Chrétien’s Montreal lab
by Nick Taylor-Vaisey

Feb 24, 2020

 The U.S.-based Food and Drug Administration has already approved quercetin as safe for human consumption, which means the researchers can skip testing on animals. If the treatment works, it’ll be readily available. Now Chrétien just needs the funding to start the trials. He estimates the teams need $5 million. But the payoff, he says, could be huge.

Chrétien’s team says their treatment would cost only $2 a day. They’ve spent weeks pursuing officials at Global Affairs Canada, including senior staff in the office of Foreign Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne. The request was then flipped to Health Canada. There’s no time to waste, says Chrétien. “I’ve been doing science all my life. I’ve stumbled on things my entire career, and this is probably the most urgent one I’ve been confronted with,” he says.

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/a-made-in-canada-solution-to-the-coronavirus-outbreak/


There was also a segment on CBC radio The Current this am with Chretien and one of his colleagues interviewed on the subject.

https://21393.mc.tritondigital.com/CBC_CURRENT_P/media-session/d42d4c42-3c4f-44f6-8ff4-adaa5d836c77/current-nwENDGpf-20200228.mp3
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on February 29, 2020, 01:56:57 pm
the stupid - it burns!

(https://i.imgur.com/75yMBKg.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on February 29, 2020, 07:27:13 pm
Maybe every cloud does have a silver lining.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51691967
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 29, 2020, 08:47:22 pm
That's crazy.  No wonder markets are way down.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on February 29, 2020, 09:10:22 pm
Maybe every cloud does have a silver lining.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51691967

I guess if you are struggling through a respiratory disease it's helpful to have some clean air to breathe for a change.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 01, 2020, 07:54:20 am
That's crazy.  No wonder markets are way down.

Business has effectively stopped in China as I understand.  The economic hit will be a major part of this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 01, 2020, 07:56:16 am
https://slate.com/technology/2020/02/coronavirus-silent-spread-actually-good-sign.html

Slate sees the Washington case as possibly a hopeful sign.  If true, then the virus would be far less infectious than though.  The author is an emergency physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital and an instructor at Harvard Medical School.  But note he is not an epidemiologist.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 01, 2020, 10:23:43 am
Are we all dead yet?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JBG on March 01, 2020, 10:27:38 am
Are we all dead yet?
From the December 20, 1918 New York Times (link). 7,002 Influenza Cases In a Week. Boston, December 14 (1918).-
Quote from: New York Times
The present outbreak of influenza in Massachusetts is only one-seventh as severe as the previous one, three months ago, according to figures given out today by the State Department of Health. For the present week 7,002 new cases were reported In the State with 99 deaths.

Maybe a bit of hysteria today?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 01, 2020, 11:54:08 am
From the December 20, 1918 New York Times (link). 7,002 Influenza Cases In a Week. Boston, December 14 (1918).-
Maybe a bit of hysteria today?

The time to be concerned and proactive is now, these things can get away in a hurry. That isn't hysteria, it is prudence. If one person infects ten others, one becomes ten becomes 100, becomes 1000 becomes 10,000, becomes 100,000 etc, etc.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2020, 12:25:12 pm
The time to be concerned and proactive is now, these things can get away in a hurry. That isn't hysteria, it is prudence. If one person infects ten others, one becomes ten becomes 100, becomes 1000 becomes 10,000, becomes 100,000 etc, etc.

1 million becomes 100 trillion people infected.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 01, 2020, 12:50:55 pm
I'm all for being proactive and ready.  Even though this is more serious than it was, there's still way too much panic.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 01, 2020, 02:24:21 pm
I'm all for being proactive and ready.  Even though this is more serious than it was, there's still way too much panic.

Ready for what, when it gets away?

Some of the public will always panic but they won't determine where this goes.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2020, 03:55:04 pm
Donald Trump claims the Corona virus may be just a "hoax", Rush Limpdick claims "it's just a cold", Sean Hannity of course agrees, Don Trump junior says "the democrats want millions of people to die in the US from the virus so they can blame daddy and get him out of office", and who backs him up?, why non other than the equally stupid Vice President of course. WTF next?   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2020, 04:25:44 pm
Ready for what, when it gets away?

Some of the public will always panic but they won't determine where this goes.

The panic will be worse than the virus if the virus gets away on us, so yes they will.  Empty store shelves because of hoarding won't exactly be fun, it has already started parts of Italy and some Costco's in the USA near big Asian populations.

We're talking about a potentially very serious situation.  Runs on the banks as people look to take out cash, runs at gas stations, and of course runs on the stock market as we've already seen a bit.

People or cities quarantined (self or gov enforced) is almost as serious as the virus itself.  If people aren't going to work and supply chains are disrupted that's not good.  We're still getting our crap made in China so that's good so far LOL.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 01, 2020, 04:47:20 pm
The panic will be worse than the virus if the virus gets away on us, so yes they will.  Empty store shelves because of hoarding won't exactly be fun, it has already started parts of Italy and some Costco's in the USA near big Asian populations.

We're talking about a potentially very serious situation.  Runs on the banks as people look to take out cash, runs at gas stations, and of course runs on the stock market as we've already seen a bit.

People or cities quarantined (self or gov enforced) is almost as serious as the virus itself.  If people aren't going to work and supply chains are disrupted that's not good.  We're still getting our crap made in China so that's good so far LOL.

Actually we're not still getting our "crap" from China, ask Microsoft for instance among others. Broken supply chains are what is causing the stock market drops, but on the plus side, current sat. photos show a significant reduction in air pollution over China as people stay home from work.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 03, 2020, 03:14:33 pm
I have to go out and do some shopping today and I'm hearing the price of toilet paper is skyrocketing as everyone prepares for Covid-19. Had I seen this coming I would have invested heavily in Proctor and Gamble. Oh well, too late, and I don't give a crap anyway.  :)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 06, 2020, 11:42:41 pm
Are we all dead yet?

I don't think anyone ever said we're all gonna die. 

You're making light of something that is potentially the pandemic of the century.  Maybe you're young and live in an unaffected area but many of us are worried about our communities.  Some have compromised immune systems.  I know I'm worried about my parents more than anything. 

China doesn't bring their economy to a halt and build hospitals in a week over a flu.  It's 35 times more fatal than the flu and much more contagious. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 07, 2020, 12:03:57 am
Ready for what, when it gets away?

Some of the public will always panic but they won't determine where this goes.

Vancouver has officially had its first community transmission.  Someone who had not been in contact with a known infected person and who had not traveled anywhere.

It'll continue to get bad here just like it has in Europe, Iran, South Korea and Japan.

It wasn't a matter of if, it was when, and this is it. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 07, 2020, 05:11:29 am
I think that I am going to get this at some point.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2020, 01:53:26 pm
No more free samples at Costco apparently. Damn! Oh well, I didn't want to line up for a truckload of toilet paper anyway. And also how could you eat a free sample with a mask on?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2020, 03:32:07 pm
As if things weren't already bad enough in China, now a hotel being used as quarantine housing collapses trapping over 70 people. So let's see, I may have a deadly virus, I'm corralled in a building with dozens of others who may also be infected, and now I am trapped under the collapsed bones of that building. All in all not a great day!

   https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/07/china/china-coronavirus-hotel-collapse/index.html
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 07, 2020, 04:10:26 pm
I think as times goes on, these challenges will bring us closer together.

I have a feeling of this incident that it's not so far away as China once was.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2020, 04:58:34 pm
I think as times goes on, these challenges will bring us closer together.

I have a feeling of this incident that it's not so far away as China once was.

Lets hope that the racism against Asians doesn't spread as the virus continues to do so.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 07, 2020, 05:30:23 pm
Anyone else see Kelly Anne Conway lying out her ass, as usual, supporting her bosses lies about how the virus "has been contained"? Gawd she makes me want to puke whenever I see her face on the screen. I wonder if when she and Donny are in quarantine she will swab out his bed pan for him like she does all the rest of his shit. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 08, 2020, 06:26:34 pm
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5355d604e4b03c3e9896e131/1583191370871-XA64FYPS4O2DUGEMGH9D/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kAwMyiTzanHZaxReUPjO2kpZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZUJFbgE-7XRK3dMEBRBhUpwtD6xgdQUVWvr9873pCezxVlSD2W7vx5ac7quQO8PAq6ojFw5uhpMWg6udpD1qi8s/image-asset.png?format=1000w)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 08, 2020, 11:35:32 pm
I don't think anyone ever said we're all gonna die. 

You're making light of something that is potentially the pandemic of the century.  Maybe you're young and live in an unaffected area but many of us are worried about our communities.  Some have compromised immune systems.  I know I'm worried about my parents more than anything. 

China doesn't bring their economy to a halt and build hospitals in a week over a flu.  It's 35 times more fatal than the flu and much more contagious.

It’ll be ironic when I die from it.

We don’t actually know the fatality rate yet.  We actually have no idea and won’t for a long time, because we don’t know how many people have actually contracted the virus.  Our best guess is currently the rate in South Korea - 0.6%. Even that is likely a high estimate.  What makes this virus dangerous is an abnormally high rate of critical cases.  It’s going to be difficult and it’s going to kill people and that’s terrible.  On the other hand, I make light of a lot of terrible things, because that’s who I am.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: ?Impact on March 09, 2020, 08:58:38 am
We don’t actually know the fatality rate yet.  We actually have no idea and won’t for a long time, because we don’t know how many people have actually contracted the virus.  Our best guess is currently the rate in South Korea - 0.6%. Even that is likely a high estimate.

Just like the regular flu, the fatality rate is skewed by demographics. If the rate is 0.6% in the general population, it will be a lot higher for grandma, newborn Sarah, and Uncle Bill who had a kidney transplant and is taking immunosuppression medication.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2020, 11:24:44 am
Just like the regular flu, the fatality rate is skewed by demographics. If the rate is 0.6% in the general population, it will be a lot higher for grandma, newborn Sarah, and Uncle Bill who had a kidney transplant and is taking immunosuppression medication.

Yes, critical cases are more serious for this virus than with the flu, and that's worrisome.  Fear and panic just won't do anything.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 02:44:28 pm
So Trump goes off on some silly, useless tweet tangent trying to blame the Dems. for the virus. Pence is telling the public they should continue to go on cruise ships while ships sit off shore with ever increasing numbers of infected passengers. Perhaps the best thing for America just now is for those two idiots to be infected and be quarantined so they have to shut the fuck up.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2020, 04:55:13 pm
It’ll be ironic when I die from it.

We don’t actually know the fatality rate yet.  We actually have no idea and won’t for a long time, because we don’t know how many people have actually contracted the virus.  Our best guess is currently the rate in South Korea - 0.6%. Even that is likely a high estimate.  What makes this virus dangerous is an abnormally high rate of critical cases.  It’s going to be difficult and it’s going to kill people and that’s terrible.  On the other hand, I make light of a lot of terrible things, because that’s who I am.

The death rate in Italy is 5%.  That's not insignificant for a developed country like ours.

I'm sure all the death rate #'s are inflated since not everyone gets tested who contracts it.  Cases with little or no symptoms aren't tested.

Being in the middle of nowhere Manitoba you don't have much to fear.  If you live in Vancouver or Toronto it's a different story.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2020, 04:55:46 pm
Hey the global markets imploded today. That was fun.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2020, 09:51:12 pm
The death rate in Italy is 5%. 

It's crazy that the numbers in Italy are 10x the numbers in South Korea.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 09, 2020, 09:55:50 pm
Maybe the infection rate is actually higher.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 09, 2020, 10:18:37 pm
Maybe the infection rate is actually higher.

Likely - it seems to be extremely virulent.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2020, 09:59:40 am
Are we all dead yet?
Look. It's not worth panicking about yet, but let's not be so cavalier about it. This is likely many times more deadly than the regular flu. The elderly are particular at risk with a high death rate. COVID-19 is highly contagious and people will die from it and it's likely that millions will eventually contract it. For the vast majority of people it will just be like any other flu, but make no mistake, many, many people will die.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2020, 10:04:26 am
It's crazy that the numbers in Italy are 10x the numbers in South Korea.
Numbers have been blowing up due to more rigorous testing. Not necessarily increasing infections.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 10, 2020, 01:41:23 pm
Numbers have been blowing up due to more rigorous testing. Not necessarily increasing infections.

I'm talking about the death rate.  it's 0.6% in South Korea, and 5% in Italy.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 10, 2020, 01:42:09 pm
Look. It's not worth panicking about yet, but let's not be so cavalier about it. This is likely many times more deadly than the regular flu. The elderly are particular at risk with a high death rate. COVID-19 is highly contagious and people will die from it and it's likely that millions will eventually contract it. For the vast majority of people it will just be like any other flu, but make no mistake, many, many people will die.

I think I'm more responding to media sensationalism than actual seriousness.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: ?Impact on March 10, 2020, 02:23:02 pm
There are now 110,000 cases of which 29,000 are outside of China. Canada got our first case confirmed on January 27, and we are now up to 62 cases. Another interesting metric is how many countries have confirmed a case. If we just look at the first 9 days of this month we can see that it is spreading rapidly:

March 1 - 62
March 2 - 68
March 3 - 76
March 4 - 80
March 5 - 85
March 6 - 89
March 7 - 94
March 8 - 102
March 9 - 105
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 10, 2020, 02:30:34 pm
I think I'm more responding to media sensationalism than actual seriousness.

1) Is it the same strain
2) Do they really know how many have it ?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 10, 2020, 02:47:58 pm
1) Is it the same strain
2) Do they really know how many have it ?

It seems to depend heavily on what "they" you are talking about. Death rates vary widely, due in large part to country's ability to test. A chart I recently looked at shows for instance the death rate in the US is 5.9%, while in South Korea it is 0.6%. The slow reaction by the US to provide test kits compared to that of S. Korea is a major cause of the influx. I suspect death rates in the US will fall once they get testing increased. Of course age demographics also have a significant impact.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 10, 2020, 03:05:11 pm
I think you got it right Omni
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 10, 2020, 05:27:40 pm
First death in Canada, was in his 80's in an old age home with underlying health problems.  Canada's death rate is 1.2% based on that.  79 cases as of today.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 10, 2020, 05:30:51 pm
Everyone in the world needs to stop traveling for like a month.  If you don't travel it's extremely difficult to spread.  Countries should have clamped down hard on travel a month ago.  We should be banning non-essential travel to and from places like Italy, South Korea, China.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 11, 2020, 12:21:28 am
geezaz! It just got real! Not a single roll of TP to be found at my local Save-On... a freakin' empty aisle!

(https://www.meme-arsenal.com/memes/432a8619784789c9e63fb84cf0e27f45.jpg)

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 12:46:58 am
Everyone in the world needs to stop traveling for like a month.  If you don't travel it's extremely difficult to spread.  Countries should have clamped down hard on travel a month ago.  We should be banning non-essential travel to and from places like Italy, South Korea, China.

Many people have to travel for work. I used to be one of those. I wonder if my boss would have happily continued to pay me for staying home. I suspect not since that would have seriously reduced the accounts receivable.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 11, 2020, 07:19:46 am
Many people have to travel for work. I used to be one of those. I wonder if my boss would have happily continued to pay me for staying home. I suspect not since that would have seriously reduced the accounts receivable.

This is part of having a business. 

You have an implied obligation to take care of your people... of course it's not required but those times when you ask extra of people will come into play in these situations.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 11:35:14 am
This is part of having a business. 

You have an implied obligation to take care of your people... of course it's not required but those times when you ask extra of people will come into play in these situations.

You can't take care of your people if you go bankrupt and that is what a lot of companies will be facing if this goes on for any length of time.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 11, 2020, 12:03:43 pm
You can't take care of your people if you go bankrupt and that is what a lot of companies will be facing if this goes on for any length of time.

I get that.  My experience is that business people cry poor too often.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 01:36:41 pm
This is part of having a business. 

You have an implied obligation to take care of your people... of course it's not required but those times when you ask extra of people will come into play in these situations.

That's true, businesses should not only always just focus on the bottom line, but also be willing to lend a hand to help the people who help create that bottom line, especially in a situation like this. Of course there are limits to what a business can do and stay afloat, and so it's good to see that the federal government has stepped up to do its part. JT today announced a billion dollar spending package to help in various ways to try to get through this problem, including waving the week delay for people needing EI if they need to self quarantine or get laid off. Canada seems to doing much better than our neighbors to the south, with of course condolences to the man in North Vancouver who has been taken by the virus, and that seems to be in part because we have a much more efficient testing process, and again, people here with symptoms are more usually more able to stay home without worrying about next months rent. And of course we don't suffer from having a leader who thinks the whole thing is a "democratic hoax", and won't adhere to professional advice to not shake hands all day long.       
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 11, 2020, 04:23:13 pm
I worked from home today.  I might do it tomorrow.

I heard the Scarborough office is closing and all are told to WFH.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 05:00:16 pm
Just hearing that Italian PM has ordered the closing of all bars and restaurants throughout the country. Grocery stores and pharmacies will be allowed to remain open. Jeez, that's gonna have a serious impact on an already weakened economy, not only internally but I can imagine tourist traffic grinding to a dead stop.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: ?Impact on March 11, 2020, 05:05:14 pm
Just hearing that Italian PM has ordered the closing of all bars and restaurants throughout the country.

Does that include bistros, or do the Italians consider them sacred?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 05:18:59 pm
Does that include bistros, or do the Italians consider them sacred?

I'm sure they do consider them sacred but bistros included from what I heard. Schools/universities have been closed for about a week now as well.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 11, 2020, 06:01:56 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ILX5xkQMRI
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 07:37:56 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ILX5xkQMRI

Hey Waldo, have you posted this over at redneckville? BC for instance might get his knickers in a knot with his buddy trump actually demonstrating his stupidity, personally, yet again.  ;)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 08:09:09 pm
Six minutes in and the horse shit flowing from trump's fucking mouth is just what I expected. I hope the sob dies from corona!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 11, 2020, 08:18:11 pm
Six minutes in and the horse **** flowing from trump's **** mouth is just what I expected. I hope the sob dies from corona!

Actually I thought he was restrained... clearly somebody got to him.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 08:24:51 pm
Actually I thought he was restrained... clearly somebody got to him.

Hew was rambling on reading from his teleprompter, which he is not good at, especially when it says things he doesn't want tyo be true and that he doesn't really understand.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2020, 09:05:32 pm
So apparently Tom Hanks has corona virus
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 09:12:07 pm
So apparently Tom Hanks has corona virus

He and his wife.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 11, 2020, 09:16:40 pm
Entire NBA has postponed its season. One player has tested positive for Coronavirus.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2020, 09:38:26 pm
Entire NBA has postponed its season. One player has tested positive for Coronavirus.

NHL shares a lot of the same venues as NBA, NHL evaluating things as we speak.  This sucks.  I want sports and Woody from Toy Story.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2020, 09:38:55 pm
The markets are going to take another dive tomorrow over this news.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2020, 10:05:36 pm
Apparently this movie is fairly accurate as to what could happen in a really bad outbreak of a virus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sYSyuuLk5g

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/02/16/802704825/fact-checking-contagion-in-wake-of-coronavirus-the-2011-movie-is-trending
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 10:15:19 pm
The markets are going to take another dive tomorrow over this news.

They're more likely to take a dive after trump's ridiculous speech tonight.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2020, 10:20:09 pm
They're more likely to take a dive after trump's ridiculous speech tonight.

Corona can only enter the US or any country by travel.  It's not such a crazy thing to restrict travel given how the entirety of Italy is going into lockdown.  I guess we'll see.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 11:01:31 pm
I get that.  My experience is that business people cry poor too often.

The way this is going, a lot of businesses will be going under, and not just small businesses.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 11, 2020, 11:08:22 pm
Corona can only enter the US or any country by travel.  It's not such a crazy thing to restrict travel given how the entirety of Italy is going into lockdown.  I guess we'll see.

The craziest thing so far is an idiot like trump deciding the virus was just a hoax even though health professionals said otherwise. Yhe US is therefore far behind in dealing with this issue.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 12, 2020, 11:14:11 am
Justin Trudeau and his wife are self isolating.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 12, 2020, 11:16:58 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid19-premiers-coronavirus-1.5495001

Sophie has symptoms
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 12:25:02 pm
So Trumpty dumbty goes ahead and makes a stupid speech response to the Corona issue and throws in a European travel ban, gives no warnings to European leaders saying "that's too many phone calls to make", and of course the market takes yet another nose dive. Could old orange face get any stupider? Probably. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 01:16:05 pm
And trump, now that he has been nudged and told corona is not a hoax, he babbles on as to "millions of tests will be carried out". So far they have carried out ~11,000 tests in total. South Korea does around that many DAILY!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 02:21:37 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid19-premiers-coronavirus-1.5495001

Sophie has symptoms

Good to see them set an example by self isolating instead of ignoring infection protocols like the orange buffoon.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 12, 2020, 02:29:18 pm
NHL is postponed.

Australian Grand Prix is canceled. 

Baseball is delayed. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 02:37:54 pm
I was really looking forward to the start of the F1 season. Several team members had symptoms and McLaren pulled out when one of theirs was positive. The FIA had previously said they couldn't hold a championship series unless all the teams were present.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on March 12, 2020, 04:52:26 pm
The prime minister is a healthy young man and I am sure he will be fine.

The NHL has put the season on hold.  The Oilers were finally going back to the playoffs, now the season might be toast. :(

I was planning on going to Vancouver in April, but now I am thinking it would be safer to stay home.

I was at a concert on Friday, and now I'm coughing and sneezing.  I started wondering if I picked up coronavirus there.  I'm told the symptoms take 10-14 days to develop, so I guess the answer is no.  Still, the hype is getting me on edge.  I understand that for most people the virus itself isn't that big of a risk, but with my chronic lung issues I'm one of the ones who probably needs to be careful.

I really love being out and around town, so all of this is very depressing.

I thought the Roaring 20's were going to be an exciting new decade full of exuberance and adventure, but so far it's the exact opposite. 2020 really sucks so far.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 05:30:01 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid19-premiers-coronavirus-1.5495001

Sophie has symptoms

Apparently Sophie has recovered from her symptoms already and is doing fine but is still self-isolating.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 05:30:53 pm
The markets are going to take another dive tomorrow over this news.

TSX down over 12%.  Graham is the next Warren Buffett!

I mean the Canadian economy retracked by 12% IN ONE DAY.  That's insane.  The DOW dove by 10%.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2020, 05:36:21 pm
TSX down over 12%.

Petro stocks will not do very well when people are staying home.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 06:07:43 pm
Petro stocks will not do very well when people are staying home.

Bank stocks are down over 20% in the last month.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2020, 06:15:56 pm
Bank stocks are down over 20% in the last month.

Canadian banks have a large exposure to energy companies. RBC has the biggest exposure, BMO is next, then National Bank. The others are not far behind.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 06:17:23 pm
Petro stocks will not do very well when people are staying home.

True.  The Saudis are also flooding the market with oil, , which includes Canada.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 06:35:16 pm
Canadian banks have a large exposure to energy companies. RBC has the biggest exposure, BMO is next, then National Bank. The others are not far behind.

Maybe you should look at the BNN ticker. It is a sea of red, everything is being hit bigly.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 06:38:04 pm
Maybe you should look at the BNN ticker. It is a sea of red, everything is being hit bigly.

TSX has consistently been dropping more than the US market.  I'm the difference is the oil.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 12, 2020, 07:00:17 pm
The prime minister is a healthy young man and I am sure he will be fine.

The NHL has put the season on hold.  The Oilers were finally going back to the playoffs, now the season might be toast. :(

I was planning on going to Vancouver in April, but now I am thinking it would be safer to stay home.

I was at a concert on Friday, and now I'm coughing and sneezing.  I started wondering if I picked up coronavirus there.  I'm told the symptoms take 10-14 days to develop, so I guess the answer is no.  Still, the hype is getting me on edge.  I understand that for most people the virus itself isn't that big of a risk, but with my chronic lung issues I'm one of the ones who probably needs to be careful.

I really love being out and around town, so all of this is very depressing.

I thought the Roaring 20's were going to be an exciting new decade full of exuberance and adventure, but so far it's the exact opposite. 2020 really sucks so far.


 -k

It’s best to take precautions, particularly if you are vulnerable.  Avoid crowds until it blows over.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 12, 2020, 08:56:10 pm
Sophie tested positive.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 09:07:24 pm
Sophie tested positive.

I see that. I imagine Justin will close down his attendance at public events for a couple of weeks just in case.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 09:23:34 pm
If Trudeau had banned travel to/from Europe she wouldn't have gotten it.   :D I kid, I kid.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 09:27:45 pm
Trudeau can't even protect his damn wife from the virus, how is he going to protect Canada?

We should have restricted travel over a month ago.  We should have been screening at airports before that.  The only way it spread to other countries is travel. The lock-down thats going on now is way, way too late.  The virus can't be stopped now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 09:48:00 pm
Trudeau can't even protect his damn wife from the virus, how is he going to protect Canada?

We should have restricted travel over a month ago.  We should have been screening at airports before that.  The only way it spread to other countries is travel. The lock-down thats going on now is way, way too late.  The virus can't be stopped now.

What would you have him do, tie his "damn wife" to the kitchen table? Sheesh!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 09:54:03 pm
What would you have him do, tie his "damn wife" to the kitchen table? Sheesh!

Keep her inside Canada maybe?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 10:20:36 pm
Keep her inside Canada maybe?

She had a prearranged speaking engagement in London.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 11:33:41 pm
Trump so far says he is not concerned about having been in close proximity to someone with corona and won't bother getting a test. This continues then to confirm his testing positive for arrogant stupidity. So now "the swamp' is not only infested, it is now likely infected. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 13, 2020, 07:00:01 am
(https://i.imgur.com/sljt43h.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 13, 2020, 11:10:59 am
She had a prearranged speaking engagement in London.

Yes I know.  Sports leagues have shut down their seasons, musicians have cancelled tours. She can skip a speech.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 13, 2020, 11:12:04 am
Trump so far says he is not concerned about having been in close proximity to someone with corona and won't bother getting a test. This continues then to confirm his testing positive for arrogant stupidity.

LOL that was a good one honestly.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 13, 2020, 11:40:01 am
Trudeau took some time to address the nation but it was a superior performance to Trump's IMO.  Also he had extra shit going on, being personally impacted.    :'(
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2020, 12:03:43 pm
Trudeau took some time to address the nation but it was a superior performance to Trump's IMO.  Also he had extra **** going on, being personally impacted.    :'(

Yes, Trudeau spoke like a leader and answered questions, unlike that pathetic performance from the orange buffoon. Apparently Trump is supposed to speak again today so watch for the markets to hit the skids again. Someone please lock him in his room and take his phone away.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 13, 2020, 12:09:32 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/7svxBMK.png)

prevention help... and less hipsters - win, win!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 13, 2020, 12:29:41 pm

prevention help... and less hipsters - win, win!

Women should also shave their vaginas.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 03:30:35 pm
Well I listened to about all I can stand of Trump's latest news conference just now on this issue. The complete and utter horse shit out of his and Pences' mouths was even deeper than I expected. I purposely counted and it was about six seconds after Trump started off before I caught him in his first lie. And of course they didn't stop. And the purpose of having a bunch of store owners invited to the podium for 10 seconds each to say "we're struggling but we hope to come out fine" was such a waste of time. Sad,sad state of affairs.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 13, 2020, 03:48:26 pm
Was it all CEOs I heard ?  What the....  ???

Also why do you do this to yourself...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 03:51:46 pm
Was it all CEOs I heard ?  What the....  ???

Also why do you do this to yourself...

I guess I like to keep track of what's going on in the world, especially when the current event has had such an impact.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 13, 2020, 04:01:14 pm
I understand he had the CEOs of Target, Walmart and CVS up there ?

What in the actual f*** ?  At some points are his supporters not going to get a feeling that their lives are at risk ?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 04:06:00 pm
I understand he had the CEOs of Target, Walmart and CVS up there ?

What in the actual f*** ?  At some points are his supporters not going to get a feeling that their lives are at risk ?

He shook hands with damn near everybody he called to the podium. Apparently he might agree to get a test. He could use a few beyond Covid I'd submit.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 13, 2020, 08:49:33 pm
Trudeau just limited flights to Canada.  This should have been done a month ago.

My friend just arrived back from vacation at Pearson airport in Toronto.  She said there was no screening except some self-serve kiosk that didn't do jack all.  She said everyone was tense and fearful in the airport.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 13, 2020, 09:22:22 pm
https://twitter.com/CAPAction/status/1238565108437135361?s=09

Must see, Trump on the removal of the pandemic office.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 13, 2020, 09:59:23 pm
Corona now has 3.7% fatality rate.  96.7 survival rate.  Probably fatality rate is lower because of people who haven't been tested.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 10:38:58 pm
Corona now has 3.7% fatality rate.  96.7 survival rate.  Probably fatality rate is lower because of people who haven't been tested.

Maybe you learned math at Trump college.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 10:47:00 pm
Corona now has 3.7% fatality rate.  96.7 survival rate.  Probably fatality rate is lower because of people who haven't been tested.

Fatality rate in S. Korea is currently 0.6%. In the US 5.9%. The US has tested ~11,000 people so far. S. Korea does that daily. Hopefully your concept of math can interpret the differences.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 14, 2020, 12:46:37 am
Around 1,300 people have died in Italy...   and this is within a couple weeks...  has it been longer?  Well a thousand people dying in a couple weeks is something very much out of the ordinary. 

It’s past time to take this thing very seriously. 

Unfortunately, the USA has a population that loves to think they’re “independent” and don’t need the guvmint telling them what to do...   plus, they have shit healthcare....   there’s the potential to get much, much worse.   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 02:25:29 am
Maybe you learned math at Trump college.

LOL.  756.u fatality rate now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 14, 2020, 12:11:55 pm
Since last night when I wrote my post, over 140 more people are reported to have died from it in Italy....
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2020, 02:56:17 pm
Jeez, where I live this whole Corona panic seemed not to be a big deal, everyone going normally about their daily business, until yesterday! I went to my local grocery store, which is a relatively small, family run store within walking distance. They were advertising canned sockeye and yogurt heavily on sale and I needed a loaf of bread. I have been going to that store for years and never have I ever seen it so jam packed. There are 4 checkout counters and the lineups to get to them were so long you joined them back at the meat section at the other end of the store. Shopping carts filled to the brim with various things but all well stacked with...yep....toilet paper. Luckily, after I got through with my little bag of stuff there is a bar across the street and I needed a break.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 14, 2020, 03:12:14 pm
The thing is - you do start to worry that there won't be any TP.  I feel it will be fine in a few days.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2020, 03:20:48 pm
The thing is - you do start to worry that there won't be any TP.  I feel it will be fine in a few days.

I guess once everyone has laid in a stock of 2 or 3 months of TP then that rush will end. The general panic though won't be over any time soon it seems but will only grow.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 04:11:12 pm
The thing is - you do start to worry that there won't be any TP.  I feel it will be fine in a few days.

People can wipe their bums with kleenex.

I don't think it will be a huge issue.  We stocked up weeks ago from Costco.  Most food is is made in Canada so that will be fine.  I don't think basic supplies will be an issue.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2020, 04:22:31 pm
People can wipe their bums with kleenex.

I don't think it will be a huge issue.  We stocked up weeks ago from Costco.  Most food is is made in Canada so that will be fine.  I don't think basic supplies will be an issue.

Ah I see, so you're stockpiling boxes of kleenex instead of rolls of toilet paper. A novel idea, but probably not a very smart budget... movement.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 14, 2020, 05:08:46 pm
We have quite a bit on hand but until further notice my local newspapers will not be going into recycling.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2020, 05:20:32 pm
We have quite a bit on hand but until further notice my local newspapers will not be going into recycling.

Good idea, I may do that too. I will be selective though, articles to do with Trump will help ease the pain.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 14, 2020, 05:25:13 pm
Trudeau just limited flights to Canada.  This should have been done a month ago.

My friend just arrived back from vacation at Pearson airport in Toronto.  She said there was no screening except some self-serve kiosk that didn't do jack all.  She said everyone was tense and fearful in the airport.

Travel bans don’t do anything except delay getting it.  They do more harm than good. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid19-travel-bans-1.5495919

Quote
"What the science tells you is that travel bans are not nearly effective as you think they might be," McGeer said. "I think we really need to be focused on what we need to do to protect ourselves from community transmission in our countries as opposed to worrying about what happens when other people coming from other countries to us."

Similarly, when asked whether the Canada-U.S. border might close to limit spread, McGeer said "probably not."

"There's a bit of a temptation to say now that because we have so many fewer cases in Canada than some places in the United States that we might worry about travellers from the United States," she said. "That kind of restriction might delay our outbreak by a week … and the damage that it does is probably just not worth that week's delay."
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 14, 2020, 05:41:07 pm
So far most of those infected have been associated with Canadians who have been travelling abroad and you can't refuse a Canadian citizen entry into their own country.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 07:17:24 pm
Ah I see, so you're stockpiling boxes of kleenex instead of rolls of toilet paper. A novel idea, but probably not a very smart budget... movement.

No I got a bunch of toilet paper a couple of weeks ago.  But if stores run out of TP they can get kleenex.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 07:19:21 pm
Travel bans don’t do anything except delay getting it.  They do more harm than good. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid19-travel-bans-1.5495919

I read that.  How do they know it doesn't work if nothing like this has ever happened before?

The virus can't spread to countries if it doesn't come into the country. But it's too late for that now anyways.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 14, 2020, 07:56:36 pm
I read that.  How do they know it doesn't work if nothing like this has ever happened before?

The virus can't spread to countries if it doesn't come into the country. But it's too late for that now anyways.

That’s stunningly ignorant to think this is the 1st pandemic-level event.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 07:59:50 pm
That’s stunningly ignorant to think this is the 1st pandemic-level event.

I'm saying this is the first event where worldwide travel is being restricted due to a virus.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 08:01:50 pm
As i said, it's too late for these travel bans, the cat is already out of the bag.  But if countries banned travel from China 2 months ago things might be different. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 14, 2020, 08:07:07 pm
I'm saying this is the first event where worldwide travel is being restricted due to a virus.

Nonsense.   Medical experts have certainly studied this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2020, 08:29:54 pm
I'm saying this is the first event where worldwide travel is being restricted due to a virus.

Travel bans range as far back in history as the Black Plague. More recently of course you may recall Ebola, SARS, and there are others.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 10:13:40 pm
Travel bans range as far back in history as the Black Plague. More recently of course you may recall Ebola, SARS, and there are others.

Canada and everywhere else are restricting travel for a reason.  People are cancelling vacations for a reason.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2020, 10:31:53 pm
Canada and everywhere else are restricting travel for a reason.  People are cancelling vacations for a reason.

But you realize your statement that this is the first time this has happened is totally false.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 14, 2020, 10:43:49 pm
But you realize your statement that this is the first time this has happened is totally false.

There's never been a worldwide restriction on travel like this.  Not that I remember.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 14, 2020, 11:10:55 pm
There's never been a worldwide restriction on travel like this.  Not that I remember.

This one is bigger than previous ones for sure. But definitely not the first due to viruses.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 15, 2020, 03:06:43 am
Canada and everywhere else are restricting travel for a reason.  People are cancelling vacations for a reason.

So because it’s happening, that makes the actual experts wrong?   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 15, 2020, 07:10:08 am

The virus can't spread to countries if it doesn't come into the country. But it's too late for that now anyways.

Have you not seen the 'push down the curve' meme ?  The idea is to stop it from spreading quickly and overwhelming health systems.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 15, 2020, 11:50:25 am
(https://i.imgur.com/mVECE7F.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 15, 2020, 11:54:17 am
market rulz - yes?

Germany tries to stop US from luring away firm seeking coronavirus vaccine (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-usa/germany-tries-to-stop-us-from-luring-away-firm-seeking-coronavirus-vaccine-idUSKBN2120IV)

Quote
Germany’s Health Ministry confirmed a report in newspaper Welt am Sonntag, which said President Donald Trump had offered funds to lure the company CureVac to the United States, and the German government was making counter-offers to tempt it to stay.

Contacted by Reuters, a spokeswoman for the German Health Ministry said: “We confirm the report in the Welt am Sonntag.”

Welt am Sonntag quoted an unidentified German government source as saying Trump was trying to secure the scientists’ work exclusively, and would do anything to get a vaccine for the United States, “but only for the United States.”
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 15, 2020, 03:18:24 pm
What a worm, but is anyone surprised. Now the guy who doesn't believe in science is desperate for science to save his ass.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 15, 2020, 03:19:39 pm
market rulz - yes?

Germany tries to stop US from luring away firm seeking coronavirus vaccine (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-usa/germany-tries-to-stop-us-from-luring-away-firm-seeking-coronavirus-vaccine-idUSKBN2120IV)

Germany should just call it a matter of national security and tell him to piss off. That's what he would do if the shoe was on the other foot.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 15, 2020, 03:25:40 pm
Been snow birding in SoCal for the past few months, heading home tomorrow a week early. Guess we'll have to hole up for a couple of weeks when we get back but being geezers we would be laying low anyway.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 15, 2020, 03:32:58 pm
Been snow birding in SoCal for the past few months, heading home tomorrow a week early. Guess we'll have to hole up for a couple of weeks when we get back but being geezers we would be laying low anyway.

SoCal, nice!!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 15, 2020, 03:40:08 pm
SoCal, nice!!

Was nice, the last week has been cool and wet. Usually it is getting hot and dusty. A week ago it was 27 and sunny, today it is 15 and cloudy. Thursday it poured all day.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 15, 2020, 07:51:36 pm
2020 Trump needs to revisit with 2013 Trump... there's a tweet for everything!

so in 2017 the Trump admin shutters the long-standing (multi-administration) NSC Pandemic Office (actually done by long-gone former NSA adviser John Bolton)... but Trump says, "I didn't do it - I don't take responsibility at all!" ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/NUgqY6m.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 15, 2020, 11:09:13 pm
2020 Trump needs to revisit with 2013 Trump... there's a tweet for everything!

so in 2017 the Trump admin shutters the long-standing (multi-administration) NSC Pandemic Office (actually done by long-gone former NSA adviser John Bolton)... but Trump says, "I didn't do it - I don't take responsibility at all!" ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/NUgqY6m.png)

Can you imagine how troubling it could be to be one of the grown ups in the room within Donny's inner circle and have to deal with often multiple daily falsehoods, contradictions, out and out lies? Somebody somewhere might need to take some responsibility.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 16, 2020, 12:07:29 pm
Well, another Monday morning and another major "clunck" in the stock markets. And if that wasn't enough now, the Easter egg hunt on the WH lawn has been cancelled. What's the world coming to? :(
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 16, 2020, 02:39:20 pm
Trump opens his mouth at the current briefing and the dow takes a further `500 point drop. The complete and utter ignorance (let's call it what it is, horseshit) is not helping this issue. He has not a clue what is going on.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 16, 2020, 07:31:24 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/u2vf1FD.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 16, 2020, 08:06:26 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/u2vf1FD.png)


Hmm. Looks like trump is as good at golfing as he is at governing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 08:24:05 pm
In Bakersfield tonight, using cards as wearing gloves at the pumps. Making reservations at RV parks using cards so we we have minimum contact with park personnel. Using our Rv’s facilities for everything, cooking, showers toilet etc. Will steam through Washington with one fuel stop.

Meanwhile, listening to Trudeau today, the borders will be closed to everyone but US residents. We are supposed to self isolate for 14 days when we get back (we will, son asked us to give him a shopping list) but the guy with the Washington plates in front of me at the crossing can come in and do whatever he wants. What the fuck is the logic behind that?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 16, 2020, 08:37:15 pm
In Bakersfield tonight, using cards as wearing gloves at the pumps. Making reservations at RV parks using cards so we we have minimum contact with park personnel. Using our Rv’s facilities for everything, cooking, showers toilet etc. Will steam through Washington with one fuel stop.

Meanwhile, listening to Trudeau today, the borders will be closed to everyone but US residents. We are supposed to self isolate for 14 days when we get back (we will, son asked us to give him a shopping list) but the guy with the Washington plates in front of me at the crossing can come in and do whatever he wants. What the **** is the logic behind that?

Economics.  Can’t ban America or our economy will take a massive hit.  Not to mention a large chunk of our food supply comes from USA.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 08:54:23 pm
Meanwhile, listening to Trudeau today, the borders will be closed to everyone but US residents. We are supposed to self isolate for 14 days when we get back (we will, son asked us to give him a shopping list) but the guy with the Washington plates in front of me at the crossing can come in and do whatever he wants. What the **** is the logic behind that?

Americans are also supposed to self isolate when coming into Canada.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 08:56:16 pm
Americans are also supposed to self isolate when coming into Canada.

Sure they are.  Where the hell do you expect most of them to do that?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 08:58:12 pm
Economics.  Can’t ban America or our economy will take a massive hit.  Not to mention a large chunk of our food supply comes from USA.

You can make exceptions for long distance truckers etc. Theirs is a fairly solitary occupation and relatively low risk anyway.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 09:10:08 pm
Sure they are.  Where the hell do you expect most of them to do that?

I expect that they'll stay home.  The border needs to remain open for trade.  We can't really do much about the border because of marmalade Mussolini.  The only way to get the border closed without US backlash (we need a food supply) is to convince him that it's his idea.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 09:18:14 pm
I expect that they'll stay home.  The border needs to remain open for trade.  We can't really do much about the border because of marmalade Mussolini.  The only way to get the border closed without US backlash (we need a food supply) is to convince him that it's his idea.
Bull. If you don’t have a good reason to be here, you don’t get to cross. The US depends on trade as much as us and Trump is going to have much more on his mind than little old Canada. The US is expected to go down like Italy, time to stop fucking around.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 16, 2020, 09:38:46 pm
Bull. If you don’t have a good reason to be here, you don’t get to cross. The US depends on trade as much as us and Trump is going to have much more on his mind than little old Canada. The US is expected to go down like Italy, time to stop **** around.

Ya i agree  with this.  You can't stop trade, but you can try to stop pleasure travel.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 09:45:10 pm
Ya i agree  with this.  You can't stop trade, but you can try to stop pleasure travel.

Got that right, I live 5K from a border crossing with a state that has over 900 cases and 48 deaths.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 09:45:27 pm
Do we really think a bunch of Americans are on their way up here for pleasure right now? 

Trump doesn't like to be insulted.  He's convinced he's doing a great job.  At this time of year, our food supply needs to come from south.  There are few options.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 09:50:18 pm
https://twitter.com/JamesMoore_org/status/1239630649083842570?s=20
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 09:55:15 pm
Do we really think a bunch of Americans are on their way up here for pleasure right now? 

Trump doesn't like to be insulted.  He's convinced he's doing a great job.  At this time of year, our food supply needs to come from south.  There are few options.

 If they don’t need to be here, turn them around. Why the hell should I have to self isolate when a resident of a state with almost three times as many cases as Canada can enter and do anything they want? Fuck Trump, this is Canada. Do you really think they are going to cut off our food supply? What a wimp you are.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 09:57:49 pm
Do you really think they are going to cut off our food supply?

I think that Trump is unpredictable. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 10:04:32 pm
I think that Trump is unpredictable.
Trump is not King yet and he is no reason to let this country become crushed by a pandemic. Maybe it’s is not a pressing issue in Waterhen but I assure you it is in the rest of the world.

We could also turn off the power and taps and make a good portion of the US cold and dark.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 10:17:04 pm
https://twitter.com/charlesadler/status/1239660335268683776?s=20
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 16, 2020, 10:21:46 pm
Do we really think a bunch of Americans are on their way up here for pleasure right now? 

You are also right in that most people will just choose not to travel to Canada. But what if they don't?  There's enough dumb Americans out there.

We can let in trucks through the border but not a Honda Civic.  This whole travel ban policy is weak a$$ anyways.  The damage is already done.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 10:25:59 pm
You are also right in that most people will just choose not to travel to Canada. But what if they don't?  There's enough dumb Americans out there.

We can let in trucks through the border but not a Honda Civic.  This whole travel ban policy is weak a$$ anyways.  The damage is already done.

The travel ban is useless....as are all travel bans.

It has two purposes.  One is to placate people who think that travel bans aren't useless.  The other, is to streamline the flow of people entering the country, meaning they spend less time waiting for the CBSA to screen them, meaning they have a lower chance of infection in the airport.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 10:27:01 pm
The reality is, there is only one really effective tool, and that's social distancing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 10:32:25 pm
Oh, and hand washing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 10:37:52 pm
https://twitter.com/charlesadler/status/1239660335268683776?s=20

 US food exports to Canada are worth 24B US a year. We are their largest export market. Do you think they would just throw that away out of spite? What a bunch of chickenshits.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 10:51:44 pm
The travel ban is useless....as are all travel bans.

It has two purposes.  One is to placate people who think that travel bans aren't useless.  The other, is to streamline the flow of people entering the country, meaning they spend less time waiting for the CBSA to screen them, meaning they have a lower chance of infection in the airport.

Most visitors from the US arrive at land borders. If Canadians need to self isolate when returning, why are Americans allowed  to enter and roam scott free? Answer that simple question. Are we trying to limit a pandemic or just be PC and not offend Americans while it runs away on us. Our health care system does not have the capacity to cope if it gets away. We will be like Italy where people are dying untreated because the system just doesn’t have the capacity to treat them.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 10:58:26 pm
Outside of China, there have been 319 confirmed cases and 1 death.  Do the math.

Again - the world response has been great at stopping this virus.  For most of us though, it should be treated as a non event.

This was you on Feb 12. I replied that the math was far from done. Who was right and who is still treating this as a none event? Six counties in the SFBay Area just locked down. Over six million people.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 16, 2020, 11:03:36 pm
US food exports to Canada are worth 24B US a year. We are their largest export market. Do you think they would just throw that away out of spite? What a bunch of chickenshits.

You talk like the President is actually a stable genius.  He doesn't care.  It's all about him. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 16, 2020, 11:13:00 pm
You talk like the President is actually a stable genius.  He doesn't care.  It's all about him.
You know something John, Trump was right about us. Spineless.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 16, 2020, 11:42:04 pm
1,800 deaths in Italy from Corona.  That's over half a 9/11.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 16, 2020, 11:56:51 pm
You know something John, Trump was right about us. Spineless.

We're certainly not spineless, but he certainly is stupid.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2020, 12:04:15 am
If Canada closes any part of the border without American agreement, kiss all our exports goodbye. “State of emergency...   America first...  Make America Great Again...”.

And who will Americans rally behind;  the Cmdr in Chief?   Or diseased Canadian exports?   It would take months, if not years to fix the damage Trump would unleash once the virus is done with us. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 17, 2020, 12:08:14 am
https://twitter.com/philippelagasse/status/1239615300225679360?s=21
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on March 17, 2020, 08:32:05 am
Why not to take a plane ...

https://torontolife.com/city/it-feels-post-apocalyptic-what-its-like-to-be-a-flight-attendant-during-coronavirus/

They’re meant to clean the tray tables between every flight, but I haven’t seen that happen. I even heard someone ask if they should clean all the tray tables, and their colleague responded, “No, there’s no time.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 08:47:30 am
If Canada closes any part of the border without American agreement, kiss all our exports goodbye. “State of emergency...   America first...  Make America Great Again...”.

And who will Americans rally behind;  the Cmdr in Chief?   Or diseased Canadian exports?   It would take months, if not years to fix the damage Trump would unleash once the virus is done with us.

Rally around him for what, restricting non essential travel? Give me an effing break. Spineless!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on March 17, 2020, 08:56:26 am
Most visitors from the US arrive at land borders. If Canadians need to self isolate when returning, why are Americans allowed  to enter and roam scott free? Answer that simple question. Are we trying to limit a pandemic or just be PC and not offend Americans while it runs away on us. Our health care system does not have the capacity to cope if it gets away. We will be like Italy where people are dying untreated because the system just doesn’t have the capacity to treat them.

I assume everyone coming in has to self-isolate, and would want to like we all are.
However, there's a lot of daily traffic both ways across the border every day, people working & living on different sides. Not sure how that works.

I have another question:
What about people in Canada on a visitor's visa that is expiring, who are required to do the border hop to renew their visas?
If they've been here for a while are isolating like everyone else, and have no symptoms ... wouldn't they be better to stay put and renew online?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 09:02:40 am
I assume everyone coming in has to self-isolate, and would want to like we all are.
However, there's a lot of daily traffic both ways across the border every day, people working & living on different sides. Not sure how that works.

I have another question:
What about people in Canada on a visitor's visa that is expiring, who are required to do the border hop to renew their visas?
If they've been here for a while are isolating like everyone else, and have no symptoms ... wouldn't they be better to stay put and renew online?

Where are they going to self isolate? Do you think they are coming up here to sit in a bunker for two weeks?

I agree on the visa thing.  In that case it would be sensible to make temporary allowances. Better for them to stay put than be travelling across borders.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 09:34:07 am
Trudeau and BC health minister not on same page when it comes to border restrictions.

https://thetyee.ca/News/2020/03/16/BC-Blasts-Trudeau-Decision-Not-To-Close-US-Border/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 10:32:09 am
If Canada closes any part of the border without American agreement, kiss all our exports goodbye. “State of emergency...   America first...  Make America Great Again...”.

And who will Americans rally behind;  the Cmdr in Chief?   Or diseased Canadian exports?   It would take months, if not years to fix the damage Trump would unleash once the virus is done with us.

What needs to be considered is not only trucks bringing imports/exports, but everyday people drive across the border each day to work in Canada/US.

All trade needs to continue.  The CBSA should turn away people on pleasure trips, hitting up Target etc.  I expect not as many people will do that now but we should still stop it when it does.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 10:36:07 am
A few weeks ago people were slamming Trump for his travel restrictions, now Trudeau is doing similar for international travel but is far too late with it.  People's hatred for Trump is completely unhinged.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 17, 2020, 10:37:33 am
A few weeks ago people were slamming Trump for his travel restrictions, now Trudeau is doing similar for international travel but is far too late with it.  People's hatred for Trump is completely unhinged.

Travel restrictions aren't generally effective.  Trump's travel bans are proof of that.  Social distance and hand wash.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 10:54:55 am
Travel restrictions aren't generally effective.  Trump's travel bans are proof of that.  Social distance and hand wash.

Flatten the curve they say.  If travel restriction aren't effective then why is Canada implementing them? 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 11:44:00 am
A few weeks ago people were slamming Trump for his travel restrictions, now Trudeau is doing similar for international travel but is far too late with it.  People's hatred for Trump is completely unhinged.

A few weeks ago Trump said that Corona was a hoax generated by the Dems,and in any case that it would go away when the weather warmed up. He also said a few days ago the US had it completely under control. Now there are your blatant examples of "truly unhinged"
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 17, 2020, 12:36:30 pm
Flatten the curve they say.  If travel restriction aren't effective then why is Canada implementing them?

Two reasons - people look to the government to do something.  Sometimes, there's very little for government to do.  The border closures give the look of control.  The more pertinent reason though - it streamlines the work of the CBSA, and enhances social distancing at airports.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 17, 2020, 12:46:18 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/H73Wsx7.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 12:56:13 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/H73Wsx7.png)

This idiot couldn't organize a free fuck in a whorehouse and he wouldn't be in business if he hadn't been handed a real estate company from his daddy, which he quickly turned into a "slum lord" operation. Frightening but not surprising that daddy in law would take his advice on such a serious issue as Corona.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2020, 02:50:17 pm
Rally around him for what, restricting non essential travel? Give me an effing break. Spineless!

Trump could shut down the border for food and medical supplies, which we rely ont he USA heavily for.  That would be a disaster. 
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-in-these-dire-times-the-trump-trudeau-border-truce-could-unravel-any/

Quote
James Moore, who served as a cabinet minister in Stephen Harper’s Conservative government, said in an e-mail interview it is reasonable for Ottawa to assume that Mr. Trump would feel humiliated by a border blockade and “could respond by (irrationally) doing the same to Canada as he did with his steel tariffs.” He could “thus cause massive shortages of goods that Canadians need – like fresh food, medical equipment and drugs.”
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 02:59:45 pm
A few weeks ago Trump said that Corona was a hoax generated by the Dems,and in any case that it would go away when the weather warmed up. He also said a few days ago the US had it completely under control. Now there are your blatant examples of "truly unhinged"

I'm very critical of Trump and Trudeau's responses.  But not everything Trump has done has been bad, same with Trudeau. You hate the man, you can't be reasoned with.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 03:39:09 pm
I'm very critical of Trump and Trudeau's responses.  But not everything Trump has done has been bad, same with Trudeau. You hate the man, you can't be reasoned with.

How would you attempt to "reason" with me to convince me I should like a man who brags about "grabbing women by the pussy because I'm a star"? And who lies consistently about important issues, including currently on Corona.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2020, 03:46:32 pm
I'm very critical of Trump and Trudeau's responses.  But not everything Trump has done has been bad, same with Trudeau. You hate the man, you can't be reasoned with.

You’re praising a man who said it was a hoax by the Democrats....   ::)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 17, 2020, 04:13:23 pm
You’re praising a man who said it was a hoax by the Democrats....   ::)

True but unbelievably he changed his tune...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 04:17:11 pm
True but unbelievably he changed his tune...

I'll bet that took a hell of a lot of arm twisting. The folks close to him were probably becoming embarrassed.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 04:22:29 pm
You’re praising a man who said it was a hoax by the Democrats....   ::)

I'm not praising him, I'm saying he isn't the anti-christ.  He's an ignorant douche but he isn't 100% wrong 100% of the time, that's my point.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 04:34:10 pm
I'm not praising him, I'm saying he isn't the anti-christ.  He's an ignorant douche but he isn't 100% wrong 100% of the time, that's my point.

So what percentage of time being 100% wrong would be OK with you? And I'm not talking about wrongs being errors, but "wrongs" being intentional. Here's a list.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/31/politics/fact-check-donald-trump-top-lies-of-2019-daniel-dale/index.html

The "sharpie fiasco" is a real hoot. Well unless you live in Alabama.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 04:44:38 pm
Let's join the Yanks, they control our borders anyway. Why even have CBSA on our southern border, they are just tax collectors.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 04:46:46 pm
BC 2004 one on MLW was right, Canadians are scared shitless of Trump.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 17, 2020, 04:48:08 pm
BC 2004 one on MLF was right, Canadians are scared shitless of Trump.

Being diplomatically smart isn't the same as being afraid.

Anyway, Ottawa is coming to the table with more than $25B tomorrow.  This is probably the largest economic crisis to ever inflict the world in modern times:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-coronavirus-financial-supports-1.5500045
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 04:49:42 pm
Being diplomatically smart isn't the same as being afraid.

Anyway, Ottawa is coming to the table with more than $25B tomorrow.  This is probably the largest economic crisis to ever inflict the world in modern times:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-coronavirus-financial-supports-1.5500045
We are so smart we will let a pandemic over run our country rather than take a chance of offending him. Fucking pathetic bunch of wimps.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 17, 2020, 04:52:08 pm
We are so smart we will let a pandemic over run our country rather than take a chance of offending him. **** pathetic bunch of wimps.

It's about which puts more people in danger.  There is little danger from the tourists who aren't coming here.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 04:54:08 pm
BC 2004 one on MLW was right, Canadians are scared shitless of Trump.

Um, not sure it's very smart to take your lead from such a biased babbler as BC04, but I suppose there is some good reason to be concerned about an elephant such as trump so close to our border.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 04:58:37 pm
Um, not sure it's very smart to take your lead from such a biased babbler as BC04, but I suppose there is some good reason to be concerned about an elephant such as trump so close to our border.

Trudeau said something Donald didn't like and Donald put tariffs on our  (and others) steel and aluminum. Now Donald says "jump" and JT says "how high".
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 05:05:38 pm
Trudeau said something Donald didn't like and Donald put tariffs on our  (and others) steel and aluminum. Now Donald says "jump" and JT says "how high".

Bit of a contradiction going on there. First you criticize JT for somehow hampering trade, but now criticizing him for acting to continue it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 05:06:49 pm
Bit of a contradiction going on there. First you criticize JT for somehow hampering trade, but now criticizing him for acting to continue it.

What?  One thing is clear here, only one country is allowed to control its borders and it isn't us.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 05:11:43 pm
What?  One thing is clear here, only one country is allowed to control its borders and it isn't us.

You don't think Trudeau has the power to lock the gates tomorrow if he felt he needed to? He does and he said this morning he will if his medical advisors tell him it's necessary.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 05:33:33 pm
You don't think Trudeau has the power to lock the gates tomorrow if he felt he needed to? He does and he said this morning he will if his medical advisors tell him it's necessary.

You guys are saying we should be afraid of the big bad orange man and not risk offending him, so the answer is yes, I don't think.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 05:50:56 pm
You guys are saying we should be afraid of the big bad orange man and not risk offending him, so the answer is yes, I don't think.

I'm not saying that at all. It's a balance between trade and risk. Nothing to do with puffy face.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 17, 2020, 05:53:03 pm
You guys are saying we should be afraid of the big bad orange man and not risk offending him, so the answer is yes, I don't think.

Trump didn't shut down trade even after Trudeau was caught on camera making fun of Trump.  Who knows, maybe Trump said something this time to Trudeau, but without knowing for sure, I think it's stupid to risk Canadians out of fear of Trump *maybe* starting a trade war in the middle of a pandemic.

 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 05:54:25 pm
Being diplomatically smart isn't the same as being afraid.

Anyway, Ottawa is coming to the table with more than $25B tomorrow.  This is probably the largest economic crisis to ever inflict the world in modern times:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-coronavirus-financial-supports-1.5500045

Did the PBO factor this into their GDP and deficit assessment?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 17, 2020, 05:56:28 pm
Italians were the first to shut down their borders to China, yet look where they are now.  It's true that travel bans don't work.

However, a bit part of why Italy got where it did is because 10,000 Northern Italians fled to other parts of the country and took the virus with them.  That's the part that scares me about the US border.  With their crap leadership, there are going to be a lot of Americans coming to Canada for a safe haven and making things worse for us. 

As it stands it'll be difficult.  We don't need to take care of Americans fleeing their country as well.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 05:58:48 pm
Trump didn't shut down trade even after Trudeau was caught on camera making fun of Trump.  Who knows, maybe Trump said something this time to Trudeau, but without knowing for sure, I think it's stupid to risk Canadians out of fear of Trump *maybe* starting a trade war in the middle of a pandemic.

 

It's like the reaction of someone who has been abused toward their abuser. Frankly I think it is idiotic and criminal if that is the reason.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 06:00:43 pm
You don't think Trudeau has the power to lock the gates tomorrow if he felt he needed to? He does and he said this morning he will if his medical advisors tell him it's necessary.

Trudeau doesn't see travel as a priority for stopping the illness and never has.  His own wife got sick from travel and he's still soft-stepping around.

They are now telling people who have traveled to self-isolate.  Obviously travel is the major issue.  It's the only way this spread into a new area.  Once it's in an area then crowds and close contact become a problem.  We have done well with the latter, not the former.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 06:02:01 pm
Italians were the first to shut down their borders to China, yet look where they are now.  It's true that travel bans don't work.

However, a bit part of why Italy got where it did is because 10,000 Northern Italians fled to other parts of the country and took the virus with them.  That's the part that scares me about the US border.  With their crap leadership, there are going to be a lot of Americans coming to Canada for a safe haven and making things worse for us. 

As it stands it'll be difficult.  We don't need to take care of Americans fleeing their country as well.

You are an American with no coverage, go to Canada. By the time all the immigration appeals are over, the pandemic will be long gone.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 17, 2020, 06:05:39 pm
It's like the reaction of someone who has been abused toward their abuser. Frankly I think it is idiotic and criminal if that is the reason.

Agreed but at the same time I don't envy Trudeau. 

Protecting people and businesses at the same time.  Shutting borders and being diplomatic at the same time.  This crisis is uncharted territory, I would not want to be PM right now.

Compared to Trump and Boris Johnson, I think we've got it pretty good.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 07:15:01 pm
Agreed but at the same time I don't envy Trudeau. 

Protecting people and businesses at the same time.  Shutting borders and being diplomatic at the same time.  This crisis is uncharted territory, I would not want to be PM right now.

Compared to Trump and Boris Johnson, I think we've got it pretty good.

It isn't an easy situation for sure.  But big emergencies seem to happen every decade or so (9/11, 2008 financial crisis etc), this is what a PM signs up to manage, where they earn their paycheck.  A PM's is always putting out fires whether big or small.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 07:28:31 pm
Agreed but at the same time I don't envy Trudeau. 

Protecting people and businesses at the same time.  Shutting borders and being diplomatic at the same time.  This crisis is uncharted territory, I would not want to be PM right now.

Compared to Trump and Boris Johnson, I think we've got it pretty good.

I don't envy him either but he wanted the job and unfortunately, little bugs don't know or care about sunny ways. Leaders always go in with great plans but fate has a habit of throwing a wrench in them.

EU countries are starting to close their borders to each other and they have economic and political ties greater than ours.

The future will pass judgement on all leaders, we'll have to wait and see how it all turns out.
Regardless how much we dislike some of them, we have to hope they all do a good job with this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 07:42:56 pm
It isn't an easy situation for sure.  But big emergencies seem to happen every decade or so (9/11, 2008 financial crisis etc), this is what a PM signs up to manage, where they earn their paycheck.  A PM's is always putting out fires whether big or small.

You actually think a PM runs so he/she can handle a 9/11 or a virus outbreak? NO, they sign up to handle the day to day business of government activities. Do you think JT said when he ran he hoped a pandemic would occur so he could enjoy trying to put it out? Give your head a shake.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 07:52:13 pm
Hey maybe I'll go get a flying job again to help out with the current situation.

https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/89622967_10219989910690579_8710743711274762240_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=cVjtWR0z6zMAX8ikW_h&_nc_ht=scontent.fyvr3-1.fna&oh=82b5c18708444e1b3f16f52317e2c9ed&oe=5E974036
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 07:52:27 pm
Flu is like 0.1% fatality rate in US.

COVID-19 death rate in USA is 1.8%.  Canada is 1.03%

Italy rate is 8%. Maybe cuz of old population?  Or testing differences too?  Or people have had it longer than people in USA?

Worldwide death rate is now 4% as of today.  https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200317-sitrep-57-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=a26922f2_2
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 07:57:05 pm
Flu is like 0.1% fatality rate in US.

COVID-19 death rate in USA is 1.8%.  Canada is 1.03%

Italy rate is 8%. Maybe cuz of old population?  Or testing differences too?  Or people have had it longer than people in USA?

Worldwide death rate is now 4% as of today.  https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200317-sitrep-57-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=a26922f2_2

Simple, you can't determine the fatality rate until you know the rate of in infection. The reason the US fatality rate is so high is because Trump has been so slow in providing proper testing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 07:57:43 pm
You actually think a PM runs so he/she can handle a 9/11 or a virus outbreak? NO, they sign up to handle the day to day business of government activities. Do you think JT said when he ran he hoped a pandemic would occur so he could enjoy trying to put it out? Give your head a shake.

I said it's part of their job, not what you just put in my mouth.  I don't feel sorry for him because it's his job and he signed up for this.  But it is a tough job.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 08:00:35 pm
Hey maybe I'll go get a flying job again to help out with the current situation.

https://scontent.fyvr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/89622967_10219989910690579_8710743711274762240_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=cVjtWR0z6zMAX8ikW_h&_nc_ht=scontent.fyvr3-1.fna&oh=82b5c18708444e1b3f16f52317e2c9ed&oe=5E974036

Whoa wait, why do you support Nazis, and why are you anti-semitic?  I also disagree with your position that black people are racially inferior to white people, it's sick.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 08:06:07 pm
I said it's part of their job, not what you just put in my mouth.  I don't feel sorry for him because it's his job and he signed up for this.  But it is a tough job.

Your words were "that's what PM's sign up for" referring to 9-11 and such. I didn't put those words in your mouth, I only pointed out how silly they were.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 08:07:40 pm
Whoa wait, why do you support Nazis, and why are you anti-semitic?  I also disagree with your position that black people are racially inferior to white people, it's sick.

Um, have you gone off your meds or something?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2020, 08:09:20 pm
Quote
EU countries are starting to close their borders to each other and they have economic and political ties greater than ours.

Which country  that is closing its border has the economic ties to its neighbour more than Canada has to the US?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 08:18:13 pm
Which country  that is closing its border has the economic ties to its neighbour more than Canada has to the US?

Do you know what the EU even is?

Do you know what the Schengen Area is?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2020, 08:20:26 pm
Do you know what the EU even is?

So which EU country relies on its neighbour more than we do to the USA and which are closing their borders?  You made the claim...   did you just pull it out of your ass?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 17, 2020, 08:21:19 pm
Simple, you can't determine the fatality rate until you know the rate of in infection. The reason the US fatality rate is so high is because Trump has been so slow in providing proper testing.

That's right - we won't know the fatality rate for years.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 08:23:17 pm
Whoa wait, why do you support Nazis, and why are you anti-semitic?  I also disagree with your position that black people are racially inferior to white people, it's sick.

It's obviously a photoshopped pic meant to bring some levity, of a helicopter flying overhead squirting Lysol hand sanitizer down to folks when it's in high demand and they can't find it in stores these days.

So go ahead and tell us now how you have concluded that relates to all the myriad forms of racism you somehow suggest. Wait now, we'll all get the popcorn. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 08:50:23 pm
So which EU country relies on its neighbour more than we do to the USA and which are closing their borders?  You made the claim...   did you just pull it out of your ass?

So you don't know the answer to either of those questions.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2020, 08:52:42 pm
So you don't know the answer to either of those questions.

Troll it is....   ::)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 17, 2020, 09:11:33 pm
This is how it had to be done:

https://twitter.com/JDiamond1/status/1240089296180326400?s=20
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 17, 2020, 09:18:38 pm
So... China got a handle on it and eventually the cases went back down.  It took two months. 

Is that what we're going to have to do ? 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 17, 2020, 09:30:27 pm
This is how it had to be done:

https://twitter.com/JDiamond1/status/1240089296180326400?s=20

Don’t worry...   Wilber will still blame Trudeau for something.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 10:04:12 pm
That's right - we won't know the fatality rate for years.

We'll never know because not everyone who gets it will be tested.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 17, 2020, 10:09:00 pm
We'll never know because not everyone who gets it will be tested.

We'll know much more accurately when the US gets it's act together.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 10:22:54 pm
This is how it had to be done:

https://twitter.com/JDiamond1/status/1240089296180326400?s=20

Glad they did the sensible thing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 10:39:09 pm
Don’t worry...   Wilber will still blame Trudeau for something.

Why would I do that? Except for this, I haven't been critical of Trudeau on this issue.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 17, 2020, 11:14:26 pm
Flu is like 0.1% fatality rate in US.

COVID-19 death rate in USA is 1.8%.  Canada is 1.03%

Italy rate is 8%. Maybe cuz of old population?  Or testing differences too?  Or people have had it longer than people in USA?

U.S. rate relates to Trump not practicing 'social distancing' with the pooch... as in testing was all but non-existent during early stages... now moving forward but still minimal in terms of actual requirements.

(https://i.imgur.com/zWy0Da6.png)

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 11:22:06 pm
Tam said the other day we had tested 25,000, which would put us on par with the UK.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 17, 2020, 11:30:01 pm
Flu is like 0.1% fatality rate in US.

COVID-19 death rate in USA is 1.8%.  Canada is 1.03%

Italy rate is 8%. Maybe cuz of old population?  Or testing differences too?  Or people have had it longer than people in USA?

Worldwide death rate is now 4% as of today.  https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200317-sitrep-57-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=a26922f2_2

Italy is what happens when a health care system is overwhelmed and not everyone can be treated. Doctors have to decide who lives and who dies. We could easily wind up in the same situation. Apparently our system has one of the.lowest numbers of ventilators per capita among developed countries.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 17, 2020, 11:50:45 pm
What's very troubling is that Iran and China could be underreporting the disease cases and deaths, Russia also (explaining why they have so few cases).  That could also explain why Italy death-rates are so high, since they're probably reporting accurately.

If true, it means this disease is more deadly than we think.  Who knows.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 18, 2020, 02:35:03 am
What's very troubling is that Iran and China could be underreporting the disease cases and deaths, Russia also (explaining why they have so few cases).  That could also explain why Italy death-rates are so high, since they're probably reporting accurately.

If true, it means this disease is more deadly than we think.  Who knows.

How come you neglected to mention Trumps under reporting/downplaying the significance of this outbreak?  "All a hoax " as you may recall.  ::)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 18, 2020, 08:30:50 am
What's very troubling is that Iran and China could be underreporting the disease cases and deaths, Russia also (explaining why they have so few cases).  That could also explain why Italy death-rates are so high, since they're probably reporting accurately.

If true, it means this disease is more deadly than we think.  Who knows.

South Korea definitely isn't - their 0.6% for the overall population is probably far closer to reality.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 18, 2020, 08:38:43 am
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/march/16/the-coronavirus-hoax/?fbclid=IwAR1tVTsMsLhFP_SbKgQO8DaYY2eSje6LI7uttscG2xaxHKkoWhuSZkgKjQc

Ron Paul says it's a hoax !  :P
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 18, 2020, 09:35:58 am
What a dufus. Pretty stupid response from an 84 year old.

Going outside is a good idea for your physical and mental health if you can do it where you can keep your distance from other people. We will be going outside, but walking the river dike and trails on the mountain where we see very few people in normal times.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 18, 2020, 09:55:32 am
Ron Paul says it's a hoax !  :P

that apple falling close to tree thingee! Senate coronavirus vote delayed after Rand Paul pushes doomed amendment (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-coronavirus-bill-vote-delayed-after-rand-paul-pushes-doomed-n1162356)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 18, 2020, 09:56:12 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKbwDf51bA
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 18, 2020, 11:01:51 am
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/march/16/the-coronavirus-hoax/?fbclid=IwAR1tVTsMsLhFP_SbKgQO8DaYY2eSje6LI7uttscG2xaxHKkoWhuSZkgKjQc

Ron Paul says it's a hoax !  :P

This is not a small minority of crackpots that think this way down there. 

Hopefully he shakes a lot of hands in the next while...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 18, 2020, 11:53:39 am
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2020/march/16/the-coronavirus-hoax/?fbclid=IwAR1tVTsMsLhFP_SbKgQO8DaYY2eSje6LI7uttscG2xaxHKkoWhuSZkgKjQc

Ron Paul says it's a hoax !  :P

He said that govs are using this panic as an excuse to grab emergency powers.  The Nazis did the same, and Dubya Bush took advantage of 9/11 fear to start a war and increase mass surveillance and limit civil liberties.  And he's saying don't trust governments, and question what they are telling us in case they exaggerate things to scare us.  He didn't say the virus doesn't exist and isn't killing people.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 18, 2020, 12:14:41 pm
He said that govs are using this panic as an excuse to grab emergency powers.  The Nazis did the same, and Dubya Bush took advantage of 9/11 fear to start a war and increase mass surveillance and limit civil liberties.  And he's saying don't trust governments, and question what they are telling us in case they exaggerate things to scare us.  He didn't say the virus doesn't exist and isn't killing people.

Here comes Conspiracy Graham!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 18, 2020, 01:25:24 pm
1. Dubya Bush took advantage of 9/11 fear to start a war and increase mass surveillance and limit civil liberties. 
2. And he's saying don't trust governments, and question what they are telling us in case they exaggerate things to scare us.   
1. To what end ?
2. He scares ME.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 18, 2020, 01:43:31 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifKbwDf51bA

What a crazy flip flop. Could be that's what convinced Trump it's not a hoax. FOX faux shyte usually stinks worse than the horse kind.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 18, 2020, 02:00:23 pm
In authoritarian countries we have the government spreading propaganda through the news.  In democracies we now have private companies spreading propaganda for the government voluntarily, or whatever party they support.  But i suppose that is their right, free speech and all...at least nobody is forcing them by threat of jail.  Still isn't good for the public though.  Journalism is supposed to report the truth, it's becoming more and more like editorials.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 18, 2020, 02:04:27 pm
1. To what end ?
2. He scares ME.

1. Dunno
2. He's retired, at least he doesn't have any power now, so he's not scary.  Trump does.  Imagine postponing the election because of "crowds", for one. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 18, 2020, 02:11:46 pm
In authoritarian countries we have the government spreading propaganda through the news.  In democracies we now have private companies spreading propaganda for the government voluntarily, or whatever party they support.  But i suppose that is their right, free speech and all...at least nobody is forcing them by threat of jail.  Still isn't good for the public though.  Journalism is supposed to report the truth, it's becoming more and more like editorials.

I suggest switching channels, stop listening to faux news.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 18, 2020, 02:25:42 pm
The COVID-19 outbreak has prompted two First Nations on the west coast of Vancouver Island to restrict access to their communities. (https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/west-coast-first-nations-communities-restrict-access-amid-outbreak-1.24100348)

Two nations are taking matters into their own hands and illegally stopping traffic from getting to the west coast.  These aren’t just two first nations’ communities, but two towns with thousands of people in them. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 18, 2020, 03:14:22 pm
Borders shut down and you’re stuck in the States because you were too dumb to leave earlier?

Here’s a helpful hint....   walk across the ditch and go home.

Border (https://goo.gl/maps/MVpyXdZM1hf63LXo6)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 18, 2020, 03:16:59 pm
They're still accepting migrants from US walking over the border.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 18, 2020, 03:17:26 pm
Borders shut down and you’re stuck in the States because you were too dumb to leave earlier?

Here’s a helpful hint....   walk across the ditch and go home.

Border (https://goo.gl/maps/MVpyXdZM1hf63LXo6)

Wash your hands first.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 18, 2020, 03:20:12 pm
They're still accepting migrants from US walking over the border.

What do you suggest?  Shooting them?   Or turn them away to potentially infect people?  Or have them infect Canadians when they sneak across after turning them back? 

Which option do you think puts Canadians/Americans at the least risk?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 18, 2020, 04:34:10 pm
What do you suggest?  Shooting them?   Or turn them away to potentially infect people?  Or have them infect Canadians when they sneak across after turning them back? 

Which option do you think puts Canadians/Americans at the least risk?

This is the #1 complain of the alt-right troll army online.

I ask them: what would you have them do ?  what did Harper do about it ?  Their remarks aren't helpful.  They say to jail them, which isn't legal, and is basically a more expensive option than what we are already doing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 18, 2020, 05:46:42 pm
I found the sudden shift at Fox fascinating. Their talking points were clearly downplaying the virus and using it like they do climate change as a political wedge. It's surprising that they were so willing to start telling the truth.
https://twitter.com/DWUhlfelderLaw/status/1240260244095279105?s=09
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 18, 2020, 05:53:40 pm
I found the sudden shift at Fox fascinating. Their talking points were clearly downplaying the virus and using it like they do climate change as a political wedge. It's surprising that they were so willing to start telling the truth.
https://twitter.com/DWUhlfelderLaw/status/1240260244095279105?s=09

Fear can do that. They finally figured out how serious this is and not a game they can play. Now they are afraid.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 18, 2020, 06:02:16 pm
Trump has now claimed he is a "wartime president" and has therefore enacted the "Defense Production Act". As if corona wasn't scary enough already now the boy who called the outbreak a hoax has now found a way to use it to increase his powers.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 18, 2020, 06:33:11 pm
President for Life, surely... ???
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 18, 2020, 07:22:17 pm
1. Dunno
2. He's retired, at least he doesn't have any power now, so he's not scary.  Trump does.  Imagine postponing the election because of "crowds", for one.

Trump doesn't have the power.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 18, 2020, 07:24:53 pm
They're still accepting migrants from US walking over the border.

Well what would you do?  Canadians don't have the power to turn them away on the US side of the border, or the power to send them back to the US once they're here.  They are arrested, and when they claim asylum, they're doing so from Canadian soil, so it has to be considered.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 18, 2020, 07:27:08 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/3DwQNF7.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 18, 2020, 08:53:44 pm
NYT - The President vs. the Experts: How Trump Downplayed the Coronavirus (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/18/us/trump-coronavirus-statements-timeline.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes)

(https://i.imgur.com/EFvyQyP.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 18, 2020, 09:12:06 pm
Well what would you do?  Canadians don't have the power to turn them away on the US side of the border, or the power to send them back to the US once they're here.  They are arrested, and when they claim asylum, they're doing so from Canadian soil, so it has to be considered.

The peanut gallery ONLY talks about migrants ... once Trudeau is out of power they will shut up.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 18, 2020, 09:44:42 pm
Trump said at one point Corona was a hoax created by Dems. Then he said he knew it was a pandemic weeks ago. Then he said the US had it totally under control. Then he said it was out of control world wide. In any case he also said he gives himself a 10 out of 10 for his handling of the issue. All these statements within days. I at one time thought this was due to a combination of arrogance and ignorance. Now I'm more and more convinced it is actually signs of serious dementia. It could be getting time for the grown ups in Washington to consider the article of the constitution that provides for the movement of office of someone showing signs of incapacitation. 

25th amendment specifically.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 18, 2020, 11:26:53 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7_t2Ri2Zg
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 18, 2020, 11:38:50 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/H73Wsx7.png)

continuing clusterF**K

Kushner coronavirus team sparks confusion, plaudits inside White House response efforts (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiPsJyK2qXoAhVJrJ4KHemEDTEQxfQBMAB6BAgBEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fpolitics%2Fkushner-coronavirus-team-sparks-confusion-plaudits-inside-white-house-response-efforts%2F2020%2F03%2F18%2F02038a16-6874-11ea-9923-57073adce27c_story.html&usg=AOvVaw0U7M-AxnkbWAHgJ2N-ye0q)

Quote
Jared Kushner, President Trump’s son-in-law and a senior adviser, has created his own team of government allies and private industry representatives to work alongside the administration’s official coronavirus task force, adding another layer of confusion and conflicting signals within the White House’s disjointed response to the crisis.

But Kushner’s team is causing confusion among many officials involved in the response, who say they are unsure who is in charge given Kushner’s dual role as senior adviser and Trump family member. Some have privately dubbed his team a “shadow task force” whose requests they interpret as orders they must balance with regular response efforts.

Two senior officials said some government officials have become increasingly confused as they have received emails from private industry employees on Kushner’s team and have been on conference calls with them, unsure what their exact role is in the government response. Several people involved in the response said the involvement of outside advisers — who are emailing large groups of government employees from private email addresses — also raises legitimate security concerns about whether these advisers are following proper government protocols.

“We don’t know who these people are,” one senior official said. “Who is this? We’re all getting these emails.”

Kushner defended his role in an interview, saying his team’s goal was to bring “an entrepreneurial approach” to the crisis.


Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 12:00:46 am
Something I have swirling around my head of late is how we will proceed through and eventually arrive at the end of this issue, and what if any lasting effect it could have. I hark back to wars we have had were we killed each other in huge numbers until we solved the problem (Hitler comes to mind) but then we hastened to rejoin our hands and of course we then welcomed Germans to our shores as they did us. Now we are advised to stay away from our next door neighbor or the man walking his dog along the sidewalk, lest they be infected and pass it to us. I'm hoping that when the vaccine is found and we can get back to normal that we will heartily celebrate being able to be close to each other once again.   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 19, 2020, 10:48:38 am
(https://i.imgur.com/Iu119CP.jpg)

well ya; good job Lou Dobbs! Referring to the virus as the, "Wuhan Virus", isn't quite as forced as calling it the, "Chinese Virus"... and definitely a step-up from the horde of MAGAites regularly calling it the "Kung Flu"
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 19, 2020, 10:52:51 am
US cable news is tabloid trash.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 12:19:25 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Iu119CP.jpg)

well ya; good job Lou Dobbs! Referring to the virus as the, "Wuhan Virus", isn't quite as forced as calling it the, "Chinese Virus"... and definitely a step-up from the horde of MAGAites regularly calling it the "Kung Flu"

Are there another few pages continuing downward that could begin to have some realistic options to click on? Oh, forgot, this if Faux news.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 19, 2020, 12:48:05 pm
They’re packing the beaches in Florida!!   

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-florida-beaches-ignore-social-distancing/#

Funkin’ idiots.  Hopefully any Canadians among them will run into a closed border on the way home.

EDIT:

This just in:     Slow acting Florida government may be closing beaches , bars, etc... 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/florida-governor-says-partys-over-for-spring-breakers-amid-coronavirus-crisis/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 19, 2020, 12:59:56 pm
PM says social distancing could last months (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/morneau-coronavirus-funding-1.5502562)

In my opinion, if the “social distancing” and “self isolation” is needed for more than a few weeks, I don’t think most people will do so.  I think a lot of people are just too stupid in a variety of ways, whether they hate Trudeau and won’t do what the guvmint tells them, they don’t understand how viruses work, they are young and don’t think it’s a problem for them....   

   I think it’s pretty much inevitable that if this has to last months, it will break down and things will get much, much worse.

Or maybe I’m just pessimistic today.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 01:27:30 pm
PM says social distancing could last months (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/morneau-coronavirus-funding-1.5502562)

In my opinion, if the “social distancing” and “self isolation” is needed for more than a few weeks, I don’t think most people will do so.  I think a lot of people are just too stupid in a variety of ways, whether they hate Trudeau and won’t do what the guvmint tells them, they don’t understand how viruses work, they are young and don’t think it’s a problem for them....   

   I think it’s pretty much inevitable that if this has to last months, it will break down and things will get much, much worse.

Or maybe I’m just pessimistic today.

I'm afraid I have to say I share your pessimism today. The views of those funkin' idiots crowding not only Florida's beaches but Georgia's and others as well, and as it is March break time that may well continue. I assume those folks are basing their actions on what they've heard about the virus not likely to kill people in their age group. I guess they just don't understand or care that they may well become carriers and could well end up killing their own parents or grandparents. I myself happened to be in Florida some years ago during that break time and visited the beaches. Essentially what it amounted to was a drunken mob staggering around chasing each other trying to get laid. Some things never change I guess.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 02:10:17 pm
Trump continues to tell lies about how many tests are available, how effective a drug previously used for malaria is working for corona, and Pence follows up by lying about 35 million masks being manufactured to provide to health care workers. I am so glad I am Canadian and don't have these two fucking nitwits in the drivers seats during such a serious time.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 19, 2020, 02:30:43 pm
Trump continues to tell lies about how many tests are available, how effective a drug previously used for malaria is working for corona, and Pence follows up by lying about 35 million masks being manufactured to provide to health care workers. I am so glad I am Canadian and don't have these two **** nitwits in the drivers seats during such a serious time.

Problem is, Canada is relying on the USofA to stop the outbreak...   we are so integrated that if they do stupid things, it will affect us as well.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 03:00:18 pm
Problem is, Canada is relying on the USofA to stop the outbreak...   we are so integrated that if they do stupid things, it will affect us as well.

Let's hope closing the border to non essential travel helps. Truck drivers are likely more sensible/careful than the beach freaks.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 03:12:52 pm
Just heard a news item saying that one of the major take out pizza shops in the US is looking for an extra 10k employees right now. I guess at least some businesses are doing OK just now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 19, 2020, 04:08:46 pm
Let's hope closing the border to non essential travel helps. Truck drivers are likely more sensible/careful than the beach freaks.

It will slow it down, but if their stupidity causes the infection rate to soar, it will certainly bleed across the border.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 04:33:25 pm
It will slow it down, but if their stupidity causes the infection rate to soar, it will certainly bleed across the border.

It seems to be a pretty helter skelter approach.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwji5-_2vafoAhW2GDQIHcmTB_4QFjAAegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.usnews.com%2Fnews%2Fbest-states%2Falabama%2Farticles%2F2020-03-19%2Fcoastal-alabama-town-closes-beaches-over-coronavirus&usg=AOvVaw2f4tNZaQ4Nz0uvwZKQd4AU

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwji5-_2vafoAhW2GDQIHcmTB_4QFjABegQIBhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.usnews.com%2Fnews%2Fbest-states%2Fflorida%2Farticles%2F2020-03-19%2Flegislature-screens-members-as-florida-grapples-with-virus&usg=AOvVaw2qkghOjYN1r5BjpHSqLMKl

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwji5-_2vafoAhW2GDQIHcmTB_4QFjACegQIBBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Fflorida-governor-refuses-shut-down-beaches-amid-spread-coronavirus-n1162226&usg=AOvVaw2Z300XlgvNJp5O8iPxXZHQ
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 19, 2020, 05:23:33 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/iQ760ZP.png) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zatCqqRY_I
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 05:24:35 pm
I suggest if one looks up "Hypocrite" in their dictionary they should find this extreme example.

https://apple.news/AkX2e2KDzQIuCxa58OXHd1A
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 19, 2020, 05:36:49 pm
Well they found something stupid to fight about to distract from the issue at hand at least.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 19, 2020, 05:59:11 pm
in consideration of all those d-bags saying, 'just like the flu'... 'the flu kills more'...... a waldo layperson PSA concerning the 'lung eater':

(https://i.imgur.com/cxHBV1S.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 19, 2020, 06:24:12 pm
Well they found something stupid to fight about to distract from the issue at hand at least.

Let him get away with his minor racist nonsense and lies because there's a "bigger picture" to argue about?   Sure...   I suppose one could do that.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 19, 2020, 06:31:04 pm
PM says social distancing could last months (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/morneau-coronavirus-funding-1.5502562)

In my opinion, if the “social distancing” and “self isolation” is needed for more than a few weeks, I don’t think most people will do so.  I think a lot of people are just too stupid in a variety of ways, whether they hate Trudeau and won’t do what the guvmint tells them, they don’t understand how viruses work, they are young and don’t think it’s a problem for them....   

   I think it’s pretty much inevitable that if this has to last months, it will break down and things will get much, much worse.

Or maybe I’m just pessimistic today.

Thoughts?

I went for a walk with my kids yesterday and even though the city parks are all closed, the playground at my kid's school was pretty busy.  Parents sitting around watching or playing with their kids without a care. 

I don't think enough people are taking this seriously.  Other than going to the grocery store as needed I haven't stepped out anywhere other than walks or bike rides.

On another note, I have no idea how I'm going to handle this if it goes on for very long.  I'm a recluse and not the type to be bothered by not being able to go out, but sitting at home with two kids is so difficult.

Thankful we have a decent backyard and the weather has been nice.  Day one was fun.  Day two was long.  Day three I'm losing it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 19, 2020, 06:36:03 pm
Well they found something stupid to fight about to distract from the issue at hand at least.

It's totally a distraction.  But more importantly, as people start to inevitably die in greater numbers, the anger of the base is directed at the Chinese instead of Trump/Pence.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 19, 2020, 07:51:15 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/7TPKbc4.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 19, 2020, 08:02:00 pm
Well they found something stupid to fight about to distract from the issue at hand at least.

I've seen Trump and the Chinese gov go back and forth.  It's more about that, scoring points by verbally undermining your rival.

Trump recently limited the # of Chinese nationals who could work at Chinese media companies because he accused them of being propaganda outlets for the Chinese government.  Then in response China banned a whole bunch of western journalists from China.  Then Trump criticizes China for the COVID-19 virus, then China accuses the US for covertly "planting" the virus on the Chinese people, then Trump starts calling it "The China Virus".

I don't know the exact timeline of the tit-for-tat about, my point is it's a tit-for-tat thingy.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 19, 2020, 08:31:09 pm
I've seen Trump and the Chinese gov go back and forth.  It's more about that, scoring points by verbally undermining your rival.

Trump recently limited the # of Chinese nationals who could work at Chinese media companies because he accused them of being propaganda outlets for the Chinese government.  Then in response China banned a whole bunch of western journalists from China.  Then Trump criticizes China for the COVID-19 virus, then China accuses the US for covertly "planting" the virus on the Chinese people, then Trump starts calling it "The China Virus".

I don't know the exact timeline of the tit-for-tat about, my point is it's a tit-for-tat thingy.

Someone needs to tell that dumb **** it is an American virus now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 08:35:25 pm
I've seen Trump and the Chinese gov go back and forth.  It's more about that, scoring points by verbally undermining your rival.

Trump recently limited the # of Chinese nationals who could work at Chinese media companies because he accused them of being propaganda outlets for the Chinese government.  Then in response China banned a whole bunch of western journalists from China.  Then Trump criticizes China for the COVID-19 virus, then China accuses the US for covertly "planting" the virus on the Chinese people, then Trump starts calling it "The China Virus".

I don't know the exact timeline of the tit-for-tat about, my point is it's a tit-for-tat thingy.

It's more about the supposed leader of the free world lying his ass off in the midst of an extremely serious issue.
Why do you carry on trying to give the stupid idiot some sort of back door escape route?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 08:42:50 pm
Someone needs to tell that dumb **** it is an American virus now.

He probably prefers the term "Kung Flu". It suits his racist attitude.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 19, 2020, 08:43:54 pm
It's more about the supposed leader of the free world lying his ass off in the midst of an extremely serious issue.
Why do you carry on trying to give the stupid idiot some sort of back door escape route?

I'm not saying he's not an idiot and didn't totally screw up the COVID response.  He is and he did.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 19, 2020, 08:51:41 pm
Sitting in an RV park just south of Portland tonight watching the Global Covid19 town hall on satellite. Interesting that Dr. Henry said they can identify each strain's origin. Most of our new  cases are now from a US strain.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 08:55:04 pm
I have my fingers crossed that the news from China not having any new domestic cases of virus. I know we can't always believe their government but others have said there response to it has been effective. Of course they have more ability to corral/control their population that other countries. I bet there aren't a lot of young folks running around their beaches.

For the first time since the coronavirus outbreak started, China has reported no new domestic transmissions of Covid-19, a major milestone in the country’s fight against the pandemic.

China’s national health commission said on Thursday there were 34 new cases, but all were recent overseas arrivals. In Hubei, the Chinese province where the outbreak began, there were no new cases of any kind during Wednesday. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/19/china-reports-no-domestic-cases-of-coronavirus-for-first-time-since-outbreak-began
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 19, 2020, 09:19:42 pm
Well if you live in California you have to stay at home according to the governor.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 19, 2020, 09:56:29 pm
Well if you live in California you have to stay at home according to the governor.

Argentina, also.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 20, 2020, 12:13:23 am
{per Daily Beast} 4 U.S. Senators RatBastards {Republican}... and counting!

after receiving private late January/early February briefings on the COVID-19 virus (with at least one of the meetings classified), through public filings, 4 U.S. Senators have been revealed to have sold significant stock holdings:

- Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Richard Burr (R-NC) => sold between $582,029 and $1.56 million of stock holdings on Feb. 13 in 29 separate transactions

- Senate Health Committee, Senator Kelly Loeffler (R-GA) => between January 24 and February 14, Loeffler reported selling stock jointly owned with her husband worth between $1,275,000 and $3,100,000. The fifteen stocks that Loeffler reported selling have lost more than a third of their value, on average, since their sale date

- Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, Senator Ron Johnson (R-WI) => at least $5 million in stock sold

- Armed Services Committee, Oklahoma Senator Jim Inhofe (R-OK) => up to $450,000 in stock sold
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 20, 2020, 12:41:30 am
in consideration of all those d-bags saying, 'just like the flu'... 'the flu kills more'...... a waldo layperson PSA concerning the 'lung eater':

(https://i.imgur.com/cxHBV1S.png)


no biggee waldo, no biggee! How the Coronavirus Could Take Over Your Body (Before You Ever Feel It) (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/the-story-of-a-coronavirus-infection.html)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 20, 2020, 06:19:16 am
I have my fingers crossed that the news from China not having any new domestic cases of virus. I know we can't always believe their government but others have said there response to it has been effective. Of course they have more ability to corral/control their population that other countries. I bet there aren't a lot of young folks running around their beaches.

For the first time since the coronavirus outbreak started, China has reported no new domestic transmissions of Covid-19, a major milestone in the country’s fight against the pandemic.

Ok, but someone who is semi-knowledgable also indicated to me that their extreme version of lockdown won't be achieved in our society.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 20, 2020, 08:58:14 am
(https://i.imgur.com/yM5ZoMM.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 20, 2020, 01:17:11 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/yM5ZoMM.png)

If we can coax Donny to get into a rocket ship I'll be ready to light the fuse.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 20, 2020, 05:48:06 pm
The numbers of infections and deaths keep growing and Trump keeps stumbling around like a bull in a China shop as he continues to lie his ass off as to what is happening, and the severity of the advance of this outbreak. The millions of protective masks he suggests are available, aren't. And I'm not quite sure I trust his selection of a medical expert either, Dr. Deborah Birx, as she seems to be trying to paint a rosy picture of a very serious situation simply to please Donny. Various state governors have taken the bull by the horns and ordered lock downs to keep people home whenever possible. Closing the Canada/US border is probably a good idea at the moment, as much as it will hurt the economy. The one bit of good news I hear is that China has claimed no new community spread cases for the last two days. Let's hope they are telling the truth, unlike Trump.   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 20, 2020, 06:29:18 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/gGKa7Ze.png)

Total COVID-19 tests performed per million people - Most recent data as of 20 March 2020 - 18.00GMT:

- Canada: 3,389

- United States: 313
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 20, 2020, 06:51:25 pm
It's horrible.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 20, 2020, 07:59:35 pm
I was just over at my local shopping mall grocery store for a quick shop. Toilet paper they had, bread not so much. The normal crowd #'s for this time of day were way lower. A thought came to mind about what it would be like if I was sitting up in the International Space Station hearing al this news looking down at the planet. I think I'd volunteer for another hitch.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 20, 2020, 09:03:55 pm
https://i.imgur.com/qOOzR5X.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 20, 2020, 09:38:47 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/yM5ZoMM.png)

I shared this on Facebook and got like 400 likes.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 20, 2020, 09:54:45 pm
More like "Disgrace Farce".
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 21, 2020, 09:04:42 am
(https://i.imgur.com/yM5ZoMM.png)

My share of this got 535 likes and 35 shares.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 21, 2020, 10:37:10 am
Sorry... over 200 shares, as well as 152 shares from the original 35 I had listed.

So, Waldo, wherever you got this meme from... sharing it here has resulted in THOUSANDS of views...  :o
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 21, 2020, 01:18:04 pm
in these end times, reach for additional waldo PSAs!

(https://i.imgur.com/tPMVgaK.png)




Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 21, 2020, 01:52:38 pm
Just listened to the latest White House press briefing on the issue. Another typical load of (dangerous) horse puckey from Trump and Pence. I feel sorry for Dr. Faucci who has to step up and then set the story straight. There is no vaccine anywhere near close to being ready as Trump would have us believe. But there probably knuckledragger Trump followers who will run out and get a bit of chloroquine  and think they've got 'er beat, and then eventually infect everyone at their job site.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 21, 2020, 04:02:47 pm
Sobering article By a previous director of the CDC on CNN

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/health/coronavirus-response-must-adapt-frieden-analysis/index.html
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 21, 2020, 04:23:42 pm
The Doctor Who Helped Defeat Smallpox Explains What's Coming

https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-interview-larry-brilliant-smallpox-epidemiologist/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 21, 2020, 07:03:16 pm
We need this again now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M7c-JOnPdw&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 21, 2020, 10:07:57 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/qKxOExb.png)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfPk1HIBLfM
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 21, 2020, 10:16:46 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/qKxOExb.png)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfPk1HIBLfM

Could you take this and try to shove it up the assholes of the usual stupid suspects on MLW. I'd like to read BC's reaction for starters. Taxme will be a real hoot.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 22, 2020, 01:51:10 pm
Where Are the Tests? {The Bulwark}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlU473QiD8A

but hey now, the U.S. Senator who blocked Covid-19 funding... somehow... he managed to get a test even without showing any symptoms - go figure!

Sen. Rand Paul has tested positive for coronavirus (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/22/politics/rand-paul-coronavirus/index.html)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 22, 2020, 02:11:10 pm
I'd just like to say that I apologize for ever making light of this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 22, 2020, 02:13:36 pm
Where Are the Tests? {The Bulwark}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlU473QiD8A

but hey now, the U.S. Senator who blocked Covid-19 funding... somehow... he managed to get a test even without showing any symptoms - go figure!

Sen. Rand Paul has tested positive for coronavirus (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/22/politics/rand-paul-coronavirus/index.html)

He was apparently doing a little excersizing in the senate gym this am, while ALL other gyms in the city are closed. Stupid is as stupid does.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 22, 2020, 02:32:30 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/6QdGGqr.png)

a tad sobering stat: the % breakout of 'CLOSED CASES' (recovered versus death)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 22, 2020, 02:48:15 pm
I'd just like to say that I apologize for ever making light of this.

Hey I didn't think it would go even close to this level either.  I was wrong too.  Few were predicting anything like this, especially the societal shutdown.  It's still a bit overblown but it's clearly more serious than bird flu and even SARS (based on total fatalities).
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 22, 2020, 03:10:19 pm
This is not a small minority of crackpots that think this way down there. 

Hopefully he shakes a lot of hands in the next while...


https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/488892-rand-paul-becomes-first-senator-to-test-positive-for-coronavirus

This virus has a sense of justice....   now if only he’s been holding hands and praying with the old man....   

How out of touch and stupid are these senators...   MIT Romney is “seeking advice” on whether other senators need to self isolate...   he had lunch with him 2 days ago....   

LOL

No senator...  you too should hold hands and pray with him that the virus goes away!  I hope the Democrats aren’t this dumb...   but maybe they are.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 22, 2020, 03:12:01 pm
Hey I didn't think it would go even close to this level either.  I was wrong too.  Few were predicting anything like this, especially the societal shutdown.  It's still a bit overblown but it's clearly more serious than bird flu and even SARS (based on total fatalities).

Covidiot-Graham - Please tell us how it’s “overblown”.

FYI - 793 people died yesterday in Italy from this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 22, 2020, 04:10:30 pm
Hey I didn't think it would go even close to this level either.  I was wrong too.  Few were predicting anything like this, especially the societal shutdown.  It's still a bit overblown but it's clearly more serious than bird flu and even SARS (based on total fatalities).

How many people have to become infected or die before it's not really "a bit overblown"? Or are you taking your lead from Donny Trump?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 22, 2020, 04:21:04 pm
Covidiot-Graham - Please tell us how it’s “overblown”.

FYI - 793 people died yesterday in Italy from this.

I stand corrected.  Canada's fatality rate is now 5.3%.  Before the weekend is was 1%
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 22, 2020, 04:36:37 pm
Covidiot-Graham - Please tell us how it’s “overblown”.

FYI - 793 people died yesterday in Italy from this.

Also don't call me an idiot.  It's rude.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 22, 2020, 06:15:02 pm
I just was listening to the latest Trump press conference on the Covid thing. Aside from questions answered by medical pro's, the rest was just another load of  complete gobbledygook. Anybody take away any valuable info from Trump/Pence? I certainly missed it if it was there.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 22, 2020, 07:37:21 pm
Also don't call me an idiot.  It's rude.

Don’t say idiotic things....  It took you all of 1 and a half hours to change your tune about it being “overblown”.   What did you learn in that hour and a half and why were you so ignorant about it earlier in the day?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 22, 2020, 07:50:56 pm
Don’t say idiotic things....  It took you all of 1 and a half hours to change your tune about it being “overblown”.

If you want to be a stubborn a-hole and insult me, then I'll start insulting you back.  And i'm a lot better at insults than you penis-breath.

Quote
What did you learn in that hour and a half and why were you so ignorant about it earlier in the day?

I could bother telling you, but you don't engage in discussion, and like all true dumb idiots, you'd rather lazily go around marking tags as "dumb" and calling people idiots, so why bother.

In fact, most people who post here are whiny hateful cucks still sucking on their mothers bosoms, or have their noses so firmly up Trudeau's butox they're incapable of daring going against  The Party doctrine and therefore honest debate is impossible  This place is simply a waste of my good time, time for another vacation.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 22, 2020, 08:43:03 pm
squid and graham - please keep it in your pants

There are those of us who seriously need to come on here to get important information so that we can be depressed.  Thank you. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 22, 2020, 09:02:00 pm
I don't understand the hatred for cucks. They seem very sharing. But I would agree it's idiotic to call the response overblown at this point. It's clearly not.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 22, 2020, 10:04:51 pm

If you want to be a stubborn a-hole and insult me, then I'll start insulting you back.  And i'm a lot better at insults than you ****-breath.

I actually believe you can string together a bunch of immature insults together better than I can...  I will concede that honour to you.  But maybe set your goals a bit higher than being a covidiot troll.... 

Quote

In fact, most people who post here are whiny hateful cucks still sucking on their mothers bosoms, or have their noses so firmly up Trudeau's butox they're incapable of daring going against  The Party doctrine and therefore honest debate is impossible  This place is simply a waste of my good time, time for another vacation.

Wow...   Covid-19 a partisan issue...   and people who think the government response is reasonable is only because we are up Trudeau's butox [sic]?    Now there's a reasoned argument...      ::)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 22, 2020, 10:55:48 pm
I logged in today as I often do to take a look at the current weather cam pictures at my old stomping grounds where I learned to fly just north of Toronto. I was surprised to see a number of planes parked there today you would normally never see there. I speak of 737's most of which with AirCanda logos on the tail. I can onlu assume they are looking for places to park aircraft not needed for now as air travel slows as people stay home if they can.
I must say I'm kinda glad not to be seating in the seat these days especially on those 17 hour runs from SFO to Dubai.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 22, 2020, 11:06:45 pm
I stand corrected.  Canada's fatality rate is now 5.3%.  Before the weekend is was 1%

Canada's fatality rate as of the last reported numbers is slightly less than 1.4%.  It's the virulence that makes this so scary.  The rate only goes up when it overwhelms health systems, as we see in Italy, Spain, and Iran, and as we're about to see in the US.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on March 22, 2020, 11:11:25 pm

but hey now, the U.S. Senator who blocked Covid-19 funding... somehow... he managed to get a test even without showing any symptoms - go figure!

Sen. Rand Paul has tested positive for coronavirus (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/22/politics/rand-paul-coronavirus/index.html)

I wonder if his dad still thinks it's a hoax.

I wonder if Rand can use the power of Rugged Individualism to fend off the disease.

I wonder if the libertarian senator will take a libertarian approach to his disease by himself up by the bootstraps and discovering his own cure.

I wonder if he has any regrets over his shenanigans last week of trying to attach a bunch of inane amendments to the US coronavirus aid bill.

I hope that he recovers and lives a long life, so that people can remind him for decades to come what a fucking idiot he is.

Fuck that guy.  That's what you get for taking your dad's medical advice, chump.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 22, 2020, 11:16:12 pm
Canada's fatality rate as of the last reported numbers is slightly less than 1.4%.  It's the virulence that makes this so scary.  The rate only goes up when it overwhelms health systems, as we see in Italy, Spain, and Iran, and as we're about to see in the US.

Oh, and France - we're about to see it in France, too.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 23, 2020, 08:00:59 am
I'd just like to say that I apologize for ever making light of this.
I've got a lot of respect for you admitting that you were mistaken. Most people won't ever do this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 23, 2020, 08:03:01 am
I stand corrected.  Canada's fatality rate is now 5.3%.  Before the weekend is was 1%
I'm not trying to minimize the seriousness of COVID-19, but the mortality rates are inaccurate. They're only testing the most severe cases. Some people contract the virus on don't show symptoms. Some people with symptoms who are not having severe difficulty breathing are not even tested, so not included in official statistics. So be careful about interpreting these high mortality rates as generalizable to the broader public. They're not. This is the mortality rate amongst those with serious enough symptoms to be approved for testing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 23, 2020, 08:05:06 am
Canada's fatality rate as of the last reported numbers is slightly less than 1.4%.  It's the virulence that makes this so scary.  The rate only goes up when it overwhelms health systems, as we see in Italy, Spain, and Iran, and as we're about to see in the US.
This is the trouble exactly. If we don't isolate and everyone gets sick at once, there's no healthcare system in the world that can handle being slammed that way. There are not enough ventilators to keep everyone alive. The reason we are isolating while healthy is to extend the amount of time it takes for the virus to reach everyone. These lockdowns are going to last a lot longer than a couple weeks. I suspect we're going to be in some state of heightened vigilance (not necessarily full blown lockdown) until the Fall at the earliest.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 23, 2020, 09:01:56 am
In Spain they've now stopped helping people over 65.  In Italy, it's 60.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 23, 2020, 09:10:11 am
In Spain they've now stopped helping people over 65.  In Italy, it's 60.
I thought I read that it was 80 in Italy?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 23, 2020, 09:10:55 am
Triage is reversed in crisis. Typically when you go to the ER, they help the most urgent and severe cases first. When the system is overloaded and they're running out of resources, they treat the ones most likely to recover first and consider the most severe cases lost causes.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 23, 2020, 09:30:02 am
I thought I read that it was 80 in Italy?

It changed:

https://www.jpost.com/International/Israeli-doctor-in-Italy-We-no-longer-help-those-over-60-621856
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 23, 2020, 12:42:49 pm
Anyone on the west coast wondering about travel on a BC ferry I now see that if you are in your car you can self isolate by staying in your car even on the lower decks. They also report that currently with reduced travel and people staying in their cars that if you are a foot passenger you have no trouble finding your own corner for the trip.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on March 23, 2020, 01:02:08 pm
They're not. This is the mortality rate amongst those with serious enough symptoms to be approved for testing.
The mortality rate spikes when they run out of respirators. If you can flatten the curve enough so that everyone who needs a respirator can get one, the mortality rate would be very low.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 23, 2020, 01:15:44 pm
The mortality rate spikes when they run out of respirators. If you can flatten the curve enough so that everyone who needs a respirator can get one, the mortality rate would be very low.

Yes, the problem is the advanced medical care so many people need when they get this virus compared to the flu. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 23, 2020, 01:42:23 pm
Coming out of this health crisis would be a great time to re-evaluate how we spend research dollars.  I think capitalism has gone too far with medical research.  So much money is wasted by the public, and by companies on absurd things like beauty products, non-essential cures for things that aren’t really a problem, etc.   Billions of dollars that should go into real medical research and real medical planning.  Having enough medical supplies for medical emergencies.   Or, tax the crap out of these things and put the money into funding real research.

Will we?

I doubt the 2 main parties are willing to take on capitalism.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 23, 2020, 02:24:23 pm
The UK, Switzerland, and the Netherlands are about to join the ranks of overwhelmed countries.  How Germany and Norway haven't is baffling with their case load.  May the God I don't believe in watch over us all.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 23, 2020, 05:21:35 pm
Donald Trump speaking at the WH again and again, as usual, spewing complete and utter bullSHIT with regard to this crisis. Please donny, get covid-19 and please fucking die asap.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 23, 2020, 05:29:27 pm
Donald Trump speaking at the WH again and again, as usual, spewing complete and utter bullSHIT with regard to this crisis. Please donny, get covid-19 and please **** die asap.

Why don’t you just leave this in the Trump thread? 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 23, 2020, 05:31:56 pm
Why don’t you just leave this in the Trump thread?

Because it's pertinent to both threads and I'll leave were I damn well want.

Surely you're not stupid enough to be a trump supporter?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 23, 2020, 07:27:16 pm
K, now I feel like Squid may not like me doing this, but since I don't derail every thread to make it about Trump (looking at you Omni), I'll go ahead...

Trump is threatening to go back on social distancing measures because it's hurting the economy.  If he does, the world is f-cked, and we are especially since we share a border with them.

I wouldn't put it past him obviously.  Other than the virus itself, this is the scariest thing I've heard yet about the situation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1241935285916782593
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 23, 2020, 07:35:33 pm
This is exactly the kind of thing people were worried about with him in the White House.  His supporters would eat it up too.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 23, 2020, 07:39:32 pm
Totally.  I'm hoping he's just threatening the Democrats to pass his slush fund stimulus package, but yeah, I could see him going through with it. 

Then again, Boris Johnson tried it too and quickly realized it's not a good look.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 23, 2020, 08:08:28 pm
Totally.  I'm hoping he's just threatening the Democrats to pass his slush fund stimulus package, but yeah, I could see him going through with it. 

Then again, Boris Johnson tried it too and quickly realized it's not a good look.

But Boris may be responsible for the deaths of many people While his stance was “evolving”...

Quote
3 March (release of coronavirus action plan)
“I’m shaking hands continuously. I was at a hospital the other night where I think there were actually a few coronavirus patients and I shook hands with everybody, you’ll be pleased to know. I continue to shake hands.

“We already have a fantastic NHS, fantastic testing systems and fantastic surveillance of the spread of the disease … I want to stress that for the vast majority of the people of this country, we should be going about our business as usual.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/how-coronavirus-advice-from-boris-johnson-has-changed

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 23, 2020, 08:22:39 pm
That was my point too. 

Initially Johnson put economy over lives as well but when lots of people started to die, he realized the gravity of it.  He now has ordered a lockdown. 

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on March 23, 2020, 09:45:07 pm
But Boris may be responsible for the deaths of many people While his stance was “evolving”...
 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/how-coronavirus-advice-from-boris-johnson-has-changed

"and fantastic surveillance of the spread of the disease "

Boris made it sound like a spectator sport.



Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 23, 2020, 11:10:55 pm
K, now I feel like Squid may not like me doing this, but since I don't derail every thread to make it about Trump (looking at you Omni), I'll go ahead...

Trump is threatening to go back on social distancing measures because it's hurting the economy.  If he does, the world is f-cked, and we are especially since we share a border with them.

I wouldn't put it past him obviously.  Other than the virus itself, this is the scariest thing I've heard yet about the situation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1241935285916782593

Yes perhaps I do focus too much on Trump. After all what damage could he possibly do?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2020, 11:19:28 pm
Trump is threatening to go back on social distancing measures because it's hurting the economy.  If he does, the world is f-cked, and we are especially since we share a border with them.

I wouldn't put it past him obviously.  Other than the virus itself, this is the scariest thing I've heard yet about the situation.
This is exactly the kind of thing people were worried about with him in the White House.  His supporters would eat it up too.

MAGAites, TrumpToadies, right-wing media schlocks, alt-right wingnuts, claimed libertarian twits, etc., ... have all been pushing this idiocy the last few days. This swill extract (below left) from 'The Federalist' even couches it in terms of lost FREEDOM!

and cancer deaths seems to be the comparative go-to... that even if U.S. COVID-19 death numbers hit half... just half... the 2019 ~600,000 cancer deaths... no biggee! You don't shut down your freakin' economy and close-up your country for that!

(https://i.imgur.com/zBu9kZ0.png)(https://i.imgur.com/xpqxrie.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2020, 11:25:08 pm
I logged in today as I often do to take a look at the current weather cam pictures at my old stomping grounds where I learned to fly just north of Toronto. I was surprised to see a number of planes parked there today you would normally never see there. I speak of 737's most of which with AirCanda logos on the tail. I can onlu assume they are looking for places to park aircraft not needed for now as air travel slows as people stay home if they can.

I must say I'm kinda glad not to be seating in the seat these days especially on those 17 hour runs from SFO to Dubai.

to the boneyard! (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-airlines-sending-wide-bodies-to-the-desert-for-storage-2020-3)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 12:20:39 am
to the boneyard! (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-airlines-sending-wide-bodies-to-the-desert-for-storage-2020-3)

And of course a lot of airline people and downstream lay offs.
I have never been one for praying but perhaps I'll say a word or two tonight for what it's worth. Just in case.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 11:06:21 am
He said that govs are using this panic as an excuse to grab emergency powers.  The Nazis did the same, and Dubya Bush took advantage of 9/11 fear to start a war and increase mass surveillance and limit civil liberties.  And he's saying don't trust governments, and question what they are telling us in case they exaggerate things to scare us.  He didn't say the virus doesn't exist and isn't killing people.

I returned to show that I, and Ron Paul, were right.  The Liberal government just tried to push for emergency powers to grant them vast new powers to tax and spend until December 2021 without Parliament approval.  Their attempt failed.  Nice try though.  Sounds like something Harper would try to do.  I guess people in power always want more power.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 24, 2020, 11:10:50 am
no death panels - trust me! Doctors will protectively & lovingly shift the sparse supply of ventilators toward the youngins
(https://i.imgur.com/elZPZv3.png)https://i.imgur.com/FtgZJiL.mp4(https://i.imgur.com/HNe2TmD.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 11:22:43 am
I returned to show that I, and Ron Paul, were right.  The Liberal government just tried to push for emergency powers to grant them vast new powers to tax and spend until December 2021 without Parliament approval.  Their attempt failed.  Nice try though.  Sounds like something Harper would try to do.  I guess people in power always want more power.

Even this 'quick' bill during this crisis will have taken 8 days.  That's too long.  This is a war.  It should be treated like one.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 11:39:58 am
Now the Conservatives are playing political games with the aid package:

https://twitter.com/ScottReidCPC/status/1242475959506341889?s=20
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 11:44:04 am
Even this 'quick' bill during this crisis will have taken 8 days.  That's too long.  This is a war.  It should be treated like one.

It's not a war, it's a health and economic emergency.  Yes let's call it a "war" too so they can invoke the War Measures Act and grab more emergency powers.  If you want emergency tax and spend powers, ask for it at months at a time, not for 2 years.  If it were for 3 months I might be ok with that, they could easily always ask for extensions.  It's a power grab.  But as a Liberal mouthpiece I would expect you to defend it.  This is a government that snuck in the DPA law into a budget bill.  They can't be trusted, nor can any political party, which is why we have a Parliament in the first place.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 24, 2020, 11:53:59 am
I give the Liberals the benefit of the doubt, reluctantly, but that doesn't excuse this as a bad mistake.

We need unity from the 3 main parties now, and this doesn't help.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 11:54:27 am
ConspiracyGraham is back!!

These emergency powers seem reasonable, given the circumstances.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 11:55:55 am
Now the Conservatives are playing political games with the aid package:

https://twitter.com/ScottReidCPC/status/1242475959506341889?s=20

What games?  Defending our democracy from a government that wants sweeping new powers to bypass Parliament?  The Liberal government wants to ban MP's from the House of Commons because of COVID-19.  If there's anyone who should be able to go to work, it's our elected representatives in order to vote on legislation. If they shouldn't be gathering they can still hold votes and debates in other ways.

Turn this around and pretend Harper was doing this.  What would be your reaction.  You wouldn't call it "games".  Your thinking has become very dangerous.

I'm so glad our government is a minority right now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 24, 2020, 11:58:01 am
ConspiracyGraham is back!!

These emergency powers seem reasonable, given the circumstances.

Maybe they should have worked this out first rather than trying to fast it past the opposition parties.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 11:58:26 am
I give the Liberals the benefit of the doubt, reluctantly,....

That's what they're counting on.

Quote
We need unity from the 3 main parties now, and this doesn't help.

That's what they're counting on.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 12:03:41 pm
Now the Conservatives are playing political games with the aid package:

https://twitter.com/ScottReidCPC/status/1242475959506341889?s=20

Scott Reid sounds like a bloody crackpot!   It’s not the Libs telling him to stay away, it’s his own party whip, under the direction of health professionals.   Either the man is a complete dolt, or he’s a conspiratard who thinks the virus is “overblown”.   Maybe he’ll come around in the next hour and a half and stop being a Covidiot, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 12:31:55 pm
Maybe they should have worked this out first rather than trying to fast it past the opposition parties.

Maybe they did and the CPC pooped their pants and held things up.  If the CPC are holding up things that would help to alleviate this health crisis, deaths will be on their “democratic principles”.   Sometimes you have to break a window (ILLEGAL) to save a life (end goal).   If the gov’t has to break a few windows to save lives, and repair the windows afterwards, I have no problems with this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 24, 2020, 01:11:59 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/H1KTsJj.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 01:18:26 pm
Basically suspending parliament for almost two years is ridiculous. I can't believe Trudeau had the gaul to ask for it. That isn't wanting co-operation, it's wanting supreme power for the life of this parliament. Right now it is in the opposition's best interest to be co-operative but don't insult them and the voting public.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 01:36:57 pm
Maybe they should have worked this out first rather than trying to fast it past the opposition parties.

They were trying to - that's why they gave it to them the night before.  Instead of negotiating, they released it to the media.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 01:37:59 pm
It's not a war,

You're right - it's moving far faster.  Deaths have to be shown on a logarithmic scale.  In Italy, there's an over 10% mortality rate now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 01:39:35 pm
Basically suspending parliament for almost two years is ridiculous. I can't believe Trudeau had the gaul to ask for it. voting public.

No one asked for that.  The government can be defeated with a motion at any time, as happened in 2006.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 01:50:41 pm
I see Trump cancelled his daily briefing today and instead went over to see his li'l buddies at Fox knowing they'll happily accept his BS. He goes on to say he thinks all will be right again by Easter, which is just under 3 weeks away. I suspect his followers are in for a big disappointment He'll try to blame the Dems. of course.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 03:07:34 pm
No one asked for that.  The government can be defeated with a motion at any time, as happened in 2006.

This isn't 2006, in case you hadn't noticed. The last thing we need is an election while this is going on and it could be going on for some time. How could you even hold an election in the middle of a pandemic?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 24, 2020, 03:13:48 pm
They were trying to - that's why they gave it to them the night before.  Instead of negotiating, they released it to the media.

This was NOT in the CBC radio report I heard today.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 03:46:12 pm
I still don’t think people quite grasp the severity of the situation, including many people on this forum....

Quote
Patty Hajdu, the federal health minister, said COVID-19 could infect between 30 and 70 per cent of Canada’s population. That would mean somewhere between 11. 3 million and 26.3 million people in Canada could get sick, with varying severity.
https://nationalpost.com/news/may-soon-be-completely-out-of-control-covid-19s-dire-possibilities-could-dramatically-change-canada

11.3 MILLION @ 2% mortality = 226,000 Canadians dead.

Go ahead and scale it to what you think the actual mortality rate is and how many people you think will get the virus....   the number is still astronomical.   And the CPC wants to debate the finer points of democracy.  Stupid f’kn idiots.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 24, 2020, 04:04:35 pm
Oh but it's just old people dying, who cares! 

I've gone from scared to shock and sadness that so many people are flippant about the lives of the elderly and the immuno-compromised.  Not shockingly, they're the lean-right 'me me me' types.   :'(

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 04:08:57 pm
Oh but it's just old people dying, who cares! 

I've gone from scared to shock and sadness that so many people are flippant about the lives of the elderly and the immuno-compromised.  Not shockingly, they're the lean-right 'me me me' types.   :'(

Those are the ones who frequent forums and spread misinformation or deny there’s a problem....   but in real life there are plenty of idiots out there from every spectrum.  They’re just bloody clueless. 

Speaking of which...  stay off Twitter.  It is a cesspool of idiots and trolls.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 04:09:23 pm
Oh but it's just old people dying, who cares! 

I've gone from scared to shock and sadness that so many people are flippant about the lives of the elderly and the immuno-compromised.  Not shockingly, they're the lean-right 'me me me' types.   :'(

More bad news:

An individual under the age of 18 has died of the novel coronavirus, marking the first known child death from the virus in the United States, Los Angeles County officials confirmed on Tuesday. “[It is] a devastating reminder that COVID-19 infects people of all ages,” said Barbara Ferrer, L.A. County’s Public Health director

https://www.thedailybeast.com/first-child-under-18-dies-of-coronavirus-in-los-angeles-county
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 04:26:24 pm
Go ahead and scale it to what you think the actual mortality rate is and how many people you think will get the virus....   the number is still astronomical.   And the CPC wants to debate the finer points of democracy.  Stupid f’kn idiots.

Finer points of democracy?  No, they just don't want to give the Liberals a blank cheque and absolute power for the next 2 years.  The Liberals wouldn't give it to the CPC either, nor should they.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 04:33:36 pm
I still don’t think people quite grasp the severity of the situation, including many people on this forum....
https://nationalpost.com/news/may-soon-be-completely-out-of-control-covid-19s-dire-possibilities-could-dramatically-change-canada

11.3 MILLION @ 2% mortality = 226,000 Canadians dead.

Go ahead and scale it to what you think the actual mortality rate is and how many people you think will get the virus....   the number is still astronomical.   And the CPC wants to debate the finer points of democracy.  Stupid f’kn idiots.

It's also no reason to try and impose a two year dictatorship.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 04:40:04 pm
Finer points of democracy?  No, they just don't want to give the Liberals a blank cheque and absolute power for the next 2 years.  The Liberals wouldn't give it to the CPC either, nor should they.


Right now, I’ll take quick action over arguing over when a vote might take place, how to gather a quorum and whether the opposition Senators will hold it up because Buttfuck, AB isn’t getting the same as Toronto, or whatever the CPC would like to argue over.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 04:41:39 pm
It's also no reason to try and impose a two year dictatorship.


I still don’t think people quite grasp the severity of the situation, including many people on this forum....

Quote
Patty Hajdu, the federal health minister, said COVID-19 could infect between 30 and 70 per cent of Canada’s population. That would mean somewhere between 11. 3 million and 26.3 million people in Canada could get sick, with varying severity.
https://nationalpost.com/news/may-soon-be-completely-out-of-control-covid-19s-dire-possibilities-could-dramatically-change-canada

11.3 MILLION @ 2% mortality = 226,000 Canadians dead.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 04:44:50 pm
Finer points of democracy?  No, they just don't want to give the Liberals a blank cheque and absolute power for the next 2 years.  The Liberals wouldn't give it to the CPC either, nor should they.

So you admit they are playing politics amidst a pandemic never before seen certainly in our lifetimes.?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 04:47:58 pm

I still don’t think people quite grasp the severity of the situation, including many people on this forum....

Quote
Patty Hajdu, the federal health minister, said COVID-19 could infect between 30 and 70 per cent of Canada’s population. That would mean somewhere between 11. 3 million and 26.3 million people in Canada could get sick, with varying severity.
https://nationalpost.com/news/may-soon-be-completely-out-of-control-covid-19s-dire-possibilities-could-dramatically-change-canada

11.3 MILLION @ 2% mortality = 226,000 Canadians dead.

It's still no reason to declare a two year dictatorship. Everyone knows this has to be dealt with in a strong manner.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 04:54:51 pm
So you admit they are playing politics amidst a pandemic never before seen certainly in our lifetimes.?

So are the Liberals. Present the spending bill and vote on it, forget trying to grab unlimited power for two years as part of it. The CPC has already said it supports the spending provisions in the bill but not the power grab.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 05:15:20 pm
So you admit they are playing politics amidst a pandemic never before seen certainly in our lifetimes.?

LOL.  Would you give Harper a blank cheque and the power to bypass Parliament for the next 2 years?  That's what I thought.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 05:21:33 pm
I returned to show that I, and Ron Paul, were right.  The Liberal government just tried to push for emergency powers to grant them vast new powers to tax and spend until December 2021 without Parliament approval.  Their attempt failed.  Nice try though.  Sounds like something Harper would try to do.  I guess people in power always want more power.

Oh look there's more!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cellphone-tracking-trudeau-covid-1.5508236

"Trudeau leaves door open to using smartphone data to track Canadians' compliance with pandemic rules

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau hasn't ruled out using smartphone data to track whether people are complying with public health officials' pleas for them to stay inside to curb the COVID-19 pandemic — a notion that raises some thorny ethical dilemmas regarding public health and privacy rights."


 :D :D :D  These f*cking tyrants.  Hey, remember when they wanted access to our bank accounts to track our spending habits?   ???

(https://d32dm0rphc51dk.cloudfront.net/onCv2XYHzJ6r_xIfKtMDpA/large.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 05:22:53 pm
LOL.  Would you give Harper a blank cheque and the power to bypass Parliament for the next 2 years?  That's what I thought.

Still playing politics I see. That's what I thought.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 05:26:39 pm
(https://nationalpostcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/trudeau-castro.jpg?w=620&quality=60&strip=all)

Bahahaha.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 05:28:23 pm
Oh look there's more!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cellphone-tracking-trudeau-covid-1.5508236

"Trudeau leaves door open to using smartphone data to track Canadians' compliance with pandemic rules

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau hasn't ruled out using smartphone data to track whether people are complying with public health officials' pleas for them to stay inside to curb the COVID-19 pandemic — a notion that raises some thorny ethical dilemmas regarding public health and privacy rights."


 :D :D :D  These f*cking tyrants.  Hey, remember when they wanted access to our bank accounts to track our spending habits?   ???


Personally, I think that’s brilliant. 

It is going to take rubber bullets and tear gas to get it through some thick skulls that they can’t be in groups.  It’s time to use some “less-lethal” violence to save innocent lives. 

Clearly you still don’t grasp the problem if you think it’s ok for people to ignore these orders.   If these measures upset the conspiratards among us, f*ck ‘em.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 05:40:05 pm
Personally, I think that’s brilliant. 

It is going to take rubber bullets and tear gas to get it through some thick skulls that they can’t be in groups.  It’s time to use some “less-lethal” violence to save innocent lives. 

Clearly you still don’t grasp the problem if you think it’s ok for people to ignore these orders.   If these measures upset the conspiratards among us, f*ck ‘em.

For those who have been told to self isolate because they are returning to the country or have been exposed and those who have been told to self quarantine because they have tested positive, I agree with this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 05:53:56 pm
Personally, I think that’s brilliant. 

It is going to take rubber bullets and tear gas to get it through some thick skulls that they can’t be in groups.  It’s time to use some “less-lethal” violence to save innocent lives. 

Clearly you still don’t grasp the problem if you think it’s ok for people to ignore these orders.   If these measures upset the conspiratards among us, f*ck ‘em.

I never said it's ok for people to go out.  People should stay home as much as possible.  There are currently no "orders", there's no laws saying you can't leave your house, and nobody is going to be shooting people with rubber bullets and tear gas when no laws are in place.  But people should stay home.

A month ago I said they should restrict international flights/travel.  I was told that was dumb, I guess because Trump did it.  Now travel is locked down.

Then I said Ron Paul was right to be wary that politicians could use the crisis to power grab, you guys called me a Covidiot conspiracy nut.  Now you guys want people tear gassed and shot with rubber bullets, mass cellphone location surveillance by government, and the government to have unlimited powers to tax and spend and bypass Parliament.  :D

I also said we shouldn't be running deficits the last few years in order to save that money for the next recession.  I've been proven right yet again.  I shouldn't be typing on a message board, I should be running for Prime Minister.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 06:00:05 pm
I never said it's ok for people to go out.  People should stay home as much as possible.  There are currently no "orders", there's no laws saying you can't leave your house, and nobody is going to be shooting people with rubber bullets and tear gas when no laws are in place.  But people should stay home.



There are orders issued by public health authorities in several provinces. People are subject to fines. In Quebec, one woman who had tested positive and was ordered to stay inside was arrested when she went for a walk.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 06:03:37 pm
I see Trump cancelled his daily briefing today and instead went over to see his li'l buddies at Fox knowing they'll happily accept his BS. He goes on to say he thinks all will be right again by Easter, which is just under 3 weeks away. I suspect his followers are in for a big disappointment He'll try to blame the Dems. of course.

Imagine if Trump was asking for emergency powers to bypass Congress.  You'd be freaking out.  As you should.  Hypocrites, the lot of you.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 06:17:25 pm
Scheer is right on this one. Pass the spending bill now and get things moving. Bicker about the other stuff later.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 06:42:34 pm
Imagine if Trump was asking for emergency powers to bypass Congress.  You'd be freaking out.  As you should.  Hypocrites, the lot of you.

Why would trump ask for emergency powers to fight what he thinks is a "hoax"? Luckily we have more intelligent people on our hill.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 06:53:13 pm
Imagine if Trump was asking for emergency powers to bypass Congress.  You'd be freaking out.  As you should.  Hypocrites, the lot of you.

 This isn’t the USA.  Trudeau isn’t Trump.  Stay focused....   

Quote
Then I said Ron Paul was right...


Wrong country again....   but Ron Paul is a nutbar conspiratard.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 24, 2020, 06:56:03 pm
Scheer is right on this one. Pass the spending bill now and get things moving. Bicker about the other stuff later.

Scott Reid says they need to invade parliament and take back the power!!   ::)

This is why the CPC is harmful to the country....   fringe idiots like Reid.  Scheer was one of them...  he toned it down a bit as leader. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 07:50:10 pm
Scott Reid says they need to invade parliament and take back the power!!   ::)

This is why the CPC is harmful to the country....   fringe idiots like Reid.  Scheer was one of them...  he toned it down a bit as leader.

Scott Reid may be an idiot but Scheer is right on this one. Pass the spending bill and talk about the rest later. If the Liberals insist on adding a carte blanch on tax and spending for the nest 21 months to the bill, it is they that are holding it up, not the CPC.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 08:45:14 pm
This was NOT in the CBC radio report I heard today.

Well, I've been watching it most of the night.... https://twitter.com/PierrePoilievre/status/1242098813189455880?s=20
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 08:46:11 pm
I still don’t think people quite grasp the severity of the situation, including many people on this forum....
https://nationalpost.com/news/may-soon-be-completely-out-of-control-covid-19s-dire-possibilities-could-dramatically-change-canada

11.3 MILLION @ 2% mortality = 226,000 Canadians dead.

Go ahead and scale it to what you think the actual mortality rate is and how many people you think will get the virus....   the number is still astronomical.   And the CPC wants to debate the finer points of democracy.  Stupid f’kn idiots.

Yeah - I'll point out that the mortality rate when you run out of ventilators is up to 10%.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 08:48:11 pm
LOL.  Would you give Harper a blank cheque and the power to bypass Parliament for the next 2 years?  That's what I thought.

Right now? Of course I would.  At least to September 30th.  That's what the Bloc has gotten the Liberals to agree to.  They can't increase taxes, but can borrow without consent until September 30th.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 24, 2020, 08:52:59 pm
It's still no reason to declare a two year dictatorship. Everyone knows this has to be dealt with in a strong manner.
You know they can invoke he War Measures Act at any time given the circumstances and we could actually have our rights and freedoms suspended, right?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 24, 2020, 08:54:30 pm
Imagine if Trump was asking for emergency powers to bypass Congress.  You'd be freaking out.  As you should.  Hypocrites, the lot of you.
Imagine if the Trump administration could be taken down by a confidence motion before his term was up. Imagine if Canada had the same political system as the US. Imagine little pink unicorns dancing on the head of a pin.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 09:22:17 pm
You know they can invoke he War Measures Act at any time given the circumstances and we could actually have our rights and freedoms suspended, right?

It's now called the Emergency Measures Act and yes they could. Trudeau has already discussed it with the provinces.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2020, 09:25:35 pm
Imagine if the Trump administration could be taken down by a confidence motion before his term was up. Imagine if Canada had the same political system as the US. Imagine little pink unicorns dancing on the head of a pin.

Trudeau is using the situation to strong arm dictatorial powers. The opposition has already said they won't obstruct the spending part of the bill.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 09:30:25 pm
It's now called the Emergency Measures Act and yes they could. Trudeau has already discussed it with the provinces.

Well, if you want to be technical about it, it's called the Emergencies Act.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2020, 09:31:11 pm
Trudeau is using the situation to strong arm dictatorial powers. The opposition has already said they won't obstruct the spending part of the bill.

We're in a situation where 20% of Canadians are going to be unemployed (at least) and where if we don't act, over 1M Canadians could die.  If anything, this isn't strong enough.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 09:38:36 pm
Right now? Of course I would.  At least to September 30th.  That's what the Bloc has gotten the Liberals to agree to.  They can't increase taxes, but can borrow without consent until September 30th.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeswYJgf5mM

Sept is at least somewhat reasonable.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 09:44:40 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeswYJgf5mM

Sept is at least somewhat reasonable.

Find that dumb shit entertaining do ya?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 10:00:48 pm
We're in a situation where 20% of Canadians are going to be unemployed (at least) and where if we don't act, over 1M Canadians could die.  If anything, this isn't strong enough.

I'm not against giving the gov emergency spending power for a limited time.  2 years is ridiculous.  4-6 months past start of government fiscal is much more reasonable, and can always be extended.  They could put in a clause that if 2 non-Liberal parties in Parliament want the spending power stopped at any time before the 6 months is up, it could be done.  That would probably be agreed by the parties.

They need to inject money fast.  They should raise EI payouts, possibly extend the 36 week limit, lower the weeks needed to qualify etc.  Everyone should have a few weeks salary saved for emergencies, but many don't.  They might after this.

We need to shore up the healthcare community, we need to protect our doctors and nurses.  We need to get gloves, masks, goggles, sanitizer produced and shipped to them, makeshift tents/beds ready just in case etc.  More of a provincial matter but the feds need to help.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 24, 2020, 10:05:37 pm
Find that dumb **** entertaining do ya?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVFK8sVdJNg
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 24, 2020, 10:23:05 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVFK8sVdJNg

I thought so. Oh well, carry on.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 24, 2020, 11:51:36 pm
asswipeTrump is always looking for an excuse, someone to blame, someone to target (negative) media attention towards - while always deflecting away from his own incompetence. In recent days NY Governor Cuomo has established a presence/profile... a following, in how he has positively handled daily update pressers on the state of COVID-19 in NY City/State. Clearly, Trump has been rattled over the comparisons being drawn between he and Cuomo - rattled to the point where Trump is now openly criticizing Cuomo. The following short vid was from today's T-Force presser where medical expert Dr. Birx is responding to questions about COVID-19 in NY City... she completely ignores Trump interrupting her where he attempts to draw her into taking the bait with his "Do you blame the Governor for that" - the swarmy look on Trump says it all!

https://i.imgur.com/ulaK9KF.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 25, 2020, 12:09:20 am
for total COVID-19 cases, there are projections for the U.S. to overtake Italy... possibly even China... by this Friday! USA, USA, USA...

(https://i.imgur.com/w04vJ2R.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 25, 2020, 12:19:02 am
A lot of Ottawa insiders are pretty sure that the 2022 date was an unintentional mistake made by someone drafting the bill from today.  The government apparently intended to try for December 2020 as the end date.  I can't confirm any of that, of course.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 25, 2020, 12:40:46 am
from the Imperial College COVID-19 Response Team: the study (early draft) that significantly influenced current UK, US/Canada policy decisions (https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf)... that finally got Trump/Fox to back off the nattering claims that "the Chinese virus" was nothing more than a Democrat hoax intended to negatively influence Trump's reelection!

Quote
The Imperial College London group reported that if nothing was done by governments and individuals and the pandemic remained uncontrolled, 510,000 would die in Britain and 2.2 million in the United States over the course of the outbreak.

If Britain and the United States pursued more-ambitious measures to mitigate the spread of the coronavirus, to slow but not necessarily stop the epidemic over the coming few months, they could reduce mortality by half, to 260,000 people in the United Kingdom and 1.1 million in the United States.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 25, 2020, 01:01:08 am
https://i.imgur.com/WzLfdbP.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 01:56:08 am
Hey as much as I enjoy being a member of this forum and expressing my thoughts as we push back and forth as to our political preferences, I'd like to take just a moment to call a bit of a recess and say to all members I wish you all well in emerging from this very serious situation just as well as you entered into it. We can argue and agree until the cows come home and that's what keeps us interested. For now I just want to wish every one good health.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 02:07:09 am
And if you don't agree I'll come and punch your lights out. :D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 02:23:54 am
A lot of Ottawa insiders are pretty sure that the 2022 date was an unintentional mistake made by someone drafting the bill from today.  The government apparently intended to try for December 2020 as the end date.  I can't confirm any of that, of course.

C'mon you don't believe that do you?

Sounds like damage control twitter nonsense.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 02:24:19 am
Hey as much as I enjoy being a member of this forum and expressing my thoughts as we push back and forth as to our political preferences, I'd like to take just a moment to call a bit of a recess and say to all members I wish you all well in emerging from this very serious situation just as well as you entered into it. We can argue and agree until the cows come home and that's what keeps us interested. For now I just want to wish every one good health.

Same to you and your loved ones.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 25, 2020, 05:53:17 am
We're in a situation where 20% of Canadians are going to be unemployed (at least) and where if we don't act, over 1M Canadians could die.  If anything, this isn't strong enough.

21 months? Please. 3 months, even six then look at it again but 21 is just a blatant power grab. Doesn’t take much for you to throw democracy in the bin if it is a Liberal doing it.

In the meantime, pass the existing spending motion and get on with it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 25, 2020, 08:50:15 am
C'mon you don't believe that do you?

Sounds like damage control twitter nonsense.

It wasn't put forward by Liberals - or I'd agree.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 25, 2020, 11:11:48 am
It seems to have been settled for the present. I can appreciate the government's concern about getting things done when Parliament may not be able to sit but 21 months was way over the top. Get a virtual parliament going online. Hopefully our party leaders can now put their political instincts aside and work together to do what is right for the country. It has been done before and provincial legislatures seem able to do it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 25, 2020, 11:35:33 am
Today shows why they needed this extra power, even if they didn't get as much as they wanted.  Because of the number of requests for assistance, the direct support package has went from $27B to $52B.  We can't spend another 8 days getting there. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 11:40:18 am
EI payments are going to be a disaster.  1 million+ people making claims at the same time.  They just don't have the staff to process those, not even close.  Even before COVID it usually takes a 3-4 weeks for Service Canada to process a claim and for an applicant to start getting their payments.  They've hired new EI workers from other gov departments, but they need to be trained, and then they'll have little experience especially with complex claims.  Hopefully they can get up and going fast.

Meanwhile, it was impossible even before COVID to get through on the EI phone line to ask questions about your claim even before the crisis, they wouldn't even let you go on hold because there was so much volume on the phone lines.  That was with record low unemployment.  Now it's going to be a sh!t-show.

If people don't have money they can't make their mortgage payments, if people aren't making them then banks will have a sharp drop in revenue, putting the banks and the banking system at risk, flashback to 2008.  Feds may have to bail them out (loans).
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 11:47:00 am
Today shows why they needed this extra power, even if they didn't get as much as they wanted.  Because of the number of requests for assistance, the direct support package has went from $27B to $52B.  We can't spend another 8 days getting there.

Yes they need short-term power to inject money into the economy ASAP wherever/whenever needed.  Sh*t is going to hit the fan as people start to miss bill and mortgage/rent payments over the next month, especially 1st of the month.

If people can't pay their rent, people with investment property can't pay their mortgages.  I'd never own an investment property.  I wonder how the real estate market will get through all this.  My guess is it's going to come down to loans from the fed for banks.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 11:57:22 am
It wasn't put forward by Liberals - or I'd agree.

Then they would have no 1st hand knowledge of the situation.

I just don't believe it, without evidence.  I'm not a fool.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 25, 2020, 12:00:00 pm
EI payments are going to be a disaster.  1 million+ people making claims at the same time.  They just don't have the staff to process those, not even close.  Even before COVID it usually takes a 3-4 weeks for Service Canada to process a claim and for an applicant to start getting their payments.  They've hired new EI workers from other gov departments, but they need to be trained, and then they'll have little experience especially with complex claims.  Hopefully they can get up and going fast.

Meanwhile, it was impossible even before COVID to get through on the EI phone line to ask questions about your claim even before the crisis, they wouldn't even let you go on hold because there was so much volume on the phone lines.  That was with record low unemployment.  Now it's going to be a sh!t-show.

If people don't have money they can't make their mortgage payments, if people aren't making them then banks will have a sharp drop in revenue, putting the banks and the banking system at risk, flashback to 2008.  Feds may have to bail them out (loans).

People apply online right ?  They could just forgo manual checks as needed...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 25, 2020, 12:08:50 pm
EI payments are going to be a disaster.  1 million+ people making claims at the same time.  They just don't have the staff to process those, not even close.

They are shutting down all tax processing and using the extra staff from there.  Everyone will be funneled into the new program and the money is to go out with few requirements in 10 days from Apr 6.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 12:19:17 pm
Holy doodle, I'm just now hearing that Prince Charles has tested positive. At 93 years of age that could be a tough slog. I guess the Queen will have to kick him into the basement for awhile.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 25, 2020, 12:28:37 pm
Holy doodle, I'm just now hearing that Prince Charles has tested positive. At 93 years of age that could be a tough slog. I guess the Queen will have to kick him into the basement for awhile.

I made that mistake too Omni...

Prince Charles isn't her hubby, it's her baby son...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 12:33:41 pm
I made that mistake too Omni...

Prince Charles isn't her hubby, it's her baby son...

Ah yes, I stand corrected, thank you. It hit me just after I hit the post button I said "wait a minute".
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 25, 2020, 12:37:13 pm
The Royals will be fine....   except maybe the very oldest.  But they will have respirators and the best medical care available.   It’s the plebes who will be on a gurney in the hallways waiting for respirators to free up that will be the ones who die.

Don’t worry...  the very wealthy will be just fine.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 01:23:12 pm
Not long ago I posted here I had seen 4 passenger jet aircraft parked at my old stomping grounds at YQA. I just looked at the wx. cam pic again and there are now 8. Mostly Air Canada. The airlines were expected to take a big hit and it would seem they are.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 25, 2020, 02:11:02 pm
https://undark.org/2020/03/19/covid-19-health-worker-protection/

The wealthy have access to tests, masks, probably even ventilators for their exclusive use.  Healthcare workers don’t get tested and spread the virus around to the other patients and workers, causing many, many more infections.

Quote
In the current emergency, we cannot have one set of rules for celebrities and the rich, and another for frontline health workers and staff. The rich, after all, can stay cocooned in the safety of their homes, protected from financial precarity and economic disruption. Our doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, and other health workers and staff — often underpaid, overworked, and risking their own health to care for others — must expose themselves in order to do their jobs. What does it say about us when basketball players can be readily tested and treated, but our health care workforce cannot?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 03:36:04 pm
Leave to an A-hole like Trump to send out such a tweet regarding Mitt Romney's covid test coming back negative.

This is really great news! I am so happy I can barely speak. He may have been a terrible presidential candidate and an even worse U.S. Senator, but he is a RINO, and I like him a lot! 

He's making "jokes" about a serious issue and he's still spewing nonsense that all will be well by Easter.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 04:21:28 pm
Another briefing about to start from the WH soon. I wonder if Trump will show up. I wonder if Faucci will.Place your bets now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 25, 2020, 04:38:32 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Xp38KxE.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 04:42:59 pm
So why is it that now I'm trying to do my part by staying home as much as I can that I now have developed this extreme urge to eat a cherry pie? I very seldom eat any dessert. Is Corona trying to somehow lure me into going to the grocery store so it can get at me I wonder? I shall overcome. I hope.   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 04:45:51 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Xp38KxE.jpg)

"One picture is worth a thousand words" as the saying goes.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 05:14:53 pm
Of course Trump once again shows he is much better at lying than he seems to be at math, trying to brag that the US has now tested more people for Corona than has S. Korea, ignoring of course the US has over 6 times the population and have basically the same number of tests.

Currently 357k S. Korea
              367k US.

Works out to about 1 in 200 in S.K.
                             1 in 700 in the US.

Sory Donny, caught you lying again.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 05:35:29 pm
People apply online right ?  They could just forgo manual checks as needed...

Yes.  That's one solution.  A person at Service Canada needs to check over the worker's Record of Employment to see their wages and weeks/hours worked etc. and the reason for loss of work (people who quit aren't eligible).  Those Records of Employment are documents, sometimes hand-written my employers, needed to be manually looked at.

As you say, one solution is to simply take the worker's word for it and calculate payments based on whatever they mark down on the online application and then pay out ASAP, and if there's any overpayments they can worry about collecting that later when this has all died down.  Based on the Phoenix system debacle that will probably take years, but there's more important things right now.

Only problem is they aren't going to prosecute tens of thousands of people who lie on the application who say they got fired even if they actually quit, so they'd basically giving out free loans to tons of people LOL, but hey what's wrong with that given these times.  Only other issue is a lot of people will just spend the money thinking they won't have tot pay it back, then later it will take a long time for the gov to get that money back.

Edit:  the new emergency benefits program they introduced kinda just sounds like they're going to give out $2000 a month to everyone who have lost a job whether eligible for EI or not.  I would think it would work where if you submit any kind of ROE they'll just give you the money.  It's confusing so I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 25, 2020, 06:46:22 pm
asswipeTrump is always looking for an excuse, someone to blame, someone to target (negative) media attention towards - while always deflecting away from his own incompetence.

G7 nation foreign ministers have been meeting to develop an agreed-to set of priorities and actions to deal with COVID-19... this was realized but not the wording of the standard issued, 'formal joint statement'; accordingly no joint statement was issued and subsequently each nation has taken to providing its citizens an interpreted understanding of agreement. No agreement was forthcoming on the wording of the joint statement because (https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/25/politics/g7-coronavirus-statement/index.html):

- the U.S. (Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo) insisted the joint statement draft's many references to COVID-19 be replaced with the phrase, "Wuhan Virus", and
- the U.S. (Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo) wanted critical statements concerning China's early response to COVID-19

noticeably absent from the draft statement on priorities and actions was any mention of the 2-month U.S. delay in responding (aka, "TrumpDithering")
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 08:10:06 pm
My guess is Canada will fare better than most countries because our population density is so low and our population is so spread out geographically (horizontally).  It's easier for us to self-isolate.  Europe not so much.  Downside most of the pop lives near the US
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 25, 2020, 08:14:34 pm
My guess is Canada will fare better than most countries because our population density is so low and our population is so spread out geographically (horizontally).  It's easier for us to self-isolate.  Europe not so much.  Downside most of the pop lives near the US

A lot of provinces got ahead of this.  We were lucky that Europe had it first.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 25, 2020, 09:28:24 pm
It has just started....   don’t count on this being mild yet.  America is close...   they could have millions of cases soon...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 09:28:32 pm
I just came back from a visit to my local grocery store. It's one store in the midst of a large mall, where you usually have to search for a parking spot, especially this time of day. Parking spot?, I could have easily landed a Cessna there today. Kinda gave me the heebie jeebies. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 25, 2020, 09:41:31 pm
It has just started....   don’t count on this being mild yet.  America is close...   they could have millions of cases soon...

On trust me, I’m mentally preparing for the worst.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 25, 2020, 09:59:58 pm
A lot of provinces got ahead of this.  We were lucky that Europe had it first.

They didn't have it first.  Canada and the US had cases before Italy, UK, Spain, Sweden, Russia etc.  It's obvious population density is a factor.  Most major countries in Europe have around twice the population as Canada and are far, far smaller in size.  Italy, France, UK have 60+ million people each.   Italy and the UK could fit inside Manitoba with room to spare in terms of total land area.

We didn't do d!ck all. We didn't restrict travel until just recently, we didn't screen at airports.  Sophie Trudeau was photographed with Idris Alba on March 4th in the UK.  We're damn lucky.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 10:44:54 pm
They didn't have it first.  Canada and the US had cases before Italy, UK, Spain, Sweden, Russia etc.  It's obvious population density is a factor.  Most major countries in Europe have around twice the population as Canada and are far, far smaller in size.  Italy, France, UK have 60+ million people each.   Italy and the UK could fit inside Manitoba with room to spare in terms of total land area.

We didn't do d!ck all. We didn't restrict travel until just recently, we didn't screen at airports.  Sophie Trudeau was photographed with Idris Alba on March 4th in the UK.  We're damn lucky.

Actually the first cases outside of China did show up in Europe before Canada but not by much and it seems we were a bit slow in reacting but what we have does is certainly not "dick all".
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on March 25, 2020, 11:25:08 pm
Hey now we could all use a laugh. Hope this works.

https://media.giphy.com/media/TI4CUjjTSbCWzZhYnz/giphy.gif
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 26, 2020, 12:09:54 am
They didn't have it first.  Canada and the US had cases before Italy, UK, Spain, Sweden, Russia etc.  It's obvious population density is a factor.  Most major countries in Europe have around twice the population as Canada and are far, far smaller in size.  Italy, France, UK have 60+ million people each.   Italy and the UK could fit inside Manitoba with room to spare in terms of total land area.

We didn't do d!ck all. We didn't restrict travel until just recently, we didn't screen at airports.  Sophie Trudeau was photographed with Idris Alba on March 4th in the UK.  We're damn lucky.

I think our current numbers are pretty understated.  In BC we are only testing a) healthcare workers b) people who are associated with outbreaks or c) traveled and show symptoms. 

The only way you can get tested if you don't fit any of those criteria is if you're almost at the hospitalization stage. 

For all we know there is a tsunami headed our way.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 26, 2020, 12:34:45 am
Hey now we could all use a laugh. Hope this works.

https://media.giphy.com/media/TI4CUjjTSbCWzZhYnz/giphy.gif

the waldo concurs

https://media.giphy.com/media/TI4CUjjTSbCWzZhYnz/giphy.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 26, 2020, 12:51:05 am
ad from Super PAC, 'Priorities USA Action Fund (“PUSA”)'

https://i.imgur.com/kjqf8mu.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 11:30:27 am
I think our current numbers are pretty understated.  In BC we are only testing a) healthcare workers b) people who are associated with outbreaks or c) traveled and show symptoms. 

The only way you can get tested if you don't fit any of those criteria is if you're almost at the hospitalization stage. 

For all we know there is a tsunami headed our way.

I agree, but we can also say that about most countries.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 26, 2020, 11:45:24 am
We didn't do d!ck all. We didn't restrict travel until just recently, we didn't screen at airports.  Sophie Trudeau was photographed with Idris Alba on March 4th in the UK.  We're damn lucky.

We followed public health advice.  Airport screening and travel restrictions tend to be bullshit in that regard.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 26, 2020, 11:46:12 am
I think our current numbers are pretty understated.  In BC we are only testing a) healthcare workers b) people who are associated with outbreaks or c) traveled and show symptoms. 

The only way you can get tested if you don't fit any of those criteria is if you're almost at the hospitalization stage. 

For all we know there is a tsunami headed our way.

They probably are in most of the world. A brighter note, the number of new cases per day in BC had pretty much levelled off in the past few days.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 26, 2020, 11:46:43 am
I think our current numbers are pretty understated.  In BC we are only testing a) healthcare workers b) people who are associated with outbreaks or c) traveled and show symptoms. 

The only way you can get tested if you don't fit any of those criteria is if you're almost at the hospitalization stage. 

For all we know there is a tsunami headed our way.

The testing numbers don't support that at this stage.  Most of the tests come back negative (about 98% last I heard).  When the tests come back positive at a rate of 10% is apparently where you run into a problem.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 12:34:51 pm
We followed public health advice.  Airport screening and travel restrictions tend to be bullshit in that regard.

Then why are we restricting travel now?

If Sophie Trudeau didn't go to the UK she wouldn't have contracted COVID-19 there and brought it back to Canada.  If Joe Blow didn't travel from his house to that public gathering and contracted COVID-19 there he wouldn't have brought it back to his house and infected his family.  The point is to slow the spread and flatten the curve.  If every country immediately banned all travel the moment the outbreak occurred in Wuhan it would have made a big difference.  This situation is unprecedented in modern history, I guess we'll now know better for next time.

Airport screening may not be very effective.  Immediately mandating by law a 14-day self-isolation for all travelers would have been better.  Hindsight is 20/20.  I think next time countries will act more swiftly.  Maybe next time we'd do what we're doing now a month or 2 earlier.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Boges on March 26, 2020, 01:05:47 pm
Then why are we restricting travel now?

If Sophie Trudeau didn't go to the UK she wouldn't have contracted COVID-19 there and brought it back to Canada.  If Joe Blow didn't travel from his house to that public gathering and contracted COVID-19 there he wouldn't have brought it back to his house and infected his family.  The point is to slow the spread and flatten the curve.  If every country immediately banned all travel the moment the outbreak occurred in Wuhan it would have made a big difference.  This situation is unprecedented in modern history, I guess we'll now know better for next time.

Airport screening may not be very effective.  Immediately mandating by law a 14-day self-isolation for all travelers would have been better.  Hindsight is 20/20.  I think next time countries will act more swiftly.  Maybe next time we'd do what we're doing now a month or 2 earlier.

It's playing the result. No other outbreak in the 20th century has been as infectious as this one.

It's more contagious than the seasonal flu with a higher mortality rate and a much higher hospitalization rate.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 01:51:09 pm
It's playing the result. No other outbreak in the 20th century has been as infectious as this one.

It's more contagious than the seasonal flu with a higher mortality rate and a much higher hospitalization rate.

That's why I said hindsight is 20/20 and that this situation is unprecedented and that we've learned a lot in case something like this ever happens again.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 26, 2020, 02:10:34 pm
That's why I said hindsight is 20/20 and that this situation is unprecedented and that we've learned a lot in case something like this ever happens again.

In theory, we could learn a lot.   Just like in 1918, where up to 100 million people may have died, we should have learned a lot too. 

The lessons from this are going to mean some serious revamping of our entire system.  It will mean more stockpiling of equipment, which costs money.   It will mean less reliance on the ogre to the south of us, which means more money from gov’t to private industry to make that happen.  And probably an increase in costs to consumers.   To avoid the stupidity of suddenly having to hand out cheques to millions of people, it will probably mean a Universal Basic Income.  If we had that, in a case like this, gov’t would just increase the size of the cheque, instead of having to reinvent the wheel.

I think what it will take is taxing those who have more.   Taxing them a lot more.  They’ve been having it pretty easy in this country with the race to the bottom.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 26, 2020, 06:43:48 pm
for total COVID-19 cases, there are projections for the U.S. to overtake Italy... possibly even China... by this Friday! USA, USA, USA...

(https://i.imgur.com/w04vJ2R.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/nLErTnt.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 06:51:13 pm
In theory, we could learn a lot.   Just like in 1918, where up to 100 million people may have died, we should have learned a lot too. 

The lessons from this are going to mean some serious revamping of our entire system.  It will mean more stockpiling of equipment, which costs money.   It will mean less reliance on the ogre to the south of us, which means more money from gov’t to private industry to make that happen.  And probably an increase in costs to consumers.   To avoid the stupidity of suddenly having to hand out cheques to millions of people, it will probably mean a Universal Basic Income.  If we had that, in a case like this, gov’t would just increase the size of the cheque, instead of having to reinvent the wheel.

People will definitely use this as evidence for universal basic income.  I think it's a bit nuts to change our entire social welfare structure because of a once-in-a-lifetime event.  It's not hard at all to right now give every unemployed worker $2000 a month if you don't bother checking their applications for accuracy.  The applications for universal basic income top-ups wouldn't be much less right now when a million are laid off at once.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 06:59:26 pm
Waldo the USA has the 3rd largest population in the world that does more global business than anyone plus a big population of Chinese and Italian diaspora.  No sh!t they're gonna have a lot of cases.  New York State has around half the country's cases, gee I wonder why.  It's not because they're stupid.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 26, 2020, 07:18:10 pm
Waldo the USA has the 3rd largest population in the world that does more global business than anyone plus a big population of Chinese and Italian diaspora.  No sh!t they're gonna have a lot of cases.  New York State has around half the country's cases, gee I wonder why.  It's not because they're stupid.

China has the world's largest population.  The US has passed them.....consider that for a second.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 26, 2020, 07:21:07 pm
New York State has around half the country's cases, gee I wonder why.  It's not because they're stupid.

don't wonder... let the waldo learn ya! It's called testing; the most recent number I've seen has NY state test numbers @ ~125,000. Washington State has tested less than ~35,000... California less than 25,000 (although I interpret there are some ~50,000 test results pending... as California has ramped up its testing).

aside from the OrangeMan's idiocy, incompetence and dithering, there are key influences that cost the U.S. 2 months of lead-up testing time/results that would have significantly impacted upon U.S. pandemic preparedness:

COVID-19 Is Not a Black Swan. Trump Is the Black Swan --- The problem isn't that America couldn't plan for a pandemic. It's that we couldn't plan for a president so incompetent that he failed to follow the most basic protocols for fighting a pandemic.  (https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/covid-19-is-not-a-black-swan-trump-is-the-black-swan/)

Quote
When it comes to managing an outbreak, testing is the foundation on which everything else rests.

And the ability to test widely and quickly is of maximum importance at the beginning, before the outbreak reaches critical mass.

The U.S. seems to be finally catching up to the rest of the world in terms of testing capability as a matter of raw numbers, but in terms of total testing capacity relative to the populace, we’re still far below where we need to be.

And that 12 week period between the revelation of outbreak in Wuhan and the arrival of COVID-19 in America is time we cannot get back.

Please understand that this lag period is the defining mistake in what is happening right now in America. Everything would be different—everything—if the government had rushed production of effective testing that could be processed on-site.

And please understand that what I’m talking about isn’t a moonshot. It’s the basic blocking and tackling of epidemiology.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 08:33:13 pm
China has the world's largest population.  The US has passed them.....consider that for a second.

I guess having a totalitarian government has its perks.

You're assuming the numbers China is providing are truthful, and that they have the means in their third-world healthcare system to test people en masse as well as the richest country in human history.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 08:35:23 pm
People are also amazed how Russia has so few cases.  Not so amazing if that government has been lying about the numbers.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 26, 2020, 08:41:13 pm
COVID-19 Is Not a Black Swan. Trump Is the Black Swan --- The problem isn't that America couldn't plan for a pandemic. It's that we couldn't plan for a president so incompetent that he failed to follow the most basic protocols for fighting a pandemic.  (https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/covid-19-is-not-a-black-swan-trump-is-the-black-swan/)

WTF is thebulwark.com LOL.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel for that one wally! LOL.

I'm not saying Trump hasn't screwed up the US response, I've been criticizing both he and the Trudeau gov's response.  I'm saying there's many other factors.  Trump also doesn't control whether states decide to test or not, though he can put some pressure on them to do so, which it looks like he totally whiffed on.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 26, 2020, 09:03:30 pm
WTF is thebulwark.com LOL.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel for that one wally! LOL.

I'm not saying Trump hasn't screwed up the US response, I've been criticizing both he and the Trudeau gov's response.  I'm saying there's many other factors.  Trump also doesn't control whether states decide to test or not, though he can put some pressure on them to do so, which it looks like he totally whiffed on.
Trump is still a screw up. Look at his press conferences. Trump blabbing away about social distancing while his flunkies stand behind him shoulder to shoulder and Mnuchin sneezes into his hand. What a bunch of effing idiots.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 26, 2020, 09:27:39 pm
WTF is thebulwark.com LOL.  Scraping the bottom of the barrel for that one wally! LOL.

uhhh... it's actually a conservative leaning website that formed after the demise of the Weekly Standard. It certainly isn't Trump supporting given its principal commentators are openly and adamantly right-wing 'never-Trumpers' - but it has a developing and respected conservative aligned following. It's a shame you couldn't actually address the linked article itself!  ;D

I'm not saying Trump hasn't screwed up the US response, I've been criticizing both he and the Trudeau gov's response.  I'm saying there's many other factors.  Trump also doesn't control whether states decide to test or not, though he can put some pressure on them to do so, which it looks like he totally whiffed on.

pandemic response must be coordinated and driven by federal/national oversight - requiring key visible leadership that the public/media has confidence in. Notwithstanding the current mish-mash of differing and uncoordinated U.S. State level responses, State borders aren't a pandemic barrier - ya think!

you speak of "many other factors" but... somehow... can't manage to identify them, let alone even speak to their (in your mind) presumptive influences. Don't, as you say, scrape the bottom of your personal unsubstantiated barrel, step-up and go beyond yet another of your drive-by's! Sure you can...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 27, 2020, 12:11:08 am
Trump is still a screw up. Look at his press conferences. Trump blabbing away about social distancing while his flunkies stand behind him shoulder to shoulder and Mnuchin sneezes into his hand. What a bunch of effing idiots.

Trump is probably the most ignorant person of modern times.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 27, 2020, 12:16:34 am
Trump has a few good men morons helping him trying to kill Americans:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan-patrick-coronavirus-grandparents
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 27, 2020, 06:17:30 am
This crisis seems to be helping Trump's approval rating, incredibly.

As such, a rethink of democracy is in order.  The original design has been compromised.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 27, 2020, 08:52:26 am
This crisis seems to be helping Trump's approval rating, incredibly.

As such, a rethink of democracy is in order.  The original design has been compromised.

People rally around the POTUS during emergencies.  Dubya's approval rating skyrocketed after 9/11.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 27, 2020, 01:59:04 pm
The USofA has a perfectly good pandemic response plan laid out by their National Security Council that gives explicit instructions and timelines to fight a pandemic. 

Trump has ignored all of it.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 27, 2020, 02:08:37 pm
John Kerry is currently my favorite US politician bahaha.

https://twitter.com/JohnKerry/status/1243552337429438464
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 27, 2020, 02:23:54 pm
John Kerry is currently my favorite US politician bahaha.

https://twitter.com/JohnKerry/status/1243552337429438464

He isn’t a politician any longer.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 27, 2020, 05:13:10 pm
He isn’t a politician any longer.

Guess thats why he has the balls to say the word a$$hole.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 27, 2020, 08:22:10 pm
This is bordering on brain-dead.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/03/27/some-toronto-bus-routes-still-crowded-despite-covid-19-what-about-social-distancing.html

Quote
One bus driver who spoke to the Star on Friday said his early morning bus on Steeles Ave. West had been full each of the previous three days. The driver, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the TTC hadn’t authorized him to speak to media, said he was concerned for both himself and his passengers. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 27, 2020, 09:29:07 pm
I wonder what people can do if they rely on public transit?  I feel bad for them.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 27, 2020, 09:49:28 pm
How the fuck is a global pandemic turned into a partisan issue. Some of you need to step away from your keyboards for a minute and take a long look at the people around you.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 28, 2020, 12:41:46 am
Waldo the USA has the 3rd largest population in the world that does more global business than anyone plus a big population of Chinese and Italian diaspora.  No sh!t they're gonna have a lot of cases.  New York State has around half the country's cases, gee I wonder why.  It's not because they're stupid.

You're right.  The data columns of the site Waldo is using can be sorted.  If you look at death by 1 million people US is 20th.

ETA - I'm more concerned with deaths per 1mil than cases because testing obviously makes a difference.  Deaths can be misreported too but not as badly.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2020, 04:28:30 am
New York State has around half the country's cases, gee I wonder why.  It's not because they're stupid.

don't wonder... let the waldo learn ya! It's called testing; the most recent number I've seen has NY state test numbers @ ~125,000. Washington State has tested less than ~35,000... California less than 25,000 (although I interpret there are some ~50,000 test results pending... as California has ramped up its testing).

aside from the OrangeMan's idiocy, incompetence and dithering, there are key influences that cost the U.S. 2 months of lead-up testing time/results that would have significantly impacted upon U.S. pandemic preparedness:

COVID-19 Is Not a Black Swan. Trump Is the Black Swan --- The problem isn't that America couldn't plan for a pandemic. It's that we couldn't plan for a president so incompetent that he failed to follow the most basic protocols for fighting a pandemic.  (https://thebulwark.com/newsletter-issue/covid-19-is-not-a-black-swan-trump-is-the-black-swan/)

Quote
When it comes to managing an outbreak, testing is the foundation on which everything else rests.

And the ability to test widely and quickly is of maximum importance at the beginning, before the outbreak reaches critical mass.

The U.S. seems to be finally catching up to the rest of the world in terms of testing capability as a matter of raw numbers, but in terms of total testing capacity relative to the populace, we’re still far below where we need to be.

And that 12 week period between the revelation of outbreak in Wuhan and the arrival of COVID-19 in America is time we cannot get back.

Please understand that this lag period is the defining mistake in what is happening right now in America. Everything would be different—everything—if the government had rushed production of effective testing that could be processed on-site.

And please understand that what I’m talking about isn’t a moonshot. It’s the basic blocking and tackling of epidemiology.

You're right.  The data columns of the site Waldo is using can be sorted.  If you look at death by 1 million people US is 20th.

ETA - I'm more concerned with deaths per 1mil than cases because testing obviously makes a difference.  Deaths can be misreported too but not as badly.

deaths/million population is meaningless given the many disparate regions across the U.S. - with respective regions having their own socio-cultural reasons that contribute to the rate of spread... notwithstanding the lack of cohesive mandated strategies to help deal with the rate of spread; notwithstanding, many U.S. states have been late to adopt mitigation actions, if at all! The level of testing is key and right now insufficient testing is occurring to allow recognition and accompanying actions to be properly assigned - hence the continued exponential rise in cases, with the ever increasing death numbers.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2020, 01:16:19 pm
geezaz, and yes as member MH highlighted, this moron's popularity has risen and is being attributed to his "superb handling" of the response to COVID-19. What a dumbFn'Country!

https://i.imgur.com/F9JiUvw.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 28, 2020, 02:06:04 pm
geezaz, and yes as member MH highlighted, this moron's popularity has risen and is being attributed to his "superb handling" of the response to COVID-19. What a dumbFn'Country!

Uh no, people rally around the POTUS during an emergency.  Remember 9/11, Iraq War?  Hopefully it hits the sh!ts after this is over.

(https://zfacts.com/zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/zFacts-Bush-approval-rating.gif)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 28, 2020, 02:51:48 pm
Ontario Under-reporting cases by a third.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/03/27/ontario-has-missed-a-third-or-more-covid-19-cases-as-testing-backlog-has-grown-star-analysis-finds.html

By comparison, BC has no backlog, although it’s not without its problems.  However, BC has the capacity to do many more tests per day than Ontario. 

The lack of national standards with respect to health is appalling. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 28, 2020, 03:41:16 pm
Global death rate is now 4.6%.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 29, 2020, 01:44:23 am
Conrad Black wrote an article in the National Post about how overblown the reaction to the pandemic has been.  It’s akin to yelling “fire” in a crowded theatre.  Once this is over, he should be charged criminally. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 29, 2020, 08:24:31 am
The stats here are all inaccurate. There’s different tests with varying accuracy and different criteria for testing everywhere. Comparisons are difficult if not impossible right now. It’s going to be more than a year before we have a clear picture of this thing, imo.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2020, 11:48:49 am
U.S. COVID-19 death projections: Fauci 'worst case' // Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME)

(https://i.imgur.com/RP20CIy.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2020, 12:03:38 pm
Fauci is now the prime target of the MAGA crowd. He was on Trevor Noah a few nights ago. I found him quite impressive and he came across as a no BS professional. Just the facts. It's no wonder they are afraid of him.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2020, 01:10:43 pm
Germany is conducting half a million COVID-19 tests a week... the number of Germany's COVID-19 deaths correlates with that testing rigour! Per a leading German virologist, 'Christian Drosten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Drosten)':

https://i.imgur.com/UXR2Keo.mp4(https://i.imgur.com/Rq6AoXn.png)


Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 29, 2020, 01:26:32 pm
China is donating some equipment to Canada to help fight the virus. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/6745817/china-donates-medical-supplies-canada/
Quote
The Embassy said the Bank of China donated 30,000 medial masks, 10,000 sets of protective clothing, 10,000 goggles and 50,000 pairs of gloves to Canada on Friday.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on March 29, 2020, 03:54:31 pm
China is donating some equipment to Canada to help fight the virus. 

https://globalnews.ca/news/6745817/china-donates-medical-supplies-canada/

Of course. It's called pay it forward. We sent them some when their production was taxed, now they're producing a surplus and giving back.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2020, 05:31:48 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/qGJ4Hsn.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 29, 2020, 08:56:02 pm
" US coronavirus deaths double to over 2,000 within two days"

Holy crap.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/us-coronavirus-deaths-double-to-over-2000-within-two-days/ar-BB11Rup2?li=AAggFp5&ocid=mailsignout
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 29, 2020, 09:26:33 pm
Many celebrities getting ill and dying now.

This is it.  It's going to be a tough few months.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 29, 2020, 09:51:16 pm
Many celebrities getting ill and dying now.

This is it.  It's going to be a tough few months.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_from_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on March 30, 2020, 12:42:27 am
In theory, we could learn a lot.   Just like in 1918, where up to 100 million people may have died, we should have learned a lot too. 

The lessons from this are going to mean some serious revamping of our entire system.  It will mean more stockpiling of equipment, which costs money.   It will mean less reliance on the ogre to the south of us, which means more money from gov’t to private industry to make that happen.  And probably an increase in costs to consumers.   To avoid the stupidity of suddenly having to hand out cheques to millions of people, it will probably mean a Universal Basic Income.  If we had that, in a case like this, gov’t would just increase the size of the cheque, instead of having to reinvent the wheel.

I think what it will take is taxing those who have more.   Taxing them a lot more.  They’ve been having it pretty easy in this country with the race to the bottom.

I could see reinventing the economy.  If we were smart about this we'd look for a two-fer - rebuild our economy as if this crisis was the green economic apocalypse everyone's been living in terror of.  There's not much sense in trying to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again when climate activists will be looking to knock him right off his perch if we try to rebuild the same old wheezy economy. No doubt the calls to eschew any and all restraints protections such as environmental that get in the way of growth will be even louder and more desperate than before. We'll be just like China in no time and unleashing some mutant hybrid salmon/harp-seal/farmed-beaver fever on a hapless planet.

We have to rebuild our own manufacturing base but build green stuff and above all else stuff that lasts longer. I think the EU was on the brink of passing laws that require manufacturers to create longer lasting and repairable goods.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 30, 2020, 01:10:36 am
loyal Trumpist Governor Desantis of Florida state had to receive intense media/political scrutiny before acting on any anti-COVID countermeasures - not only 'late to the game' in deployment but also in some cases only half-measured... like his initial refusal to close Florida beaches before all the influx of SpringBreakers; and even then only ordering a couple of beaches to close after the fact. Of course, Trump has taken to providing cover for his toady, making sure to emphasize the numbers of elderly New Yorkers who travel to Florida - implying they are/will be a key influence impacting upon Floridians.

(https://i.imgur.com/68x5n2S.jpg)

so... about those location tracking apps that so many yutes are keen to install on their smartphones... so revealing (from Tectonix) - so potentially COVID-19 spreading:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2zuE3ISYU
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 30, 2020, 01:18:08 am
from, "OK, Boomer.".. to now... "Boomer Remover" - yup, it was trending for several days! Generational divide - nah, say it ain't so!

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zwAYxXso2w8/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 30, 2020, 01:49:41 am
https://i.imgur.com/uT55Iq6.mp4 => from today's t-force presser - questioning of Trump's BS statement made on Fox News... of course, the azzhole Trump denies making the statement


Cuomo says he needs 30,000 ventilators to avoid many coronavirus deaths. Trump doesn’t buy it. (https://www.vox.com/2020/3/27/21196789/trump-hannity-interview-cuomo-coronavirus-ventilators)

Quote
“I have a feeling that a lot of the numbers that are being in said in some areas are just bigger than they’re going to be. I don’t believe you need 40,000 or 30,000 ventilators,” Trump said. “You know, you go into major hospitals, sometimes they’ll have two ventilators, and now, all of the sudden they’re saying, ‘Can we order 30,000 ventilators?’”

The president’s comments represent more than an idle, factually dubious observation coming from someone who has already demonstrated he doesn’t understand why Covid-19 (the disease caused by coronavirus) is a unique public health crisis. They underscore the danger of his increasingly contentious relationship with the states on the front lines of the pandemic — particularly with those led by Democratic governors.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: cybercoma on March 30, 2020, 07:50:06 am
from, "OK, Boomer.".. to now... "Boomer Remover" - yup, it was trending for several days! Generational divide - nah, say it ain't so!

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zwAYxXso2w8/hqdefault.jpg)
I don't know when a few idiots posting dumb things on the internet became news, but this trend needs to stop.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 30, 2020, 09:17:38 am
also from Sunday's T-force briefing... in line with Trump's Fox News interview questioning the need for all the PPE for medical staff, at the briefing Trump implies a need to look into mask usage/numbers;  are "masks going out the back door"! Sad!

Trump's exact words per transcript: within his initial statement and in response to a follow-up media question:

(https://i.imgur.com/on5ovOP.png)

(of course, per CDC guidelines, medical practice: masks should be swapped out after each interaction with a COVID-19 patient)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 30, 2020, 11:02:03 am
Germany is conducting half a million COVID-19 tests a week... the number of Germany's COVID-19 deaths correlates with that testing rigour! Per a leading German virologist, 'Christian Drosten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Drosten)':

https://i.imgur.com/UXR2Keo.mp4(https://i.imgur.com/Rq6AoXn.png)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/germany-coronavirus-death-rate-reasons-1.5513816
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 30, 2020, 11:31:51 am
I could see reinventing the economy.  If we were smart about this we'd look for a two-fer - rebuild our economy as if this crisis was the green economic apocalypse everyone's been living in terror of.  There's not much sense in trying to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again when climate activists will be looking to knock him right off his perch if we try to rebuild the same old wheezy economy. No doubt the calls to eschew any and all restraints protections such as environmental that get in the way of growth will be even louder and more desperate than before. We'll be just like China in no time and unleashing some mutant hybrid salmon/harp-seal/farmed-beaver fever on a hapless planet.

We have to rebuild our own manufacturing base but build green stuff and above all else stuff that lasts longer. I think the EU was on the brink of passing laws that require manufacturers to create longer lasting and repairable goods.

I like your ideas Eyeball.  Although, viruses can come from anywhere, but its not a surprise they may originate in the most populated areas on the planet. 

I’m not sure about manufacturing “stuff” though, green or not.  I think we need to manufacture technology.  This should be the focus of our governments.  We pay lip service to the “tech jobs”, but don’t follow through nearly enough.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 30, 2020, 11:40:13 am
from, "OK, Boomer.".. to now... "Boomer Remover" - yup, it was trending for several days! Generational divide - nah, say it ain't so!

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zwAYxXso2w8/hqdefault.jpg)

That's pretty evil.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 30, 2020, 04:16:04 pm
for Las Vegas homeless... fresh painted lines is a nice touch!

(https://i.imgur.com/fOH89aR.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 30, 2020, 05:58:52 pm
from, "OK, Boomer.".. to now... "Boomer Remover" - yup, it was trending for several days! Generational divide - nah, say it ain't so!

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zwAYxXso2w8/hqdefault.jpg)


I first heard that about two weeks ago from my colleague.  Apparently his high-school aged kids use the phrase.  I was aghast at first, but who am I kidding.  I'd think it was hilarious too if I was in high school.

My 10 year old ok boomer's me all the time.  Kids are all assholes.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 30, 2020, 08:51:34 pm
My 10 year old ok boomer's me all the time.  Kids are all assholes.

You are not a Boomer
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 31, 2020, 01:16:47 am
You are not a Boomer

Correct, I'm a gen-xer, but anyone over 25 is a boomer as far as they're concerned. 

Enjoy easy while he's still cute.  Before you know, he'll be one of them.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 31, 2020, 01:19:07 am
I went grocery shopping tonight in a makeshift niqab after watching a couple of youtube videos.

It was a learning lesson and not a pleasant one.  Very steamy glasses.



Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on March 31, 2020, 02:34:03 am
https://i.imgur.com/IsodEkn.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 31, 2020, 11:12:17 am
Correct, I'm a gen-xer, but anyone over 25 is a boomer as far as they're concerned. 

Enjoy easy while he's still cute.  Before you know, he'll be one of them.

He's starting to demand more things.

He knows the fake remote control we gave him doesn't control anything.

He knows that the shitty vinyl record we gave him is a beater and he wants the fancy ones out of reach.   :D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 31, 2020, 01:33:30 pm
Canada will soon have a ventilator capacity to rival that of Germany.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 31, 2020, 02:27:08 pm
I went grocery shopping tonight in a makeshift niqab after watching a couple of youtube videos.

It was a learning lesson and not a pleasant one.  Very steamy glasses.

I went this morning.  I wear disposable latex gloves that i remove and dispose of once i put the cart away.  I also use isopropyl alcohol on stuff that was touched by anyone, where i can.  And of course, wash hands/face thoroughly once I’m home.  It’s pretty simple precautions that I think will be very effective.  Plus, i went at t a quiet time 1st thing in the morning.

If I need a ventilator, I’m hoping it will be once most people are finished using them....   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 31, 2020, 04:44:07 pm
Canada will soon have a ventilator capacity to rival that of Germany.

Here's the story:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-medical-supplies-procurement-1.5516068
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 31, 2020, 05:03:41 pm
Hopefully we can get them.

 In Britain, F1 teams are now making ventilators. Although they are not large companies, (the largest employ around 1,000) they have some of the most sophisticated engineering and manufacturing facilities in existence.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on March 31, 2020, 05:10:24 pm
Hopefully we can get them.

 In Britain, F1 teams are now making ventilators. Although they are not large companies, (the largest employ around 1,000) they have some of the most sophisticated engineering and manufacturing facilities in existence.

They will be the lightest, most aerodynamic ventilators ever built able to pump 4000 cubic metres per second and cost $360,000 each.  But they will need frequent servicing. 

J/k....that’s great!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on March 31, 2020, 05:16:22 pm
They will be the lightest, most aerodynamic ventilators ever built able to pump 4000 cubic metres per second and cost $360,000 each.  But they will need frequent servicing. 

J/k....that’s great!

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.uk-based-f1-teams-unite-around-project-pitlane-to-assist-with-ventilator.7G8gQu9v8j6aSgqk3P52fp.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/formula1/coronavirus-breathing-aid-f1-mercedes-ventilator-intensive-care-uk-update-a9433101.html
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 31, 2020, 06:55:04 pm
I went this morning.  I wear disposable latex gloves that i remove and dispose of once i put the cart away.  I also use isopropyl alcohol on stuff that was touched by anyone, where i can.  And of course, wash hands/face thoroughly once I’m home.  It’s pretty simple precautions that I think will be very effective.  Plus, i went at t a quiet time 1st thing in the morning.


You're soft, I wipe everything down with clorox wipes and then take a shower. 

Forgetting something on the shopping list isn't what it used to be either.  Level 9 catastrophe.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 31, 2020, 06:57:22 pm
I'm starting to get pretty worried about the neighbours, guys.  We knew it's gonna be ugly, but this level of ugliness is exceeding my expectations.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on March 31, 2020, 07:01:00 pm
I'm starting to get pretty worried about the neighbours, guys.  We knew it's gonna be ugly, but this level of ugliness is exceeding my expectations.

How so ?  :o
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 31, 2020, 07:06:23 pm
How so ?  :o

They're going to be like Italy/Spain with the way their exponential growth curve is going but with 6 times the population.  Add in their federal leadership and national divide to exacerbate the regional divides and they may end up worse than Italy/Spain.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 31, 2020, 08:19:42 pm
Hopefully we can get them.

The first 1500 or so are apparently to start arriving next week.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on March 31, 2020, 08:20:23 pm
They're going to be like Italy/Spain with the way their exponential growth curve is going but with 6 times the population.  Add in their federal leadership and national divide to exacerbate the regional divides and they may end up worse than Italy/Spain.

They already reached Italy/Spain daily death numbers today.  France will be there as well in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on March 31, 2020, 08:22:38 pm
They already reached Italy/Spain daily death numbers today.  France will be there as well in a couple of days.

I know, I mean per capita.  They have 6 times the population of Italy and their curve just began.  :(
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 31, 2020, 09:49:25 pm
This could sink Trump.  Then again, they re-elected George W. Bush.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 12:39:33 am
They're going to be like Italy/Spain with the way their exponential growth curve is going but with 6 times the population.  Add in their federal leadership and national divide to exacerbate the regional divides and they may end up worse than Italy/Spain.

https://i.imgur.com/YRUcI38.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 11:22:15 am
Larry David PSA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCSoHNU38Uk
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 12:27:41 pm
the latest azz-covering play has Trumpists blaming impeachment for Trump's lack of early action on the COVID-19 outbreak... blaming Democrats; in particular targeting Speaker Pelosi for 'interfering with Dear Leader's ability to react' - anything to deflect away from Trump's incompetence, dithering and outright refusal to listen to those experts who informed early in late December/early January!

U.S. Senate Majority leader Turtle McConnell had one of the more indirect 'nuanced' statements:

Quote
And it came up while we were tied down on the impeachment trial. And I think it diverted the attention of the government, because everything every day was all about impeachment.

somehow, through all that claimed impeachment deflecting period:
- Trump held multi-state rallies on Jan 9, Jan 14, Jan 28, Jan 30, Feb 10, Feb 19, Feb 20, Feb 21, Feb 28
- Trump golfed on Jan 18, Jan 19, Feb 1, Feb 15, Mar 7, Mar 8
- Trump attended large gatherings at his "Winter White House Mar-a-Lago" March 6-March 8: RNC fundraising event; "a working dinner" with Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro and a birthday party for Junior's girlfriend
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 02:59:55 pm
using the common seasonal flu as a comparative measure, on numerous occasions Trumpy downplayed the severity and lethality of COVID-19... and hyped false treatment options while also claiming a vaccine defence was just a short period away:

(https://i.imgur.com/0Wn4u1S.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 01, 2020, 03:16:17 pm
When you think about it... this is actually the kind of thing that could have larger implications in terms of political stability.  Do you think the Reichstag Fire was a big event compared to this ?

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 03:34:30 pm
When you think about it... this is actually the kind of thing that could have larger implications in terms of political stability.  Do you think the Reichstag Fire was a big event compared to this ?

is the deepDeepState, the deeperState... smart enough to have planned (and if not planned outright, then leveraged), a like "COVID-19 fire" event to subversively bring forward

(https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2016-02-27-1456595959-4038664-trumphitlertimefaux1-thumb.jpg)

cause there's no way Trump could use a national emergency to extend his presidency/admin - nah, could never happen!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 03:35:29 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIKTT7dvoCc&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 01, 2020, 03:49:49 pm
...cause there's no way Trump could use a national emergency to extend his presidency/admin - nah, could never happen!

We were in a meeting today where an advisor to our CIO spoke and said he was worried about border security.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 01, 2020, 04:24:58 pm
Brother Spell is preaching the Good Word!!! 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/03/31/coronavirus-louisiana-pastor-charged-after-holding-large-services/5096839002/
Quote
Rev. Tony Spell of the Life Tabernacle Church in the city of Central, around 15 miles northeast of Baton Rouge, has held services twice a week despite the state orders. He claimed that up to 1,000 churchgoers, bussed in from five different Louisiana parishes, were in attendance.

Louisiana is one of the states most severely affected by coronavirus, with more than 5,000 cases and 239 deaths as of Tuesday, its deadliest day so far.

Central Police Chief Roger Corcoran called Spell’s decision to hold service despite the social distancing orders “reckless and irresponsible.”



https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/03/31/coronavirus-florida-megachurch-pastor-arrested-church-amid-orders/5093160002/

Quote
Officials arrested the pastor of a megachurch after detectives said he held two Sunday services with hundreds of people and violated a safer-at-home order in place to limit the spread of the coronavirus.



Religion poisons everything.  If this is happening in Canada, tear gas and rubber bullets will disperse the crowd and save lives.

This is why we need a f’kn moat between us and America.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 01, 2020, 04:54:55 pm
Does anyone know why Quebec's numbers are so high?

I thought maybe they're testing more but they seem to have the same criteria as ROC. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 01, 2020, 05:03:58 pm
14 residents in a single nursing home in Ont. dead and it’s likely not contained there yet.   Very sad.

Hoping my old buddy’s home here in town doesn’t get it...  he had to check himself into one after he realized he couldn’t take care of himself any longer.  Then this hit right after....   I haven’t had a chance to visit him yet.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 01, 2020, 05:08:27 pm
Does anyone know why Quebec's numbers are so high?

I thought maybe they're testing more but they seem to have the same criteria as ROC.

Montreal has most cases, no? 

Hopefully this is studied in the months following, but denser cities are going to be hit harder, especially if they don’t act in time (whether they knew to act or not is a different story).  Montreal also has an extensive subway, unlike other cities in Canada....  imagine all those thousands of people with viruses touching the handrails and ticket dispensers...   But that’s me speculating.  Don’t take my word for it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 01, 2020, 06:36:11 pm
Yes, there's like 2K cases in Monteal.  Toronto has a bigger population though and they have subways as well.  So does Vancouver, but at least ours are mostly above ground and get some fresh air at least.

I read a while back when the border closing talks began that a lot of snow birds came back to Montreal.  They were parked in the Walmart parking lot with their RV's and then hoarded supplies and went home.

They could've brought it with them. 

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 01, 2020, 06:59:08 pm
When you think about it... this is actually the kind of thing that could have larger implications in terms of political stability.  Do you think the Reichstag Fire was a big event compared to this ?

Whoa whoa whoa, now you're a paranoid conspiracy nut.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 01, 2020, 07:02:31 pm
(https://images.huffingtonpost.com/2016-02-27-1456595959-4038664-trumphitlertimefaux1-thumb.jpg)

cause there's no way Trump could use a national emergency to extend his presidency/admin - nah, could never happen!

6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust > 6 million Jews live in the USA, the same population as Israel > If all Jews get COVID-19 and die, it will be the new jewish holocaust > Trump is the new Hitler
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 01, 2020, 07:24:22 pm
We were in a meeting today where an advisor to our CIO spoke and said he was worried about border security.

That's interesting, I never really thought of that.

Our government would only stop them for health reasons since immigration and refugee crossings have been stopped.

I wonder how exactly our gov is currently stopping illegal border crossers.  Just watched this clip on the Roxham Road crossing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CArjX-gzi5o
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 07:41:41 pm
Whoa whoa whoa, now you're a paranoid conspiracy nut.

in terms of questioning impacts upon political instability, member MH's question is legitimate. Equally, his comparative reference to the purposeful arson fire as a key event in launching a dictatorship holds if one accepts Trump... could/might... leverage a national emergency to stay in office - hence the like waldo question. Long before COVID-19, "many" have spoken/written/speculated on whether Trump would accept an electoral defeat as a legitimate result... Trumps own statements fueled that speculation (conspiracy if you like), particularly his past questioning of election results ...notwithstanding his oft musings to being 'leader for life' (ala Chinese leader Xi Jinping in that position with the removal of term limits). What if Trump won’t accept 2020 defeat? (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/21/trump-election-2020-1374589). Only a simpleton... pinhead... would react with a holocaust reach - oh, that was you... carry on!  ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on April 01, 2020, 07:45:25 pm
They aren't stopping illegal border crossings - the US has simply agreed to take them back on a temporary basis.  But, all of this likely breaks international law.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 01, 2020, 07:55:55 pm
They aren't stopping illegal border crossings - the US has simply agreed to take them back on a temporary basis.  But, all of this likely breaks international law.

It might, this is pretty grey area.  Forcing people to quarantine, stopping travel, and forcing businesses to close en masse isn't exactly constitutional either.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2020, 07:57:05 pm
Does anyone know why Quebec's numbers are so high?

I thought maybe they're testing more but they seem to have the same criteria as ROC.

significant ties to New York and France; after Feb 28 as last school day, thousands of Quebec spring-breakers drove into the U.S. and flew to Europe/Caribbean on holiday
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 01, 2020, 08:57:40 pm
Interesting that a Hasidic Jewish community in Montreal is under quarantine.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/boisbriand-releases-plan-to-enforce-quarantine-among-tosh-community/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 01, 2020, 10:32:46 pm
significant ties to New York and France; after Feb 28 as last school day, thousands of Quebec spring-breakers drove into the U.S. and flew to Europe/Caribbean on holiday

More than Ontario though?  They have twice the cases as ON.

Did Quebec cancel schooling on Feb 28 you're saying?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 02, 2020, 02:55:43 am
More than Ontario though?  They have twice the cases as ON.

Ontario is lagging behind the country in testing for the virus, so don’t put too much stock in the lower numbers.  The low numbers are due to Ford gov’t incompetence in actually knowing what’s happening...   except he’s being pretty honest about the situation. 

 
Quote
As Ontario announced 426 more cases of COVID-19 on Wednesday, a 22 per cent daily increase, officials in the province offered stark warnings of what is coming. “There’s very little separating what we will face here in Ontario from the devastation we’ve seen in Italy and Spain,” said Ontario Premier Doug Ford. “We know a surge is coming.”


In Ontario, politicians and public health experts are facing increased criticism, in part because, while the number of cases surge, the province’s low rate of testing is far short of Alberta and British Columbia on a per capita basis, and nearly half that of Canada as a whole. On Monday, the province removed the statistic on its testing backlog from its public website, only to return it after an outcry on social media. (It is down to about 3,000 from more than 10,000 in the last few days.)


https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/coronavirus-in-canada-these-charts-show-how-our-fight-to-flatten-the-curve-is-going/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on April 02, 2020, 03:07:04 pm
Ontario is lagging behind the country in testing for the virus, so don’t put too much stock in the lower numbers.  The low numbers are due to Ford gov’t incompetence in actually knowing what’s happening...   except he’s being pretty honest about the situation. 

 https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/coronavirus-in-canada-these-charts-show-how-our-fight-to-flatten-the-curve-is-going/
https://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/CORONAVIRUS-CHART-MAR30-02.png

This chart in particular shows an anomalous jump in cases in Quebec in the early stage. Not sure why.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 02, 2020, 05:08:27 pm
Does anyone know why Quebec's numbers are so high?

I thought maybe they're testing more but they seem to have the same criteria as ROC.

significant ties to New York and France; after Feb 28 as last school day, thousands of Quebec spring-breakers drove into the U.S. and flew to Europe/Caribbean on holiday

More than Ontario though?  They have twice the cases as ON.

Did Quebec cancel schooling on Feb 28 you're saying?

Feb 28th was the last day of school in Quebec... before Spring Break. Quebec students returned to school on March 9... and on March 13, after four days of classes, the province closed schools and the federal government advised against non-essential travel outside Canada.

Spring Break dates - Ontario versus Quebec

=> Ontario   March 16 to 20
=> Quebec   March 2 to 9
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 02, 2020, 05:10:05 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/hLLDKpu.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 02, 2020, 05:17:42 pm
Everyone and everything Trump has blamed for his coronavirus response (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/31/everyone-everything-trump-has-blamed-his-coronavirus-response/)

Quote
“I don’t take responsibility at all.”

That’s what President Trump said this month when asked whether he takes responsibility for the slow rollout of testing that public health officials say handicapped the country’s ability to protect Americans from the coronavirus.

But Trump’s desire to not take responsibility could also be extrapolated to the coronavirus crisis in general. Trump has thrown blame in nearly a dozen different directions for the virus’s spread and different aspects of the response to it.

As he acknowledges that 100,000 to 200,000 Americans could die of the virus, here are the people and places he’s blamed for it, with some added context:

(https://i.imgur.com/x1JW0cH.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 02, 2020, 06:48:06 pm
Spring Break dates - Ontario versus Quebec

=> Ontario   March 16 to 20
=> Quebec   March 2 to 9

That could definitely have something to do with it.  Also squid mentioned Ontario hasn't done as many tests per capita as other provinces.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 02, 2020, 07:20:06 pm
All the anti-Vaxxers should be the last to get vaccines.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 02, 2020, 09:10:45 pm
https://youtu.be/P_tv7M-_rL4

Georgia governor says on April 1st that he just found out asymptomatic people can be contagious.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 02, 2020, 09:35:51 pm

Georgia governor says on April 1st that he just found out asymptomatic people can be contagious.

If it wasn't so fkn stupid, it would be funny.

He should be impeached.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 02, 2020, 10:41:07 pm
Georgia governor says on April 1st that he just found out asymptomatic people can be contagious.

Wow.  That's epic incompetence.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 02, 2020, 10:57:16 pm
A friend sent me this yesterday.

Quote
I was in long line 7:45 this morning at Sobeys which opens at 8:00 for seniors only. A young man came from the parking lot and tried to cut in at the front of the line, but an old lady beat him back into the parking lot with her cane. He returned and tried to cut in again but an old man punched him in the gut, kicked him to the ground and rolled him away. As he approached the line for the third time he said, "if you old suckers don't let me unlock the door you will never get in there".
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 12:24:10 am
Last updated: April 03, 2020, 05:11 GMT => U.S. COVID-19 deaths @6095
(https://i.imgur.com/lFwXJyz.png)

Doctors And Nurses Say More People Are Dying Of COVID-19 In The US Than We Know (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nidhiprakash/coronavirus-update-dead-covid19-doctors-hospitals)

Quote
Doctors and nurses working in several hospitals around the country, who spoke with BuzzFeed News on the condition of not being named out of fear of repercussions, said that the official counts of COVID-19 related deaths are not comprehensive for three main reasons: a lack of tests and protective equipment means not everyone who contracted or dies of COVID-19 is diagnosed; overwhelmed hospitals may be running behind on reporting the numbers to state and county authorities; and some hospitals reporting their totals on a daily basis say they’re not being reflected promptly in county and state reports.

example: extract of the past weeks Illinois Cook County Medical Examiner's website (~5 million population; includes city of Chicago) => a noticeable increase in deaths by "pneumonia" and "acute respiratory distress"... that may or may not be deaths related to COVID-19:
(https://i.imgur.com/bpNdKP4.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 03, 2020, 12:28:46 am
I'm getting the feeling we're going to be on lockdown for a very long time and they're trying to break us gently with these warnings of being prepared for a few months and 'the next two weeks' are the big tests. 

I started off trying to keep my spirits up, but I think I'm starting to crack and it's only week 3 (or 4?).  I don't know how I can go on like this for 4-6 more months.

Mental health issues aside, what kind of a world are we going to step back into if this goes on for a year or so?  How are governments going to survive the economic impact and what are we going to do with 25% unemployment rate?

What if life as we know it is totally over? 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 12:31:06 am
Boston Globe - Editorial Board:

A president unfit for a pandemic - Much of the suffering and death coming was preventable. The president has blood on his hands. (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/03/30/opinion/president-unfit-pandemic/)

Quote
While the spread of the novel coronavirus has been aggressive around the world, much of the profound impact it will have here in the United States was preventable. As the American public braces itself for the worst of this crisis, it’s worth remembering that the reach of the virus here is not attributable to an act of God or a foreign invasion, but a colossal failure of leadership.
.
.
It’s not too much for Americans to ask of their leaders that they be competent and informed when responding to a crisis of historic proportions. Instead, they have a White House marred by corruption and incompetence, whose mixed messages roil the markets and rock their sense of security. Instead of compassion and clarity, the president, in his near-daily addresses to the nation, embodies callousness, self-concern, and a lack of compass. Dangling unverified cures and possible quarantines in front of the public like reality TV cliffhangers, he unsettles rather than reassures. The pandemic reveals that the worst features of this presidency are not merely late-night comedy fodder; they come at the cost of lives, livelihoods, and our collective psyche.

Many pivotal decision points in this crisis are past us, but more are still to come. For our own sake, every American should be hoping for a miraculous turnaround — and that the too-little, too-late strategy of the White House task force will henceforth at least prevent contagion and economic ruin of the grandest scale. But come November, there must be a reckoning for the lives lost, and for the vast, avoidable suffering about to ensue under the president’s watch.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on April 03, 2020, 09:38:12 am
Wondering ...
https://www.salon.com/2020/04/01/study-republican-governors-slower-to-adopt-coronavirus-restrictions-causing-significant-harm/

"Our findings are unambiguous: political variables are the strongest predictor of the early adoption of social distancing policies," the researchers wrote. "All else equal, states with Republican governors and Republican electorates delayed each social distancing measure by an average of 2.70 days ... a far larger effect than any other factor, including state income per capita, the percentage of neighboring states with mandates, or even confirmed cases in each state."
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 10:18:14 am
https://i.imgur.com/FbiJH4z.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 10:44:47 am
(https://i.imgur.com/Qo7LCYh.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 03, 2020, 10:52:41 am
Wow.  That's epic incompetence.

I am actually stunned at the incompetence.  This is an existential threat and this person didn't know.  Politics is broken for sure.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 03, 2020, 11:18:59 am
I am actually stunned at the incompetence.  This is an existential threat and this person didn't know.  Politics is broken for sure.

Politics isn't broken, he's just willfully ignorant.  He could have learned that by talking and listening to any health professional that advises him.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 11:33:03 am
3M faces pressure from Trump order to stop exporting N95 masks to Canada (https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/3m-n95-masks-1.5520326) --- Company warns that stopping mask export could prompt retaliatory measures that would hurt U.S.

(https://i.imgur.com/TTUTO2J.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 11:36:39 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9Vzb6R_58
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 11:59:05 am
As much as I give JT credit for sounding like a leader at the beginning of this thing, his daily briefings have become an hour long nothing burger. Lots of "we are looking at" and "we are discussing" etc but no specifics on anything other than how much more they are going to spend each day. Other than deploying the military to northern Quebec at Quebec's request, his big thing today was an agreement with Amazon to distribute medical supplies. What medical supples, how much and where they are coming from is never mentioned.  I think I will pass on watching them in future and just wait for the news.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 02:14:45 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9Vzb6R_58

One of the best movies ever. Good advice but not easy at times.
It will all come down to how each of us handle this as individuals.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 02:28:43 pm
I knew I had some respirator masks in my shop somewhere that I had bought for spray painting a few years ago. I found two that were unused and shocked to see that they are N95's. I bought them at some home improvement store or Canadian Tire, can't remember which. Now I don't know if I want to wear them in public for fear of people getting on my case. They are also quite uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 03, 2020, 04:24:00 pm
What should Canada’s response be to the USA not allowing 3M to export PPEs? 

This will cost Canadian lives.

Personally, I think it will be a medium-long term distancing.  If we can retaliate immediately by withholding medical devices/aid, etc then we should.  If this gets a lot worse in the USA and peters out in Canada (assuming we took earlier precautions, which I think we did), we should not send medical equipment OR personnel there to help.

The medical professionals who commute across the border (Windsor-Detroit) should not be allowed to cross the border to go to their jobs. 

Longer term, Canada needs to work on distancing from the USofA....  pull out of NORAD, for instance. 

Next time America has a 9/11 type incident, we need to remember how we were treated by our supposed ally during this pandemic.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 04:45:26 pm
What should Canada’s response be to the USA not allowing 3M to export PPEs? 

This will cost Canadian lives.

Personally, I think it will be a medium-long term distancing.  If we can retaliate immediately by withholding medical devices/aid, etc then we should.  If this gets a lot worse in the USA and peters out in Canada (assuming we took earlier precautions, which I think we did), we should not send medical equipment OR personnel there to help.

The medical professionals who commute across the border (Windsor-Detroit) should not be allowed to cross the border to go to their jobs. 

Longer term, Canada needs to work on distancing from the USofA....  pull out of NORAD, for instance. 

Next time America has a 9/11 type incident, we need to remember how we were treated by our supposed ally during this pandemic.

Thoughts?

I think Trudeau is right to attempt diplomacy first, I don‘t think knee jerk retaliation would be positive at this point. However, it Trump is persistent we should retaliate in a fashion that will hurt them. We also need to re evaluate our relationship with the US.

On the other hand, is our manufacturing ability deteriorated to a point where we can’t spool up to make something as simple as disposable masks? It just points out the Achilles heel of countries which rely on a resource and service economy. When the time comes they have to stand on their own, they are no longer able.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 03, 2020, 04:58:07 pm
I think Trudeau is right to attempt diplomacy first, I don‘t think knee jerk retaliation would be positive at this point. However, it Trump is persistent we should retaliate in a fashion that will hurt them. We also need to re evaluate our relationship with the US.

Of course diplomacy should come first.  As I said, this would be in response to the USA actually denying the masks to Canada. 

Quote
On the other hand, is our manufacturing ability deteriorated to a point where we can’t spool up to make something as simple as disposable masks? It just points out the Achilles heel of countries which rely on a resource and service economy. When the time comes they have to stand on their own, they are no longer able.

No, it shows how integrated our economies are, and this has served companies very well.  3M has a plant in the USA, that takes Canadian raw materials and then makes masks to send around the world.  The only deficiency with Canada is that it shows that we are too tied to the USA, who has become an unstable trading partner and cannot be relied upon any longer.

It doesn’t make sense for 3M to have a plant in both countries.  These masks are also patented.  No one else is allowed to make this particular mask.

Perhaps Canada should nationalize the manufacture of medical supplies...   but that’s a different issue altogether. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 05:23:56 pm
Of course diplomacy should come first.  As I said, this would be in response to the USA actually denying the masks to Canada. 

No, it shows how integrated our economies are, and this has served companies very well.  3M has a plant in the USA, that takes Canadian raw materials and then makes masks to send around the world.  The only deficiency with Canada is that it shows that we are too tied to the USA, who has become an unstable trading partner and cannot be relied upon any longer.

It doesn’t make sense for 3M to have a plant in both countries.  These masks are also patented.  No one else is allowed to make this particular mask.

Perhaps Canada should nationalize the manufacture of medical supplies...   but that’s a different issue altogether.

We need our own companies to have that capability. I posted a link where the Mercedes F1 team worked together with a hospital and reverse engineered CPAP machines to work as 1st stage ventilators. They did it in a week and are now pumping out 1000 a week. Six other teams are working on similar projects. Do we have no companies left with that kind of ability? A few days ago, Trudeau talked about three thousand Canadian companies have been contacted to help but he hasn’t named one of them, what they are working on, or a timeline. Like I said, we are getting a lot of talk but no details. That can only go on for so long before people stop listening.

Yes we are too tied to a US which has become an unreliable partner.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 08:05:03 pm
the hands of Trump/Kushner are all over this:  US accused of 'modern piracy' after diversion of masks meant for Europe (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/mask-wars-coronavirus-outbidding-demand)

Quote
About 200,000 N95 masks were diverted to the US as they were being transferred between planes in Thailand, according to the Berlin authorities who said they had ordered the masks for the police force.

Andreas Geisel, the interior minister for Berlin state, described the diversion as “an act of modern piracy” and appealed to the German government to demand Washington conform to international trading rules. “This is no way to treat trans-Atlantic partners,” Geisel said. “Even in times of global crisis there should be no wild west methods.”

ya ya, allegedly!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 08:13:09 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/biIytUO.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 08:16:53 pm
Trump is turning the US into an international pariah. He is destroying the US brand single handedly.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2020, 08:17:14 pm
https://i.imgur.com/mhraoTb.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 03, 2020, 08:25:45 pm
Trump is turning the US into an international pariah. He is destroying the US brand single handedly.

I disagree....   I can guarantee you that Republicans will be all for this measure.  Trump is a symptom of the Republican Party disease.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: JMT on April 03, 2020, 08:40:36 pm
As much as I give JT credit for sounding like a leader at the beginning of this thing, his daily briefings have become an hour long nothing burger. Lots of "we are looking at" and "we are discussing" etc but no specifics on anything other than how much more they are going to spend each day. Other than deploying the military to northern Quebec at Quebec's request, his big thing today was an agreement with Amazon to distribute medical supplies. What medical supples, how much and where they are coming from is never mentioned.

That generally comes later in the ministerial presser.  Trudeau is projecting calm.  He's good at it.  That's why he's out there every day.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 03, 2020, 08:50:01 pm
Politics isn't broken, he's just willfully ignorant.  He could have learned that by talking and listening to any health professional that advises him.

Politics is broken if we pick leaders like that.  "We", admittedly is not Georgia, but "we" are part of the west, NATO, etc.  If that is happening "we" would be better off going back to royalty, as at least the royal lineage will give us random benevolence occasionally.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 03, 2020, 08:51:49 pm
Trump is turning the US into an international pariah. He is destroying the US brand single handedly.

I never felt this way before but I do now.  It's one thing to elect this type of incompetent but to now approve of him in record numbers... We have to start mitigating this relationship.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 08:57:40 pm
I disagree....   I can guarantee you that Republicans will be all for this measure.  Trump is a symptom of the Republican Party disease.

The Republicans don't dictate how the rest of the world views Trump or the US.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 09:06:17 pm
Politics is broken if we pick leaders like that.  "We", admittedly is not Georgia, but "we" are part of the west, NATO, etc.  If that is happening "we" would be better off going back to royalty, as at least the royal lineage will give us random benevolence occasionally.
Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, UK etc. Constitutional monarchies are some of the best countries in the world to live in.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 09:08:34 pm
That generally comes later in the ministerial presser.  Trudeau is projecting calm.  He's good at it.  That's why he's out there every day.

But he isn't saying anything. It's the same old pablum mantra every day.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 03, 2020, 09:24:10 pm
I never felt this way before but I do now.  It's one thing to elect this type of incompetent but to now approve of him in record numbers... We have to start mitigating this relationship.

Trump's ignorance, and Republican ignorance in general during this virus, is starting to cost people lives.  Offensive twitter comments don't get me mad, in fact I laugh most of them off, but incompetence that costs lives gets me really mad.  Flashback to George W. Bush.  Hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake once again.

Americans tend to rally around a "war-time" POTUS.  It helped get George Bush re-elected.  For better or worse, they are the United States of America.  We don't have that kind of patriotism here, or the same kind of military-type thinking.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 03, 2020, 09:40:54 pm
But he isn't saying anything. It's the same old pablum mantra every day.

I watched him today, it's annoying when he deflects questions and does the double-speak, he won't answer some of the questions.  Some of them are dumb questions and I don't blame him, others I doubt he has the answers for which I don't blame him either since this stuff is moving quickly and there's no way he can know every detail on the spot spanning every department/agency (the ministers would be better to ask).  I just find the Q&A useless, but he needs to do it.  He's the face of gov't.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 03, 2020, 10:55:48 pm
  We don't have that kind of patriotism here, or the same kind of military-type thinking.

Sorry but rallying around the leader and patriotism isn't what's needed, especially when they are helpless egoists.

Ford and Trudeau are making this about health experts and response.  And Americans tend to be suspicious of institutions, so...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2020, 11:47:04 pm
I watched him today, it's annoying when he deflects questions and does the double-speak, he won't answer some of the questions.  Some of them are dumb questions and I don't blame him, others I doubt he has the answers for which I don't blame him either since this stuff is moving quickly and there's no way he can know every detail on the spot spanning every department/agency (the ministers would be better to ask).  I just find the Q&A useless, but he needs to do it.  He's the face of gov't.

If he doesn't really say anything during his update, it's no wonder he gets asked a lot of questions, but he doesn't say anything then either. Really, the only news we get is about what they are going to spend. Other than that, all the real info is coming from the provinces. I don't know that he is trying to mislead anyone but he isn't really informing them either. I've listened to him every morning but have learned very little. Bonnie Henry says more and gives straight answers to more questions in ten minutes than he does in an hour. Anyway, this was our last day of isolation so we will be out walking in the mornings instead of listening to JT.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 04, 2020, 12:37:18 am
I listened through the latest briefing from the WH today on this issue and if ever there was an abundance of evidence for section 4 of the 25th amendment to the US constitution, to be enacted for the benefit of the country it was demonstrated today. Trump contradicted himself so often and so blatantly it could only be due to his loss of any grip on reality. If it were merely his regular bullshit about how many people attended his inauguration etd., then we could all just laugh and open a beer. People's lives are at stake now, and a leader with at least some semblance of competence should be put in place.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 04, 2020, 11:02:21 am
(https://i.imgur.com/SB0D3I8.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 04, 2020, 11:53:13 am
the simpler times of Feb 25th - National Press Secretary for the 2020 Trump Campaign, Kayleigh McEnany... of course, Fox News:
https://i.imgur.com/aJxHULN.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 04, 2020, 12:37:23 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/qOLjXgI.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 04, 2020, 01:45:13 pm
April 3rd - yesterday! About Fn' time someone raised a warning about those... "experts"!

(https://i.imgur.com/E1jvfm7.png)

(looks like the Fox posse got the word to again emphasize the... Chinese labeling!)

waldo interpretive pro-tip: Fox News quoted "experts" clearly doesn't include real experts like manBoy... Jared Kushner!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 04, 2020, 02:06:20 pm
yup - online learning will make bigly inroads... the size of an endowment fund might make the difference in saving some 'brick & mortar' schools

Coronavirus Pushes Higher Education to the Brink (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-04/coronavirus-u-s-colleges-and-universities-reach-breaking-point) --- Long-simmering troubles at America’s colleges and universities are about to boil over, consuming debt-ridden schools and redefining the campus experience.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 04, 2020, 06:28:09 pm
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced that a bipartisan House committee will:
- investigate the federal response to the COVID-19 pandemic
- and ensure that congressional funding is spent wisely

in response, Trump pulls out the ole Witch Hunt chestnut! 

Quote from: azzhole Trump
It’s a witch hunt after witch hunt after witch hunt. And in the end, the people doing the witch hunt have been losing

meanwhile... the Republican-led Senate committee pressing forward with its investigation into former vice president Joe Biden’s son, Hunter... continues unabated with the full support and enthusiasm of Trump behind it - go figure!

of course, Trump acolytes and lapdogs are out in force against the committee to investigate the response to/funding of COVID-19:
https://i.imgur.com/JWGluHm.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 04, 2020, 07:43:27 pm
(looks like the Fox posse got the word to again emphasize the... Chinese labeling!)

While I am fully aware that the Republitards are doing this for narrative purposes (to make it something that "they" did to "us", to shift attention away from their own shoddy response) I don't think we should be in any rush to forget China's role in creating this disaster. 

Firstly we can thank China's prolific animal trafficking trade and the idiocy of "traditional Chinese medicine" for the fact that this virus ever came into contact with humans.

And secondly let's remember that China's early response to the outbreak was to jail people for saying that there was an outbreak. As much as we mock the Trump administration's handling of this, let's keep in mind that China's was 1000 times worse. They have a lot to answer for.

I think China should be paying reparations when this is over, especially to Italy and the other hardest-hit countries.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 04, 2020, 07:56:14 pm
I'm getting the feeling we're going to be on lockdown for a very long time and they're trying to break us gently with these warnings of being prepared for a few months and 'the next two weeks' are the big tests. 

I started off trying to keep my spirits up, but I think I'm starting to crack and it's only week 3 (or 4?).  I don't know how I can go on like this for 4-6 more months.

Mental health issues aside, what kind of a world are we going to step back into if this goes on for a year or so?  How are governments going to survive the economic impact and what are we going to do with 25% unemployment rate?

What if life as we know it is totally over?

People aren't going to tolerate this indefinitely. A few weeks? Sure. A couple of months, maybe. Indefinitely? Nope. Forever? Nope.  People will not stand for living like we're in a 1970's era Soviet bloc nation for the rest of their lives.

The vast majority of people who get this virus will be moderately inconvenienced (and I say this as one of the few who might be at greater risk, due to asthma and a congenital lung issue.)

It's unreasonable to ask the vast majority of the population, especially the young, to put their lives on hold for an extended period for the sake of the relative few who face serious danger from this virus.  It's not realistic to ask people to lose a year school over this, or lose a year of income, or keep businesses shuttered until 2021.

Eventually there will be a vaccine. Eventually herd immunity will keep "the curve" from rising above the healthcare system's capacity.  But if that doesn't happen within a reasonable timeline, people will stop tweeting #PlankTheCurve and start tweeting something like #RipTheBandaidOffQuick.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 04, 2020, 09:37:31 pm
I'm a homebody often and even I'm getting stir-crazy being at home.  I go for walks, I go for drives, but I'm getting bored. Only so much TV and internet I can consume.  I have to just start creating projects.  Thankfully the weather is only going to get warmer.

I feel for people stuck inside condos, apartments, and other small spaces.  I've lived in those spaces and it gets really tough when you don't go out or interact with people.  I can't see people continuing to isolate for months.  It will become a mental health issue.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 05, 2020, 12:29:19 am
People aren't going to tolerate this indefinitely. A few weeks? Sure. A couple of months, maybe. Indefinitely? Nope. Forever? Nope.  People will not stand for living like we're in a 1970's era Soviet bloc nation for the rest of their lives.

The vast majority of people who get this virus will be moderately inconvenienced (and I say this as one of the few who might be at greater risk, due to asthma and a congenital lung issue.)

It's unreasonable to ask the vast majority of the population, especially the young, to put their lives on hold for an extended period for the sake of the relative few who face serious danger from this virus.  It's not realistic to ask people to lose a year school over this, or lose a year of income, or keep businesses shuttered until 2021.

Eventually there will be a vaccine. Eventually herd immunity will keep "the curve" from rising above the healthcare system's capacity.  But if that doesn't happen within a reasonable timeline, people will stop tweeting #PlankTheCurve and start tweeting something like #RipTheBandaidOffQuick.

 -k

No, I know the lockdown won't be forever.  The life as we know it I was talking about was society. 

What if it takes many years (if not a decade or so) to recover economically? 

What if mutations make a vaccine impossible and it becomes an endemic? 

What if we never really go back to the days when of flying without a mask or going to a busy outdoor concert?

I was really down the day I wrote that post.  I don't always feel like that, but on my bad days I worry the effects will be much worse than we're willing to consider right now.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 05, 2020, 12:39:25 am
I'm a homebody often and even I'm getting stir-crazy being at home.  I go for walks, I go for drives, but I'm getting bored. Only so much TV and internet I can consume.  I have to just start creating projects.  Thankfully the weather is only going to get warmer.

I feel for people stuck inside condos, apartments, and other small spaces.  I've lived in those spaces and it gets really tough when you don't go out or interact with people.  I can't see people continuing to isolate for months.  It will become a mental health issue.

I have lived most of my adult life in apartments and I am thanking my lucky stars that in the midst of all this at least I have a nice backyard.  There are a lot of nice trails around me too which makes it easy to get out and stay socially isolated.  I agree totally. 


Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 05, 2020, 12:50:54 am
I'm with kimmy and especially on the subject of reparations from China.  The alien in my chest is stirring and pressure is rising but the prognosis for a longer decent life post surgery is good so grinding it out until a vaccine is available sounds okay to me.  How about those of us who are more vulnerable be allowed to wait it out in isolation with support charged to China's reparations? I grok the need to get on with the game but I shouldn't be forced to take a bigger risk for the team just because the team is impatient to get back into it. If they decide they can live with the risk that's their business but they don't get to decide it's my business too.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2020, 02:10:03 am
Firstly we can thank China's prolific animal trafficking trade and the idiocy of "traditional Chinese medicine" for the fact that this virus ever came into contact with humans.

citation request

And secondly let's remember that China's early response to the outbreak was to jail people for saying that there was an outbreak. As much as we mock the Trump administration's handling of this, let's keep in mind that China's was 1000 times worse. They have a lot to answer for.

I think China should be paying reparations when this is over, especially to Italy and the other hardest-hit countries.

no - on December 31 of last year, China alerted the World Health Organization of an outbreak of a novel strain of coronavirus (initially called SARS-CoV-2) - one causing sever illness. As I understand, it took China from 'mid-December' to that Dec 31 alert point to ascertain just what they were dealing with... as I read, shortly after the WHO was alerted, Chinese scientists sequenced the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made the data available to researchers worldwide. I understand the believed first occurrence in a human has been traced back to Dec 8th... with the number of confirmed cases on Dec 31 pegged at 266. But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized; however, member kimmy, let's read your account of how China, the nation, should be held accountable for information provided(or not) to other countries and the responses those countries took (or didn't take) - notwithstanding the respective preparedness of countries to any pandemic event.

now, as to the exact origin of the virus, as I understand that has not been determined and most likely never will be. What has been determined through analysis of the public genome sequence data is that the evolution of the virus has been determined to have originated through natural processes - natural evolution; i.e., "not made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered". To this point, related studies have pointed to the origination as either (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9):

=> the virus evolved to its current pathogenic state through natural selection in a non-human host and then jumped to humans. Given similarity to bat coronavirus, research has proposed bats as the most likely reservoir for COVID-19; however, as there are no documented cases of direct bat-human transmission, an intermediate host is believed to be involved between bats and humans.

OR

=> a non-pathogenic version of the virus jumped from an animal host into humans and then evolved to its current pathogenic state within the human population. In this circumstance, a coronavirus in armadillo-like mammals found in Asia and Africa has a similarity to the COVID-19 virus... in this case either directly from "an anteater type mammal directly to a human, or through intermediaries like civets or ferrets to a human.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2020, 02:25:55 am
The vast majority of people who get this virus will be moderately inconvenienced (and I say this as one of the few who might be at greater risk, due to asthma and a congenital lung issue.)

It's unreasonable to ask the vast majority of the population, especially the young, to put their lives on hold for an extended period for the sake of the relative few who face serious danger from this virus.  It's not realistic to ask people to lose a year school over this, or lose a year of income, or keep businesses shuttered until 2021.

geezaz! Educate yourself member kimmy!!! Many people have the virus and show no symptoms... at least initially, and even then some experience just mild reactions. But they're still carriers of the virus, and particularly so during the initial days of contacting it (see virus "shedding"). It's these asymptomatic "silent carriers" that may be... may be... driving the pandemic.

waldo protip: if you're out walking and you're approached by ignorant joggers, don't rely on the so-called 2 meter buffer. The breath of these mega-exhaling azzholes (particularly in groups of runners) has a significantly greater reach than 2 meters. (Assuming you're not wearing a mask) turn your back to them... hold your breath to allow "droplets" to sink to the ground. Even then - about the efficacy of face masks (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2):
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 09:26:28 am
Ripping the band aid off sounds catchy but if you do it too soon you just bleed more. So what happens when our medical system is completely overwhelmed after the bandaid is ripped off and half of our health care workers are infected. Doctors are dying from this too.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 05, 2020, 12:04:25 pm
But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized; however, member kimmy, let's read your account of how China, the nation, should be held accountable for information provided(or not) to other countries and the responses those countries took (or didn't take) - notwithstanding the respective preparedness of countries to any pandemic event.
This failure of accountability within China's government should be regarded as a crime against all humanity not just against Chinese citizens.

What's most lacking in humanity's preparedness towards anything that threatens us globally is the ability to get our governments under control. An even sneakier aspect of COVID-19's sneakiness is its ability to exploit our greatest weakness, sneaky governments run by sneaky exploitive politicians.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 12:08:55 pm
geezaz! Educate yourself member kimmy!!! Many people have the virus and show no symptoms... at least initially, and even then some experience just mild reactions. But they're still carriers of the virus, and particularly so during the initial days of contacting it (see virus "shedding"). It's these asymptomatic "silent carriers" that may be... may be... driving the pandemic.

waldo protip: if you're out walking and you're approached by ignorant joggers, don't rely on the so-called 2 meter buffer. The breath of these mega-exhaling azzholes (particularly in groups of runners) has a significantly greater reach than 2 meters. (Assuming you're not wearing a mask) turn your back to them... hold your breath to allow "droplets" to sink to the ground. Even then - about the efficacy of face masks (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2):

Ignorant joggers are much less dangerous than idiots who insist on having house parties.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 12:58:05 pm
Many of you may have heard of the Grouse Grind, well there is also an Abby Grind on Sumas Mtn. Now we are doing our morning walks again, we have noticed over twice as many cars parked at the base of the grind than we ever have in the past.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 05, 2020, 01:01:32 pm
Many of you may have heard of the Grouse Grind, well there is also an Abby Grind on Sumas Mtn. Now we are doing our morning walks again, we have noticed over twice as many cars parked at the base of the grind than we ever have in the past.

Call it in....


Here’s a graph separating the Province COVID rates.

(https://i.cbc.ca/1.5522250.1586031715!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/manitoba-logarithmic-covid19-april4.jpg)


https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5522224
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2020, 02:34:52 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/qOLjXgI.jpg)
https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1246145525428125696/vid/1280x720/QJYpw0Ba7ZapIaro.mp4 --- (https://i.imgur.com/plsDWUL.png)April 05, 2020, 19:28 GMT
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 02:36:30 pm
Call it in....


Here’s a graph separating the Province COVID rates.

(https://i.cbc.ca/1.5522250.1586031715!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_620/manitoba-logarithmic-covid19-april4.jpg)


https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5522224

Why call it in, it's miles of trails. People are going there so they can get out and stay separated. If you come across someone, just step off the trail until they pass by. We walk the dike that goes past it and have no trouble maintaining separation when we encounter people.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 05, 2020, 02:36:48 pm
This failure of accountability within China's government should be regarded as a crime against all humanity not just against Chinese citizens.

What's most lacking in humanity's preparedness towards anything that threatens us globally is the ability to get our governments under control. An even sneakier aspect of COVID-19's sneakiness is its ability to exploit our greatest weakness, sneaky governments run by sneaky exploitive politicians.

I think initially the Chinese government didn't realise the extent of the damage the virus could cause and tried to keep it under wraps, but once they did, they built hospitals and locked up the entire country.  They apologized to the whistleblower doctor and tried to warn the rest of us.

So many westerns countries were in denial and acted slowly even AFTER seeing what happened to China, is it really difficult to grasp that China was in denial in the early stages of the pandemic before much was known about the pathology of the virus?

Not to say they were totally innocent.  Covering up and lying about numbers is terrible, but a lot of the venom against them now is hindsight.  I don't really think anyone expected this to happen, and if they did, we are equally guilty of reacting terribly.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 02:39:41 pm
Today's data. It looks like BC may have flattened the curve, now it is a matter of maintaining and reversing it.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/coronavirustracker/

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 05, 2020, 02:48:30 pm
Today's data. It looks like BC may have flattened the curve, now it is a matter of maintaining and reversing it.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/coronavirustracker/

Oh wow, that's great.  I thought we would end up one of the hardest hit.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2020, 03:05:51 pm
Trump first plied his magic elixir back in mid-March... and was soundly criticized by medical experts/media for the lack of substantive data/research/results to support the claim he was parroting. But now Trump is further emboldened to, once again, tout the "wonders" of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine as COVID-19 treatment drugs!

(https://fivedotoh.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/img_1043.jpg)(https://media.salon.com/2017/06/trump-carnival-barker.jpg)

of course Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine are long-standing legitimate drugs used for treatment of malaria and certain inflammatory conditions... since Trump's snake-oil show it has been increasingly difficult for persons with lupus, with rheumatoid arthritis, etc., to fill their prescriptions given the idiocy of Trump worshipers capturing the market of available Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine

imagine the Annals of Internal Medicine printing something to counter carnivalBarkerTrump!

Use of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine During the COVID-19 Pandemic: What Every Clinician Should Know (https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764199/use-hydroxychloroquine-chloroquine-during-covid-19-pandemic-what-every-clinician)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 04:33:01 pm
The news ticker is saying a revue of federal purchase orders indicate government agencies waited till mid March to make bulk orders for needed medical supply’s. That’s bloody disappointing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 05, 2020, 04:49:09 pm
Why call it in, it's miles of trails. People are going there so they can get out and stay separated. If you come across someone, just step off the trail until they pass by. We walk the dike that goes past it and have no trouble maintaining separation when we encounter people.

Sorry, I thought you meant you thought it was a safety issue.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 05, 2020, 04:51:48 pm
The news ticker is saying a revue of federal purchase orders indicate government agencies waited till mid March to make bulk orders for needed medical supply’s. That’s bloody disappointing.

We’ll have to wait until this blows over before we can make judgements.

However, I am glad the gov’t is a minority as it will allow the opposition parties to get together to investigate it more thoroughly than if the Libs had a majority where they could shut down committees, which they are apt to do.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 05:00:50 pm
Sorry, I thought you meant you thought it was a safety issue.

No worries, It was just an observation, possibly related to social distancing and staying home.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 05:02:29 pm
We’ll have to wait until this blows over before we can make judgements.

However, I am glad the gov’t is a minority as it will allow the opposition parties to get together to investigate it more thoroughly than if the Libs had a majority where they could shut down committees, which they are apt to do.

I hope some of the provinces were more on the ball.

We might have to stop pointing fingers at Trump for being so unprepared. That would be really disappointing.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 05, 2020, 05:19:20 pm
I hope some of the provinces were more on the ball.

We might have to stop pointing fingers at Trump for being so unprepared. That would be really disappointing.

If our feds dropped the ball, we deserve to know....   and we can point fingers at both!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2020, 06:11:47 pm
The news ticker is saying a revue of federal purchase orders indicate government agencies waited till mid March to make bulk orders for needed medical supply’s. That’s bloody disappointing.
I hope some of the provinces were more on the ball. We might have to stop pointing fingers at Trump for being so unprepared. That would be really disappointing.

uhhh... didja try the google machine?

(https://i.imgur.com/g9zOksu.png)

of course this plays into previous Trump deflections - when called out on pissPoorFederalResponse, Trump threw shade at U.S. Governors... saying the U.S. federal government is just a back-up to the States. So, with no federal oversight, the U.S. States were left to fend for themselves - driving prices up as each State bid against other States, bid against other countries... and ultimately, actually ended up bidding against the federal government. Please member wilber - facts matter - yes?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 05, 2020, 06:52:08 pm
Trump first plied his magic elixir back in mid-March... and was soundly criticized by medical experts/media for the lack of substantive data/research/results to support the claim he was parroting. But now Trump is further emboldened to, once again, tout the "wonders" of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine as COVID-19 treatment drugs!

of course Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine are long-standing legitimate drugs used for treatment of malaria and certain inflammatory conditions... since Trump's snake-oil show it has been increasingly difficult for persons with lupus, with rheumatoid arthritis, etc., to fill their prescriptions given the idiocy of Trump worshipers capturing the market of available Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine

imagine the Annals of Internal Medicine printing something to counter carnivalBarkerTrump!

Use of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine During the COVID-19 Pandemic: What Every Clinician Should Know (https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764199/use-hydroxychloroquine-chloroquine-during-covid-19-pandemic-what-every-clinician)


Is there any doubt that he's invested in those companies and/or getting kickbacks?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 05, 2020, 06:54:54 pm
The ticker didn't specify what country or the original source but as it was on Global, I assumed it was Canada. I sure hope it was just the US.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2020, 07:09:42 pm
The ticker didn't specify what country or the original source but as it was on Global, I assumed it was Canada. I sure hope it was just the US.

the waldo... member wilber's gopher!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/4AZjjkr.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 05, 2020, 07:14:40 pm
uhhh..... buckle-up!

A tiger at the Bronx Zoo tested positive for COVID-19 after coming into contact with an asymptomatic caretaker --- USDA Statement on the Confirmation of COVID-19 in a Tiger in New York
(https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/newsroom/news/sa_by_date/sa-2020/ny-zoo-covid-19)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 06, 2020, 11:28:56 am
No, I know the lockdown won't be forever.  The life as we know it I was talking about was society. 

What if it takes many years (if not a decade or so) to recover economically? 

What if mutations make a vaccine impossible and it becomes an endemic? 

What if we never really go back to the days when of flying without a mask or going to a busy outdoor concert?

I was really down the day I wrote that post.  I don't always feel like that, but on my bad days I worry the effects will be much worse than we're willing to consider right now.

The economic after-effects of this are going to persist for years, long after the medical emergency is over.

Economically, this is going to be the worse thing we have seen in our lifetimes. Whole industries are shut down and will continue to be shut down for some time. The ripple effect of that will be felt by the rest of the economy.  There will be immense uncertainty, immense loss of consumer confidence, a huge decline in spending, and rampant unemployment.  Communities like Whistler and Jasper and Banff that rely heavily on tourism are going to be especially crushed by this, because the tourism industry as a whole is going to be completely fucked for years to come. (I'm grateful that I got to see Las Vegas in January, because it's not going to be the same for a long time, if ever.)

Our government, god bless them, has taken aggressive action to try to dampen that ripple effect, but government can only do so much. They they can't support the whole economy indefinitely. We can hope that the strong government economic action will keep this from spiraling out of control, but the effects are still going to be really, really bad in spite of their best efforts.

We're going to see huge numbers of bankruptcies and loan defaults and mortgage defaults. People who were strong credit risks when they received their mortgages or loans are going to be financially ruined. The banks themselves will be financially imperiled as a result.  This is going to be like a replay of the 2008 financial crisis, but on a much larger scale.

And what's especially worrying is that even if we as a country do everything right, our bungling neighbors to the south are going to be hit very hard by this, and since our economy is so interconnected with theirs, their economic woes are going to haunt us as well.

So many people are going to be ruined by this.  It's going to be heartbreaking.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 06, 2020, 11:46:09 am
(https://i.imgur.com/77pHjfi.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 06, 2020, 11:56:27 am
Americans are stopping medical supplies at the border...

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5523011

Quote
In a statement, Ford said that "delays in global shipments and recent restrictions at the U.S. border" have put a severe strain on the province's inventory.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 06, 2020, 12:02:53 pm
citation request

One doesn't need to google very hard to find scientific articles regarding the link between China's rampant animal trafficking trade and the spread of this virus to humans.  Here's a recent one:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52048195

Pangolins are the world's most trafficked animal, for two reasons: Rich assholes consider pangolin meat a luxury, and superstitious assholes think pangolin scales have magic powers. 

Many medical experts are now pointing their fingers at China's animal trafficking and live markets as an ongoing threat to human health.


no - on December 31 of last year, China alerted the World Health Organization of an outbreak of a novel strain of coronavirus (initially called SARS-CoV-2) - one causing sever illness. As I understand, it took China from 'mid-December' to that Dec 31 alert point to ascertain just what they were dealing with... as I read, shortly after the WHO was alerted, Chinese scientists sequenced the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made the data available to researchers worldwide. I understand the believed first occurrence in a human has been traced back to Dec 8th... with the number of confirmed cases on Dec 31 pegged at 266. But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized; however, member kimmy, let's read your account of how China, the nation, should be held accountable for information provided(or not) to other countries and the responses those countries took (or didn't take) - notwithstanding the respective preparedness of countries to any pandemic event.

How do you propose to separate China's failure to take action to contain the outbreak at home to their obligations to the international community?   Their actions in the early stages-- jailing doctors, suppressing information, arresting people for talking about it-- contributed to its spread in the early stages, including its spread beyond China's borders.


now, as to the exact origin of the virus, as I understand that has not been determined and most likely never will be. What has been determined through analysis of the public genome sequence data is that the evolution of the virus has been determined to have originated through natural processes - natural evolution; i.e., "not made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered". To this point, related studies have pointed to the origination as either (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9):

=> the virus evolved to its current pathogenic state through natural selection in a non-human host and then jumped to humans. Given similarity to bat coronavirus, research has proposed bats as the most likely reservoir for COVID-19; however, as there are no documented cases of direct bat-human transmission, an intermediate host is believed to be involved between bats and humans.

OR

=> a non-pathogenic version of the virus jumped from an animal host into humans and then evolved to its current pathogenic state within the human population. In this circumstance, a coronavirus in armadillo-like mammals found in Asia and Africa has a similarity to the COVID-19 virus... in this case either directly from "an anteater type mammal directly to a human, or through intermediaries like civets or ferrets to a human.

Yes, this outbreak evolved in wild animals, animals trafficked in huge numbers and smuggled in confined spaces, to maximize the chance of sharing virus among each other, then brought into contact with large numbers of humans at these live animal markets.  If you wanted to create conditions to make it likely for viruses to transfer from host animals to humans, how could you do better?

This isn't the first time Chinese wild animal trafficking has brought an infectious outbreak upon the world, as the SARS epidemic was conclusively linked to civets in China's markets  (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-sars/china-scientists-say-sars-civet-cat-link-proved-idUSPEK23793120061123)as well.  That didn't make people smarten up.  This one probably won't either.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 06, 2020, 12:07:57 pm
Americans are stopping medical supplies at the border...

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5523011


We should have a crown corporation for vital medical supplies. It's vital, it's an issue of national security, we clearly can't trust foreign countries anymore. Medical supplies, medical equipment, whatever it takes. Make it the supplier of preference for all Canadian hospitals to help make sure there's a sufficient volume of sales.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 06, 2020, 12:35:27 pm

We should have a crown corporation for vital medical supplies. It's vital, it's an issue of national security, we clearly can't trust foreign countries anymore. Medical supplies, medical equipment, whatever it takes. Make it the supplier of preference for all Canadian hospitals to help make sure there's a sufficient volume of sales.

 -k

We have become far too dependent on the US in particular. Wife went to renew a prescription today and could only get one month instead of the usual three. Pharmacies are worried about supply as so much of this stuff comes from the US. The manufacturer is a Danish company but it comes from their US operations.

Just another pitfall of basing your economy on resources and services at the expense of actually producing stuff.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 06, 2020, 01:07:40 pm
Firstly we can thank China's prolific animal trafficking trade and the idiocy of "traditional Chinese medicine" for the fact that this virus ever came into contact with humans.

so very definitive; hence the waldo's citation request... surely... member kimmy won't vacillate on her certainty - factual certainty, no less! Let's see now:

One doesn't need to google very hard to find scientific articles regarding the link between China's rampant animal trafficking trade and the spread of this virus to humans.  Here's a recent one: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52048195

from your own linked article: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

at this point your linked article's paper reference is one that has not yet been published - to allow it to enter into the peer-response cycle; a pre-release unedited manuscript has been offered by the Journal Nature. That being said, the paper/lead author state: "This outbreak has been tentatively associated with a seafood market in Wuhan, China, where the sale of wild animals may be the source of zoonotic infection2. Although bats are likely reservoir hosts for SARS-CoV-2, the identity of any intermediate host that might have facilitated transfer to humans is unknown."

member kimmy, so... definitive to support your, uhhh... factual certainty!  ;D

as the waldo stated:
no - on December 31 of last year, China alerted the World Health Organization of an outbreak of a novel strain of coronavirus (initially called SARS-CoV-2) - one causing sever illness. As I understand, it took China from 'mid-December' to that Dec 31 alert point to ascertain just what they were dealing with... as I read, shortly after the WHO was alerted, Chinese scientists sequenced the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made the data available to researchers worldwide. I understand the believed first occurrence in a human has been traced back to Dec 8th... with the number of confirmed cases on Dec 31 pegged at 266. But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized; however, member kimmy, let's read your account of how China, the nation, should be held accountable for information provided(or not) to other countries and the responses those countries took (or didn't take) - notwithstanding the respective preparedness of countries to any pandemic event.

now, as to the exact origin of the virus, as I understand that has not been determined and most likely never will be. What has been determined through analysis of the public genome sequence data is that the evolution of the virus has been determined to have originated through natural processes - natural evolution; i.e., "not made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered". To this point, related studies have pointed to the origination as either (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9):

=> the virus evolved to its current pathogenic state through natural selection in a non-human host and then jumped to humans. Given similarity to bat coronavirus, research has proposed bats as the most likely reservoir for COVID-19; however, as there are no documented cases of direct bat-human transmission, an intermediate host is believed to be involved between bats and humans.

OR

=> a non-pathogenic version of the virus jumped from an animal host into humans and then evolved to its current pathogenic state within the human population. In this circumstance, a coronavirus in armadillo-like mammals found in Asia and Africa has a similarity to the COVID-19 virus... in this case either directly from "an anteater type mammal directly to a human, or through intermediaries like civets or ferrets to a human.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 06, 2020, 03:13:50 pm
Boris Johnson now in ICU. I hope he recovers and the experience teaches him some humility.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 06, 2020, 03:30:30 pm
Boris Johnson now in ICU. I hope he recovers and the experience teaches him some humility.

I am very sad today for him and for all of those we are losing and have lost.  I am uncharacteristically emotional these days...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 06, 2020, 03:57:24 pm
no - on December 31 of last year, China alerted the World Health Organization of an outbreak of a novel strain of coronavirus (initially called SARS-CoV-2) - one causing sever illness. As I understand, it took China from 'mid-December' to that Dec 31 alert point to ascertain just what they were dealing with... as I read, shortly after the WHO was alerted, Chinese scientists sequenced the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made the data available to researchers worldwide. I understand the believed first occurrence in a human has been traced back to Dec 8th... with the number of confirmed cases on Dec 31 pegged at 266. But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized; however, member kimmy, let's read your account of how China, the nation, should be held accountable for information provided(or not) to other countries and the responses those countries took (or didn't take) - notwithstanding the respective preparedness of countries to any pandemic event.

How do you propose to separate China's failure to take action to contain the outbreak at home to their obligations to the international community?   Their actions in the early stages-- jailing doctors, suppressing information, arresting people for talking about it-- contributed to its spread in the early stages, including its spread beyond China's borders.

to separate... in your zeal to target China and in your clear parroting of Trumpist rhetoric so feverishly hellbent to deflect from the utter incompetence of Trump are you able to separate fact from wanton gibberish? Before bothering to give credence to your question, perhaps you could:
- identify said failure in actioning containment and provide metrics to support that failure, internally and beyond Chinese borders
- identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community, particularly in light of China's early notification to WHO and its sharing of the sequenced genome of SARS-CoV-2 with worldwide researchers
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 06, 2020, 10:33:55 pm
I was really down the day I wrote that post.  I don't always feel like that, but on my bad days I worry the effects will be much worse than we're willing to consider right now.
I think the best thing we all have going for us is that we're all in the same boat at the same time.  I'm pretty sure it would be worse for me if I was on my own. No pun intended.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 06, 2020, 11:13:58 pm
I think the best thing we all have going for us is that we're all in the same boat at the same time.  I'm pretty sure it would be worse for me if I was on my own. No pun intended.

It's funny, in the beginning I felt panicky about that but now I am actually pretty grateful for my space. 

I find living with others challenging in the best of times, yet alone 24/7.  Apparently divorce rates went up in China after their lockdown.  I can imagine why.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 06, 2020, 11:18:43 pm
Trump continues to turn the whole process of daily briefings on the issue into a complete shipwreck of a blatant reelection campaign. I feel sad for the experts i.e. Fauci and Birx who are forced to stand up behind him while he does all that. I noticed today he hijacked a form of a graph that Birx had recently presented on slides to try and show how "wonderfully well" his team had handled things since early on. In fact the graph actually showed how utterly slow/inefficient the testing has been under his guidance. I could certainly see quite clearly in Birx' eyes today she was utterly embarrassed to be there. What he is doing is nothing short of criminal IMO.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 06, 2020, 11:28:24 pm
The economic after-effects of this are going to persist for years, long after the medical emergency is over.

Economically, this is going to be the worse thing we have seen in our lifetimes. Whole industries are shut down and will continue to be shut down for some time. The ripple effect of that will be felt by the rest of the economy.  There will be immense uncertainty, immense loss of consumer confidence, a huge decline in spending, and rampant unemployment.  Communities like Whistler and Jasper and Banff that rely heavily on tourism are going to be especially crushed by this, because the tourism industry as a whole is going to be completely **** for years to come. (I'm grateful that I got to see Las Vegas in January, because it's not going to be the same for a long time, if ever.)

Our government, god bless them, has taken aggressive action to try to dampen that ripple effect, but government can only do so much. They they can't support the whole economy indefinitely. We can hope that the strong government economic action will keep this from spiraling out of control, but the effects are still going to be really, really bad in spite of their best efforts.

We're going to see huge numbers of bankruptcies and loan defaults and mortgage defaults. People who were strong credit risks when they received their mortgages or loans are going to be financially ruined. The banks themselves will be financially imperiled as a result.  This is going to be like a replay of the 2008 financial crisis, but on a much larger scale.

And what's especially worrying is that even if we as a country do everything right, our bungling neighbors to the south are going to be hit very hard by this, and since our economy is so interconnected with theirs, their economic woes are going to haunt us as well.

So many people are going to be ruined by this.  It's going to be heartbreaking.

 -k
It'll be bad alright and a lot worse if banks just throw everyone out in the street. If there's no one to buy the places people are thrown out of do the banks just let these places rot and fall to ruin? That said I'd be inclined to rip up the septic system, salt the well and burn the place to the ground if they figure on passing their loss to Ottawa then selling everything to Jimmy Pattison or someone for a $1 an acre.

Have a little faith, if there's anything we're experts at it's kicking big economic cans down the road. It's not like the Bogladite battle fleet is closing in on Earth saying pay up or else.

In any case if it really is the Zombie Apocalypse BC is probably in one of the best places from which to recover from it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 07, 2020, 12:08:17 am
It's funny, in the beginning I felt panicky about that but now I am actually pretty grateful for my space. 

I was thinking more about feeling panicky over economic loneliness. When people go bankrupt or fail at a rate that's more like people dying at a natural rate we hardly notice and carry on but in this case I guess I'm grateful its just not me. Even the most hard-boiled coupon-clipping skinflint is going to be challenged in times like these.

Quote
I find living with others challenging in the best of times, yet alone 24/7.  Apparently divorce rates went up in China after their lockdown.  I can imagine why.
Interestingly enough my wife and I live separately on the same property. She's in the big house and I'm out back above the shop. A few friends thought it was a little unconventional and while we're trying to work things out we're in no particular hurry, especially these days.

Apparently I'm the better cook so sometimes I feel like the maid in that Neil Young song..."Someone to cook the dinner, do the dishes and go away"...or something like that.

We should probably do a Youtube video.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 07, 2020, 12:24:27 am
I was thinking more about feeling panicky over economic loneliness. When people go bankrupt or fail at a rate that's more like people dying at a natural rate we hardly notice and carry on but in this case I guess I'm grateful its just not me. Even the most hard-boiled coupon-clipping skinflint is going to be challenged in times like these.


Interestingly enough my wife and I live separately on the same property. She's in the big house and I'm out back above the shop. A few friends thought it was a little unconventional and while we're trying to work things out we're in no particular hurry, especially these days.

Apparently I'm the better cook so sometimes I feel like the maid in that Neil Young song..."Someone to cook the dinner, do the dishes and go away"...or something like that.

We should probably do a Youtube video.

Your living arrangement sounds fantastic.  <3

Fortunately I'm still employed, and reasonably safe in my job.  Even if I weren't I have the capacity to survive 18 months without a job.

My biggest worry in all this is my parents.  I would be devastated if I lost them.

Second biggest worry is leaving my children motherless.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 07, 2020, 01:10:27 am
Firstly we can thank China's prolific animal trafficking trade and the idiocy of "traditional Chinese medicine" for the fact that this virus ever came into contact with humans.

so very definitive; hence the waldo's citation request... surely... member kimmy won't vacillate on her certainty - factual certainty, no less! Let's see now:

One doesn't need to google very hard to find scientific articles regarding the link between China's rampant animal trafficking trade and the spread of this virus to humans.  Here's a recent one:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52048195

Many medical experts are now pointing their fingers at China's animal trafficking and live markets as an ongoing threat to human health.

Yes, this outbreak evolved in wild animals, animals trafficked in huge numbers and smuggled in confined spaces, to maximize the chance of sharing virus among each other, then brought into contact with large numbers of humans at these live animal markets.  If you wanted to create conditions to make it likely for viruses to transfer from host animals to humans, how could you do better?

from your own linked article: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

at this point your linked article's paper reference is one that has not yet been published - to allow it to enter into the peer-response cycle; a pre-release unedited manuscript has been offered by the Journal Nature. That being said, the paper/lead author state: "This outbreak has been tentatively associated with a seafood market in Wuhan, China, where the sale of wild animals may be the source of zoonotic infection2. Although bats are likely reservoir hosts for SARS-CoV-2, the identity of any intermediate host that might have facilitated transfer to humans is unknown."

member kimmy, so... definitive to support your, uhhh... factual certainty!  ;D

and most certainly, there is no scientific based consensus that the virus originated at a Wuhan so-called 'wet market'; in particular, study analysis (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673620301835?via%3Dihub) shows that some of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market. Most pointedly, study analysis shows that about a third of the first 41 confirmed infected patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market... among them the first known patients where, in addition, "no epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases":
(https://i.imgur.com/XBk829H.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 07, 2020, 01:25:53 am
such a moron! Thank the networks for continuing to cover this daily clown show; here Trump has dispatched America's shining pharmaceutical companies to save Boris Johnson!
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1247285814570160129/pu/vid/1280x720/PugJvONuy0RXsI-n.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 07, 2020, 01:35:54 am
(also from today's T-Force briefing) Trump dismisses a most critical report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services' Office of Inspector General - a report which details challenges facing hospitals in responding to the COVID-19 pandemic, including shortages of supplies and equipment, as well as prolonged wait times to get testing results... the report was independently launched by the HHS OIG and based on interviews conducted between March 23 and 27 with administrators at more than 300 hospitals across 46 states, Puerto Rico and Washington, DC
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1247291064307912704/pu/vid/1280x720/AXoNHB0FQKNzeC8h.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on April 07, 2020, 04:15:32 am
Meanwhile in Alberta ... Cabinet Ministers can now write new laws without consulting anyone:

https://www.jccf.ca/alberta-government-gives-itself-sweeping-new-powers-to-create-new-laws-without-legislative-assembly-approval/

Alberta government gives itself sweeping new powers to create new laws without Legislative Assembly approval
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 07, 2020, 09:07:14 am
Seems to be happening. Hope so.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-ontario-quebec-covid-19-1.5524056
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 07, 2020, 09:32:27 am
Seems to be happening. Hope so.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-ontario-quebec-covid-19-1.5524056

Fingers are crossed
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 07, 2020, 12:42:31 pm
Seems to be happening. Hope so.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-ontario-quebec-covid-19-1.5524056
Thanks everyone, I'm counting on you and you all deserve a pat on the back...just reach around and do that yourselves though.

The different approach's taken towards Spring Break stand out.  I attribute a lot of our local success to our small hospital and chief doctor's appeals to shut down right on the cusp of Spring Break. We have an older 10 bed hospital, 1 ventilator and on an average day our emergency room's caseload is 50% tourists. It reinforced to the point of supplanting the message coming or not coming from more distant appeals. We shut everything down and went on the Mother-of-All Spring Breaks ourselves instead.  It'll hurt but nowhere near as much as it could have.

I think a little of the good luck cited by the story you posted should be attributed to us.  It seems to me the more attention a population gives to local health authorities as opposed to putting more or all your stock in distant provincial or national authorities for advise the better the outcome.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 07, 2020, 08:41:49 pm
Wonder how JBG is doing, he is from New York. Hope he checks in some time.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 08, 2020, 01:24:52 am
Meanwhile in Alberta ... Cabinet Ministers can now write new laws without consulting anyone:

https://www.jccf.ca/alberta-government-gives-itself-sweeping-new-powers-to-create-new-laws-without-legislative-assembly-approval/

Alberta government gives itself sweeping new powers to create new laws without Legislative Assembly approval

how did ole Spectre miss this assault on democracy? Oh wait... by a Conservative government... nothing to see here hey Spec - carry on!  ;D

What games?  Defending our democracy from a government that wants sweeping new powers to bypass Parliament? 

Turn this around and pretend Harper was doing this.  What would be your reaction.  You wouldn't call it "games".  Your thinking has become very dangerous.
Imagine if Trump was asking for emergency powers to bypass Congress.  You'd be freaking out.  As you should.  Hypocrites, the lot of you.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 08, 2020, 01:27:36 am
how did ole Spectre miss this assault on democracy? Oh wait... by a Conservative government... nothing to see here hey Spec - carry on!  ;D

CovidiotGraham is also a free market capitalist....  until things get bad.  Then he’s a socialist.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 08, 2020, 01:29:00 am
Trump first plied his magic elixir back in mid-March... and was soundly criticized by medical experts/media for the lack of substantive data/research/results to support the claim he was parroting. But now Trump is further emboldened to, once again, tout the "wonders" of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine as COVID-19 treatment drugs!

(https://fivedotoh.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/img_1043.jpg)(https://media.salon.com/2017/06/trump-carnival-barker.jpg)

of course Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine are long-standing legitimate drugs used for treatment of malaria and certain inflammatory conditions... since Trump's snake-oil show it has been increasingly difficult for persons with lupus, with rheumatoid arthritis, etc., to fill their prescriptions given the idiocy of Trump worshipers capturing the market of available Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine

imagine the Annals of Internal Medicine printing something to counter carnivalBarkerTrump!

Use of Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine During the COVID-19 Pandemic: What Every Clinician Should Know (https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764199/use-hydroxychloroquine-chloroquine-during-covid-19-pandemic-what-every-clinician)
Is there any doubt that he's invested in those companies and/or getting kickbacks?
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1246964229611180032/pu/vid/1280x720/YG_Cjtc2lxmvzMTQ.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 11:30:33 am
CovidiotGraham is also a free market capitalist....  until things get bad.  Then he’s a socialist.

Squidiot is also a...squidiot!

I'm a capitalist who supports a strong social safety net.  That's what Canada is and has been for a long time.  Try again squidiot.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 11:32:37 am
how did ole Spectre miss this assault on democracy? Oh wait... by a Conservative government... nothing to see here hey Spec - carry on!  ;D

It came into effect on April 2 and does not contain any sunset clauses or provisions, meaning that this power remains in the hands of the government as long as a public health emergency is declared.

As you know, I fully approve of no sunset clauses!  My secret plan for conservative governments to claim tyrannical power and take over the world is working!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 09:32:30 pm
to separate... in your zeal to target China and in your clear parroting of Trumpist rhetoric so feverishly hellbent to deflect from the utter incompetence of Trump are you able to separate fact from wanton gibberish?

Is that what this is about? You're worried that if people point out China's negligence in allowing this to spread, they'll forget about Trump's incompetence?  No need to worry. There's plenty of blame to go around.  Certainly, continue pointing out what a colossal idiot Trump is, but don't forget to look at where this all started.

Before bothering to give credence to your question, perhaps you could:
- identify said failure in actioning containment and provide metrics to support that failure, internally and beyond Chinese borders
- identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community, particularly in light of China's early notification to WHO and its sharing of the sequenced genome of SARS-CoV-2 with worldwide researchers

You sound like you're trying to become the new John McCallum.  With your praise for their Dec 31 call to the WHO alerting them to a novel SARS coronavirus, and their efforts in sequencing the virus genome, you make it sound like they're heroes in all this. I can only imagine that soon you'll be recommending Huawei phones.

But here's the rub...

But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized;


That's putting it rather mildly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51364382

Dr Li, now dead from COVID-19, was attempting to share his findings with other doctors, only to be threatened and silenced by Chinese security authorities. If China did, as you say, contact the WHO on Dec 31, their efforts to silence Dr Li (and others) and to cover up the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan continued WELL AFTER they already knew they had a SARS outbreak underway.  That's clearly negligent, and while you might suggest that's an internal issue for China, that just isn't so. They have no way of knowing how many international travelers came and left from Wuhan during the time they were attempting to Baghdad Bob the SARS outbreak that they-- according to information you've provided-- already knew was underway.

And no, I don't want a Huawei, Mr McCallum.

-k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 11:09:32 pm
so very definitive; hence the waldo's citation request... surely... member kimmy won't vacillate on her certainty - factual certainty, no less! Let's see now:

from your own linked article: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

at this point your linked article's paper reference is one that has not yet been published - to allow it to enter into the peer-response cycle; a pre-release unedited manuscript has been offered by the Journal Nature. That being said, the paper/lead author state: "This outbreak has been tentatively associated with a seafood market in Wuhan, China, where the sale of wild animals may be the source of zoonotic infection2. Although bats are likely reservoir hosts for SARS-CoV-2, the identity of any intermediate host that might have facilitated transfer to humans is unknown."

member kimmy, so... definitive to support your, uhhh... factual certainty!  ;D


If I acknowledge that it is not yet an established fact that the COVID-19 animal-to-human transfer resulted from China's animal trafficking trade, will you acknowledge that it's by far the most likely probability?

The experts have been looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market, and for good reason.  Animal trafficking creates ideal conditions for animal to human transfer. It's how the 2003 SARS outbreak originated (trafficked civets-- that WAS conclusively proven), and if it didn't cause the current outbreak, it'll cause a different outbreak in the future.  Animal trafficking is a clear and ongoing threat to human health.  It took 4 years to conclusively prove that the 2003 SARS epidemic was linked to animal trafficking. It's unreasonable to suggest that we shouldn't worry about animal trafficking until such time as we know for certain that it's linked to COVID-19.

People are not wrong in pointing out that there could be some other explanation.  It's not impossible that some chance encounter with a wild animal was where humans first contacted the virus... it's just extremely improbable.   Maybe some hapless farmer was minding his own business and he just got jumped by some pangolins. Maybe it was the Teenage Mutant Ninja Pangolins.  Who knows. We can't conclusively say that didn't happen.  But given the odds of that vs the odds that one of the tens of thousands of trafficked pangolins spread the virus to thousands of other trafficked pangolins, which then spread the virus to some of the thousands of humans who they came into proximity with, either at the market or during the trafficking process... you'd have to be an idiot to put your money on the wildlife scenario.


I'm also confused as to why you're lawyering on behalf of animal trafficking and the "traditional Chinese medicine" trade that is the major driver of animal trafficking in China.   They're scum. They're vermin.   They don't need lawyering, they need a good hard kick in the nuts.

TCM practitioners and associated animal trafficking are guilty of:
 -peddling quack medicine
 -driving some animals to the brink of extinction
 -disgusting acts of sadism and cruelty
 -unleashing SARS, 2003 version
 -most likely unleashing SARS the 2020 version
And they'll most certainly unleash some future plague, unless they're stomped out.

Why would you want to take up for people like that?


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 08, 2020, 11:11:56 pm
My secret plan for conservative governments to claim tyrannical power and take over the world is working!
How is that possible when it's my secret plan that's working?

And don't ask what that is because its a secret.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 08, 2020, 11:13:28 pm
Is that what this is about? You're worried that if people point out China's negligence in allowing this to spread, they'll forget about Trump's incompetence?  No need to worry. There's plenty of blame to go around.  Certainly, continue pointing out what a colossal idiot Trump is, but don't forget to look at where this all started.

I don't think it's about forgetting Trump's incompetence.  It's that if we deem China negligent, we have to deem Trump negligent too for saying a mere few weeks ago that it's all a hoax while people were dying all over the world.  And what about Boris Johnson, should he be held accountable for British deaths for promoting the herd immunity theory at first?  And if those two are negligent, what's to stop me from saying Bonnie Henry's decisions were too slow,  she should've declared emergency and shut the borders right away?

Pandemics happen and they've started in all corners of the world.  Spanish flu likely started in Kansas from a pig farm.  Societies that eat and live close to animals will always have zoonotic diseases.
 
I certainly wish China had believed the doctors and acted differently, but I think the same about Trump and Boris Johnson as well. 

Sure, Trump and Johnson didn't lock up doctors, but the argument can be made that they made their choices when there was ample evidence of a novel coronavirus whereas China at least had the benefit of doubt.

Ultimately, I don't think suing any of the covidiot government accomplishes anything.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 11:20:35 pm
Seems to be happening. Hope so.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-ontario-quebec-covid-19-1.5524056

That's good news, I suppose, but does it matter?  Life isn't returning to normal for the foreseeable future.  Regardless of what that graph looks like, we aren't any closer to getting back to our lives. From what I've read, all the models say that as soon as social distancing relaxes, there are rebound outbreaks that put us right back at square one.   

Do we ever get our lives back? 

Maybe in fall 2020?  Maybe spring 2021?  Maybe someday, if they find a vaccine or effective treatment?  Maybe never?

I'm completely sick of this dystopian future we're stuck in and it hasn't even been a month yet.  That there's no foreseeable end to this makes me sick to my core.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 11:25:23 pm
That's good news, I suppose, but does it matter?  Life isn't returning to normal for the foreseeable future.  Regardless of what that graph looks like, we aren't any closer to getting back to our lives. From what I've read, all the models say that as soon as social distancing relaxes, there are rebound outbreaks that put us right back at square one.   

Do we ever get our lives back? 

Maybe in fall 2020?  Maybe spring 2021?  Maybe someday, if they find a vaccine or effective treatment?  Maybe never?

I'm completely sick of this dystopian future we're stuck in and it hasn't even been a month yet.  That there's no foreseeable end to this makes me sick to my core.

I think we're fucked until we all get vaccinated.  Better plan some home projects.

To keep things positive, things could be much, much, much worse than being stuck at home watching TV.  My grandparents had to deal with the Great Depression and then WWII.  I prefer this to storming Juno beach.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 08, 2020, 11:39:19 pm
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.  Better plan some home projects.

To keep things positive, things could be much, much, much worse than being stuck at home watching TV.  My grandparents had to deal with the Great Depression and then WWII.  I prefer this to storming Juno beach.

Early in the lockdown I read somewhere about how we complain compared to what Anne Frank and her family had to endure and every time I want to beg COVID to put me out of my misery already (which is several times a day), I try and gain some perspective.

Forget comparing yourself to 80 years ago, even 15 years ago we couldn't do a lot of what we're doing now with telecommuting and facetime. 

Tomorrow I'm going to a virtual happy hour.  Talk about glamping.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 11:42:32 pm
Early in the lockdown I read somewhere about how we complain compared to what Anne Frank and her family had to endure and every time I want to beg COVID to put me out of my misery already (which is several times a day), I try and gain some perspective.

Forget comparing yourself to 80 years ago, even 15 years ago we couldn't do a lot of what we're doing now with telecommuting and facetime. 

Tomorrow I'm going to a virtual happy hour.  Talk about glamping.

It's pretty cool that we can have a virtual group facetime with anybody in the world at any time for basically free.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 08, 2020, 11:43:17 pm
and most certainly, there is no scientific based consensus that the virus originated at a Wuhan so-called 'wet market'; in particular, study analysis (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673620301835?via%3Dihub) shows that some of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market. Most pointedly, study analysis shows that about a third of the first 41 confirmed infected patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market... among them the first known patients where, in addition, "no epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases":
(https://i.imgur.com/XBk829H.png)

If I acknowledge that it is not yet an established fact that the COVID-19 animal-to-human transfer resulted from China's animal trafficking trade, will you acknowledge that it's by far the most likely probability?

The experts have been looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market, and for good reason.

you claimed a factual certainty... and your own linked article cautioned against your zeal: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

you're not the grandMysteryHuntingMaven you aspire to; you have a most circumspect history of preferring "alternative facts", particularly those that you find a way to craft to your self-serving agenda. You speak of "experts looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market"... for good reason you say. But somehow, you manage to ignore the study I referenced and the data/graphic that; again:
Quote
shows that some of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market. Most pointedly, study analysis shows that about a third of the first 41 confirmed infected patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market... among them the first known patients where, in addition, "no epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases":

as for your questioned likelihood, as I read/infer, it's likely an intermediary animal brought the virus into the market... and without any known historical direct linkages between bats and humans, it's just as likely that the intermediary animal might be a domestic animal bitten by a bat... a domestic animal brought into the market for sale.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 11:44:23 pm
It's that if we deem China negligent, we have to deem Trump negligent too for saying a mere few weeks ago that it's all a hoax

Certainly.  Would anybody here disagree that it was dangerous and reckless for Trump (and others) to be spreading misinformation?

I've heard that Washington state is suing Fox News for spreading misinformation.  While we probably can't haul China into a courtroom, I think some contrition (and compensation) for their behavior should be part of the discussion for renewing international relationships with them.

what's to stop me from saying Bonnie Henry's decisions were too slow,  she should've declared emergency and shut the borders right away?

I'm skeptical that Bonnie Henry has the power to close the borders. That decision had to be made in Ottawa-- and whether our government did so soon enough was hotly debated at the time (and will no doubt be second-guessed in hindsight).   But questioning whether they made the best decision with the information they had is a lot different from deliberately spreading misinformation, or suppressing information.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 08, 2020, 11:47:13 pm
COVID-19 101: (Eugenia Corrales Aguilar - Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyCssUarq0M
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2020, 11:50:52 pm
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.  Better plan some home projects.

To keep things positive, things could be much, much, much worse than being stuck at home watching TV.  My grandparents had to deal with the Great Depression and then WWII.  I prefer this to storming Juno beach.

My latest home project resulted in lovely smelling steam wafting from the slits in the top crust of a really thickly piled apple pie. A dollop of vanilla ice cream and a pot of coffee. Mowing the grass will simply have to wait 'till tomorrow.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 11:53:09 pm
I haven't been looking at every country's responses, but Trump, Trudeau, provincial governments, Italian government, Chinese gov etc.  They've all made mistakes.  Some more than others, or bigger mistakes than others.  They are run by humans, and all humans are fallible.  Mistakes will be made, the goal is to hopefully have a government that makes as few mistakes as possible.  When you're dealing with a deadly virus, any mistake can cost lives.  That's a crazy responsibility.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 08, 2020, 11:56:25 pm
But questioning whether they made the best decision with the information they had is a lot different from deliberately spreading misinformation, or suppressing information.

That right there was the point I made earlier about Trump and Johnson.  Yes, you can argue that they didn't jail doctors, but on the flip side, at least they had ample information to work with when they made their terrible decisions.  Which is worse?

We can all be justifiably mad that we are in this quagmire, but suing and holding governments 'accountable' seems a bit unrealistic. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 09, 2020, 12:00:23 am
It would be funny if they can't develop a vaccine and 70% of us inevitable will get it no matter what so all of this shutdown was in vain.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 12:11:37 am
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.
It would be funny if they can't develop a vaccine and 70% of us inevitable will get it no matter what so all of this shutdown was in vain.

which may be more difficult than typical efforts/timelines; albeit still in prelim release, a study is out that has provided the first systematic examination of antibody levels in patients who had recovered from Covid-19 (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.17.20036640v1.full.pdf+html)... the initial aim of the study was to attempt to determine whether some recovered COVID-19 patients have a higher risk of reinfection after finding surprisingly low levels of Covid-19 antibodies in a number of people discharged from hospital. Of 175 patients reviewed, nearly a third had unexpectedly low levels of antibodies - and in some cases, antibodies could not be detected at all.

study authors state the low-level of antibodies might be too low to provide natural immunity to a potential future encounter with the virus... with broader implications toward possibly impacting upon herd immunity - that resistance to the disease among the general population to stop its spread. It is speculated that those patients exhibiting low-level/no antibodies but might have beaten back COVID-19 with other parts of the immune system such as T-cells or cytokines. In any case, if the real virus could not induce antibody response in a third of the patients reviewed, the weakened version in a vaccine might not work in these patients either.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 12:12:46 am
you claimed a factual certainty... and your own linked article cautioned against your zeal: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

you're not the grandMysteryHuntingMaven you aspire to; you have a most circumspect history of preferring "alternative facts", particularly those that you find a way to craft to your self-serving agenda. You speak of "experts looking closely at the Wuhan live animal market"... for good reason you say. But somehow, you manage to ignore the study I referenced and the data/graphic that; again:
as for your questioned likelihood, as I read/infer, it's likely an intermediary animal brought the virus into the market... and without any known historical direct linkages between bats and humans, it's just as likely that the intermediary animal might be a domestic animal bitten by a bat... a domestic animal brought into the market for sale.


So is it your position that since we don't know for sure that the current pandemic resulted from animal trafficking, we don't need to worry about it in the future?

If it is, that's a patently stupid idea.

It's proven they caused the last one, it's more than likely they caused this one, and it's only a matter of time before they cause another one. 


As for the possibility that it was domestic animals, I read an article recently arguing that the "wet markets" wouldn't need to be closed if the wild animals weren't there. That's because China's domestic animals have been demonstrated to have low rates of disease, not much different than western animals.


As for your graph, a quick glance at it is all one needs to see how much information is missing.  A 10-day gap between the first and 2nd case alone should be a big clue how much they don't know about those early days.  They don't know that that was the first case, they don't know how many asymptomatic carriers there were, they don't know how many people were sick but didn't seek medical care, and given that animal trafficking is "illegal, wink wink" in China, they also probably don't know who was or wasn't actually involved in animal trafficking.

So holding up your little graph and saying "look, the first guy didn't even go to the market!" isn't very convincing. It's kind of sad, really.

I'm still wondering why you're lawyering on behalf of these scumbags. Why are you standing up for such despicable people?

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 12:14:19 am
So is it your position that since we don't know for sure that the current pandemic resulted from animal trafficking, we don't need to worry about it in the future?

*is* off!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 12:20:09 am
That right there was the point I made earlier about Trump and Johnson.  Yes, you can argue that they didn't jail doctors, but on the flip side, at least they had ample information to work with when they made their terrible decisions.  Which is worse?

They're all worse. We don't have to choose. All of them deserve to be pilloried over this. We don't have to choose just one.

We can all be justifiably mad that we are in this quagmire, but suing and holding governments 'accountable' seems a bit unrealistic.

Given that we're a tiny country in comparison to either the US or China, we don't have much clout to hold them accountable.  I think that the international community, acting as a group, could take measures to demand some changes from China.

Something along the lines of: we're not letting our citizens travel there, and we aren't letting your citizens travel here, until certain conditions are met regarding your handling of infections disease outbreak.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 12:20:55 am
*is* off!

Sorry, can you translate that from Waldoese to English?

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 12:21:06 am
So holding up your little graph and saying "look, the first guy didn't even go to the market!" isn't very convincing. It's kind of sad, really.

I'm still wondering why you're lawyering on behalf of these scumbags. Why are you standing up for such despicable people?

ya ya, you always struggle with actual studies... actual data. Not being able to show a correlation to the market for initial cases... where a third of the data sampling shows no exposure to the market - these are certainly inconvenient to your spun narrative - yes?  ;D

of course you keep nattering on with your "scumbag lawyering" strawman - of course you do!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 12:23:27 am
Sorry, can you translate that from Waldoese to English?

certainly; in response to your most idiotic and mind-numbing statement, "So is it your position that since we don't know for sure that the current pandemic resulted from animal trafficking, we don't need to worry about it in the future?"... I suggested you *is* off
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 12:27:57 am
ya ya, you always struggle with actual studies... actual data. Not being able to show a correlation to the market for initial cases... where a third of the data sampling shows no exposure to the market - these are certainly inconvenient to your spun narrative - yes?  ;D

of course you keep nattering on with your "scumbag lawyering" strawman - of course you do!

It's staggeringly incomplete data that mostly just serves to illustrate how much data is missing from those early weeks.  Perhaps they'd have had more data from that period if they hadn't threatened physicians for talking about an outbreak.


So why ARE you lawyering for scumbags?  Why so keen on trying to get animal traffickers off the hook?  "If the rhino horn don't fit, you must acquit!"

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 12:31:07 am
you *is* off

I'm sorry, I think perhaps you should sign up for some sort of remedial grammar course or something. You're just not making any sense. Unless it's a stroke or something.  Can you smell toast right now?

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 12:33:45 am
It's staggeringly incomplete data that mostly just serves to illustrate how much data is missing from those early weeks.

 ;D ya ya, the mightySquirrel gave you the chops to outright dismiss that scientific study... how Trumpian of you!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 12:47:20 am
;D ya ya, the mightySquirrel gave you the chops to outright dismiss that scientific study... how Trumpian of you!

It's not their study that's the problem, it's the inference you want to draw from it.

First, as I pointed out: you'd have to be an idiot to believe that they had one case, then nothing happened for 10 days, then 3 more cases, then nothing for 5 more days, then a whole raft of cases. They are obviously missing a lot of cases from that span.

Second, as I pointed out: the existence of asymptomatic carriers, and cases that don't require medical attention, guarantees that they can't know.

It's a lovely graph, and I'm sure they worked very hard trying to find all the cases they could. But it's a statistical certainty that they didn't find them all. So while that first little square may be blue, there's plenty of other squares that we don't know of and we don't know whether they're blue or pink. In short, it doesn't prove the point you think it does.


So for you to be holding up this graph and claiming it proves something that it doesn't just makes you look like a charlatan.   Posting a sciency-looking chart or graph and pretending it makes a point it doesn't actually make is one of your favorite tricks.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 12:55:43 am
no - on December 31 of last year, China alerted the World Health Organization of an outbreak of a novel strain of coronavirus (initially called SARS-CoV-2) - one causing sever illness. As I understand, it took China from 'mid-December' to that Dec 31 alert point to ascertain just what they were dealing with... as I read, shortly after the WHO was alerted, Chinese scientists sequenced the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made the data available to researchers worldwide. I understand the believed first occurrence in a human has been traced back to Dec 8th... with the number of confirmed cases on Dec 31 pegged at 266. But yes, how China handled public dissemination of the early circumstances and responses (or lack thereof), within China, can be (and has been) scrutinized; however, member kimmy, let's read your account of how China, the nation, should be held accountable for information provided(or not) to other countries and the responses those countries took (or didn't take) - notwithstandingc the respective preparedness of countries to any pandemic event.
- identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community, particularly in light of China's early notification to WHO and its sharing of the sequenced genome of SARS-CoV-2 with worldwide researchers


You sound like you're trying to become the new John McCallum.  With your praise for their Dec 31 call to the WHO alerting them to a novel SARS coronavirus, and their efforts in sequencing the virus genome, you make it sound like they're heroes in all this. I can only imagine that soon you'll be recommending Huawei phones.

If China did, as you say, contact the WHO on Dec 31,

fabrication and hyperbole - your standard fare! You categorize my factual statements as "praise for China"... how weak is your "argument" when you have to resort to such lame-assed plays. I identified the formal notification to WHO and the genome sequencing share - facts that you're clearly uncomfortable with. Your statement, "If China did, as I say, contact the WHO is gold, real gold!  ;D Again, how Trumpian of you!

for as much as you bluster and make shyte up, I will emphasize you chose to ignore my request of you; the one where I ask you to identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community . Of course, in response to me providing you 2 key example deliverables to the international community, you can't manage to answer my request. Instead you go allOutKimmy and beak-off about Huawei phones and calling me John McCallum - twice... on top of previously stating, repeatedly, I'm scumbag lawyering!

yes, clearly... you've lost it - mission accomplished says the waldo!  ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 01:06:55 am
It's not their study that's the problem, it's the inference you want to draw from it.

First, as I pointed out: you'd have to be an idiot to believe that they had one case, then nothing happened for 10 days, then 3 more cases, then nothing for 5 more days, then a whole raft of cases. They are obviously missing a lot of cases from that span.

Second, as I pointed out: the existence of asymptomatic carriers, and cases that don't require medical attention, guarantees that they can't know.

It's a lovely graph, and I'm sure they worked very hard trying to find all the cases they could. But it's a statistical certainty that they didn't find them all. So while that first little square may be blue, there's plenty of other squares that we don't know of and we don't know whether they're blue or pink. In short, it doesn't prove the point you think it does.

So for you to be holding up this graph and claiming it proves something that it doesn't just makes you look like a charlatan.   Posting a sciency-looking chart or graph and pretending it makes a point it doesn't actually make is one of your favorite tricks.

I'm not making any inference - I provided the study and relayed the findings... the author's findings. It's called a data sample; one you claim is incomplete/inadequate - cause you say so! You and your SquirrelDataChops, hey!  ;D Apparently, kimmyRules state the study authors must find every/all cases before they can do analysis and present findings! If you'd like to offer a formal comment to the paper, have at it - provide your scientific basis challenging their analysis/findings. Make sure to provide your understanding as to the significance of, as you label them, "the little blue squares". Make sure you don't include any "sciency-looking charts/graphs" in your formal comment... just the real stuff, not "sciency looking"! Oh my, member kimmy! Oh my!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 01:17:38 am
April 09, 2020, 06:08 GMT --- number of U.S. deaths related to COVID-19 rise above those from Spain

(https://i.imgur.com/bAFB7PH.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 01:42:47 am
Trump says he doesn't remember if he was briefed regarding the report issued by Peter Navarro regarding the Corona outbreak. Well I mean it only discussed the possibility of a world wide outbreak of a deadly disease, but who can remember all these trivial things! Especially when there is campaigning to deal with.

report dated January 29th - addressed directly to Trump... top admin officials also received the report. So, of course, Trump has no recollection of it!

Trade Adviser Warned White House in January of Risks of a Pandemic (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/navarro-warning-trump-coronavirus.html)

here's that same azz-kissing Navarro on Fox News today being asked about the report/memo - of course, he speaks of Dear Leader as being the greatest U.S. President of modern times!
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1248035263466610688/pu/vid/1280x720/LT6MRMFS9LX412mo.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 01:55:09 am
geezaz! Educate yourself member kimmy!!! Many people have the virus and show no symptoms... at least initially, and even then some experience just mild reactions. But they're still carriers of the virus, and particularly so during the initial days of contacting it (see virus "shedding"). It's these asymptomatic "silent carriers" that may be... may be... driving the pandemic.

waldo protip: if you're out walking and you're approached by ignorant joggers, don't rely on the so-called 2 meter buffer. The breath of these mega-exhaling azzholes (particularly in groups of runners) has a significantly greater reach than 2 meters. (Assuming you're not wearing a mask) turn your back to them... hold your breath to allow "droplets" to sink to the ground. Even then - about the efficacy of face masks (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2):

Outdoor activities require stricter social distancing, Belgian study suggests (https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/105427/outdoor-activities-require-stricter-social-distancing-belgian-study-suggests-slipstream-respiratory-droplets-ku-leuven-eindhoven-university-technology/)

Quote
“The recommended distance of 1.5 metres is very effective when people are moving slowly, but the situation is different when it comes to the active movement in sports,” he said.

Based on the simulations, the study suggests that one way to reduce this risk is to avoid being directly behind another person, either by running side by side or by running in a staggered formation.

(https://www.brusselstimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/TUEindhoven_KULeuven_Running_LQ.gif)

ok, now do runners impacting upon walkers.....
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 11:27:35 am
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1246964229611180032/pu/vid/1280x720/YG_Cjtc2lxmvzMTQ.mp4

Dr. Trump has reached further into his medicine bag! Zinc - they say zinc... you should add zinc... a lot of good stories... a lot of good stories
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1248010313040977920/pu/vid/1280x720/eS0HGns5_Dno8mJq.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2020, 11:45:56 am
from the Lincoln Project: Trump was just so distracted by.......
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1248196272416157702/pu/vid/1280x720/Ms-4_hW_oSzYjL9t.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 11:53:15 am
It would be funny if they can't develop a vaccine and 70% of us inevitable will get it no matter what so all of this shutdown was in vain.

It won't be in vain even then. If 70% are bound to be infected, you have to spread that out over a length of time which will keep the medical system from being overwhelmed. Italy, Spain, and the UK have shown that fatality rates go from 1 or 2% to over 10% in hurry as soon as that happens. New York city is now over 6%

On edit. Current fatality rate. Canada 2.3%. US 3.5%
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 09, 2020, 01:00:36 pm
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.  Better plan some home projects.

To keep things positive, things could be much, much, much worse than being stuck at home watching TV.  My grandparents had to deal with the Great Depression and then WWII.  I prefer this to storming Juno beach.

Once again, Graham is correct in his forecasting, as confirmed by PM Trudeau today:

Trudeau emphasized the need for Canadians to remain vigilant, staying home and frequently washing their hands in order to avoid the models' more grim projections.

"This will be the new normal until a vaccine is developed," he said.

"It will take months of continued, determined effort."


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/trudeau-warns-covid-19-restrictions-the-new-normal/ar-BB12oibk?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

Stay sane and stay busy my friends.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 09, 2020, 02:23:21 pm
It won't be in vain even then. If 70% are bound to be infected, you have to spread that out over a length of time which will keep the medical system from being overwhelmed. Italy, Spain, and the UK have shown that fatality rates go from 1 or 2% to over 10% in hurry as soon as that happens. New York city is now over 6%

On edit. Current fatality rate. Canada 2.3%. US 3.5%

Quite right and while the death rates are still up there the infection rate is leveling or even slowing which would indicate the physical distancing and or staying home actions are certainly not in vain. Fingers and toes crossed they get a treatment soon and a vaccine sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 09, 2020, 02:34:26 pm
report dated January 29th - addressed directly to Trump... top admin officials also received the report. So, of course, Trump has no recollection of it!

Trade Adviser Warned White House in January of Risks of a Pandemic (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/navarro-warning-trump-coronavirus.html)

here's that same azz-kissing Navarro on Fox News today being asked about the report/memo - of course, he speaks of Dear Leader as being the greatest U.S. President of modern times!
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1248035263466610688/pu/vid/1280x720/LT6MRMFS9LX412mo.mp4

Trump must be a little PO'ed at that pesky Canadian keeping track of his daily endless string of lies, misstatements, and ya know, just basic BS. Obviously a full time job and kudos to Daniel Dale for keeping up.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 09, 2020, 03:38:35 pm
It won't be in vain even then. If 70% are bound to be infected, you have to spread that out over a length of time which will keep the medical system from being overwhelmed. Italy, Spain, and the UK have shown that fatality rates go from 1 or 2% to over 10% in hurry as soon as that happens. New York city is now over 6%

On edit. Current fatality rate. Canada 2.3%. US 3.5%

I really don’t think Graham understands the concept that flattening the curve to not overwhelm the medical system is the goal, even if a vaccine comes sooner than later (which it won’t). 

If an extra 50,000 (number is just an example) people are saved prior to a vaccine becoming available because of all the measures, then how could the measures have been in vain?   

And he wonders why he was labeled a #covidiot?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 06:37:41 pm
Given the chance, I'd break Navarro's little twig neck for the stuff he said about our Prime Minister on Fox News a couple of years ago.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 09, 2020, 07:00:14 pm
Don't sweat the FOX idiots...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 07:16:47 pm
I'm not making any inference - I provided the study and relayed the findings... the author's findings. It's called a data sample; one you claim is incomplete/inadequate - cause you say so! You and your SquirrelDataChops, hey!  ;D Apparently, kimmyRules state the study authors must find every/all cases before they can do analysis and present findings! If you'd like to offer a formal comment to the paper, have at it - provide your scientific basis challenging their analysis/findings. Make sure to provide your understanding as to the significance of, as you label them, "the little blue squares". Make sure you don't include any "sciency-looking charts/graphs" in your formal comment... just the real stuff, not "sciency looking"! Oh my, member kimmy! Oh my!

Counterproposal: you find an expert willing to state with any confidence that the outbreak isn't related to the Wuhan seafood market.  I doubt that even the source of your sciency-looking graph is making such a claim.

You don't need to be Dr Fauci to understand that a sample of one (1) case is sufficient to draw any conclusion about where the outbreak began. (Dr Fauci is, btw, among those who are concerned that reopening wet markets in China is an unacceptable health risk.)

And once your graph does reach numbers where a trend becomes apparent, what becomes apparent is that the majority can be traced to that market.


The reason Dr Fauci and others are concerned about these markets is that they're a hazard. The Wikipedia article on wet markets contains plenty of citations indicating that experts have been warning about the potential of this exact thing happening, for years: "A ticking timebomb."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_market#Health_concerns
Quote
Health concerns

If sanitation standards are not maintained, wet markets containing wildlife products can spread diseases. Because of the openness, newly introduced animals may come in direct contact with sales clerks, butchers, and customers. Insects such as flies have relatively easy access to the food products. The avian flu and SARS outbreaks can be traced to keeping live animals in wet markets where the potential for zoonotic transmission is greatly increased.[71][72] In April 2020, scientist Peter Daszak described a Chinese wet market as follows: "it is a bit of shock to go to a wildlife market and see this huge diversity of animals live in cages on top of each other with a pile of guts that have been pulled out of an animal and thrown on the floor [...] These are perfect places for viruses to spread."[73]

In a 2007 study, Chinese scientists identified the presence of SARS-CoV-like viruses in horseshoe bats combined with unsanitary wildlife markets and the culture of eating exotic mammals in southern China as a "time-bomb".[74] A 2018 study in Malaysia concluded that wet market workers were at greater risk for leptospirosis infections.[75]

Chinese environmentalists, researchers and state media have called for stricter regulation of exotic animal trade in the markets.[26] Medical experts Zhong Nanshan, Guan Yi and Yuen Kwok-yung have also called for the closure of wildlife markets since 2010.[32]

Amidst the 2020 coronavirus pandemic, Chinese wet markets have been blamed for the outbreak.[76] Some reports say wildlife markets in other countries of Asia,[35][77][78] Africa,[79][80][81] and in general all over the world are also similarly prone to health risks.[82] In April 2020, a group of US lawmakers, NIAID director Anthony Fauci, UNEP biodiversity chief Elizabeth Maruma Mrema, and CBCGDF secretary general Zhou Jinfeng called for the global closure of wildlife markets due to the potential for zoonotic diseases and risk to endangered species.[41][83][84]




 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 07:17:21 pm
Don't sweat the FOX idiots...

Navarro isn't a Fox idiot, he's a Trump administration idiot.

 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 09, 2020, 07:24:36 pm
Ultimately, I don't think suing any of the covidiot government accomplishes anything.
You're probably right but I also think if we don't carefully examine political and official covidiocy and the role it played in spreading this disease farther and faster our only accomplishment will have been to pave the way for the next pandemic virus to use.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 09, 2020, 07:34:46 pm

fabrication and hyperbole - your standard fare! You categorize my factual statements as "praise for China"... how weak is your "argument" when you have to resort to such lame-assed plays. I identified the formal notification to WHO and the genome sequencing share - facts that you're clearly uncomfortable with. Your statement, "If China did, as I say, contact the WHO is gold, real gold!  ;D Again, how Trumpian of you!

for as much as you bluster and make shyte up, I will emphasize you chose to ignore my request of you; the one where I ask you to identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community . Of course, in response to me providing you 2 key example deliverables to the international community, you can't manage to answer my request. Instead you go allOutKimmy and beak-off about Huawei phones and calling me John McCallum - twice... on top of previously stating, repeatedly, I'm scumbag lawyering!

yes, clearly... you've lost it - mission accomplished says the waldo!  ;D

China's efforts to cover up the SARS outbreak even after Dec 31 when it was clear they knew what they had on their hands are unforgivable.

Wuhan is a city of apparently 11 million, it's an international business hub, it's a tourist destination for Yangtze River cruises apparently. Countless people would have come and gone from Wuhan during December.

If you don't recognize that their efforts to cover up the virus outbreak during that time are betrayal of their responsibility to not just their own citizens but to the rest of the world as well, then you need a kind of help I just can't give you.

As for John McCallum... if you don't like being compared to John McCallum, stop acting like John McCallum.

As for scumbag lawyering... if you don't like the accusation of scumbag lawyering, then stop lawyering for scumbags.  I'm completely baffled by your determination to make excuses for Chinese animal traffickers and "traditional Chinese medicine" practitioners.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 09, 2020, 07:36:32 pm
I really don’t think Graham understands the concept that flattening the curve to not overwhelm the medical system is the goal, even if a vaccine comes sooner than later (which it won’t). 

If an extra 50,000 (number is just an example) people are saved prior to a vaccine becoming available because of all the measures, then how could the measures have been in vain?   

And he wonders why he was labeled a #covidiot?

#squidiot  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 09, 2020, 07:37:07 pm
Navarro isn't a Fox idiot, he's a Trump administration idiot.

 -k

What did he say about our dear leader?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 09, 2020, 07:42:01 pm
#squidiot  :D :D :D

That all ya got? I guess squid wins...again. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 07:42:52 pm
What did he say about our dear leader?


He said there is a special place in hell for Trudeau.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 09, 2020, 07:45:54 pm
What did he say about our dear leader?

Are you starting to comprehend what Wilber posted?  That if we don’t “flatten the curve” with these isolation measures that the cases will overwhelm the system and make things worse?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 07:55:11 pm
So was imposing the Quarantine Act just for show, because the feds don't seem keen on enforcing it?
https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/cowichan-couple-wont-self-isolate-after-returning-from-overseas/

What say you squid, this your part of the world.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 09, 2020, 08:22:41 pm
So was imposing the Quarantine Act just for show, because the feds don't seem keen on enforcing it?
https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/cowichan-couple-wont-self-isolate-after-returning-from-overseas/

What say you squid, this your part of the world.

Teargas and tasers if they don’t comply is what I say....   

FYI - the feds do not have a direct line of control over the RCMP.  If local RCMP chooses not to enforce something, blame their leadership, lack of resources, or whatever is causing the lack of reaction.   Trudeau can’t hold every officer’s hand and direct them how to enforce the law.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:59:31 pm
Teargas and tasers if they don’t comply is what I say....   

FYI - the feds do not have a direct line of control over the RCMP.  If local RCMP chooses not to enforce something, blame their leadership, lack of resources, or whatever is causing the lack of reaction.   Trudeau can’t hold every officer’s hand and direct them how to enforce the law.

Bullshit, the RCMP is a federal police force. The Quarantine Act or any other federal law means sweet FA if a government can't get a federal agency to enforce it.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 09, 2020, 11:20:52 pm
You're probably right but I also think if we don't carefully examine political and official covidiocy and the role it played in spreading this disease farther and faster our only accomplishment will have been to pave the way for the next pandemic virus to use.

They were covidiots before really understanding what was happening, but they were stunningly brutal in their efforts to contain the virus once accepting the reality.  They f-ing welded people in their homes to die.

If I thought anything we bring on China would help them get rid of wet markets or next time not be covidiots in the name of 'economy', then I'd say bring it.

But it won't make a difference in the least and it might even set us up if the next pandemic starts in Alberta.  Or Quebec, depending on your poison.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: BC_cheque on April 09, 2020, 11:27:55 pm
So was imposing the Quarantine Act just for show, because the feds don't seem keen on enforcing it?
https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/news/cowichan-couple-wont-self-isolate-after-returning-from-overseas/

What say you squid, this your part of the world.

They should offer Nanaimo a commission:

Quote
Failure to comply with this order is an offense under the Quarantine Act. Maximum penalties include a fine of up to $750,000 and/or imprisonment for six months
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 12:43:04 am
now, as to the exact origin of the virus, as I understand that has not been determined and most likely never will be. What has been determined through analysis of the public genome sequence data is that the evolution of the virus has been determined to have originated through natural processes - natural evolution; i.e., "not made in a laboratory or otherwise engineered". To this point, related studies have pointed to the origination as either (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9):

=> the virus evolved to its current pathogenic state through natural selection in a non-human host and then jumped to humans. Given similarity to bat coronavirus, research has proposed bats as the most likely reservoir for COVID-19; however, as there are no documented cases of direct bat-human transmission, an intermediate host is believed to be involved between bats and humans
OR
=> a non-pathogenic version of the virus jumped from an animal host into humans and then evolved to its current pathogenic state within the human population. In this circumstance, a coronavirus in armadillo-like mammals found in Asia and Africa has a similarity to the COVID-19 virus... in this case either directly from "an anteater type mammal directly to a human, or through intermediaries like civets or ferrets to a human.
from your own linked article: "Prof Andrew Cunningham of Zoological Society of London (ZSL) said it was important not to jump to conclusions from the paper. "The source of the detected coronavirus really is unknown - it might have been a natural pangolin virus or have jumped from another species between capture and death.""

and most certainly, there is no scientific based consensus that the virus originated at a Wuhan so-called 'wet market'; in particular, study analysis (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673620301835?via%3Dihub) shows that some of the first known patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market. Most pointedly, study analysis shows that about a third of the first 41 confirmed infected patients had no direct exposure to the/a wet market... among them the first known patients where, in addition, "no epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases":
(https://i.imgur.com/XBk829H.png)

Counterproposal: you find an expert willing to state with any confidence that the outbreak isn't related to the Wuhan seafood market.  I doubt that even the source of your sciency-looking graph is making such a claim.

And once your graph does reach numbers where a trend becomes apparent, what becomes apparent is that the majority can be traced to that market.

oh my, you're such a heavyweight! I've re-quoted a few pertinent posts of mine above; ones that definitely show I've NOT taken a position in regards the market origination/correlation or lack thereof... rather, I've emphasized the lack of scientific consensus on the origin point. You on the other hand have stated factual certainty in regards the Wuhan market (and wild animal trafficking) as the origin point... and I've called you on it. Once again, you scored a member kimmy own-goal - you know, where I pointed out your linked article provided an expert statement advising against drawing conclusions... that the source is (and remains) unknown. Somehow, you skipped right over that lil' gem, hey!

I note you shifting goal-posts: you're now stating "related to" and you've dropped your emphasis on wild-animal trafficking! Is that cause you found something that aligned with the waldo's mentioning that, "it's just as likely the intermediary animal was a domestic one brought into the market for sale... one that might have been bit by a bat (the bat being the developing consensus as to the most likely source animal) - the key point, as I stated, no known circumstance of a direct bat-to-human virus exchange has ever been shown to have occurred; hence, the likely transference via an intermediary animal between bat and human.

as for showing more of your SquirrelChops, the study you're wigged out over, isn't relying upon your clueless reference to 'basic trend analysis' - if you could fathom it, the study leverages field related tests for statistical analysis and determining statistical significance... for conditions that emphasize quartile determinations, standard deviation, p values from chi-square tests, etc... but with an overall aim to describe (ICU versus non-ICU) epidemiological, clinical, laboratory, and radiological characteristics, treatment, and outcomes of the study's (n=41) patients; those earliest identified patients confirmed to have the COVID-19 infection. But yes, as I mentioned, the study does include the finding, as graphed, of those 41 patients (including "patient zero") with exposure versus without exposure to the Wuhan market... and you keep referring to the study graph as "your/my graph"... when you're not labeling it "sciency-looking"!  ;D

since you beaked off about data points and trend (which has no bearing/relevance to the study), within regression analysis the typical accepted number of data points to determine a statistically significant trend is 30... again, the referenced study has n=41. I suggest you just go silent here - you've embarrassed yourself enough - yes?

as for idiotic counterproposal challenge: you find an expert willing to state with certainty that the outbreak origin point was a trafficked wild-animal that transferred the virus to a human within the Wuhan seafood market... meanwhile, I'll continue as I have to-date, suggesting there is no scientific consensus on the origin point/source of the virus.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 12:56:25 am
I think we're **** until we all get vaccinated.
It would be funny if they can't develop a vaccine and 70% of us inevitable will get it no matter what so all of this shutdown was in vain.

which may be more difficult than typical efforts/timelines; albeit still in prelim release, a study is out that has provided the first systematic examination of antibody levels in patients who had recovered from Covid-19 (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.17.20036640v1.full.pdf+html)... the initial aim of the study was to attempt to determine whether some recovered COVID-19 patients have a higher risk of reinfection after finding surprisingly low levels of Covid-19 antibodies in a number of people discharged from hospital. Of 175 patients reviewed, nearly a third had unexpectedly low levels of antibodies - and in some cases, antibodies could not be detected at all.

study authors state the low-level of antibodies might be too low to provide natural immunity to a potential future encounter with the virus... with broader implications toward possibly impacting upon herd immunity - that resistance to the disease among the general population to stop its spread. It is speculated that those patients exhibiting low-level/no antibodies but might have beaten back COVID-19 with other parts of the immune system such as T-cells or cytokines. In any case, if the real virus could not induce antibody response in a third of the patients reviewed, the weakened version in a vaccine might not work in these patients either.

Once again, Graham is correct in his forecasting, as confirmed by PM Trudeau today:

Trudeau emphasized the need for Canadians to remain vigilant, staying home and frequently washing their hands in order to avoid the models' more grim projections.

"This will be the new normal until a vaccine is developed," he said.

"It will take months of continued, determined effort."

it is being said COVID-19 is exhibiting characteristics unique to itself; as I mentioned in the above re-quote, one of those appears to be, per an initial study, the presence (or not) and levels of antibodies observed in recovered patients... with possible implications to the overall efficacy of a developed vaccine.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 01:47:05 am
fabrication and hyperbole - your standard fare! You categorize my factual statements as "praise for China"... how weak is your "argument" when you have to resort to such lame-assed plays. I identified the formal notification to WHO and the genome sequencing share - facts that you're clearly uncomfortable with. Your statement, "If China did, as I say, contact the WHO is gold, real gold!  ;D Again, how Trumpian of you!

for as much as you bluster and make shyte up, I will emphasize you chose to ignore my request of you; the one where I ask you to identify your implied missing China obligations to the international community . Of course, in response to me providing you 2 key example deliverables to the international community, you can't manage to answer my request. Instead you go allOutKimmy and beak-off about Huawei phones and calling me John McCallum - twice... on top of previously stating, repeatedly, I'm scumbag lawyering!

yes, clearly... you've lost it - mission accomplished says the waldo!  ;D

China's efforts to cover up the SARS outbreak even after Dec 31 when it was clear they knew what they had on their hands are unforgivable.

Wuhan is a city of apparently 11 million, it's an international business hub, it's a tourist destination for Yangtze River cruises apparently. Countless people would have come and gone from Wuhan during December.

If you don't recognize that their efforts to cover up the virus outbreak during that time are betrayal of their responsibility to not just their own citizens but to the rest of the world as well, then you need a kind of help I just can't give you.

the waldo suggests member kimmy exercise caution in blindly accepting ALL statements critical of China - given the voracious appetite Trumpites have in deflecting Trump failures/incompetence toward China... in influencing the narrative cast by compliant media towards China failures (instead of Trump failures), thinking persons should be very diligent in source selection. As an example re-quoted above, I've already challenged you (several times with re-posts) to present a reputable sourced timeline that draws distinction between what China did (or didn't do) in terms of domestic versus international obligations... where I, in particular ask you to relate your implied missing international obligations.

for reference: China locked down the city of Wuhan (11 million people) on January 23rd... the same day other cities within the province of Hubei were also locked down (impacting upon a total population of 57 million people).

one of Trump's latest go-to azz-coverings is to repeatedly state he was first to impose a travel ban from China. Point in fact, Italy imposed a ban on flights from China on 31 January... the U.S. followed 4 days later; most pointedly, Italy enacted a full ban, while the U.S. policy was only a restriction, with wide exemptions. Just yesterday scientists have advised the source origin of the virus impacting upon the U.S. northeast coastal states was from Europe, not China.

As for John McCallum... if you don't like being compared to John McCallum, stop acting like John McCallum.

As for scumbag lawyering... if you don't like the accusation of scumbag lawyering, then stop lawyering for scumbags.  I'm completely baffled by your determination to make excuses for Chinese animal traffickers and "traditional Chinese medicine" practitioners.

I have no like... or dislike for either. I'm quite content to emphasize your repeated usage of the tags... particularly as you think them pertinent!  ;D I expect by your nattering repeat references to Huawei, you're so troubled by McCallum's foot-in-mouth (non-diplomatic) comments about the U.S. extradition request against Meng Wanzhou... I personally think he was right in his statements concerning her case to fight extradition. Not for this thread, but if you feel emboldened, McCallum's arguments to fight the extradition are public knowledge... make sure you take those on, hey! And also make sure you speak to the UK decision to align with Huawei's 5G - I mean, clearly you're troubled with the company!  ;D

as for your repeated want to label me as 'scumbag lawyering', I've not said word one... NOT WORD ONE... in favour of, as you say, "Chinese animal traffickers and traditional Chinese medicine practitioners". Clearly your peanutBrain infers my challenge to your unsubstantiated certainty that the origin point/source is the Wuhan market, is me advocating! Get a grip, member kimmy - get a grip!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 01:59:59 am
the daily Trump COVID-19 taskforce briefings have devolved into, for the most part, Trump campaign style rally's... to the point where networks stopped showing them in their entirety. CNN was most particular in how it adopted coverage and, for all of Trump's pointed attacks against CNN as "fake news" (even these last weeks and within the briefings themselves), there has been a Trump/Pence reaction:

Pence's office blocks public health officials from appearing on CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/media/pence-office-tv-bookings-coronavirus/index.html)

Quote
Vice President Mike Pence's office has declined to allow the nation's top health officials to appear on CNN in recent days and discuss the coronavirus pandemic killing thousands of Americans, in an attempt to pressure the network into carrying the White House's lengthy daily briefings in full.

Pence's office, which is responsible for booking the officials on networks during the pandemic, said it will only allow experts such as Dr. Deborah Birx or Dr. Anthony Fauci to appear on CNN if the network televises the portion of the White House briefings that includes the vice president and other coronavirus task force members.
CNN often only broadcasts President Donald Trump's question and answer session, which sometimes includes the health care officials, live on-air.

After Trump leaves the podium, CNN frequently cuts out of the White House briefing to discuss and fact-check what the President had said. A CNN executive said that the network usually returns to such programming because of the extensive length of the full briefing that includes Pence, which can run in excess of two hours.

cause... having the top medical experts address the public and take pointed questions from CNN personnel is the last thing the American public needs!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 10, 2020, 09:10:52 am
China's efforts to cover up the SARS outbreak even after Dec 31 when it was clear they knew what they had on their hands are unforgivable.

Wuhan is a city of apparently 11 million, it's an international business hub, it's a tourist destination for Yangtze River cruises apparently. Countless people would have come and gone from Wuhan during December.

If you don't recognize that their efforts to cover up the virus outbreak during that time are betrayal of their responsibility to not just their own citizens but to the rest of the world as well, then you need a kind of help I just can't give you.

As for John McCallum... if you don't like being compared to John McCallum, stop acting like John McCallum.

As for scumbag lawyering... if you don't like the accusation of scumbag lawyering, then stop lawyering for scumbags.  I'm completely baffled by your determination to make excuses for Chinese animal traffickers and "traditional Chinese medicine" practitioners.


 -k
Yes, for some reason some people have taken to defending China’s irresponsible behaviour.  China at best was grossly irresponsible, and at worst purposely deceitful.  They tried to cover their mess up as long as they could, until it wasn’t possible anymore.  The data they initially released indicted an outbreak something similar to SARS, when it was much much worse.  As a result, other countries, particularly in Europe were caught completely unprepared.  It’s time that countries banded together and cancel some of their debt that China holds.  It’s the only way to ensure that China takes the right steps in the future.  As this is the third pandemic to arise in China in recent times.  Enough is enough.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 10, 2020, 09:17:00 am
the waldo suggests member kimmy exercise caution in blindly accepting ALL statements critical of China - given the voracious appetite Trumpites have in deflecting Trump failures/incompetence toward China... in influencing the narrative cast by compliant media towards China failures (instead of Trump failures), thinking persons should be very diligent in source selection. As an example re-quoted above, I've already challenged you (several times with re-posts) to present a reputable sourced timeline that draws distinction between what China did (or didn't do) in terms of domestic versus international obligations... where I, in particular ask you to relate your implied missing international obligations.

for reference: China locked down the city of Wuhan (11 million people) on January 23rd... the same day other cities within the province of Hubei were also locked down (impacting upon a total population of 57 million people).

one of Trump's latest go-to azz-coverings is to repeatedly state he was first to impose a travel ban from China. Point in fact, Italy imposed a ban on flights from China on 31 January... the U.S. followed 4 days later; most pointedly, Italy enacted a full ban, while the U.S. policy was only a restriction, with wide exemptions. Just yesterday scientists have advised the source origin of the virus impacting upon the U.S. northeast coastal states was from Europe, not China.

I have no like... or dislike for either. I'm quite content to emphasize your repeated usage of the tags... particularly as you think them pertinent!  ;D I expect by your nattering repeat references to Huawei, you're so troubled by McCallum's foot-in-mouth (non-diplomatic) comments about the U.S. extradition request against Meng Wanzhou... I personally think he was right in his statements concerning her case to fight extradition. Not for this thread, but if you feel emboldened, McCallum's arguments to fight the extradition are public knowledge... make sure you take those on, hey! And also make sure you speak to the UK decision to align with Huawei's 5G - I mean, clearly you're troubled with the company!  ;D

as for your repeated want to label me as 'scumbag lawyering', I've not said word one... NOT WORD ONE... in favour of, as you say, "Chinese animal traffickers and traditional Chinese medicine practitioners". Clearly your peanutBrain infers my challenge to your unsubstantiated certainty that the origin point/source is the Wuhan market, is me advocating! Get a grip, member kimmy - get a grip!
Stop carrying water for an authoritarian government.  And stop disseminating Chinese government propaganda.  Stop letting your dislike for Trump cloud your ability to think logically.  Pretend Trump doesn’t even exist when you evaluate China.  Pretend Obama is president if you have to.  Just because one holds China rightly accountable for their actions doesn’t mean that they love Trump.  You can both criticize Trump, and criticize China at the same time.  It’s not an either or.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 10:09:01 am
Stop carrying water for an authoritarian government.  And stop disseminating Chinese government propaganda.  Stop letting your dislike for Trump cloud your ability to think logically.  Pretend Trump doesn’t even exist when you evaluate China.  Pretend Obama is president if you have to.  Just because one holds China rightly accountable for their actions doesn’t mean that they love Trump.  You can both criticize Trump, and criticize China at the same time.  It’s not an either or.

ya ya, says the Trump proponent - you! The waldo has never said China is above criticism; however, some members on this board aspire to fact-based testimony... should be a refreshing difficult change for you! My exercise caution stands - none of which is your described, "carrying water or disseminating propaganda"! Perhaps you could take up the challenge member kimmy has (repeatedly) ignored; but note, your sources will be heavily scrutinized as to their legitimacy.

the waldo suggests member kimmy exercise caution in blindly accepting ALL statements critical of China - given the voracious appetite Trumpites have in deflecting Trump failures/incompetence toward China... in influencing the narrative cast by compliant media towards China failures (instead of Trump failures), thinking persons should be very diligent in source selection. As an example re-quoted above, I've already challenged you (several times with re-posts) to present a reputable sourced timeline that draws distinction between what China did (or didn't do) in terms of domestic versus international obligations... where I, in particular ask you to relate your implied missing international obligations.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 10:19:26 am
member Shady - this thread includes several references to Trump/admin (and MAGAites) purposely labeling the COVID-19 virus as "the Chinese virus... as the Wuhan virus" - to the point Trump had to, repeatedly, give notice to "coincident" attacks (verbal and physical) on Chinese/Asian Americans. Will member Shady continue in that vein?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XizsaCNaHc
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 10:39:47 am
Yes, for some reason some people have taken to defending China’s irresponsible behaviour.  China at best was grossly irresponsible, and at worst purposely deceitful.  They tried to cover their mess up as long as they could, until it wasn’t possible anymore.  The data they initially released indicted an outbreak something similar to SARS, when it was much much worse.  As a result, other countries, particularly in Europe were caught completely unprepared.  It’s time that countries banded together and cancel some of their debt that China holds.  It’s the only way to ensure that China takes the right steps in the future.  As this is the third pandemic to arise in China in recent times.  Enough is enough.
And yet you insist we continue strengthening the most dangerous powerful dictatorship on the planet by selling it as much oil as we possibly can.

Does anyone else recall a point in time when we used to go out of our way to prevent oil from falling into the hands of communist dictatorships?  Why did we do that then but not now? What's changed?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 10, 2020, 10:52:02 am
And yet you insist we continue strengthening the most dangerous powerful dictatorship on the planet by selling it as much oil as we possibly can.

Does anyone else recall a point in time when we used to go out of our way to prevent oil from falling into the hands of communist dictatorships?  Why did we do that then but not now? What's changed?
No, I’ve never said as much as we can.  But I’m absolutely for selling them oil, with strings attached.  Because it makes us stronger.  Especially if they’re dependent on us.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 11:18:09 am
In terms of raw numbers, they {the U.S.} have tested more people.  They also have tests that provide results in 15 minutes.

wait a minute... what about Trump's boastful pledge that, 'everyone who wants a test, gets a test'? And the complete lack of early testing when most needed - you know, when Trump was ignoring/downplaying the virus for those LOST 2 months!

wait a second minute: what happened to Jared's must touted drive-through enterprise - that as of just days ago, has resulted in a grand total of 5 drive through locations across the entire U.S.. Sure, sure, manBoyKushner needed something to do given his monumental failures in his roles attempting to solve the opioid crisis and the Israel-Palestine conflict... and Trump only hires the best!  ;D

wait a third minute: what about all the uproar over Trump pulling federal funding for state-level testing sites? To the point that the intense backlash to the funding pull-back only resulted in a rescind of that intent... last night! (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/09/830805038/in-reversal-federal-support-for-coronavirus-testing-sites-continues) 

wait a... another minute: what about the lack of U.S. federal oversight in providing testing standards (including metrics)... to the point the U.S. CDC was forced to stop a national tracking of testing given the wide disparity in how testing is being done at the state level?

Trump, Kushner, and Navarro - the Dunning-Kruger trifecta!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 10, 2020, 11:50:05 am
member Shady - this thread includes several references to Trump/admin (and MAGAites) purposely labeling the COVID-19 virus as "the Chinese virus... as the Wuhan virus" - to the point Trump had to, repeatedly, give notice to "coincident" attacks (verbal and physical) on Chinese/Asian Americans. Will member Shady continue in that vein?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XizsaCNaHc
Referring to it as the Wuhan virus isn’t incorrect.  Just as referring to the Spanish flu or West Nile virus isn’t incorrect either.  Trump was referring to it as the China virus after China tried to blame the U.S. military for the virus’ origin.  Regardless, attacks like this are wrong. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 10, 2020, 12:02:58 pm
Actually the Spanish flu may have originated in Kansas and H1N1 in a U.S. pig factory.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 12:15:41 pm
Referring to it as the Wuhan virus isn’t incorrect.

factualWaldo protip: 2015 - WHO established best practices for naming of new human infectious diseases

Quote
WHO, in consultation and collaboration with the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), has identified best practices for the naming of new human diseases, with the aim to minimize unnecessary negative impact of disease names on trade, travel, tourism or animal welfare, and avoid causing offence to any cultural, social, national, regional, professional or ethnic groups.

per the official WHO announcement - naming the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and the virus that causes it

Quote
Official names for the virus responsible for COVID-19 (previously known as “2019 novel coronavirus”) and the disease it causes.

Disease: coronavirus disease (COVID-19)

Virus: severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 10, 2020, 12:16:14 pm
Actually the Spanish flu may have originated in Kansas and H1N1 in a U.S. pig factory.
How about Ebola or West Nile?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 10, 2020, 12:16:39 pm
Actually the Spanish flu may have originated in Kansas and H1N1 in a U.S. pig factory.
May have, there are a couple of other theories as well.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 10, 2020, 12:18:25 pm
Double post.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 10, 2020, 12:25:00 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-government-documents-1.5528726


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-pandemic-covid-canadian-military-intelligence-wuhan-1.5528381

No surprise but most western countries were slow out of the gate on this.
Just goes to show, a good virus loves a PC society.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 12:26:43 pm
How about Ebola or West Nile?

China, right?  ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 10, 2020, 01:10:22 pm
MASH and the Coronavirus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5CNHDeF2xA
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 01:20:45 pm
per official U.S. CDC count: 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus... not the inflated 17,000 number Trump uses in his March 15 tweet:

(https://i.imgur.com/paEWLDj.png)


given Trump calls the H1N1 response a catastrophe... what does that say about his/admin COVID-19 response... you know, the one where he actually stated, "I don't take responsibility at all"!

(https://i.imgur.com/x1JW0cH.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 10, 2020, 02:02:49 pm
Dr. Jerome Adams, the US surgeon general who is Black, stood up and mocked Black people with his language during a WHITE house press briefing. Is he now just another trump ass kisser? What a pathetic shit show all this has become, and people are dying in the wake. Not such a Good Friday this year.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 02:34:49 pm
No, I’ve never said as much as we can.  But I’m absolutely for selling them oil, with strings attached.  Because it makes us stronger.  Especially if they’re dependent on us.
You certainly did say as much as we can over at MLW and just a few weeks ago but I'll take your new caveats as a sign that the reasons for not wheeling and dealing with dictators like they were our BFF's are finally sinking in.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 02:36:16 pm
In terms of raw numbers, they {the U.S.} have tested more people.  They also have tests that provide results in 15 minutes.

wait a minute... what about Trump's boastful pledge that, 'everyone who wants a test, gets a test'? And the complete lack of early testing when most needed - you know, when Trump was ignoring/downplaying the virus for those LOST 2 months!

wait a second minute: what happened to Jared's must touted drive-through enterprise - that as of just days ago, has resulted in a grand total of 5 drive through locations across the entire U.S.. Sure, sure, manBoyKushner needed something to do given his monumental failures in his roles attempting to solve the opioid crisis and the Israel-Palestine conflict... and Trump only hires the best!  ;D

wait a third minute: what about all the uproar over Trump pulling federal funding for state-level testing sites? To the point that the intense backlash to the funding pull-back only resulted in a rescind of that intent... last night! (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/09/830805038/in-reversal-federal-support-for-coronavirus-testing-sites-continues) 

wait a... another minute: what about the lack of U.S. federal oversight in providing testing standards (including metrics)... to the point the U.S. CDC was forced to stop a national tracking of testing given the wide disparity in how testing is being done at the state level?

Trump, Kushner, and Navarro - the Dunning-Kruger trifecta!

member Shady - with your emphasis on U.S. testing raw numbers... now do per capita - yes?

from the April 9th COVID-19 T-force briefing, U.S. VP states 2 million tests have been performed. The waldo's crack research team advises that this amounts to ~0.6% of the U.S. population... geezaz, member Shady - less than 1% of the entire U.S. population has been tested for the COVID-19 disease! Which isn't stopping Trump from touting a May 1st Grand Opening of the U.S.! Granted he did talk earlier of an Easter Grand Opening... so... there's that!  ;D
https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1248384544526368768/vid/640x360/Anx9F3ct8CzWzPSM.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 10, 2020, 02:48:31 pm
"Government documents reveal a slow start to Canada's COVID-19 response"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-government-documents-1.5528726

As if anyone needed documents to know this, but it does confirm it.  The feds only got their arse in gear in mid-March.  They ignored international health warnings.  I've been mostly pleased by their response since then.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 02:50:23 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-government-documents-1.5528726


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-pandemic-covid-canadian-military-intelligence-wuhan-1.5528381

No surprise but most western countries were slow out of the gate on this.
Just goes to show, a good virus loves a PC society.
Not as much as COVID-19 loves sneaky governments and politicians who are more concerned about how they're perceived.

That said is there any point to measuring or accounting for how or if the effort that's put into perceiving them affected the spread of this virus? When people say that politicization is helping to drive the spread of COVID-19 are they just talking about politicians or human beings in general?

I think there's enough blame sloshing back and forth over this that we all deserve to get some on us. Some more than others I guess.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 10, 2020, 03:05:25 pm
"Government documents reveal a slow start to Canada's COVID-19 response"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-government-documents-1.5528726

As if anyone needed documents to know this, but it does confirm it.  The feds only got their arse in gear in mid-March.  They ignored international health warnings.  I've been mostly pleased by their response since then.

  It wasn't that long ago that you were saying the reaction was overblown.  Actually, it was right in the midst of it getting very bad.  And now you're complaining that the government didn't take action quick enough.  If the government took action a month earlier, your conspiracy-theory brain would have exploded!  :o

That said, I agree with the gist of the article.  Officials and government were afraid of what taking action would mean.  It would have been a huge disruption to our daily lives before things got really bad...  I'm not sure the general public (who are idiots) and businesses (who are greedy) would have accepted that before there was a full blown crisis. 

What we need in the future, and what I hope will come out of this, is a government who will listen to science and experts more, and the bureaucracy less when it comes to something like a pandemic*.  Where scientists are the ones who are doing the recommending and not some bureaucrats who worry about public reaction more than they do about public health;  people who understand what it really takes to deal with a pandemic*, and worry less (or not at all) about the political consequences.



(*Substitute climate change for pandemic in my post as to what we'll need in the future as well.  The same thing is happening, just at a much slower pace than a viral pandemic)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 10, 2020, 03:05:37 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/dL0XKIM.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 03:11:40 pm
"Government documents reveal a slow start to Canada's COVID-19 response"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-government-documents-1.5528726

As if anyone needed documents to know this, but it does confirm it.  The feds only got their arse in gear in mid-March.  They ignored international health warnings.  I've been mostly pleased by their response since then.
Me too, I'm more impressed with how my provincial health system was responding and even more impressed with my regional and local health authorities. Virtually every resort and tourist company hereabouts shut down immediately following a local radio broadcast and appeal from our hospital's head doctor and local mayors.

I think people were already physically distancing themselves and taking precautions in BC before mid March simply because Ottawa is 3000 miles away.  I think the stories emerging around the likelihood that military intelligence knew about this months before civilian authorities did should be front and center of public consciousness.

To bad Julian Assange and Edward Snowden weren't around when we really needed them.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 10, 2020, 03:19:17 pm
Me too, I'm more impressed with how my provincial health system was responding and even more impressed with my regional and local health authorities. Virtually every resort and tourist company hereabouts shut down immediately following a local radio broadcast and appeal from our hospital's head doctor and local mayors.

I think people were already physically distancing themselves and taking precautions in BC before mid March simply because Ottawa is 3000 miles away.  I think the stories emerging around the likelihood that military intelligence knew about this months before civilian authorities did should be front and center of public consciousness.

To bad Julian Assange and Edward Snowden weren't around when we really needed them.

BC Ferries had sailing waits yesterday and today as people flocked to the islands (including mine) and the Sunshine Coast for a nice long weekend out of the Lower Mainland.  Watch for a spike in 2 weeks in many communities.  People are going to die because some entitled dickheads want to go on a vacation.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/04/09/people-are-being-asked-not-to-do-this-sunshine-coast-resident-dismayed-by-ferry-traffic/

Quote
“People are absolutely incensed that people are not following the guidelines that have been clearly laid out for days if not weeks, telling people not to come. People are nervous about the influx of people,” she explains.

“The bottom line is people are being asked not to do this. The longer people don’t obey the provincial rules, the longer we’re going to be in lockdown, and the more people are going to get sick and die.”

According to the BC Ferries website, every scheduled sailing between Horseshoe Bay and the Sunshine Coast was full Thursday, with two Friday sailings already sold out.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 10, 2020, 03:29:41 pm
BC Ferries had sailing waits yesterday and today as people flocked to the islands (including mine) and the Sunshine Coast for a nice long weekend out of the Lower Mainland.  Watch for a spike in 2 weeks in many communities.  People are going to die because some entitled dickheads want to go on a vacation.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/04/09/people-are-being-asked-not-to-do-this-sunshine-coast-resident-dismayed-by-ferry-traffic/

Interesting. I took the ferry Tsawassen-Swartz Bay to get home last Monday. You could have fire a cannon on the passengert decks and not likely hit anyone. Most of the cars had people in them and the folks on deck were practicing physical distancing. Why would people let their guard down over some dumb religious bullshit holiday I wonder?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 04:09:18 pm
 We've been assured police and parks wardens hereabouts will be pulling people over, giving them the lecture and telling them to go back to the other side of the island.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 10, 2020, 04:20:56 pm
We've been assured police and parks wardens hereabouts will be pulling people over, giving them the lecture and telling them to go back to the other side of the island.

I'm wondering/waiting to see if the Vancouver Police hand out one of those 1K fines they now have on the books for failing to distance.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 10, 2020, 05:01:44 pm
We've been assured police and parks wardens hereabouts will be pulling people over, giving them the lecture and telling them to go back to the other side of the island.

Not likely to happen...  RCMP are not going to be pulling over cars to ask where they're from.  The vacationers willl be using your grocery stores, gas stations, staying in Air B&Bs, etc. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 05:08:06 pm
I'm wondering/waiting to see if the Vancouver Police hand out one of those 1K fines they now have on the books for failing to distance.
It's all RCMP out here and Federal Parks Warden's have similar authority.  I guess it depends on how broadly the term/phrase failing distance is interpreted and applied.  Given the urgency I'd think a $1000 fine plus a simple "Stay the **** at home" would be apropos.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 05:13:07 pm
Not likely to happen...  RCMP are not going to be pulling over cars to ask where they're from.  The vacationers willl be using your grocery stores, gas stations, staying in Air B&Bs, etc.
We shall see. If you're right I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of local 1st Nations that have been itching to throw up a blockade on the only hwy leading into and passing thru their territory take action.  These were dragging logs across all the roads leading into their villages on March 17th hereabouts.  We still have one more local level of government in reserve...so to speak.

As far as I know I think stores and gas stations have closed and everyone knows everyone else so anyone opening up their BnB's will probably hear about it toot suit.  There's been a LOT of focus on BnB's in our local news and social media feeds around here and they'd have to be completely oblivious to not feel the heat.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 10, 2020, 05:26:13 pm
It's all RCMP out here and Federal Parks Warden's have similar authority.  I guess it depends on how broadly the term/phrase failing distance is interpreted and applied.  Given the urgency I'd think a $1000 fine plus a simple "Stay the **** at home" would be apropos.

Actually there is a VPD and they have enacted this 1k fine but so far as I see it's simply a warning measure which has not yet been applied to anyone.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 10, 2020, 05:35:31 pm
We shall see. If you're right I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of local 1st Nations that have been itching to throw up a blockade on the only hwy leading into and passing thru their territory take action.  These were dragging logs across all the roads leading into their villages on March 17th hereabouts.  We still have one more local level of government in reserve...so to speak.

As far as I know I think stores and gas stations have closed and everyone knows everyone else so anyone opening up their BnB's will probably hear about it toot suit.  There's been a LOT of focus on BnB's in our local news and social media feeds around here and they'd have to be completely oblivious to not feel the heat.

Sure, that could work in a town of a few hundred, I suppose.  It won't work in places like Port Hardy, Sechelt, Ucluelet, etc...  medium sized towns. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 10, 2020, 07:00:18 pm
Sure, that could work in a town of a few hundred, I suppose.  It won't work in places like Port Hardy, Sechelt, Ucluelet, etc...  medium sized towns.
I can only go on the word of Tofino's Mayor on the news last night.  A replay of BC highway cams leading this way seem to show pretty light traffic

In addition to receiving fines has anyone heard of people possibly being required to also quarantine themselves at home for two weeks?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 10, 2020, 07:05:20 pm
I can only go on the word of Tofino's Mayor on the news last night.  A replay of BC highway cams leading this way seem to show pretty light traffic

In addition to receiving fines has anyone heard of people possibly being required to also quarantine themselves at home for two weeks?

I think that is really awesome that Tofino is able to do that!!  The  Sunshine Coast and other communities need to do the same!  Unfortunately, if the east side gets worse, the west will not be magically spared.  All your stuff comes from this side.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 10, 2020, 07:19:58 pm
I think that is really awesome that Tofino is able to do that!!  The  Sunshine Coast and other communities need to do the same!  Unfortunately, if the east side gets worse, the west will not be magically spared.  All your stuff comes from this side.

Only one road leading to Tofino and Uclulet, just get local FN to set up a road block.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 10, 2020, 07:23:57 pm
Only one road leading to Tofino and Uclulet, just get local FN to set up a road block.

They didn’t need to.  RCMP and Parks Canada are stopping vehicles.  I was wrong about that a few posts up.  They are taking this very seriously.  The Province failed to anticipate the ferry traffic.  RCMP should’ve been in the lineup enforcing the essential only travel restrictions.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 10, 2020, 07:42:50 pm
Just as Graham predicted, the feds don't have anything close to the capacity to approve all of these new CERB claims manually, and will automatically approve applications and check eligibility later:  https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/coronavirus-all-cerb-claims-to-be-approved-feds-will-check-eligibility-later/ar-BB12s19C?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

If anyone wants a free loan of $2000 a month, go apply today, they'll just claw it back later.  It will probably take them years to get through these applications and start demanding repayment.  Public servants at Service Canada/ESDC were already stretched to capacity before this virus.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 10, 2020, 07:54:27 pm
Just as Graham predicted, the feds don't have anything close to the capacity to approve all of these new CERB claims manually, and will automatically approve applications and check eligibility later:  https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/coronavirus-all-cerb-claims-to-be-approved-feds-will-check-eligibility-later/ar-BB12s19C?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

If anyone wants a free loan of $2000 a month, go apply today, they'll just claw it back later.  It will probably take them years to get through these applications and start demanding repayment.  Public servants at Service Canada/ESDC were already stretched to capacity before this virus.

Loans are loans, and therefore they usually get clawed back, just to set you straight. what the gov. is offering is an interest free loan. That means you get to use the money for some time without extra cost.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 10, 2020, 09:24:18 pm
Loans are loans, and therefore they usually get clawed back, just to set you straight. what the gov. is offering is an interest free loan. That means you get to use the money for some time without extra cost.

The CERB isn't a loan at all.  It's free money, if you qualify.  But even if you don't, free loan!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 10, 2020, 10:21:34 pm
The CERB isn't a loan at all.  It's free money, if you qualify.  But even if you don't, free loan!

You need to maker up your mind. Are you talking about CERB or interest free business loans. There's a difference.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 10, 2020, 10:44:24 pm
You need to maker up your mind. Are you talking about CERB or interest free business loans. There's a difference.

I've only mentioned CERB.  I've never mentioned "interest free business loans".  It's pretty clear what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 10, 2020, 11:24:46 pm
Just as Graham predicted, the feds don't have anything close to the capacity to approve all of these new CERB claims manually, and will automatically approve applications and check eligibility later:  https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/coronavirus-all-cerb-claims-to-be-approved-feds-will-check-eligibility-later/ar-BB12s19C?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout

If anyone wants a free loan of $2000 a month, go apply today, they'll just claw it back later.  It will probably take them years to get through these applications and start demanding repayment.  Public servants at Service Canada/ESDC were already stretched to capacity before this virus.


Minor issue.  Of course they were never going to have the ability to do this to perfection.

Hence the need for Universa’ Basic Income.  Wouldn’t need to ramp up anything.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 12:04:39 am
surprise, surprise, surprise!

(https://i.imgur.com/fWPKCAq.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 12:07:58 am
especially for the new Shady member; again, facts matter!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cud7mOQ5DsM
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 12:12:08 am
oh my! "Staying at home leads to death also"..... so... back to work! Chop, chop!
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1248701181087580165/pu/vid/1280x720/mQBi6o6ir170lWgf.mp4

of course, what the blowhard fails to grasp is he doesn't hold the cards - State Governors do. What a maroon, what a rube!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 11, 2020, 12:37:14 am

Minor issue.  Of course they were never going to have the ability to do this to perfection.

Hence the need for Universa’ Basic Income.  Wouldn’t need to ramp up anything.

If far more people needed money from a universal basic income program, ie: millions of newly unemployed, of course they'd have to ramp things up.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 11, 2020, 12:49:04 am
If far more people needed money from a universal basic income program, ie: millions of newly unemployed, of course they'd have to ramp things up.


 ::)

As in, they won’t need to increase infrastructure or resources to deal with a brand new program;  they could simply increase the amount to whomever they wanted.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 11, 2020, 01:39:10 am
Only one road leading to Tofino and Uclulet, just get local FN to set up a road block.
The possibility they might have inspired the RCMP to set up their checkpoint. There were certainly voices from local indigenous communities ready to block the highway to outsiders back in the middle of March.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 11, 2020, 06:15:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEfDwc2G2_8
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 11, 2020, 06:43:35 am
We're told we're not supposed to travel to our cottages.  Sophie Trudeau and kids are now staying at their cottage in Quebec.

Justin Trudeau just told every Canadian not to travel to see family this weekend. His wife and kids are in Quebec right now. A reporter asked how he will be spending Easter, and he said "I hope to spend it with my family."
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 11, 2020, 09:04:44 am
We're told we're not supposed to travel to our cottages.  Sophie Trudeau and kids are now staying at their cottage in Quebec.

Justin Trudeau just told every Canadian not to travel to see family this weekend. His wife and kids are in Quebec right now. A reporter asked how he will be spending Easter, and he said "I hope to spend it with my family."

Sophie and the kids are. JT wanted to join them but had to stay in Ottawa because Parliament is debating his new bill.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 11, 2020, 10:30:33 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEfDwc2G2_8
Bill Maher drops a f*cking truth bomb on the heads of all liberals.  It was glorious! 😂
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 11, 2020, 10:34:30 am
member Shady - this thread includes several references to Trump/admin (and MAGAites) purposely labeling the COVID-19 virus as "the Chinese virus... as the Wuhan virus" - to the point Trump had to, repeatedly, give notice to "coincident" attacks (verbal and physical) on Chinese/Asian Americans. Will member Shady continue in that vein?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XizsaCNaHc
Who cares?  We don’t stop telling the truth because racists get the wrong idea.  Um, Zika, MERS, Lyme, Ebola, West Nile, and dozens more virus’ are named from where they originate.  Communist China doesn’t get a pass, despite their pathetic objections. 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 11, 2020, 10:35:28 am
Waldo’s posts really should be moved to outrage culture.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 11:22:05 am
Waldo’s posts really should be moved to outrage culture.

thread drift! Please format your request to emphasize your outrage... and re-post in the appropriate 'outrage thread' - thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 11, 2020, 11:36:58 am
thread drift! Please format your request to emphasize your outrage... and re-post in the appropriate 'outrage thread' - thanks in advance!
Lol.  Well, you’re outraged that a virus was correctly called from the area it originated.  As almost every virus in history has.  Certainly in the last several years.  But I guess things change when you feel the need to carry water for China.  Then using such names is OUTRAGEOUS!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 11:45:40 am
Referring to it as the Wuhan virus isn’t incorrect.

factualWaldo protip: 2015 - WHO established best practices for naming of new human infectious diseases

Quote
WHO, in consultation and collaboration with the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) and the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), has identified best practices for the naming of new human diseases, with the aim to minimize unnecessary negative impact of disease names on trade, travel, tourism or animal welfare, and avoid causing offence to any cultural, social, national, regional, professional or ethnic groups.

per the official WHO announcement - naming the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and the virus that causes it

Quote
Official names for the virus responsible for COVID-19 (previously known as “2019 novel coronavirus”) and the disease it causes.

Disease: coronavirus disease (COVID-19)

Virus: severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)

Who cares?  We don’t stop telling the truth because racists get the wrong idea.  Um, Zika, MERS, Lyme, Ebola, West Nile, and dozens more virus’ are named from where they originate.  Communist China doesn’t get a pass, despite their pathetic objections.
Lol.  Well, you’re outraged that a virus was correctly called from the area it originated.  As almost every virus in history has.  Certainly in the last several years.  But I guess things change when you feel the need to carry water for China.  Then using such names is OUTRAGEOUS!

as the waldo pointed out, the WHO naming convention was established in 2015... giving the WHO 4 years of cover before SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 originated! ;D

now I expect your allInAllOutrageSelf won't allow you to easily differentiate concern from outrage... cause the waldo did express concern about the want/propensity of Trump/admin, MAGAites, Trumpistas, et al, to attempt to deflect the idiocy/incompetency/failure of Trump towards China... and the waldo did express empathetic concern for the safety of Asian Americans!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 12:21:06 pm
heck of a job Brownie!... now the leading COVID-19 death nation

(https://i.imgur.com/xlOAqcm.png)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7g8E9jdH_w
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 11, 2020, 01:05:35 pm
What does the World Cup have to do with Covid 19, other than there might not be one this year.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 11, 2020, 01:19:34 pm
heck of a job Brownie!... now the leading COVID-19 death nation

(https://i.imgur.com/xlOAqcm.png)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7g8E9jdH_w
Now do per capita.  Regardless, yes, the downplaying and recklessly irresponsible New York City and New York State government has really skewed the numbers compared to the rest of the country.  If their leadership hadn’t been telling people as recent as mid March to go about there lives, and that the virus wasn’t a treat, they may have been able to contain things better.  At least they’re bending the curve now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 02:11:09 pm
Now do per capita.  Regardless, yes, the downplaying and recklessly irresponsible New York City and New York State government has really skewed the numbers compared to the rest of the country.  If their leadership hadn’t been telling people as recent as mid March to go about there lives, and that the virus wasn’t a treat, they may have been able to contain things better.  At least they’re bending the curve now.

I've not read/seen (much of) the targeted NYCity/State criticism you're TrumpDeflectingUpon... some for the mayor... little to none for Governor Cuomo. Even your boy Trump says Cuomo is properly sucking up to him in order to get needed PPE, ventilators, etc..
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 11, 2020, 02:11:49 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/FwnyoqH.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 12, 2020, 07:21:48 am
(https://i.imgur.com/t76t72M.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 12, 2020, 08:49:35 am
Trump says he doesn't remember if he was briefed regarding the report issued by Peter Navarro regarding the Corona outbreak. Well I mean it only discussed the possibility of a world wide outbreak of a deadly disease, but who can remember all these trivial things! Especially when there is campaigning to deal with.

report dated January 29th - addressed directly to Trump... top admin officials also received the report. So, of course, Trump has no recollection of it!

Trade Adviser Warned White House in January of Risks of a Pandemic (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/navarro-warning-trump-coronavirus.html)

here's that same azz-kissing Navarro on Fox News today being asked about the report/memo - of course, he speaks of Dear Leader as being the greatest U.S. President of modern times! https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1248035263466610688/pu/vid/1280x720/LT6MRMFS9LX412mo.mp4

the NYT has just printed one of the most comprehensive accounting's of the failed Trump/admin response (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage): from a separate summation 'takeaway' account of that comprehensive NYT article, it's clear Trump absolutely did see the Navarro memo, was briefed on it... and was quite upset with the fact Navarro actually put it in writing!

(https://i.imgur.com/48kMKaI.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 12, 2020, 09:49:23 am
factualWaldo protip: 2015 - WHO established best practices for naming of new human infectious diseases

per the official WHO announcement - naming the coronavirus disease (COVID-19) and the virus that causes it


as the waldo pointed out, the WHO naming convention was established in 2015... giving the WHO 4 years of cover before SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 originated! ;D

now I expect your allInAllOutrageSelf won't allow you to easily differentiate concern from outrage... cause the waldo did express concern about the want/propensity of Trump/admin, MAGAites, Trumpistas, et al, to attempt to deflect the idiocy/incompetency/failure of Trump towards China... and the waldo did express empathetic concern for the safety of Asian Americans!
I’m sure that China was highly appreciative of the “new” naming system, since several of the most recent pandemics have originated from them.  Probably just a coincidence.  Along with the WHO disseminating Chinese propaganda for the world to consume.  Including their mid January assertion that there’s no evidence of human to human transmission.  Which was an absolute lie.  These lies have directly led to tens of thousands of deaths world wide, as countries were caught unprepared.  Stop carrying water for the Chinese regime, and stop trying to place blame at the feet of Trump when it was China that began this global disaster.  95% of all of this could’ve been prevented if China had conducted itself properly from the beginning.  But orange man bad, so reality gets ignored once again.  You have stage 4 of Trump Derangement Syndrome.  Get some help fast!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 12, 2020, 11:31:01 am
China muzzled scientists that unlocked the genetic make up of the virus
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8210951/Beijing-authorities-hushed-findings-Chinese-scientist.html

More evidence that China lied and people died.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 12, 2020, 11:48:13 am
I’m sure that China was highly appreciative of the “new” naming system, since several of the most recent pandemics have originated from them.  Probably just a coincidence.

on this board, loyal Trumpists don't get a free pass - please provide, as you say, a listing of "recent pandemics that have originated from China". Please make sure you note both the interpreted country of origin... and the first country of notice... for the most recent H1N1 prior pandemic before COVID-19

it appears that advising you of that 4-year gap between the creation of the new naming convention and the COVID-19 origination hasn't tempered any of your enthusiasm to carry water for Trump - to rally around one of the more prominent deflecting points (the WHO) that Trump is feverishly attempting to lay blame at for his absolute failures in responding to COVID-19. 

Along with the WHO disseminating Chinese propaganda for the world to consume.  Including their mid January assertion that there’s no evidence of human to human transmission.  Which was an absolute lie.


you speak of, a mid-January assertion from the WHO that there's no evidence of human-to-human transmission - citation request:

the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

Quote
14 January 2020 --- WHO's technical lead for the response noted in a press briefing there may have been limited human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus (in the 41 confirmed cases), mainly through family members, and that there was a risk of a possible wider outbreak. The lead also said that human-to-human transmission would not be surprising given our experience with SARS, MERS and other respiratory pathogens. 

22 January 2020 --- WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.

you speak of, as you say, "the WHO disseminating Chinese propaganda"... but you provide no specifics, no details. This is so unlike you member Shady!  ;D

you throw down a labeling of Stage 4 TDS; however, in the face of the collective summaries of Trump incompetence/dithering to-date, with more coming forward on a regular basis, the waldo suggests you are at DEFCON2 in TrumpianForceReadiness!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 12, 2020, 04:52:22 pm
geezaz, Trumpists are out again comparing death numbers for COVID-19 to the seasonal flu... claiming Trump is doing a great job handling COVID-19 in comparison! Somehow, the benchmark reference being used for seasonal flu is 61,000 deaths in the U.S..

go figure:
- no mention is made of an available vaccine for seasonal flu... versus the stay-at-home, social distancing extreme measures being taken for COVID-19
- no mention that the official recognized seasonal flu season runs 6 months - from October to March (with peaks over 3 months of that period)
- somehow an estimate of 61,000 was chosen (as represented by the actual 2017-2018 estimate)... not the 38,000 for 2016-2017, or the 23,000 for 2015-2016... or even the most recent 34,000 for 2018-2019

actual COVID-19 counts:

- 4 weeks ago: 58 deaths
- 3 weeks ago: 323 deaths
- 2 weeks ago: 2,043 deaths
- 1 week ago: 8,488 deaths

right now: Last updated: April 12, 2020, 21:22 GMT => COVID-19 cases 557,235 / deaths 21,956
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 12, 2020, 04:54:37 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ecn3NI1.png)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 12, 2020, 05:01:53 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ecn3NI1.png)

That's yet another scary part of all this. Not only did Trump fuck up in his initial response to earlier warnings, he may now jump the gun, open the doors and there will be that group of nit wits who trust him who will be back on the beaches, streets, etc. and then so much for the flattening arc.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 12, 2020, 05:02:16 pm
from today's Jake Tapper SOTU on CNN: Trump attacking... rebuffing media asking inconvenient questions:
https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1249349118822158341/vid/1280x720/xdMi1KyaUT6iFer0.mp4

Mr. President, what is the plan - do you have a plan?  ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 12, 2020, 05:04:42 pm
That's yet another scary part of all this. Not only did Trump **** up in his initial response to earlier warnings, he may now jump the gun, open the doors and there will be that group of nit wits who trust him who will be back on the beaches, streets, etc. and then so much for the flattening arc.

typical Trump bloviating! State Governors will be the determiners... but yes, granted, a Trump pronouncement will sway "some number" of Republican State Governors
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 12, 2020, 05:23:41 pm
And then there is this creepy scumbag. Another trump supporter of course. No wonder I hate religion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvctoHePjnU
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 12, 2020, 07:18:29 pm
Is there a way we can assess true negligence in this atmosphere ? 

How ?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 12, 2020, 08:21:50 pm
Is there a way we can assess true negligence in this atmosphere ? 

How ?

Investigation of when people knew things and what, if any, their actions were given that information.

Canadian and US federal governments were both slow to respond.  The US was seemingly worse.  At least Canada finally got its butt in gear.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 12, 2020, 08:31:31 pm
Investigation of when people knew things and what, if any, their actions were given that information.

Canadian and US federal governments were both slow to respond.  The US was seemingly worse.  At least Canada finally got its butt in gear.

Most western governments were slow to react, most will be judged on how they responded after the fact. Trump has to be one of the worst but you have to wonder when his faithful with realize it, if ever.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 12, 2020, 08:50:37 pm
1. Investigation of when people knew things and what, if any, their actions were given that information.

2. Canadian and US federal governments were both slow to respond.  The US was seemingly worse.  At least Canada finally got its butt in gear.
1. Ok.  It's hard for someone to assess their reaction though, I would think, unless it's obviously inappropriate.  For example, after 9/11 it was stated that US intelligence warned of a threat months before the attack.  I don't think that information alone is enough to assess the reaction by the administrations.

2. Well, maybe so.  Again - hard to say for sure.  Can you compare two places, even places as similar as Canada and the USA ?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 12, 2020, 08:56:00 pm
1. Ok.  It's hard for someone to assess their reaction though, I would think, unless it's obviously inappropriate.  For example, after 9/11 it was stated that US intelligence warned of a threat months before the attack.  I don't think that information alone is enough to assess the reaction by the administrations.

2. Well, maybe so.  Again - hard to say for sure.  Can you compare two places, even places as similar as Canada and the USA ?

It seems ever more apparent from statements emerging from within Trump's own WH that he ignored warnings simply because he was more concerned about his single minded focus on the economy, especially in an election year. He has blood on his hands.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 12, 2020, 08:57:54 pm
1. Ok.  It's hard for someone to assess their reaction though, I would think, unless it's obviously inappropriate.  For example, after 9/11 it was stated that US intelligence warned of a threat months before the attack.  I don't think that information alone is enough to assess the reaction by the administrations.

2. Well, maybe so.  Again - hard to say for sure.  Can you compare two places, even places as similar as Canada and the USA ?

You can assess when countries started to push testing, started to try and procure masks and protective gear, put quarantines and self-isolation measures in place, order people to stay home and close businesses, ban travel from problem countries, screen travelers etc.

Most countries have responded with the same measures it's just a matter of when they implemented them.  I think the US was slow because the feds are ignorant, and I think Canada was slow because they're PC and didn't want to offend people and maybe also some ignorance.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 12, 2020, 10:53:46 pm
Trump now wants to fire Faucci for having dared to be critical of his slow response to warnings of the outbreak.

Mr. Trump reposted a Twitter message that said “Time to #FireFauci” as he rejected criticism of his slow initial response to the pandemic that has now killed more than 22,000 people in the United States. The president privately has been irritated at times with Dr. Fauci, but the Twitter post was the most explicit he has been in letting that show publicly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/us/politics/trump-fauci-coronavirus.html
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 12:41:31 am
The feds slow early response: 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-canada-federal-response-1.5529263

The government's initial focus was on repatriating stranded Canadians in Wuhan, China, the epicentre of the outbreak, and subsequently on Canadians to be evacuated from cruise ships. That evolved into a focus on travellers from China and those coming from other coronavirus hot spots like Iran.

While that response included quarantines for repatriated travellers, it did not involve stricter border controls in general, as Canada agreed with the World Health Organization's advice against closing borders and travel bans.

"The long-term implications of shutting down borders is they're not very effective at controlling disease. In fact, they're not very effective at all," Hajdu said on Feb.17.

Multiple studies have shown that borders don't stop viruses, but stricter controls can slow them down by days or even weeks. Since the goal was delaying the virus and buying time, Chowdhury said not restricting entry into Canada early on was one of the government's biggest missed opportunities.


Graham said on record saying Canada should have closed borders early on.  Graham is yet again correct.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 13, 2020, 12:53:11 am
The feds slow early response: 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-canada-federal-response-1.5529263

The government's initial focus was on repatriating stranded Canadians in Wuhan, China, the epicentre of the outbreak, and subsequently on Canadians to be evacuated from cruise ships. That evolved into a focus on travellers from China and those coming from other coronavirus hot spots like Iran.

While that response included quarantines for repatriated travellers, it did not involve stricter border controls in general, as Canada agreed with the World Health Organization's advice against closing borders and travel bans.

"The long-term implications of shutting down borders is they're not very effective at controlling disease. In fact, they're not very effective at all," Hajdu said on Feb.17.

Multiple studies have shown that borders don't stop viruses, but stricter controls can slow them down by days or even weeks. Since the goal was delaying the virus and buying time, Chowdhury said not restricting entry into Canada early on was one of the government's biggest missed opportunities.


Graham said on record saying Canada should have closed borders early on.  Graham is yet again correct.

Graham is yet again restating the obvious as if it was news.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 12:58:08 am
Graham is yet again restating the obvious as if it was news.

Nope some people here defended our government saying we shouldn't close borders because it wouldn't prevent the spread.  You specifically criticized Trump for shutting down travel from China and other COVID trouble spots.  At least Trump managed to do one thing right in all of this.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2020, 01:54:35 am
Trump/admin and acolytes are in hyper-mode trying to impress the point that SaviourTrump's so-called "China travel ban - enacted Feb 2", is the "silver bullet" showcasing Trump's above reproach response in handling COVID-19!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0-u2WpW9js

facts:

- on Dec 31: China notified international health officials that it had detected an outbreak of a mysterious pneumonia-like illness
- on Jan 3: Dr. Robert R. Redfield, the C.D.C.’s director, notified Trump's Secretary of Health & Human Services (Alex Azar) that China had potentially discovered a new coronavirus
- from that Jan 3rd date on through to the deployment of Trump's so-called "China travel ban" enacted on Feb 2, at least 430,000 people arrived in the U.S. from China on direct flights; the bulk of these travelers entering at airports in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Newark and Detroit.
- the described "ban"... isn't a ban; rather, only foreign nationals travel has been restricted while some 40,000 travelers have since entered the U.S. on flights from China over the ~2 months since the Feb 2 enactment... comprised of American citizens, green-card holders and their non-citizen relatives.
- no travel restrictions were put in place for flights from Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Korea, Japan or Singapore
- no travel restrictions were put in place for persons recently in China but arriving into the U.S. via a third country
- no travel restrictions were applied to shipping carriers
- no travel restrictions from Europe were applied; more pointedly: U.S. Got More Confirmed “Index Cases” of Coronavirus From Europe Than From China (https://theintercept.com/2020/04/12/u-s-got-more-confirmed-index-cases-of-coronavirus-from-europe-than-from-china/)

Quote
What Trump doesn’t mention, however, is his administration’s failure to restrict travelers from Europe until it was too late. An investigation by The Intercept shows that travel from Europe was a key facilitator of the virus’s spread in the U.S. — a large amount of the first Covid-19 cases in the U.S. can be traced to Europe. While the China restrictions operated as an attempt to close the front door to infections from the nation where the pandemic started, the back door — travel from Europe, where the virus took hold particularly fiercely in Italy — remained wide open until the middle of March and can be connected to a surge of cases in the U.S., especially in the New York area.

of course, following this one-month delay between internal Trump admin notification and the enactment of travel restrictions, on through to the early days of March when testing first began in the U.S. ... on through to present day, the U.S. has still tested less than 1% of its entire population for COVID-19 - testing which doesn't include any contact tracing or antibody detection capabilities.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 13, 2020, 01:56:46 am
Nope some people here defended our government saying we shouldn't close borders because it wouldn't prevent the spread.  You specifically criticized Trump for shutting down travel from China and other COVID trouble spots.  At least Trump managed to do one thing right in all of this.

Ah nope. I specifically criticized Trump for not reacting soon enough and for playing down the seriousness of the situation.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on April 13, 2020, 02:04:11 am
Nope some people here defended our government saying we shouldn't close borders because it wouldn't prevent the spread.  You specifically criticized Trump for shutting down travel from China and other COVID trouble spots.  At least Trump managed to do one thing right in all of this.

Closing borders may not have been helpful when what was really necessary was early and massive testing and quarantine, regardless of whether travellers were returning Canadians or not. Even near the end of March, returning Canadians were not being tested and isolation instructions were vague with no monitoring. People had their goodbye parties down south, came home, went shopping and visited elderly parents in long term care homes and other family and friends. By the time reality kicked in, it was too late.

I wanted to trust Dr Tam, but she has proven to be too easily influenced by business and political interests, thus our current situation and lack of preparedness.

Because of a mask shortage, she told us not to wear any until just recently. I've been frustrated by people not distancing properly, and I discovered that if you wear a mask, people stay away from you. That alone is a good reason to wear one.  Lol
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 13, 2020, 02:51:22 am
I discovered that if you wear a mask, people stay away from you. That alone is a good reason to wear one.  Lol
I've started wearing a mask in local stores as a sign of solidarity with people being forced to wear them but yours sounds like a good reason too. Thanks.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on April 13, 2020, 07:18:22 am
Thank you Jason Kenney.

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/braid-in-striking-act-of-generosity-alberta-donates-protective-gear-worth-41-million-to-three-provinces

$41m worth of PPE.
Apparently Alberta's single health unit is better prepared than Ontario and Quebec's multiple regional health authorities.
Now there's a clue to planning for the  next pandemic! Clearly such planning and preparation should not be left to regional health authorities and long term care facilities whose operating budgets are constantly limited and attacked and not capable of preparing for a pandemic. Some health admin  functions like emergency preparedness must be centrally organized.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 12:49:32 pm
Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/world/asia/trump-who-coronavirus-china.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 13, 2020, 01:45:18 pm
Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/world/asia/trump-who-coronavirus-china.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

So, do you think the WHO has its own intelligence gathering organization (CIA, MI6, CSIS etc) or does it have to rely on the information it gets from governments?

Turns out military intelligence was warning governments back in January, particularly the 5 Eyes countries but were largely ignored until March.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2020, 01:49:58 pm
Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

don't hurt yourself... analysis is tough... going beyond a link dump takes time/energy and you've already stated how you're preoccupied with self-satisfaction!

by the by, did you happen to hear/see any of Trump's foreshadowing comments last week... that they were (I paraphrase) coming for the WHO? I trust your willingness to blindly throw cover for yet another Trump deflecting blame target gives you solace. Now calm yourself, cause the waldo ain't sayin the WHO doesn't warrant criticism; however, it should be warranted/properly investigated and completely free of partisan political influence (willingly or not).

the waldo took just one of your links (from the Atlantic) for shytes&giggles; the whole article delves on a single WHO tweet from January 14; this one that references PRELIMINARY investigations... NO clear evidence:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZD6ux1C.png)

from an earlier post; one coincident to that same January 14 date showing actual notifications from the formal WHO COVID-19 timeline:
...
the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

Quote
14 January 2020 --- WHO's technical lead for the response noted in a press briefing there may have been limited human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus (in the 41 confirmed cases), mainly through family members, and that there was a risk of a possible wider outbreak. The lead also said that human-to-human transmission would not be surprising given our experience with SARS, MERS and other respiratory pathogens. 

22 January 2020 --- WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.

uhhh, SelfIso... that's quite the link drop you've offered!  ;D The waldo prefers you do your own review/analysis... that you go beyond just blindly dropping go-fetch links forcing others to do your work for you!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 02:03:13 pm
uhhh, SelfIso... that's quite the link drop you've offered!  ;D The waldo prefers you do your own review/analysis... that you go beyond just blindly dropping go-fetch links forcing others to do your work for you!

Your propaganda analysis is BS, so I typically don't read it.  You cut and paste what fits your narrative and ignore the rest.  Why would anyone listen to me when they can read actual articles from journalists.  I know reading articles can be hard, much harder than reading tweets.  You can do it wally.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 13, 2020, 02:06:53 pm
Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/world/asia/trump-who-coronavirus-china.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

I think you got the cart before the horse on this one. The articles themselves suggest China officials need to be blamed before the WHO. Trump of course jumped on that bandwagon even though it was early warnings from his own staff that he ignored.   
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 02:19:41 pm
So, do you think the WHO has its own intelligence gathering organization (CIA, MI6, CSIS etc) or does it have to rely on the information it gets from governments?

Turns out military intelligence was warning governments back in January, particularly the 5 Eyes countries but were largely ignored until March.

If the WHO relies on info China feeds to them, they need to stop.  At least the rest of the world is finally jumping on the "F*** China" bandwagon that I've been preaching for a couple of years now. 

Maybe it's time Canada relied on its own intelligence and the Five Eyes rather than the WHO.  China keeps gaining international influence and it seems to be for the worse.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 02:21:03 pm
I think you got the cart before the horse on this one. The articles themselves suggest China officials need to be blamed before the WHO. Trump of course jumped on that bandwagon even though it was early warnings from his own staff that he ignored.   

The articles say the WHO also covered for China and their attempts to cover things up.  The WHO lauded China's "transparency".
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on April 13, 2020, 02:31:37 pm
. Now calm yourself, cause the waldo ain't sayin the WHO doesn't warrant criticism; however, it should be warranted/properly investigated and completely free of partisan political influence (willingly or not).

I agree.
 Process is better than mudslinging.

Interesting graphic here

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1712761/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2020, 02:33:33 pm
Your propaganda analysis is BS, so I typically don't read it.

what/who am I propagandizing for? I bring receipts... you should try it sometime!

You cut and paste what fits your narrative and ignore the rest.

says you - the guy who just pasted 4 go-fetch links... while offering SFA of your own review/analysis commentary

Why would anyone listen to me when they can read actual articles from journalists.  I know reading articles can be hard, much harder than reading tweets.  You can do it wally.

I'm not surprised that you would outright believe that journalists/sources, particularly in this day of scaled back media resourcing and an emphasis on shared syndication, are not infallible, are not subject to influence, are not biased (willingly or not), etc.. Besides, your boy Trump says its all Fake News, right?

so... I just looked at the listing of the 3 other links you dropped. The "Hill" is typically slanted heavily right-wing... notwithstanding the article is an OPINION piece. I read the first few paragraphs of the NYT article and quit after it brought forward the same nonsense I've just covered previously (vis-a-vis the January 14th tweet) - somehow these favoured journalists of yours "aren't aware" of the official WHO COVID-19 timeline that I compared that tweet to... again, the tweet that includes those damning words "Preliminary investigations"! ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 02:42:53 pm
so... I just looked at the listing of the 3 other links you dropped. The "Hill" is typically slanted heavily right-wing... notwithstanding the article is an OPINION piece. I read the first few paragraphs of the NYT article and quit after it brought forward the same nonsense I've just covered previously (vis-a-vis the January 14th tweet) - somehow these favoured journalists of yours "aren't aware" of the official WHO COVID-19 timeline that I compared that tweet to... again, the tweet that includes those damning words "Preliminary investigations"! ;D

Ya the NYT and CNN are Trump-loving right-wing orgs that will parrot his BS with pleasure.  ???

Omg an opinion piece!  Waldo's posts are all opinion pieces so I guess we should ignore those too.  I know I do!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 13, 2020, 02:49:18 pm
If the WHO relies on info China feeds to them, they need to stop.  At least the rest of the world is finally jumping on the "F*** China" bandwagon that I've been preaching for a couple of years now. 

Maybe it's time Canada relied on its own intelligence and the Five Eyes rather than the WHO.  China keeps gaining international influence and it seems to be for the worse.

So where do you think the WHO gets its Canadian info from, or any other country for that matter? Do you think China or any other country allows WHO observers into their health care systems?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2020, 03:41:15 pm
so... I just looked at the listing of the 3 other links you dropped. The "Hill" is typically slanted heavily right-wing... notwithstanding the article is an OPINION piece. I read the first few paragraphs of the NYT article and quit after it brought forward the same nonsense I've just covered previously (vis-a-vis the January 14th tweet) - somehow these favoured journalists of yours "aren't aware" of the official WHO COVID-19 timeline that I compared that tweet to... again, the tweet that includes those damning words "Preliminary investigations"! ;D
Ya the NYT and CNN are Trump-loving right-wing orgs that will parrot his BS with pleasure.  ???

Omg an opinion piece!  Waldo's posts are all opinion pieces so I guess we should ignore those too.  I know I do!

again, in the face of you simply dropping go-fetch links... 4 of them no less, you should anticipate others will use some preliminary criteria as to whether or not to read them. I appreciate you believe your time is more valuable than anyone else's! I didn't read your linked CNN article. I read the Atlantic one fully and provided you a retort, in kind. As I said, I read the first few paragraphs of the NYT article and bailed on it after reading the same emphasis the Atlantic article presented - as in bullshyte! And as I said, I don't typically read the Hill given its usual overt right-wing slant - notwithstanding I bailed on the article because it was nothing more than an opinion piece... as much as you wanted to emphasize you put forward JOURNALISTS... the 2 authors of that Hill article are anything but journalists, you blathering Covidiot! 

now, let the waldo show you how its done... show you how to do research, bring it forward to the board and present it in a meaningful, contextually relevant manner. It does take a tad more effort than your (offered without personal comment) lazyazz pasting of go-fetch links. Here, in regards human-to-human transmission and evidence therein, chew on this paper reference as originally published January 29 (in the New England Journal of Medicine) - as I'm aware, the first substantive, comprehensive study analyzing the first 425 laboratory confirmed cases of persons (from Wuhan) known to have contracted COVID-19:

(https://i.imgur.com/58BZ6hr.png)

like I said, I bring receipts. So... this formal published study (Early Transmission Dynamics in Wuhan, China, of Novel Coronavirus–Infected Pneumonia (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2001316?query=featured_home)), appears on January 29 - confirmation of, with evidence, human-to-human transmission. Again, as I've posted previously, 2 dates from the official WHO COVID-19 timeline:

...
the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

Quote
14 January 2020 --- WHO's technical lead for the response noted in a press briefing there may have been limited human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus (in the 41 confirmed cases), mainly through family members, and that there was a risk of a possible wider outbreak. The lead also said that human-to-human transmission would not be surprising given our experience with SARS, MERS and other respiratory pathogens. 

22 January 2020 --- WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.

SelfIso, you're welcome...

on edit: added link to study - published paper Li Q, et al. N Engl J Med. 2019;doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2001316
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 04:20:43 pm
again, in the face of you simply dropping go-fetch links... 4 of them no less, you should anticipate others will use some preliminary criteria as to whether or not to read them. I appreciate you believe your time is more valuable than anyone else's! I didn't read your linked CNN article. I read the Atlantic one fully and provided you a retort, in kind. As I said, I read the first few paragraphs of the NYT article and bailed on it after reading the same emphasis the Atlantic article presented - as in bullshyte! And as I said, I don't typically read the Hill given its usual overt right-wing slant - notwithstanding I bailed on the article because it was nothing more than an opinion piece... as much as you wanted to emphasize you put forward JOURNALISTS... the 2 authors of that Hill article are anything but journalists, you blathering Covidiot! 

Blah blah blah.  I didn't read anything past waldiot calling me a covidiot.  Feel free to waste your own time though.  If you don't like the articles i really don't care.  The WHO has been compromised by Chinese political influence.  Good times!

We need an organization like the UN by democratic nations for democratic nations.  No compromising from crap regimes like China, Russia, Iran, or the whole of Africa etc.  Join or die, the Americans used to say.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 13, 2020, 04:38:26 pm
on this board, loyal Trumpists don't get a free pass - please provide, as you say, a listing of "recent pandemics that have originated from China". Please make sure you note both the interpreted country of origin... and the first country of notice... for the most recent H1N1 prior pandemic before COVID-19

it appears that advising you of that 4-year gap between the creation of the new naming convention and the COVID-19 origination hasn't tempered any of your enthusiasm to carry water for Trump - to rally around one of the more prominent deflecting points (the WHO) that Trump is feverishly attempting to lay blame at for his absolute failures in responding to COVID-19. 
 

you speak of, a mid-January assertion from the WHO that there's no evidence of human-to-human transmission - citation request:

the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

you speak of, as you say, "the WHO disseminating Chinese propaganda"... but you provide no specifics, no details. This is so unlike you member Shady!  ;D

you throw down a labeling of Stage 4 TDS; however, in the face of the collective summaries of Trump incompetence/dithering to-date, with more coming forward on a regular basis, the waldo suggests you are at DEFCON2 in TrumpianForceReadiness!
You still haven’t addressed China’s muzzling of scientist.  Too busy carrying water huh?  China was dealing with covid all through December, but were suppose to believe that there was only limited evidence of transmission?  Come on man, you’re smarter than to believe such propaganda, especially when China completely shut down Wuhan shorty after the inexcusably wrong assessment from the WHO.  Stop making excuses for China’s grossly irresponsible behaviour.  You need to stop viewing everything through the prism of Trump.  Start holding China accountable for their actions instead of perpetuating their lies and propaganda just because orange man bad.  They clearly lied, and it’s led to tens of thousands of deaths worldwide.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 13, 2020, 04:40:49 pm
Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/world/asia/trump-who-coronavirus-china.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/487851-china-and-the-whos-chief-hold-them-both-accountable-for-pandemic

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/
Hopefully some of the good that comes of this is a total overhaul of the WHO.  It’s almost criminal what they’ve become.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 13, 2020, 05:13:46 pm
Today Dr. Fauci confirmed that the first time he and Dr. Birx recommended mitigation in the form of a shut down to the president, the president acted on their recommendation.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2020, 05:19:58 pm
You still haven’t addressed China’s muzzling of scientist.  Too busy carrying water huh?  China was dealing with covid all through December, but were suppose to believe that there was only limited evidence of transmission?  Come on man, you’re smarter than to believe such propaganda, especially when China completely shut down Wuhan shorty after the inexcusably wrong assessment from the WHO.  Stop making excuses for China’s grossly irresponsible behaviour.  You need to stop viewing everything through the prism of Trump.  Start holding China accountable for their actions instead of perpetuating their lies and propaganda just because orange man bad.  They clearly lied, and it’s led to tens of thousands of deaths worldwide.
Hopefully some of the good that comes of this is a total overhaul of the WHO.  It’s almost criminal what they’ve become.

I note you've ignored my requests for you to substantiate your statements... that you've ignored my repeated rebuffs of your unsubstantiated statements. Like I said, on this board, baseless nattering/propagandizing (like yours) will be scrutinized... challenged. Such a change from the cozy comforts of your closed-shop bubble/echo chamber, hey!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 13, 2020, 05:21:28 pm
At least the rest of the world is finally jumping on the "F*** China" bandwagon that I've been preaching for a couple of years now. 
Maybe after 15 years of being on the bandwagon it'll finally dawn on you that f***ing China involves our being able to prevent our government from f***ing us.

Quote
Maybe it's time Canada relied on its own intelligence and the Five Eyes rather than the WHO.  China keeps gaining international influence and it seems to be for the worse.
I suppose but what's the point if we can't rely on our Five Eyes to do its job and get the news out that something was happening in China that could be cataclysmic to us?

The Five Eyes are blind and useless to us without a public Sixth Eye Canadians can rely on to keep an eye them.

You know what I mean by that.  I've been on the Total Public Awareness bandwagon getting on near 22 years now.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 05:31:32 pm
Maybe after 15 years of being on the bandwagon it'll finally dawn on you that f***ing China involves our being able to prevent our government from f***ing us.

I don't know what this sentence means.

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2020, 05:43:10 pm
Today Dr. Fauci confirmed that the first time he and Dr. Birx recommended mitigation in the form of a shut down to the president, the president acted on their recommendation.

acted how? As I've stated several times now, U.S. State Governors hold the keys!

Quote
In actuality, the decision on when and how to reopen is not entirely Mr. Trump’s to make because he never ordered it closed. The stay-at-home edicts that have kept the vast bulk of Americans indoors were issued by governors state by state.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2020, 05:49:32 pm
Blah blah blah.  I didn't read anything past waldiot calling me a covidiot.  Feel free to waste your own time though.  If you don't like the articles i really don't care.

according to your penchant to simply paste go-fetch links, you believe my/our time is YOUR time. Rise-up SelfIso... rise-up and go beyond blindly copying/pasting links that you can't even be bothered to comment on yourself! I actually liked your articles... rebuffing them was gold, real gold!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 13, 2020, 06:14:06 pm
I don't know what this sentence means.
Preventing official opacity.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 13, 2020, 06:48:24 pm
I note you've ignored my requests for you to substantiate your statements... that you've ignored my repeated rebuffs of your unsubstantiated statements. Like I said, on this board, baseless nattering/propagandizing (like yours) will be scrutinized... challenged. Such a change from the cozy comforts of your closed-shop bubble/echo chamber, hey!
I’ve posted several times on China’s irresponsible behaviour and their muzzling of scientists.  If only Harper was doing it, then you might actually give a damn.  Instead you just go on carrying water for a ruthless dictatorship, all because orange man is bad.  Get some help for that.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 13, 2020, 08:22:39 pm
Chinese businesses, people, governments etc are apparently going full-out racist against black people living in China for fear they have COVID.  Even a McDonalds restaurant in China banned black people from its restaurant.  WTF!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/africans-in-china-allege-racism-as-fear-of-new-virus-cases-unleashes-xenophobia/2020/04/13/7f606cd8-7d26-11ea-84c2-0792d8591911_story.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/fears-of-second-wave-coronavirus-china-sparked-xenophobia-2020-4

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/04/11/world/africa/ap-af-virus-outbreak-africa.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrasternlicht/2020/04/13/black-people-are-not-allowed-reports-of-discrimination-after-chinese-city-orders-mandatory-quarantine-for-african-residents/#4ad30eb45479
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Granny on April 13, 2020, 11:13:19 pm
Scheer speaks.
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/andrew-scheer-addresses-parliament-this-is-the-job-of-team-canada-full-transcript/?utm_medium=organic&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1586790023
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 12:42:12 am
You still haven’t addressed China’s muzzling of scientist.

China was dealing with covid all through December, but were suppose to believe that there was only limited evidence of transmission? 

Come on man, you’re smarter than to believe such propaganda, especially when China completely shut down Wuhan shorty after the inexcusably wrong assessment from the WHO.
I’ve posted several times on China’s irresponsible behaviour and their muzzling of scientists.  If only Harper was doing it, then you might actually give a damn.  Instead you just go on carrying water for a ruthless dictatorship, all because orange man is bad.  Get some help for that.

please substantiate your statement: "the inexcusably wrong assessment from the WHO"... what wrong assessment, made when?

your nattering about "muzzled scientists" needs contextual reference and a relevant timeline. I appreciate you're used to just sayin' whatever, but again, on this board substantiation is the norm. What's most pointedly needed is for you to provide the period of time over which said "irresponsible behaviour & scientist muzzling" occurred... that is to say, what impact it had.

you speak of, "China dealing with COVID all through December" - please provide details and a timeline that supports your statement, with particular attention given to your "all through December" reference. I've put forward numerous posts that have dated events within them... events that align with formal notifications made by China to international health organizations/the WHO; events that correlate with published scientific papers; the sharing of sequenced genome data, etc..

I look forward to reading your factual, legitimate and substantiated accounting of your claimed irresponsible behaviour/scientists muzzling by China - and, again, most pointedly how that aligns/fits within the broader public knowledge of China notifications and actions taken to aid foreign governments/international health organizations/scientific community.

China was slammed for initial COVID-19 secrecy, but its scientists led the way in tackling the virus (https://sciencebusiness.net/international-news/china-was-slammed-initial-covid-19-secrecy-its-scientists-led-way-tackling-virus)

Quote
The accusation that the Chinese government delayed in letting the world know about the COVID-19 outbreak has become a political weapon in countries including the US, the UK and Canada.

But China’s scientists have won international praise for hitting several key milestones in understanding the novel, fast-moving virus.

Chinese leaders were seen as slow to react to the outbreak that began in the city of Wuhan, suppressing information and even punishing those who raised the alarm.

There was an early cover up in Wuhan, perhaps a few days to a week, before the threat was accepted. We will never know if faster action in those first days could have averted the outbreak,” said Ian Jones, professor of biomedical sciences at Reading University.

Despite the initial slow reaction from the government, “There has been a very open dialogue [since] and many research findings from the Chinese experience are now appearing,” says Jones.

In January, a team led by Yong-Zhen Zhang, of the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre & School of Public Health, published the initial viral genome on two open-access sites, drawing praise for the swiftest sequencing effort ever. Later that month, Chinese doctors and scientists reported the first description of the new disease in the Lancet medical journal.

“Under immense pressure, as the epidemic exploded around them, they took time to write up their findings in a foreign language and seek publication in a medical journal thousands of miles away. Their rapid and rigorous work was an urgent warning to the world. We owe those scientists enormous thanks,” said Richard Horton, Lancet editor.

At the University of Hong Kong, researchers are developing a COVID-19 vaccine, novel screening agents, diagnostic tests and models of infection to trace the source and help prevent future occurrences.

“[We] were among the first teams in the world to produce a detailed cluster report, epidemiology report, electron microscope images and mathematical model of the potential spread of the virus,” said Zhang Xiang, president and vice-chancellor of the university. “Most Hong Kong residents still remember the experience of living through SARS in 2003, several instances of avian influenza, MERS, and now COVID-19.”

Any disagreements over how countries have managed the epidemic has not trickled down into labs, says Michael Head, a senior research fellow in global health in the University of Southampton. “Whilst there will always be the politics of mistrust, I think, broadly, we’re seeing reasonable cooperation between China and elsewhere,” he said.

The Chinese have been leading the way in publishing open-access evidence on case management, genomics and numerous areas of public health and epidemiology, which has been vital in informing the response in more or less every country.”

Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 12:44:36 am
WTF!

twice now!  ;D Yet another paste of, count em, 4 go-fetch links... the waldo senses a pattern here!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 14, 2020, 12:53:42 am
twice now!  ;D Yet another paste of, count em, 4 go-fetch links... the waldo senses a pattern here!

The Waldo should work for CSIS!  :D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 12:55:58 am
Instead you just go on carrying water for a ruthless dictatorship, all because orange man is bad.  Get some help for that.

it goes without saying, but I'll say it: do you interpret your described orangeMan is faultless in how he has reacted since first being alerted to the virus/disease in "early January".

timely that you use the word "dictatorship" - your described OrangeMan declared himself a dictator today - claiming he holds "total authority"!  Yes sir, that's quite the meltdown Trump had today - I was quite busy through the day, so I missed it and will need to catch up... I'll see if I can find any video to share! ;D

member Shady, it appears you missed the following... surely you wouldn't just ignore it, right?
Today Dr. Fauci confirmed that the first time he and Dr. Birx recommended mitigation in the form of a shut down to the president, the president acted on their recommendation.

acted how? As I've stated several times now, U.S. State Governors hold the keys!

Quote
In actuality, the decision on when and how to reopen is not entirely Mr. Trump’s to make because he never ordered it closed. The stay-at-home edicts that have kept the vast bulk of Americans indoors were issued by governors state by state.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 12:58:00 am
The Waldo should work for CSIS!  :D

tread softly! We have pictures of you choking that/your chicken...
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 14, 2020, 01:11:56 am
tread softly! We have pictures of you choking that/your chicken...

As well as verbal confirmation.  :o
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 01:58:04 am
oh my! Announced earlier today, Trump's Council to Reopen America: raised concerns that it doesn't include any economists or public health experts has been tempered over the enthusiasm for having Jarvanka on the council. Thankfully Jared was available after completing his last assignment to implement a rigorous and comprehensive national COVID-19 testing system!

(https://i.imgur.com/ItY6l3i.png)(https://i.imgur.com/VC0p7Msl.jpg)
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Bubbermiley on April 14, 2020, 06:47:22 am
...orange man is bad.  Get some help for that.
Way to go, waldo. This is shady's go-to response when he is backed in a corner, he knows he is out of his league, and he just wants to get away. Next he will agree to disagree, and that will be that. You won.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 09:36:34 am
the ever astute and knowing Bubber!

.

timely that you use the word "dictatorship" - your described OrangeMan declared himself a dictator today - claiming he holds "total authority"!  Yes sir, that's quite the meltdown Trump had today - I was quite busy through the day, so I missed it and will need to catch up... I'll see if I can find any video to share! ;D

about that epic Trumpian meltdown from yesterday's Trump campaign event COVID-19 press briefing... a small segment of the total melt - video showcasing TotalAuthorityTrump:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhni0fYpnXI
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 10:32:40 am
during yesterday's epic TrumpMeltdown, Trump played a White House created video showcasing the mostMarvelous job he's done in managing COVID-19... for some reason, it appears staff editing inadvertently made absolutely NO MENTION of anything that occurred during February - uhhh, cause... nuthin' happened other than Trump golfing and holding campaign rallies!  ;D

another video snippet - a gem that features CBS report 'Paula Reid' asking... and pressing the point about Trump dithering:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1249827880751824902/pu/vid/960x540/nKaqPiPPgH5gDk9Y.mp4
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 10:34:41 am
Important read!

How China Deceived the WHO

Back in January, when the pandemic now consuming the world was still gathering force, a Berkeley research scientist named Xiao Qiang was monitoring China’s official statements about a new coronavirus then spreading through Wuhan and noticed something disturbing. Statements made by the World Health Organization, the international body that advises the world on handling health crises, often echoed China’s messages. “Particularly at the beginning, it was shocking when I again and again saw WHO’s [director-general], when he spoke to the press … almost directly quoting what I read on the Chinese government’s statements,”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 11:09:29 am
Trump acted sooner than Trudeau.  Whether it was shutting down travel from China and Europe, to talking with private sector companies to produce medical equipment and testing.  Every step of the way, Trudeau acted after Trump.  He’s not a leader, he’s a lap dog.

every step of the way? In terms of travel, yes, the U.S. did restrict travel earlier from China... but that didn't include flights from Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Korea, Japan or Singapore - countries that had identified COVID-19 cases... didn't include travelers recently in China but arriving into the U.S. via a third country. In terms of Europe, there is a 5-day date difference between the restrictions Canada put in place versus the U.S..

Trump keeps playing up the China travel restriction point... while ignoring the absolute fact that he/his admin did bupkis during the month of February - the time period that a travel restriction would have benefited in allowing for the development of, say... comprehensive testing measures - that to this day remain woefully absent across the U.S.. In any case, as follows, a prior post that gives a clearer presentation of the much ballyhooed Trump travel restrictions: 

Trump/admin and acolytes are in hyper-mode trying to impress the point that SaviourTrump's so-called "China travel ban - enacted Feb 2", is the "silver bullet" showcasing Trump's above reproach response in handling COVID-19!

facts:

- on Dec 31: China notified international health officials that it had detected an outbreak of a mysterious pneumonia-like illness
- on Jan 3: Dr. Robert R. Redfield, the C.D.C.’s director, notified Trump's Secretary of Health & Human Services (Alex Azar) that China had potentially discovered a new coronavirus
- from that Jan 3rd date on through to the deployment of Trump's so-called "China travel ban" enacted on Feb 2, at least 430,000 people arrived in the U.S. from China on direct flights; the bulk of these travelers entering at airports in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Newark and Detroit.
- the described "ban"... isn't a ban; rather, only foreign nationals travel has been restricted while some 40,000 travelers have since entered the U.S. on flights from China over the ~2 months since the Feb 2 enactment... comprised of American citizens, green-card holders and their non-citizen relatives.
- no travel restrictions were put in place for flights from Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Korea, Japan or Singapore
- no travel restrictions were put in place for persons recently in China but arriving into the U.S. via a third country
- no travel restrictions were applied to shipping carriers
- no travel restrictions from Europe were applied; more pointedly: U.S. Got More Confirmed “Index Cases” of Coronavirus From Europe Than From China (https://theintercept.com/2020/04/12/u-s-got-more-confirmed-index-cases-of-coronavirus-from-europe-than-from-china/)

Quote
What Trump doesn’t mention, however, is his administration’s failure to restrict travelers from Europe until it was too late. An investigation by The Intercept shows that travel from Europe was a key facilitator of the virus’s spread in the U.S. — a large amount of the first Covid-19 cases in the U.S. can be traced to Europe. While the China restrictions operated as an attempt to close the front door to infections from the nation where the pandemic started, the back door — travel from Europe, where the virus took hold particularly fiercely in Italy — remained wide open until the middle of March and can be connected to a surge of cases in the U.S., especially in the New York area.

of course, following this one-month delay between internal Trump admin notification and the enactment of travel restrictions, on through to the early days of March when testing first began in the U.S. ... on through to present day, the U.S. has still tested less than 1% of its entire population for COVID-19 - testing which doesn't include any contact tracing or antibody detection capabilities.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 11:10:14 am
Also China still won’t disclose the origin of the virus.  And on January 23rd, China shuts down ground travel and air travel from Wuhan, BUT NOT INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 11:23:35 am
Important read!

How China Deceived the WHO

Back in January, when the pandemic now consuming the world was still gathering force, a Berkeley research scientist named Xiao Qiang was monitoring China’s official statements about a new coronavirus then spreading through Wuhan and noticed something disturbing. Statements made by the World Health Organization, the international body that advises the world on handling health crises, often echoed China’s messages. “Particularly at the beginning, it was shocking when I again and again saw WHO’s [director-general], when he spoke to the press … almost directly quoting what I read on the Chinese government’s statements,”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

member latecomerShady, already covered. As follows a MuchMoreAccurate Important Read!

Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

Now calm yourself, cause the waldo ain't sayin the WHO doesn't warrant criticism; however, it should be legitimate/properly investigated and completely free of partisan political influence (willingly or not).

the waldo took just one of your links (from the Atlantic) for shytes&giggles; the whole article delves on a single WHO tweet from January 14; this one that references PRELIMINARY investigations... NO clear evidence:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZD6ux1C.png)

from an earlier post; one coincident to that same January 14 date showing actual notifications from the formal WHO COVID-19 timeline:
...
the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

Quote
14 January 2020 --- WHO's technical lead for the response noted in a press briefing there may have been limited human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus (in the 41 confirmed cases), mainly through family members, and that there was a risk of a possible wider outbreak. The lead also said that human-to-human transmission would not be surprising given our experience with SARS, MERS and other respiratory pathogens. 

22 January 2020 --- WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 12:02:57 pm
It gets even worse for The World Health Organization.

Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove suspected MERS-like transmission of the emerging COVID-19 outbreak in China, but the World Health Organization cast doubt on the risk of human-to-human transmission two weeks later in their public statement.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 12:04:05 pm
Also China still won’t disclose the origin of the virus.  And on January 23rd, China shuts down ground travel and air travel from Wuhan, BUT NOT INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS.

member Shady, as much as you're following Trumpist talking points, aspects of the virus have moved beyond the political and into the purview of scientists. I've put forward published study examples of early/ongoing analysis of known COVID-19 cases, where Chinese scientists are prominent in those studies. As I'm aware, at this point there is no consensus among scientists as to the origin point and source location of the virus... there is no definitive evidence to make such a determination. Or do you have a source to align with your conspiratorial slanted statement?

as I'm aware, China locked down the city of Wuhan (11 million people) on January 23rd... the same day other cities within the province of Hubei were also locked down (impacting upon a total population of 57 million people). As I interpret scheduled international flights for that day were allowed to leave. But hey now, your described "Orange Man" only initiated his much vaunted travel restrictions from China on February 2nd... geezaz, member Shady!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 12:06:52 pm
member Shady, as much as you're following Trumpist talking points, aspects of the virus have moved beyond the political and into the purview of scientists. I've put forward published study examples of early/ongoing analysis of known COVID-19 cases, where Chinese scientists are prominent in those studies. As I'm aware, at this point there is no consensus among scientists as to the origin point and source location of the virus... there is no definitive evidence to make such a determination. Or do you have a source to align with your conspiratorial slanted statement?

as I'm aware, China locked down the city of Wuhan (11 million people) on January 23rd... the same day other cities within the province of Hubei were also locked down (impacting upon a total population of 57 million people). As I interpret scheduled international flights for that day were allowed to leave. But hey now, your described "Orange Man" only initiated his much vaunted travel restrictions from China on February 2nd... geezaz, member Shady!
Believe it or not, it’s possible to not like Trump, but also hold China accountable for their actions.  It’s not an either or.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 12:23:39 pm
Believe it or not, it’s possible to not like Trump, but also hold China accountable for their actions.  It’s not an either or.

as a Trump cheerleader, how would you know? Again, warranted/legitimate criticism of China goes beyond partisan attempts to provide deflection/distraction for Trump's woeful mediocrity, dithering and absolute incompetence... it goes beyond parroting Trumpist talking points; goes beyond perpetually making unsubstantiated statements and claims.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 12:57:31 pm
as a Trump cheerleader, how would you know? Again, warranted/legitimate criticism of China goes beyond partisan attempts to provide deflection/distraction for Trump's woeful mediocrity, dithering and absolute incompetence... it goes beyond parroting Trumpist talking points; goes beyond perpetually making unsubstantiated statements and claims.
I’m not a Trump cheerleader, I’m just not suffering from TDS, so it may look like I am.  If anyone’s a cheerleader, it’s you for China.  Sad.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 01:00:51 pm
Has Trudeau thought of one original idea yet, or does he just copy what Trump does, but a week later.  I saw that he’s also coordinated with business to produce ventilators.  Hopefully the ones we have in our stockpile will be sufficient until then.  Oh wait there is no national stockpile.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 01:07:47 pm
I’m not a Trump cheerleader, I’m just not suffering from TDS, so it may look like I am.  If anyone’s a cheerleader, it’s you for China.  Sad.

as I said in response to your earlier Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) labeling, you sir, you are at DEFCON2 in TrumpianForceReadiness (TFR)!

you mistake my applying rigour to your unsubstantiated/misinforming statements & claims about China as leading a cheer; again, you are a most worthy Trumpian soldier following the latest emphasis to attempt to cast the WHO/China as deflecting points for Trump's incompetence and dithering in handling the COVID-19 pandemic.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 01:23:20 pm
as I said in response to your earlier Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) labeling, you sir, you are at DEFCON2 in TrumpianForceReadiness (TFR)!

you mistake my applying rigour to your unsubstantiated/misinforming statements & claims about China as leading a cheer; again, you are a most worthy Trumpian soldier following the latest emphasis to attempt to cast the WHO/China as deflecting points for Trump's incompetence and dithering in handling the COVID-19 pandemic.
Claims about China aren’t unsubstantiated.  I’ve cited them, and they’ve been widely covered by the press.  You still haven’t acknowledged China’s roll in this pandemic and their irresponsible behaviour.  All because you have some sick and twisted idea that it supports Trump.  Shame on you.  Shame on all of you for carrying water for an authoritarian dictatorship, trying to hold Trump more accountable than you do the source of the pandemic.  You all need to get some serious help.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 14, 2020, 01:28:49 pm
Believe it or not, it’s possible to not like Trump, but also hold China accountable for their actions.  It’s not an either or.

Sure it is but blaming China will do nothing to deal with this virus in North America.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 01:33:44 pm
Sure it is but blaming China will do nothing to deal with this virus in North America.
That wasn’t the discussion.  Re read previous posts.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: the_squid on April 14, 2020, 01:35:03 pm
Sure it is but blaming China will do nothing to deal with this virus in North America.

Deflecting from the crap job the Feds (Trump) are doing is the entire goal.

China may have responsibility to bear in this whole thing...  Kimmy makes excellent points in her post.  Shady is just deflecting in his.

The time to look at punitive measures on China is not now though.  It’s going to take many months to sort this out once we, as a world, get it under control.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 01:36:24 pm
Claims about China aren’t unsubstantiated.  I’ve cited them, and they’ve been widely covered by the press.  You still haven’t acknowledged China’s roll in this pandemic and their irresponsible behaviour.  All because you have some sick and twisted idea that it supports Trump.  Shame on you.  Shame on all of you for carrying water for an authoritarian dictatorship, trying to hold Trump more accountable than you do the source of the pandemic.  You all need to get some serious help.

your limited cites are nothing more than pasted go-fetch links. You ignored the following earlier - I appreciate responding to this request/challenge would require you to actually do some real research/analysis and articulate an actual argument... is that why you ignored it?  ;D

please substantiate your statement: "the inexcusably wrong assessment from the WHO"... what wrong assessment, made when?

your nattering about "muzzled scientists" needs contextual reference and a relevant timeline. I appreciate you're used to just sayin' whatever, but again, on this board substantiation is the norm. What's most pointedly needed is for you to provide the period of time over which said "irresponsible behaviour & scientist muzzling" occurred... that is to say, what impact it had.

you speak of, "China dealing with COVID all through December" - please provide details and a timeline that supports your statement, with particular attention given to your "all through December" reference. I've put forward numerous posts that have dated events within them... events that align with formal notifications made by China to international health organizations/the WHO; events that correlate with published scientific papers; the sharing of sequenced genome data, etc..

I look forward to reading your factual, legitimate and substantiated accounting of your claimed irresponsible behaviour/scientists muzzling by China - and, again, most pointedly how that aligns/fits within the broader public knowledge of China notifications and actions taken to aid foreign governments/international health organizations/scientific community.

China was slammed for initial COVID-19 secrecy, but its scientists led the way in tackling the virus (https://sciencebusiness.net/international-news/china-was-slammed-initial-covid-19-secrecy-its-scientists-led-way-tackling-virus)

Quote
The accusation that the Chinese government delayed in letting the world know about the COVID-19 outbreak has become a political weapon in countries including the US, the UK and Canada.

But China’s scientists have won international praise for hitting several key milestones in understanding the novel, fast-moving virus.

Chinese leaders were seen as slow to react to the outbreak that began in the city of Wuhan, suppressing information and even punishing those who raised the alarm.

There was an early cover up in Wuhan, perhaps a few days to a week, before the threat was accepted. We will never know if faster action in those first days could have averted the outbreak,” said Ian Jones, professor of biomedical sciences at Reading University.

Despite the initial slow reaction from the government, “There has been a very open dialogue [since] and many research findings from the Chinese experience are now appearing,” says Jones.

In January, a team led by Yong-Zhen Zhang, of the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre & School of Public Health, published the initial viral genome on two open-access sites, drawing praise for the swiftest sequencing effort ever. Later that month, Chinese doctors and scientists reported the first description of the new disease in the Lancet medical journal.

“Under immense pressure, as the epidemic exploded around them, they took time to write up their findings in a foreign language and seek publication in a medical journal thousands of miles away. Their rapid and rigorous work was an urgent warning to the world. We owe those scientists enormous thanks,” said Richard Horton, Lancet editor.

At the University of Hong Kong, researchers are developing a COVID-19 vaccine, novel screening agents, diagnostic tests and models of infection to trace the source and help prevent future occurrences.

“[We] were among the first teams in the world to produce a detailed cluster report, epidemiology report, electron microscope images and mathematical model of the potential spread of the virus,” said Zhang Xiang, president and vice-chancellor of the university. “Most Hong Kong residents still remember the experience of living through SARS in 2003, several instances of avian influenza, MERS, and now COVID-19.”

Any disagreements over how countries have managed the epidemic has not trickled down into labs, says Michael Head, a senior research fellow in global health in the University of Southampton. “Whilst there will always be the politics of mistrust, I think, broadly, we’re seeing reasonable cooperation between China and elsewhere,” he said.

The Chinese have been leading the way in publishing open-access evidence on case management, genomics and numerous areas of public health and epidemiology, which has been vital in informing the response in more or less every country.”
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 01:37:31 pm
Deflecting from the crap job the Feds (Trump) are doing is the entire goal.

China may have responsibility to bear in this whole thing...  Kimmy makes excellent points in her post.  Shady is just deflecting in his.

The time to look at punitive measures on China is not now though.  It’s going to take many months to sort this out once we, as a world, get it under control.
If Trump did a crappy job than so did Trudeau.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 01:39:11 pm
your limited cites are nothing more than pasted go-fetch links. You ignored the following earlier - I appreciate responding to this request/challenge would require you to actually do some real research/analysis and articulate an actual argument... is that why you ignored it?  ;D
My cites aren’t limited, your ability to interpret them is though.  The Atlantic article goes into great detail.  If you don’t wish to read it, that’s on you.  Keep carrying water for China.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 14, 2020, 01:47:39 pm
My cites aren’t limited, your ability to interpret them is though.  The Atlantic article goes into great detail.  If you don’t wish to read it, that’s on you.  Keep carrying water for China.

now that's the Shady I recall! You simply ignore rebuffs of your nonsense - again, as I said, I'd previously addressed your go-fetch link. Here, will you ignore this again?  ;D

Important read!

How China Deceived the WHO

Back in January, when the pandemic now consuming the world was still gathering force, a Berkeley research scientist named Xiao Qiang was monitoring China’s official statements about a new coronavirus then spreading through Wuhan and noticed something disturbing. Statements made by the World Health Organization, the international body that advises the world on handling health crises, often echoed China’s messages. “Particularly at the beginning, it was shocking when I again and again saw WHO’s [director-general], when he spoke to the press … almost directly quoting what I read on the Chinese government’s statements,”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

member latecomerShady, already covered. As follows a MuchMoreAccurate Important Read!

Well turns out the WHO is a corrupt organization that worries about politics not just global health and covered for China when it was lying about COVID.  The WHO needs to be held accountable for the lives it has cost based on the bad advice it gave the world.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

Now calm yourself, cause the waldo ain't sayin the WHO doesn't warrant criticism; however, it should be legitimate/properly investigated and completely free of partisan political influence (willingly or not).

the waldo took just one of your links (from the Atlantic) for shytes&giggles; the whole article delves on a single WHO tweet from January 14; this one that references PRELIMINARY investigations... NO clear evidence:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZD6ux1C.png)

from an earlier post; one coincident to that same January 14 date showing actual notifications from the formal WHO COVID-19 timeline:
...
the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

Quote
14 January 2020 --- WHO's technical lead for the response noted in a press briefing there may have been limited human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus (in the 41 confirmed cases), mainly through family members, and that there was a risk of a possible wider outbreak. The lead also said that human-to-human transmission would not be surprising given our experience with SARS, MERS and other respiratory pathogens. 

22 January 2020 --- WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.


you're so full of shyte and the waste of time I've always associated you with! My time-wasting allotment has run out for now - CU later!  ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 14, 2020, 01:52:44 pm
now that's the Shady I recall! You simply ignore rebuffs of your nonsense - again, as I said, I'd previously addressed your go-fetch link. Here, will you ignore this again?  ;D

member latecomerShady, already covered. As follows a MuchMoreAccurate Important Read!

Now calm yourself, cause the waldo ain't sayin the WHO doesn't warrant criticism; however, it should be legitimate/properly investigated and completely free of partisan political influence (willingly or not).

the waldo took just one of your links (from the Atlantic) for shytes&giggles; the whole article delves on a single WHO tweet from January 14; this one that references PRELIMINARY investigations... NO clear evidence:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZD6ux1C.png)

from an earlier post; one coincident to that same January 14 date showing actual notifications from the formal WHO COVID-19 timeline:


you're so full of shyte and the waste of time I've always associated you with! My time-wasting allotment has run out for now - CU later!  ;D
The only one full of shyte is China.  And you for defending them.  It’s truly pathetic.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Omni on April 14, 2020, 01:56:16 pm
If Trump did a crappy job than so did Trudeau.

Is that how the US has over 28 times the deaths with a little over 8 times our population?
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 15, 2020, 02:48:02 am
now that's the Shady I recall! You simply ignore rebuffs of your nonsense - again, as I said, I'd previously addressed your go-fetch link. Here, will you ignore this again?  ;D

you're so full of shyte and the waste of time I've always associated you with! My time-wasting allotment has run out for now - CU later!  ;D

Funny but no. the Shade Man is 100% right here.  He provided a real cite: The Atlantic, a well-respected, left-leaning source (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/). For you to dismiss this as a "go-fetch link" just smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

Since the waldo's time is apparently too precious to waste on respectable sources like The Atlantic, the kimmo will parse key portions of it:

Quote
Back in January, when the pandemic now consuming the world was still gathering force, a Berkeley research scientist named Xiao Qiang was monitoring China’s official statements about a new coronavirus then spreading through Wuhan and noticed something disturbing. Statements made by the World Health Organization, the international body that advises the world on handling health crises, often echoed China’s messages. “Particularly at the beginning, it was shocking when I again and again saw WHO’s [director-general], when he spoke to the press … almost directly quoting what I read on the Chinese government’s statements,” he told me.

This, we now know, was catastrophically untrue, and in the months since, the global pandemic has put much of the world under an unprecedented lockdown and killed more than 100,000 people.

(...)

Even in January, when Chinese authorities were downplaying the extent of the virus, doctors at the epicenter of the outbreak in Wuhan reportedly observed human-to-human transmission, not least by contracting the disease themselves. In the most famous example, Dr. Li Wenliang was censured for “spreading rumors” after trying to alert other doctors of the new respiratory ailment; he later died of the virus himself at age 33. China now claims him as a martyr. Asked about Li’s case at a press conference, the executive director of the WHO’s Health Emergencies Programme, Michael Ryan, said, “We all mourn the loss of a fellow physician and colleague” but stopped short of condemning China for accusing him. “There is an understandable confusion that occurs at the beginning of an epidemic,” Ryan added. “So we need to be careful to label misunderstanding versus misinformation; there's a difference. People can misunderstand and they can overreact.”

Those lost early weeks also coincided with the Chinese New Year, for which millions of people travel to visit family and friends. “That’s when millions of Wuhan people were misinformed,” Xiao said. “Then they traveled all over China, all over the world.”

The Atlantic article explains that, in short, the WHO's information is only as good as the regimes that it depends on for information, and in the case of dogshit regimes like the PRC, the information coming from the WHO is pretty near worthless. For China to have told WHO in mid January that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission is simply a bald-faced lie.  The WHO reliance on statements like that from member organizations is a structural deficiency of WHO. And for Canada to take that statement from WHO as a factual basis for the formulation of public policy is sheer idiocy.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 15, 2020, 03:45:19 am
While I am fully aware that the Republitards are doing this for narrative purposes (to make it something that "they" did to "us", to shift attention away from their own shoddy response) I don't think we should be in any rush to forget China's role in creating this disaster. 

Firstly we can thank China's prolific animal trafficking trade and the idiocy of "traditional Chinese medicine" for the fact that this virus ever came into contact with humans.

And secondly let's remember that China's early response to the outbreak was to jail people for saying that there was an outbreak. As much as we mock the Trump administration's handling of this, let's keep in mind that China's was 1000 times worse. They have a lot to answer for.

I think China should be paying reparations when this is over, especially to Italy and the other hardest-hit countries.

Ooooh, it's not just Kimmy saying this.

Former Liberal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler:
Quote
Former Liberal justice minister Irwin Cotler, a leading international champion of human rights, is blaming the Chinese government for the scale and spread of the COVID-19 pandemic, saying he believes transmission of the novel coronavirus could have been dramatically reduced if China had acted earlier.

He also says the world would have been far more prepared to handle the outbreak if Chinese Communist Party officials had acted sooner, alleging government authorities covered up and hid early news of the outbreak.

Mr. Cotler is urging Canada to impose Magnitsky-style sanctions on Chinese officials who mistreated or silenced whistleblowers, including medical staff and citizens, in the early days of the pandemic. The Sergei Magnitsky Law allows Canada to impose asset freezes and travel bans on human rights abusers around the world.

The former minister said he expects there will be lawsuits to try and seek reparations from China but he said governments such as Canada’s need do to their part to hold Beijing accountable.

“The Chinese Communist Party has to be held accountable through naming and shaming, in the court of public opinion, in actual courts of law through international tort actions, and through Magnitsky sanctions,” Mr. Cotler said in an interview.

“We can target those who have been responsible for the disappearances of the doctors, such as Dr. Ai Fen, director of the emergency department at the Central Hospital of Wuhan, who has now disappeared."

Dr. Fen shared her early concerns about the virus with colleagues and media. After Dr. Ai shared the information, eight doctors were arrested, including Li Wenliang, another whistleblower who later died of COVID-19.

Mr. Cotler said China kept information from the public at a crucial early period and cited a British study by the University of Southampton which suggested that 95 per cent of infections could have been avoided if China had acted three weeks earlier.

The virus outbreak began in Wuhan, China, in late 2019.

“For 40 days, President Xi Jinping’s Communist Party of China concealed, destroyed, falsified and fabricated information about the rampant spread of COVID-19 through its state-sanctioned massive surveillance and suppression of data; its misrepresentation of information; its silencing and criminalizing of its dissent; and its disappearance of its whistleblowers,” Mr. Cotler wrote along with Judith Abitan, executive director of the Montreal-based Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights. Their column was published by the Times of Israel as well as by The Globe and Mail.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-former-liberal-justice-minister-urges-sanctions-against-chinese/


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 08:01:55 am
After tiring of Federal inaction, BC is now requiring anyone arriving from a foreign country to have an isolation plan and if they don't, the province is quarantining them on its own and doing followups on those who are supposed to be self isolating.
And the Feds followed suit shortly after...  same restrictions.

My only concern is that Canada acted later than it should have due to humming and hawing over the political consequences of restricting people’s behaviour/movements, or what it thought Chinese-Canadians might think.   Once this pandemic is done, hopefully the opposition parties get some answers. i don’t hold much hope that the NDP would be less PC though.
Dix was expressing his frustration over this for some time before the province finally gave up and did it on its own.
I can only wonder if the feds did it because they didn't want to be shown up by their BC counterparts.
You do have to wonder if they would have otherwise done it.
It makes me really effing PO'd at the thought of a leader who would rather risk people's lives than offend people.  Our PM has a psychological disease and I hope after this it makes him well cured of it.  I'm fed up of it.

member wilber and pile-on-posse: March 25 - under the Federal Quarantine Act, all travelers returning to Canada — with the exception of "essential workers (eg. truckers, health care workers)", will have to enter a mandatory 14 days of isolation under the Quarantine Act whether or not they have symptoms of coronavirus. As the waldo understands, if a designated Quarantine Officer believes that a traveler has refused to isolate themselves, they can ask a peace officer to arrest the traveler and bring them into quarantine.

now certainly, it is the prerogative of any province to enact mandatory isolation requirements under their own 'emergency measures act'... like B.C. did on April 10th. But yes, as the waldo understands, on April 14th, the federal government did update it's March 25th order to provide additional flexibility considerations: to give border agents the ability to assign a self-isolation order (rather than a mandatory quarantine) if a traveler can present an acceptable self-isolation plan.

as the waldo understands, following the dynamics at play, these self-isolation plan requirements are being considered in relation to an expected increase in "snowbird returnees"... those who chose to ignore the early March 'suggestion' from the federal government that they return home (which required self-isolation for 14 days); chose to instead ride out their stay to align with the allowed maximum ~6-month away period... those choosing sunnier climes over returning to self-isolation.

member wilber and pile-on posse: details matter... but yes, they do take some degree of effort to properly understand/present.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 08:34:37 am
yes, member kimmy! You've stayed out of this thread long enough to allow the multiple waldo azzWhoopin's you took to be buried... would you like the waldo to resurrect them! I'm keen to have you to extend upon your SquirrelChops and, in particular, have you elaborate further on trends and their relevance to studies presented!  ;D

Funny but no. the Shade Man is 100% right here.  He provided a real cite: The Atlantic, a well-respected, left-leaning source. For you to dismiss this as a "go-fetch link" just smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

a go-fetch link is simply one dropped without offering anything from it; typically personal comment speaking to some particular point within the link, one ideally quoted. It's exactly what member SelfIso did twice (each time simply pasting 4 links without including any personal comment or related quotation from the links... same for member Shady, who simply pasted in one of the same links SelfIso initially provided and stated "Important Read". Of course, this is the way of the lazyAzz who can't be bothered to actually read/do research/articulate points of interest/concern/relevance/etc..

Since the waldo's time is apparently too precious to waste on respectable sources like The Atlantic, the kimmo will parse key portions of it:

The Atlantic article explains that, in short, the WHO's information is only as good as the regimes that it depends on for information, and in the case of dogshit regimes like the PRC, the information coming from the WHO is pretty near worthless. For China to have told WHO in mid January that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission is simply a bald-faced lie.  The WHO reliance on statements like that from member organizations is a structural deficiency of WHO. And for Canada to take that statement from WHO as a factual basis for the formulation of public policy is sheer idiocy.

being the blowhard you are, you wouldn't take the effort/time to understand that the WHO has WHO field personnel in China... from the earliest days. As much as you want to blindly, lock-step, parrot the false narrative, the WHO scientists aren't public policy extensions of any country, blindly relaying propaganda statements from a government. Of course, you can't bother to take the time to read my detailed response to member Shady... the detailed rebuff of his most "complex analysis" where he states nothing more than "Important Read".

I won't bother to repeat my rebuff (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/the-world/outbreak-culture/?message=61646) here again... you haven't the intellectual honesty to review it properly or the wherewithal to understand it anyway!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 08:54:08 am
While I am fully aware that the Republitards are doing this for narrative purposes (to make it something that "they" did to "us", to shift attention away from their own shoddy response) I don't think we should be in any rush to forget China's role in creating this disaster. 

Firstly we can thank China's prolific animal trafficking trade and the idiocy of "traditional Chinese medicine" for the fact that this virus ever came into contact with humans.

And secondly let's remember that China's early response to the outbreak was to jail people for saying that there was an outbreak. As much as we mock the Trump administration's handling of this, let's keep in mind that China's was 1000 times worse. They have a lot to answer for.

I think China should be paying reparations when this is over, especially to Italy and the other hardest-hit countries.
Ooooh, it's not just Kimmy saying this.


I've provided several prior posts that included actual timeline events of note/significance... factual based! This following prior post has a scientific perspective; one extending upon and separating itself from the overt politicization underway - scientists in the know/leading the way.

China was slammed for initial COVID-19 secrecy, but its scientists led the way in tackling the virus (https://sciencebusiness.net/international-news/china-was-slammed-initial-covid-19-secrecy-its-scientists-led-way-tackling-virus)

Quote
The accusation that the Chinese government delayed in letting the world know about the COVID-19 outbreak has become a political weapon in countries including the US, the UK and Canada.

But China’s scientists have won international praise for hitting several key milestones in understanding the novel, fast-moving virus.

Chinese leaders were seen as slow to react to the outbreak that began in the city of Wuhan, suppressing information and even punishing those who raised the alarm.

There was an early cover up in Wuhan, perhaps a few days to a week, before the threat was accepted. We will never know if faster action in those first days could have averted the outbreak,” said Ian Jones, professor of biomedical sciences at Reading University.

Despite the initial slow reaction from the government, “There has been a very open dialogue [since] and many research findings from the Chinese experience are now appearing,” says Jones.

In January, a team led by Yong-Zhen Zhang, of the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre & School of Public Health, published the initial viral genome on two open-access sites, drawing praise for the swiftest sequencing effort ever. Later that month, Chinese doctors and scientists reported the first description of the new disease in the Lancet medical journal.

“Under immense pressure, as the epidemic exploded around them, they took time to write up their findings in a foreign language and seek publication in a medical journal thousands of miles away. Their rapid and rigorous work was an urgent warning to the world. We owe those scientists enormous thanks,” said Richard Horton, Lancet editor.

At the University of Hong Kong, researchers are developing a COVID-19 vaccine, novel screening agents, diagnostic tests and models of infection to trace the source and help prevent future occurrences.

“[We] were among the first teams in the world to produce a detailed cluster report, epidemiology report, electron microscope images and mathematical model of the potential spread of the virus,” said Zhang Xiang, president and vice-chancellor of the university. “Most Hong Kong residents still remember the experience of living through SARS in 2003, several instances of avian influenza, MERS, and now COVID-19.”

Any disagreements over how countries have managed the epidemic has not trickled down into labs, says Michael Head, a senior research fellow in global health in the University of Southampton. “Whilst there will always be the politics of mistrust, I think, broadly, we’re seeing reasonable cooperation between China and elsewhere,” he said.

“The Chinese have been leading the way in publishing open-access evidence on case management, genomics and numerous areas of public health and epidemiology, which has been vital in informing the response in more or less every country
.”
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: wilber on April 15, 2020, 09:02:14 am
member wilber and pile-on-posse: March 25 - under the Federal Quarantine Act, all travelers returning to Canada — with the exception of "essential workers (eg. truckers, health care workers)", will have to enter a mandatory 14 days of isolation under the Quarantine Act whether or not they have symptoms of coronavirus. As the waldo understands, if a designated Quarantine Officer believes that a traveler has refused to isolate themselves, they can ask a peace officer to arrest the traveler and bring them into quarantine.

now certainly, it is the prerogative of any province to enact mandatory isolation requirements under their own 'emergency measures act'... like B.C. did on April 10th. But yes, as the waldo understands, on April 14th, the federal government did update it's March 25th order to provide additional flexibility considerations: to give border agents the ability to assign a self-isolation order (rather than a mandatory quarantine) if a traveler can present an acceptable self-isolation plan.

as the waldo understands, following the dynamics at play, these self-isolation plan requirements are being considered in relation to an expected increase in "snowbird returnees"... those who chose to ignore the early March 'suggestion' from the federal government that they return home (which required self-isolation for 14 days); chose to instead ride out their stay to align with the allowed maximum ~6-month away period... those choosing sunnier climes over returning to self-isolation.

member wilber and pile-on posse: details matter... but yes, they do take some degree of effort to properly understand/present.

Yes waldo, the government imposed the quarantine act and then has done SFA to enforce it. It has been mere window dressing.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6786614/covid-quarantine-enforcement-cowichan-couple/
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: MH on April 15, 2020, 09:07:52 am
Waldo - you should really stand down with your aggro-Liberal take.  It turns the discussion into a zero-sum game of the dumbest kind.

The fact is that people on all sides should be adding to each others' arguments to look at what went wrong here.  The Atlantic is a respected institution as kimmy points out.  I think I found your rebuff but with all of the aggressive attack language festooned through it it's hard to read.

You have a good ability to be analytical but your power to persuade is reduced with your style, I find.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 09:23:16 am
Yes waldo, the government imposed the quarantine act and then has done SFA to enforce it. It has been mere window dressing.

sure, sure - and you believe a self-isolation plan is a guarantee. In any case, your limited analysis somehow failed to tie in the significance of why these isolation plan requirements are now coming forward in the ever changing dynamics at play - you know, the anticipated "surge" of returning snowbirds that chose not to follow the early March federal directive/suggestion to return home (a return that required a 14-day self-isolation).
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 09:32:45 am
Waldo - you should really stand down with your aggro-Liberal take.  It turns the discussion into a zero-sum game of the dumbest kind.

The fact is that people on all sides should be adding to each others' arguments to look at what went wrong here.  The Atlantic is a respected institution as kimmy points out.  I think I found your rebuff but with all of the aggressive attack language festooned through it it's hard to read.

You have a good ability to be analytical but your power to persuade is reduced with your style, I find.

get a grip! Little of this thread has concentrated on the Canadian federal government - but nice of you to come down from your mountain and dispense!

yes, the Atlantic is a reputable legitimate source... but as I detailed in my counter, the Atlantic journalist got it wrong... the complete emphasis in that article was a single tweet that gives no allowance for the generalized, non-specific phrasing used within it. What I detailed were, in exact day-alignment with that tweet, actual notifications from the formal WHO COVID-19 timeline... notifications that counter any false interpretations being made from the single TWEET! Of course, those inclined will always blindly parrot politicized talking points intended to provide alternate attack outlets while purposely giving cover for Trump's incompetence/dithering!
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 15, 2020, 10:32:21 am
Well, well, well...China knew all along, and kept it to themselves.  All of this could be been avoided..
[attach=1]
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 15, 2020, 10:38:52 am
Well, well, well...China knew all along, and kept it to themselves.  All of this could be been avoided..
(Attachment Link)
Yup. So what are we going to do about it? I know let's all rush back to work so we can sell them as much oil as we possibly can.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 15, 2020, 10:40:51 am
Yup. So what are we going to do about it? I know let's all rush back to work so we can sell them as much oil as we possibly can.
We’re going to cancel some of our debt held by China.  That’s what we’re going to do.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 10:43:24 am
member Shady, your described 'Orange Man' has been attacking the WHO for praising China’s coronavirus response... while announcing he’s freezing U.S. funding for the WHO... in the time of a pandemic, freezing funding? Oh my member Shady, oh my!

wait, what? Geezaz, your described 'Orange Man' himself repeatedly praised China early on - look at those dates!:

(https://i.imgur.com/7roSpcr.jpg)

now... CNN has put together a group video of 4 separate video extracts of Trump praising China/Xi... still waiting for it to be posted, hey member Shady! Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 15, 2020, 10:46:00 am
member Shady, your described 'Orange Man' has been attacking the WHO for praising China’s coronavirus response... while announcing he’s freezing U.S. funding for the WHO... in the time of a pandemic, freezing funding? Oh my member Shady, oh my!

wait, what? Geezaz, your described 'Orange Man' himself repeatedly praised China early on - look at those dates!:

(https://i.imgur.com/7roSpcr.jpg)

now... CNN has put together a group video of 4 separate video extracts of Trump praising China/Xi... still waiting for it to be posted, hey member Shady! Stay tuned.
Yes I know, orange man bad.   Regardless, nobody knew the extent that China and the WHO were corrupt.  How about acting on new information waldo?  Or is that difficult for you?[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: eyeball on April 15, 2020, 11:06:00 am
We’re going to cancel some of our debt held by China.  That’s what we’re going to do.
Is that where my compensation will come from? Because I don't want no steenkin' handout. This wasn't my fault.

And we're just going to sell them some of our oil or as much as possible?  No intention whatsoever of even attempting to spur China to change its regime or more specifically do something about it's governments sneakiness?

I could care less if Chinese people wish to live under a president for life but they do need to get their governance in far better order. I wouldn't follow the example we're setting though.  We suck at it too.
 
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: kimmy on April 15, 2020, 11:07:47 am
yes, member kimmy! You've stayed out of this thread long enough to allow the multiple waldo azzWhoopin's you took to be buried... would you like the waldo to resurrect them! I'm keen to have you to extend upon your SquirrelChops and, in particular, have you elaborate further on trends and their relevance to studies presented!  ;D

As I mentioned elsewhere, I was pretty tied up in the days following the end of my quarantine. I didn't have time over the Easter weekend to spend online.

But don't worry, I'll get around to your posts (most of which appear to be just more restatements of your efforts to use that one data point on your graph to try to deflect attention away from China's live animal trafficking, or asking for itemized lists of data that you don't actually need.)

And if you have any particular zingers you want me to respond to, feel free to highlight them.


 -k
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 15, 2020, 11:11:39 am
Is that where my compensation will come from? Because I don't want no steenkin' handout. This wasn't my fault.

And we're just going to sell them some of our oil or as much as possible?  No intention whatsoever of even attempting to spur China to change its regime or more specifically do something about it's governments sneakiness?

I could care less if Chinese people wish to live under a president for life but they do need to get their governance in far better order. I wouldn't follow the example we're setting though.  We suck at it too.
 
*old man yells at tree*
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 11:15:28 am
FFS member Shady - learn how to size images!  ;D

Yes I know, orange man bad.   Regardless, nobody knew the extent that China and the WHO were corrupt.  How about acting on new information waldo?  Or is that difficult for you?

you've not shown anything to support your continued statements labeling the WHO as corrupt! As for "new information", did you actually read your linked article that emphasizes a delay between January 14-January 20? Here, again, let the waldo repeat (for the nthteentime) the following:

the mid-January notifications from the WHO... that I'm aware of:

Quote
14 January 2020 --- WHO's technical lead for the response noted in a press briefing there may have been limited human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus (in the 41 confirmed cases), mainly through family members, and that there was a risk of a possible wider outbreak. The lead also said that human-to-human transmission would not be surprising given our experience with SARS, MERS and other respiratory pathogens. 

22 January 2020 --- WHO mission to China issued a statement saying that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan but more investigation was needed to understand the full extent of transmission.

it's all about evidence! What actual evidence, scientific evidence, exists to legitimately, with authority, make pronouncements about human-to-human transmission... with resultant/expected actions therein? As I put forward, the following was the first formal substantive scientific paper (published January 29) that had the evidence for said human-to-human transmission... I expect earlier recognition of this (prior to the formal publish date of Jan 29) is what prompted the WHO to issue its January 22nd notification:

Here, in regards human-to-human transmission and evidence therein, this paper reference as originally published January 29 (in the New England Journal of Medicine) - as I'm aware, the first substantive, comprehensive study analyzing the first 425 laboratory confirmed cases of persons (from Wuhan) known to have contracted COVID-19:

(https://i.imgur.com/58BZ6hr.png)

like I said, I bring receipts. So... this formal published study (Early Transmission Dynamics in Wuhan, China, of Novel Coronavirus–Infected Pneumonia (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2001316?query=featured_home)), appears on January 29 - confirmation of, with evidence, human-to-human transmission.


Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: Shady on April 15, 2020, 11:17:20 am
FFS member Shady - learn how to size images!  ;D

you've not shown anything to support your continued statements labeling the WHO as corrupt! As for "new information", did you actually read your linked article that emphasizes a delay between January 14-January 20? Here, again, let the waldo repeat (for the nthteentime) the following:


it's all about evidence! What actual evidence, scientific evidence, exists to legitimately, with authority, make pronouncements about human-to-human transmission... with resultant/expected actions therein? As I put forward, the following was the first formal substantive scientific paper (published January 29) that had the evidence for said human-to-human transmission... I expect earlier recognition of this (prior to the formal publish date of Jan 29) is what prompted the WHO to issue its January 22nd notification:
Why can’t you just admit that China lied?  The press has evidence now and is reporting it.  You’re the equivalent of Baghdad Bob, err Beijing Bob! 😀😀😀
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 11:22:06 am
yes, member kimmy! You've stayed out of this thread long enough to allow the multiple waldo azzWhoopin's you took to be buried... would you like the waldo to resurrect them! I'm keen to have you to extend upon your SquirrelChops and, in particular, have you elaborate further on trends and their relevance to studies presented!  ;D
As I mentioned elsewhere, I was pretty tied up in the days following the end of my quarantine. I didn't have time over the Easter weekend to spend online.

But don't worry, I'll get around to your posts (most of which appear to be just more restatements of your efforts to use that one data point on your graph to try to deflect attention away from China's live animal trafficking, or asking for itemized lists of data that you don't actually need.)

And if you have any particular zingers you want me to respond to, feel free to highlight them.

how intellectually dishonest of you to single out this point from my post... while ignoring the other part that counters your other nonsense!

in any case, I relish you coming back on those prior posts; you're so clearly out-of-your league by nattering on about basic trending and its relevance to those/that particular study. Let's have you show your point-of-sale s/w chops - unleash the mighty Squirrel!  ;D
Title: Re: Outbreak Culture
Post by: waldo on April 15, 2020, 11:31:02 am
Why can’t you just admit that China lied?  The press has evidence now and is reporting it.  You’re the equivalent of Baghdad Bob, err Beijing Bob! 😀😀😀

you should read... for a change! I've quoted that scientific perspective that speaks to a few days to a week "delay" period before acceptance... threat acceptance was realized; again in your monumental effort to carry water for your described 'Orange Man', you can't manage to distinguish politicization from science and how scientific evidence provides the authority for political pronouncements.

China was slammed for initial COVID-19 secrecy, but its scientists led the way in tackling the virus (https://sciencebusiness.net/international-news/china-was-slammed-initial-covid-19-secrecy-its-scientists-led-way-tackling-virus)

Quote
The accusation that the Chinese government delayed in letting the world know about the COVID-19 outbreak has become a political weapon in countries including the US, the UK and Canada.

But China’s scientists have won international praise for hitting several key milestones in understanding the novel, fast-moving virus.

Chinese leaders were seen as slow to react to the outbreak that began in the city of Wuhan, suppressing information and even punishing those who raised the alarm.

There was an early cover up in Wuhan, perhaps a few days to a week, before the threat was accepted. We will never know if faster action in those first days could have averted the outbreak,” said Ian Jones, professor of biomedical sciences at Reading University.

Despite the initial slow reaction from the government, “There has been a very open dialogue [since] and many research findings from the Chinese experience are now appearing,” says Jones.

In January, a team led by Yong-Zhen Zhang, of the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre & School of Public Health, published the initial viral genome on two open-access sites, drawing praise for the swiftest sequencing effort ever. Later that month, Chinese doctors and scientists reported the first description of the new disease in the Lancet medical journal.

“Under imme