Canadian Politics Today

Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: Michael Hardner on December 05, 2019, 05:10:37 am


Title: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 05, 2019, 05:10:37 am
Or for this government ... day BY day.

Minority government boots up today, and CBC radio says our main issues will be:

- National Unity
- Carbon policy
- Middle class tax cuts

Really it seems to me we are less and less like the US every day.  I would like us to have First Nations policy more front and centre too.

And... how long will this government last ?  And how long with Scheer last ?

More fun boredom to come ! :D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on December 05, 2019, 07:25:33 am
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 05, 2019, 11:21:34 am
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.
Or maybe they could just do their jobs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: segnosaur on December 05, 2019, 05:04:14 pm
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.
Problem with that scenario: Elections cost money, and it might be hard for any of the parties to fundraise so soon after the last election. (The problem would be worse for the Liberals, since the conservatives tend to collect the most contributions.)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on December 08, 2019, 12:24:32 pm
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.

Highly unlikely: Scheer is a lame duck, under fire from within his own party to step down. He would only stand to lose support.
And while that may seem like a good time for Trudeau to strike, it's unlikely that he would get support from any other parties to call an election for such predatory reasons, when all opposition parties prefer that Trudeau not have a majority.

It's important to remind ourselves that elections are not about politics: They're about governance.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on December 08, 2019, 12:39:08 pm
No, elections are about winning. Why do you assume Sheer would lose. If he learns from the last campaign, he could win. Besides, what does he have to lose? A lot changes during the 5 weeks of a campaign.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2019, 01:27:18 pm
No, elections are about winning. Why do you assume Sheer would lose. If he learns from the last campaign, he could win. Besides, what does he have to lose? A lot changes during the 5 weeks of a campaign.
They are elected to govern. Governments that call elections just for political advantage should be punished.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 08, 2019, 02:44:52 pm
They are elected to govern. Governments that call elections just for political advantage should be punished.

That is what I said in fall 2008.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on December 08, 2019, 03:44:52 pm
No, elections are about winning. Why do you assume Sheer would lose. If he learns from the last campaign, he could win. Besides, what does he have to lose? A lot changes during the 5 weeks of a campaign.

Elections are about forming a government.

Scheer has lost support among his own party members. They are trying to get rid of him, but he refuses to step down.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2019, 07:28:47 pm
That is what I said in fall 2008.

Both parties have done it. Chretien smelled blood when Stockwell Day became the Alliance leader and wasted no time capitalizing on that weakness. On the other hand, fixed election dates can't apply to minorities because they would give the opposition parties sole control over forcing an election. Right now there is valid no reason to call an election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2019, 08:29:31 pm
Jody Wilson-Raybauld thinks she deserves governing-party sized offices despite the fact that she is on the very bottom of the list to get an office.   What a buffoon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wilson-raybould-rota-speaker-1.5395567
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 02:18:55 pm
Morneau says the economy is rosy but will increase debt by 55 billion over the next two years anyway. I though the budget was supposed to balance itself by now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 16, 2019, 06:56:59 pm
Morneau says the economy is rosy but will increase debt by 55 billion over the next two years anyway. I though the budget was supposed to balance itself by now.

Not when they promise tax breaks....
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 07:35:29 pm
Not when they promise tax breaks....

I know, so why BS people about balancing budgets? They never had any intention of balancing a budget and don't in future.
Trudeau is on track for adding 105 billion to the debt in five years with no commitment to ever balancing a budget. That's just as well because based on past performance, it wouldn't mean anything anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 16, 2019, 07:40:51 pm
I know, so why BS people about balancing budgets? They never had any intention of balancing a budget and don't in future.
Trudeau is on track for adding 105 billion to the debt in five years with no commitment to ever balancing a budget. That's just as well because based on past performance, it wouldn't mean anything anyway.

The Cons were no different....   promising tax breaks and no way to pay for them.  They were absolutely no different than the Libs this election.  Plus, they were even worse under Harper.   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 07:48:55 pm
The Cons were no different....   promising tax breaks and no way to pay for them.  They were absolutely no different than the Libs this election.  Plus, they were even worse under Harper.

Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Trudeau also hasn't had a recession to deal with, let alone the biggest one since 1929.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 08:00:57 pm
Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Trudeau also hasn't had a recession to deal with, let alone the biggest one since 1929.

Trudeau hasn't, at least so far, robbed the "rainy day fund" in a feeble last ditch attempt to try and show a budget surplus as Harper did after all those years of deficits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:05:07 pm
Trudeau hasn't, at least so far, robbed the "rainy day fund" in a feeble last ditch attempt to try and show a budget surplus as Harper did after all those years of deficits.

What rainy day fund?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 16, 2019, 08:09:42 pm
Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Trudeau also hasn't had a recession to deal with, let alone the biggest one since 1929.

Harper was awful by every measure.   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:12:26 pm
Harper was awful by every measure.

Whatever, he wasn't increasing deficits when the country wasn't in recession.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 16, 2019, 08:13:47 pm
Whatever, he wasn't increasing deficits when the country wasn't in recession.

Conservatives always have excuses for why "their guy" did things....     ::)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 08:17:51 pm
What rainy day fund?

It's more properly known as the "contingency/emergency fund" which is where ~2/3rds of the funds came from, the rest from selling GM shares, and at a loss of course, to finally try and show a surplus after all those deficits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:21:49 pm
It's more properly known as the "contingency/emergency fund" which is where ~2/3rds of the funds came from, the rest from selling GM shares, and at a loss of course, to finally try and show a surplus after all those deficits.

When you are carrying debt and running deficits there is no such thing as a rainy day fund, only borrowed money you haven't spent yet.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 08:47:18 pm
When you are carrying debt and running deficits there is no such thing as a rainy day fund, only borrowed money you haven't spent yet.

The GM shares , for example, were not borrowed money. They weree shares owned, and then cashed in at a loss, for political purposes. You may need an update on basic economics.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:50:03 pm
The GM shares , for example, were not borrowed money. They weree shares owned, and then cashed in at a loss, for political purposes. You may need an update on basic economics.
No but we were borrowing money so we didn't have to sell them. Would you borrow money and pay interest on it just so it looked good in your bank account?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 09:00:19 pm
No but we were borrowing money so we didn't have to sell them. Would you borrow money and pay interest on it just so it looked good in your bank account?

Nope, but I'm not Harper flailing around in a last ditch effort to try get reelected using other peoples money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 09:06:03 pm
Nope, but I'm not Harper flailing around in a last ditch effort to try get reelected using other peoples money.

Who's money do you think Trudeau is using? Who gets to pay interest on what he borrows. I  would say pay back but we both know that won't happen.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 09:48:51 pm
Who's money do you think Trudeau is using? Who gets to pay interest on what he borrows. I  would say pay back but we both know that won't happen.

Obviously PM's use taxpayer money. They just shouldn't try to lie about that or they may just get voted out, ala Harper. Maybe the revenue will help with the payback when the Trans Mountain gets done.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1952376/back-in-black-harper-sets-out-agenda-with-pre-election-budget/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 11:55:11 pm
We pay over 26 billion in interest on the federal debt. How much was that revised deficit again? Oh, 26.6 billion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 04:14:50 am
We pay over 26 billion in interest on the federal debt. How much was that revised deficit again? Oh, 26.6 billion.

(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 04:23:48 am
How much was that revised deficit again? Oh, 26.6 billion.

(https://i.imgur.com/W4ufefp.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 08:48:31 am
(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)

 But it has been rising in the past three years, in spite of a supposedly strong economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 09:25:58 am
The deficit is now 34% higher than projected just 8 months ago, supposedly in a healthy economy. Why would anyone believe their projections six months from now, let alone five years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 17, 2019, 11:47:34 am
Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Canada government DEBT:GDP hit a high in 1995, a low in 2007 and increased until 2016 when it started to go down again. There was also a small drop between 2013-14 and a small increase between 2000-01.

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-government-debt-to-gdp.png?s=candebt2gdp&v=201911071607V20191105&d1=19941223)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 11:56:38 am
But it has been rising in the past three years, in spite of a supposedly strong economy.

no - again, federal debt service as a percent of GDP is at its lowest point... in at least 55 years; again, economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:00:27 pm
Canada government DEBT:GDP hit a high in 1995, a low in 2007 and increased until 2016 when it started to go down again. There was also a small drop between 2013-14 and a small increase between 2000-01.

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-government-debt-to-gdp.png?s=candebt2gdp&v=201911071607V20191105&d1=19941223)

Those numbers are for federal and provincial debt combined, not federal debt. Federal debt to GDP declined from 2012 to 2016 and has since gone up slightly.

Instead of modest 10 billion deficits declining to zero in four years, by his own estimates Trudeau is no track to add 175 billon to the debt, but only if the economy stays strong. I think that number will turn out to be highly optimistic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:01:24 pm
The deficit is now 34% higher than projected just 8 months ago, supposedly in a healthy economy. Why would anyone believe their projections six months from now, let alone five years.

already answered: again, your highlighted 34% increase (from $19.8 billion for the 12-month period that ends in March... now slated to hit $26.6 billion) is principally driven by changes to how employee pensions and benefits are calculated:

(https://i.imgur.com/W4ufefp.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:04:46 pm
Federal debt to GDP has gone up slightly since 2016.

why are you ignoring the fact that servicing of that debt is quite manageable... as a percentage of GDP, at its lowest point in at least 55 years.

I think that number will turn out to be highly optimistic.

more wilberMath, hey!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:05:43 pm
already answered: again, your highlighted 34% increase (from $19.8 billion for the 12-month period that ends in March... now slated to hit $26.6 billion) is principally driven by changes to how employee pensions and benefits are calculated:

(https://i.imgur.com/W4ufefp.png)

So what, that was there when the 19.8 billion estimate was made. Was the 19.8 just BS in the first place.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:07:45 pm
why are you ignoring the fact that servicing of that debt is quite manageable... as a percentage of GDP, at its lowest point in at least 55 years.

more wilberMath, hey!  ;D

Next time you buy a car, just pay interest on the loan and pass the debt on to your kids when you die. I'm sure they will understand about your debt being manageable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:17:44 pm
Next time you buy a car, just pay interest on the loan and pass the debt on to your kids when you die. I'm sure they will understand about your debt being manageable.

(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:21:42 pm
(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

So obviously you don't care about sticking other people with your debts.

Now I understand why 46% of Canadians are $200 or less away from not being able to meet their monthly financial obligations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:23:34 pm
So obviously you don't care about sticking other people with your debts.

protip: as you've been shown, debt servicing is quite manageable today
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:26:06 pm
protip: as you've been shown, debt servicing is quite manageable today
s

Yup, who gives a **** about actually paying for anything as long as you can pay the interest.

I repeat.
Now I understand why 46% of Canadians are $200 or less away from not being able to meet their monthly financial obligations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:38:13 pm
hey chickenLittle, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio is the lowest among the G7 countries!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:46:49 pm
hey chickenLittle, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio is the lowest among the G7 countries!

Number 7! We can do better than that. We should at least be number 3.

Actually it isn't. When it comes to gross debt to GDP we are behind Germany and the UK.

Canada 87.5, UK 85.6, Germany 58.6.
Source IMF
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 17, 2019, 12:50:09 pm
Those numbers are for federal and provincial debt combined, not federal debt. Federal debt to GDP declined from 2012 to 2016 and has since gone up slightly.

Actually our current federal only debt:GDP ratio is the lowest it has been since 2008-09. Yes there was a slight increase in between 2014-15 and 2015-16 (Harper budget), and to 2016-17 (first Trudeau budget), but it has declined every year since.

ref: http://www.rbc.com/economics/economic-reports/pdf/canadian-fiscal/prov_fiscal.pdf
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 01:05:29 pm
Actually our current federal only debt:GDP ratio is the lowest it has been since 2008-09. Yes there was a slight increase in between 2014-15 and 2015-16 (Harper budget), and to 2016-17 (first Trudeau budget), but it has declined every year since.

ref: http://www.rbc.com/economics/economic-reports/pdf/canadian-fiscal/prov_fiscal.pdf

Rejoice, your personal piece of the federal debt went up $1000 since Trudeau took office and by 2024 it will go up by at least another $1500.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 17, 2019, 01:09:39 pm
Rejoice, your personal piece of the federal debt went up $1000 since Trudeau took office and by 2024 it will go up by at least another $1500.

When I was born, my personal piece of the federal debt was $825
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 01:13:48 pm
When I was born, my personal piece of the federal debt was $825

By 2024 it will be $19,404 and that was before the revised budget estimates, so figure on more like $20,000. How much do you think your kids and grand kids will owe?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 01:25:26 pm
Number 7! We can do better than that. We should at least be number 3.

Actually it isn't. When it comes to gross debt to GDP we are behind Germany and the UK.

Canada 87.5, UK 85.6, Germany 58.6. Source IMF

no, your wilberMath will not prevail... now do net debt to GDP!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 01:31:58 pm
no, your wilberMath will not prevail... now do net debt to GDP!  ;D

Debt to GDP is bullshit, it has nothing to do with actual financial responsibilities, it is just indicates a capacity to borrow. Donald Trump would be proud of you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 01:39:04 pm
How much do you think your kids and grand kids will owe?

so droll - think of the kids, think of the kids!

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.explosm.net%2Fcomics%2FKris%2Fstop2.png&hash=edf04252e149774417f05ce809b6201b87e95416)

note to hair-on-fire member wilber... yet - none yet... that I know of! (https://soundsilk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/SoundSilk-rim-shot_01.mp3)  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 02:19:05 pm
so droll - think of the kids, think of the kids!

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.explosm.net%2Fcomics%2FKris%2Fstop2.png&hash=edf04252e149774417f05ce809b6201b87e95416)

note to hair-on-fire member wilber... yet - none yet... that I know of! (https://soundsilk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/SoundSilk-rim-shot_01.mp3)  ;D

Someone has to, you don't give a dam.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 03:07:53 pm
We got a tax cut, who cares if it isn’t paid for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on December 18, 2019, 07:42:47 am
But it has been rising in the past three years, in spite of a supposedly strong economy.
You know the past three years is on the chart, right?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 02:56:03 pm
Debt to GDP is bullshit, it has nothing to do with actual financial responsibilities, it is just indicates a capacity to borrow. Donald Trump would be proud of you.

You pretend to know more than people who actually do this **** but you don't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 05:50:22 pm

You pretend to know more than people who actually do this **** but you don't.

I know it is being sold as reason, I mean excuse to go farther in debt. Any idiot should be able to see that.

I can remember the same sales pitch when PET was starting this whole thing.
Once burned twice shy but you will wear this a lot longer than I will.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 19, 2019, 06:13:04 pm
I can remember the same sales pitch when PET was starting this whole thing.

The debt:GDP ratio soared in the mid 1980's, mostly due to global financial markets and massive interest rates. For most of Trudeau's time in office, the debt:GDP ratio went down.

(https://www.ceicdata.com/datapage/charts/ipc_canada_government-debt--of-nominal-gdp/?type=area&period=max&lang=en)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 06:48:59 pm
Interest rates hit the Mulroney government much harder.

But it just goes to show how unforeseen changes can turn  borrowing into a nightmare and make  five year plans look like a bad joke.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 07:41:09 pm
Interest rates hit the Mulroney government much harder.

But it just goes to show how unforeseen changes can turn  borrowing into a nightmare and make  five year plans look like a bad joke.

Higher interest rates will actually be a net help as pension obligations would go down more than debt service would go up.  The IMF uses debt to GDP as the standard measure.  It’s the only meaningful measure. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 07:53:30 pm
Higher interest rates will actually be a net help as pension obligations would go down more than debt service would go up.  The IMF uses debt to GDP as the standard measure.  It’s the only meaningful measure.

It can change a heartbeat if we go into recession or interest rates take off. So why did debt to GDP take off when interest rates skyrocketed in the eighties?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 08:06:45 pm
It can change a heartbeat if we go into recession or interest rates take off. So why did debt to GDP take off when interest rates skyrocketed in the eighties?

Things were different then.  Our debt service costs are mostly locked in at extremely low rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 08:11:17 pm
Things were different then.  Our debt service costs are mostly locked in at extremely low rates.

Ya, things are always different then. Every generation has the same excuses for doing the same thing.

You do know that when times do change, that debt will have to be rolled over at whatever the rate of the day is.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 08:15:38 pm
Ya, things are always different then. Every generation has the same excuses for doing the same thing.

You do know that when times do change, that debt will have to be rolled over at whatever the rate of the day is.

Since no one is talking about runaway debt, that isn’t an issue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 08:41:22 pm
Since no one is talking about runaway debt, that isn’t an issue.

It isn’t runaway until it runs away. You think you are so much smarter than previous generations while you do exactly the same things, making the same excuses.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 19, 2019, 11:28:43 pm
It isn’t runaway until it runs away. You think you are so much smarter than previous generations while you do exactly the same things, making the same excuses.

chill member wilber, chill

(https://i.imgur.com/HkJnrc9.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:03:56 am
chill member wilber, chill

(https://i.imgur.com/HkJnrc9.png)

Are those dots the equivalent of Trump’s sharpie? The just announced revisions admitted debt to GDP is going to increase.

Canada’s gross debt to GDP is the third lowest in the G7.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:13:46 am
Canada’s gross debt to GDP is the third lowest in the G7.

it seems only YOU member wilber... focuses on gross GDP, rather than net GDP. Perhaps you should give the IMF a heads-up and get them to come over to the wilberSide!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 20, 2019, 05:20:57 am
Difference between gross and net debt?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 07:31:18 am
it seems only YOU member wilber... focuses on gross GDP, rather than net GDP. Perhaps you should give the IMF a heads-up and get them to come over to the wilberSide!  ;D

Those are IMF numbers. You and others only take into account federal debt, gross includes both federal and provincial debt and when it comes to total government debt we are not the lowest in the G7. Not only that but we are the highest in the G7 and one of the highest in the world when it comes to personal debt as a percentage of GDP.  Things are not as rosy as you would like to believe.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 20, 2019, 08:11:54 am
Those are IMF numbers. You and others only take into account federal debt, gross includes both federal and provincial debt and when it comes to total government debt we are not the lowest in the G7. Not only that but we are the highest in the G7 and one of the highest in the world when it comes to personal debt as a percentage of GDP.  Things are not as rosy as you would like to believe.

Very complete picture thank you.

Your note puts debt in context of the responsibility of the premiers and all of us, really.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 09:12:34 am
Very complete picture thank you.

Your note puts debt in context of the responsibility of the premiers and all of us, really.

I hope so because I see a real disconnect. Many of our so called “progressives” are telling us we are destroying our world with things like over consumption with its impact on the environment, while at the same time we can continue to borrow because it is all about debt to GDP and our economy will continue to grow forever. I fail to see how you can reconcile the two.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:18:27 pm
chill member wilber, chill

(https://i.imgur.com/RaMqadt.png)
Those are IMF numbers. You and others only take into account federal debt, gross includes both federal and provincial debt and when it comes to total government debt we are not the lowest in the G7. Not only that but we are the highest in the G7 and one of the highest in the world when it comes to personal debt as a percentage of GDP.  Things are not as rosy as you would like to believe.

geezaz, personal debt? How you move the goal posts!  ;D

protip: you won't wear it well if you make the waldo red-highlight within a prior posted image

Very complete picture thank you.

Your note puts debt in context of the responsibility of the premiers and all of us, really.

protipDeux: member wilber saying so... doesn't make it so!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 20, 2019, 12:39:08 pm

protipDeux: member wilber saying so... doesn't make it so!

It's sourced.  Net debt and gross debt seems like an apt term for these things.  It's not on Trudeau to account for gross debt, but upon the premiers including the Resistence (LOL) of Ford, Kenny and the other two...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:42:49 pm

protipDeux: member wilber saying so... doesn't make it so!

Actually it is so.
Gross debt to GDP.   Canada 89.7, UK 80.8, Germany 61.9, EU average 81.9,
Personal debt to GDP.   Canada 100.02, US 77.6, UK 86.35, Germany 52.73, France 58.62, Italy 41.31, Japan 57.04.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:44:35 pm
It's sourced.

where? You pose a question... the member wilber responds (unsourced/unsubstantiated) and you thank him for, "his complete picture & contextual framing". So..........
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:46:24 pm
Actually it is so.

doofus! No one is challenging your gross number - just your focus/usage... and definition of - which you still haven't sourced/substantiated.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:48:02 pm
It's sourced.  Net debt and gross debt seems like an apt term for these things.  It's not on Trudeau to account for gross debt, but upon the premiers including the Resistence (LOL) of Ford, Kenny and the other two...

I'm not hanging it all on Trudeau, he is just another politician trying to get elected. We are already consuming renewable resources faster than the planet's ability to replace them, thinking we can just keep growing our economies like it isn't happening is just willful ignorance.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:50:29 pm
doofus! No one is challenging your gross number - just your focus/usage... and definition of - which you still haven't sourced/substantiated.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_debt

There are other sources if you care to look them up.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:51:58 pm
I'm not hanging it all on Trudeau

of course you are/were! You were quite content to run with your emphasis on gross debt... while the entirety of focus/discussion was on the federal government.

you still haven't sourced/substantiated your definition... and how you presume to use it, particularly in a federal context! Still waiting, oh disingenuous one - still waiting!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:53:58 pm
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_debt

There are other sources if you care to look them up.

nice go-fetch drop!  ;D C'mon, don't runaway - quote/source your definition, particularly in the context you intended/were using it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 01:10:50 pm
member wilber, dropping a dumb-tag is just you Running Away!

here, let the waldo help you: net debt has financial assets removed, cause... wait for it, wait for it... should the need arise, financial assets could be used to pay back debt.
=> GovtOfCanada financial assets are principally composed of:
- taxes receivable (29%),
- investment in enterprise Crown corporations (26%),
- foreign exchange accounts (26%), and
- cash and/or cash equivalents (10%).

as stated: Canada has the lowest net debt-to-GDP of G7 nations; notwithstanding:

(https://i.imgur.com/RbEIipz.png)

don't be a chicken-little member wilber!  ;D


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 01:22:39 pm
No, I'm done with name calling twits. If you can't be civil, just **** off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 21, 2019, 07:20:23 am
Debt to GDP is bullshit, it has nothing to do with actual financial responsibilities, it is just indicates a capacity to borrow. Donald Trump would be proud of you.

and yet... somehow... you managed a dozen or so sleight-of-hand posts trying to flog your sky-is-falling GROSS DEBT-to-GDP bullshyte. Again:

(https://i.imgur.com/u80WJSn.png)

here, let the waldo help you: net debt has financial assets removed, cause... wait for it, wait for it... should the need arise, financial assets could be used to pay back debt.
=> GovtOfCanada financial assets are principally composed of:
- taxes receivable (29%),
- investment in enterprise Crown corporations (26%),
- foreign exchange accounts (26%), and
- cash and/or cash equivalents (10%).

as stated: Canada has the lowest net debt-to-GDP of G7 nations
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 03, 2020, 12:56:12 pm
weakAndy and CPC ilk continue to play up their boogeyman... continuing to warn about the coming 'Trudeau-made-in-Canada-recession'! Of course, no actual metrics support their nonsense. Meanwhile along comes the World Economic League Table showing current/projected country rankings for world's strongest economies - showing Canada has regained its top-10 status, ranking as the 10th largest economy in the world in 2018 and 2019... with projections for Canada to overtake both Italy and Brazil to have the world’s 8th-largest economy by 2029:

(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5e0f630a24000041245a4d92.png)

Quote
One of the persistent themes within the rankings is that countries that are successful in attracting skilled migrants tend to grow faster. And reflecting this, Canada and Australia, which are two of the most successful countries at attracting inward migration, are predicted to rise in the rankings

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 06, 2020, 10:17:37 am
through an assortment of recent print/media exchanges, Scheer's lil' Hamish has been out-and-about trying to reinvent/revitalize his standing in Conservative circles; a short snippet with an interesting question posed at the end: (https://twitter.com/i/videos/1211440074551971841) ..... was lil' Hamish running "an everyman" in an era of celebrity politics? 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 07, 2020, 11:28:59 am
it truly is ConMania as PM Trudeau comes back with a 'holiday beard'! PM Trudeau living rent free in their heads!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/aHJsrWX.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on January 10, 2020, 08:28:45 am
Wow. Shot down. 63 Canadians killed.

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/world/iranians-shot-down-airliner-western-leaders-declare-1.4759609

No.War.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 10, 2020, 09:13:41 am
Wow. Shot down. 63 Canadians killed.

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/world/iranians-shot-down-airliner-western-leaders-declare-1.4759609

No.War.
Why war? Almost certainly a mistake.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 10, 2020, 11:37:00 am
how does a CPC leadership candidate balance, 'the base'... and the want/need to be seen as a/the 'broader tent' party? Recent days Abacus survey:

(https://i.imgur.com/JILxJK1.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 27, 2020, 01:11:07 am
sweet! Other than Trump and acolytes wanting to push the name, 'USMCA'... the original name, NAFTA, is appearing more frequently in media coverage. Why even one of the key negotiators, Deputy PM Freeland, is now regularly referring to the updated agreement as, NAFTA... or rather, the new NAFTA. Why, I've even begun to read the name appearing as CUSMA in all its 2-syllable glory... with Canada noted first.

with Parliament set to return it appears Jagoff Singh is calling for a rigorous review of the complete agreement! Deputy PM Freeland has other thoughts; as relayed in a letter to party leaders:

(https://i.imgur.com/UyYv2kk.png)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 27, 2020, 01:01:10 pm
The BC lumber industry will be interested to know that 99.9% of our exports to the US are tariff free. Considering that softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports, is not covered under NAFTA and has been continually assaulted by tariffs. Most recently 20%.

These kind of statements make it even more necessary that this agreement be debated. After all, that is supposed to be the reason we have a parliament in the first place.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on January 27, 2020, 08:17:20 pm
The BC lumber industry will be interested to know that 99.9% of our exports to the US are tariff free. Considering that softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports, is not covered under NAFTA and has been continually assaulted by tariffs. Most recently 20%.

These kind of statements make it even more necessary that this agreement be debated. After all, that is supposed to be the reason we have a parliament in the first place.

This agreement is pretty much status quo.  It isn't something that parliament can change - they can only reject or accept.  NAFTA has seen Canada's economy quadruple in size over the last 30 years.  We're better off with a status quo agreement than with no agreement, and that's the only alternative.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 27, 2020, 08:46:18 pm
This agreement is pretty much status quo.  It isn't something that parliament can change - they can only reject or accept.  NAFTA has seen Canada's economy quadruple in size over the last 30 years.  We're better off with a status quo agreement than with no agreement, and that's the only alternative.

Maybe so but there is some disinformation in Freeland's letter. It's a sales pitch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 12:40:56 am
Maybe so but there is some disinformation in Freeland's letter. It's a sales pitch.

you say there's disinformation, but don't qualify. I say your opinion lacks... sumthin! Your move.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 09:00:09 am
you say there's disinformation, but don't qualify. I say your opinion lacks... sumthin! Your move.

I did. For starters, the statement that 99.9% of our exports to the the US will be tariff free. That is clearly not so. Softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports and doesn’t even come under NAFTA. It has been targeted by the Americans for years. When I said the letter is a sales job, it wasn’t intended as a criticism, just stating a fact.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 01:12:48 pm
I did. For starters, the statement that 99.9% of our exports to the the US will be tariff free. That is clearly not so. Softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports and doesn’t even come under NAFTA. It has been targeted by the Americans for years. When I said the letter is a sales job, it wasn’t intended as a criticism, just stating a fact.

"for starters"? You mean there's more... you mean you have... more? You seem to be so flummoxed by this lil' ditty:
Quote
It safeguards more than $2-billion a day in cross-border trade and tariff-free access for 99.9 per cent of our U.S.-bound exports. When the new agreement goes into force, Canada will preserve tariff-free access to our largest trading partner, supporting hundreds of thousands of Canadian jobs, now and into the future.

that's a pretty definitive statement - yes? Not much/any(?) wiggle room there, hey! Given how DeputyDogFreeland has been so intricately involved in the actual treaty negotiations, it's hard to fathom she could... would... leave such an opening - so wide... that even member wilber could drive a load of softwood lumber through it - yes?

wait, what? Sept 5, 2019 --- A joint binational NAFTA panel ruled the U.S. must "rethink" imposed tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber - given 3 months to do so. As you say, for starters, any updates here member wilber - any updates?  ;D

by the by, in regards softwood lumber, Canada has leveraged the NAFTA dispute mechanism several times in the past
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 01:58:38 pm
"for starters"? You mean there's more... you mean you have... more? You seem to be so flummoxed by this lil' ditty:
that's a pretty definitive statement - yes? Not much/any(?) wiggle room there, hey! Given how DeputyDogFreeland has been so intricately involved in the actual treaty negotiations, it's hard to fathom she could... would... leave such an opening - so wide... that even member wilber could drive a load of softwood lumber through it - yes?

wait, what? Sept 5, 2019 --- A joint binational NAFTA panel ruled the U.S. must "rethink" imposed tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber - given 3 months to do so. As you say, for starters, any updates here member wilber - any updates?  ;D

by the by, in regards softwood lumber, Canada has leveraged the NAFTA dispute mechanism several times in the past

You are obviously an Easterner. BC has been going through the softwood song and dance for decades. The US imposes a tariff, Canada disputes it and couple of years later wins. In the meantime, US companies make hay at Canada’s expense. A few years later, we go through the same cycle again. We must be on chapter four by now and this will be no different. Dealing with the US Congress is like playing whack a mole.  Also, the US tariffs on dairy are not addressed, we just give up more market share even though we already import more than three times as much dairy from the US as we export.

All this deserves to be debated. Freeland’s letter is a sales job, which is to be expected. She was in charge of negotiating the deal and a good part of her political credibility is staked on it. It is hardly an unbiased assessment and should have to withstand being challenged.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 02:02:30 pm
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 04:32:37 pm
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.

further more, I accept you now realize you weren't current in regards softwood lumber... that your bluster-bus doesn't stand! Your whine over Deputy Prime Minister Freeland's letter being biased is matched bettered by your own unsubstantiated statements (aka your biased opinion).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 04:41:16 pm
further more, I accept you now realize you weren't current in regards softwood lumber... that your bluster-bus doesn't stand! Your whine over Deputy Prime Minister Freeland's letter being biased is matched bettered by your own unsubstantiated statements (aka your biased opinion).

I am current, I know what is going on and have seen this movie before. In a year or two Congress will cook up another reason to impose tariffs and we will go through this song and dance again.

Of course her letter is biased, it would be astonishing if it wasn't. She has more of a personal stake in getting this thing through parliament than anyone. Anyone else in her position would do the same.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 05:04:24 pm
I am current, .....  In a year or two

oh my member wilber, oh my!  ;D

thought you said you had... more?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 05:23:38 pm
oh my member wilber, oh my!  ;D

thought you said you had... more?

Waldo, you should really look into the history of softwood lumber before you make yourself look like a bigger ass. This **** has been going on since 1982. We have won several times with different dispute mechanisms including the WTO but every time, the US lumber lobby gets Congress to impose further penalties under another pretence. Nothing has changed.

 It getting back to my original point, her claim that 99.9% of trade is tariff free, is clearly misleading, in fact, not true.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 05:39:42 pm
Waldo, you should really look into the history of softwood lumber before you make yourself look like a bigger ass.

why the attempted insult; why so personal, hey!  ;D C'mon man, again, in regards softwood lumber, that Freeland letter reflects the recent NAFTA panel ruling. Your ride down historical lane doesn't reflect this; i.e., you're not current.

again, thought you had more! Let's see your independent analysis that emboldens you with the following unsubstantiated claim:
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on January 28, 2020, 05:53:08 pm
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.

A status quo agreement that gave us a few things we wanted is as close to a win as anyone was going to get with Trump.  We kept him from getting most of what he wanted, also a win.  People from all political parties participated to make this agreement a reality, including Rona Ambrose.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 06:09:24 pm
It’s one ruling in a succession of rulings, if you took the time to look into the history of this dispute you wouldn’t be so damned arrogant. But you won’t.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 11:16:45 pm
It’s one ruling in a succession of rulings, if you took the time to look into the history of this dispute you wouldn’t be so damned arrogant. But you won’t.

which has diddly squat to do with your incorrect statement concerning disinformation in the Freeland letter. Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling.

equally, your unsubstantiated opinion claiming the new NAFTA is, "a loss for Canada", doesn't account for jackShyte! Put up or STFU... hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 11:36:20 pm
so... about that Liberal government want/intent to ban assault-type weapons during the current session. MacKay has taken his stand... again, reinforcing the CPC is the party of gunNutters!

(https://i.imgur.com/Wmion0u.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 29, 2020, 08:53:41 am
which has diddly squat to do with your incorrect statement concerning disinformation in the Freeland letter. Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling.

equally, your unsubstantiated opinion claiming the new NAFTA is, "a loss for Canada", doesn't account for jackShyte! Put up or STFU... hey!
The most recent NAFTA ruling is one of many over the years. Softwood lumber isn’t covered in the NAFTA agreement and the softwood lumber agreement expired several years ago.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 29, 2020, 09:43:25 am
which has diddly squat to do with your incorrect statement concerning disinformation in the Freeland letter. Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling.
The most recent NAFTA ruling is one of many over the years. Softwood lumber isn’t covered in the NAFTA agreement and the softwood lumber agreement expired several years ago.

you said you had more... still waiting!  ;D Again, the letter reflects the most recent NAFTA ruling. Again:

Sept 5, 2019 --- A joint binational NAFTA panel ruled the U.S. must "rethink" imposed tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber - given 3 months to do so. As you say, for starters, any updates here member wilber - any updates?

by the by, in regards softwood lumber, Canada has leveraged the NAFTA dispute mechanism several times in the past

(https://i.imgur.com/CttbMl3.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 29, 2020, 10:26:58 am
you said you had more... still waiting!  ;D Again, the letter reflects the most recent NAFTA ruling/b]. Again:

(https://i.imgur.com/CttbMl3.png)

As you refuse to educate yourself on the history of softwood lumber, as well as rejecting the idea that any politician would try and sell an agreement they were instrumental in negotiating, there is no point to this discussion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 29, 2020, 11:07:57 am
As you refuse to educate yourself on the history of softwood lumber, as well as rejecting the idea that any politician would try and sell an agreement they were instrumental in negotiating, there is no point to this discussion.

you claimed the Freeland letter was misinformation... you specifically pointed to softwood lumber tariffs. While you refused to educate yourself, the waldo has stepped in to learn ya! Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling. You know, the Sept 4th ruling the waldo schooled you with!  ;D

again, you said you had more... other than your unsubstantiated statements, do you... have more?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 03, 2020, 05:41:19 pm
CPC fake outrage continues over the Liberal government's $50 million incentive spend w/MasterCard. Clearly, Conservatives can't fathom a ROI that actually guarantees jobs (long term jobs - ~ 400) created with MasterCard establishing a Vancouver based 'enhanced security system' center. To CPC/Conservatives (and ConMedia acolytes), this is "corporate welfare"... and really messes with their tried/true practice of giving corporations mega tax breaks in a most presumptive (false) belief that resultant jobs will be created.

somehow, weak Andy is still playing relevant here!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/rFq7ykV.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 03, 2020, 06:34:39 pm
It doesn't really matter since our grandchildren will pay for it, should have given MC 100 million.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 03, 2020, 07:43:21 pm
It doesn't really matter since our grandchildren will pay for it, should have given MC 100 million.

That's not how government debt works.

This $50M bought a $490M investment from MasterCard that would have went somewhere else - it's hard to see the downside.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2020, 08:10:25 pm
It doesn't really matter since our grandchildren will pay for it, should have given MC 100 million.

Try doing a little simple math and you'll see those ~400 jobs will payback the 50 million in income taxes and long before the grandchildren.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 03, 2020, 08:15:41 pm
That's not how government debt works.

You're right, the gov sells bonds etc to investors and then have to pay the money back to the investors plus interest when the bonds come due. Then if they still need money they sell more bonds etc. and repeat until they pay down the debt and don't need to borrow anymore.  Since our government will probably never pay down the debt (why should we?  We deserve jobs & cool stuff) we'll never have to pay for this 10 million except for the interest payments (which we'll borrow to pay for anyways) so basically this is a free investment and is awesome.

Quote
This $50M bought a $490M investment from MasterCard that would have went somewhere else - it's hard to see the downside.

We bought this from MC?  So we own it?  I've never read that but that's great.  Vancouver has 4.9% unemployment rate but whatever, might as well give a few hundred people some jobs since we'll never have to pay the money back.

Liberals are deficit spending to stimulate job creation when there's historically low unemployment, which makes perfect sense and is exactly what Keynesian economics calls for.  What did Chretien and Martin know they're old and out of touch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 03, 2020, 08:19:17 pm
You're right, the gov sells bonds etc to investors and then have to pay the money back to the investors plus interest when the bonds come due. Then if they still need money they sell more bonds etc. and repeat until they pay down the debt and don't need to borrow anymore.  Since our government will probably never pay down the debt (why should we?  We deserve jobs & cool stuff) we'll never have to pay for this 10 million except for the interest payments (which we'll borrow to pay for anyways) so basically this is a free investment and is awesome.

We bought this from MC?  So we own it?  I've never read that but that's great.  Vancouver has 4.9% unemployment rate but whatever, might as well give a few hundred people some jobs since we'll never have to pay the money back.

Liberals are deficit spending to stimulate job creation when there's historically low unemployment, which makes perfect sense and is exactly what Keynesian economics calls for.  What did Chretien and Martin know they're old and out of touch.

Not all deficits are created alike - at current, Canada’s debt position is improving, not getting worse.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 03, 2020, 08:25:55 pm
Not all deficits are created alike - at current, Canada’s debt position is improving, not getting worse.

Debt-to-GDP shows a gov's ability to pay back the debt.  If we're never going to pay it back the stat means nothing, so we might as well borrow more i say.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2020, 10:40:23 pm
Try doing a little simple math and you'll see those ~400 jobs will payback the 50 million in income taxes and long before the grandchildren.

50 million compounded at 3% over 30 years is over 121 million.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2020, 10:55:13 pm
50 million compounded at 3% over 30 years is over 121 million.

And 400 jobs paying at least 10k/year amounts to 121 million over 30 years. Then there's that corporate tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2020, 10:59:11 pm
And 400 jobs paying at least 10k/year amounts to 121 million over 30 years. Then there's that corporate tax.

It doesn't matter, after 30 years you are still handing your grand children a 121 million debt because you never paid it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2020, 11:18:46 pm
And if your grand children don't pay it back it becomes a 294 million dollar debt for their grand children. So now they are paying 9 million annual interest on your 50 million loan. And if interest rates go up over the next 60 years, it could be a lot more.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2020, 11:26:47 pm
It doesn't matter, after 30 years you are still handing your grand children a 121 million debt because you never paid it back.

I assume you're talking about potential interest on the funds if they were left in gov't coffers. This is not a loan it's an investment and the figures show me it will pay for itself simply through job creation. (You know about income tax eh?)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 03, 2020, 11:41:29 pm
And if your grand children don't pay it back it becomes a 294 million dollar debt for their grand children. So now they are paying 9 million annual interest on your 50 million loan. And if interest rates go up over the next 60 years, it could be a lot more.

We haven't paid back anything when we started to borrow a lot starting in the 70's, except a small bit during the Chretien years, so that's around 50 years and counting of compound interest with no end in sight.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 12:34:05 am
Liberal government 'grow the economy' $50M incentive spend towards MasterCard security center was previously budgeted for as a part of the 2017 budget; specifically associated with the, Strategic Innovation Fund:

(https://i.imgur.com/85u6W34.png)


by the by, would any CPC supporting "fiscal squawk" member here care to offer up policy intent/strategy to align with your forevah debt-paydown talking points... and what results would impact upon the citizenry... and growth in jobs/economy? Anyone... anyone... anyone?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 07:22:26 am
Debt-to-GDP shows a gov's ability to pay back the debt.  If we're never going to pay it back the stat means nothing, so we might as well borrow more i say.

No, it shows our ability to carry it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 09:17:58 am
I assume you're talking about potential interest on the funds if they were left in gov't coffers. This is not a loan it's an investment and the figures show me it will pay for itself simply through job creation. (You know about income tax eh?)

No, I’m talking about actual interest paid or owing. Right now we pay about 26 billion annually to service the federal debt. The projected 20/21 deficit is about 28 billion. That means 26 of the 28 billion we will be borrowing is going to pay interest on what we already owe.

Assuming interest rates stay low, that’s 26 billion annually plus interest on any additional borrowing passed on to future generations in perpetuity. If interest rates rise, which they eventually will, that number will go up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 09:24:12 am
No, it shows our ability to carry it.
So you are saying we can never pay it back and future generations will have to carry the debt we accumulated forever. Can you imagine telling your children that when it comes to you person debt. Don’t worry kid, you will be able to afford the payments on my Beemer long after I am dead and it has gone to the wrecker.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 04, 2020, 10:08:20 am
No, it shows our ability to carry it.

"What Is the Debt-to-GDP Ratio?

The debt-to-GDP ratio is the metric comparing a country's public debt to its gross domestic product (GDP). By comparing what a country owes with what it produces, the debt-to-GDP ratio reliably indicates that particular country’s ability to pay back its debts. Often expressed as a percentage, this ratio can also be interpreted as the number of years needed to pay back debt, if GDP is dedicated entirely to debt repayment.
"

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debtgdpratio.asp
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 10:27:23 am
guys, guys... c'mon, you already plied your ChickenLittleSkyisFalling routine earlier in this thread!. Again, debt servicing is QUITE MANAGEABLE!

no - again, federal debt service as a percent of GDP is at its lowest point... in at least 55 years; again, economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 11:31:09 am
guys, guys... c'mon, you already plied your ChickenLittleSkyisFalling routine earlier in this thread!. Again, debt servicing is QUITE MANAGEABLE!

That's not the point. Why do you think it is morally acceptable to run up debt and intentionally pass it on to future generations?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 11:32:47 am
by the by, would any CPC supporting "fiscal squawk" member here care to offer up policy intent/strategy to align with your forevah debt-paydown talking points... and what results would impact upon the citizenry... and growth in jobs/economy? Anyone... anyone... anyone?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 04, 2020, 11:50:17 am
by the by, would any CPC supporting "fiscal squawk" member here care to offer up policy intent/strategy to align with your forevah debt-paydown talking points... and what results would impact upon the citizenry... and growth in jobs/economy? Anyone... anyone... anyone?

I don't think there's any CPC supporters on this forum, myself included.   If there were, what would be the point.  If it doesn't align with Liberal Party policy you will reject it outright.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 11:55:13 am
I don't think there's any CPC supporters on this forum, myself included. If there were, what would be the point. If it doesn't align with Liberal Party policy you will reject it outright.

how copishOutish! Sorry, forgot you're a Greenie!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 02:26:33 pm
It's no longer a mystery to me why Canadians are carrying the most household debt of any developed country and why so many of them are only a couple of weeks away from insolvency if their income is interrupted.

Hey, we can make the payments. Let's do it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 04, 2020, 02:49:15 pm
It's no longer a mystery to me why Canadians are carrying the most household debt of any developed country and why so many of them are only a couple of weeks away from insolvency if their income is interrupted.

Hey, we can make the payments. Let's do it.

It's not their fault they have so much debt, it's the evil corporations who take advantage of unsuspecting Canadians.

Being a few weeks away from insolvency isn't a problem because the government will always take care of us.  Saving money for when you need it is pretty dumb when you could take a nice vacation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 06:18:48 pm
It's no longer a mystery to me why Canadians are carrying the most household debt of any developed country and why so many of them are only a couple of weeks away from insolvency if their income is interrupted.

Hey, we can make the payments. Let's do it.

Households are not analogous to government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 06:27:32 pm
Households are not analogous to government.

You keep saying that in order to justify saddling future generations with debt you incur for your wants.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 07:14:26 pm
squid doesn’t mind saddling future generations with his debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 07:50:47 pm
squid doesn’t mind saddling future generations with his debt.

Gov. investment in viable business is different that debt. I expect the returns from MC will show that to be true once again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 08:03:00 pm
Gov. investment in viable business is different that debt. I expect the returns from MC will show that to be true once again.
Good grief if you borrow money and don't pay it back, it is debt. It doesn't matter what you borrowed if for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 08:48:50 pm
Good grief if you borrow money and don't pay it back, it is debt. It doesn't matter what you borrowed if for.

Is the 50 mil borrowed, or from tax revenue?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 08:52:12 pm
Is the 50 mil borrowed, or from tax revenue?

The 50 mil for MasterCard is neither here nor there. The point is we are borrowing money to pay interest on what we already owe.

Future generations will have billions of tax dollars going toward servicing debt we incurred and will get zero value for those dollars.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 09:27:26 pm
Future generations will have billions of tax dollars going toward servicing debt we incurred and will get zero value for those dollars.

Sure - but debt servicing costs are going down.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 09:49:21 pm
Sure - but debt servicing costs are going down.

Debt servicing costs are a function of interest rates. Are you going to guarantee they won't go up in your children's and grand children's lifetimes?

In 1979 I took out a mortgage at 9%. Five years later I had to renew at 18% and a month later they went to 20%.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 09:51:39 pm

The 50 mil for MasterCard is neither here nor there. The point is we are borrowing money to pay interest on what we already owe.

Future generations will have billions of tax dollars going toward servicing debt we incurred and will get zero value for those dollars.

It is actually "here" since MC will spend 510 million and provide ~400 jobs in one of our major cities. Is that not a good investment of government tax funds? Or should it just be kept in the bank gathering dust?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 10:02:07 pm
Debt servicing costs are a function of interest rates. Are you going to guarantee they won't go up in your children's and grand children's lifetimes?

In 1979 I took out a mortgage at 9%. Five years later I had to renew at 18% and a month later they went to 20%.

I can guarantee that as long as the economy is growing faster than the debt, the debt will get easier to handle.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 10:16:57 pm
I can guarantee that as long as the economy is growing faster than the debt, the debt will get easier to handle.

You can guarantee the economy will grow faster than the debt can you?

That's the thing, you could care less how much debt you saddle your kids with as long as you think they can handle it. But if they can't, well that will be their problem, not yours. It may be your fault but it won't be your problem.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 11:29:04 pm
You can guarantee the economy will grow faster than the debt can you?

That's the thing, you could care less how much debt you saddle your kids with as long as you think they can handle it. But if they can't, well that will be their problem, not yours. It may be your fault but it won't be your problem.

I went into debt ~20 years ago to buy a house. I had to pay interest on the loan. I now own the house and the value has risen to where it will pay back the interest I paid many times over. I could have stayed in a rental apartment I guess.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2020, 09:05:08 am
I went into debt ~20 years ago to buy a house. I had to pay interest on the loan. I now own the house and the value has risen to where it will pay back the interest I paid many times over. I could have stayed in a rental apartment I guess.

That would be fine  if we were actually paying anything off but we aren’t, we are just borrowing and passing the debt on to future generations. All debt to GDP means is we can afford to keep paying the interest.

Rationalize it any way want but the bottom line is all this debt to GDP BS means is we are sentencing future generations to use their tax dollars to pay interest for the rest of their lives on money we borrowed and spent. Unless they do something we weren’t willing to do like actually pay off our debts.

If we borrow to build a bridge and don’t pay it off, it isn’t an appreciating asset for our children, it is just something they will eventually have to tear down and replace. Not only will they have to borrow to build a new one but they will be stuck still paying interest on the one they just tore down.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 05, 2020, 11:11:11 am
I can guarantee that as long as the economy is growing faster than the debt, the debt will get easier to handle.

"Easier to handle" indicates our ability to pay back the debt, which we'll never do, and our ability to keep paying interest payments.

I can guarantee that as long as the debt keeps growing, money wasted on compounded interest payments on debt will keep growing too.

(https://external-preview.redd.it/HDGrg66qn1kT1ZrcavJMso4_5tqFlkQts9QkY6a-sRU.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a48621b2f746a36f472992041dcdd55dbba862b7)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 05, 2020, 11:15:05 am
I went into debt ~20 years ago to buy a house. I had to pay interest on the loan. I now own the house and the value has risen to where it will pay back the interest I paid many times over. I could have stayed in a rental apartment I guess.

1. You paid into equity on an investment that is known to forever rise in value.  That's much different than most of the money the government spends

2.  You eventually paid off your debt and the interest payments have stopped, something the government doesn't do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 05, 2020, 12:07:28 pm
1. You paid into equity on an investment that is known to forever rise in value.  That's much different than most of the money the government spends

2.  You eventually paid off your debt and the interest payments have stopped, something the government doesn't do.

Yes, we all know governments waste money. Now, money I spent on a house was not a waste because yes it rose in value. Money invested in a company as profitable as MC could well not be a waste because it generates wealth. People with jobs pay taxes on their income back to the government and they also buy stuff, pay more taxes there, and that activity supports other jobs. Buying Bomarc Missiles, now that was a good example of government waste. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2020, 12:35:23 pm
Yes, we all know governments waste money. Now, money I spent on a house was not a waste because yes it rose in value. Money invested in a company as profitable as MC could well not be a waste because it generates wealth. People with jobs pay taxes on their income back to the government and they also buy stuff, pay more taxes there, and that activity supports other jobs. Buying Bomarc Missiles, now that was a good example of government waste.

It may not be a waste. We don't want government to not invest in things but we should expect it to pay our debts and not pass them on to our kids and grand kids.

You paid your house off, governments aren't paying their debts off, they are just paying the interest. Unless it has great historical value, eventually your home will be torn down and the only value will be in the land it sits on. The house itself will just be an expense that has to be got rid of.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 05, 2020, 04:16:07 pm
It may not be a waste. We don't want government to not invest in things but we should expect it to pay our debts and not pass them on to our kids and grand kids.

You paid your house off, governments aren't paying their debts off, they are just paying the interest. Unless it has great historical value, eventually your home will be torn down and the only value will be in the land it sits on. The house itself will just be an expense that has to be got rid of.

I probably wouldn't care about the MC payout if it wasn't paid for with debt and interest.  It is an investment.  The question is, how wise an investment, for 380 jobs in a city with 4.9% unemployment rate using money we have to borrow.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 06, 2020, 12:06:51 pm
with the backdrop of HOC discussion centering on aspects of criminal code legislation associated with Bill C-36 (Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act (PCEPA))... as introduced in 2014 by then CPC Justice Minister, MmmKay:

this CPC ChildSoldier, MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) had the temerity to ask NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... if she ever considered being a sex worker!

(https://i.imgur.com/oX0cJj8.png)



MmmKay Bill-C36 legislation that has been significantly criticized as actually making it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 06, 2020, 11:34:24 pm
oh my! With a lil' spotlight on the aforementioned CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock), this gem has come forward  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXYzvxIy6Y
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 07, 2020, 10:19:01 am
He seems like CPC leadership material...   

They could run an angry goat in those Alberta ridings and the good citizens would choose them over someone with the Lib or NDP label.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 07, 2020, 03:13:06 pm
It was a dumb ass thing to say and he rightly apologized but rather than just blindly taking something out of context, it is worth looking at the whole exchange.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 07, 2020, 07:24:37 pm
It was a dumb ass thing to say and he rightly apologized but rather than just blindly taking something out of context, it is worth looking at the whole exchange.

What context are we missing here....?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 07, 2020, 07:59:06 pm
Canadians increasingly negative on government's performance: 13-year Nanos study

Canadians have been increasingly critical of the federal government’s performance since 2015, with an all-time low in the number who think the feds are doing a good job, according to a Nanos Research study that began tracking the “Mood of Canada” 13 years ago.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canadians-increasingly-negative-on-government-s-performance-13-year-nanos-study-1.4801766

(https://postmediatorontosun.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/trudeau.png?w=392&h=221)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 07, 2020, 08:12:53 pm
Canadians increasingly negative on government's performance: 13-year Nanos study

Canadians have been increasingly critical of the federal government’s performance since 2015, with an all-time low in the number who think the feds are doing a good job, according to a Nanos Research study that began tracking the “Mood of Canada” 13 years ago.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canadians-increasingly-negative-on-government-s-performance-13-year-nanos-study-1.4801766


Meh....   still 50x better than Scheer and the CPC.    Way better than Harper’s bunch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 07, 2020, 08:17:39 pm

Meh....   still 50x better than Scheer and the CPC.    Way better than Harper’s bunch.

Actually, more Canadians voted for Scheer than Trudeau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 07, 2020, 08:23:44 pm
Actually, more Canadians voted for Scheer than Trudeau.

And that is relevant how?  What does that mean to you?  2/3 voted for someone other than Scheer.

I think the election turned out as well as could have been hoped with a Lib minority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 07, 2020, 09:57:28 pm
What context are we missing here....?

Did you watch the complete exchange between the two?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 12:28:30 am
It was a dumb ass thing to say and he rightly apologized but rather than just blindly taking something out of context, it is worth looking at the whole exchange.
Did you watch the complete exchange between the two?

the neanderthal CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) started his comments with the dumbazz question to NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... asking if she ever considered being a sex worker! The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

I would suggest a new thread if you feel a need/want to support Viersen's, as you say, "context"... where, I interpret, his "strong Christian faith" doesn't allow him to accept that some women are in the work at their own volition... not forced, not coerced.
(https://i.imgur.com/2PXFMyp.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 12:43:50 am
what is with these idgit Conservatives who demean/attack teachers & education... like justVisitingJason, like DOFO... like O'Tool... implying PM Trudeau's years as a teacher weren't, as he states, "real world" work!

(https://i.imgur.com/uiNsMb3.png)

as for those stated "12 years served in the Canadian Armed Forces", I interpret 7 of those years as paid education in regards an undergraduate degree from the Royal Military College of Canada (RMC) in Kingston and, while in the Canadian Forces reserves, a law degree from Dalhousie University in Halifax..... I stand to be corrected but I interpret the other 5 years as the service commitment required to meet the terms of his military paid education. The point being, I believe, he got out after his service commitment was realized.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 08, 2020, 06:18:18 pm
the neanderthal CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) started his comments with the dumbazz question to NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... asking if she ever considered being a sex worker! The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

I would suggest a new thread if you feel a need/want to support Viersen's, as you say, "context"... where, I interpret, his "strong Christian faith" doesn't allow him to accept that some women are in the work at their own volition... not forced, not coerced.
(https://i.imgur.com/2PXFMyp.png)

I’m not supporting Viersons comment, but waldo being waldo continues to take one sentence out of context without  posting or linking the whole exchange between the two.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 07:15:01 pm
I’m not supporting Viersons comment, but waldo being waldo continues to take one sentence out of context without  posting or linking the whole exchange between the two.

bullshyte! I offered my interpretation of what your presumptive "missing context" was; again:
the neanderthal CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) started his comments with the dumbazz question to NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... asking if she ever considered being a sex worker! The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

member wilber being member wilber... you beak-off about "missing context" but haven't said a single word as to what said "missing context" was! There's certainly nothing stopping you from, as you say, "posting or linking the whole exchange between the two" - is there. Again, step-up and state your claimed "missing context". Is this a problem for you?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 08, 2020, 07:47:50 pm
bullshyte! I offered my interpretation of what your presumptive "missing context" was; again:
member wilber being member wilber... you beak-off about "missing context" but haven't said a single word as to what said "missing context" was! There's certainly nothing stopping you from, as you say, "posting or linking the whole exchange between the two" - is there. Again, step-up and state your claimed "missing context". Is this a problem for you?

You took a statement out context and ran with it. Post the whole exchange, it's not up to me. I didn't start this. Why don't you want to? Don't tell us you can't with all the other crap you link and post.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 08, 2020, 08:49:47 pm
The reason I brought it up is I think Vierson actually had a point, but he made himself a dumb ass because he would have never said something like that to a man.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 11:57:39 pm
You took a statement out context and ran with it. Post the whole exchange, it's not up to me. I didn't start this. Why don't you want to?
The reason I brought it up is I think Vierson actually had a point, but he made himself a dumb ass because he would have never said something like that to a man.

again, you're not adding anything of relevance here! You continue to speak of, "missing context... out of context", while adding dickAll as to the said context you're wailin'/whinin' about. You say the dumbAzz Viersen has a point, but you can't manage to articulate just what your claimed point is. ;D Member wilber being member wilber!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 09, 2020, 09:32:33 am
again, you're not adding anything of relevance here! You continue to speak of, "missing context... out of context", while adding dickAll as to the said context you're wailin'/whinin' about. You say the dumbAzz Viersen has a point, but you can't manage to articulate just what your claimed point is. ;D Member wilber being member wilber!
Still won’t post it will you. Come on waldo, it’s easy to find. It think Viersen had a point but he is a dumb ass because he made an ignorant comment which has allowed the noise from that to completely drown out the argument he was trying to make. And that’s the way you like it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 09, 2020, 11:18:40 am
Still won’t post it will you. Come on waldo, it’s easy to find. It think Viersen had a point but he is a dumb ass because he made an ignorant comment which has allowed the noise from that to completely drown out the argument he was trying to make. And that’s the way you like it.

oh c'mon member wilber... being member wilber! You blather on about missing context, but you can't/won't state what's missing. You claim the guy has a point, but you can't/won't state what that point is. Notwithstanding CPC MP Arnold Viersen's (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) ignorant comment, you apparently believe what he said has merit, but you can't/won't articulate your interpreted merit.

as below, I've stated/previously re-quoted what I interpret CPC MP Arnold Viersen's comments were about, but you can't/won't counter what I've stated in that regard!

The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

... as you say, "context"... where, I interpret, his "strong Christian faith" doesn't allow him to accept that some women are in the work at their own volition... not forced, not coerced.

quit playing silly-buggar and say something... preferably in a separate dedicated thread related to the topic NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria) was commenting on... before dumbazz Viersen asked her if she ever considered being a sex worker!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 09, 2020, 12:34:08 pm
Not playing your stupid games. You can either post the whole exchange plus the question that started it then we can discus it, or you can put a sock in it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 09, 2020, 01:23:18 pm
Not playing your stupid games. You can either post the whole exchange plus the question that started it then we can discus it, or you can put a sock in it.

I'm quite fine showcasing member wilber... being member wilber!

... but you can't/won't state what's missing... but you can't/won't state what that point is... but you can't/won't articulate your interpreted merit... but you can't/won't counter what I've stated in that regard!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 10, 2020, 10:49:00 am
Someone on twitter described measuring debt nominally as crayon economics.  I think they might be on to something.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2020, 11:21:47 am
Someone on twitter described measuring debt nominally as crayon economics.  I think they might be on to something.
That's about the best way to describe it. These armchair economists with little more than an introductory course (if that) are so clueless, it's impossible to even discuss the issues with them. Conservative politicians feed on this ignorance to dupe working class people into voting against their interests (ie, conservative parties engaging in reverse Robin Hood policies).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 10, 2020, 11:30:16 am
  Conservative politicians feed on this ignorance to dupe working class people into voting against their interests (ie, conservative parties engaging in reverse Robin Hood policies).

That's not always true, Cyber.  Republicans have stopped talking about the deficit for some reason and the Tea Party is strangely silent.

In serious news, I agree that people are woefully uninformed about debt, deficit and so on.  I feel that we are currently paying for infrastructure with our deficit which is ok by me.  That said, we can probably afford to hike taxes a little bit and improve our services, ie. INVEST in our services.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 11:49:15 am
Someone on twitter described measuring debt nominally as crayon economics.  I think they might be on to something.

Tell that to your bank.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 11:53:19 am
That's not always true, Cyber.  Republicans have stopped talking about the deficit for some reason and the Tea Party is strangely silent.

In serious news, I agree that people are woefully uninformed about debt, deficit and so on.  I feel that we are currently paying for infrastructure with our deficit which is ok by me.  That said, we can probably afford to hike taxes a little bit and improve our services, ie. INVEST in our services.

We aren't paying for infrastructure, we borrow to build it all we do is carry the interest, we aren't actually "paying" for anything.

It's the same as me buying a car on a personal line of credit and never doing more than paying interest on the balance. One day the car is worth nothing but I still owe the same amount of money for it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:00:28 pm
Today's Republican party is socially conservative and its primary objective is staying in power regardless of the cost. They are certainly not fiscal conservatives.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2020, 12:09:50 pm
Tell that to your bank.
National economies do not work like personal finances.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:19:14 pm
National economies do not work like personal finances.

Yes they do. If you borrow more money, you need more income to finance the debt. If you don't pay off the debt, you have to carry the interest until you do. What did you think debt to GDP means?

A few years ago BC replaced the Port Mann bridge at a construction cost of 2.5 billion. In another 60 or 70 years that bridge will need replacement and will probably cost four or five times as much. Aside from paying interest on that 2.5 billion for 60 or 70 years, do you think that 2.5 billion debt will just disappear along with the old bridge when it is torn down?

This is pretty basic stuff.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:24:29 pm
National economies do not work like personal finances.

If you don't think borrowing and not paying it off matters, just look at the US.

When Obama left office, interest on the US federal debt was 280 billion, now it is over 400 billion and is on track to be over 700 billion by 2024 at current US 10yr bond rates. That's over 700 billion they will have to raise through taxes or additional borrowing just to pay interest on what they already owe. You don't think that will have an affect on the economy or services government will be able to provide in future?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2020, 12:35:43 pm
If you think national economies work like household finances, then you really don't understand economics. It would take way too long to explain exactly why you're wrong, but consider that you don't change your household revenues with the stroke of a pen. It's an entirely different system.

However, as has been mentioned to you numerous times before, even in household finances, what's more important than your absolute debt is your ability to service your debt. If someone has millions of dollars tied up in assets, a $100,000 loan is nothing. When someone makes $25,000 per year, a $100,000 loan is massive.

When it comes to debt $1 is not the same as another $1.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:49:27 pm
If you think national economies work like household finances, then you really don't understand economics. It would take way too long to explain exactly why you're wrong, but consider that you don't change your household revenues with the stroke of a pen. It's an entirely different system.

However, as has been mentioned to you numerous times before, even in household finances, what's more important than your absolute debt is your ability to service your debt. If someone has millions of dollars tied up in assets, a $100,000 loan is nothing. When someone makes $25,000 per year, a $100,000 loan is massive.

When it comes to debt $1 is not the same as another $1.

Canada's debt got out of hand in the late eighties and early nineties, the result was Canada's credit rating was going in the dumpster forcing Chretien and Martin into slash and burn fiscal policies. Transfers to provinces, including health care were significantly reduced, military spending was cut by 30%.

So are you seriously saying our country would be in a good position if it had to sell off its assets in order to manage its debt?

You can have a 5 million dollar home but if you have a million dollar mortgage and a $100K income, you won't be living in it for very long. You would have a tough time paying the taxes and maintenance on it even if you had no mortgage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 10, 2020, 01:01:44 pm
We aren't paying for infrastructure, we borrow to build it all we do is carry the interest, we aren't actually "paying" for anything.

It's the same as me buying a car on a personal line of credit and never doing more than paying interest on the balance. One day the car is worth nothing but I still owe the same amount of money for it.

Are you sure ?  Last time I checked it was a pretty close match between investment and the deficit.

Maybe Waldo can help us.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 01:08:50 pm
Are you sure ?  Last time I checked it was a pretty close match between investment and the deficit.

Maybe Waldo can help us.

I'm not saying we shouldn't borrow to finance infrastructure, I'm saying pay off the debt, don't just pay the interest on it, passing the debt on to your grand children who will be stuck with replacing that infrastructure while carrying your debt as well. That is only an investment for you, it is a liability for future generations. Debt to GDP are just weasel words justifying never having to pay anything off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 01:14:56 pm
Contrary to what some of you are maintaining, the only difference between personal debt government debt is we don't pass our personal debts down to our children and grand children.

On edit.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 10, 2020, 01:43:18 pm
Contrary to what some of you are maintaining, the only difference between personal debt government debt is we don't pass our personal debts down to our children and grand children.

oh really! (https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+the+federal+budget+is+not+like+a+household+budget)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 01:46:33 pm
oh really! (https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+the+federal+budget+is+not+like+a+household+budget)

Ya really.

Let me put it this way. Say you are 23 years old, just finished university and have your first job in the permanent work force, the government debt doesn't change by one penny from what it is today and interest rates remain the same. If you make it to 90 years old, over 1.7 trillion dollars in interest will have been paid on money that was borrowed before you were 23.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 10, 2020, 01:55:02 pm
Why should I have to pay 100% of the costs of a bridge that will be around 50 years after I die ?

I'm ok with that stuff being paid off over time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 02:02:22 pm
Why should I have to pay 100% of the costs of a bridge that will be around 50 years after I die ?

I'm ok with that stuff being paid off over time.

Well if you are a certain age, you won't be around to see a lot of things get paid off but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid off.
If the Port Mann is amortized over 30 years I won't be around to see it paid off but that is no excuse to stick 100% of the cost on future generations.

 I'm OK with stuff being paid off over time as well but this debt to GDP nonsense is just to justify paying for stuff forever.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 10, 2020, 02:09:15 pm
1. Well if you are a certain age, you won't be around to see a lot of things get paid off but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid off.
If the Port Mann is amortized over 30 years I won't be around to see it paid off but that is no excuse to stick 100% of the cost on future generations.

2. I'm OK with stuff being paid off over time as well but this debt to GDP nonsense is just to justify paying for stuff forever.
1. Infrastructure is used over time, though.  Maybe you buy cars for cash but not everyone does.  It's maybe a fair idea to pay a bit every year so that those who pay tax in that year pay for something being used in that year.

2. Sort of, but it's also a useful stat in that it tells us what % of our wealth we are paying on.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 02:15:00 pm
1. Infrastructure is used over time, though.  Maybe you buy cars for cash but not everyone does.  It's maybe a fair idea to pay a bit every year so that those who pay tax in that year pay for something being used in that year.

2. Sort of, but it's also a useful stat in that it tells us what % of our wealth we are paying on.

It's not about paying cash for cars. If you buy a car on a loan, pay it off before you get rid of that car. Don't just add that debt to the debt you incur for its replacement.

It may be a useful stat but it isn't an excuse to go farther in debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on February 10, 2020, 02:23:24 pm
1. Infrastructure is used over time, though.

Infrastructure comes with 4 major cost components

1. Initial construction/installation cost
2. interest on monies borrowed to cover initial construction/installation
3. Annual recurring maintenance costs
4. Interest on monies borrowed to cover annual recurring maintenance costs

Hopefully we can all agree that #4 should be zero, or at maximum paid off within 12 months

I expect #2 & #3 are the largest cost items. While #3 may start off being a percentage of #1, over time I expect it will become larger than #1. Not all initial construction/installation costs will occur up front. If a major upgrade is made, say adding a lane to an existing highway, then that is really a new installation. If however a bridge span needs to be replaced because the initial span failed before expected lifetime then that is a maintenance cost. #3 should always be paid off withing 12 months.

That really leaves us with what lifetime should be used for infrastructure.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 10, 2020, 02:48:32 pm
1. It's not about paying cash for cars. If you buy a car on a loan, pay it off before you get rid of that car. 

2. It may be a useful stat but it isn't an excuse to go farther in debt.

1. The bridge is paid off at the end of its life just like the car.

2. A small amount of debt can be used as a tool... not a concern.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 02:57:47 pm
1. The bridge is paid off at the end of its life just like the car.

2. A small amount of debt can be used as a tool... not a concern.

The bridge was just an example, in fact I don't know if there is a schedule to pay it off, I hope there is.

My point is, using debt to GDP as a parameter to justify borrowing means there is no intention to pay it off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 10, 2020, 04:21:50 pm
Why should I have to pay 100% of the costs of a bridge that will be around 50 years after I die ?

I'm ok with that stuff being paid off over time.

Well ok let's say you're deferring part costs to future generations who will be future users.  But the problem with this logic (not least being the other costs Impact pointed out) is that there's always going to be things needed to be built, new bridges and roads etc. that future generations will need to build.  So why not just pay current costs off ASAP to avoid needless interest payments and save money?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 10, 2020, 05:06:44 pm
However, as has been mentioned to you numerous times before, even in household finances, what's more important than your absolute debt is your ability to service your debt. If someone has millions of dollars tied up in assets, a $100,000 loan is nothing. When someone makes $25,000 per year, a $100,000 loan is massive.

When it comes to debt $1 is not the same as another $1.

You're right about that yes of course.

Our government's position is that what really matters is debt-to-GDP, therefore since Canada's nominal GDP is going up right now and we have a moderate deficit and debt-to-GDP is actually going down it means our debt is in good shape, which allows us to run deficits in a decently good economy.  Ok I agree it's good that we're not going to default on our loans and debt-to-GDP is going down.

The problem with their logic is that nominal GDP over the longterm is always rising, and since nominal GDP is especially always rising during good economic times that means they will always have an excuse to run deficits as long as debt growth doesn't outstrip GDP growth.  If the Liberals run into a recession they will run even higher deficits to stimulate the economy as virtually every modern western country does, as they should.  Therefore they will be running deficits during both good and bad economic times.  So when exactly do we EVER pay off/pay down our debt?  Under this Liberal plan, the answer is never.  This is an unsustainable economic plan, and it's also very wasteful since we will be paying more and more money towards interest payments, which will also compound over time & incur more & more waste.

What the Liberals should be doing is using these times of decent growth to run surpluses as Chretien/Martin did to pay down our debt, and during bad economic times run deficits to stimulate the economy, then rinse and repeat.  This is sustainable.  The real reason the Trudeau gov doesn't want to do this is political.  They want to give away money and fund all sorts of projects in order to buy votes.  They don't need to be sustainable in the longterm and can pass the debt to future generations because they can, all that matters is keeping their jobs, which is unethical.  And they trot out all this debt-to-GDP stuff to convince people they're actually being fiscally responsible.  They certainly don't want to raise taxes to actually pay for their projects since that would be political suicide.  The voters who support all this BS are equally or more to blame.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on February 10, 2020, 05:11:15 pm
Well ok let's say you're deferring part costs to future generations who will be future users.  But the problem with this logic (not least being the other costs Impact pointed out) is that there's always going to be things needed to be built, new bridges and roads etc. that future generations will need to build.  So why not just pay current costs off ASAP to avoid needless interest payments and save money?

Infrastructure costs may be incurred all at once, if they were all built around the same time... it might not make sense to take a big hit at one time.

But I am thinking we are already using more sense than politics allows.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 11:19:08 am
One of the things that pisses me off about politicians in general is that instead of being more upfront about the realities of continually increasing the debt so people might lower their expectations a bit, they are continually looking for excuses to borrow even more without paying any of it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 02:20:09 pm
One of the things that pisses me off about politicians in general is that instead of being more upfront about the realities of continually increasing the debt

The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 02:25:05 pm
The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.

Sure does, why else do we have 768 billion in debt which will just continue to grow and we won't pay any of it back because we just keep borrowing when times are good because it is all about debt to GDP and not reality. 26 billion a year in interest. Our entire 26 billion deficit next year will just be paying interest on what we already owe.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 12, 2020, 02:26:03 pm
The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.

Math can be difficult, especially when it's politically biased.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 04:19:48 pm
Sure does, why else do we have 768 billion in debt which will just continue to grow and we won't pay any of it back because we just keep borrowing when times are good because it is all about debt to GDP and not reality.

If you want to be outraged, it's important to realize that our debt is far more than $1T.  $768 is simply the net debt, which subtracts some liquid and semi liquid assets.

No one measures deficits or debts nominally anymore, because it's meaningless.

[/quote]26 billion a year in interest. Our entire 26 billion deficit next year will just be paying interest on what we already owe.
[/quote]

We used to pay much more....at a time like this when inflation is higher than interest in the debt, it makes little sense to pay down debt, or indeed even refrain from borrowing (within reason).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 12, 2020, 05:32:59 pm
The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.

Never underestimate a Liberal government's (federal or provincial) willingness to buy off votes with other people's money.  Gerald Butts worked as Dalton McGuinty's principal advisor.  Straight outta the playbook.  Enough said.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 12, 2020, 05:34:55 pm
I wanted to call him Stinky Pete Von Buttfu*ker but I restrained myself!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 05:37:47 pm
Never underestimate a Liberal government's (federal or provincial) willingness to buy off votes with other people's money.  Gerald Butts worked as Dalton McGuinty's principal advisor.  Straight outta the playbook.  Enough said.

Liberals are in fact not the primary drivers of Canada's current debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 06:28:38 pm
Liberals are in fact not the primary drivers of Canada's current debt.

The party in power is the only driver of federal debt, it makes the budget.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 12, 2020, 06:50:15 pm
Liberals are in fact not the primary drivers of Canada's current debt.

Technically true.  Good job Mulroney!  That guy was a dolt.  We he tried to tax for the goodies (GST) the voters threw him out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 07:30:25 pm
Technically true.  Good job Mulroney!  That guy was a dolt.  We he tried to tax for the goodies (GST) the voters threw him out.

If it is all Mulroney's fault, I guess no government ever needs to balance a budget again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 12, 2020, 08:06:06 pm
If it is all Mulroney's fault, I guess no government ever needs to balance a budget again.

Not all Mulroney's fault. Harper did even "better". I guess the term "fiscal conservative" has a different meaning when applied by... conservatives.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 09:52:49 pm
Not all Mulroney's fault. Harper did even "better". I guess the term "fiscal conservative" has a different meaning when applied by... conservatives.

Harper had the 2009 economic meltdown and the Afghan war to deal with, By the time he left office the budget was balanced again. The deficit declined every year after 2010 and in 2012 was the  same as the 2020 forecast deficit. Trudeau has had neither and has added more to the debt in his first four years than Harper did in his last four.  If you can fault Harper for anything it was lowering the GST but even that is 20/20 hindsight because it was done before 2008.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2020, 10:19:41 pm
caution: Conservative canard ahead!

Harper had the 2009 economic meltdown

not only did Canada enter the recession later than other G7 nations... its impact was milder and shorter than in other G7 countries, lasting but 7 months: Canada entered later; impact was mildest and shortest within G7 nations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 12, 2020, 10:58:34 pm
not only did Canada enter the recession later than other G7 nations... its impact was milder and shorter than in other G7 countries, lasting but 7 months: Canada entered later; impact was mildest and shortest within G7 nations.

True, but what's your point?

A Liberal can say well he had it a bit easier.  A Conservative can say well it was easier because of the CPC did the right things.  Wilbur could sit here and tell you that Harper was the greatest fiscal leader of the OECD/G7 because under his belt Canada weathered the storm better than virtually any other OECD/G7 country.  And if a Liberal gov were governing in 2008 you'd make the exact same argument.  But both you and waldo wouldn't really be right.

I think Chretien/Martin managed well fiscally and I think Harper did too.  Neither perfect by any means, or either always ethical, but did well.  Nobody can say i'm partisan for saying that.  They follow the basic Keynesian theory that you stimulate an economy during a recession and pay that debt back during the good times.  Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 11:36:58 pm
caution: Conservative canard ahead!

not only did Canada enter the recession later than other G7 nations... its impact was milder and shorter than in other G7 countries, lasting but 7 months: Canada entered later; impact was mildest and shortest within G7 nations.

No doubt you would be giving a PM all the credit for that if they were a Liberal. Trudeau has had no recessions and no wars, just an economy that he claims is doing really well. So why do the deficits keep getting bigger every year?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2020, 12:52:59 am
True, but what's your point?

that the ever-go-to of Harper having to deal with "theGreatDepression" is a Conservative/CPC canard... Canada entered later, the impact was milder and the duration shorter (just 7 months) than that of any other G7 nation.

Wilbur could sit here and tell you that Harper was the greatest fiscal leader of the OECD/G7

waldo linkee dump:

=> 6 charts show Stephen Harper has the worst economic record of any Prime Minister since World War II (https://pressprogress.ca/6_charts_show_stephen_harper_has_the_worst_economic_record_of_any_prime_minister_since_world_war_ii/)

=> Harper’s economic record the worst in Canada’s postwar history (https://spon.ca/harpers-economic-record-the-worst-in-canadas-postwar-history/2015/09/17/)

=> Harper, Serial Abuser of Power: The Evidence Compiled (https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/08/10/Harper-Abuses-of-Power-Final/)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on February 13, 2020, 10:24:48 am
If you can fault Harper for anything it was lowering the GST but even that is 20/20 hindsight because it was done before 2008.

How about his tens of billions of dollar gift to [foreign] corporations with lowering corporate taxes so they could export their wealth out of Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 11:32:56 am
But, but Harper.

Trudeau campaigned on a couple of modest 10 billion deficits returning to a balanced budget. The closest he has come is a 14.6 billion deficit last year.

Since elected he has added 50.8 billion to the debt. The government's own fall update is forecasting adding another 95.2 billion to the debt by the 2022/23 fiscal year with an additional 28 billion in borrowing for the two years after that. That will be an addition of 146 billion to the national debt by the end of the 2022/23 fiscal year and 174 billion forecast total by 2025. Nearly a 25% increase in the debt by 2023. He is on track to add more to the federal debt than any PM who has not had a major recession or war during their tenure.

Those are actual government figures, not from op eds

I hope waldo is a geezer like me because he will be paying interest on that for the rest of his life and so will his children and grand children.

I will state it again. If our federal debt doesn't change at all and interest rates remained the same, by the time they are 85 a child born today will see over 2.2 trillion dollars in interest spent on money borrowed before they were born.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 13, 2020, 12:08:35 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

Trudeau won’t do this though as it is more politically expedient not to raise taxes. 

But suddenly all the “fiscal conservatives” would cheer a balanced budget?   Heck no...   I bet they’d be on this forum ranting and raving about the tax burden, rather than their current deficit rants. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 12:21:20 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

Trudeau won’t do this though as it is more politically expedient not to raise taxes. 

But suddenly all the “fiscal conservatives” would cheer a balanced budget?   Heck no...   I bet they’d be on this forum ranting and raving about the tax burden, rather than their current deficit rants.

Revenues were up by 21 billion last year and the government still borrowed 14.6 billion. They spent 36 billion more than the year before.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on February 13, 2020, 01:59:45 pm
Revenues were up by 21 billion last year and the government still borrowed 14.6 billion. They spent 36 billion more than the year before.

That doesn’t refute a thing I said. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on February 13, 2020, 02:35:13 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

Trudeau won’t do this though as it is more politically expedient not to raise taxes. 

But suddenly all the “fiscal conservatives” would cheer a balanced budget?   Heck no...   I bet they’d be on this forum ranting and raving about the tax burden, rather than their current deficit rants.

Harper was wrong to cut the GST%.  If he wanted to be fiscally conservative then cut spending and use that 2% to pay down the surplus at an even higher rate than Chretien did.

That said, Trudeau can't blame anyone for his own balance books, he can spend in any way he chooses and can tax in any way he chooses, he could have reversed that 2% GST cut as quickly as Harper got rid of it, he had a majority.
 
Actually if I had to choose i'd increase income taxes rather than increasing GST by 2% again.  GST & consumption taxes hurts the poor and rich alike.  But the burden on the middle and/or rich classes & exclude the poor.  I guess Trudeau and Morneau don't want to pay more taxes either.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 02:36:37 pm
That doesn’t refute a thing I said.

But, but, Harper. He hasn’t been PM for over four years. Bout time the new guy started taking some responsibility.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 02:38:39 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

No it wouldn’t because it is all about debt to GDP with these guys.
If the added tax is a drag on the economy and reduces GDP growth, it could have the opposite effect.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on February 14, 2020, 09:20:52 am
Since elected he has added 50.8 billion to the debt. The government's own fall update is forecasting adding another 95.2 billion to the debt by the 2022/23 fiscal year with an additional 28 billion in borrowing for the two years after that. That will be an addition of 146 billion to the national debt by the end of the 2022/23 fiscal year and 174 billion forecast total by 2025. Nearly a 25% increase in the debt by 2023. He is on track to add more to the federal debt than any PM who has not had a major recession or war during their tenure.

Mulroney added more debt than that during his first 6 years in office before the 1991 recession.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 14, 2020, 11:36:35 am
Mulroney added more debt than that during his first 6 years in office before the 1991 recession.

True but the eighties also had the highest global interest rates in history, we now have the lowest.. One result was Chretien and Martin made major changes in transfers putting more burden on provinces for things such as health care. Right now JT is on track to add about the same amount to the debt as his father, who had the 81 recession to contend with.

In his first four years, Mulroney added a bit less than PET in his last four. In his year as PM, Joe Clark actually added less than either of them did in any year they were in office. His minority government got turfed from office because he wanted to increase fuel taxes. Now we have a carbon tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2020, 08:15:59 pm
True but the eighties also had the highest global interest rates in history, we now have the lowest..

If interest rates go up, borrowing costs will increase.  Pension obligations will fall.  The effect at this point would be a wash.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 14, 2020, 08:57:15 pm
If interest rates go up, borrowing costs will increase.  Pension obligations will fall.  The effect at this point would be a wash.

If interests rates go up, government debt will go up, real estate prices will tank and people will be going bankrupt and walking away from their homes because they are mortgaged for more than they are worth. That's what happened in the eighties.

Pension plans will do well though.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2020, 01:16:51 pm
last fall, given election campaign conflicts, PM Trudeau asked former Progressive Conservative PM Joe Clark (as well as former PM Jean Chretien) to represent Canada at the UN General Assembly. And now PM Trudeau again reaches across the partisan divide to appoint former PM Joe Clark as special envoy for Canada's bid for a UN Security Council seat. 

a relatively recent pic of Joe Clark (itself a part of an interesting pic of living Prime Ministers who came together for John Turner's 90th birthday... those missing sent their best wishes/regrets for not attending - Harper, Mulroney, Campbell):

(https://i.imgur.com/azDeI3W.png)



 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2020, 07:30:25 pm
weakAndy and an assortment of ConMedia have been pumpin' the "Canada is broken" nonsense in recent weeks. No - Canada is not broken... thank you very much!

(https://i.imgur.com/fmcVxsV.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 09, 2020, 07:42:28 pm
Most indigenous protestors lighting fire to sh!t and blocking key infrastructure:  Canada
Most sub-national territories wanting to separate:  Canada
Most investors fleeing their country:  Canada

 ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 07:57:57 pm
Most indigenous protestors lighting fire to sh!t and blocking key infrastructure:  Canada
Most sub-national territories wanting to separate:  Canada
Most investors fleeing their country:  Canada

 ;D

Well for starters, have you ever heard of a country called India?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 09, 2020, 08:28:07 pm
Well for starters, have you ever heard of a country called India?

No.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 08:37:09 pm
No.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on March 09, 2020, 08:52:04 pm
I rest my case.

Your case is beyond rested... it's napping soundly.  I think Canada could be better ... and there are other places that are nice to live.  But most aren't as good IMO.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 08:57:54 pm
Your case is beyond rested... it's napping soundly.  I think Canada could be better ... and there are other places that are nice to live.  But most aren't as good IMO.

My point being that the problems suggested in the post I responded to are much more significant in many places beyond our borders.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on March 09, 2020, 09:57:13 pm
Yes and my twisted and shitty metaphor was supposed to clearly agree with you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 09, 2020, 10:08:31 pm
Guess we're going to get some more deficits this year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 10:15:28 pm
My point being that the problems suggested in the post I responded to are much more significant in many places beyond our borders.

I've had the good fortune to have traveled abroad a number of times, including to India, and while I have had great experience's along the way, I have always felt grateful when the wheels touched down on Canadian soil.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2020, 10:09:18 am
The party in power is the only driver of federal debt, it makes the budget.
You're confusing deficit and debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on March 10, 2020, 01:53:51 pm
Guess we're going to get some more deficits this year.

Along with everyone else in the world. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 10, 2020, 02:16:07 pm
Along with everyone else in the world.

And so far it looks like we'll suffer less of a hit than say Italy who's economy was already in decline. And with Trump's continued stumbling and bumbling the US may get hurt bigly. Luckily state governors and certain ceo's such as of airlines are taking the bull by the horns to keep things moving as best they can.   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 10, 2020, 04:16:29 pm
You're confusing deficit and debt.
It’s debt, just not the debt. Permanent debt if don’t plan on paying it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 10, 2020, 04:17:58 pm
Guess we're going to get some more deficits this year.

They were projecting 26 billion for this year, expect north of 40.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on March 11, 2020, 09:37:30 am
It’s debt, just not the debt. Permanent debt if don’t plan on paying it back.
If you think governments should never run deficits, you have a tenuous grasp on macro economics (to say the least).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 11:20:43 am
If you think governments should never run deficits, you have a tenuous grasp on macro economics (to say the least).

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? My problem is borrowing with no intention of ever paying it back and depending on growth and inflation to make it sustainable. We have been borrowing for the last four years while the economy was expanding and now we will have to borrow a hell of a lot more as the economy retracts. The debt to GDP types are about to get a waker upper.


Keynesian economics say you save while times are good so you can afford to borrow when they are bad. The debt to GDP types say, screw that, let's just borrow all the time and the future will look after itself. Insha Alla.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on March 11, 2020, 01:16:20 pm
My problem is borrowing with no intention of ever paying it back and depending on growth and inflation to make it sustainable.

As long as the debt:GDP ratio is decreasing, it is being paid back. Not as fast as you may like, but dramatic changes tend to result in either higher taxes or cutting back on essential services. The "no intention of ever paying it back" is pure rhetoric.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 01:37:59 pm
As long as the debt:GDP ratio is decreasing, it is being paid back. Not as fast as you may like, but dramatic changes tend to result in either higher taxes or cutting back on essential services. The "no intention of ever paying it back" is pure rhetoric.

It won't be decreasing with government vastly increasing borrowing with the economy sinking due to  these crisis, it will be going up markedly. You can't borrow more money with your income going down and maintain the same dept to income ratio. What is so difficult for you to understand about that? You seem to think continually living beyond your means is some kind of right.
 
It isn't pure rhetoric, it means paying interest forever on money you spent long ago at interest rates you can't foresee.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 11, 2020, 08:06:56 pm
As long as the debt:GDP ratio is decreasing, it is being paid back.

 :D  LOL what??

No it isn't.  The only thing debt-to-GDP measures is the ability to potentially pay back debt, as well as ability to service current debt loan/interest payments.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 09:49:19 pm
:D  LOL what??

No it isn't.  The only thing debt-to-GDP measures is the ability to potentially pay back debt, as well as ability to service current debt loan/interest payments.

Yup, it just says if you can keep borrowing at the same rate as the economy is growing, or not. It has nothing to do with paying anything back
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on March 11, 2020, 11:46:36 pm
You guys really need to listen to economists and stop thinking you know everything:

https://twitter.com/lindsaytedds/status/1237877347916730368?s=21

https://twitter.com/kevinmilligan/status/1237380418808057856?s=21

They both echo what the PBO said last week.  Canada’s federal government is well placed fiscally.  There is no danger with this deficit or one more than twice the size.  It costs Ottawa so little to borrow money at the moment that it’s actually irresponsible to not use the capacity.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 11:53:21 pm
You guys really need to listen to economists and stop thinking you know everything:

https://twitter.com/lindsaytedds/status/1237877347916730368?s=21

https://twitter.com/kevinmilligan/status/1237380418808057856?s=21

They both echo what the PBO said last week.  Canada’s federal government is well placed fiscally.  There is no danger with this deficit or one more than twice the size.  It costs Ottawa so little to borrow money at the moment that it’s actually irresponsible to not use the capacity.

Gawd.

The government will have to borrow tons because of this epidemic and its effect on the economy, it's just too bad it can't control its spending when times are good. Man I'm glad you guys don't have control over my personal finances, I would be up to my neck in hock for no other reason than I can afford the payments.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on March 12, 2020, 11:13:29 am
Gawd.

The government will have to borrow tons because of this epidemic and its effect on the economy, it's just too bad it can't control its spending when times are good. Man I'm glad you guys don't have control over my personal finances, I would be up to my neck in hock for no other reason than I can afford the payments.

Gawd I’m glad I don’t think I’m an expert on everything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 11:33:37 am
Gawd I’m glad I don’t think I’m an expert on everything.

You don't need to be an expert where just a little logic is required.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 02:32:48 pm
I guess some people don't understand that when you run up debt when you don't need to, you reduce your capacity to borrow when you do need to.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2020, 02:41:36 pm
I guess some people don't understand that when you run up debt when you don't need to, you reduce your capacity to borrow when you do need to.

Nobody said that. The question is what is the need, or more specifically what is the investment and the return on that investment?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 02:43:14 pm
Nobody said that. The question is what is the need, or more specifically what is the investment and the return on that investment?

There is zero return if you never pay it back, it just becomes a burden with no value.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on March 12, 2020, 03:01:23 pm
:D  LOL what??

No it isn't.  The only thing debt-to-GDP measures is the ability to potentially pay back debt, as well as ability to service current debt loan/interest payments.

Think about it this way:  if you're 12 and your only income comes from doing chores around the house, $200 is a big debt that will take forever to pay off.   If you're a grown-up with a decent job, $200 is easily manageable. Most of us accumulate and pay off $200 or more of credit card debt every month. The size of the debt relative to our income is what's most important.

Another thing to keep in mind is that government debt is actually being repaid (and renewed) all the time. Government debt is financed by issuing bonds that are repaid after a fixed duration.  Old bonds are continually being repaid, and new bonds are continually being reissued.

One danger is that people might decide that government bonds are not a good investment anymore.  This could happen if:

 -people are not sure your country will exist long enough to pay back their bonds. (Canada bonds should be fine, I think.)
 -people don't think your government will be able to pay back their bonds when they are due.
 -people decide that the interest rates you are offering are not attractive.  For example, if interest rates are low, or inflation is high, people might want to invest in something else.

But we do, you know, have to come up with the money to pay back the bonds that come due every year, and in a year when we are going to have big unplanned expenses and a big unexpected drop in revenue, that is going to be a headache.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 06:13:46 pm


But we do, you know, have to come up with the money to pay back the bonds that come due every year, and in a year when we are going to have big unplanned expenses and a big unexpected drop in revenue, that is going to be a headache.

 -k

Bingo. But you really aren't paying back anything, you are just rolling over debt at an interest rate you can't predict in the future. Like renewing a mortgage every five or so years, except you didn't pay off any of the principal, you just paid the interest.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 07:45:13 pm
Bingo. But you really aren't paying back anything, you are just rolling over debt at an interest rate you can't predict in the future. Like renewing a mortgage every five or so years, except you didn't pay off any of the principal, you just paid the interest.

Not exactly how mortgages work, but yes of course the lender will structure the payments so the initial payments are mostly interest and small principal which will swap over the term of the mortgage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 07:53:27 pm
Not exactly how mortgages work, but yes of course the lender will structure the payments so the initial payments are mostly interest and small principal which will swap over the term of the mortgage.

When you pay off a mortgage, the portion of the payment paying interest gradually declines and the portion going on principal increases as you pay off the principal. The debt to GDP con means you never pay off any of the principal and all of your payment goes into paying interest. Every five years you have to renew at the going interest rate. Government bonds also have to be turned over at specified periods. Back in the eighties, my mortgage went from 9% to 18% when I renewed. Fortunately I could handle it as could many at the time because their debt load was lower. If interest rates went to 5% today, our economy would collapse because most people couldn't absorb the increase and stay solvent.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 12, 2020, 08:48:22 pm
Think about it this way:  if you're 12 and your only income comes from doing chores around the house, $200 is a big debt that will take forever to pay off.   If you're a grown-up with a decent job, $200 is easily manageable. Most of us accumulate and pay off $200 or more of credit card debt every month. The size of the debt relative to our income is what's most important.

Yes i'm well aware what debt-to-gdp means.  It has its use.  But just because a country's debt-to-gdp is shrinking while still running deficits that doesn't mean you're being fiscally responsible.  Your debt-to-gdp is supposed to shrink during good economic times because your gdp is going to be doing well and your need for debt is minimal.  My point is now is the time to pay down the debt a bit, we just borrowed a crapload for years to recover from the "great recession".  And when bad times hit again, like now, we can responsible pour in the deficit to stimulate the economy and be in a sounder financial position.  If we saved those 20 billion deficits up and instead added them to the billions we'll be putting out for the massive sh!t-kicking the TSX is taking right now we'd be much better off.

Our economy is in desperate shape.  Alberta is being gutted and I don't think its coming back, the TSX lost 12% of its total value today IN ONE DAY, that's 12% of the entire Canadian economy evaporated.  This is when you run deficits.  Chretien/Martin knew it.  Kevin Milligan can suck my d!ck.

I'm not going to argue with these Liberal a$$-lickers, if Trudeau were running surpluses they'd defend that too.  **** these partisan sh!t-f*ckers.  I hate partisans.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 09:01:51 pm
Quote
Think about it this way:  if you're 12 and your only income comes from doing chores around the house, $200 is a big debt that will take forever to pay off.   If you're a grown-up with a decent job, $200 is easily manageable. Most of us accumulate and pay off $200 or more of credit card debt every month. The size of the debt relative to our income is what's most important.

And if that kid takes a 20% cut in what he is making from doing the chores, he still owes $200.

In a recession, revenues (GDP) go down while deficits and debt go way up because not only does government not have the revenues but it has to spend much more to stimulate the economy. That's something these debt to GDP shills either don't understand or care about.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on March 13, 2020, 08:34:29 am
I'm not going to argue with these Liberal a$$-lickers, if Trudeau were running surpluses they'd defend that too.  **** these partisan sh!t-f*ckers.  I hate partisans.

Interesting statement, I will have to think on that a bit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2020, 10:16:30 am
Interesting statement, I will have to think on that a bit.

Except for the last paragraph and the last line of the previous paragraph, I agree with Covid. 100%.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on March 13, 2020, 11:20:31 am
Sophie Trudeau has COVID-19 - the real thing.
Justin is self-isolating with her - should he maybe be away from her instead?

I don't know what the run on toilet paper is about - its viral pneumonia, not stomach flu.

I do believe that all avoidance of groups of people is wise. I especially think it's wise to avoid air travel - big, enclosed silver sky tubes recirculating viruses.

I use alcohol to clean all surfaces I touch, carry a small spray bottle & tissues with me.

Senior with existing respiratory issues ... so I mostly stay home.  Fine with me. It's still cold out.  Lol
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2020, 11:24:09 am
I use alcohol to clean all surfaces I touch, carry a small spray bottle & tissues with me.

Senior with existing respiratory issues ... so I mostly stay home.  Fine with me. It's still cold out.  Lol

A lot of the people who post on here and MLW seem to be older retired folks.  I'm not at that age, so I worry about you guys and other retirees I know.  Stay well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on March 13, 2020, 12:07:43 pm
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 12:13:48 pm
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k

I listened to that as well and it seemed like a breath of fresh air (so to speak) compared to what we've heard from the WH.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 13, 2020, 12:33:28 pm
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k

I haven't seen it yet, but he made a good speech concerning the aboriginal blockades too.  I'm glad our leader has some leadership qualities.  Haven't watched Trumps speech,  but he's never been a good speaker.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on March 14, 2020, 02:04:58 pm
A lot of the people who post on here and MLW seem to be older retired folks.  I'm not at that age, so I worry about you guys and other retirees I know.  Stay well.

That's very nice of you!
I can stay home.
I worry about the people who have to work, especially direct customer service.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on March 18, 2020, 08:43:34 am
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k

As was pointed out, the leaders we have are not used to the responsibilities, the thinking and the delegation and other skills you need to deal with something this huge.

I am cutting all of them slack. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 01, 2020, 07:59:09 pm
Last week, if you recall, the CPC said that the Liberals were trying to grab power, with temporary measures that were seen as overreach.

This week, the Conservatives are all too happy to point out that Parliament needs to be recalled because the bill that was passed, in fact isn't broad enough.  It's almost as if the original bill was the one....

I hate Conservatives.  Never again will I vote Conservative.  This crisis is beyond politics, and they are, beyond petty.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 01, 2020, 10:15:21 pm
Last week, if you recall, the CPC said that the Liberals were trying to grab power, with temporary measures that were seen as overreach.

This week, the Conservatives are all too happy to point out that Parliament needs to be recalled because the bill that was passed, in fact isn't broad enough.  It's almost as if the original bill was the one....

Interesting, I thought they had put in for September for unlimited budget power, but I guess that was just a proposal.  I'd be ok with September.  Or at least like 3 months, and then extend it if need be.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 02, 2020, 01:16:31 am
Interesting, I thought they had put in for September for unlimited budget power, but I guess that was just a proposal.  I'd be ok with September.  Or at least like 3 months, and then extend it if need be.

The powers they ended up with were very narrow And until June.  It’s all the Conservatives would agree to.  The Bloc was willing to go with all spending and taxing power until September.  Now the Conservatives are blaming the government for writing a narrow bill.  You can’t make it up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 02, 2020, 05:37:07 pm
Last week, if you recall, the CPC said that the Liberals were trying to grab power, with temporary measures that were seen as overreach.

This week, the Conservatives are all too happy to point out that Parliament needs to be recalled because the bill that was passed, in fact isn't broad enough.  It's almost as if the original bill was the one....

I hate Conservatives.  Never again will I vote Conservative.  This crisis is beyond politics, and they are, beyond petty.

and the usual suspects here wigged out over "it"... it being a draft starting point for review/negotiation between parties; one that was purposely leaked to - surprise, surprise... the G&M's azzhole Fife. It wasn't worth my interest to bother countering the nonsense... until now, as a handy 15 tweet threadreader thread was put together to summarize all the underhanded Scheer/CPC bullshyte:

(https://i.imgur.com/PThqGE3.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 02, 2020, 06:35:35 pm
https://twitter.com/RodAVanier/status/1245785512713113600?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 02, 2020, 09:24:06 pm
https://twitter.com/RodAVanier/status/1245785512713113600?s=20

Ouch..   that's a harsh thing to say... not that it's wrong though....   The CPC tried playing politics with this.  I'm glad some politicians are willing to call out that BS.   This is going to damage the CPC, and rightfully so...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 07, 2020, 09:50:26 pm
It took 2 weeks for the capitalist system that we live within to completely break down and be useless to nearly all of us.  Groceries might be the only exception.

The entire country, in fact even our friends to the south, have turned to socialism to bail us all out and keep us from being completely destitute. 

I hope the pendulum will swing left in a big way after the pandemic blows over. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 07, 2020, 10:37:22 pm
It took 2 weeks for the capitalist system that we live within to completely break down and be useless to nearly all of us.  Groceries might be the only exception.

How so?  Virtually all necessities are still available and supply chains have been surprisingly resilient.  Grocery stores, gas stations, restaurants, news media etc are still functioning.

Quote
The entire country, in fact even our friends to the south, have turned to socialism to bail us all out and keep us from being completely destitute.

Government provides a safety net when things hit the sh!tter.  I'm thankful they can help the people who need it now, and have helped stabilize markets a bit.

Quote
I hope the pendulum will swing left in a big way after the pandemic blows over.

In what way specifically?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 08, 2020, 01:23:45 am
How so?

Have you not noticed that virtually every business in the country has shut down except for the ones that the government deems “essential”?   

Quote
Virtually all necessities are still available and supply chains have been surprisingly resilient.  Grocery stores, gas stations, restaurants, news media etc are still functioning.

Because gov’t deems them essential. 

Quote
Government provides a safety net when things hit the sh!tter.

So you’re a socialist who pretends to be a free market capitalist when it suits you.


Quote
I'm thankful they can help the people who need it now, and have helped stabilize markets a bit.

Yeah...  no sh!t... the social safety net.

Quote
In what way specifically?

Government needs to nationalize industries like all healthcare, research into pharmaceuticals, and energy.    Alberta’s private electric companies are a failure compared to BC’s crown corp for hydro-electric.   

Commercial land ownership should fall to the provinces, so in the event of another disaster they can forgive rents. 

Universities and private industry needs to be forced to research bio-tech to alleviate pandemics.   

The manufacture of personal safety devices needs to be nationalized so the Americans can’t hold us hostage.  Drug patents need to be curtailed. 

The pandemic response was a guaranteed income for everyone.  There needs to be a national Guaranteed Monthly Income all the time so that when a disaster occurs it can simply be scaled up instead of having to re-invent ways to pay people, which we did anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 08, 2020, 12:04:39 pm
Have you not noticed that virtually every business in the country has shut down except for the ones that the government deems “essential”?   

Because gov’t deems them essential.

So government deserves a pat on the back for feeding humanity because they didn't force grocery stores to all close?

Quote
So you’re a socialist who pretends to be a free market capitalist when it suits you.

I'm not nor have I ever been a free-market capitalist.  But I am a capitalist, and I believe in a social safety net too.  That's what we have now, it's been working.

Quote
Government needs to nationalize industries like all healthcare, research into pharmaceuticals, and energy.

Why?

Quote
Alberta’s private electric companies are a failure compared to BC’s crown corp for hydro-electric.

Go look at what the Ontario government has done to their hydro system the last 20 years.  I really don't care if it's private or public as long as it's run well and it's affordable.

Quote
Commercial land ownership should fall to the provinces, so in the event of another disaster they can forgive rents. 

The provinces are already broke, I don't see how they're going to be able to afford to buy up all commercial land.  Then they have to administer it.

Quote
Universities and private industry needs to be forced to research bio-tech to alleviate pandemics.   

There's plenty of motivation for private companies to research biotech because any company that finds a vaccine for COVID will be ridiculously wealthy.  But we also should have government research into diseases too, which we have.

Quote
The manufacture of personal safety devices needs to be nationalized so the Americans can’t hold us hostage.  Drug patents need to be curtailed.

We do need some way to ensure that Canada is able to manufacture such equipment in an emergency.  Many Canadian companies have volunteered to produce them for us.  We also need to create stockpiles so this doesn't happen again.

Quote
The pandemic response was a guaranteed income for everyone.  There needs to be a national Guaranteed Monthly Income all the time so that when a disaster occurs it can simply be scaled up instead of having to re-invent ways to pay people, which we did anyway.

Maybe.  On the other hand we basically scaled up the EI program and so far so good.  Masses of people haven't been going homeless or starving.  I guess we'll see what comes out of this.  I don't think we need to re-invent the economy and nationalize entire industries because of a once-in-a-century emergency.  Maybe we just need to improve our emergency responses and infrastructure.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 08, 2020, 06:50:10 pm
I think that went way over your head. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 08:20:04 pm
It took 2 weeks for the capitalist system that we live within to completely break down and be useless to nearly all of us.  Groceries might be the only exception.

...

Have you not noticed that virtually every business in the country has shut down except for the ones that the government deems “essential”?   

So to summarize your argument: capitalism is a failure, and the evidence is that all the businesses that the government forced to shut down are now shut down?

...

...

I can only imagine that sounded better in your head.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 08, 2020, 08:26:12 pm
I think that went way over your head.

That's not an argument.  Tell me why it went over my head.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2020, 08:30:04 pm
That's not an argument.  Tell me why it went over my head.

He probably hasn't got enough time to waste to do that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 08, 2020, 08:45:56 pm
He probably hasn't got enough time to waste to do that.

Why do you hate me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O8xCCS0Aac
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2020, 09:14:05 pm
Why do you hate me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O8xCCS0Aac

I don't, otherwise I wouldn't reply/quote.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 08, 2020, 09:20:42 pm
...

So to summarize your argument: capitalism is a failure, and the evidence is that all the businesses that the government forced to shut down are now shut down?

...

...

I can only imagine that sounded better in your head.

 -k

Fair enough...  I may not have explained it as well as I could have... 

What is keeping businesses afloat?  Money from gov’t.  What’s keeping people from losing everything?  Government programs, money from government, forgiveness of hydro bills.

You think this is the free market at its best?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 09:44:27 pm
Fair enough...  I may not have explained it as well as I could have... 

What is keeping businesses afloat?  Money from gov’t.  What’s keeping people from losing everything?  Government programs, money from government, forgiveness of hydro bills.

You think this is the free market at its best?

I don't think anybody here is advocating for a purely laissez-faire dog-eat-dog let 'em die system. It seems like you're jousting with a straw man.

But yes, our government is going to be providing a lot of people and businesses with significant help for the next several years.

And the main reason our government is able to provide such substantial aid right now is that our very successful capitalist economy has provided our country with the financial capability to do so.

People are willing to lend our government money because they're confident that it'll be paid back.  Our government's ability to borrow represents confidence in our economic system. In short, our government's ability to provide aid during this crisis is not evidence that capitalism has failed, it is proof that capitalism has worked well for us.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 08, 2020, 10:06:55 pm
I don't, otherwise I wouldn't reply/quote.

You love me?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2020, 10:13:27 pm
You love me?

I'm a fan of humanity. Don't push your luck.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 08, 2020, 10:14:02 pm
I don't think anybody here is advocating for a purely laissez-faire dog-eat-dog let 'em die system. It seems like you're jousting with a straw man.

But yes, our government is going to be providing a lot of people and businesses with significant help for the next several years.

And the main reason our government is able to provide such substantial aid right now is that our very successful capitalist economy has provided our country with the financial capability to do so.

People are willing to lend our government money because they're confident that it'll be paid back.  Our government's ability to borrow represents confidence in our economic system. In short, our government's ability to provide aid during this crisis is not evidence that capitalism has failed, it is proof that capitalism has worked well for us.

 -k

Exactly.  Capitalism and government work together.  You can't have too much of either or sh!t hits the fan.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 09, 2020, 07:21:36 pm
Exactly.  Capitalism and government work together.  You can't have too much of either or sh!t hits the fan.

As someone benefiting immensely from this (I've probably made about 30K profit at work this week alone) I can tell you that we're still far too one sided.  We need more government in our lives.  This crisis proves it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 07:33:34 pm
As someone benefiting immensely from this (I've probably made about 30K profit at work this week alone) I can tell you that we're still far too one sided.  We need more government in our lives.  This crisis proves it.

Does it? Where is the government's money going to come from with revenues in the tank? Who will lend it money if people have no money to lend?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 09, 2020, 07:41:19 pm
Does it? Where is the government's money going to come from with revenues in the tank? Who will lend it money if people have no money to lend?

The gov’t won’t get money while it’s like this.  No one has said otherwise.  Stop creating straw-men to argue against. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 07:47:07 pm
The gov’t won’t get money while it’s like this.  No one has said otherwise.  Stop creating straw-men to argue against.

What straw man? Governments need revenues to pay bills and convince lenders they are worth the risk. Governments do not create wealth, they just redistribute it. I'm not anti government but would like you guys to explain why we need more government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 09, 2020, 07:49:53 pm
What straw man? Governments need revenues to pay bills and convince lenders they are worth the risk. Governments do not create wealth, they just redistribute it. I'm not anti government but would like you guys to explain why we need more government.

Governments DO have revenues...   we were shorting ourselves by not taxing enough.  The fact that the crisis has dried up revenues is obvious and foreseeable.  And no one has said otherwise.  You are arguing as if someone has said otherwise.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 09, 2020, 08:02:52 pm
As someone benefiting immensely from this (I've probably made about 30K profit at work this week alone) I can tell you that we're still far too one sided.  We need more government in our lives.  This crisis proves it.

But that's too vague.  It all depends on the exact nature of what the "more government" is.  Better government in place to deal with pandemic emergencies?  Ok sounds good.  More research into diseases?  Ok sounds good.  But squid wants to use this crisis as an excuse to nationalize key sectors of the economy.

This crisis also proves that everyone should have a month or 2 of income in savings in case some emergency likes this happens so they can pay for food and bills if they lose all income.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:09:44 pm
Governments DO have revenues...   we were shorting ourselves by not taxing enough.  The fact that the crisis has dried up revenues is obvious and foreseeable.  And no one has said otherwise.  You are arguing as if someone has said otherwise.

Revenues from what? Have you seen the latest unemployment figures? You are going to get the economy back on track by taxing fewer people and businesses even more? I don't know where this is going to end other than the national debt could easily double in the next few years and we were already borrowing to pay interest on what we already owed. It needs to be done but the result isn't going to be pretty and we may never dig our way out of the hole to where we were when this began. They're estimating a 170 billion deficit this year, that's a 25% increase in the debt in one year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:17:56 pm
I got an interesting email from our financial advisor yesterday. They advised selling some shares we have in a US investment bank and putting it into gold shares. Gold has never been a part of their model portfolio in the past so this is a major change for them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 09, 2020, 08:19:00 pm
Revenues from what? Have you seen the latest unemployment figures? You are going to get the economy back on track by taxing fewer people and businesses even more? I don't know where this is going to end other than the national debt could easily double in the next few years and we were already borrowing to pay interest on what we already owed. It needs to be done but the result isn't going to be pretty and we may never dig our way out of the hole to where we were when this began. They're estimating a 170 billion deficit this year, that's a 25% increase in the debt in one year.

Jesus man....   did I not just say in the post you responded to that no one is saying that revenues haven’t gone off a cliff due to the crisis...????
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:19:48 pm
Jesus man....   did I not just say in the post you responded to that no one is saying that revenues haven’t gone off a cliff due to the crisis...????

So why do we need more government?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 09, 2020, 08:38:02 pm
But that's too vague.  It all depends on the exact nature of what the "more government" is.  Better government in place to deal with pandemic emergencies?  Ok sounds good.  More research into diseases?  Ok sounds good.  But squid wants to use this crisis as an excuse to nationalize key sectors of the economy.

This crisis also proves that everyone should have a month or 2 of income in savings in case some emergency likes this happens so they can pay for food and bills if they lose all income.

I'm talking about taxing so that we can have the society most Canadians seem to want. Better funded health with pharma-care et al, an already established emergency benefit system, etc, etc. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:56:43 pm
I'm talking about taxing so that we can have the society most Canadians seem to want. Better funded health with pharma-care et al, an already established emergency benefit system, etc, etc.

Even if you were taxing for all that stuff before this happened, you can't do it now. The only source is borrowed money because the tax revenues have disappeared and so has the means to impose them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 09:02:53 pm
Well squid, where is the money going to come from, taxing millions of unemployed and bankrupt businesses?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 09, 2020, 10:02:17 pm
I'm talking about taxing so that we can have the society most Canadians seem to want. Better funded health with pharma-care et al, an already established emergency benefit system, etc, etc.

My province definitely needs more healthcare funding, our system is a joke.  My provincial government has also been incompetent the last 20 years, which is sad.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: BC_cheque on April 09, 2020, 10:52:54 pm
Trudea and Morneau are trying desperately to keep things going and I commend their efforts, but I think they've been way too generous with businesses.

They've expanded the 75% subsidy (to a max 58K salary) so far that pretty much every CCPC can get it whether or not they actually need it. 

They've asked *really nicely* to please hire back laid off employees, but the funds will go to any company that can show a loss within their criteria, even if they haven't laid off anyone. 

But but but... now they won't have to.   ::)

It's pretty circular logic to me.  Instead of giving it to companies 'in case' they need it, I think the money would be hella lot better spent subsidizing people who actually lose their jobs at a 75-80% rate instead of 55% EI. 

If the job losses are short term, they employees can come back.  If they're long term losses, the company will need regrouping at which time down the road, the government can spend the money stimulating businesses to hire people back and/or start new businesses.

Too many companies are going to get a jackpot for no reason while someone who lost their 100K/year job is going to be getting 2k/month.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Liberals are Conservatives who go to gay parades.  I'm not impressed.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 11, 2020, 01:53:04 am
Wage subsidies were the wrong way to go...   greedy businesses are now cutting wages.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/federal-wage-subsidy-pay-cuts_ca_5e90b492c5b68ee900d169f1?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage

The government should have just stuck with better/quicker EI.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 11, 2020, 12:22:52 pm
Governments DO have revenues...   we were shorting ourselves by not taxing enough.  The fact that the crisis has dried up revenues is obvious and foreseeable.  And no one has said otherwise.  You are arguing as if someone has said otherwise.

Their revenues come from the economy. The economy is in the tank so what or who are you going to tax. You can't get blood out of a stone remember.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 14, 2020, 04:29:47 pm
Dumb f*ck Scheer has been defending his plane ride all day.  Trudeau has been defending himself too when he visited his family in QC.  F*ck these hypocrities. Elizabeth May?  Who knows what that crazy loon has been doing today, nobody seems to care.

Nice to know there's 2 separate rules for the elitist a-holes and us plebes.  I'm not as mad as I seem given my use of profanity...I just like using profanity!

For those who want to chastise Scheer but defend Trudeau (or the other way around), please voice your opinion here so we can have your partisanship and hypocrisy on record yet again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 19, 2020, 12:57:27 pm
Some great points, especially about for-profit pharmaceuticals, and how capitalism is hurting the response to this pandemic.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/03/20/capitalism-is-an-incubator-for-pandemics-socialism-is-the-solution/

Quote
Currently, multiple for-profit companies are attempting to test (sometimes new, sometimes previously rejected and now recycled) therapies to see if they can treat or prevent COVID-19. While there are attempts to produce a COVID-19 vaccine, this vaccine would not be ready for testing in human trials for a few months according to Peter Marks, the director of the FDA’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research. Yet even last week, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar refused to guarantee a newly developed coronavirus vaccine would be affordable to all stating, “we can’t control that price because we need the private sector to invest.” The statement is ironic to say the least coming from the former top lobbyist to Eli Lilly who served at a time when the company’s drug prices went up significantly.

Canada should nationalize pharmaceutical research, development and production. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 19, 2020, 01:02:40 pm
Canada should nationalize pharmaceutical research, development and production.

This is one of those topics that's useless without some experts to help discuss.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 19, 2020, 01:45:02 pm
This is one of those topics that's useless without some experts to help discuss.

You’re wrong of course.  People can inform themselves and have thoughtful opinions on the subject.

Interesting take on pharma’s abandoning research for medications that aren’t profitable.

https://jacobinmag.com/2013/06/socialize-big-pharma

A good podcast by Sam Harris that touches on the subject.
https://samharris.org/podcasts/166-plague-years/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2020, 04:56:37 pm
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/03/20/capitalism-is-an-incubator-for-pandemics-socialism-is-the-solution/

Canada should nationalize pharmaceutical research, development and production.

No they shouldn't.  Then you create a government monopoly.  Why would you do that?  What they should do is keep private research but also have well-funded national research too, best of both worlds and lots of competition to innovate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 05:07:01 pm
No they shouldn't.  Then you create a government monopoly.  Why would you do that?  What they should do is keep private research but also have well-funded national research too, best of both worlds and lots of competition to innovate.

You'd be well advised to take a look at healthcare south of the border and you' probably change your mind.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2020, 05:12:47 pm
You'd be well advised to take a look at healthcare south of the border and you' probably change your mind.

Show me a country that has nationalized it's pharmaceutical industry and has had great success and innovation and maybe i'd change my mind.  These things need to be decided based on evidence, and if it hasn't been done before I don't really want my country to be the guinea pig.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 05:16:37 pm
Show me a country that has nationalized it's pharmaceutical industry and has had great success and innovation and maybe i'd change my mind.  These things need to be decided based on evidence, and if it hasn't been done before I don't really want my country to be the guinea pig.

So you don't mind if, heaven forbid you come down with a disease that requires a pill 4 times a day that costs a hundred bucks each and you end up losing your house. Donald Trump would welcome your approach.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2020, 07:15:51 pm
So you don't mind if, heaven forbid you come down with a disease that requires a pill 4 times a day that costs a hundred bucks each and you end up losing your house. Donald Trump would welcome your approach.

My province has a pharmacare plan for people that can't afford their medications, so that won't happen.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 07:17:21 pm
My province has a pharmacare plan for people that can't afford their medications, so that won't happen.

I think you just contradicted yourself.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2020, 07:42:17 pm
I think you just contradicted yourself.

I think you have basic reading comprehension issues.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 08:00:05 pm
I think you have basic reading comprehension issues.

You on the one hand criticize countries as to having socialized drug plans and then brag about having exactly that. Perhaps it's your thinking skills that are loacking.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 19, 2020, 08:03:08 pm
You on the one hand criticize countries as to having socialized drug plans and then brag about having exactly that. Perhaps it's your thinking skills that are loacking.



Where did he criticize that? He was critical of nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry, not pharmacare.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2020, 08:04:25 pm
You on the one hand criticize countries as to having socialized drug plans and then brag about having exactly that. Perhaps it's your thinking skills that are loacking.

I've never said I was against drug care for low incomes or people in need.  I've said in the past that i'm not for universal pharmacare.  Don't you think rich people should pay for their meds or for an insurance plan?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 08:20:51 pm
I've never said I was against drug care for low incomes or people in need.  I've said in the past that i'm not for universal pharmacare.  Don't you think rich people should pay for their meds or for an insurance plan?

Rich people pay more tax than poor people but all in all that keeps a universal health care system afloat and ours is enviable compared to what poor folks face in the US, for instance. If we can include pharmaceuticals in that such as you seem to be enjoying then so much the better. It also brings down costs because governments can buy in bulk.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 19, 2020, 09:10:21 pm
I've never said I was against drug care for low incomes or people in need.  I've said in the past that i'm not for universal pharmacare.  Don't you think rich people should pay for their meds or for an insurance plan?


In BC your pharmacare deductible is determined from the taxable income on your past two years income tax returns.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2020, 09:16:38 pm
Rich people pay more tax than poor people but all in all that keeps a universal health care system afloat and ours is enviable compared to what poor folks face in the US, for instance. If we can include pharmaceuticals in that such as you seem to be enjoying then so much the better. It also brings down costs because governments can buy in bulk.

What problem are you trying to solve?  Is there a problem of people not being able to afford medication?  I just don't see it.  We already have systems in place for th is for people who have lower incomes etc.

We'd have to raise taxes and then pay for the bureaucracies to administer it.  Again, I don't see enough of a problem here to justify it.  We aren't the U.S.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 09:26:11 pm
What problem are you trying to solve?  Is there a problem of people not being able to afford medication?  I just don't see it.  We already have systems in place for th is for people who have lower incomes etc.

We'd have to raise taxes and then pay for the bureaucracies to administer it.  Again, I don't see enough of a problem here to justify it.  We aren't the U.S.

Thankfully we are not the US. We tend to put the care of our people ahead of corporations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 19, 2020, 10:33:42 pm
Thankfully we are not the US. We tend to put the care of our people ahead of corporations.

I agree.  Everyone should be able to access healthcare without getting in financial trouble. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 20, 2020, 12:15:41 am
I agree.  Everyone should be able to access healthcare without getting in financial trouble.
Sounds just like from each according to their ability and to each according to their need. I don't understand what there isn't to get either.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 20, 2020, 03:37:53 am
https://bigthink.com/dangerous-ideas/15-nationalize-drug-development

Quote
"What's often turned out to be the case is that they report only part of their results,” says Baker.  A recent study of drug trials found that industry-funded trials reported positive outcomes 85 percent of the time, while government-funded trails had similar results only 50 percent of the time.

“The alternative I'm suggesting is you have the public pick up the full cost of research,” says Baker. “The federal government already spends about $30 billion a year on biomedical research through the National Institutes of Health,” he says, “so it's not unprecedented that the government spend on biomedical research.”



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 20, 2020, 10:43:40 am
What problem are you trying to solve?  Is there a problem of people not being able to afford medication?  I just don't see it.  We already have systems in place for th is for people who have lower incomes etc.

We'd have to raise taxes and then pay for the bureaucracies to administer it.  Again, I don't see enough of a problem here to justify it.  We aren't the U.S.

I would counter this by pointing out people who work, and have something like HIV - the costs can be catastrophic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 20, 2020, 06:22:56 pm
I would counter this by pointing out people who work, and have something like HIV - the costs can be catastrophic.

I don't understand your point here.

People who are ill and can't work can be covered by their provincial medication insurance plans, with a small deductible usually for people on low or no incomes.  It's designed so people without much money can afford any medications or medical equipment they may need.  They'll get income to live via government social assistance, and of course necessary healthcare access paid for by provincial universal healthcare.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 21, 2020, 11:19:57 am
I don't understand your point here.

There are people who work and can't afford their medication.  Every province should have, at the very least, a comprehensive catastrophic drug program.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 04, 2020, 04:21:09 pm
I wonder what this year's budget will look like once the year is done.  Foretasted government revenues are obviously in the sh!tter due to COVID, and government expenditures are obviously skyrocketing.  It will be interesting to see what this COVID-19 will end up costing our government, and our overall economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 04, 2020, 05:42:38 pm
I wonder what this year's budget will look like once the year is done.  Foretasted government revenues are obviously in the sh!tter due to COVID, and government expenditures are obviously skyrocketing.  It will be interesting to see what this COVID-19 will end up costing our government, and our overall economy.

PBO said 252 billion deficit the other day, don't know what it used for revenue projections.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 04, 2020, 06:00:48 pm
PBO said 252 billion deficit the other day, don't know what it used for revenue projections.

Well that's a lot.  I assume it will be higher.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 09:03:47 pm
Yikes, where will it end.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:07:22 pm
I've always estimated a trillion dollars for this event. I stand by that.  That will presumably cost the federal treasury about $10B per year for the next 30 years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:09:50 pm
Scratch that - it will cost absolutely nothing:

"We anticipate that debt charges will not go up, which is surprising and counterintuitive," Giroux said. "Interest rates are so much lower than what we anticipated them to be just two or three months ago. It doesn't cost that much to finance that growing debt.

"Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768

Don't be a crayon economist.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:11:24 pm
There are people who work and can't afford their medication.  Every province should have, at the very least, a comprehensive catastrophic drug program.

My employee is on a medication for MS. It would cost him over $1600 a month. That's more than half of his after tax salary for the month. Because of Manitoba's prescription drug program, he only has to pay about a month's worth of costs every year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 10:32:56 pm
Scratch that - it will cost absolutely nothing:

"We anticipate that debt charges will not go up, which is surprising and counterintuitive," Giroux said. "Interest rates are so much lower than what we anticipated them to be just two or three months ago. It doesn't cost that much to finance that growing debt.

"Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768

Don't be a crayon economist.

We will be very lucky if the combined federal and provincial debt to GDP is less than 100% by the end of the year.

If I were a foreign investor looking to buy Canadian debt, the first thing I would think of is the future of the currency. If they are only going to pay 1% interest and I flgure the Canadian dollar will devalue by 5%, I will be 4% better off putting my money under my mattress.

What will more likely happen is the BoC will lend the money to the government and then buy back the debt, in other words print money. That is what the US has been doing since 2009. Problem is, we aren't the worlds reserve currency.

Were you even alive in 1993 and if so, why weren't you paying attention.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:50:34 pm
We will be very lucky if the combined federal and provincial debt to GDP is less than 100% by the end of the year.

So, we'll be more like Japan was pre COVID - oh well.

Quote
If I were a foreign investor looking to buy Canadian debt, the first thing I would think of is the future of the currency. If they are only going to pay 1% interest and I flgure the Canadian dollar will devalue by 5%, I will be 4% better off putting my money under my mattress.

We don't really want our debt being substantially foreign held.

Quote
What will more likely happen is the BoC will lend the money to the government and then buy back the debt, in other words print money. That is what the US has been doing since 2009. Problem is, we aren't the worlds reserve currency.

You keep looking for problems that don't exist. If Canada were taking on a trillion dollar liability, and no one else was, it would be a different matter.  Our package so far is small in comparison to a lot of other advanced countries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 10:56:02 pm
So, we'll be more like Japan was pre COVID - oh well.

We don't really want our debt being substantially foreign held.

You keep looking for problems that don't exist. If Canada were taking on a trillion dollar liability, and no one else was, it would be a different matter.  Our package so far is small in comparison to a lot of other advanced countries.

Hell John, why weren't we doing this earlier, we could all be stinking rich and not have to work.

We are not Japan, we could just as easily end up like Greece.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 11:30:55 pm
We are not Japan, we could just as easily end up like Greece.

We're far more like Japan than Greece. Greece is in a monetary union, and doesn't have a central bank.

No one is proposing anything that the rest of the world isn't having to do right now. I'm actually not sure what you expect should be done at the moment.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 11:35:11 pm
We're far more like Japan than Greece. Greece is in a monetary union, and doesn't have a central bank.

No one is proposing anything that the rest of the world isn't having to do right now. I'm actually not sure what you expect should be done at the moment.

Yes, Greece had Germany to bail it out, with conditions.
We can't keep shovelling money out the door, every day it is another multi billion dollar announcement. There will be a reckoning.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 11:38:50 pm
Yes, Greece had Germany to bail it out, with conditions.
We can't keep shovelling money out the door, every day it is another multi billion dollar announcement. There will be a reckoning.

Yes, and Canada has the Bank of Canada.  This is not the 90s. This is a $2-2.5T economy with a pre COVID federal fiscal position that was the envy of much of the developed word.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 11:50:55 pm
Yes, and Canada has the Bank of Canada.  This is not the 90s. This is a $2-2.5T economy with a pre COVID federal fiscal position that was the envy of much of the developed word.



It isn't a $2-2.5T economy anymore, GDP dropped 9% in March alone.

Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 12:31:19 am


It isn't a $2-2.5T economy anymore, GDP dropped 9% in March alone.

Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.

Canada’s recovery package is so far relatively small compared to other countries. Shovelling money out the door is a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 13, 2020, 12:35:14 am


It isn't a $2-2.5T economy anymore, GDP dropped 9% in March alone.

Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.

What makes you think Canada is worse off than any other country eating with this?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 12:39:07 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52450958

Canada doesn’t even crack the top 20 at 8.4% of GDP (it’s slightly more now, but for basically everyone).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 08:43:26 am
Canada’s recovery package is so far relatively small compared to other countries. Shovelling money out the door is a matter of perspective.
Not when it is to people who don’t need it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 12:24:50 pm
Not when it is to people who don’t need it.

Who made you the arbiter or that?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 01:35:14 pm
Who made you the arbiter or that?

I don't want to be arbiter, nor do we want cheques from government because we get OAS. We don't need them and if we get cheques we will donate the money to a local food bank and get a tax receipt, because the government obviously doesn't need the money.

Trudeau says they won't worry about fraud and recover unwarranted payments later.  Even if they do, they will be lucky to get 50 cents on the dollar and how many millions will be spent trying to recover it. They will just write it off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 01:50:23 pm
I don't want to be arbiter, nor do we want cheques from government because we get OAS. We don't need them and if we get cheques we will donate the money to a local food bank and get a tax receipt, because the government obviously doesn't need the money.

Okay, but a lot of people who get OAS and especially GIS aren't you.

Quote
Trudeau says they won't worry about fraud and recover unwarranted payments later.  Even if they do, they will be lucky to get 50 cents on the dollar and how many millions will be spent trying to recover it. They will just write it off.

If they had used a system with fraud prevention, most people wouldn't have money even yet.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 13, 2020, 01:55:22 pm

If they had used a system with fraud prevention, most people wouldn't have money even yet.

Exactly this.  The pandemic is an emergency.  Unfortunately, there isn’t the time to do it exactly correctly or to determine means, or fraud, or whatever else prior to cheques going out.

Which is exactly the reason why we need a Basic Monthly Income for all citizens of the country.  Everyone would get it, and those that don’t need it would be paying it back through income taxes.  There wound’t be all this craziness about who gets what cheque and so many different programs geared towards different people. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 02:04:35 pm
Okay, but a lot of people who get OAS and especially GIS aren't you.



I agree, payments should be based on taxable income. If they are still working, they should be able to collect CERB if their income has been interrupted.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 06:31:30 pm
I agree, payments should be based on taxable income. If they are still working, they should be able to collect CERB if their income has been interrupted.

This is about food inflation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2020, 08:05:43 pm
Scratch that - it will cost absolutely nothing:

"We anticipate that debt charges will not go up, which is surprising and counterintuitive," Giroux said. "Interest rates are so much lower than what we anticipated them to be just two or three months ago. It doesn't cost that much to finance that growing debt.

"Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768

Of course it will cost money, a ton of money.  Interest rates are extremely low now.  But likely after 2-3 years rates will start rising.  We're not going to be paying this 1 trillion back any time soon, if ever.  You don't borrow a trillion dollars and not pay it back for decades if at all without paying a crapload of interest, and then interest on the interest which compounds.

Also, see my signature.  I'm usually right about this stuff.  From your link immediately following your quote that you conveniently left out:

"He [Giroux] said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning"."

See.

If the deficit is 1 trillion we'll be more than doubling our federal debt.  We're screwed.  Every day we're in lockdown we're loading more debt onto the heap.  Not much we can do though.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2020, 08:30:14 pm
Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.

I can't fault the government for spending all this money, people need it, and so does our economy.  A lot of money is being saved rather than spent though, which is worrisome for the economy at the moment but in the longrun will be ok, it will eventually spent.

We have to be careful to watch what's being spent though, obviously.  I have a friend who got laid off and went on the CERB benefit.  Financially this was doable for them.  But then their employer got the wage subsidy thing and my friend was re-hired but is still sitting at home doing nothing and getting paid 75% of their regular wages for doing nothing, paid for by the government.  Maybe some people need that extra money though, for mortgages and whatnot, I dunno.  This friend doesn't have kids either.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2020, 08:32:21 pm
If they had used a system with fraud prevention, most people wouldn't have money even yet.

True.  People started to get their money in a couple of days.  They didn't check anything.  It's an emergency, i'm fine with it as long as any money for people who don't qualify eventually pay it back with interest.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 08:38:33 pm
Of course it will cost money, a ton of money.  Interest rates are extremely low now.  But likely after 2-3 years.....

...it won't matter, because the one time spending will have been locked in for decades.  If we kept having $100B deficits, yeah, we'd have a problem. These 1-2 large deficits isn't an issue with current interest rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2020, 08:40:30 pm
...it won't matter, because the one time spending will have been locked in for decades.  If we kept having $100B deficits, yeah, we'd have a problem. These 1-2 large deficits isn't an issue with current interest rates.

Link?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 13, 2020, 08:47:54 pm
Link?

What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 13, 2020, 08:51:13 pm
What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.

As the saying goes, "we're all in this together" I'll pay a bit more for gas and such if it gets us through this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 13, 2020, 08:59:27 pm
What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.

We might have to something like that.  Raising taxes somehow.  It would be the responsible thing to do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 10:00:18 pm
What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.


GST isn't an entity of its own, for government to collect it, people need to have money to buy stuff.
If GDP is contracting, what are you going to tax?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 10:05:18 pm
Link?

I provided you with the information already.   Canada will have to roll over a large part of it's debt this year. Borrowing costs for most of Canada's debt will continue to fall for the foreseeable future.

You guys act like we're at the end of the line or something.  We're one of the few AAA rated countries, and we're expected to keep that rating through this.  The federal finances will survive, even if things become a bit tighter at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 10:08:12 pm
I provided you with the information already.   Canada will have to roll over a large part of it's debt this year. Borrowing costs for most of Canada's debt will continue to fall for the foreseeable future.
The operative words are "roll over". If all you do is continually acquire debt and roll it over, eventually it will come back to bite you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 14, 2020, 09:01:04 pm
The operative words are "roll over". If all you do is continually acquire debt and roll it over, eventually it will come back to bite you.

If you're a person, sure. If you're a country - maybe, maybe not.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 14, 2020, 09:15:59 pm
If you're a person, sure. If you're a country - maybe, maybe not.

Like I said, where were you in 93?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 14, 2020, 09:22:15 pm

GST isn't an entity of its own, for government to collect it, people need to have money to buy stuff.
If GDP is contracting, what are you going to tax?

Well obviously you're not going to raise taxes now.  But maybe when the recession ends they may have to.  But voters dislike taxes more than they dislike debt because, well, they like having their cake and eating it too.  People are generally irresponsible shmucks.  So the government will have pressure not to raise taxes.  Meanwhile they get to play the hero by spending other people's money, which will benefit them in the inevitable election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 14, 2020, 09:43:00 pm
I provided you with the information already.

Where's the link?  Where's the evidence?

Quote
Canada will have to roll over a large part of it's debt this year. Borrowing costs for most of Canada's debt will continue to fall for the foreseeable future.

That's always the case during a global recession.  The interest rates will rise inevitably, and if they go up too much we're going to get smacked, just like Giroux said.  You're talking about the next couple of years.  I'm talking about decades because that's how long we'll have this debt in the very best case scenario.

Quote
You guys act like we're at the end of the line or something.  We're one of the few AAA rated countries, and we're expected to keep that rating through this.  The federal finances will survive, even if things become a bit tighter at some point in the future.

And you act like nothing is wrong at all, everything is fine.  You do realize this country is on a trend of borrowing every recession and not paying it back right?  It's not sustainable in the longterm.  Something needs to change.  Sure the country will survive, but the gravy train is going to end at some point.  We're burning a candle at both ends.  Everything I've said the last few years about our budget has come to pass.

And our energy sector is being smashed to bits, which is what got us through the last recession.  Investors are fleeing this country at unprecedented rates.  Our economic growth in the short and medium term even after this recession is over is looking like the sh!ts, which is why they're leaving.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 14, 2020, 09:46:50 pm
With this COVID money being spent, where's all the people now who said Harper was financially irresponsible because he drove up Canada's debt so much?  If that's true, then Trudeau is even more irresponsible, right?  Hypocrites.

Of course, I don't think either is true.  You spend during a recession to stimulate the economy, and you pay it back when the economy recovers so you can be ready for the next recession.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 08:32:27 am
Like I said, where were you in 93?

We weren't actually anywhere near bankruptcy in 2003.  We were also running massive deficits in a vacuum.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 08:33:58 am
Where's the link?  Where's the evidence?

Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 08:48:56 am
We weren't actually anywhere near bankruptcy in 2003.  We were also running massive deficits in a vacuum.

Investors didn’t want our bonds which forced Chrétien and Martin to drastically cut federal spending, which in turn put pressure on provincial budgets forcing their debt to increase. The BoC has already started quantitive easing which is basically printing money and Canada will probably lose its AAA credit rating. That means it will pay higher interest rates. You seem to think there is some kind of free ride here.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 09:05:26 am
Investors didn’t want our bonds which forced Chrétien and Martin to drastically cut federal spending, which in turn put pressure on provincial budgets forcing their debt to increase. The BoC has already started quantitive easing which is basically printing money and Canada will probably lose its AAA credit rating.

Where's your info for that? Kevin Page has already come out and said that's unlikely.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 09:31:46 am
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.
Low interest rates won't last forever.  It's not a good idea to run policy with the expectations that they will.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 09:35:41 am
Where's your info for that? Kevin Page has already come out and said that's unlikely.
Our debt to GDP ratio was in the danger zone.  Chretien and Martin were responsible leaders, unlike our current government.  They cut spending by 20-30% across the board.  It led to unprecedented surpluses and economic growth and debt reduction.  We were the envy of the G7.  That's all for nothing now, as our GDP to debt ratios have significantly increased, and all the debt we reduced from the late 90s to 2008 has been added back on, and then some.  Because we have a PM that wants to play Santa Claus.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 09:53:24 am
Our debt to GDP ratio was in the danger zone.  Chretien and Martin were responsible leaders, unlike our current government.  They cut spending by 20-30% across the board.  It led to unprecedented surpluses and economic growth and debt reduction.  We were the envy of the G7.  That's all for nothing now, as our GDP to debt ratios have significantly increased, and all the debt we reduced from the late 90s to 2008 has been added back on, and then some.  Because we have a PM that wants to play Santa Claus.

Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper. It has reduced since JT took office. Of course you may have heard there is a pandemic occuring which will certainly have an effect. I suppose you'll try and blame Covid on Trudeau somehow.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 10:47:37 am
Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper. It has reduced since JT took office. Of course you may have heard there is a pandemic occuring which will certainly have an effect. I suppose you'll try and blame Covid on Trudeau somehow.
Complete and utter nonsense.  Again, you don't know what you're talking about.  It wasn't reduced at all since JT took office, he's ran massive deficits every year!  Many of Harper's years were balanced budgets or surpluses.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.  Sheesh.  You lie like Trump.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 10:53:11 am
Our debt to GDP ratio was in the danger zone.

Not even close. Japan's debt to GDP ratio has now passed 250%.  we are the 10th largest economy in the world with far more economic power than in 1993.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 10:54:25 am
Low interest rates won't last forever.  It's not a good idea to run policy with the expectations that they will.

No one is proposing doing that. Conservatives have a new game where they act like the pandemic isn't a thing.  They were also the ones saying that the aid packaged was too small and too slow in March.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 10:59:48 am
Where's your info for that? Kevin Page has already come out and said that's unlikely.

BNN has had a couple articles on it.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/soaring-canadian-deficit-may-jeopardize-aaa-rating-macquarie-1.1436065

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 11:07:24 am
BNN has had a couple articles on it.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/soaring-canadian-deficit-may-jeopardize-aaa-rating-macquarie-1.1436065
Exactly.  I believe it was close to 70% when Chretien and Martin took an axe to it. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 11:26:52 am
Complete and utter nonsense.  Again, you don't know what you're talking about.  It wasn't reduced at all since JT took office, he's ran massive deficits every year!  Many of Harper's years were balanced budgets or surpluses.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.  Sheesh.  You lie like Trump.

i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harper’s fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 11:55:34 am
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.

Link?  Evidence?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 11:59:49 am
i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harper’s fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/

Five year old article.

Harper started with balanced budgets, that's why he felt he could reduce the GST. Then there was the 2009 financial crisis as well as a war in Afghanistan and everything went sideways, resulting in deficit years gradually returning to a balanced budget in 2015.

By the end of this year, Trudeau will have increased it by 400 billion, maybe more. He had planned on increasing it 200 billion by 2025 anyway, but that was before Covid-19
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 12:00:55 pm
Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper. It has reduced since JT took office. Of course you may have heard there is a pandemic occuring which will certainly have an effect. I suppose you'll try and blame Covid on Trudeau somehow.

That's not true.  It was highest under Chretien in the mid/late-90's until they really started running surpluses, because Mulroney went bonkers with spending and there was a recession in the early 90's.

https://www.ifsd.ca/web/default/files/Presentations/Reports/PDC3.png
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 12:03:03 pm
That's not true.  It was highest under Chretien in the mid/late-90's until they really started running surpluses, because Mulroney went bonkers with spending and there was a recession in the early 90's.

https://www.ifsd.ca/web/default/files/Presentations/Reports/PDC3.png

There were also 20% interest rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 12:07:17 pm
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.

Who is going to buy that trillion dollars worth of Canadian bonds at 1.06%?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 12:07:38 pm
i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harper’s fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/

Harper governed during the Great Recession.  Thus he ran big deficits during that time.  Trudeau is governing during this COVID economic meltdown and is going to be running even higher deficits, because he has to or we're even more screwed.

The problem isn't the deficits, it's not paying them down afterwards, because Canadians and politicians are cheap and greedy and irresponsible.  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  It's fun to spend money, it's not fun to pay it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 12:38:59 pm
BNN has had a couple articles on it.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/soaring-canadian-deficit-may-jeopardize-aaa-rating-macquarie-1.1436065

If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 12:46:08 pm
i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harper’s fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/
Your point was that under Harper, debt to GDP ratio was the highest it's ever been.  That's completely false.  Regardless, almost all of the debt under Harper was due to the 2008 global financial crisis.  But if you think Harper's record is bad, you should see Trudeau's!  Yikes!  It's 10 times as bad.  Over $400 billion in debt just this year!  LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 12:47:41 pm
Harper added $150 billion dollars in debt over 9 years.  Trudeau's added almost $600 billion dollars in just 5!  Holy ****!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 12:55:01 pm
If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash.
Um, but it ends up costing us more to finance debt.  But that's ok because it's costing everybody else more too?  What kind of logic is that?  When is tying up a larger % of the budget in just paying interest on debt a good thing?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 12:56:10 pm
If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash.

It means more competition for money and probably higher rates. You still think there is a free ride.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 01:01:50 pm
Your point was that under Harper, debt to GDP ratio was the highest it's ever been.  That's completely false.  Regardless, almost all of the debt under Harper was due to the 2008 global financial crisis.  But if you think Harper's record is bad, you should see Trudeau's!  Yikes!  It's 10 times as bad.  Over $400 billion in debt just this year!  LOL!

Nope, never said it was the highest it ever was under Harper. He did manage to get it up to the highest it was since the 70's @38.3% while JT has only got it up the 33.8% at last count. And once again, we have to consider the current government is having to deal with a pandemic which will cost money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 01:47:04 pm
Nope, never said it was the highest it ever was under Harper. He did manage to get it up to the highest it was since the 70's @38.3% while JT has only got it up the 33.8% at last count. And once again, we have to consider the current government is having to deal with a pandemic which will cost money.

Wrong, it was well over 60% during the nineties and will likely be around 55% by the end of this year. Debt to GDP is a ratio, GDP is now sinking, Debt to GDP would be going up even if the budget was balanced.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 01:57:01 pm
Wrong, it was well over 60% during the nineties and will likely be around 55% by the end of this year. Debt to GDP is a ratio, GDP is now sinking, Debt to GDP would be going up even if the budget was balanced.

https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/government-debt-to-gdp
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 02:11:24 pm
https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/government-debt-to-gdp

That is total government debt, not federal government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 02:38:37 pm
It means more competition for money and probably higher rates. You still think there is a free ride.

No one said there's a free ride, but the sky isn't falling.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on May 15, 2020, 03:44:21 pm
No one said there's a free ride, but the sky isn't falling.
No, but you're squeezing out spending on other programs when you expand the amount of money needed to just service debt.  Anyways, I agree with you about the sky not falling.  I wish that same logic was applied to the coronavirus as well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 03:48:23 pm
No, but you're squeezing out spending on other programs when you expand the amount of money needed to just service debt.  Anyways, I agree with you about the sky not falling.  I wish that same logic was applied to the coronavirus as well.

The rate of corona cases is leveling because people are applying similar logic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 04:04:22 pm
Harper added $150 billion dollars in debt over 9 years.

This number is true.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 04:06:32 pm
If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash.

That's the one good thing from this, everyone is taking the hit too, which helps our situation a bit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 04:09:07 pm
Nope, never said it was the highest it ever was under Harper.

You're a liar like your boy Trump.

Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 04:15:27 pm
You're a liar like your boy Trump.

I said "highest since the 70's" please read before you comment.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 04:17:08 pm
No one said there's a free ride, but the sky isn't falling.

Even if we pay no interest on this debt we're taking out it's going to take a very, very long time to pay it back, if ever.

Our ability to pay it back is also being hampered by our energy sector being decimated before our eyes.  The TSX has taken a mega crap-kicking, much more than the US markets have.  The country isn't collapsing but we're going into the red big-time.  It's not a good situation.  We may be doubling our debt while having our economy weakened in the short and medium term.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 04:18:27 pm
I said "highest since the 70's" please read before you comment.

Doubling-down on lies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 04:23:54 pm
Doubling-down on lies.

Sorry if you can't read well. Somewhere in what I posted there is a graph which shows you how much debt Harper created during his term. Have a look.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 04:32:06 pm
No, but you're squeezing out spending on other programs when you expand the amount of money needed to just service debt.

Debt servicing is predicted to be stable to falling, even with this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 06:24:05 pm
Debt servicing is predicted to be stable to falling, even with this.

For how long?  Links with evidence.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 06:57:28 pm
For how long?  Links with evidence.

For 30 years. Even if we take on significantly ore debt,  our old higher rate debt is about to be rolled over at a lower rate. I already should you the bond yield.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 07:08:25 pm
For 30 years. Even if we take on significantly ore debt,  our old higher rate debt is about to be rolled over at a lower rate. I already should you the bond yield.

You've provided no links about these claims after I continually insist.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 08:00:33 pm
For 30 years. Even if we take on significantly ore debt,  our old higher rate debt is about to be rolled over at a lower rate. I already should you the bond yield.
You still haven’t explained who will buy this debt. You assume existing bond holders will just roll them over into new ones. What if they just cash out and no one wants to buy the new ones.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 08:07:14 pm
You've provided no links about these claims after I continually insist.

I provided the 30 year bond yield. I provided you with quotes from the PBO saying that our borrowing costs are not likely to increase.  What more do you want to see?

Here's Kevin Page saying we probably won't lose AAA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3diTXBU5W0
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 08:47:25 pm
I provided the 30 year bond yield. I provided you with quotes from the PBO saying that our borrowing costs are not likely to increase.  What more do you want to see?

You said:

Quote
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.

How do you know that "Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over"?  Where's your evidence for this claim?  Or is it a wild guess?

Canada issues bonds at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years etc.

Where's your evidence that all or even most of this new debt we're spending will be locked in at 30 years at 1.06%?  What kind of moron would invest in a 30 year bond that only returned 1% interest...one of the lowest interest rates in history?  I would never, ever buy that bond, would you?  Would the Canadian government invest in a bond from a foreign country at that rate for 30 years?  Only if they were stupid, since it returns next to nothing and interest rates will start rising in a year or 2 or 3.

Quote
I provided you with quotes from the PBO saying that our borrowing costs are not likely to increase.

The PBO also said this in the article:  "Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."  He said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning."

Interest rates go up and down all the time.  Right now they're low, so we're ok.  But how long are they borrowing at these low rates?  And what will happen in 5 years or 10 years or 20 years when they renew borrowing for the debt at higher rates when they inevitably haven't paid off all the money they're borrowing now along with the previous debt?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 15, 2020, 08:59:14 pm
We've been sold total BS, as I've been saying for years.  Liberals have been budgeting the last 5 years based on total BS projections that only a fool would think would happen, assuming recessions and big downturns never occur every 7-10 years or so:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-public-pensions-new-spending-put-pressure-on-federal-budgets-bottom/

"Monday’s fiscal update says the federal deficit is projected to be $28.1-billion in 2020-21, $22.1-billion in 2021-22, $18.4-billion in 2022-23 and $16.3-billion in 2023-24. Those figures include an annual $3-billion “adjustment for risk” to cover unforeseen events or economic changes.

Those annual deficit forecasts compare with the Liberal platform projections of $27.4-billion in 2020-21, $23.7-billion in 2021-22, $21.8-billion in 2022-23 and $21-billion in 2023-24.

Mr. Morneau pointed reporters to government plans to find $1.5-billion a year in internal savings, and said he will deliver on the party’s campaign promises while keeping the federal debt-to-GDP ratio under control."


 :D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 11:32:14 pm
You said:

How do you know that "Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over"?  Where's your evidence for this claim?  Or is it a wild guess?

Canada issues bonds at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years etc.

Where's your evidence that all or even most of this new debt we're spending will be locked in at 30 years at 1.06%?  What kind of moron would invest in a 30 year bond that only returned 1% interest...one of the lowest interest rates in history?  I would never, ever buy that bond, would you?  Would the Canadian government invest in a bond from a foreign country at that rate for 30 years?  Only if they were stupid, since it returns next to nothing and interest rates will start rising in a year or 2 or 3.

The PBO also said this in the article:  "Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."  He said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning."

Interest rates go up and down all the time.  Right now they're low, so we're ok.  But how long are they borrowing at these low rates?  And what will happen in 5 years or 10 years or 20 years when they renew borrowing for the debt at higher rates when they inevitably haven't paid off all the money they're borrowing now along with the previous debt?

When was the last time we had high interest rates? Our debt servicing costs have been going nowhere but down for decades. Where is your evidence that things are about to get so difficult?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 09:19:24 am
Gee John, if we could borrow hundreds of billions and run our debt to GDP up over 200%
like Japan with little or no consequences, why weren’t we doing it before? We could have had a brand new military, lots of new infrastructure, social programs and be giving people money to do nothing at little or no cost. Why were we so dumb not to see that?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 10:15:16 am
Gee John, if we could borrow hundreds of billions and run our debt to GDP up over 200%
like Japan with little or no consequences, why weren’t we doing it before? We could have had a brand new military, lots of new infrastructure, social programs and be giving people money to do nothing at little or no cost. Why were we so dumb not to see that?

You keep creating straw men. It isn't prudent to constantly increase debt to GDP. The point is that the sky is far far far far far far far from falling. After this is over, we simply need to return to a slowly falling debt to GDP ratio and we'll be fine.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 11:11:40 am
You keep creating straw men. It isn't prudent to constantly increase debt to GDP. The point is that the sky is far far far far far far far from falling. After this is over, we simply need to return to a slowly falling debt to GDP ratio and we'll be fine.

Sure we will. We can just print money and live happily ever after.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 12:10:46 pm
You still haven't said who is going to lend us all this money at near zero interest rates. If you are hoping to grow an RRSP you had better hope the stock market performs really well because bonds and GIC's will end up costing you money. Same goes for the CPP and company pension plans which invest in the same kind of assets. Retirees will watch their savings disappear at an accelerating rate because they are no longer generating income as their pile grows smaller. In order to reduce debt to GDP you either have to reduce debt or increase GDP. Our GDP is shrinking and in recent years, real estate and energy have been the biggest contributors to growth. Both are in the tank and if the Alberta haters get their way energy will never come back, so they better come up with other ways to grow the economy that don't involve increasing debt.

And then there is the possibility of runaway inflation as governments pour trillions of new money into economies.

But don't worry be happy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 16, 2020, 12:13:26 pm
When was the last time we had high interest rates? Our debt servicing costs have been going nowhere but down for decades. Where is your evidence that things are about to get so difficult?

Right before the 2008 recession they were high.

I'm not saying things are about to get difficult, i'm not saying the sky is falling by any means, i'm saying we need to be careful and concerned, because taking on a lot more debt creates risks.

We have absolutely no idea what interest rates will do over the coming decades.  Interest rates vary but overall have been trending downwards over the last 40 years.  (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-rate)  This has helped lead to more and more borrowing and debt for governments and individuals.  It's creating bubbles, and eventually it will pop.  It popped in 2008 with US mortgages.  The bubbles being created since then are much larger.

If you want to see what unexpected rising interest rates can do to the finances of countries, go look at African countries in the 1980's, it crippled them, after they borrowed a ton of money cheaply in the 1970's when rates were low and then rates spiked in the 80's.  I'm not saying that will happen on that scale, it's unlikely, but on a smaller scale it could, as the PBO warned: "Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."  He said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning."

Any time any government goes deeply in the red it's concerning, and we've never seen anything like this, not since WWII:  https://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2020_05/image.png.baa5c2c7f4ebc47b303dfdc2375f5e76.png

You also continue to fail to answer where you're getting this info for many of your assumptions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 12:24:05 pm
A big reason interest rates are so low is because debt levels are so high, economies would collapse if rates increased to as little as 5%. How can anyone think that is healthy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 12:54:03 pm
Right before the 2008 recession they were high.


High? No, they were more normal.

In Canada, higher interest rates would raise borrowing costs in the medium term, but it would also make defined benefit pensions at the federal level far more affordable.  It would be mostly a wash.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 12:57:20 pm
https://twitter.com/trevortombe/status/1255926184220651520?s=20

This is far from the end of the world.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 16, 2020, 01:07:01 pm
Right before the 2008 recession they were high.

What???  5% is high?   That’s not even close.  5% is within spitting distance of the lowest ever. 

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-interest-rate.png?s=cclr&v=202004151428V20191105&ismobile=1&w=400&h=250&lbl=0&d1=19200610)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on May 16, 2020, 01:55:49 pm
After this is over, we simply need to return to a slowly falling debt to GDP ratio and we'll be fine.

And what does that look like, exactly?  All the economists are saying the economy is going to be the worst it has been since the Great Depression and growth is going to be slow for a long time to come. The "V shaped recovery" isn't going to happen. It'll take us years to get back to where we were just a year ago.

So how do we get to a decreasing debt-to-GDP ratio in the foreseeable future?  Tax hikes? Spending cuts? Both?

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on May 16, 2020, 01:58:40 pm
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.

Who would lock in bonds for 30 years at 1% interest?  Who would buy bonds at 1% interest at all?  That's not even keeping up with inflation.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 02:14:32 pm
What???  5% is high?   That’s not even close.  5% is within spitting distance of the lowest ever. 

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-interest-rate.png?s=cclr&v=202004151428V20191105&ismobile=1&w=400&h=250&lbl=0&d1=19200610)

5% interest rates right now would bankrupt millions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 02:46:07 pm
Who would lock in bonds for 30 years at 1% interest?  Who would buy bonds at 1% interest at all?  That's not even keeping up with inflation.

 -k

You’d have to ask the people buying the bonds.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 02:49:21 pm
You’d have to ask the people buying the bonds.

What people? You just assume there will be people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 16, 2020, 03:40:05 pm
High? No, they were more normal.

A 3 year GIC from a bank in 2007 was around 4.5% if I remember.  I guess "high" and "normal" is what you define it, I guess you could call 4.5% moderate, it certainly wasn't "very high".  We haven't seen anything close to that since then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 04:10:01 pm
What people? You just assume there will be people.

There are people buying right now ffs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 04:13:10 pm
In 2007 a 5 year GIC rate was about 3.5% A ten year govt bond paid over 4%. In 1990 a 5 year GIC paid 11% and a 10 year bond 10.8%.
In 1981, 5 yr GIC's and 10 yr bonds paid over 15% and the average for the next ten years was over 10%.

It wasn't great unless you had a lot of money in the bank but we survived.
Can you imagine what would happen if we hit those rates now. It would be catastrophic.

And people wonder why Mulroney's deficits were so high.



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 16, 2020, 04:15:34 pm
5% interest rates right now would bankrupt millions.

Exactly.

Governments reduce interest rates to increase borrowing so people will spend more money in order to increase GDP growth during struggling economic times.  When rates went to 4-5% in the USA millions of homeowners started foreclosing and the housing market collapsed on itself.

In Canada, interest rates went to historic lows following the 2008 recession and stayed low for years.  So a lot of people bought houses using this cheap credit.  This helped Canada's housing market skyrocket (among other factors), and now people are in deep, deep debt unlike any time in Canadian history.  A lot of people used the cheap credit to buy investment properties in the hot house markets to take advantage of the rising home prices, which further increased housing prices.  Over-speculation causes bubbles. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/speculativebubble.asp

If the feds or banks have to put interest rates to 4 or 5% the whole bubble could collapse & we become the USA in 2008.  The feds are in good shape financially, but Canada as a whole, including individuals and provinces, are knee-deep in debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 04:17:09 pm
There are people buying right now ffs.

In 93 they were deciding they didn't want to, even though 10 year bonds were paying over 7%. That's why Chretien and Martin had to cut so much.
Your crystal ball better be right or we are all f****d.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 16, 2020, 04:33:27 pm
In 2007 a 5 year GIC rate was about 3.5% A ten year govt bond paid over 4%. In 1990 a 5 year GIC paid 11% and a 10 year bond 10.8%.
In 1981, 5 yr GIC's and 10 yr bonds paid over 15% and the average for the next ten years was over 10%.

It wasn't great unless you had a lot of money in the bank but we survived.
Can you imagine what would happen if we hit those rates now. It would be catastrophic.

And people wonder why Mulroney's deficits were so high.

Exactly.  In the 1980's global interest rates went sky-high, and we had a recession at the end of his tenure, which is a reason why our debt went insane.

Then Mulroney brought in the GST to help pay for these debts, which is what Chretien did with the GST, because the 1990's were also an excellent economic period globally and our growth was excellent like in the USA etc.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on May 18, 2020, 10:59:22 am
(https://i.imgur.com/uA8WSQo.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 11:26:53 am
The 37% in BC would be in the same place as the last election, metro Vancouver and the North Shore. The rest of the province would go Tory, NDP and Green.
Also, any poles taken before the Conservatives choose a new leader won't mean much.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 18, 2020, 12:08:05 pm
The 37% in BC would be in the same place as the last election, metro Vancouver and the North Shore.

And? Do those people not count? That's where most of the people live.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 12:17:30 pm
And? Do those people not count? That's where most of the people live.

Of course they count but i can't count the number of comment I have seen  (not here) that say the rest of the province doesn't count because it didn't vote the right way.

They don't actually, that's why the Liberals only got 11 out of 42 seats in the last election.

The Fraser Health Region is 1.6 million people compared to 1.25 for Vancouver Coastal.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 18, 2020, 12:31:51 pm
Of course they count but i can't count the number of comment I have seen  (not here) that say the rest of the province doesn't count because it didn't vote the right way.

They don't actually, that's why the Liberals only got 11 out of 42 seats in the last election.

The Fraser Health Region is 1.6 million people compared to 1.25 for Vancouver Coastal.

Did the Liberal party get 37% of the vote last time?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 12:40:29 pm
Did the Liberal party get 37% of the vote last time?

No but it was very concentrated in one area. I don't see that changing much. Where the votes are is more important than how many. If it were only total votes, Scheer would be PM.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 18, 2020, 03:53:40 pm
Liberals give Canadians a gazillion million billion free dollars, more money than any Canadian government has ever given people ever in the history of country by leaps and bounds, and their support goes up while the CPC has a lame duck and nobody gives an eff about the NDP.  Ok.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 18, 2020, 04:23:23 pm
Liberals give Canadians a gazillion million billion free dollars, more money than any Canadian government has ever given people ever in the history of country by leaps and bounds, and their support goes up while the CPC has a lame duck and nobody gives an eff about the NDP.  Ok.

So you think no money should have been provided because of the pandemic?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 18, 2020, 05:22:24 pm
No

Then it isn't the same situation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 18, 2020, 05:48:37 pm
So you think no money should have been provided because of the pandemic?

No.  I'm saying people like "free" money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 18, 2020, 05:50:59 pm
The 37% in BC would be in the same place as the last election, metro Vancouver and the North Shore. The rest of the province would go Tory, NDP and Green.

Where do you get this info from?

Being up 10% in BC from the 2019 election is huge... 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 18, 2020, 05:53:15 pm
No.  I'm saying people like "free" money.



So you're saying they're doing the right thing and people appreciate that sort of governance.... 
 
How enjoyable do you think it is for people getting all this "free money" if you used to make $5000 per month but now get $2000 per month because of the gov't program?  You think people are ecstatic about needing this?   ::)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 07:38:41 pm
Where do you get this info from?

Being up 10% in BC from the 2019 election is huge...

So do you think JT will call an election? Wait till the Conservatives get a new leader and the bills start coming in.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 18, 2020, 07:48:56 pm
So do you think JT will call an election? Wait till the Conservatives get a new leader and the bills start coming in.

The question is whether an election is called before the CPC chooses a new leader.  Liberals obviously want a majority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 18, 2020, 08:02:31 pm
So do you think JT will call an election? Wait till the Conservatives get a new leader and the bills start coming in.

Not likely to...  He doesn’t need to, given who the next Conservative leader is going to be.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 08:49:29 pm
Not likely to...  He doesn’t need to, given who the next Conservative leader is going to be.

Who is it going to be?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on May 18, 2020, 08:50:06 pm
Who is it going to be?

One of 4 unelectable idiots.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 09:18:13 pm
One of 4 unelectable idiots.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 28, 2020, 07:17:02 pm
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months while the Liberals spend gazillions of dollars that won't be properly scrutinized in Parliament.

Meanwhile, though the Liberals are giving out money to everyone, they won't properly fund the AG so that they can do appropriate audits.  https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/house-committee-unanimous-in-petitioning-morneau-to-cover-auditor-generals-funding-shortfall

So Liberals want to suppress oversight of their massive spending.  Good job.  Enjoy your summer vacation, paid for by the billions you don't want any oversight on.  Oh yeah and the government wage subsidy the parties are taking too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on May 28, 2020, 10:57:23 pm
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months while the Liberals spend gazillions of dollars that won't be properly scrutinized in Parliament.

Meanwhile, though the Liberals are giving out money to everyone, they won't properly fund the AG so that they can do appropriate audits.  https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/house-committee-unanimous-in-petitioning-morneau-to-cover-auditor-generals-funding-shortfall

So Liberals want to suppress oversight of their massive spending.  Good job.  Enjoy your summer vacation, paid for by the billions you don't want any oversight on.  Oh yeah and the government wage subsidy the parties are taking too.

your post is a pile of shyte! Of course, for weeks on end, weakAndy has been pushing for a full return of all MPs... apparently claiming virtual sittings don't allow his trained seals to properly perform! It was most inconvenient for media wags to point out to Scheer that he only attended 2 of 6 virtual sittings! What a conArteeest that weakAndy is, hey!

in any case, the fully functioning Parliament voted... you do realize the current minority government couldn't act without gaining enough support, right? ConspiracyG, you do know how minority governments work, right?

but yes, kinda per norm, there will be a summer recess - but not before:
Quote
Some MPs will still sit in Ottawa, four days a week well into June as part of a special COVID-19 committee that will include multiple hours of questions on the pandemic from opposition leaders directed at the government. In addition to those in the chamber, MPs from across the country will be able to take part via video conference, with large screens set up inside the House of Commons.

the waldo will allow you a do-over... suggesting you check the date on your linked article!  ;D By the by, the AG's office is proceeding with 3 key audits... I do believe your special whine is covered here, yes? 
- an examination of the federal government’s $187 billion infrastructure plan,
- an audit of COVID-19-related special warrants issued under the Financial Administration Act and
- an audit of Ottawa’s pandemic emergency response

try again, try harder!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 29, 2020, 10:48:44 am
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months while the Liberals spend gazillions of dollars that won't be properly scrutinized in Parliament.

Meanwhile, though the Liberals are giving out money to everyone, they won't properly fund the AG so that they can do appropriate audits.  https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/house-committee-unanimous-in-petitioning-morneau-to-cover-auditor-generals-funding-shortfall

So Liberals want to suppress oversight of their massive spending.  Good job.  Enjoy your summer vacation, paid for by the billions you don't want any oversight on.  Oh yeah and the government wage subsidy the parties are taking too.

Do you actually believe this garbage? The house will continue to sit in the form of the COVID committee. Ontario still has a massive problem with COVID-19, and Ottawa shouldn't be adding to that by bringing thousands of people back to the Hill.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on June 10, 2020, 08:18:59 am
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months ...

Conservative MP's can sit around and drink beer all summer too.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 11, 2020, 10:34:50 am
ya ya, weakAndy/CPC have been pining for more face-time in Parliament... virtual sittings are an impediment to the posturing of CPC barking seals. And the summer recess was clearly the last straw!  ;D

for weeks on end Scheer was nattering on about Canadian fraudsters taking advantage of COVID-19 related assistance. Of course the news that ~190,000 persons, on their own initiatives, moved to pay back monies they weren't rightly entitled to - well that just messed with the Scheer narrative! And yes, it was MORE important to get the money out quickly versus alternate delays that rigourous oversight would have resulted in.

so now the government proposed a new two-fold COVID-19 aid bill intended to offer assistance to disabled persons... along with measures to impose penalties for fraudulently claiming the Canada Emergency Response Benefit... not just "simple mistakes" made; rather, overt fraud actions taken. But the CPC refused to support the new bill - even refusing to support a split bill that would allow a separate vote just on the disability aid... even refusing to discuss/debate the proposals. And why? Because, they have now openly stated they will not debate, they will not vote... on anything - until full Parliament is resumed!

here's Deputy CPC House leader John Nater - MP Perth-Wellington saying exactly that (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1271089553978404866/pu/vid/1280x720/bFd_ESFshpzxHA_6.mp4):
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on June 12, 2020, 03:31:52 pm
So now Scheer is personally responsible for withholding money for disabled people, even when that  bill is separated. Edit: My error I think. It isn't separate.


Seems a dumb ego trip devoid of caring on both leaders.

 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2020, 06:36:44 pm
You’d have to ask the people buying the bonds.
What people? You just assume there will be people.
There are people buying right now ffs.

(https://i.imgur.com/Chj5lyY.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 17, 2020, 05:45:07 pm
Canada loses UN Security Council bid.  2.3 milllion dollars completely wasted on selling bribes to 3rd world dictators so they'd vote for us.

2.3 million dollars can pay for a year's rent for 190 homeless people, or a lifetime's supply of food for a bunch of them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 17, 2020, 05:49:34 pm
LOLZ

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/security-council-rejection-a-deep-embarrassment-for-harper/article1370239/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 17, 2020, 07:40:15 pm
Canada loses UN Security Council bid.  2.3 milllion dollars completely wasted on selling bribes to 3rd world dictators so they'd vote for us.

2.3 million dollars can pay for a year's rent for 190 homeless people, or a lifetime's supply of food for a bunch of them.

$2.3M is also about 1 millionth of the Canadian economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on June 17, 2020, 08:22:16 pm
LOLZ

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/security-council-rejection-a-deep-embarrassment-for-harper/article1370239/

I imagine that some people who were posting about failing to win the security council seat 10 years ago was "an international indictment of Stephen Harper" or crap like that are busy deleting old tweets today.

I don't think a seat on the security council actually matters, though. 

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2020, 02:50:54 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/18/canada-loses-bid-un-security-council-seat-justin-trudeau

Wonder if things will change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on June 22, 2020, 03:30:14 pm
ya ya, weakAndy/CPC have been pining for more face-time in Parliament... virtual sittings are an impediment to the posturing of CPC barking seals. And the summer recess was clearly the last straw!  ;D

for weeks on end Scheer was nattering on about Canadian fraudsters taking advantage of COVID-19 related assistance. Of course the news that ~190,000 persons, on their own initiatives, moved to pay back monies they weren't rightly entitled to - well that just messed with the Scheer narrative! And yes, it was MORE important to get the money out quickly versus alternate delays that rigourous oversight would have resulted in.

so now the government proposed a new two-fold COVID-19 aid bill intended to offer assistance to disabled persons... along with measures to impose penalties for fraudulently claiming the Canada Emergency Response Benefit... not just "simple mistakes" made; rather, overt fraud actions taken. But the CPC refused to support the new bill - even refusing to support a split bill that would allow a separate vote just on the disability aid... even refusing to discuss/debate the proposals. And why? Because, they have now openly stated they will not debate, they will not vote... on anything - until full Parliament is resumed!

here's Deputy CPC House leader John Nater - MP Perth-Wellington saying exactly that (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1271089553978404866/pu/vid/1280x720/bFd_ESFshpzxHA_6.mp4):

Well, if the Conservative MP's refuse to perform their duties, I guess they'll just be marked Absent. They are already entirely irrelevant, so it won't make much difference.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 24, 2020, 07:50:10 pm
The government lost one AAA rating today due to global government debt (provinces plus feds). The market took no notice. Now that I have an understanding of MMT, I wonder why we even care about the ratings, debt, or deficits. They're all meaningless for a monetary sovereign with a reserve currency like Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2020, 08:24:58 pm
The government lost one AAA rating today due to global government debt (provinces plus feds). The market took no notice. Now that I have an understanding of MMT, I wonder why we even care about the ratings, debt, or deficits. They're all meaningless for a monetary sovereign with a reserve currency like Canada.

What market? The stock market took a big hit today for the same reasons.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 24, 2020, 08:46:29 pm
The government lost one AAA rating today due to global government debt (provinces plus feds). The market took no notice. Now that I have an understanding of MMT, I wonder why we even care about the ratings, debt, or deficits. They're all meaningless for a monetary sovereign with a reserve currency like Canada.

http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/modern-monetary-theory/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2020, 08:50:15 pm
http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/modern-monetary-theory/

So what happens first, we print so much money it becomes worthless or we get crushed under the interest?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:30:37 am
http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/modern-monetary-theory/

Those questions are misrepresentations of MMT.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:31:43 am
So what happens first, we print so much money it becomes worthless or we get crushed under the interest?

The government doesn’t actually have to sell bonds, and can in fact have the Bank of Canada buy it’s own bonds to control yield curves - both Australia and Japan are doing this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:32:18 am
What market? The stock market took a big hit today for the same reasons.

Bond market - Canada’s borrowing costs decreased today.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:37:07 am
Anyway - today’s downgrade wasn’t about federal debt -

https://twitter.com/trevortombe/status/1275925917601153024?s=21

Unlike Canada, the provinces don’t have the option to eliminate their debt with a keystroke.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 25, 2020, 09:49:05 am
Anyway - today’s downgrade wasn’t about federal debt -

https://twitter.com/trevortombe/status/1275925917601153024?s=21

Unlike Canada, the provinces don’t have the option to eliminate their debt with a keystroke.

The massive federal deficit did obviously contribute to the downgrade though.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 25, 2020, 09:52:10 am
Those questions are misrepresentations of MMT.

You just said that debt, deficits, and ratings are meaningless, because Canada can print money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:07:25 am
The massive federal deficit did obviously contribute to the downgrade though.

Only in that it contributed to the global debt number for Canada - on it's own, it's 0 concern.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:07:54 am
You just said that debt, deficits, and ratings are meaningless, because Canada can print money.

Well, then, I misrepresented it. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 11:11:38 am
Bond market - Canada’s borrowing costs decreased today.

Maybe but only fools are buying long term debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:26:01 pm
Maybe but only fools are buying long term debt.

And yet they’re buying it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 12:46:39 pm
And yet they’re buying it.

You know they are buying long term debt for a fact?
 
A one year bond is paying .27%. A 30 year bond is paying 1.02%

If you buy a 30 year bond at 1.02% and in ten years rates are at 3%, you are stuck with your money invested at 1.02% for the next 20 years and a bond you would have to sell at a big discount if you wanted to get rid of it. If you keep buying one year bonds, all you stand to lose is .27%. That 30 year bond is one hell of a gamble.

I have several bonds and GIC's coming due this year and it isn't looking good. I'm not locking money in for a long term at next to no interest. Right now I wouldn't go longer than three years and there would need to be a good reason to go that long. I stand to lose little by going short term and hoping rates improve. I stand to lose a lot by going long term at a very low rate.

You may think these rates are good for government but they are very hard on pension plans, RRSP's, RRIF's, TFSA's and any other personal investments people may have for retirement.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 04:11:47 pm
The government doesn’t actually have to sell bonds, and can in fact have the Bank of Canada buy it’s own bonds to control yield curves - both Australia and Japan are doing this.

That  is just printing money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 06:41:41 pm
That  is just printing money.

Yes, and as long as inflation is under control, there's really no disincentive to do that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 06:42:14 pm
You know they are buying long term debt for a fact?

Do you know how bond markets work?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 06:49:07 pm
Yes, and as long as inflation is under control, there's really no disincentive to do that.

You are poring new money into an economy that doesn't have the GDP to justify it. That is a recipe for inflation at some point.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 06:52:06 pm
Do you know how bond markets work?

Do you? Do you really think there are enough lenders out there to support the trillions of government borrowing that is going on?

The bank buys back government debt, To do so it has to produce the money to buy it. All it is doing is printing money and using government as the middle man to get it into the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 25, 2020, 06:55:42 pm
Yes, and as long as inflation is under control, there's really no disincentive to do that.

Yes, but printing money creates inflation, which is why Canada and the US keep it to a minimum.  There's no free lunch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:01:20 pm
You are poring new money into an economy that doesn't have the GDP to justify it. That is a recipe for inflation at some point.

If need be, you control that by raising taxes, later, to calm inflation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:01:49 pm
Yes, but printing money creates inflation, which is why Canada and the US keep it to a minimum.  There's no free lunch.

The US has been printing money for a decade or so.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:02:15 pm
Do you? Do you really think there are enough lenders out there to support the trillions of government borrowing that is going on?

If not, our own central bank can 'buy' the debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 07:18:10 pm
If not, our own central bank can 'buy' the debt.

It doesn't buy it with air, it has to print the money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:23:06 pm
It doesn't buy it with air, it has to print the money.

But that money is only virtual and doesn't have to enter the economy - especially when we're talking about rolling over old debt. It can all be done with a keyboard entry, avoiding inflationary pressures.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 07:39:44 pm
But that money is only virtual and doesn't have to enter the economy - especially when we're talking about rolling over old debt. It can all be done with a keyboard entry, avoiding inflationary pressures.

If it doesn't enter the economy, why the hell are they borrowing it? Where do you think things like CERB are coming from and don't you think that money is going into the economy? CERB alone is putting over 2 billion a week into the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 08:01:13 pm
If it doesn't enter the economy, why the hell are they borrowing it? Where do you think things like CERB are coming from and don't you think that money is going into the economy? CERB alone is putting over 2 billion a week into the economy.

The money is already in the economy. The 'borrowing' of the money created new money, and that money created economic activity. Paying it off simply involves exchanging interest bearing dollars for standard dollars.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 08:54:59 pm
The money is already in the economy. The 'borrowing' of the money created new money, and that money created economic activity. Paying it off simply involves exchanging interest bearing dollars for standard dollars.


Thats means printing more and more money. Jeez, why haven't we been doing this for decades cause deficits and debt don't matter. Debt to GDP doesn't matter. Nothing matters, just print more money and dump it into the economy. Wow, just Wow!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 09:08:19 pm
We can have all the infrastructure, social programs and as big a military as we want, we will just print it and buy it because it doesn't matter.

No more complaints about buying pipelines please.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 25, 2020, 09:16:39 pm
If need be, you control that by raising taxes, later, to calm inflation.

In theory.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 09:34:26 pm
In theory.

Raising taxes is inflationary because it raises the cost of living.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 25, 2020, 09:36:46 pm
The US has been printing money for a decade or so.

Yes but the US feds haven't done so to pay off all of its 20+ trillion in debt.  Because they want to limit inflation.  Raising taxes by any significant amount to calm inflation would reduce economic activity.  So they print money when required when it makes sense, like right now because they have a ton of debt and are in an emergency situation due to COVID when they have to spend a ton of money.

MMT has its points.  It says countries with their own currency can't default on their debts, which seems true.  They also say countries can print money as long as inflation is controlled, which may be true. I just don't think it's a wise idea to take the theory to the extreme like some people want, or at least be the first country to try it.  Japan could be a guinea pig.

There's no telling how sustainable this strategy is, because introducing a lot of money into the economy and keeping interest rates low etc. can create economic bubbles.  The role of the fed is to inject money into the economy when it's on a downturn and slow down the economy when things are heating up too much too fast to avoid bubbles.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/money/2020/05/12/coronavirushow-u-s-printing-dollars-save-economy-during-crisis-fed/3038117001/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:13:03 pm
We can have all the infrastructure, social programs and as big a military as we want, we will just print it and buy it because it doesn't matter.

No more complaints about buying pipelines please.

*if we limit inflation, and stay within the actual economic potential.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:13:32 pm
Raising taxes is inflationary because it raises the cost of living.

No - not in the least. Taxing removes discretionary spending from the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:15:00 pm

Thats means printing more and more money. Jeez, why haven't we been doing this for decades cause deficits and debt don't matter. Debt to GDP doesn't matter. Nothing matters, just print more money and dump it into the economy. Wow, just Wow!

You don't print actual money - you convert interest bearing dollars to real dollars in the ether. This, of course, is completely a theoretical exercise. There's no reason we'd want to pay our debt off. Debt, deficits, and interest bearing dollars are healthy for the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2020, 12:00:37 am
You don't print actual money - you convert interest bearing dollars to real dollars in the ether. This, of course, is completely a theoretical exercise. There's no reason we'd want to pay our debt off. Debt, deficits, and interest bearing dollars are healthy for the economy.

 :o
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on June 26, 2020, 02:20:12 am
So a group of 19 prominent Canadian idiots wrote an open letter urging Trudeau to release Meng Wanzhou:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/letter-release-meng-1.5625669

What a cosmically stupid idea that is. 

Thankfully Trudeau dismissed the idea.  While I don't think the PM is exactly the brightest guy, I'm very much relieved that he's smarter than the 19 prominent Canadian morons who wrote that letter. 

When I heard about the letter I thought it would be a bunch of clueless beatniks behind it.  But no, when you look at the list of names on the list, you see well known politicians, ambassadors, a Supreme Court justice, and so on. Louise Arbour, Allan Rock, Ed Broadbent, Lloyd Axworthy, and several others you'll probably recognize.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 26, 2020, 11:08:41 am
So a group of 19 prominent Canadian idiots wrote an open letter urging Trudeau to release Meng Wanzhou:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/letter-release-meng-1.5625669

What a cosmically stupid idea that is. 

Thankfully Trudeau dismissed the idea.  While I don't think the PM is exactly the brightest guy, I'm very much relieved that he's smarter than the 19 prominent Canadian morons who wrote that letter. 

When I heard about the letter I thought it would be a bunch of clueless beatniks behind it.  But no, when you look at the list of names on the list, you see well known politicians, ambassadors, a Supreme Court justice, and so on. Louise Arbour, Allan Rock, Ed Broadbent, Lloyd Axworthy, and several others you'll probably recognize.

 -k

He certainly can’t release her now.   Canada should have probably taken more care about doing the American’s political bidding in the first place though.  That would have been the time to be cautious and make sure the ramifications of this were looked at first.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2020, 06:35:06 pm
So a group of 19 prominent Canadian idiots wrote an open letter urging Trudeau to release Meng Wanzhou:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/letter-release-meng-1.5625669

What a cosmically stupid idea that is. 

Thankfully Trudeau dismissed the idea.  While I don't think the PM is exactly the brightest guy, I'm very much relieved that he's smarter than the 19 prominent Canadian morons who wrote that letter. 

When I heard about the letter I thought it would be a bunch of clueless beatniks behind it.  But no, when you look at the list of names on the list, you see well known politicians, ambassadors, a Supreme Court justice, and so on. Louise Arbour, Allan Rock, Ed Broadbent, Lloyd Axworthy, and several others you'll probably recognize.

 -k

What is the provenance of this letter? We know who signed it but who wrote it, put this group together and why?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 29, 2020, 08:02:54 pm
We should all be disturbed by this:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/bill-horrace-war-crimes-london-ontario-canada-1.5624295

Canadian authorities knew an accused Liberian war criminal was alive, well and living freely in this country for at least a decade before he was gunned down during a violent home invasion in London, Ont.
...
On Tuesday, the London Police Service confirmed the Bill Horace killed in the Sunday morning home invasion was the same Bill Horace who served as a rebel commander under Charles Taylor a former African warlord and convicted war criminal.
...
The group Global Research and Justice Project (GRJP), based in Liberia, has wanted Horace tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity under international law, said Hassan Bility, the executive director GRJP.
...
Bility said unlike authorities in the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Finland, Switzerland and Belgium, who aggressively pursue the prosecution of international war criminals, Canada is a laggard that is rarely stirred into action, even when a monster accused of murdering unarmed civilians may be living in our midst.  "Canada is not very enthusiastic," he said. "The Canadian authorities they just don't get moved."
...
Bility said the allegations against Horace include the murders of dozens of unarmed civilians, including the massacre of 60 people at an abandoned Liberian palm plantation, the alleged execution-style killings of five people in the Liberian port of Buchanan City, the alleged murder of an American logging magnate named Rob Huff and an unspecified number of alleged killings while serving directly under Charles Taylor at his wartime headquarters in Bonga City.
...
Valerie Oosterveld, a law professor and expert on war crime law at Western University, said the reason for that has nothing to do with law or justice. Rather, it all comes down to money.  "These cases are relatively rare because of budgetary reasons, to be honest," she said.
...
War crimes trials are very expensive because investigators must be sent to the country where the crime occurred, Oosterveld said. "You have to send investigators from Canada, for example, and if we're talking about [the Horace] case to Liberia, to gather evidence and then identify witnesses who could testify," she said.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 29, 2020, 09:18:05 pm
More disturbing is hand-picking a charity, close to the Trudeau family, to deal with $900Million in government grants.  Very unethical.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5631278
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on July 23, 2020, 07:33:04 pm
More disturbing is hand-picking a charity, close to the Trudeau family, to deal with $900Million in government grants.  Very unethical.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5631278


Boy, was I ever wrong about the way I felt about this when you posted it. I'll be disappointed if Morneau doesn't resign tomorrow, and if Trudeau isn't reigned in somehow.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on July 23, 2020, 07:38:51 pm
On the other hand, S&P and Moody's demonstrated how far out of it Fitch was with their credit downgrade for Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 23, 2020, 08:12:49 pm

Boy, was I ever wrong about the way I felt about this when you posted it. I'll be disappointed if Morneau doesn't resign tomorrow, and if Trudeau isn't reigned in somehow.

Don't know much about the Liberal talent pool for potential finance ministers but I have to think Freeland is more credible than Trudeau right now. At least she has been able to avoid controversy. Disregarding Blackface which was some time ago, the Aga Khan, India dressup, SNC and now WE have all come since JT has been PM. Are these guys slow learners, stupid or just so entitled they don't give a s**t? I really have to wonder.

Morneau may fall on his sword but I don't see JT going unless forced out by caucus.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on July 23, 2020, 10:09:33 pm
Don't know much about the Liberal talent pool for potential finance ministers but I have to think Freeland is more credible than Trudeau right now. At least she has been able to avoid controversy. Disregarding Blackface which was some time ago, the Aga Khan, India dressup, SNC and now WE have all come since JT has been PM. Are these guys slow learners, stupid or just so entitled they don't give a s**t? I really have to wonder.

Morneau may fall on his sword but I don't see JT going unless forced out by caucus.

Talent pool -

Duclos has a PhD from the London School of Economics and was a professor of economics at Laurentian,

 Wilkinson is a Rhodes Scholar in economics (among other things) and has a masters economics (again, among other things),

 Bains is an FCPA and has extensive financial experience in the private sector,

and Joyce Murray is an MBA who graduated at the top of her class at SFU (Deans Convocation Medal) with much experience. There are other people with lower levels of experience. Probably the most talented cabinet we’ve ever had in this and other areas tbh.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on July 24, 2020, 12:33:37 am
To me it feels like Bill Morneau is being set up to take the bullet for Trudeau.

I listened to this program today:  https://www.cpac.ca/en/programs/in-committee-house-of-commons/episodes/90012427/

It only added to my impression that the WE organization is pretty questionable. From the real estate holdings to the accusations of exploitation of young volunteers to the transfer of money between different arms of the organization, to the structure of the organization, it all seems ... odd. Jesse Brown talked about all of that stuff at some length to the House committee.  Vivian Krause added some interesting bits (a long with some unsubstantiated speculation). Krause talked about WE's partnerships with large corporations, as well as their privacy policy which states that they can provide your data to 3rd parties.

The impression I get is that WE is basically a way to monetize "wokeness".


So Bill Morneau took a $100,000 vacation in 2017, during which he received $41,000 of freebies from WE which he didn't bother paying back until this week.  And he has a daughter who works for WE, and another daughter whose book was promoted by WE.   That's all pretty damaging, but is that the real end game?  $41,000 is pocket-change for the Morneau family, isn't it?  He could get his daughter a job with a few phone calls. It seems like none of this would be worth the trouble for a guy like Morneau.

Ditto the Trudeaus. It's not like any of them need the speaking fees that were paid to Margaret and Sasha. It's not like Sophie needs whatever perks her gig with WE provides.  Aren't these people all quite wealthy?  It seems odd to me that they'd stick their necks out for the comparatively modest speaking fees and travel perks WE provided.

All of this seems very unethical, but I'm baffled as to what the point is.  For WE the point is obvious: if you make powerful friends, you can get powerful favors.  But for Morneau and Justin, what's in it for them?  For Trudeau, I am thinking that what he got out of it wasn't so much perks for his wife or money for his mom and brother, but rather a big stage. These guys were willing to treat Trudeau like a big rock star, and gave him a platform to promote his ideas and himself.  Maybe that's how they got him hooked on their kool-aid.


 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 01:17:00 am
It only added to my impression that the WE organization is pretty questionable. From the real estate holdings to the accusations of exploitation of young volunteers to the transfer of money between different arms of the organization, to the structure of the organization, it all seems ... odd. Jesse Brown talked about all of that stuff at some length to the House committee.  Vivian Krause added some interesting bits (a long with some unsubstantiated speculation). Krause talked about WE's partnerships with large corporations, as well as their privacy policy which states that they can provide your data to 3rd parties.

"citizenAuditor" Krause is a total charlatan! ... see past "debate' on the other board showcasing her prior biglyBigTime failures during prior House testimony!


WE Charity Response to Finance Committee Hearing
(https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/we-charity-response-to-finance-committee-hearing-831890925.html)

Quote
- False Claim that WE is "part of the Liberal Party election machine" or shared its database with third-parties
- False Claim that the CSSG contribution agreement was made with WE Charity Foundation, "a real estate holding company"
- False Claim that WE Charity inappropriately owns real estate.
- False Claim that WE Charity was in a financial crisis prior to the CSSG
- False Claim: ME to WE Social Enterprise is inappropriate
- False Claim: Kielburger family real estate benefiting from WE Charity
.
.
*Kate Bahen, lead of Charity Intelligence, was referenced at multiple times during the testimony. She has made multiple inaccurate statements to media over the over the past two weeks. Please see HERE (https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:c03a0163-d5d2-4a22-bd12-094b7252ba70#pageNum=1) for an open letter correcting the public record.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 10:18:15 am
Quote
To me it feels like Bill Morneau is being set up to take the bullet for Trudeau.
I think so too.



Quote
All of this seems very unethical, but I'm baffled as to what the point is.  For WE the point is obvious: if you make powerful friends, you can get powerful favors.  But for Morneau and Justin, what's in it for them?  For Trudeau, I am thinking that what he got out of it wasn't so much perks for his wife or money for his mom and brother, but rather a big stage. These guys were willing to treat Trudeau like a big rock star, and gave him a platform to promote his ideas and himself.  Maybe that's how they got him hooked on their kool-aid.


Tone deaf entitlement? Trudeau royalty syndrome?
Nothing else seems to make sense.
 
Entitlement isn't about money.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 10:27:28 am
(https://i.imgur.com/mv6BSE3.png)

more than funny... as in you're heeelarious!

... in the public domain:

=> The Narwhal's profile on Ms. Krause (https://thenarwhal.ca/topics/vivian-krause)

=> DESMOG Climate Disinformation Database - Vivian Krause (https://www.desmogblog.com/vivian-m-krause)

=> Debunked: Vivian Krause’s Tar Sands Campaign conspiracy narrative (https://energi.media/deep-dives/debunked-vivian-krauses-tar-sands-campaign-conspiracy-narrative/)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on July 24, 2020, 10:34:12 am

Boy, was I ever wrong about the way I felt about this when you posted it. I'll be disappointed if Morneau doesn't resign tomorrow, and if Trudeau isn't reigned in somehow.
Trudeau should be replaced with Chrystia Freeland.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 02:50:57 pm
oh my... isn't this the same guy out there demanding a Morneau resignation?

per 2018 report from Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion: Pierre Poilievre, the current Conservative "Shadow Minister" for Finance, accepted over $21,600 worth of free travel for him and his girlfriend to visit Taiwan.

bigDiff: Morneau has repaid his travel cost... waddabout you, hey PP?  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 02:58:09 pm
oh my... isn't this the same guy out there demanding a Morneau resignation?

per 2018 report from Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion: Pierre Poilievre, the current Conservative "Shadow Minister" for Finance, accepted over $21,600 worth of free travel for him and his girlfriend to visit Taiwan.

bigDiff: Morneau has repaid his travel cost... waddabout you, hey PP?  ;D

Not to justify Poilievre's actions but you do know the difference between a shadow minister and an actual minister?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 03:04:14 pm
oh my! Uhhh... hey member wilber, does this guy cast a... shadow?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/8ZKKRsT.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 03:07:34 pm
That 2018 report said that 1/5th of MP's received $620,000 in free travel during 2107. It would be interesting to know many have since, for how much and were any others in cabinet beside Morneau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 03:11:33 pm
oh my! Uhhh... hey member wilber, does this guy cast a... shadow?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/8ZKKRsT.png)


Again, do you not know the difference between a critic and a minister who has control over the public purse?
 
Looks like WE managed to be something was politically WOKE. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 03:13:03 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Hsy175R.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 03:32:55 pm
Watch: weakAndy admits he's full of shyte! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1286688244575412231/pu/vid/1298x720/F-SJWi_A31SAfCRe.mp4?tag=10)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 25, 2020, 10:09:48 am
what the lame-assed & ConMedia fails to adequately (if at all) present - public service recommendation!

=> thread reader roll-up of 11 related tweets from @IshatReza

(https://i.imgur.com/tOvvnHW.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on August 07, 2020, 10:54:08 pm
So our Governor General sounds like a bit of a flake.  A few weeks ago we got reports that she and her assistant created a toxic work culture that caused a lot of staff turnover. Today we hear that she has demanded $250,000 worth of renovations, including a private stairway and a gate to keep staff away from her.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rideau-hall-expenses-privacy-projects-1.5676088

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 07, 2020, 11:14:25 pm
So our Governor General sounds like a bit of a flake.  A few weeks ago we got reports that she and her assistant created a toxic work culture that caused a lot of staff turnover. Today we hear that she has demanded $250,000 worth of renovations, including a private stairway and a gate to keep staff away from her.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rideau-hall-expenses-privacy-projects-1.5676088

 -k

The stupid thing is that the government acquiesced to these silly demands.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 09, 2020, 12:53:02 pm
StatsCan with the July jobs report... continuing on towards pre-COVID numbers!

=> jobs restored 3 months in a row --- 1.66 million jobs added back to Canadian economy the past 3 months

=> 55% recovery in jobs lost in Mar & Apr

=> unemployment rate now at 10.9%... down from 14% in May

by the by, a most pleasant change from CBC! Fact based Catherine Cullen appearing more often (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1292110088707158017/pu/vid/1280x720/dEQImAhiIcFc50Jv.mp4?tag=10)... hey Vassy, Rosemary, take note. And you too Evan - especially, you too!

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 18, 2020, 08:14:17 am
So... anything new ?   :)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Boges on August 18, 2020, 08:28:38 am
So... anything new ?   :)

Morneau never planned to run more than twice.  :D

What a lame excuse for being canned by JT.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 08:45:33 am
Morneau never planned to run more than twice.  :D

What a lame excuse for being canned by JT.

lame? What's lame... really, really, really lame is yet another FuckerFife anonymous sourced G&M hit-job on Morneau, followed up by the many times over referenced Reuters article - which actually drawed upon FuckerFife's original swill. Job well done ConMedia et al!

apparently, to some, its a hard swallow to accept globalist Morneau aspires to lead the OECD - go figure, hey member Boges!

hey member Boges, is pigeonPierre okay with Freeland as Finance Minister?  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 18, 2020, 10:36:01 am
You really shouldn't call people names, Waldo...  :'(
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Boges on August 18, 2020, 11:29:48 am

apparently, to some, its a hard swallow to accept globalist Morneau aspires to lead the OECD - go figure, hey member Boges!


Very hard.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2020, 11:58:11 am
Well, now that's settled on to the next fiasco.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2020, 01:32:12 pm
Morneau out, Freeland in. Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 05:06:50 pm
hey member squiggy - thanks for the dumbTag... now RUDENESS REDACTED BY MODERATOR HARDNER!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 05:07:54 pm
Well, now that's settled on to the next fiasco.

manufactured CPC/Scheer/#PigeonPierre "fiasco"
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 05:14:41 pm
apparently, to some, its a hard swallow to accept globalist Morneau aspires to lead the OECD - go figure, hey member Boges!

hey member Boges, is #PigeonPierre okay with Freeland as Finance Minister?  ;D
Very hard.

why so hard? Morneau can stand on the merits of Canada's Covid response... and now has a want for a greater (OECD) platform. What does it say about you (and your conservative bent) that you can't... won't accept Morneau sees an opening where he can have even more influence - why the need to be so negative, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 18, 2020, 06:48:06 pm
@waldo your insult was redacted by me

Other than that - your presence on the thread is warmly welcomed
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 18, 2020, 06:50:29 pm
Freeland's star is as high as it can get, with one exception.

When do we think she will be PM ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 18, 2020, 08:11:54 pm
Freeland's star is as high as it can get, with one exception.

When do we think she will be PM ?

Hopefully sooner rather than later....

If the Libs were smart, they would stage a coup (democratically speaking, of course).  The corruption with Trudeau has gotten to the stinky stage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 09:26:23 pm
hey member squiggy - thanks for the dumbTag... now RUDENESS REDACTED BY MODERATOR HARDNER!

how rude of you... delusions of grandeur Hardner! You started the thread - that's your only moderatorProwess!  ;D

here's a thought - why not target your delusions of grandeur toward member squiggy and his dipshyte need to tagPostsDumb - how about you put some attention thataway, hey! So long as that lil'Phacker continues his dumbTagn', you can be sure the waldo will respond, hey moderatorHardner!!!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 09:27:53 pm
@waldo your insult was redacted by me

Other than that - your presence on the thread is warmly welcomed

it was a term of endearment! Again, the RUDENESS REDACTED BY MODERATOR HARDNER! member squiggy continues to dumbTag posts... because he's a snivellingSnot!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 09:47:18 pm
c'mon... Harper used perogyPower 4 times! How soon, how convenient for CONDP members to forget this as they rise up against the powerOfPerogy exercised by PM Trudeau/Liberal government!

forces a confidence vote - now who wants an election... let's see, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2020, 10:32:11 pm
No matter, Carney will be the real finance minister.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 18, 2020, 11:40:17 pm
No matter, Carney will be the real finance minister.

Doubtful. Freeland is no slouch in anything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 19, 2020, 08:35:44 am
1. You started the thread - that's your only moderatorProwess!  ;D

2. why not target your delusions of grandeur toward member squiggy and his dipshyte need to tagPostsDumb - how about you put some attention thataway, hey!
1. Correct
2. How come ?  This come: Tagging a post as 'dumb' doesn't tag a PERSON as 'dumb'.  It's the difference between a harangue and an insult, I suppose.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on August 19, 2020, 10:18:03 am
Doubtful. Freeland is no slouch in anything.
It's hilarious that people keep underestimating her. She's going to be a great Prime Minister one day.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Dia on August 19, 2020, 11:03:16 am
c'mon... Harper used perogyPower 4 times! n... let's see

So?  That's irrelevant because we want better, and not more of the same. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 11:46:28 am
c'mon... Harper used perogyPower 4 times! How soon, how convenient for CONDP members to forget this as they rise up against the powerOfPerogy exercised by PM Trudeau/Liberal government!

forces a confidence vote - now who wants an election... let's see, hey!

So?  That's irrelevant because we want better, and not more of the same.

which you're getting! Harper Conservatives prorogued to avoid a confidence vote - PM Trudeau/Liberals prorogued to reset the government's policy and legislative agenda... the prior 'Throne Speech and related policy', of course, had no mention/reference to COVID-19. And as I said, most pointedly, this perogy forces a confidence vote - so let's just wait and see which parties call for an election! Lets just see!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 11:55:19 am
Tagging a post as 'dumb' doesn't tag a PERSON as 'dumb'.  It's the difference between a harangue and an insult, I suppose.

oh really! Your interpretive powers allow you to read the intent of member squiggy's most indiscriminate tagging, hey! I particularly relish those posts where its clear someone has spent time researching the related subject post - perhaps even crafting a related graphic... only to have the snivelingSnot throw down a dumbTag - a tagging that most certainly is aimed at the originator, not the subject post!

and gravy has flowed once again. It's clear member squiggy takes exception to having his posts similarly tagged 'dumb'... he once again has retaliated to my purposeful tagging his most recent posts as dumb! Member squiggy retaliation that has him similarly dumb tagging all my most recent posts. Apparently the poor lil' phacker has some real thin skin!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Dia on August 19, 2020, 12:09:51 pm
which you're getting! Harper Conservatives prorogued to avoid a confidence vote - PM Trudeau/Liberals prorogued to reset the government's policy and legislative agenda... the prior 'Throne Speech and related policy', of course, had no mention/reference to COVID-19. And as I said, most pointedly, this perogy forces a confidence vote - so let's just wait and see which parties call for an election! Lets just see!

Yup, but it seems mighty convenient that this prorogue comes just when a scandal involving the PM is being investigated.   A week or two delay to get through that might have been better optics, and perhaps even shown him not to be at any fault. 

On the plus side, they did release a bumch of documents just begore heading out.

I suspect JT would not mind an election right now, as his approval rating is relatively high and he currently is a few points ahead of Conservstives.  Returning in a month with a plausible plan to address social supports and the environment might be enough to get him another majority.

Or not; a lot of people are pretty disillusioned with JT so he may still struggle to get reelected if the Conservative candidate can put together a platform that addresses people's concerns around pandemics, finances and the environment

It'll be interesting.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 19, 2020, 12:11:34 pm
Oh Waldo....    when have I ever complained about my post getting “dumb tagged”?   I’ll save you the research time...   the answer is never.   Stop being a butthurt whiny UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER..  If you have an issue with tags, convince the moderator to turn them off. 

If you look carefully, you’ll even find some other tags, like “agree”, that I tagged your posts with.  Hint:  it’s the 1 or 2 non-dumb posts you’ve made....
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 12:20:36 pm
Yup, but it seems mighty convenient that this prorogue comes just when a scandal involving the PM is being investigated.   A week or two delay to get through that might have been better optics, and perhaps even shown him not to be at any fault. 

On the plus side, they did release a bunch of documents just before heading out.

and those just released docs reinforce what PM Trudeau/Telford stated in their testimony... that the public service chose, then recommended, WE charity. That, PM Trudeau, did not want WE Charity and pushed back on that initial recommendation; in effect asking for a re-do by the public service. As stated previously in this thread, PM Trudeau had his personal sights set on the preexisting Canada Student Service Corps delivering the program... a group PM Trudeau wanted to flourish/expand.

#pigeonPierre has run out of runway!  ;D Just another fake "scandal" pushed forward by the CPC/Scheer/#pigeonPierre and a most obliging media!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 12:24:28 pm
Oh Waldo....    when have I ever complained about my post getting “dumb tagged”?   I’ll save you the research time...   the answer is never.   Stop being a butthurt whiny UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER..  If you have an issue with tags, convince the moderator to turn them off. 

If you look carefully, you’ll even find some other tags, like “agree”, that I tagged your posts with.  Hint:  it’s the 1 or 2 non-dumb posts you’ve made....

hey buddy, your actions showcase your complaining... for the second time now, you've taken exception to me purposely dumb-tagging all your recent posts. Your exception complaining is to retaliate by dumb tagging all my most recent posts! But sure, you're not complainin'  ;D

you're a dipshyteExtraordinaire... gleefully looking for attention - which the waldo is most willing to oblige. Continue your dumbTagging - I'll continue the same and point out your dipshytery each and every time! Be happy you lilPhacker!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 12:32:42 pm
If you look carefully, you’ll even find some other tags, like “agree”, that I tagged your posts with.  Hint:  it’s the 1 or 2 non-dumb posts you’ve made....

see member Hardner! There's nothing personal here... clearly member squiggy is post focused and not targeting individuals!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 19, 2020, 12:37:44 pm
hey buddy, your actions showcase your complaining... for the second time now, you've taken exception to me purposely dumb-tagging all your recent posts. Your exception complaining is to retaliate by dumb tagging all my most recent posts! But sure, you're not complainin'  ;D

you're a dipshyteExtraordinaire... gleefully looking for attention - which the waldo is most willing to oblige. Continue your dumbTagging - I'll continue the same and point out your dipshytery each and every time! Be happy you lilPhacker!

Retaliation?   I’m posting your dumb posts as dumb wherever I see them.  Nothing has changed.  Tag away!  That’s what it’s there for! 

I’m sure if you as JMT nicely, he’ll make the changes you want. 

Or maybe you’ll whine and snivel about being hard done by again and slink away.  Seems only you and Shady do that....   

Tell you what....   here’s an olive branch....   I will not dumb tag your posts anymore....   I will only use the informative  button (sarcastically...  but no one will know this) for any post I would have used dumb on previously.  This will spare your feelings and your butthurt. 

I am willing to do this for you UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 01:08:09 pm
Tell you what....   here’s an olive branch....   I will not dumb tag your posts anymore....   I will only use the informative  button (sarcastically...  but no one will know this) for any post I would have used dumb on previously.  This will spare your feelings and your butthurt. 

I am willing to do this for you UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER..

geezaz! You gave it away - how Trumpian of you  ;D you're not too bright, are you?

clearly, going to such trouble with this reply speaks to your sadlil' pitiful self. Hey now - when you pull the dumbTag trigger, do you get a chubby?

and just so you don't get away with making this a one-on-one, other members have also complained about your penchant for dumbTagin' their posts. If nothing else, you're an equal opportunity dipshyte!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 19, 2020, 01:14:30 pm
It's hilarious that people keep underestimating her. She's going to be a great Prime Minister one day.

Oddly, my leftist friends all seem to think so too.  I'm a little more guarded but I like a few things about her:

1) Came from journalism, not law or academia
2) Doesn't seem to be a silver spoon kid
3) Negotiated very strongly with the US on the new NAFTA

She could be the political unicorn we have been awaiting.  And we all could reunite with the Waldo even... I'm getting wet eyed...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 19, 2020, 01:38:04 pm
Oddly, my leftist friends all seem to think so too.  I'm a little more guarded but I like a few things about her:

1) Came from journalism, not law or academia
2) Doesn't seem to be a silver spoon kid
3) Negotiated very strongly with the US on the new NAFTA

She could be the political unicorn we have been awaiting.  And we all could reunite with the Waldo even... I'm getting wet eyed...

This will be interesting. Finance Minister can be a step away from PM or a career killer.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 20, 2020, 05:56:04 am
   GIANTESS SEIZES POWER !!!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/8UHuWxw.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 20, 2020, 12:38:10 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/cNGnF2p.png)

which you're getting! Harper Conservatives prorogued to avoid a confidence vote - PM Trudeau/Liberals prorogued to reset the government's policy and legislative agenda... the prior 'Throne Speech and related policy', of course, had no mention/reference to COVID-19. And as I said, most pointedly, this perogy forces a confidence vote - so let's just wait and see which parties call for an election! Lets just see!

(https://i.imgur.com/E3lOhGe.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 21, 2020, 08:54:36 am
If a post is dumb, I'll tag it as dumb, just to make it clear.

Also, as a reminder, I'm not really actively moderating. I'm not ignoring reports so much as just disregarding them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 21, 2020, 08:58:16 am
It's hilarious that people keep underestimating her. She's going to be a great Prime Minister one day.

Did you see her put David Akin in his place yesterday?

https://twitter.com/gtlem/status/1296536979530829827?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 21, 2020, 10:50:53 am
If a post is dumb, I'll tag it as dumb, just to make it clear.

that one particular member here so liberally... so incessantly... tags posts as dumb is a testament to the most indiscriminate nature of the/his act! That there is a history of multiple members railing against the particular members propensity to tag posts as dumb is a testament to the most indiscriminate nature of the/his act! Do I personally give a flyingPhack about the lilShyte's dumbTagn' - NO, I don't. What I do object to is... the most indiscriminate nature of the/his act as it impacts upon the membership at large and the fact the lilShyte chooses to so wantonly sow division with the ease of a most dismissive dumbTag... irregardless of whether or not a posting member has taken the time to post... taken the time to research the subject matter of the post... taken the time to present a cogent, meaningful and contextually relevant post. To choose to simply liberally/incessantly shyte upon posts with a dumbTag... because he can... is the act of a purposeful disruptor! Knock it off member squiggy!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on August 25, 2020, 12:39:01 pm
No matter, Carney will be the real finance minister.

I don't think the Finance Minister needs to be the best economist in the country, any more than the Justice Minister needs to be the best judge in the country or the Health Minister needs to be the best doctor in the country. These are primarily management roles.  She'll have the best advisors available (including Carney), and she'll have an army of economists and accountants available.

Also, I object to the idea that we need to have a businessman or a stock-broker or a hedge-fund manager as Finance Minister.  I can see why business executives or stock-brokers or hedge-fund managers would like to see somebody with their perspective running the economy. But policies that are great for big businesses and stock markets and hedge funds aren't necessarily policies that are great for the economy at large.  They're increasingly disconnected from the economic well being of the majority of people.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 25, 2020, 01:20:42 pm
By the way, I just found out O'Toole wants to defund the CBC and turn the airwaves into another corporate wasteland.

I may as well mail my ballot in now... I hate the Conservatives for making me vote Liberal time in and time out...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 25, 2020, 03:58:21 pm
By the way, I just found out O'Toole wants to defund the CBC and turn the airwaves into another corporate wasteland.

I may as well mail my ballot in now... I hate the Conservatives for making me vote Liberal time in and time out...

Apparently, he also wants to re criminalize marijuana.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Dia on August 25, 2020, 05:15:32 pm
Apparently, he also wants to re criminalize marijuana.

So, basically, Conservatives don't actually want to win?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 25, 2020, 05:24:07 pm
Apparently, he also wants to re criminalize marijuana.

What.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 25, 2020, 05:27:46 pm
What.

O’Toole wants there to be tickets for marijuana....  so still illegal.

https://erinotoolemp.com/2017/04/18/up-in-smoke/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 25, 2020, 05:41:12 pm
O’Toole wants there to be tickets for marijuana....  so still illegal.

https://erinotoolemp.com/2017/04/18/up-in-smoke/

Finding police forces willing to write them might be a problem.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 25, 2020, 05:57:43 pm
By the way, I just found out O'Toole wants to defund the CBC and turn the airwaves into another corporate wasteland.

I may as well mail my ballot in now... I hate the Conservatives for making me vote Liberal time in and time out...

(https://i.imgur.com/MX1wEF5.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 27, 2020, 06:52:19 pm
Fitch really needs to stop interfering in internal Canadian politics. No one believes that there's any chance that Canada would default on Canadian dollar debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 27, 2020, 07:26:48 pm
Fitch really needs to stop interfering in internal Canadian politics. No one believes that there's any chance that Canada would default on Canadian dollar debt.

Sorry but if your debt to GDP doesn’t qualify you for a triple A rating, you don’t get one.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 27, 2020, 07:49:59 pm
Sorry but if your debt to GDP doesn’t qualify you for a triple A rating, you don’t get one.

If that's true, the US shouldn't have one.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 27, 2020, 10:18:21 pm
If that's true, the US shouldn't have one.

Depends on the agency. It doesn't with some.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 08:44:17 am
Depends on the agency. It doesn't with some.

It does with Fitch. That's the point. They're the ones obsessed with gross government debt (the others use the net numbers). The US owes 21% more of GDP than Canada, yet they keep a AAA. Canada is in no more danger of default than the US.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 09:43:12 am
It does with Fitch. That's the point. They're the ones obsessed with gross government debt (the others use the net numbers). The US owes 21% more of GDP than Canada, yet they keep a AAA. Canada is in no more danger of default than the US.

Ratings are subjective that is why there are so many and they don’t agree. Fitch is concerned with Canada’s ability to maintain and support that level of borrowing. So am I.

When Harper borrowed 55 billion During the financial crisis in 09/10, the world was coming to an end. Trudeau borrows five times that in 2020 and it’s no big deal. It is a big deal.

Actually it is more like seven times 09/10.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 10:14:07 am
When Harper borrowed 55 billion During the financial crisis in 09/10, the world was coming to an end. Trudeau borrows five times that in 2020 and it’s no big deal. It is a big deal.

Neither is a big deal. Every country has been impacted similarly, and it's curious that Fitch has chosen Canada (and Australia) to single out over it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 10:45:42 am
Neither is a big deal. Every country has been impacted similarly, and it's curious that Fitch has chosen Canada (and Australia) to single out over it.

The debt has been increased by 50% in one year, it is reasonable to ask where it will end and will it be sustainable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2020, 11:05:13 am
Ratings are subjective that is why there are so many and they don’t agree. Fitch is concerned with Canada’s ability to maintain and support that level of borrowing. So am I.

(https://i.imgur.com/ovitTRh.png)

dang member wilber! Fitch Ratings downgraded their assigned rating for Canada... from Outstanding... to Excellent/Stable  ;D

now you do the rest of the G7 countries - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2020, 11:16:28 am
c'mon waldo, by taking a snapshot from the Toronto SUN... you're just messin' with them, right?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/DwCI7tM.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 12:10:32 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ovitTRh.png)

dang member wilber! Fitch Ratings downgraded their assigned rating for Canada... from Outstanding... to Excellent/Stable  ;D

now you do the rest of the G7 countries - yes?

I'm not concerned with the rest of the G7 countries, I'm concerned about my country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2020, 01:19:02 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ovitTRh.png)

dang member wilber! Fitch Ratings downgraded their assigned rating for Canada... from Outstanding... to Excellent/Stable  ;D

now you do the rest of the G7 countries - yes?
I'm not concerned with the rest of the G7 countries, I'm concerned about my country.

3 of the 4 major rating organizations maintain Canada's AAA rating... but you're concerned!  ;D I can also appreciate why your concern doesn't allow you to compare Canada to the other G7 countries - cause Canada, comparatively speaking, rates among the highest - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 01:26:39 pm
3 of the 4 major rating organizations maintain Canada's AAA rating... but you're concerned!  ;D I can also appreciate why your concern doesn't allow you to compare Canada to the other G7 countries - cause Canada, comparatively speaking, rates among the highest - yes?
So why are you and JMT getting all sweaty about being down graded by Fitch if everything is so rosy?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 04:48:27 pm
So why are you and JMT getting all sweaty about being down graded by Fitch if everything is so rosy?

Did you read their release, going on and on about left wing governments? It's bullshit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 04:53:56 pm
Did you read their release, going on and on about left wing governments? It's bullshit.
I did and I didn’t see anything of the sort.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 07:35:19 pm
I did and I didn’t see anything of the sort.

The Liberal Party, headed by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, governs with only a minority of seats in parliament and relies on center-left and left-wing minority parties to pass legislation.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/canadas-growing-deficit-raises-fiscal-consolidation-risks-27-08-2020

The **** business is that of theirs? And what does that have to do with budgets?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 08:45:13 pm
The Liberal Party, headed by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, governs with only a minority of seats in parliament and relies on center-left and left-wing minority parties to pass legislation.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/canadas-growing-deficit-raises-fiscal-consolidation-risks-27-08-2020

The **** business is that of theirs? And what does that have to do with budgets?

How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 08:47:51 pm
The Liberal Party, headed by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, governs with only a minority of seats in parliament and relies on center-left and left-wing minority parties to pass legislation.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/canadas-growing-deficit-raises-fiscal-consolidation-risks-27-08-2020

The **** business is that of theirs? And what does that have to do with budgets?


And what exactly is inaccurate about that statement?

How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 29, 2020, 09:15:03 am
How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?

I'm saying that left wing governments can be just as financially literate as right wing ones.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 29, 2020, 09:24:33 am
I'm saying that left wing governments can be just as financially literate as right wing ones.

And they are saying tha minority governments have to please other parties to stay in power. The same would be true of a Conservative minority government. The opposition parties were pressuring Harper to spend more in 2010, the NDP and Bloc will do the same to Trudeau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on August 29, 2020, 10:38:43 am

How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?
I'd like to know how anyone can look at what's happening in the US these days and conclude it rates a AAA grade. Apparently a stable political system run by reasonably straight thinking people doesn't mean squat.  The Lebanese Pound or Belarusian Ruble may as well be the world's reserve currency these days.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 29, 2020, 11:42:11 am
And they are saying tha minority governments have to please other parties to stay in power. The same would be true of a Conservative minority government. The opposition parties were pressuring Harper to spend more in 2010, the NDP and Bloc will do the same to Trudeau.

Yet they only seem worried about the pressure of the 'left wing parties.'
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 29, 2020, 12:08:15 pm
Yet they only seem worried about the pressure of the 'left wing parties.'

Well just look at the spending demands the NDP is making. They are a left wing party.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 29, 2020, 12:17:07 pm
Well just look at the spending demands the NDP is making. They are a left wing party.

tell that to Jugmeat - he's lost his way!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 29, 2020, 01:42:59 pm
tell that to Jugmeat - he's lost his way!

So what, it is a political reality for any minority government. Perhaps the rating would not have been lowered if Trudeau had a majority. We don't know.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 03, 2020, 11:17:45 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-throne-speech-pandemic-budget-1.5709695

Apparently fiscal anchors are so yesterday.

Hate to do it but it's time to start buying some gold.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 05, 2020, 08:07:35 pm
https://policymagazine.ca/a-fall-budget-2020-strategy-drive-toward-the-future/

Interesting context to the upcoming spending. Canada is far from alone.

Also, net debt, including assets, paints Canada in a far better light https://twitter.com/ifsd_ifpd/status/1302286326214127617?s=21
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 05, 2020, 10:32:13 pm
Last April, for the first time ever the investment company we use recommended putting a bit of our portfolio in gold, so we did. It's up about 11% since then. We have some GIC's coming due and they are recommending putting a bit more in gold. This is a complete 180 for them. Whenever I had asked about gold before the response was always, we don't do gold.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 11:11:16 am
Last April, for the first time ever the investment company we use recommended putting a bit of our portfolio in gold, so we did. It's up about 11% since then. We have some GIC's coming due and they are recommending putting a bit more in gold. This is a complete 180 for them. Whenever I had asked about gold before the response was always, we don't do gold.

I laugh because gold's value is just as fictitious as a fiat currency.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 12:52:12 pm
I laugh because gold's value is just as fictitious as a fiat currency.

Gold's value is determined by confidence in a fiat currency. The lower the confidence, the higher the gold price.
The supposed new economics believes massive increases in money supply will not increase inflation. Gold is a hedge against that being wrong.
Personally I would rather not be buying gold because it doesn't pay a dividend and provide income. It is purely defensive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 01:25:21 pm
A great piece by economist Mike Moffatt today in Medium:

https://medium.com/@MikePMoffatt/interest-on-federal-debt-the-double-whammy-hypothesis-and-putting-my-money-where-my-mouth-is-584a9aeab326
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 02:17:30 pm
A great piece by economist Mike Moffatt today in Medium:

https://medium.com/@MikePMoffatt/interest-on-federal-debt-the-double-whammy-hypothesis-and-putting-my-money-where-my-mouth-is-584a9aeab326
I’m supposed to be impressed by a $100 wager? If he is wrong, his $100 won’t be worth much anyway.
I would be a lot more impressed if he said he was putting a few 100K of his own money into 10 year government bonds at O.5%
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 02:37:36 pm
I’m supposed to be impressed by a $100 wager? If he is wrong, his $100 won’t be worth much anyway.
I would be a lot more impressed if he said he was putting a few 100K of his own money into 10 year government bonds at O.5%

Point out where he's wrong. This is our current debt service level:

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 02:40:36 pm
If you invest $100 K in a ten year government bond at 0.5 % that has your interest taxed at 25% and inflation averages 2%, after 10 years, your 100K will have been been worth less than 85K. Does that sound like a good investment?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 02:43:03 pm
If you invest $100 K in a ten year government bond at 0.5 % that has your interest taxed at 25% and inflation averages 2%, after 10 years, your 100K will have been been worth less than 85K. Does that sound like a good investment?

You know institutions have have been buying them at these low rates for a long time, right? Right now, central banks are buying bonds themselves in many cases as part of their policy goals. These aren't really for personal investment.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 02:46:45 pm
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-are-four-reasons-why-investors-buy-negative-yielding-bonds-2019-08-21
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 09:18:30 pm
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-are-four-reasons-why-investors-buy-negative-yielding-bonds-2019-08-21

All of them are speculative plays, no different from investing in the stock markets only with less potential upside.

What is actually happening with these huge deficits is central banks are loaning to governments at artificially low interest rates. In other words, printing money.

I'm still waiting to hear if that expert is putting his own money into 10 year government bonds.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 09:21:28 pm
Point out where he's wrong. This is our current debt service level:

In the seventies that level was below 2% and the same justification was used to borrow more and by the nineties it was over 6%. You believe that can never happen again. I don't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 07, 2020, 12:24:23 pm

In the seventies that level was below 2% and the same justification was used to borrow more and by the nineties it was over 6%. You believe that can never happen again. I don't.

I believe it's possible. I also understand the context under which Canada's large deficits will be happening. Everyone who isn't Norway is doing this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 09, 2020, 11:42:32 am
OPPO's fall political preview.  Interesting points to me:

https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/71-fall-political-preview/

Prediction of no fall election
Assessment that O'Toole will soon drive hard to the centre
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 09, 2020, 12:49:28 pm
OPPO

before the waldo would even consider listening... does that azzhole 'Jesse Brown' have anything to do with OPPO - directly (as a part of the podcast) or indirectly by way of editing/tailoring what's discussed/presented?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 09, 2020, 01:09:16 pm
before the waldo would even consider listening... does that azzhole 'Jesse Brown' have anything to do with OPPO - directly (as a part of the podcast) or indirectly by way of editing/tailoring what's discussed/presented?

He doesn't have a hand in the contest AFAIK.

Does it really take one bad story for you to bear such a grudge against a news outlet though ?  Do you spit on the ground when you see the Globe and Mail newspaper box ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 09, 2020, 01:11:52 pm
He doesn't have a hand in the contest AFAIK.

Does it really take one bad story for you to bear such a grudge against a news outlet though ?  Do you spit on the ground when you see the Globe and Mail newspaper box ?

hardly ONE bad story! Separating out what the azzhole Brown has done vis-a-via WE, that allowed the waldo to gain understanding/perspective on just what other shyte that azzhole has been engaged in!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 09, 2020, 11:54:38 pm
All the articles i've read state mr Trudeau will be introducing quite the spendy mcspendster of a spending plan during and/or following the Throne Speech, complete with lots of green initiates.  I can see why Morneau and him butted heads.

And now we have O'Toole with his new "Canada First" slogan.  Quite the decision to borrow a slogan from the most hated politician among Canadians (Justin Trudeau a close second!).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 09, 2020, 11:57:29 pm
All of them are speculative plays, no different from investing in the stock markets only with less potential upside.

What is actually happening with these huge deficits is central banks are loaning to governments at artificially low interest rates. In other words, printing money.

I'm still waiting to hear if that expert is putting his own money into 10 year government bonds.

Don't worry we can print money because we can create money on a computer with just a keystroke.  Money grows on trees now and we all ride magical unicorns over candy rainbows.  Cue John Lennon's "Imagine".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 10, 2020, 09:55:56 am
All the articles i've read state mr Trudeau will be introducing quite the spendy mcspendster of a spending plan during and/or following the Throne Speech, complete with lots of green initiates.  I can see why Morneau and him butted heads.

Europe is planning to spend the equivalent of Canada spending $100B over the next 5 years for future investment. We risk being left behind in a quickly changing economy if we don't spend.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 10, 2020, 11:04:15 am
All the articles i've read state mr Trudeau will be introducing quite the spendy mcspendster of a spending plan during and/or following the Throne Speech, complete with lots of green initiates.  I can see why Morneau and him butted heads.

And now we have O'Toole with his new "Canada First" slogan.  Quite the decision to borrow a slogan from the most hated politician among Canadians (Justin Trudeau a close second!).

What makes you think Trudeau is “hated”.  What’s his approval rating among Canadians?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 10, 2020, 11:05:47 am
Europe is planning to spend the equivalent of Canada spending $100B over the next 5 years for future investment. We risk being left behind in a quickly changing economy if we don't spend.

I’m not sure why, but many Canadians take their cues from the USA.  Huge mistake.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 10, 2020, 12:26:58 pm
Europe is planning to spend the equivalent of Canada spending $100B over the next 5 years for future investment. We risk being left behind in a quickly changing economy if we don't spend.
Europe isn't a country.  It's also completely irrelevant what other countries want to spend.  If Europe drove off a cliff would you follow them?

I'm not saying we shouldn't spend, it all depends on what and how much.  We are in a recession after all, we will need spending support.  I guess we'll see what he has in store.

It's also a fact that Trudeau's poll numbers shot through the roof when he was giving away hundreds of billions in free money to Canadians, i'm sure that's also part of the calculus.  Sources within the gov privy to the Morneau/JT spat said JT was very focused on polling.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 10, 2020, 12:54:11 pm
I’m not sure why, but many Canadians take their cues from the USA.  Huge mistake.

Agreed.  Canada should do what's best for Canada, regardless of what the US or any other country is doing.

Culturally, Canada is good enough on its own merits.  We shouldn't need Americans to acknowledge us to make us feel special.  We didn't need the Tragically Hip to make it big on US radio for them to be great.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Dia on September 23, 2020, 02:46:32 pm
Listening to the Throne Speech, while I work - I'm not catching all of it, but I'm catching enough to envision apoplectic Conservatives across Canada.
- Women
- Seniors
- Environment
- Indigenous
- Systemic racism
- Promoting French
- Fast tracking immigrants who've worked in the care industry

Way too ambitious, imo.  Gonna need a couple of decades at least to get all that done. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 23, 2020, 02:57:41 pm
Listening to the Throne Speech, while I work - I'm not catching all of it, but I'm catching enough to envision apoplectic Conservatives across Canada.
- Women
- Seniors
- Environment
- Indigenous
- Systemic racism
- Promoting French
- Fast tracking immigrants who've worked in the care industry

Way too ambitious, imo.  Gonna need a couple of decades at least to get all that done.

As long as it sounds good.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 23, 2020, 03:02:41 pm
Dollar down almost half a cent. Related?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 24, 2020, 09:49:33 pm
That Throne speech/national address was a lot tamer than thought.

National daycare program.  Probably never going to happen.  Education is in the control of the provinces, they'd fight it.

I prefer just giving non-rich people the money and letting them look after their own early childhood education.  If there's demand for more childcare, people will open those businesses.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2020, 10:29:18 pm
That Throne speech/national address was a lot tamer than thought.

National daycare program.  Probably never going to happen.  Education is in the control of the provinces, they'd fight it.

I prefer just giving non-rich people the money and letting them look after their own early childhood education.  If there's demand for more childcare, people will open those businesses.

Basically a rehash of most of the promises from the last throne speech. Evidently it was necessary to prorogue Parliament for that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 25, 2020, 12:30:09 am
Basically a rehash of most of the promises from the last throne speech. Evidently it was necessary to prorogue Parliament for that.

 ;D c'mon member wilber... I've heard/read the exact same summation from 3 CPC members; granted, you're a little weak in also not mentioning the perogy covering up the fake trumped-up WE Charity thingee!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 25, 2020, 09:26:59 am
;D c'mon member wilber... I've heard/read the exact same summation from 3 CPC members; granted, you're a little weak in also not mentioning the perogy covering up the fake trumped-up WE Charity thingee!

Well other than some new pandemic spending, what exactly was new in this speeach?

I haven’t but now that you mention it, the perogy thing did shut that down as well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2020, 02:06:47 pm
so... the relentless WE Charity nattering of CPC #PigeonPierre and NDP CharlieLingus has emboldened the CPC to want to bring forward a voting motion to create a special committee, "to probe the government's {presumed} ethical lapses & pandemic response spending"... a committee that CPC leader O'Tool has actually called an "anti-corruption committee".

with the government alternatively proposing to strike a special committee with a narrower mandate to review federal COVID-19 program spending, PM Trudeau has declared the proposed CPC motion... a confidence motion with a related election call.

Quote from: PM Justin Trudeau
We have rolled out unprecedented measures to support Canadians, to support small businesses, to support families, to support communities right across the country, and we feel that parliamentarians should in this exceptional time have an ability to look very carefully at all that spending. And that's why we're proposing this special committee.

But it will be up to parliamentarians and the opposition to decide whether they want to make this minority Parliament work, or whether they've lost confidence in this government's ability to manage this pandemic and continue to govern this country during this crisis.

it's only coincidental that, today:

=> NDP leader Singh formally announces Margaret Trudeau should be off-limits to any considerations of scrutinizing the WE Charity... this after CharlieLingus has spent months demonizing her.

=> CharlieLingus announces he's done with twitter
(https://i.imgur.com/gB59qCx.png)

=> CPC leader O'Tool asks to have his beer held... and rushes forward to amend the motion stating it has been amended to include language specifying that creating the committee should not be deemed grounds to order an election.  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 20, 2020, 02:54:47 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/gB59qCx.png)

CharlieLingus announces



Which of the toxic cesspool hate bots on Twitter are you Waldo?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2020, 06:52:00 pm
Which of the toxic cesspool hate bots on Twitter are you Waldo?

member squiggy, my post offered you several aspects to comment on; yet, somehow you could only rise sink to this level. It gives me pause to wonder are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FVKo9vwIaY

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 21, 2020, 01:18:15 pm
Be nice.

Be Harder nice.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 01:20:25 pm
so... the relentless WE Charity nattering of CPC #PigeonPierre and NDP CharlieLingus has emboldened the CPC to want to bring forward a voting motion to create a special committee, "to probe the government's {presumed} ethical lapses & pandemic response spending"... a committee that CPC leader O'Tool has actually called an "anti-corruption committee".

with the government alternatively proposing to strike a special committee with a narrower mandate to review federal COVID-19 program spending, PM Trudeau has declared the proposed CPC motion... a confidence motion with a related election call.

it's only coincidental that, today:

=> NDP leader Singh formally announces Margaret Trudeau should be off-limits to any considerations of scrutinizing the WE Charity... this after CharlieLingus has spent months demonizing her.

=> CharlieLingus announces he's done with twitter

=> CPC leader O'Tool asks to have his beer held... and rushes forward to amend the motion stating it has been amended to include language specifying that creating the committee should not be deemed grounds to order an election.  ;D

will the government fall? NDP leader Singh - what's your planMan?  ;D

assuming no absences, how this afternoon confidence vote breaks down right now:

(https://i.imgur.com/7wCtAS1.png)

will the NDP abstain and throw it over to the Greens to bring down the Trudeau government? Oh my!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 01:29:17 pm
buggar! The waldo's crack research team missed this gem from this morning - a short while ago:

Quote from: NDP leader Singh
NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said today that his party will not give Prime Minister Justin Trudeau an "excuse" to send Canadians to the polls in the middle of a global pandemic — an apparent signal that Trudeau's government will survive today's confidence vote.

In a news conference just two hours before a crucial confidence vote, Singh declined to say exactly how his MPs would vote or whether they might abstain.

"We are voting for Canadians. We are voting against an election," he said.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 21, 2020, 02:04:08 pm
buggar! The waldo's crack research team missed this gem from this morning - a short while ago:

CBC yesterday was very biased against Trudeau and made it out to be all the blame of the Liberals if an election becomes necessary. It's not of course and it can't be spun that way.

Otherwise, so sad that the NDP has to play it up in favour of the Conservatives. In the end the NDP won't have the balls to push it to an election. Not to say they shouldn't because they might just as well dissolve into nothing now for all the good they can do. So disappointing for a socially leaning party that has roots in greatness.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 21, 2020, 02:15:16 pm
An election to avoid a committee that investigates Liberal government corruption?   

I don’t see anything wrong with such a committee.  Except if you’re a Liberal...   the more oversight of the government, the better.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 02:32:26 pm
An election to avoid a committee that investigates Liberal government corruption?   

I don’t see anything wrong with such a committee.

c'mon member squiggy!  ;D Try to keep up - the CPC/O'Tool backed off their proposed committee name - removing the word "corruption" from it! Apparently there was a tad push-back from media wags suggesting the CPC had a preconceived position - go figure, hey!

member squiggy, how about you? Since you've declared "Liberal government corruption"... give your reference points - what corruption? Name it/them! Sure you can.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 21, 2020, 02:37:29 pm
c'mon member squiggy!  ;D Try to keep up - the CPC/O'Tool backed off their proposed committee name - removing the word "corruption" from it! Apparently there was a tad push-back from media wags suggesting the CPC had a preconceived position - go figure, hey!

member squiggy, how about you? Since you've declared "Liberal government corruption"... give your reference points - what corruption? Name it/them! Sure you can.

Why are you and the Libs afraid of oversight?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 02:40:55 pm
member squiggy, how about you? Since you've declared "Liberal government corruption"... give your reference points - what corruption? Name it/them! Sure you can.
Why are you and the Libs afraid of oversight?

oversight of what? Is there a problem for you in actually naming your previously described "Liberal corruption"?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 06:43:19 pm
ok, ok... calm down everyone! The vote wasn't even close: MPs voted 180-146 to defeat the CPC/O'Tool motion, with the NDP, Greens and Independent MPs voting with the Liberals.

carry on!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 21, 2020, 07:48:27 pm
Bummer, looks like JT is going to have a tough time blaming an early election on someone else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 11:05:30 pm
geezaz - purrfect! From the notSoWaybackMachine, here's Harper Minister #PigeonPierre responding to an NDP question concerning documents received as a part of an NDP Access To Information request (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1317215113968013312/pu/vid/960x640/-elPcCEfvhlQBH1h.mp4?tag=10)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 11:14:45 pm
killer article from journalist 'Dale Smith'... Obfuscating jurisdiction to score points (https://looniepolitics.com/obfuscating-jurisdiction-to-score-points/)

Quote
It seems to come as a surprise to many people that Canada is a highly decentralized federation, with a constitutionally entrenched division of powers that prevents the federal government from blundering its way into the affairs of the provinces.  Sure, there are a few areas of shared jurisdiction that come with some push and pull between different levels of government, and there are places where the federal government plays a role that largely involves the transfer of funds to provinces for specific outcomes, or to ensure equal levels of access from province to province.  And yet, listening to politicians at both the federal and provincial levels of government, particularly lately, there seems to be no shortage of confusion as to just how much power and authority the federal government possesses in a myriad of portfolios.
.
Since the onset of the pandemic, jurisdictional confusion seems to have exploded.  Everyone has demanded that the federal government do something about rent (when landlord/tenant legislation is provincial), long-term care (again, provincial jurisdiction that the federal government provided military and Canadian Red Cross support with upon the request of the provinces), paid sick leave (about 90 percent provincial jurisdiction – federally regulated sectors include banking, telecom and transportation), and public health measures (which they provided lab capacity and contract tracers to provinces upon demand).  And the federal government got creative about how it could leverage its spending power to help provinces, but it wasn’t always successful (the commercial rent subsidy or disability support top-ups) because they don’t have the appropriate levers or databases that can provide that kind of direct support.  But that hasn’t stopped either opposition parties or even some provinces from complaining, when those provincial governments haven’t stepped up to solve things that are clearly in their jurisdiction.  Some provinces, like Alberta, decided to lay off school workers in their own jurisdiction and put them onto federal support payments, in a bout of spectacularly cynical buck-passing, and got away with it because of this deliberate confusion in the public sphere.
.
Of course, the opposition parties and the premiers know that there are jurisdictional issues, but they have been content to ignore the realities of them for the sake of playing politics.  For the opposition, it’s a cynical game of making it look like the federal government is sitting on their hands when they in fact lack the proper levers to take meaningful action – and they know it.  For premiers, it’s a kind of learned helplessness, insisting that the federal government needs to provide money or direction, or guidance, or to “take the lead” when it’s something that they can do on their own.

If the federal government did assert jurisdiction (likely through emergency powers), they would immediately cry bloody murder, that their constitutional rights were being trampled on, and that the division of powers exists for a reason, but in the meantime, they could take advantage of the fact that all eyes are focused on Ottawa, leaving them to escape accountability for their failures in the pandemic.  And what is most frustrating is the fact that media have been complicit in this, abiding by the ethos that nobody cares about jurisdiction in a pandemic – except they should, because the federal government can’t invent levers it doesn’t have, and the premiers need to be held to account for their own failings.  Playing into the cynical games of politicians who obfuscate jurisdictional questions leaves that accountability in doubt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 24, 2020, 10:10:35 am
The Conservatives are risking crippling Canada's medical device industry with their shenanigans. Dr. Fisman is having none of it:

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1319804634546974720?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 11:44:02 am
oversight of what?
The public's domain, especially that which exists behind closed doors in-camera.  Anything less is a corruption of the oft-stated dedication to transparency that virtually every political party, politician and their lickspittles claim to uphold.

I wouldn't btw waste my time putting responsibility for this oversight in the hands of politicians - it needs to be in ours.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 24, 2020, 11:56:16 am
The public's domain, especially that which exists behind closed doors in-camera.  Anything less is a corruption of the oft-stated dedication to transparency that virtually every political party, politician and their lickspittles claim to uphold.

I wouldn't btw waste my time putting responsibility for this oversight in the hands of politicians - it needs to be in ours.

yabut... cabinet confidence is a legitimate thing/need. In any case, my question was more focused on the fact there are existing committees in place to explore many of the wet-dreams of CPC/O'toolites
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 12:16:27 pm
yabut... cabinet confidence is a legitimate thing/need.
No, secrecy in the public's domain is just plain wrong and inappropriate. Politicians who can't inspire confidence with the things they say in secret do not deserve the opportunity to shoot their mouths off in public.

Quote
In any case, my question was more focused on the fact there are existing committees in place to explore many of the wet-dreams of CPC/O'toolites
And yet the band plays on like it has forever. Outlawing in-camera lobbying would represent the greatest single revolution in the history of human governance. That's my dream but its still pretty dry so...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 12:19:01 pm
The Conservatives are risking crippling Canada's medical device industry with their shenanigans. Dr. Fisman is having none of it:

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1319804634546974720?s=20

Sure, politics are being played here but since when has an audit stopped anything?  Dr Fisman protests too much.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 24, 2020, 12:52:28 pm
Sure, politics are being played here but since when has an audit stopped anything?  Dr Fisman protests too much.

Did you read the explanation of why it would stop contracts from being signed in Canada?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 24, 2020, 12:53:08 pm
Sure, politics are being played here...

ya think! So, member wilber... yet another confidence motion? Yet, another... in the midst of the pandemic?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/x6aLsbj.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 25, 2020, 09:13:28 pm
ya think! So, member wilber... yet another confidence motion? Yet, another... in the midst of the pandemic?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/x6aLsbj.png)


It's Trudeau who makes them confidence motions. The opposition has no say as to what is a confidence motion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 25, 2020, 11:29:21 pm

It's Trudeau who makes them confidence motions. The opposition has no say as to what is a confidence motion.

These motions have the capacity to cripple the government. They’re unprecedented. Making them confidence motions is the only way to ensure the NDP votes no.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 12:02:50 am
These motions have the capacity to cripple the government. They’re unprecedented. Making them confidence motions is the only way to ensure the NDP votes no.
How do they cripple government?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 12:08:58 am
How do they cripple government?

You don’t create a committee with an agenda and outcome that’s predetermined unless you’re trying to cause trouble. We already have an ethics committee and an ethics commissioner.

You don’t run an inquest into an ongoing pandemic response. First, there are the confidentiality issues related to medical device manufacture and vaccine/therapy research I already mentioned through Dr Fisman. Second, we’re in the middle of the pandemic. Looking into the response now is like doing an autopsy on someone who is still alive.  Further, the motion would literally require more documentation to be provided than any other ask in history. It’s designed to do one thing - cause trouble.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 26, 2020, 12:09:07 am
It's Trudeau who makes them confidence motions. The opposition has no say as to what is a confidence motion.

no - O'Tool came flat out and stated he had lost confidence in the government. Words have consequences!

Quote from: Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau
The Conservatives put forward a motion that clearly outlines their lack of confidence in the government. The opposition is going to have to decide whether or not they want to make this minority Parliament work or whether they have lost confidence in the government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 09:14:29 am
I’m quite enjoying the theatre coming or of Ottawa. The Liberals prorogued Parliament to try and put a lid on the We controversy. The Conservatives don’t really want an election but are playing it for all they are worth to make the Liberals look bad. The NDP really doesn’t want an election because they would be the big losers. The Bloq doesn’t care as long as they can spin it to their advantage. JT might want an election as long as he can blame it on someone else. Will the Conservatives push too hard and make themselves look unreasonable to the undecided and the NDP more justified in not supporting them or will JT be goaded into calling an election no one really wants? Will the pillow fighting continue or will we stumble into an unnecessary election? Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 12:28:14 pm
The theatre is bullshit. We’re in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 26, 2020, 12:38:38 pm
The theatre is bullshit. We’re in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.

Don't push it yet. We might be in a national crisis.
Although I would say it's pretty safe to predict something very horrible and scary. That's when it won't be political bullshit anymore.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 26, 2020, 01:01:50 pm
The theatre is bullshit. We’re in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.

We also were in a national crisis and they went on summer holidays to quash an ethics investigation.

There's nothing wrong for calling for an investigation into the WE charity thing or the gov COVID response.  There's something fishy about turning them into confidence motions to try and quash them or trigger an election you want but the public doesn't and so can blame on someone else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 26, 2020, 01:09:46 pm
We also were in a national crisis and they went on summer holidays to quash an ethics investigation.

There's nothing wrong for calling for an investigation into the WE charity thing or the gov COVID response.  There's something fishy about turning them into confidence motions to try and quash them or trigger an election you want but the public doesn't and so can blame on someone else.

Trudeau thinks turning to confidence motions plays well for his side. Do you think it doesn't? Or on the other hand, do you think it's playing well for the Conservatives?
Would that be important?  Personally, I'm not prepared to say either way right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 01:19:05 pm
The theatre is bullshit. We’re in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.

Aww.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 02:03:50 pm
We also were in a national crisis and they went on summer holidays to quash an ethics investigation.

There's nothing wrong for calling for an investigation into the WE charity thing or the gov COVID response.  There's something fishy about turning them into confidence motions to try and quash them or trigger an election you want but the public doesn't and so can blame on someone else.

You don’t do a post mortem while treating the patient.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 02:05:21 pm
You don’t do a post mortem while treating the patient.

And yet an opposition’s job is to keep government accountable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 02:08:02 pm
And yet an opposition’s job is to keep government accountable.

Playing silly games looks silly to most Canadians. The Conservatives have proposed nothing of substance since March.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 02:32:53 pm
Playing silly games looks silly to most Canadians. The Conservatives have proposed nothing of substance since March.

Accountability is always inconvenient.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 02:33:32 pm
Accountability is always inconvenient.

Accountability is different than this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 26, 2020, 03:33:25 pm
And yet an opposition’s job is to keep government accountable.

You were vehemently opposed to the NDP in BC calling an election, but you don’t seem to have an issue with Conservative Party gamesmanship to push Canada into an election... 

And you claimed to be against the “political maneuvering”....   that’s a bit hypocritical of you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 03:37:11 pm
You were vehemently opposed to the NDP in BC calling an election, but you don’t seem to have an issue with Conservative Party gamesmanship to push Canada into an election... 

And you claimed to be against the “political maneuvering”....   that’s a bit hypocritical of you.

No one gave their word or signed an agreement with another party.

They can play their games and try to score points but legislation is not in danger because the Conservatives won't get enough votes to topple the government and if they do, JT will be quite justified in going to the GG and asking for an election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 26, 2020, 03:51:53 pm
No one gave their word or signed an agreement with another party.

They can play their games and try to score points but legislation is not in danger because the Conservatives won't get enough votes to topple the government and if they do, JT will be quite justified in going to the GG and asking for an election.

“Written agreement” with another political party?  That sounds really naive in a minority government situation.  The people of BC obviously didn’t think that the agreement had much force.

And as soon as the Cons think they can win an election, they will do everything in their power to force an election.   That’s no different, and you would be cheering it on. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 04:58:08 pm
“Written agreement” with another political party?  That sounds really naive in a minority government situation.  The people of BC obviously didn’t think that the agreement had much force.

And as soon as the Cons think they can win an election, they will do everything in their power to force an election.   That’s no different, and you would be cheering it on.

So written agreements between parties are only agreements if they are convenient? Why have them at all? If you aren't going to keep your word, don't give your word.

Why do you keep making excuses for people who can't keep their word? If you don't demand ethical behaviour from politicians you will never get it.

BTW, the whole Green caucus signed the agreement with the NDP, it wasn't just between Horgan and Weaver as some would like to make out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 26, 2020, 07:03:25 pm
So written agreements between parties are only agreements if they are convenient? Why have them at all? If you aren't going to keep your word, don't give your word.

Why do you keep making excuses for people who can't keep their word? If you don't demand ethical behaviour from politicians you will never get it.

In a minority gov't situation, I don't really think it's realistic to think that some written agreement is going to forestall an election forever.  That's naive.  The written agreement was clearly non-binding on any of them, so that makes it risky.

Quote
BTW, the whole Green caucus signed the agreement with the NDP, it wasn't just between Horgan and Weaver as some would like to make out.

Not true.  The leaders of the NDP and Greens signed it.  So I can see Horgan's point of view that a new leader is a bit of a wild card... 

https://bcndpcaucus.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/05/BC-Green-BC-NDP-Agreement_vf-May-29th-2017.pdf

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 07:25:15 pm


You can spin it any way you want but the bottom line is Horgan broke the agreement, no one else and he was not given cause.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 26, 2020, 07:47:08 pm

You can spin it any way you want but the bottom line is Horgan broke the agreement, no one else and he was not given cause.

Ok.  He broke an agreement with the Greens...  I am a Green voter, and don’t really care. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 07:54:46 pm

You can spin it any way you want but the bottom line is Horgan broke the agreement, no one else and he was not given cause.

And on the other subject, you can spin as you will. The Conservatives are needlessly disrupting parliament during a global pandemic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 26, 2020, 08:07:49 pm
Ugly US politics of the rabid right probably slanted B.C. voters towar the left. Horgan likely read it as giving him better odds this time.

Great outcome!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 26, 2020, 08:30:11 pm
Ugly US politics of the rabid right probably slanted B.C. voters towar the left. Horgan likely read it as giving him better odds this time.

Great outcome!

No.  It was a local decision.  Nothing to do with the USA.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 08:34:54 pm
Surprising twist - the Conservatives are ahead in the York Centre byelection.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 26, 2020, 08:46:54 pm
Surprising twist - the Conservatives are ahead in the York Centre byelection.

Libs ahead now....   youtube has live results.

https://youtu.be/o3CcLInNJas
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 08:57:33 pm
Libs ahead now....   youtube has live results.

https://youtu.be/o3CcLInNJas

It looks like the Conservatives were better at getting the vote out. The national picture doesn't support this at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 10:06:03 pm
The constantly flipping results are something else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 10:52:11 pm
Someone just opened the boxes with the Liberal votes (probably a lot of absentee) and it jumped by 500.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 26, 2020, 11:47:36 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/7vXNxg2.png) --- 100% reported in both Toronto Centre & York Centre:

(https://i.imgur.com/r14qw9Y.png) 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on October 26, 2020, 11:50:19 pm
I'm assuming that these were both considered "safe" seats for the Liberals?

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 27, 2020, 12:24:01 am
Playing silly games looks silly to most Canadians. The Conservatives have proposed nothing of substance since March.

All the parties are playing politics here.  No party has any right to play holier than thou.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 12:55:30 am
I'm assuming that these were both considered "safe" seats for the Liberals?

 -k

York Centre isn’t safe Liberal but Toronto Centre is.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 12:57:16 am
All the parties are playing politics here.  No party has any right to play holier than thou.

I know you don’t like any politician, but in this case that’s bullshit. The Conservatives are playing politics at a level well beyond normal. It needs to be called out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 09:08:59 am


Not true.  The leaders of the NDP and Greens signed it.  So I can see Horgan's point of view that a new leader is a bit of a wild card... 

https://bcndpcaucus.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/05/BC-Green-BC-NDP-Agreement_vf-May-29th-2017.pdf

It says they were signing on behalf of their caucuses right above their signatures. It wasn’t just an agreement between the two of them.



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 12:40:44 pm
With everything that's happening in US politics I think we can conclude that it's not a good time for Conservative politicians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 27, 2020, 12:42:13 pm
No one gave their word or signed an agreement with another party.
A politician lied...aww.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:44:10 pm
A politician lied...aww.

Exactly, it's the only occupation where we expect people to lie, even in writing. And we pay them to do it. Sad.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 01:57:35 pm
Exactly, it's the only occupation where we expect people to lie, even in writing. And we pay them to do it. Sad.

It's part and parcel of the democratic system we choose wilbur. It's not perfect but it's probably still the best.
But it can work reasonably well in a socially responsible society such as Canada. It can't work and isn't working in a greedy capitalist society such as the US.

Trump? Seriously?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 27, 2020, 02:55:39 pm
I know you don’t like any politician, but in this case that’s bullshit. The Conservatives are playing politics at a level well beyond normal. It needs to be called out.

In what way?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 27, 2020, 02:56:20 pm
It's part and parcel of the democratic system we choose wilbur. It's not perfect but it's probably still the best.
But it can work reasonably well in a socially responsible society such as Canada. It can't work and isn't working in a greedy capitalist society such as the US.

Trump? Seriously?

Why is Trump and/or the USA in EVERY **** post you make?   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 03:02:24 pm
Why is Trump and/or the USA in EVERY **** post you make?

Because the outcome and the consequences are the most important issue in the world today!
I see a fascist regime in the making if Trump can get another 4 years.
And fwiw, I can easily see America resorting to the Kennedy solution if it becomes necessary.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 03:06:26 pm
In what way?

Calling doctors hired by the Conservatives Liberal donors because the Conservatives don't like what they have to say.

Discrediting the safety of voting by mail in Canada, because of course they would.

Endangering Canada's medical device and medical research industry to score political points.

Attempting to act like the deficits is more important than people's lives.

That's just in the last week.

Edit: I forgot this gem

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320849157838512128?s=20

And this one

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320798033706180610?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 03:07:50 pm
Exactly, it's the only occupation where we expect people to lie, even in writing. And we pay them to do it. Sad.

I expect people to lie all of the time. They invariably do. How naïve if you believe otherwise.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 27, 2020, 03:08:16 pm
Because the outcome and the consequences are the most important issue in the world today!
I see a fascist regime in the making if Trump can get another 4 years.
And fwiw, I can easily see America resorting to the Kennedy solution if it becomes necessary.

Nothing to do with the topic.  You’re a one-trick pony.  Maybe bordering on troll.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 03:10:13 pm
B.C. infection rates are looking very bad all of a sudden. If the current trend continues and escalates, it's going to make true fkng believers out of a lot of the 'fake virus' thinkers!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 27, 2020, 03:34:10 pm
Edit: I forgot this gem

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320849157838512128?s=20

And this one

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320798033706180610?s=20

Is this guy an actual journalist or an ideologue activist pretending to be a journalist?

I have to admit, i don't follow what these idiot politicians say to each other everyday because it would turn my mind into vomit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 03:43:14 pm
Is this guy an actual journalist or an ideologue activist pretending to be a journalist?

I have to admit, i don't follow what these idiot politicians say to each other everyday because it would turn my mind into vomit.

He's an actual journalist who specializes in Parliamentary procedure. These things are not normal that are going on. As someone who doesn't follow, you might not realize it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 05:47:26 pm
Because the outcome and the consequences are the most important issue in the world today!
I see a fascist regime in the making if Trump can get another 4 years.
And fwiw, I can easily see America resorting to the Kennedy solution if it becomes necessary.

This is the Canadian Politics forum.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 05:49:16 pm
I expect people to lie all of the time. They invariably do. How naïve if you believe otherwise.

No they don't. I know plenty of people who don't lie.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 05:59:11 pm
No they don't. I know plenty of people who don't lie.

All of us lie. Again, naïve:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/everybody-lies-how-google-reveals-darkest-secrets-seth-stephens-davidowitz
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 07:16:42 pm
All of us lie. Again, naïve:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/everybody-lies-how-google-reveals-darkest-secrets-seth-stephens-davidowitz

White lies yes, but what level of lying are you prepared to accept from government and elected officials? What are acceptable lies and what are bad lies or do you care?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 07:37:04 pm
White lies yes, but what level of lying are you prepared to accept from government and elected officials? What are acceptable lies and what are bad lies or do you care?

Not just white lies:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-06/uoma-urf061002.php#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,was%20a%20very%20surprising%20result.

We lie about everything. It's human.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 27, 2020, 08:24:58 pm
All of us lie. Again, naïve:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/everybody-lies-how-google-reveals-darkest-secrets-seth-stephens-davidowitz

Does that mean Trump's lies are ok?  I don't think so.

If you lied repeatedly in order to deceive your boss you'd be fired or at least in big trouble.  We're the boss of these politicians.  They take an oath to serve their country.  If you serve your own interests above that of the country when in public office representing constituents you're just a piece of crap.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 08:56:02 pm
Does that mean Trump's lies are ok? 

It must, since we all do it every single day.

Quote
If you lied repeatedly in order to deceive your boss you'd be fired or at least in big trouble.  We're the boss of these politicians.

First, I don't have a boss. I am the boss. People change the context of things to make themselves look good all the time. They shift blame to make things not their fault. Outside of Donald Trump, most political 'lies' fall into this category. If you actually possess the ability to be even a little bit introspective, you'll realize that you do the same things that you slander politicians for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 08:57:48 pm
Not just white lies:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-06/uoma-urf061002.php#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,was%20a%20very%20surprising%20result.

We lie about everything. It's human.

We don't lie about everything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 08:59:20 pm
We don't lie about everything.

I deal with people all day every day. We lie about everything. People lie about money. They make promises they don't keep. They steal. They commit various levels of fraud. I see it from people in all walks of life every single day.

At the same time, people are good, and generally want to do the right thing - politicians included.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 09:33:07 pm
I deal with people all day every day. We lie about everything. People lie about money. They make promises they don't keep. They steal. They commit various levels of fraud. I see it from people in all walks of life every single day.

At the same time, people are good, and generally want to do the right thing - politicians included.

It's all good then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 09:34:03 pm
It's all good then.

I think you're missing the point. Lying isn't to be commended, but politicians aren't special in their lies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 27, 2020, 09:38:02 pm
If you actually possess the ability to be even a little bit introspective, you'll realize that you do the same things that you slander politicians for.

I don't lie constantly to the people I represent to stay in a position of power.  As an elected federal MP it's a disservice to the country.  I would never sell my soul for that BS, thus i'll never try to run for MP for any of these parties.  Our legislature is a hierarchy, and you typically have to kiss butt while taking it in yours to get to a place of influence like cabinet, committees etc.  And if the PM is trying to intimidate you to do something unethical you either do it or he'll demote you.

Your customers are your boss, start lying to them constantly to try and make more sales and see how many don't come back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 27, 2020, 09:39:37 pm
I think you're missing the point. Lying isn't to be commended, but politicians aren't special in their lies.

I get what you're saying but we shouldn't legitimize it or ignore it.  People also go through red lights it doesn't make it right.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 09:42:22 pm
Your customers are your boss, start lying to them constantly to try and make more sales and see how many don't come back.

I do lie to them constantly. I make excuses, I spin, I omit. That's how customer service is done.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 11:54:21 am
I do lie to them constantly. I make excuses, I spin, I omit. That's how customer service is done.

Depending on one's values, lying has become permissible. T.v. advertising contains lies more often than not. Are we conditioned to excuse that or is it that we're resigned to believing there's nothing we can do about it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 28, 2020, 12:04:41 pm
There's no way to assess the amount of lying in a culture as far as I know.

What I do know is that verification techniques help establish trust and take lying out of the mix.  While you can't eliminate lying, at a certain point it causes transactions to become dysfunctional.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 12:13:38 pm
There's no way to assess the amount of lying in a culture as far as I know.

What I do know is that verification techniques help establish trust and take lying out of the mix.  While you can't eliminate lying, at a certain point it causes transactions to become dysfunctional.

A good place to witness that dysfunction you are suggesting is to go to a busy mall a week before Christmas. That's our society that allows the greedy sie of capitalism to lead us around by the nose.

I think China is discovering a better way and their is going to have to be exclusive of religious superstitions. That's poison in a 21st. century society.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 12:15:39 pm
I think you're missing the point. Lying isn't to be commended, but politicians aren't special in their lies.

You are saying we should ignore it, which has the same effect as commending it. Why not lie if there are no consequences? Integrity is for losers.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 28, 2020, 12:25:04 pm
A good place to witness that dysfunction you are suggesting is to go to a busy mall a week before Christmas. That's our society that allows the greedy sie of capitalism to lead us around by the nose.

I think China is discovering a better way and their is going to have to be exclusive of religious superstitions. That's poison in a 21st. century society.

I have been to such a mall.  I find them wonderful, especially at Christmas time. I don't think it has much to do with religion though. 

A better example of what I'm talking about, maybe, is money.  It was created to demarcate labour and facilitate exchange.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 28, 2020, 12:30:29 pm
You are saying we should ignore it, which has the same effect as commending it. Why not lie if there are no consequences? Integrity is for losers.

I'm saying that we have to be realistic in our expectations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 12:33:44 pm
I have been to such a mall.  I find them wonderful, especially at Christmas time. I don't think it has much to do with religion though. 

A better example of what I'm talking about, maybe, is money.  It was created to demarcate labour and facilitate exchange.

No, religion has been laid aside to make way for consumerism running rampant.
But religion is the root cause of that corruption and a society such as China with a billion and a half people to care for, can't allow that sort of corruption. The wealth has to be spread around to that billion and a half. Just the exact opposite of that which ails the US with it's huge income inequality.

There's little doubt in my mind which system will succeed. The only way for the system that competes against China to win is with bombs and bullets.

That's not an endorsement of communism, it's an endorsement of socially responsible capitalism. Somewhat similar to our intended direction in Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 28, 2020, 01:10:26 pm
I'm saying that we have to be realistic in our expectations.

White lies now and then are ok.  You can expect most people to lie now and then.  Politicians lie more than the vast majority of people in professions, and they aren't white lies, they seek to deceive constantly because many they have poor ethics.  Everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.  The vast majority are in it for themselves and for their own power-seeking first and foremost.

Many mechanics lie, but I found one that doesn't.   His rates are higher, but he saves me far more in the unnecessary work he tells me I don't need to do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 01:27:40 pm
White lies now and then are ok.  You can expect most people to lie now and then.  Politicians lie more than the vast majority of people in professions, and they aren't white lies, they seek to deceive constantly because many they have poor ethics.  Everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.  The vast majority are in it for themselves and for their own power-seeking first and foremost.

Many mechanics lie, but I found one that doesn't.   His rates are higher, but he saves me far more in the unnecessary work he tells me I don't need to do.

The democratic system forces politicians to lie. Yet it's still the best we've been able to come up with so far.

Or is it? Has China come up with something better that doesn't require politicians to lie?

Or maybe it's not of the utmost importance that politicians are forced to lie?

For one good example, many bright politicians are atheists but they have to lie about it and pretend they are Christians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 28, 2020, 01:58:58 pm
The democratic system forces politicians to lie. Yet it's still the best we've been able to come up with so far.

Or maybe it's not of the utmost importance that politicians are forced to lie?

For one good example, many bright politicians are atheists but they have to lie about it and pretend they are Christians.

It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

Quote
Or is it? Has China come up with something better that doesn't require politicians to lie?

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 02:03:13 pm
I'm saying that we have to be realistic in our expectations.

You are saying we should accept it with no consequences for doing it. It's the same as saying we might as well let people steal because they will do it anyway. Of course they will if there are no consequences.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 03:20:26 pm
It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.

China is actively practicing the only system that can possibly work for a nation that has to care for the needs of a billion and a half people. Remember that they have performed a true miracle by elevating hundreds of millions of their people up out of poverty. And maybe stop forgetting that Gorgeous!

the heads of dissenters must roll for the greater good.

Or at least they will roll if the dissenters don't fall into line with the system.

We're not there yet in Canada but America is close to being there. But then you know that already!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 05, 2020, 03:20:31 pm
UK investigating Bombardier. Could there be another DPA in the future.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/u-k-confirms-probe-of-suspected-bribery-at-bombardier-company-reports-us-192m-q3-profit-1.1518066
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 10, 2020, 11:46:47 am
It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.

We'll have to do a lot more work on this issue Gorgeous but for now I'll just state my position as being that China does no more than is necessary to put down foreign and outside influence than it deems necessary. And in China's case with a billion and a half mouths to feed, more is necessary.

There's no way China can tolerate what's going on in H.K. with US and UK interference to incite rioting and violence. But they are tolerating it for the short term at least.

China is going to be faced with huge challenges to it's sovereignty as it rises to the top. This will call for huge expansion of it's military defenses. The US is determined to translate that to the world as China's military aggression. It's just not so and a large part of the world know it's not so.

When will China make Cuba the elephant in the room, as a counter measure to US military expansionist measures in S.K?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 01:22:14 pm
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 10, 2020, 01:36:19 pm
We'll have to do a lot more work on this issue Gorgeous but for now I'll just state my position as being that China does no more than is necessary to put down foreign and outside influence than it deems necessary. And in China's case with a billion and a half mouths to feed, more is necessary.

China has squashed domestic influence by jailing and genociding Muslim minorities inside the country.  They don't do that to feed mouths.  They do it so the Han Chinese of the country have unquestioned power and control over everything.

China won't be any less ruthless to outsiders to the point that they can get away with it.  Don't underestimate their ruthlessness.  The CPC aren't the humanitarians you claim they are, and they won't stop projecting their power ruthlessly even after all mouths are fed.

The CPC are ultra-nationalists that make Trump look like Gandhi.  The difference between the CPC and the Nazis is Germany didn't have 1.4 billion people they could draft in a heartbeat.  China isn't stupid, they won't project military power recklessly, not until their economy has their tentacles wrapped around most of the international economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 10, 2020, 01:37:56 pm
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315

That seems unavoidable.  You give people money they're going to go to Walmart and buy Cheerios.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 10, 2020, 02:39:20 pm
I always find your posts worthwhile reading Gorgeous. You have something to say that deserves consideration, even though I may not agree with you all the time.
Stay the course! it's not often anyone dow on this sort of exchange of ideas.

China has squashed domestic influence by jailing and genociding Muslim minorities inside the country.  They don't do that to feed mouths.  They do it so the Han Chinese of the country have unquestioned power and control over everything.

I think you are painting with too broad a brush when you talk about Muslim minorities being persecuted in China. I would suggest that China reacts against individual Muslims to at least the same degree as do American law enforcement. The proof is in the updding of a closer examination of the facts, but the facts must not be biased and tarnished facts as related by some authority that claims China as the enemy.

Peronally, I justify persecution of China's foes within for the large part and I haven't been shy about saying so. That being with necessary consideration of human rights limitations. I truly believe that China has embarked on the only form of government that can carry a very large nation forward in this 21st. century. It is in stark contrast to the obvious failure of the US system of greedy capitalism.

Quote
China won't be any less ruthless to outsiders to the point that they can get away with it.  Don't underestimate their ruthlessness.  The CPC aren't the humanitarians you claim they are, and they won't stop projecting their power ruthlessly even after all mouths are fed.

China getting away with ruthlessness needs to be somehow connected to a reason for such behaviour. I reject any other reason that has been proposed by the US or any others. And so China's reaction to it's perceived enemies within needs to be tempered to the punishment suiting the crime. I haven't heard of any specific examples of it not being so, keeping in mind that treasonous activity by any individual or group of individuals is deserving of the death sentence. If an American has treasonous activities on their minds, they better not try it in China or N.K. either for that matter.

Quote
The CPC are ultra-nationalists that make Trump look like Gandhi.

In what sense? Can you expand on that assertion?
Can there be any doubt that China has performed an humanitarian miracle by elevating hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty? Can this somehow be discounted as just 'for the good of the state', as opposed to being for the good of the people?

 
Quote
The difference between the CPC and the Nazis is Germany didn't have 1.4 billion people they could draft in a heartbeat.


Quite true but needing a proper perspective due to the fact that you're comparing modern day China with Nazi Germany 80+ years ago. And manpower as in boots on the ground is not a major factor in a future world war. For example, the US destroyed and conquered Iraq with human losses that were insignificant in number.

Quote
China isn't stupid, they won't project military power recklessly, not until their economy has their tentacles wrapped around most of the international economy.

And so you're telling me that it's your concerns about China that 'might be', sometime in the future, as opposed to legitimate concerns about what China is now as an aggressor nation.

The world, excepting Nato countries, sees China as a peaceful and legitimate contender for the position of the world's  leading power. Taking into consideration the M.A.D. factor, China has no other possible course than it's current course of economic domination through peaceful means.

This does perhaps leave China open to accusations of economic warfare.
I'm ready with a defense of China in that respect too.

But really, I'm much more into exploring further the issue of China's human rights abuses as you envision that to be. My opening position is that China has been justified in it's behavour as pertains to human rights. both for it's own people as well as outsiders.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 10, 2020, 03:11:19 pm
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315

It’s a laudable goal, I suppose, but completely unrealistic, and possibly dangerous.

Encourage restaurants?  During a pandemic?  That’s just a bad idea all-around.  Of course service industries get hurt when going out might mean getting a deadly disease.  And we’ve seen Vancouver need to tighten up restrictions considerably.  There is going to be even less money spent on service industries now...  and for very god reason.


Wilber, how many times do you eat out now compared to before COVID? 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 04:39:47 pm
That seems unavoidable.  You give people money they're going to go to Walmart and buy Cheerios.

That's still money spent in Canada for goods that are probably made in Canada. I was thinking more on the line of buying foreign made goods on Amazon which does just about zero for the Canadian economy. I don't know how much of this is happening or if it is even an issue but it is something which government should be considering when they come up with these programs. Sending money to seniors who made so much a portion of their OAS is being clawed back was one example of poor oversight. They would have to know who is collecting OAS to send out the cheques in the first place, identifying people who are having it clawed back shouldn't have been that difficult.

Spending a few bucks so restaurants can maybe stay in business is a better idea than adding to Jeff Bezos billions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 10, 2020, 05:44:20 pm
That's still money spent in Canada for goods that are probably made in Canada. I was thinking more on the line of buying foreign made goods on Amazon which does just about zero for the Canadian economy. I don't know how much of this is happening or if it is even an issue but it is something which government should be considering when they come up with these programs. Sending money to seniors who made so much a portion of their OAS is being clawed back was one example of poor oversight. They would have to know who is collecting OAS to send out the cheques in the first place, identifying people who are having it clawed back shouldn't have been that difficult.

Spending a few bucks so restaurants can maybe stay in business is a better idea than adding to Jeff Bezos billions.

I don't understand how you'd control how people spend their money, other than giving them something else other than money, which wouldn't really work.  I get your sentiment I just don't see a solution.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 07:15:39 pm
I don't understand how you'd control how people spend their money, other than giving them something else other than money, which wouldn't really work.  I get your sentiment I just don't see a solution.

You can prioritize the distribution of funds differently.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 10, 2020, 08:00:37 pm
You can prioritize the distribution of funds differently.

If you're getting CERB, lost your job...  you're going to spend it the necessities. 

If you still have a job, you're saving a whole bunch of money not eating out and you're not getting COVID.  Maybe you spend your money on a watch, or some **** on Amazon.  But you still aren't going out, since you want to avoid COVID. 

Sorry...  I think that economist isn't dealing with a full deck if he thinks we should be encouraging people to do riskier things.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 08:15:41 pm
If you're getting CERB, lost your job...  you're going to spend it the necessities. 

If you still have a job, you're saving a whole bunch of money not eating out and you're not getting COVID.  Maybe you spend your money on a watch, or some **** on Amazon.  But you still aren't going out, since you want to avoid COVID. 

Sorry...  I think that economist isn't dealing with a full deck if he thinks we should be encouraging people to do riskier things.

I agree. As I said, I don't know if this is much of an issue but it is something to think about when you are allocating money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 10, 2020, 09:34:21 pm
I agree. As I said, I don't know if this is much of an issue but it is something to think about when you are allocating money.

I am still of the opinion that a taxable UBI would be the best thing...   enough with the dozens of different programs and subsidies that people get.  Make it universal and taxable.

Quote
There is no question that basic income is affordable. We could provide a guaranteed minimum income of $1,400/month to all working age adults with just a 3% GST increase. https://www.ubiworks.ca/howtopay
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 10:04:44 pm
I am still of the opinion that a taxable UBI would be the best thing...   enough with the dozens of different programs and subsidies that people get.  Make it universal and taxable.
I doubt that very much in the present economy. Tax revenues are in the tank and increasing rates will make it even worse.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 11, 2020, 06:20:17 pm
I doubt that very much in the present economy. Tax revenues are in the tank and increasing rates will make it even worse.

I'm not saying it will be implemented tomorrow...  but I am hopeful it will be a byproduct of this virus. 3% GST increase to have a UBI (if this is the true cost) is a pretty small price to pay.  It can be brought in gradually, with all the other programs that it would replace being canceled gradually.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 11, 2020, 06:37:14 pm
I'm not saying it will be implemented tomorrow...  but I am hopeful it will be a byproduct of this virus. 3% GST increase to have a UBI (if this is the true cost) is a pretty small price to pay.  It can be brought in gradually, with all the other programs that it would replace being canceled gradually.

Pre Covid, adding 3% to the GST would bring in maybe another 25 billion in revenues. If we install a UBI does that mean we get rid of EI and if so would 25  billion be enough to replace the revenues from EI premiums as well as provincial welfare payments? I guess we should be looking at it but I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 11, 2020, 07:25:24 pm
I'm not saying it will be implemented tomorrow...  but I am hopeful it will be a byproduct of this virus. 3% GST increase to have a UBI (if this is the true cost) is a pretty small price to pay.  It can be brought in gradually, with all the other programs that it would replace being canceled gradually.

What are the limitations for claiming UBI?

Should healthy working-age able-bodied people be able to claim UBI if they're not looking for work or refusing work?  Should people who lose their job simply be able to stay on UBI indefinitely with no questions asked?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 11, 2020, 07:57:43 pm
Should healthy working-age able-bodied people be able to claim UBI if they're not looking for work or refusing work?  Should people who lose their job simply be able to stay on UBI indefinitely with no questions asked?

If not, it wouldn't be universal, would it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 11, 2020, 08:33:25 pm
If not, it wouldn't be universal, would it?

Why would you give it to people who don't deserve it?  There has to be some kind of eligibility requirements.  It's not like you're going to give it to people visiting Canada on vacation.

We shouldn't provide income for healthy people who willfully choose not to contribute to society.  And we certainly shouldn't give them the same income as someone who is disabled or elderly.

Imagine how many lazy people would stay on CERB if it was indefinite and had no requirements.  Imagine how many college students would take a year off and just party or travel on the government dime, many even staying with their folks for free.  Great way to save money!  This isn't humanitarian at all, you'd be eroding these people psychologically by turning them into government dependents akin to children.  We need to treat people like responsible adults.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 11, 2020, 11:13:07 pm
Why would you give it to people who don't deserve it? 

It’s taxed back.  It’s universal so there doesn’t need to be a bureaucracy to determine when people need it...  are they qualified?  How long have they been on it?  The bureaucratic mess goes on.  With UBI, it’s all handled at tax time.


Quote
There has to be some kind of eligibility requirements.

Yes, there would be.  Resident and citizen of Canada.

Quote
It's not like you're going to give it to people visiting Canada on vacation.

No one has EVER said it would or should.   You clearly have never read a single thing about it. 

Quote
We shouldn't provide income for healthy people who willfully choose not to contribute to society.  And we certainly shouldn't give them the same income as someone who is disabled or elderly.

We already do...   and then we create an entire bureaucracy to manage it.  There’s no reason it couldn’t be scaled, say if you have dependents. 

Quote
Imagine how many lazy people would stay on CERB if it was indefinite and had no requirements.  Imagine how many college students would take a year off and just party or travel on the government dime, many even staying with their folks for free.  Great way to save money!  This isn't humanitarian at all, you'd be eroding these people psychologically by turning them into government dependents akin to children.  We need to treat people like responsible adults.

Imagine all the terrible things....     ::) ::)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 11:24:29 am
Why would you give it to people who don't deserve it?  There has to be some kind of eligibility requirements.  It's not like you're going to give it to people visiting Canada on vacation.

We shouldn't provide income for healthy people who willfully choose not to contribute to society.  And we certainly shouldn't give them the same income as someone who is disabled or elderly.

Imagine how many lazy people would stay on CERB if it was indefinite and had no requirements.  Imagine how many college students would take a year off and just party or travel on the government dime, many even staying with their folks for free.  Great way to save money!  This isn't humanitarian at all, you'd be eroding these people psychologically by turning them into government dependents akin to children.  We need to treat people like responsible adults.

Due to automation it's probably inevitable Gorgeous, but we still have a few years to consider it. Then it will all be in 'who' or what politicans make the decisions who is lazy, etc.

There are a lot more questions involved than what is indicated by the squad's callous spamming.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 12, 2020, 12:06:39 pm
There are a lot more questions involved than what is indicated by the squid's callous spamming.

Every tie you post something, you look like an idiot.  You’re posts are vapid nonsense that don’t contain anything other than memes.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 12:22:49 pm
Every tie you post something, you look like an idiot.  You’re posts are vapid nonsense that don’t contain anything other than memes.

That was a typo squid, it was meant to be the 'squad's callous spamming. You should fix your 'tie' typo too because it's just another attempt at a backhanded insult.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 12, 2020, 12:32:50 pm
That was a typo squid, it was meant to be the 'squad's callous spamming. You should fix your 'tie' typo too because it's just another attempt at a backhanded insult.

Now that's feeble even by your usual standard.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 12:44:00 pm
Now that's feeble even by your usual standard.

You're being very unfair Omni, about an honest mistake I made and then apologized for it and fixed it. Are you thinking that I'm suggesting you and squid and wilbur are spammers?

Let it go Omni before it makes you crazy.

And now back on topic please!! Why do you and the spammers have to always take Gorgeous's ideas to the extreme? He's a very sensible middle of the roader who understands politics a lot better than the ________ who argue his rational ideas. Of course a basic income would have to be administered fairly and without leftist bias!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 12, 2020, 02:03:30 pm
Due to automation it's probably inevitable Gorgeous, but we still have a few years to consider it. Then it will all be in 'who' or what politicans make the decisions who is lazy, etc.

There are a lot more questions involved than what is indicated by the squad's callous spamming.
Automation is different.  If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous.  I would have no problem paying for them to be re-trained, and paying for their income while they are retraining.

The kinds of people who propose these programs are the same types of people who allow their unemployed adult children to live for free in their basement while mom cooks them dinner and does their laundry.  They think they're being kind, but it isn't good for anyone.  We should not be incentivizing people to become dependents of the state.

We have quite a few adult infants on this forum, prone to tantrums/name-calling as well, so their feelings on this are no surprise to me.  They prefer themselves and other to remain infants.  A wonderful way to run a country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 02:19:59 pm
Automation is different.  If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous. I would have no problem paying for them to be re-trained, and paying for their income while they are retraining.

Well that's very liberal of you! Do you think that could become an accepted talking point for the Conservative party?
I think it might have to be soon but I can't quite imagine how Alberta's Cons could ever go there? You see the problem?

So the proof is going to be in the pudding for anybody that isn't stuck in Conservative never-never land. Here's a hypothetical for you:

A person who was a machinist becomes unemployed and he turns to EI. He is offered a job as a labourer at half the rate of pay ($20) as he was earning and he refuses the job. You get the picture, you're too clever not to. Does that guy become one of your lazies?

Don't hang strictly on the hypothetical, that doesn't get us anywhere. Rather, consider variations to the general theme. So I'm suggesting that will be the point at which the Cons and the Libs could part ways

Quote
The kinds of people who propose these programs are the same types of people who allow their unemployed adult children to live for free in their basement while mom cooks them dinner and does their laundry.  They think they're being kind, but it isn't good for anyone.  We should not be incentivizing people to become dependents of the state.

Each case will be different and therefore have variables and qualifications to consider. Here's on for you:

The kid doesn't need much money and he's getting social assistance, and that's paying better than the parttime job at MacD's flipping hamburgers. Oh, and his twin brother that lives in the same basement room has a mental illness problem.

Who sorts all this **** out Gorgeous, the social worker or the government?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 12, 2020, 03:03:45 pm
Here's a hypothetical for you:

A person who was a machinist becomes unemployed and he turns to EI. He is offered a job as a labourer at half the rate of pay ($20) as he was earning and he refuses the job. You get the picture, you're too clever not to. Does that guy become one of your lazies?

I would say there could be a limited amount of time for the machinist to refuse jobs not in his field while not on EI.  2 or 3 months, or whenever the EI claim runs out?  I dunno.  After that limited period is over the machinist should then be expected to accept whatever jobs are available.  If the machinist were to stay on government income indefinitely that would mean many of the people who used to make good money working in manufacturing would now be stuck on government benefits.  This is terrible for the economy, both GDP and tax revenue/spending, and bad psychologically for the unemployed.

Think of it this way: Government always has only a certain amount of money budgeted to spend on social programs.  It would be far better to spend that money on the people who really need it, such as the homeless, poor communities/first nations, the sick etc than to give it to healthy people able to work but refuse.

Quote
Each case will be different and therefore have variables and qualifications to consider. Here's on for you:

The kid doesn't need much money and he's getting social assistance, and that's paying better than the parttime job at MacD's flipping hamburgers. Oh, and his twin brother that lives in the same basement room has a mental illness problem.
As I said, if a person is healthy but unwilling to work when there are jobs available they should not expect an income from the government after transition benefits like EI run out.  The mentally ill brother is a different case, if they're disabled to the point where they can't work they should be entitled to disability income.

Quote
Who sorts all this **** out Gorgeous, the social worker or the government?

Those are 2 very different jobs.  Entitlement to government benefits should be determined by government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 12, 2020, 03:16:05 pm
If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous. 
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them. It's ridiculously hypocritical that any society or economy that demands people carry their own weight should also rely on $56 billion (for 2017 in Canada alone) worth of free labour.

https://volunteer.ca/vdemo/Campaigns_DOCS/Value%20of%20Volunteering%20in%20Canada%20Conf%20Board%20Final%20Report%20EN.pdf

Fire up the printing presses and screw the debt-cult's kool-aid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 03:19:27 pm
I would say there could be a limited amount of time for the machinist to refuse jobs not in his field while not on EI.  2 or 3 months, or whenever the EI claim runs out?  I dunno.  After that limited period is over the machinist should then be expected to accept whatever jobs are available.  If the machinist were to stay on government income indefinitely that would mean many of the people who used to make good money working in manufacturing would now be stuck on government benefits.  This is terrible for the economy, both GDP and tax revenue/spending, and bad psychologically for the unemployed.

Think of it this way: Government always has only a certain amount of money budgeted to spend on social programs.  It would be far better to spend that money on the people who really need it, such as the homeless, poor communities/first nations, the sick etc than to give it to healthy people able to work but refuse.
As I said, if a person is healthy but unwilling to work when there are jobs available they should not expect an income from the government after transition benefits like EI run out.  The mentally ill brother is a different case, if they're disabled to the point where they can't work they should be entitled to disability income.

Those are 2 very different jobs.  Entitlement to government benefits should be determined by government.

All of which is true enough Gorgeous, but I think you're taking on an attitude of attempting to win a debate, as opposed to thinking it all through completely. That's the reason why you're hanging on the specifics rather than accept the bigger picture.

So the big picture is:

There aren't enough jobs to go around anymore.
and
Speaking of the US where the situation has advanced further along, there is enough money to make unemployment work if the very wealthy are taxed out of a portion of their billions. Or more appropriately, the very wealthy are restricted enough on their profit making that they never do get to owning billions.

So there we have it for the reality of the 21st. century, and it's coming soon. How soon? Well, it's already here in a smaller way.

And fwiw, the machinist is going to say fk them, I'm not going to dig a ditch. Then vote for the party that says he doesn't have to.

Can a country work within the capitalist system in which the wealth is spread around and restraints can be placed on one's ability to earn billions? Say, in the US where 3 top billionaires earn as much as 50% of the country's people? How Conservative would one have to be to accept that??
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 03:23:31 pm
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them. It's ridiculously hypocritical that any society or economy that demands people carry their own weight should also rely on $56 billion (for 2017 in Canada alone) worth of free labour.

https://volunteer.ca/vdemo/Campaigns_DOCS/Value%20of%20Volunteering%20in%20Canada%20Conf%20Board%20Final%20Report%20EN.pdf

Fire up the printing presses and screw the debt-cult's kool-aid.

You can figure this stuff out too eyeball, but you're tying your hands behind your back when you refer to people as 'entitled slack-assed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 12, 2020, 05:09:34 pm
All of which is true enough Gorgeous, but I think you're taking on an attitude of attempting to win a debate, as opposed to thinking it all through completely. That's the reason why you're hanging on the specifics rather than accept the bigger picture.

So the big picture is:

There aren't enough jobs to go around anymore.
and
Speaking of the US where the situation has advanced further along, there is enough money to make unemployment work if the very wealthy are taxed out of a portion of their billions. Or more appropriately, the very wealthy are restricted enough on their profit making that they never do get to owning billions.

So there we have it for the reality of the 21st. century, and it's coming soon. How soon? Well, it's already here in a smaller way.

And fwiw, the machinist is going to say fk them, I'm not going to dig a ditch. Then vote for the party that says he doesn't have to.

Can a country work within the capitalist system in which the wealth is spread around and restraints can be placed on one's ability to earn billions? Say, in the US where 3 top billionaires earn as much as 50% of the country's people? How Conservative would one have to be to accept that??

You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away.  People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 05:50:55 pm
You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away. People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

It sure did happen! Immediately following the industrial revolution and again it's happening in the age of electronics and the internet. You need to peruse some statistics on the numbers of people working parttime jobs in MacD's and maybe some research on how many Americans are on food stamps. So your argument is wrong. But in fairness, only wrong to some degree on which we aren't in agreement because we haven't talked on specifics yet.




Quote
Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

All very true! All of those issues need to be considered.

Quote
People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.

Yes, of course on the unintended consequences! But building a shelter and searching for food, as you've mentioned, aren't necessary anymore.

For the sake of it being interesting, tell me what the etc. is?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 12, 2020, 06:41:33 pm
...you're tying your hands behind your back when you refer to people as 'entitled slack-assed.
I didn't. I referred to a society - an aggregate of people. Volunteers are a group within that aggregate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 07:05:38 pm
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them.

Yeah ya did and that's because you think that way.

Quote
an aggregate of people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 12, 2020, 08:35:35 pm
Yeah ya did and that's because you think that way.
Yes, that benefitting from the free labour of others is as ridiculous as what Graham said.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 13, 2020, 11:34:38 am
Yes, that benefitting from the free labour of others is as ridiculous as what Graham said.

'free' labour is a new twist on the topic?
The bad feelings of rightists over allowing people to cut back on their working for a living has got to stop. There's just no way capitalism with no restrictions on big business profit can work for the millions. The way forward has to be in finding ways to spread the wealth at least enough for everyone to have the essentials in life.

Cuba actually does that already because they were forced into doing that which would allow them to merely survive. And now an objective look at how the people of Cuba have succeeded is instructive. Housing and high quality healthcare put an entirely different light on poverty!

They did it with very limited resources so just imagine what countries rich in resources can do!

Yes, we'll miss capitalism and the opportunity to work hard to better oneself, but new ways must be found.

A country doesn't get rich from the backbreaking work of it's workers anymore. Look at that harvester being driven by one man, that is producing enough food for thousands. A country gets rich off of  the labouring of it's machines.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 19, 2020, 02:30:14 pm
You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away.  People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.

Why assume people will choose to do nothing if they don't have to work to survive as opposed to taking up hobbies, getting an education or doing jobs they actually want to do?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on November 19, 2020, 02:48:21 pm
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 19, 2020, 03:10:42 pm
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.

If I didn't have to work for a living I would probably be doing something useless like being a full time parent whereas now I pay someone a good chunk of my income to look after my kid so i can make money to pay them to look after my kid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 19, 2020, 03:46:09 pm
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.

I'm old enough to have that free time thing now too and I have two bikes I ride, one has pedals, the other a 750 cc two stroke, and I like to practice on my Larravee 6 string. My work took my to the far corners of the planet so I sometimes now sit in my living room looking at carvings and various other craft pieces and wonder,"now where the hell did I pick that up". 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 19, 2020, 07:03:09 pm
Why assume people will choose to do nothing if they don't have to work to survive as opposed to taking up hobbies, getting an education or doing jobs they actually want to do?

Some people will do healthy things and some people with do unhealthy things with their time.  If those people are employed they're not able to sit around and do nothing.

There's downsides to working and to not working.  IMO the downsides to not working for society as a whole should not be underestimated.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 09:17:23 am
Some people will do healthy things and some people with do unhealthy things with their time. If those people are employed they're not able to sit around and do nothing.

There's downsides to working and to not working.  IMO the downsides to not working for society as a whole should not be underestimated.

Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 09:32:32 am
Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.

Sometimes stuff just needs to get done and someone has to do it.

But I guess we can just hire TFW’s to do the crappiest essential jobs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 10:21:40 am
Sometimes stuff just needs to get done and someone has to do it.

But I guess we can just hire TFW’s to do the crappiest essential jobs.

Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 11:34:09 am
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

A UBI needs to come from somewhere and the very wealthy are the only ones with the ability to pay for it.  In the US, it shouldn't be a problem finding the money. Three of the top billionaires make as much as the bottom 50% of their people.

Automation has eliminated probably about half the jobs that existed in the 50's and consequently, half the people are unemployed.

Unemployed in the sense that they are working at part time jobs, two or more part time jobs, or not working and earning money at all.

Unemployment figures have been a joke for many years. And of course there are enough people to do any work that needs doing. But finding somebody to do them in the land of the gun isn't as easy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 11:52:29 am
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors, garbage collectors, the people who work in food processing plants and a thousand other things. so we are the masters throwing the scraps. This idea that we can all just collect a salary and just do the jobs that appeal to us is pie in the sky nonsense. There may be a case for an income supplement but there is none for an income replacement. We already have that with EI, disability pensions and welfare.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 12:27:36 pm
The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors,.....................

The point is, you seem to nearly always miss the point. Saying nothing is better than making up **** that nobody is confused over.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 01:17:38 pm
Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.

Nobody is forced to do anything.  If you don't like the masters scraps then open your own business and be your own master.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:24:35 pm
The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors, garbage collectors, the people who work in food processing plants and a thousand other things. so we are the masters throwing the scraps. This idea that we can all just collect a salary and just do the jobs that appeal to us is pie in the sky nonsense. There may be a case for an income supplement but there is none for an income replacement. We already have that with EI, disability pensions and welfare.

Literally no one is proposing an income replacement, so if that's what your objections are based on, then they aren't based on anything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:26:33 pm
Nobody is forced to do anything.  If you don't like the masters scraps then open your own business and be your own master.

Oh for sure dude, because starting a businesses is easy and cheap and a surefire license to print money. That's why so many businesses *checks notes* fail within the first 3 to 5 years.

But here's the thing: more people would be willing and able to take the risk of starting their own businesses if they were guaranteed an income supplement to cushion them should they fail.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 01:28:20 pm
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

I see what you're saying but this gets tricky because of the market for wages which works off supply and demand of the workforce.  If the government starts subsidizing lower wage jobs it gives companies more of an excuse to keep those wages low and passes it onto the taxpayer.

People deserve a liveable wage but we also need to make sure it doesn't have unintended consequences in other areas of the market and becomes counterproductive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:30:32 pm
I see what you're saying but this gets tricky because of the market for wages which works off supply and demand of the workforce.  If the government starts subsidizing lower wage jobs it gives companies more of an excuse to keep those wages low and passes it onto the taxpayer.

People deserve a liveable wage but we also need to make sure it doesn't have unintended consequences in other areas of the market and becomes counterproductive.

On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 01:39:18 pm
Quote from: Black Dog link=topic=919.msg69555#msg69555 date=1605900 393
Oh for sure dude, because starting a businesses is easy and cheap and a surefire license to print money. That's why so many businesses *checks notes* fail within the first 3 to 5 years.

But here's the thing: more people would be willing and able to take the risk of starting their own businesses if they were guaranteed an income supplement to cushion them should they fail.

Nothing ventured nothing gained.  If you don't want the risk then there's zero-risk wage jobs everywhere waiting for you.

Why do you need a guaranteed income supplement if your business fails?  Just go apply for a job.  You can also choose to buy into income protection insurance as a self-employed person. I also know employers can claim certain EI benefits like sickness.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 01:40:32 pm
On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.

Not sure why if the supplement is universal. It's not like we never see cases of companies raising their prices when products are subsidized by government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 01:41:59 pm
On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.

Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 01:42:45 pm
I'd need to look at data for these things with other countries who have tried it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:49:53 pm
Nothing ventured nothing gained.  If you don't want the risk then there's zero-risk wage jobs everywhere waiting for you.

Don't want to risk everything, just get a job says guy who thinks people aren't being forced into wage slavery.

Quote
Why do you need a guaranteed income supplement if your business fails? Just go apply for a job.  You can also choose to buy into income protection insurance as a self-employed person. I also know employers can claim certain EI benefits like sickness.
Quote

So you don't have to worry about going bankrupt and losing everything while you look for a job?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:51:01 pm
Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.

Except there's little evidence higher wages lead to higher prices.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 01:52:16 pm
When collective bargaining was destroyed by the socalled 'right to work' zones, as well as other pressures from the wealthy, they should have realized that sooner or later a UBI would be needed to replace it.

The UBI doesn't need to be called as such, it can be called unemployment insurance, welfare, or social assistance. And now the jobs have been automated into extinction and the wealthy will have to be taxed so those bills can be paid to the unemployed.

The best hope for the very wealthy keeping all their money is found in the US where the people have been brainwashed into thinking it's all their money and the poor are trying to steal their money. It's not working anymore and hence we see their attempts at promoting a fascist regime.

Biden doesn't really intend on making it any better! What can be said about a country that can't even provide quality healthcare for all it's people?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:56:19 pm
Not sure why if the supplement is universal. It's not like we never see cases of companies raising their prices when products are subsidized by government.

If we're talking about low wage **** jobs, then obviously employers would need to raise wages in order to compete with the income supplement.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 02:02:01 pm
America's brand of capitalism has failed. And Canada's brand of capitalism is being threatened by that influence from south of the border.

But socially responsible capitalism can work and is working in the world's leading capitalist countries. New laws can be enacted to make it work. That's socialism within a capitalist system.

Yet still, as populations get larger and larger, it seems that China has now adopted the only system that can really work going forward in the 21st. century.

China will fine tune it, regardless of the outside interference!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 02:05:42 pm
America's brand of capitalism has failed. And Canada's brand of capitalism is being threatened by that influence from south of the border.

But socially responsible capitalism can work and is working in the world's leading capitalist countries. New laws can be enacted to make it work. That's socialism within a capitalist system.

Yet still, as populations get larger and larger, it seems that China has now adopted the only system that can really work going forward in the 21st. century.

China will fine tune it, regardless of the outside interference!

fascism?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 02:08:21 pm
If we're talking about low wage **** jobs, then obviously employers would need to raise wages in order to compete with the income supplement.

Not if government is going to do it for them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 02:15:40 pm
Not if government is going to do it for them.

Why would anyone take a shitty job with **** wages if they could make almost as much just doing nothing?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 20, 2020, 02:20:56 pm
Why would anyone take a shitty job with **** wages if they could make almost as much just doing nothing?

People working for minimum wage do that now though...   Lots of people could do just as well on welfare but don’t. They go to work for crappy wages....   gaining work experience to better themselves, making barely enough to eat and pay rent, and, if they’re lucky, saving some coin.   

So I don’t think the argument put forward by Wilber and Graham that if you give people enough money to barely stay alive that they will just not bother working holds any weight whatsoever. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 02:22:43 pm
Why would anyone take a shitty job with **** wages if they could make almost as much just doing nothing?

We already have too many people who won't take jobs that involve hard work for good wages. Most of the dairy farmers around here have resorted to TFW's because they can't get locals to do the work even though they are paying $20hr to start.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 20, 2020, 02:23:27 pm
I'd need to look at data for these things with other countries who have tried it.

You haven’t needed to look at any data so far to form an opinion that it’s a terrible idea....  why start now?


Quote
Mincome in Manitoba   Edit
A similar field experiment of the Canadian Guaranteed Annual Income (GAI), known as Mincome, took place in Dauphin, Manitoba between 1974 and 1979. According to a research into the effects of Mincome on population health, conducted by a University of Manitoba researcher Evelyn Forget in 2011, the experiment has resulted in significant reduction in hospitalization, specifically in case of mental health diagnoses.[3] Among all the people, only two key groups were found to be discouraged from working by the Mincome project – new mothers and teenaged boys, who, instead of entering the workforce at an early age, decided to study until grade 12, increasing the proportion of students who graduate high school.[4]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 02:32:25 pm
fascism?

Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 02:41:03 pm
Take a closer look at H.K. That's US style greedy capitalism trying to continue to exist within China's system of attempting to provide for all of the country's people.

The protests are even supported by the US and Britain!

H.K. is a capitalist paradise, I've been there and I've seen it and it rivaled New York. Now it just can't work within a system that demands the poor be cared for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 20, 2020, 03:00:33 pm
Take a closer look at H.K. That's US style greedy capitalism trying to continue to exist within China's system of attempting to provide for all of the country's people.

The protests are even supported by the US and Britain!

H.K. is a capitalist paradise, I've been there and I've seen it and it rivaled New York. Now it just can't work within a system that demands the poor be cared for.

The Hong Kong protest are supported by Canada.  And that’s a good thing.  **** the commies and their atrocities against their own people.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china/report-china/

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 03:25:20 pm
Monty obviously hasn't been to Shanghai and Beijing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 20, 2020, 04:17:03 pm
Monty obviously hasn't been to Shanghai and Beijing.

Maybe never left Vancouver Island.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:26:03 pm
People working for minimum wage do that now though...   Lots of people could do just as well on welfare but don’t. They go to work for crappy wages....   gaining work experience to better themselves, making barely enough to eat and pay rent, and, if they’re lucky, saving some coin.   

So I don’t think the argument put forward by Wilber and Graham that if you give people enough money to barely stay alive that they will just not bother working holds any weight whatsoever.

The difference is all of those programs are means tested to some degree; universal basic income or whatever you wnat to call it would not be.


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:26:50 pm
We already have too many people who won't take jobs that involve hard work for good wages. Most of the dairy farmers around here have resorted to TFW's because they can't get locals to do the work even though they are paying $20hr to start.

Anecdotes aren't evidence!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:30:02 pm
Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth.

Capitalism under a militaristic, chauvinistic, nationalist authoritarian kleptocratic power structure bent on expanding its sphere of influence beyond its borders? It certainly fits the bill of a fascist state closer than most others today.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:32:18 pm
Take a closer look at H.K. That's US style greedy capitalism trying to continue to exist within China's system of attempting to provide for all of the country's people.

Well, except the all the people they are putting in concentration camps or just disappearing for being the wrong ethnicity/religion or for criticizing the government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 20, 2020, 04:46:09 pm
The difference is all of those programs are means tested to some degree; universal basic income or whatever you wnat to call it would not be.

Yeah, I get it...  above a certain level, it can simply be taxed back as people reach certain incomes...  Eliminates a massive amount of government bureaucracy administering literally dozens of kinds of these programs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 05:00:00 pm
Anecdotes aren't evidence!
Not anecdotes, these are people I know.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 20, 2020, 05:00:52 pm
Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.
Not according to modern monetary theory where the government creates money when stimulus is required and raise taxes when inflationary pressures build.  The main objection appears to be that politicians will fail to raise taxes when required.  The solution is to not leave too much of the power to resist doing so in their hands.  Make it more a function of the central bank. I.E. redistribute power instead of wealth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 05:03:29 pm
Not according to modern monetary theory where the government creates money when stimulus is required and raise taxes when inflationary pressures build.  The main objection appears to be that politicians will fail to raise taxes when required.  The solution is to not leave too much of the power to resist doing so in their hands.  Make it more a function of the central bank. I.E. redistribute power instead of wealth.
Trudeau had planned to add almost 100 billion to the debt by 2024 before Covid was a thing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 20, 2020, 05:09:45 pm
You haven’t needed to look at any data so far to form an opinion that it’s a terrible idea....  why start now?

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots

Here's another basic income experiment.

Quote
A Canadian charity recently conducted a bold social experiment: giving people experiencing homelessness a one-time cash infusion of $7,500.

According to the researchers, the results were "beautifully surprising."

Those who were given the cash largely spent the money on food, rent, and transportation and moved into stable housing faster over the course of the year, according to the findings. Spending on "temptation goods," such as drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol declined by 39%, on average. And recipients were able to keep an average of $1,000 in savings, according to Canadian news outlet CBC.

The cash payment saved the shelter system $8,100 per person over the course of the year, a total savings of $405,000.

https://www.businessinsider.com/canadian-basic-income-experiment-gives-homeless-people-cash-2020-10
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 20, 2020, 07:49:34 pm
Moodys again affirms Canada’s AAA rating https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/moody-s-affirms-canada-s-aaa-rating-citing-economic-strength-1.1525160
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 09:00:32 pm
Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

Communism is an economic system.  China no longer has a communist economic system, and it has vast income inequality.  China is fascist, look up the characteristics of fascism.

Quote
The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Communism didn't do that at all, it only happened when they abandoned communism.  They have a totalitarian government, which is not exclusive to communism.

Quote
Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth

As I said, China isn't communist, their wealth isn't at all spread evenly, and China has high income inequality about equally high as the USA.  Canada has better income equality than China:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 09:12:53 pm
Except there's little evidence higher wages lead to higher prices.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage-push-inflation.asp

"Economists track wages closely because of their wage push inflation effects. Wage push inflation has an inflationary spiral effect that occurs when wages are increased and businesses must — to pay the higher wages — charge more for their products and/or services. Additionally, any wage increase that occurs will increase the money supply of consumers. With a higher money supply, consumers have more spending power, so the demand for goods increases. An increase in demand for goods then increases the price of goods in the broader market. Companies charge more for their goods to pay higher wages, and the higher wages also increase the price of goods in the broader market."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 20, 2020, 11:35:38 pm
Trudeau had planned to add almost 100 billion to the debt by 2024 before Covid was a thing.
Like I said lets try redistributing a little power and see what happens.  I've been thinking the idea of building back better should include reforming a good chunk of how we govern ourselves.  Of all the **** poor things underscored in the wake of COVID that have left us exposed and vulnerable I'd say governance tops the list.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 11:46:05 pm
Like I said lets try redistributing a little power and see what happens.  I've been thinking the idea of building back better should include reforming a good chunk of how we govern ourselves.  Of all the **** poor things underscored in the wake of COVID that have left us exposed and vulnerable I'd say governance tops the list.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnPsGcsUUAcSzse?format=jpg&name=900x900)


I agree, let's start by not having a government where 39% of the votes gets a government a majority to rule all Canadians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 20, 2020, 11:47:49 pm
Just like George Dubya...never let a good crisis go to waste!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 21, 2020, 11:28:24 am
If we're going to build back better then maybe it's time to have a long hard look at China's success under their communist system that includes capitalism to flourish. Even though Canada isn't in a great rush with a need for that quite yet.

World populations are exploding and US style wars of aggression are our future as other countries try to corner the economic markets for their own people. China is showing us a way forward by PEACEFUL means.

China's nuclear weapons are allowing them to do that unimpeded by the US so far and there's no reason to think that China won't become even stronger in their military defensive measures they're taking to stop US aggression.

There are many countries that have signed on with China for a more peaceful and prosperous world. They will build back better!

Know Thy Enemy! Are Canadians ready?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 21, 2020, 01:41:15 pm



I agree, let's start by not having a government where 39% of the votes gets a government a majority to rule all Canadians.

Agreed

Someone has to form a government but lets not give all the power to a party that gets 39% of the vote.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 21, 2020, 01:50:53 pm
If we're going to build back better then maybe it's time to have a long hard look at China's success under their communist system that includes capitalism to flourish.

China is showing us a way forward by PEACEFUL means.

There are many countries that have signed on with China for a more peaceful and prosperous world. They will build back better!

the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) agreement just signed: speaking of what the lameDuckTrump can't do about China's trade influence...

(https://i.imgur.com/vTRPtXV.png)

the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) spans 15 countries and 2.2 billion people, or nearly 30% of the world's population - their combined GDP totals roughly $26 trillion and they account for nearly 28% of global trade based on 2019 data...  China, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Cambodia, Myanmar (Burma), Laos
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 21, 2020, 01:55:04 pm
China, yabut...

(https://i.imgur.com/VtFbdgc.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 21, 2020, 02:22:16 pm
Waldo, the Cons, just the same as Trump, will sell their souls for the sake of making more money. It's just that in this case they're pretending they're not in order to appear to be politically correct. And of course we know that the Cons' souls belong to big business.

There will be a lot of resistance to promoting friendly relations with China but it's going to happen. The US has nothing to offer anymore now and Biden isn't going to be looking to improve trade relations with Canada. The D's are worse than their R's on that.

The world is ready to align with China and the US has made it so with their alienating many nations that only want peace and fair trade relations for their people. Trump couldn't have come at a better time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 21, 2020, 03:59:30 pm
Waldo, the Cons, just the same as Trump, will sell their souls for the sake of making more money. It's just that in this case they're pretending they're not in order to appear to be politically correct. And of course we know that the Cons' souls belong to big business.

There will be a lot of resistance to promoting friendly relations with China but it's going to happen. The US has nothing to offer anymore now and Biden isn't going to be looking to improve trade relations with Canada. The D's are worse than their R's on that.

The world is ready to align with China and the US has made it so with their alienating many nations that only want peace and fair trade relations for their people. Trump couldn't have come at a better time.

Trump couldn't have been kicked out of the WH at a better time. Perhaps having someone take his place who is competent enough to understand what a crisis a pandemic, such as Covid 19 is, and what a detriment to our economy (for one thing) actually is, then there may be some new light at the end of the tunnel.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 21, 2020, 05:24:12 pm
Agreed

Someone has to form a government but lets not give all the power to a party that gets 39% of the vote.

Well the Liberals said 2015 was going to be the last FPTP election.  But then they won a majority and thought "oh crap, if we change the system then our 39% support won't give us a majority anymore so scrap that idea!".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 21, 2020, 05:30:48 pm
Waldo, the Cons, just the same as Trump, will sell their souls for the sake of making more money.

Yes just like the Cons, Liberals, Republicans, Democrats, and everyone else.

George Bush Sr. and Mulroney negotiated NAFTA and Clinton and Chretien signed it into law.  Same **** different sandwich.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 21, 2020, 05:55:02 pm
Well the Liberals said 2015 was going to be the last FPTP election.  But then they won a majority and thought "oh crap, if we change the system then our 39% support won't give us a majority anymore so scrap that idea!".

Yup. He didn't even give people a choice.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 12:49:03 am
Yup. He didn't even give people a choice.

here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 08:42:09 am
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!

Bullshit. If you look at US News list of ten best countries to live in, Canada is the only one without some form of PR.

If you look at any list of the best countries to live in, they are dominated by countries that have some form of PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 09:52:47 am
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesn’t mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isn’t about democracy, it’s about power and the party in power isn’t going to allow a system that will reduce that power.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 11:44:16 am
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring...
The cheesy little smiley Waldo placed at the end of his 'tirade' against the people they most rely on said it all. Talk about lazy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 12:00:46 pm
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!

PR was only devised by losers asking the people to make them winners. And why change when Canada leads the world in 'quality of life' for it's people.

Better to let the pendulum swing the way it does now between the Libs and the Cons. The voting public make the small corrections required in time to prevent severe damage.

And fwiw, there really isn't any Conservative agenda anymore. Only their very moderated policies have any chance of being adopted.

I can't even think of one of their proposals that could stir up any interest!

And none of the Con supporters seem to be able to propose anything? Even Gorgeous's signature is lost to them because of a moderated approach to his issue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 22, 2020, 12:41:00 pm
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesn’t mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isn’t about democracy, it’s about power and the party in power isn’t going to allow a system that will reduce that power.

To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 12:59:47 pm
To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.

What a monstrous, ingenuous cop out, using other parties as an excuse to break a promise that helped give you a majority.

At least put it to the people. If you are just going to tell people what kind of electoral system they are going to have, why have them vote at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 22, 2020, 01:03:53 pm
At least put it to the people.

Why bother having representatives at all?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 01:13:11 pm
Why bother having representatives at all?

Why have voters at all? A big piece of JT's platform in 2015 was PR. He didn't mean a word of it.

We have had PR referendums on the subject from both Liberal and NDP governments. Don't tell me Trudeau couldn't have done the same.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 22, 2020, 02:44:25 pm
Why have voters at all? A big piece of JT's platform in 2015 was PR.

Right, and, it didn't work out. That happens in politics. If you're going to move forward on some kind of reform, I'd say you really need buy in from the stakeholders. It's also worth noting that it's hard to have a referendum on something that you're unable to come to any kind of agreement on. Look at the success rate for the provincial examples you cited.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 02:49:38 pm
Right, and, it didn't work out. That happens in politics. If you're going to move forward on some kind of reform, I'd say you really need buy in from the stakeholders. It's also worth noting that it's hard to have a referendum on something that you're unable to come to any kind of agreement on. Look at the success rate for the provincial examples you cited.

What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:02:49 pm
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.

Just as long as you keep failing to criticize the Liberals for anything specific wilbur, you're not serving any political purpose on this board for your Cons. Just more spamming and baying at the moon!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 03:04:24 pm
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.
In Canada we seem to think the horse is more important than the wagon and contents that horse is pulling.  I'm guessing most of our democratic peers that succeeded in moving beyond FPTP did so by simply establishing the need to change and then left it up to experts instead of politicians to figure out how.

Clearly any question about switching should have a follow up question about whether we leave how up to politicians or experts.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:14:30 pm
In Canada we seem to think the horse is more important than the wagon and contents that horse is pulling.  I'm guessing most of our democratic peers that succeeded in moving beyond FPTP did so by simply establishing the need to change and then left it up to experts instead of politicians to figure out how.

Clearly any question about switching should have a follow up question about whether we leave how up to politicians or experts.

New Zealand switched to PR through a referendum. Clearly they have a higher opinion of their ability to rule themselves than Canadians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:15:38 pm
Just as long as you keep failing to criticize the Liberals for anything specific wilbur, you're not serving any political purpose on this board for your Cons. Just more spamming and baying at the moon!

I'm criticizing Trudeau for not following through on a commitment he had made to those who voted for his party.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 03:19:51 pm
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesn’t mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isn’t about democracy, it’s about power and the party in power isn’t going to allow a system that will reduce that power.

member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:22:33 pm
I'm criticizing Trudeau for not following through on a commitment he had made to those who voted for his party.

Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:23:25 pm
member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D
s

Of course you can find examples where PR has been fractious but you can find many more where it has been a success.  Canada is the only country on the world'e best ten list that is solely FPTP. In fact FPTP systems are a minority among developed countries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:24:59 pm
Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.

When did PR become a "Con" agenda or PR become "facist"?  Give me a break.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:26:23 pm
Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.

Good job! Do you think it's going to help? LOL
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:28:37 pm
Good job! Do you think it's going to help? LOL

Quoting yourself now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:33:25 pm
Quoting yourself now.

It's my mistake; it was meant to quote waldo. But I don't regret it when it causes some pleasure for you at least. Regardless, you need to get over your bad feelings and come to the conclusion that you're going to have to spend more time thinking before you allow your gums to start flapping.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 03:34:22 pm
New Zealand switched to PR through a referendum. Clearly they have a higher opinion of their ability to rule themselves than Canadians.
Their politicians apparently also had a higher regard for their constituents than our's have towards us.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:35:29 pm
It's my mistake; it was meant to quote waldo. But I don't regret it when it causes some pleasure for you at least. Regardless, you need to get over your bad feelings and come to the conclusion that you're going to have to spend more time thinking before you allow your gums to start flapping.

Meh. Keep the insults coming Monty, they say a lot more about you than they do me.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:38:42 pm
Their politicians apparently also had a higher regard for their constituents than our's have towards us.

Apparently. Real leaders can still survive nicely with PR. Witness Merkel in Germany and Ardern in NZ who managed a majority in its recent election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 03:55:08 pm
member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D

Apparently. Real leaders can still survive nicely with PR. Witness Merkel in Germany and Ardern in NZ who managed a majority in their recent election.

c'mon member wilber - you ignoring your bigTimeFail concerning Australia won't make it go away!

and now you do it again with Germany & New Zealand... where both countries use a form of PR - Mixed Member Proportional (MMP). The forms of PR are many - you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail. Since you continue to reference countries without providing any detail, the waldo asks if you'll do some research and come back and advise on the Germany/New Zealand % splits of local versus regional party members elected... and whether the local members elected are no different than how we elect all members here in Canada (i.e., winner takes all). Facts/details matter member wilber!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 22, 2020, 04:06:09 pm
To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.

The Liberals preference, the ranked ballot system, was their preference because studies of past elections showed it favoured them the most.  The FPTP status quo also greatly favours the Liberals.  Making an election promise, then supporting a new system that most benefits you, then abandoning your promise when nobody else wants it in order to keep a system that most benefits you is what is "totally disingenuous and self serving.  The excuses from Trudeau et al that you're parroting are just smoke and mirrors.  That you also support the ranked ballot system that most benefited the Liberals is not surprising.  That Waldo goes all Waldo to smear PR is also not surprising.

The other parties, to be fair, wanted systems that most benefited themselves also.  So the lesson here is that Parliament is filled with selfish arseholes who care more about their own power than what is best for democracy and the country.  As far as I'm concerned, a bunch of TYRANTS only kept in check by our laws and constitution.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 04:29:35 pm
That Waldo goes all Waldo to smear PR is also not surprising.

poor lil' Gorgeous! Quit making shyte up! Correcting member wilber's failures isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"! Providing facts/details isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"!

like I said, there are many forms of PR - and those variations matter. But instead of qualifying the variants, you low-information types choose to simply blather on with broad, sweeping proportional nothingness.

and the perpetual whine is so telling!  ;D If you can't accept the offered rationale for not proceeding with electoral reform - that no clear-cut alternative choice came forward after all the review & discussion held - then keep on whining!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 04:37:09 pm
c'mon member wilber - you ignoring your bigTimeFail concerning Australia won't make it go away!

and now you do it again with Germany & New Zealand... where both countries use a form of PR - Mixed Member Proportional (MMP). The forms of PR are many - you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail. Since you continue to reference countries without providing any detail, the waldo asks if you'll do some research and come back and advise on the Germany/New Zealand % splits of local versus regional party members elected... and whether the local members elected are no different than how we elect all members here in Canada (i.e., winner takes all). Facts/details matter member wilber!


That's rich coming from someone who writes off all forms of PR by saying it will be dominated by fringe groups.

In 2004,  BC formed a Citizens Assembly to look at all forms of PR and come up with one form for a referendum. The assembly consisted of of 161 members, one woman and one man randomly selected from each of the 79 existing electoral districts, two first Nations members and a chair. The system was to be selected by the people, not partisan political parties. This is why Trudeau's excuses are bullshit. He wants control, period.

After a year the assembly finally decided on STV as the best system.

The bar set for passing was a 60% majority in a minimum of 60% or 48 of the 79 provinces electoral districts. STV received  57.7% of the vote and a majority in 77 of 79 districts. There was a clear vote for change but the government set the bar too high, otherwise BC would have had PR in 2005.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 22, 2020, 04:57:41 pm
poor lil' Gorgeous! Quit making shyte up! Correcting member wilber's failures isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"! Providing facts/details isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"!

like I said, there are many forms of PR - and those variations matter. But instead of qualifying the variants, you low-information types choose to simply blather on with broad, sweeping proportional nothingness.

and the perpetual whine is so telling!  ;D If you can't accept the offered rationale for not proceeding with electoral reform - that no clear-cut alternative choice came forward after all the review & discussion held - then keep on whining!

The smoke and mirrors routine isn't fooling anybody.  You only care about what benefits the Liberals.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 07:21:18 pm
you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail.
Why do you muddy the kool aid, to make it taste better?  Its still kool aid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 12:38:09 am
c'mon member wilber - you ignoring your bigTimeFail concerning Australia won't make it go away!

and now you do it again with Germany & New Zealand... where both countries use a form of PR - Mixed Member Proportional (MMP). The forms of PR are many - you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail. Since you continue to reference countries without providing any detail, the waldo asks if you'll do some research and come back and advise on the Germany/New Zealand % splits of local versus regional party members elected... and whether the local members elected are no different than how we elect all members here in Canada (i.e., winner takes all). Facts/details matter member wilber!
That's rich coming from someone who writes off all forms of PR by saying it will be dominated by fringe groups.

I did no such thing. Most certainly I noted there have been significant problems associated with PR; e.g., failed coalitions & fringe party control. Of course you were quite dismissive of said criticism.

bottom line: you PR proponents make broad, sweeping claims without regard to the many variants of PR that exist... like all you're looking for is that magical/mystical word (to you), 'proportional'!  ;D

In 2004,  BC formed a Citizens Assembly to look at all forms of PR and come up with one form for a referendum. The assembly consisted of of 161 members, one woman and one man randomly selected from each of the 79 existing electoral districts, two first Nations members and a chair. The system was to be selected by the people, not partisan political parties. This is why Trudeau's excuses are bullshit. He wants control, period.

After a year the assembly finally decided on STV as the best system.

The bar set for passing was a 60% majority in a minimum of 60% or 48 of the 79 provinces electoral districts. STV received  57.7% of the vote and a majority in 77 of 79 districts. There was a clear vote for change but the government set the bar too high, otherwise BC would have had PR in 2005.

ya ya, you made me look! Notwithstanding both referendums failed to realize your PR nirvana, there no shortage of criticism for the process followed. How ironic that you PR proponents had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

but wait, it gets even better! It's like you PR proponents were in search of something you pretty much already had in past elections; specifically as I read: "in the 2017 B.C. election, just over 86% of the B.C. legislature seats were representative of the votes cast. Furthermore, when applying that same 2017 standard of measure to the 1996, 2005, 2009, and 2013 B.C. elections, the average proportionality level exceeded 89%". Like I said, in search of a solution to a "problem" that doesn't exist in B.C.!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 12:49:53 am
poor lil' Gorgeous! Quit making shyte up! Correcting member wilber's failures isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"! Providing facts/details isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"!

like I said, there are many forms of PR - and those variations matter. But instead of qualifying the variants, you low-information types choose to simply blather on with broad, sweeping proportional nothingness.

and the perpetual whine is so telling!  ;D If you can't accept the offered rationale for not proceeding with electoral reform - that no clear-cut alternative choice came forward after all the review & discussion held - then keep on whining!


The smoke and mirrors routine isn't fooling anybody.  You only care about what benefits the Liberals.

no, there's nothing hidden, no smoke & mirrors in terms of the public undertakings that showed there was no clear definitive alternative. If you'd like to challenge that, please do; again, result findings are in the public domain. Of course, it means you'd actually have to go above and beyond your typical drive-by, gutter-sniping!

other than the punyGreens and the malcontentGoingNowhereNDP, what party is clamoring for a change to FPTP, hey! Certainly not your favoured CPC - amirite?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 11:35:05 am
I did no such thing. Most certainly I noted there have been significant problems associated with PR; e.g., failed coalitions & fringe party control. Of course you were quite dismissive of said criticism.

bottom line: you PR proponents make broad, sweeping claims without regard to the many variants of PR that exist... like all you're looking for is that magical/mystical word (to you), 'proportional'!  ;D



For every example of countries that have had issues with a proportional system, you can find several others where it has been a success. We have a system where parties form majority governments that not only got less than 40% of the vote, they got less votes than a party that finds itself in opposition.

Quote
ya ya, you made me look! Notwithstanding both referendums failed to realize your PR nirvana, there no shortage of criticism for the process followed. How ironic that you PR proponents had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

The choice was clear with the first referendum and if it had been run under the same rules as the last one it would have passed comfortably. The last referendum was a joke, I knew it wouldn't pass as soon as I read the ballot. It was so amateurish it was like it was designed to fail and I'm not sure it wasn't.


Quote
but wait, it gets even better! It's like you PR proponents were in search of something you pretty much already had in past elections; specifically as I read: "in the 2017 B.C. election, just over 86% of the B.C. legislature seats were representative of the votes cast. Furthermore, when applying that same 2017 standard of measure to the 1996, 2005, 2009, and 2013 B.C. elections, the average proportionality level exceeded 89%". Like I said, in search of a solution to a "problem" that doesn't exist in B.C.!



I don't know where you got those numbers but why wouldn't you be happy with 100%? But then for a guy who is happy with 39% majorities, that shouldn't be surprising.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 23, 2020, 11:48:49 am
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage-push-inflation.asp

"Economists track wages closely because of their wage push inflation effects. Wage push inflation has an inflationary spiral effect that occurs when wages are increased and businesses must — to pay the higher wages — charge more for their products and/or services. Additionally, any wage increase that occurs will increase the money supply of consumers. With a higher money supply, consumers have more spending power, so the demand for goods increases. An increase in demand for goods then increases the price of goods in the broader market. Companies charge more for their goods to pay higher wages, and the higher wages also increase the price of goods in the broader market."


Yeah that's the theory. Yet time and time again we've seen examples where wages increase and prices don't jump up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 23, 2020, 01:16:42 pm
You can also find several instances of issues with FPTP systems as well.

The Greens, a “fringe party”, held the deciding vote in the BC legislature for 3 years with a FPTP system.  Pointing to a few bad cases doesn’t negate the benefits of any system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 01:21:08 pm
For every example of countries that have had issues with a proportional system, you can find several others where it has been a success.

and yet, somehow, you've never addressed the types of known failures possible; again, the word 'proportional' is your only driver - notwithstanding your questionable (unqualified and lacking in detail) references to Germany... to New Zealand... to Australia. Again, the principal Australia electoral system remains as AV - not proportional; again, Germany & New Zealand have MMP electoral systems that are only partially proportional. You appear to have no qualms in simply dropping country names as having proportional electoral systems - country name dropping without adding qualification and detail explaining the full nature of their respective electoral systems! 

The choice was clear with the first referendum and if it had been run under the same rules as the last one it would have passed comfortably. The last referendum was a joke, I knew it wouldn't pass as soon as I read the ballot. It was so amateurish it was like it was designed to fail and I'm not sure it wasn't.

again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

I don't know where you got those numbers but why wouldn't you be happy with 100%? But then for a guy who is happy with 39% majorities, that shouldn't be surprising.

again, unsurprisingly, your presumptive "100%" fell flat with the country examples you offered up. If you don't care for those numbers I provided for proportionality of past B.C. elections, please provide your alternative (presumably preferred) numbers - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 23, 2020, 01:24:28 pm
You can also find several instances of issues with FPTP systems as well.

The Greens, a “fringe party”, held the deciding vote in the BC legislature for 3 years with a FPTP system.  Pointing to a few bad cases doesn’t negate the benefits of any system.

Yes it does but maybe now we can carry on a fruitful conversation without you, now that you've disqualified yourself from annoying me with your ridiculous spamming.

The only motivation for a PR system comes from a losing party that has resigned itself to having no other way to gain back power. And in both cases of federal and provincial elections, it's the extinction of conservatism that is causing the fuss. Get the fuk over it!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 01:25:35 pm
Pointing to a few bad cases doesn’t negate the benefits of any system.

neither does being transparent as to known problems... you know, that lack of transparency by you PRorBust proponents here!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 23, 2020, 01:26:26 pm
and yet, somehow, you've never addressed the types of known failures possible; again, the word 'proportional' is your only driver - notwithstanding your questionable (unqualified and lacking in detail) references to Germany... to New Zealand... to Australia. Again, the principal Australia electoral system remains as AV - not proportional; again, Germany & New Zealand have MMP electoral systems that are only partially proportional. You appear to have no qualms in simply dropping country names as having proportional electoral systems - country name dropping without adding qualification and detail explaining the full nature of their respective electoral systems! 

again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

again, unsurprisingly, your presumptive "100%" fell flat with the country examples you offered up. If you don't care for those numbers I provided for proportionality of past B.C. elections, please provide your alternative (presumably preferred) numbers - yes?

Sometimes you stay the course and get it right waldo!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 01:32:47 pm
and yet, somehow, you've never addressed the types of known failures possible; again, the word 'proportional' is your only driver - notwithstanding your questionable (unqualified and lacking in detail) references to Germany... to New Zealand... to Australia. Again, the principal Australia electoral system remains as AV - not proportional; again, Germany & New Zealand have MMP electoral systems that are only partially proportional. You appear to have no qualms in simply dropping country names as having proportional electoral systems - country name dropping without adding qualification and detail explaining the full nature of their respective electoral systems! 



You can also add almost every country in Western Europe and Scandinavia other than the UK, which is hardly a poster child these days.
The only other exception is France which uses a run off system. Still more democratic than ours.

Quote
again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.
The last referendum bar was 50% plus one. The first would have passed comfortably under the same rules. Should I be surprised that 57.7 percent isn't enough from someone who thinks 39% percent should get a party a majority? Nope, it's waldo.

Quote
again, unsurprisingly, your presumptive "100%" fell flat with the country examples you offered up. If you don't care for those numbers I provided for proportionality of past B.C. elections, please provide your alternative (presumably preferred) numbers - yes?

No



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 02:07:16 pm
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

A committee was formed, and the committee was left to die as there was no consensus between any of the parties.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 02:19:58 pm
A committee was formed, and the committee was left to die as there was no consensus between any of the parties.

There doesn’t have to be consensus between parties, put it in the hands of a non partisan group and let the people decide. We already have an agency for that, it’s called Elections Canada. Why would we trust politicians with vested interests to do it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 23, 2020, 02:31:43 pm
A committee was formed, and the committee was left to die as there was no consensus between any of the parties.

Since when is consensus of all parties in parliament necessary to pass some sort of legislation?  It was a cop out by Trudeau and designed to fail.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 23, 2020, 02:52:06 pm
There's no doubt that Trudeau does what's best for his party and the Canadian people expect nothing less. The Cons will do the same if they ever make it back to be government.

What's the point of the spam twins belabouring the issue continually until it becomes just mindnumbing?

Let it go waldo, the spammers are rattling, clanking, and spewing smoke and steam as they stumble  their way down the tracks and will fall off the rails without you pushing them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 23, 2020, 04:13:57 pm
Yeah that's the theory. Yet time and time again we've seen examples where wages increase and prices don't jump up.

Most inflation goes into housing costs (which flows into rents), because supply is limited and prices are never set but float in competitive auctions and vary from town to town.  We've seen housing prices continually skyrocket.  As a society the non-rich aren't getting richer, they're just putting more money into their mortgage and burying themselves in more debt.

IMO if we want to help the poor and middle class we need a more regulated real estate industry including possibly price controls on housing, and then by extension rents (some of which currently happens).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 23, 2020, 04:57:20 pm
Most inflation goes into housing costs (which flows into rents), because supply is limited and prices are never set but float in competitive auctions and vary from town to town. We've seen housing prices continually skyrocket.  As a society the non-rich aren't getting richer, they're just putting more money into their mortgage and burying themselves in more debt.

IMO if we want to help the poor and middle class we need a more regulated real estate industry including possibly price controls on housing, and then by extension rents (some of which currently happens).

And housing price inflation seems to be completely decoupled from wages (which have pretty much flatlined since the mid 1970s.) I agree more needs to be done to make housing affordable and accessible which is why I think you need a full suite of reforms including some kind of UBI, but not a uBI alone.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 05:19:31 pm
There's no doubt that Trudeau does what's best for his party and the Canadian people expect nothing less.

So why did he promise 2105 would be the last election using FPTP? Don't you think he should come through for the people who voted for him instead of just going through the motions?

It's only mind numbing for you because you can't address it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 06:58:21 pm
Since when is consensus of all parties in parliament necessary to pass some sort of legislation?  It was a cop out by Trudeau and designed to fail.

When you are changing the voting system, it would be pretty crass to push through your preferred solution (STV = Liberal governments forever) over the objections of the other major stakeholders. There was not even a path to compromise.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 07:01:34 pm
When you are changing the voting system, it would be pretty crass to push through your preferred solution (STV = Liberal governments forever) over the objections of the other major stakeholders. There was not even a path to compromise.

Total cop out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 07:03:34 pm
Total cop out.

So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 07:05:55 pm
I forgot my link. It sums up how I feel:

Yet most people do not buy those arguments. Polls and referendums consistently show that, notwithstanding its flaws, the FPTP system is considered valuable and that only a minority of voters want it changed. Various surveys also clearly show that Canadians want any proposals to be put to a popular vote.

-----

The Canadian electoral system is far from perfect, but it has been robust, has served the people well most of the time and has preserved its legitimacy. It has created a system that is competitive federally, provincially and intergovernmentally. There is no doubt that many feel as though their votes do not count. This can be addressed with some creativity without throwing overboard a system that has delivered accountability and a consistent alternance of power. Governments with majorities know that their support can be liquidated by a fickle Canadian public. The Canadian voting system is predictably unpredictable, and voters like it that way. Turns out the Liberals can live with it, too.

https://reviewcanada.ca/magazine/2017/05/why-trudeau-abandoned-electoral-reform/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 23, 2020, 07:06:32 pm
And housing price inflation seems to be completely decoupled from wages (which have pretty much flatlined since the mid 1970s.) I agree more needs to be done to make housing affordable and accessible which is why I think you need a full suite of reforms including some kind of UBI, but not a uBI alone.

Yes wages have only really risen with inflation, but household income has increased because of the big increase in dual-income households over the decades.  Much of that money from the second income has gone into housing bidding, and now a single income family with the parent earning an average income can't afford a middle class lifestyle anymore.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 23, 2020, 07:14:10 pm
I forgot my link. It sums up how I feel:

https://reviewcanada.ca/magazine/2017/05/why-trudeau-abandoned-electoral-reform/

From that link:

It was incontestably part of the Liberal platform in 2015. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau solemnly pledged to change the electoral system so that the next election, presumably in 2019, would be decided by a new way to count votes. The Special Committee on Electoral Reform was created in the spring of 2016, and it delivered its report in December. It proposed two things. The first was that Canada replace its traditional system of voting (the ­single-member plurality system known widely as the first-past-the-post model) with a proportional system of representation (where seats in the House of Commons would be allocated according to the proportion of votes each party received). Second, it recommended that the idea be put to a referendum.

Both notions were poisonous to the Liberals, and Trudeau abandoned the commitment. For one, he had consistently said that he did not want to go to the people. That position was surprising, since British Columbia had done it twice, as had Ontario and Prince Edward Island. (The United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Australian Capital Territory also put their electoral reforms to the people.) Prince Edward Island even held a second referendum in October 2016 while the issue was being debated in Ottawa.

Just as importantly, the Liberals certainly did not want a proportional system. It was never clear what Trudeau expected. There were indications that he was favourable to the idea of ranked ballots—the system whereby voters choose their favourites in descending order. It took little time for experts to predict, using past results and some imagination, that under such a system the Liberals would be guaranteed a place in government forever. It was a non-starter for the majority of non-Liberals on the committee.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 07:17:40 pm
From that link:

It was incontestably part of the Liberal platform in 2015. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau solemnly pledged to change the electoral system so that the next election, presumably in 2019, would be decided by a new way to count votes. The Special Committee on Electoral Reform was created in the spring of 2016, and it delivered its report in December. It proposed two things. The first was that Canada replace its traditional system of voting (the ­single-member plurality system known widely as the first-past-the-post model) with a proportional system of representation (where seats in the House of Commons would be allocated according to the proportion of votes each party received). Second, it recommended that the idea be put to a referendum.

Both notions were poisonous to the Liberals, and Trudeau abandoned the commitment. For one, he had consistently said that he did not want to go to the people. That position was surprising, since British Columbia had done it twice, as had Ontario and Prince Edward Island. (The United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Australian Capital Territory also put their electoral reforms to the people.) Prince Edward Island even held a second referendum in October 2016 while the issue was being debated in Ottawa.

Just as importantly, the Liberals certainly did not want a proportional system. It was never clear what Trudeau expected. There were indications that he was favourable to the idea of ranked ballots—the system whereby voters choose their favourites in descending order. It took little time for experts to predict, using past results and some imagination, that under such a system the Liberals would be guaranteed a place in government forever. It was a non-starter for the majority of non-Liberals on the committee.


I'm in total agreement with that. I find referenda to be ironically undemocratic in a representative democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 07:35:49 pm
So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.

It is and it doesn't matter what you or I prefer. Trudeau made a commitment to his supporters and he reneged on it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 23, 2020, 07:39:07 pm
So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.

You rightly had an problem with the US system where 46% of the vote got 100% of the power in 2016, you also had a problem with the Senate and SCOTUS, but you think Canada has a democratic system when 39% of the vote gets 100% of the power, including not only the executive but the House of Commons?

Of course you're not in a hurry, and neither was Trudeau, because the party you both support is in power and is most of the time.  At least someone like Shady wears their partisan biases on their sleeve.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 23, 2020, 07:39:37 pm
I'm in total agreement with that. I find referenda to be ironically undemocratic in a representative democracy.

Wow. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:14:00 pm
It is and it doesn't matter what you or I prefer. Trudeau made a commitment to his supporters and he reneged on it.

Trudeau kept over 90% of his promises in whole or in part during his first term. I view this promise among the naïve ones that shouldn't have been made.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:14:21 pm
Wow.

I'm certainly not alone in that opinion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:16:36 pm
You rightly had an problem with the US system where 46% of the vote got 100% of the power in 2016, you also had a problem with the Senate and SCOTUS, but you think Canada has a democratic system when 39% of the vote gets 100% of the power, including not only the executive but the House of Commons?

I would argue that voting for a head of state is very different than voting for a head of government. I'd also argue against the notion that minority governments have limitless power.

Quote
Of course you're not in a hurry, and neither was Trudeau, because the party you both support is in power and is most of the time.  At least someone like Shady wears their partisan biases on their sleeve.

I'm not in a hurry because I see real problems with PR in Canada. Most of the countries that do well with PR tend to be homogenous and small. Canada is vast and disparate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 23, 2020, 08:21:37 pm
(https://i1.wp.com/mackaycartoons.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2016-10-21.jpg?resize=700%2C574&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:32:11 pm
(https://i1.wp.com/mackaycartoons.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2016-10-21.jpg?resize=700%2C574&ssl=1)

I give him a little more credit than that. I just think he was too stupid to realize it was a dumb promise at the time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:35:40 pm
Trudeau kept over 90% of his promises in whole or in part during his first term. I view this promise among the naïve ones that shouldn't have been made.

How generous of you. I really don't think you care as long as the Liberals stay in power.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:38:46 pm
I give him a little more credit than that. I just think he was too stupid to realize it was a dumb promise at the time.

It wasn't stupid at all, it was very smart and it was calculated. There is no reason at all that he couldn't pursue it. He made the opposition an offer they couldn't accept and used it as an excuse to quit. He had his majority and that's all that mattered.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:39:29 pm
How generous of you. I really don't think you care as long as the Liberals stay in power.

I actually hope for a proper Progressive Conservative party in the future.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:40:59 pm


I'm not in a hurry because I see real problems with PR in Canada. Most of the countries that do well with PR tend to be homogenous and small. Canada is vast and disparate.

So we finally get the truth, you never wanted STV at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:41:33 pm
I actually hope for a proper Progressive Conservative party in the future.
So do I but that has nothing to do with PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:44:34 pm
So we finally get the truth, you never wanted STV at all.

STV isn't PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:50:48 pm
STV isn't PR.

It's a form of PR because every vote counts. I don't think you believe in electoral reform any more than Trudeau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 09:46:04 pm
It's a form of PR because every vote counts. I don't think you believe in electoral reform any more than Trudeau.

It's not a form of PR. It's a different way of tabulating votes. I would love STV. I'm back and forth on PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 23, 2020, 09:53:06 pm
I'm certainly not alone in that opinion.

Most people of that opinion are elitists who are simply scared of giving political power to actual citizens and would rather political power stay in the hands of their chosen elites because they think they'll vote for the policies they like.  Of course JT wouldn't want a referendum, it takes control out of his hands and the MP majority he has that he whips.  Guys like him and Harper are control freaks.

Ever since Brexit we've seen tons of articles, including academic ones, from globalist elitists spinning referendums as bad because for one of the few times in the last 40 years things didn't go their way and they freaked out, so ya let's now undermine their legitimacy.  ::)  What a bunch of tyrants.

From all your comments on the US system and the Canadian system, the JWR scandal, and now referendums, it's very clear that you care more about your chosen party/ideology having power than actual democracy.  You're a tyrant pretending to be something else, whether this is subconscious bias or straight up dishonestly or a bit of both.

If you look at history, the main point of representative democracy is to keep control among the elites while giving the populace a say once every few years to massage their need to think they have some kind of control.  Women, blacks/ethnic minorities, low income earners, people who didn't own property, have all been excluded from voting in the past, including in Canada.  In the last 500 years i've never seen a political system where the people had control, even in Communism which was supposed to be equality for the working class the elites kept a dictatorship and stole money from the people to live rich.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 10:19:43 pm
Most people of that opinion are elitists who are simply scared of giving political power to actual citizens and would rather political power stay in the hands of their chosen elites because they think they'll vote for the policies they like.  Of course JT wouldn't want a referendum, it takes control out of his hands and the MP majority he has that he whips.  Guys like him and Harper are control freaks.

We all watched the citizens of the UK jump off a cliff. We almost watched the citizens of Quebec do the same thing. We elect representatives to make difficult decisions that we (well, you anyway) don't always understand.

Quote
Ever since Brexit we've seen tons of articles, including academic ones, from globalist elitists spinning referendums as bad because for one of the few times in the last 40 years things didn't go their way and they freaked out, so ya let's now undermine their legitimacy.  ::)  What a bunch of tyrants.

Also, it was a bad move that cost the UK in more ways than it could ever gain.

Quote
From all your comments on the US system and the Canadian system, the JWR scandal, and now referendums, it's very clear that you care more about your chosen party/ideology having power than actual democracy.  You're a tyrant pretending to be something else, whether this is subconscious bias or straight up dishonestly or a bit of both.

Please, tell me more about me. I voted for the Harper Conservatives in 2008 because I thought that the Liberals were a bad choice. I supported the coalition in 2008, because the Conservatives were lying about our system of government. I was glad it collapsed, because Dion was a weak leader. I thought the Liberals and the other opposition parties overreached with their holding the Conservatives in contempt of parliament. I voted NDP in 2011, despite supporting Harper, because Conservatives are mean spirited bigots. I went into the 2015 campaign thinking Justin Trudeau was an idiot, and planning to support the Mulcair NDP. I supported the Manitoba PCs in 2016, despite being an NDP supporter because I felt the NDP were out of ideas, and it was time for a change and was unable to support any party in 2019, because they all sucked (that was a whoops on my part given the COVID death count). I supported the Liberals for reelection in 2019, because they were (by far) the best choice.

That I tend to lean very centrist (making me often a Liberal) and I have had more direct exposure to government and it's internal workings than you. I'm not jaded or naïve about government or humanity. Yes, I tend to sympathize with the party in power, because they have the difficult decisions to make. Yes, I cut them, no matter the party, a lot of slack because they're all only human.

Quote
If you look at history, the main point of representative democracy is to keep control among the elites while giving the populace a say once every few years to massage their need to think they have some kind of control.  Women, blacks/ethnic minorities, low income earners, people who didn't own property, have all been excluded from voting in the past, including in Canada.


Which is precisely why we have protections and rights that the public don't get a vote on. Tyranny of the majority is no better than what you accuse me of.

You and I may disagree on issues. That's fine. That said, you can take your reading of me, and shove it right up your ass.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 11:10:56 pm
Wow, the people aren't even allowed to choose the system they use to elect their governments. It doesn't get much more elitist than that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 11:36:47 pm
Who does government serve, the people or itself?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 24, 2020, 12:08:31 am
Who does government serve, the people or itself?

They must obviously serve the concepts they suggest they stand for whilst seeking our vote, or they get thrown out next go around. I understand that is an over wishful thinking version of things, but at least it's democracy and we have the power to mark that X
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 12:29:42 am
Who does government serve, the people or itself?

People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes they’re wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them they’re wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 09:02:58 am
People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes they’re wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them they’re wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.

So if the riff raff are too stupid to even choose how their governments are formed  why even have elections? Why not just have an autocracy where they don’t have to think at all. If that had always been the case, there would never have been such a thing as democracy in the first place? Why on earth do you think it would be a good idea to leave it up to two parties with a vested interest in the status quo to come up with any kind of electoral reform. They will always look after their own interests first.

You have been conning us JMT, you have no interest in electoral reform.

PS Switzerland has both PR and direct democracy through referendums. Oh the horror!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 11:04:49 am
PS Switzerland has both PR and direct democracy through referendums. Oh the horror!

California also has direct democracy. It's been a huge burden that has made California nearly ungovernable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 24, 2020, 11:25:51 am
Referenda are a terrible idea.  Constant propositions by special interest groups and corporate money.

This year Uber and Lyft got a proposition passed that exempts their drivers from labour laws.   wow...  democracy at work there?   These companies funded this campaign to the tune of $90 million. 

That’s not democracy...  it’s a gross perversion of it in the form of a corporatocracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 24, 2020, 11:32:44 am
California also has direct democracy. It's been a huge burden that has made California nearly ungovernable.

Quite true of California at times. They've made some dangerous moves that have needed to be reversed. But maybe it a good thing that they tried and learned because it seems they have eliminated most of the whacko extreme rightists. Direct democracy allows stupid people to do stupid things.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 24, 2020, 11:35:34 am
A referendum in Switzerland passed blocking the purchase of new fighter aircraft for their airforce.   

Careful what you wish for with these “direct democracy” votes.  Conservatives would set their hair on fire if the beatniks managed to get something like that passed here.  How many referenda would come out of Alberta and Saskatchewan promoting oil? 

Referenda are an idiotic idea. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 12:03:31 pm
A referendum in Switzerland passed blocking the purchase of new fighter aircraft for their airforce.   

Careful what you wish for with these “direct democracy” votes.  Conservatives would set their hair on fire if the beatniks managed to get something like that passed here.  How many referenda would come out of Alberta and Saskatchewan promoting oil? 

Referenda are an idiotic idea.

Imagine the referenda demanding increased spending and lower taxes. Imagine the referenda demanding acting on climate change and cheap, plentiful gasoline. it's not workable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 24, 2020, 12:30:07 pm
Imagine the referenda demanding increased spending and lower taxes. Imagine the referenda demanding acting on climate change and cheap, plentiful gasoline. it's not workable.
Hmmm, sounds exactly like what we've wound up with anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 12:49:57 pm
Hmmm, sounds exactly like what we've wound up with anyway.

That's because many politicians lack the courage to act, though that seems to be changing somewhat.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 01:07:33 pm
California also has direct democracy. It's been a huge burden that has made California nearly ungovernable.

Tell you what. Set up something like the Citizen's Assembly to review and decide on an alternate electoral system to what we have now, then make Parliament vote on it. You will get your wish to have Parliament make the decision and we will all find out who is actually serious about electoral reform.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 24, 2020, 01:14:17 pm
It's as dangerous as allowing Canadians in Alberta to have a referendum on capitol punishment for all of Canada, or allowing Americans to have a country wide referendum on the right to pack concealed heat.

Given opportunities the rabid, frothing at the mouth right, just like our two (or three)  resident spammers, will destroy the world.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 24, 2020, 02:23:42 pm
It's as dangerous as allowing Canadians in Alberta to have a referendum on capitol punishment for all of Canada, or allowing Americans to have a country wide referendum on the right to pack concealed heat.

Given opportunities the rabid, frothing at the mouth right, just like our two (or three)  resident spammers, will destroy the world.

Given your cluelessness, you gave 2 bad examples.  1, capital punishment is not constitutional in Canada.  2, carrying guns IS constitutional in the USA.

However, inadvertently, you bring up a good point.  How would we ever weed out the wheat from the chaff in terms of legitimate questions to ask. 

I agree with JMT, it’s unworkable and would be bad for our democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 24, 2020, 02:38:14 pm
That's because many politicians lack the courage to act, though that seems to be changing somewhat.
What's that perception based on, a promise made by a lying leader?  If I'm supposed to be gracious that at least we had a promise it seems fair that you should be a little less condescending about it being broken.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 24, 2020, 03:49:11 pm
again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.
Should I be surprised that 57.7 percent isn't enough from someone who thinks 39% percent should get a party a majority?
Wow, the people aren't even allowed to choose the system they use to elect their governments. It doesn't get much more elitist than that.

again, notwithstanding you B.C. PRorBust proponents were seeking a solution to a "problem" that doesn't even exist in B.C., how ironic you would accept a fundamental change to the electoral system based on a measly 60% of those even bothering to participate in the respective referendums... that were, again, short on specifics and that few understood!

as has been stated here previously, government by referendum is (should be) a non-starter!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 24, 2020, 04:00:51 pm
Quite true of California at times. They've made some dangerous moves that have needed to be reversed. But maybe it a good thing that they tried and learned because it seems they have eliminated most of the whacko extreme rightists. Direct democracy allows stupid people to do stupid things.

Prop 22 shows how easily direct democracy can be subverted by those with a shitload of money and absolutely no scruples about lying to people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 07:42:00 pm
Tell you what. Set up something like the Citizen's Assembly

I believe we have one, called the House of Commons.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 08:04:55 pm
I believe we have one, called the House of Commons.

The House of Commons consists of partisan politicians acting in their own self interests and the aren't experts or interested in electoral reform. Get a knowledgeable  independent group to give them an option and make them decide. You don't even trust Parliament to make a decision.

Why do you want the issue of electoral reform to just disappear?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 08:10:44 pm
The House of Commons consists of partisan politicians acting in their own self interests and the aren't experts or interested in electoral reform. Get a knowledgeable  independent group to give them an option and make them decide. You don't even trust Parliament to make a decision.

Why do you want the issue of electoral reform to just disappear?

Because we have a functioning, stable democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 08:36:11 pm
Because we have a functioning, stable democracy.

Fine, you aren't interested in electoral reform so you are fine with Trudeau breaking his promise. Got it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 09:59:14 pm
Fine, you aren't interested in electoral reform so you are fine with Trudeau breaking his promise. Got it.

Yeah, I already said that. I prefer STV, but I'm in no rush to get there.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 10:35:36 pm
Yeah, I already said that. I prefer STV, but I'm in no rush to get there.

No you don’t. You don’t care if you ever get there.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 09:14:50 am
It’s ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 25, 2020, 09:32:01 am
It’s ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.


Anyone who is actually liberal (not Liberal) doesn't consider me a liberal.  I am extremely conservative when it comes to our form of government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 11:27:03 am
It’s ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.

ya ya, Harper/weakAndy/O'Tool... such vocal Conservative proponents of electoral reform - NOT! Here's a lil' gem statement from the (now) leader of the CPC:

Quote from: current leader of the CPC, O'Tool
Electoral Reform Could Come At The Cost Of Our National Unity --- Will Canada's Parliament see more regional or secessionist parties under proportional representation? Will we see more single-issue parties based on social or cultural issues? Will a move to PR virtually guarantee that the Bloc Québécois never fades away like single-issue parties of the past? Under a PR electoral system the answer is "likely yes" to all of these questions.

your false/fake outrage was highlighted with your country name-dropping and the bigTime fails you displayed by your lack of understanding of the electoral systems in Australia, Germany & New Zealand! And again, you kept touting the 2 B.C. referendums while ignoring the fact past election results have shown B.C. has had highly proportional governments elected... I gave you the numbers and challenged you to counter them - and after some time later, you still haven't, so the waldo accepts you can't. Most pointedly you ignore/downplay that PR type electoral systems have typically resulted in minority type governments; where known/recognized problems with PR electoral systems have been profiled (like, again, failed coalitions and fringe party dominance).

it was heelarious to read you pressing the waldo with your 100% nattering... while you were quite content to accept a low-bar of 60% of those voting in the B.C. referendum - which couldn't even be met in both referendums run over the years. Not 60% of the eligible voters... just 60% of those that even bothered with the referendum; where, again, the summary review consensus is that a significant number of those voting YES didn't even understand the change alternative being put forward - hence the oft written summary of the referendum(s) as, "one that was short on specifics and that few understood."

you kept nattering on about a national referendum being the 'endAll - beAll'... but apparently you've finally accepted government by referendum is a failing principle. So now, your latest shift has you wanting some "Citizen Assembly" type group to put forward an alternative for the HOC to vote on!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 11:30:40 am
Consider someone like Trump as PM with a 39% majority and the power of political life and death over everyone in the caucus.

FPTP is about gaining and keeping power, not about democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 11:37:06 am

Anyone who is actually liberal (not Liberal) doesn't consider me a liberal.  I am extremely conservative when it comes to our form of government.

Considering you wouldn't even want parliament to vote on a proposal from an unbiased source, I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 11:56:19 am
Consider someone like Trump as PM with a 39% majority and the power of political life and death over everyone in the caucus.

does going to an extreme help your crusade?  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 11:57:44 am
does going to an extreme help your crusade?  ;D


Look at the US. Look at the UK today.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 12:07:24 pm

Look at the US. Look at the UK today.

And look at Canada where democracy is functioning better than in any other country in the world. Or look at the other nine of the top ten democracies in the world that are pretty close to Canada's positioning on the political spectrum.

I'm giving you a chance wilbur, don't blow it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 12:12:08 pm
Considering you wouldn't even want parliament to vote on a proposal from an unbiased source, I couldn't agree more.

again, heelarious! Since you've repeatedly touted that B.C. Citizen Assembly as 'independent, unbiased', let the waldo further burst your bubble:

Quote
Criticisms regarding its design and operation: Random selection of members was meant to make the body representative of the public at large, but citizens were not obliged to participate, as they are in legal juries. Instead, they were free to decline, so it is likely that many of the members who accepted were more active and civic-minded than the population at large. Participating in the Assembly might also have been more appealing to reformists than to those who were satisfied with the status quo. The selection process insured equal representation by geography, gender, and age group, but not ethnicity, aboriginal status, or socio-economic status. If the selection criteria granted equal representation to men and women, why should it not also ensure that also the voices of disadvantaged groups or of citizens of specific ethnic origin be represented? Finally, it remains unclear whether members felt they were representing their personal views, their districts, what emerged from the hearings, or the province at large. Would the Assembly have made different decisions with different selection mechanisms and notions of representation?

In terms of equality of the deliberations, inevitably, some members spoke more than others, with interventions from men outnumbering those of women or minorities. Although the chair encouraged first-time speakers to engage, more formal inclusion rules could have levelled the playing field for all participants.

Other critics suspect that the process of deliberation was consciously or unconsciously steered by staff. Members composed neither the structure of the Assembly’s deliberations, its timing, nor its agenda. Staff decisions regarding these factors, as well as the educational materials and the selection of experts who spoke to Assembly members, may have biased their deliberations. Additionally, members had no choice over the priorities of reform, but were restricted by their mandate to focus solely on the electoral law, neglecting other important elements, such as electoral districts, or campaign finance.

The deliberation phase was particularly complicated because the Assembly mandate required that the different options that had been explored in previous phases had to be narrowed down and eventually coalesce into one proposal. The process of selecting the desirable characteristics of a model, for example, was hastened and issues such as women representation received less attention than some wished. The group ended up selecting the three characteristics that were at the top of the lecturer’s list of desirable features of electoral models. Similarly, it was unclear whether the Assembly had the authority to modify the number of electoral districts and the number of parliamentary seats, which would have been required to adopt the MMP system. The Assembly chair clarified that the number of seats could not be altered, which might have prompted members to select the STV system because it required less change. It appears that more time was devoted to illustrating the STV system, while the technical details of applying the MMP model to British Columbia were left unexplored. The tension between exploring options and reaching consensus around a model emerged during the deliberation phase, and it remains unclear whether members would have favored the MMP system had they had more time to work through its complexities.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 12:42:27 pm
And look at Canada where democracy is functioning better than in any other country in the world. Or look at the other nine of the top ten democracies in the world that are pretty close to Canada's positioning on the political spectrum.

I'm giving you a chance wilbur, don't blow it.

Just look at them. Almost all of them have some sort of PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 12:50:05 pm
Apparently Canadians are smart enough to avoid making someone like Trump PM with a 39% majority, but too stupid to have anything other than a FPTP electoral system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 01:00:04 pm
Just look at them. Almost all of them have some sort of PR.

Canada is #1 and it doesn't, as well the majority of the world's countries don't.

I'm not opposed to PR. I'm just opposed to it as long as we have a well functioning democracy but would be for it if there was a threat from the right to destroy our system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 01:06:12 pm
Canada is #1 and it doesn't, as well the majority of the world's countries don't.

I'm not opposed to PR. I'm just opposed to it as long as we have a well functioning democracy but would be for it if there was a threat from the right to destroy our system.

#1 or #2 to Switzerland depending on the list Switzerland has PR and direct democracy through referendums. Works even in a country with four official languages.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 01:13:20 pm
#1 or #2 to Switzerland depending on the list Switzerland has PR and direct democracy through referendums. Works even in a country with four official languages.

I'll consider it if Trudeau is defeated.
But I'm like the admin here in that I'm not fully convinced it's a better way and that's mostly because I have had no need to consider it. It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.

Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 01:53:10 pm
I'll consider it if Trudeau is defeated.
But I'm like the admin here in that I'm not fully convinced it's a better way and that's mostly because I have had no need to consider it. It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.

Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.

That's the thing, like the average politician, none of you can think past the next election. In fact, a centre left coalition would be more likely than one on the right. In the present political climate, any form of PR would be more likely to prevent a Conservative government.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 02:00:55 pm
That's the thing, like the average politician, none of you can think past the next election. In fact, a centre left coalition would be more likely than one on the right. In the present political climate, any form of PR would be more likely to prevent a Conservative government.

It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. There's no sense in belabouring the point any further with you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 02:11:08 pm
It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. There's no sense in belabouring the point any further with you.

It won't happen at all if we are going to rely on politicians to come up with an alternate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on November 25, 2020, 04:01:44 pm
It won't happen at all if we are going to rely on politicians to come up with an alternate.

Not true...  depends which politician.

Trudeau was a hopeful candidate to bring about change, but he was all talk.  I almost voted for him because of that promise...   Sure glad I didn’t.

Conservatives are hopeless on electoral reform.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 05:12:15 pm
c'mon... as previously posted, this is too good to have youse guys simply ignore it!  ;D

Quote from: current leader of the CPC, O'Tool
Electoral Reform Could Come At The Cost Of Our National Unity --- Will Canada's Parliament see more regional or secessionist parties under proportional representation? Will we see more single-issue parties based on social or cultural issues? Will a move to PR virtually guarantee that the Bloc Québécois never fades away like single-issue parties of the past? Under a PR electoral system the answer is "likely yes" to all of these questions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 05:20:02 pm
equally, just too good to allow it to be lost/ignored. Member wilber, about your oft mentioned 'independent unbiased' source... the B.C. Citizens Assembly  ;D

Quote
Criticisms regarding its design and operation: Random selection of members was meant to make the body representative of the public at large, but citizens were not obliged to participate, as they are in legal juries. Instead, they were free to decline, so it is likely that many of the members who accepted were more active and civic-minded than the population at large. Participating in the Assembly might also have been more appealing to reformists than to those who were satisfied with the status quo. The selection process insured equal representation by geography, gender, and age group, but not ethnicity, aboriginal status, or socio-economic status. If the selection criteria granted equal representation to men and women, why should it not also ensure that also the voices of disadvantaged groups or of citizens of specific ethnic origin be represented? Finally, it remains unclear whether members felt they were representing their personal views, their districts, what emerged from the hearings, or the province at large. Would the Assembly have made different decisions with different selection mechanisms and notions of representation?

In terms of equality of the deliberations, inevitably, some members spoke more than others, with interventions from men outnumbering those of women or minorities. Although the chair encouraged first-time speakers to engage, more formal inclusion rules could have levelled the playing field for all participants.

Other critics suspect that the process of deliberation was consciously or unconsciously steered by staff. Members composed neither the structure of the Assembly’s deliberations, its timing, nor its agenda. Staff decisions regarding these factors, as well as the educational materials and the selection of experts who spoke to Assembly members, may have biased their deliberations. Additionally, members had no choice over the priorities of reform, but were restricted by their mandate to focus solely on the electoral law, neglecting other important elements, such as electoral districts, or campaign finance.

The deliberation phase was particularly complicated because the Assembly mandate required that the different options that had been explored in previous phases had to be narrowed down and eventually coalesce into one proposal. The process of selecting the desirable characteristics of a model, for example, was hastened and issues such as women representation received less attention than some wished. The group ended up selecting the three characteristics that were at the top of the lecturer’s list of desirable features of electoral models. Similarly, it was unclear whether the Assembly had the authority to modify the number of electoral districts and the number of parliamentary seats, which would have been required to adopt the MMP system. The Assembly chair clarified that the number of seats could not be altered, which might have prompted members to select the STV system because it required less change. It appears that more time was devoted to illustrating the STV system, while the technical details of applying the MMP model to British Columbia were left unexplored. The tension between exploring options and reaching consensus around a model emerged during the deliberation phase, and it remains unclear whether members would have favored the MMP system had they had more time to work through its complexities.

and you were willing to accept a 60% 'in favour' voting outcome from the recommendation coming forward from this most questionable group/source... not 60% of the full electorate... just a measly 60% of those actually choosing to vote in the referendum(s)! And even then, your favoured side couldn't gitErDone!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 05:44:34 pm
equally, just too good to allow it to be lost/ignored. Member wilber, about your oft mentioned 'independent unbiased' source... the B.C. Citizens Assembly  ;D

and you were willing to accept a 60% 'in favour' voting outcome from the recommendation coming forward from this most questionable group/source... not 60% of the full electorate... just a measly 60% of those actually choosing to vote in the referendum(s)! And even then, your favoured side couldn't gitErDone!


39% of those who voted is good enough for a majority government in your book. I think my standards are a lot higher.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 08:30:03 pm
We all watched the citizens of the UK jump off a cliff. We almost watched the citizens of Quebec do the same thing.

What cliff?  Is London burning?  Divorces are messy, and cost some money, and lawyers have to figure things out, but despite that people go through them because they think it's best for them in the longterm.  Quebec and Britain can do whatever they want, regardless of what you or I think or want, whatever they choose they themselves will have to deal with the consequences. That's the whole point.  It doesn't matter what you or I think, people have the right to self-determination, and you wish to deny them that.  This is tyranny.

You're against referendums, and yet you're against the electoral college and support a popular vote referendum to determine the POTUS instead of people voting for representatives (the electoral college) who then vote for the POTUS.   I agree with you.  The electoral college was purposefully designed to deny "the people" direct control over determining the POTUS in case they voted in a way the elites didn't want.  Same reason why women and blacks and non-landowners originally were denied the vote:  people with power want to keep control.

The only thing consistent in your views on democratic systems is that you support the systems that ensure the policies you support win out most of the time.

Quote
We elect representatives to make difficult decisions that we (well, you anyway) don't always understand.

This is an elitist position.  Canadians aren't stupid.  MP's are just people too.  Trudeau has a teaching degree, Harper had an economics degree, neither Trump nor Biden are geniuses, nor AOC or Ted Cruz or most politicians.  Anything our PM or MP's can understand most Canadians can understand, just give them the info.  The vast majority of politicians don't go through and read every line of every bill, they get the Coles Notes, and in Canada's case most MP's are told and whipped to vote a certain way by leadership anyways or else denied or demoted from Cabinet positions, committee positions, travel, Question Period time, or removed from caucus etc.

Quote
Also, it was a bad move that cost the UK in more ways than it could ever gain.

You or I can think whatever we want about it but it's not our call.  There's non-British politicians in Brussels completely unaccountable to British citizens determining policy that significantly affects Brits, and Brits have every right not to want that, or want that, it's their call.  Most of the politicians in Brussels don't like Brexit either but again it's not their call.  Everyone is in a moral panic because they can't control Brits as they wish, which is the whole point.

Quote
Please, tell me more about me. I voted for the Harper Conservatives in 2008 because I thought that the Liberals were a bad choice. I supported...

Maybe things were different in the past i dunno.  About the last 4-5 years or about however long this forum has been up I don't remember you saying hardly a negative thing about the Trudeau Liberals or their policy, and virtually all of your opinions seem to magically align with theirs, and making every excuse for them along the way.  If you wave the banner that's fine, but what annoys me is that you keep this facade pretending to be something else.

Quote
That I tend to lean very centrist (making me often a Liberal) and I have had more direct exposure to government and it's internal workings than you.

You have no knowledge of my work history to presume this.
 
Quote
Which is precisely why we have protections and rights that the public don't get a vote on. Tyranny of the majority is no better than what you accuse me of.

Yes a Charter/Bill of Rights protects things like minority rights, and that's good, it protects us from politicians too.  If we have tyranny of a minority as we do now vs tyranny of a majority, I choose the majority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 08:34:36 pm
People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes they’re wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them they’re wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.

This is the same elitist, paternalistic thinking the federal Liberals have always for as long as i've been alive.  You've definitely found the right party.  I don't need someone else telling me what's good for me, nor do Canadians.  Voters are adults they don't need the gov to be their mommy and daddy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 08:36:07 pm
Referenda are a terrible idea.  Constant propositions by special interest groups and corporate money.

This year Uber and Lyft got a proposition passed that exempts their drivers from labour laws.   wow...  democracy at work there?   These companies funded this campaign to the tune of $90 million. 

That’s not democracy...  it’s a gross perversion of it in the form of a corporatocracy.

You just described the current system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 08:42:02 pm
Imagine the referenda demanding increased spending and lower taxes. Imagine the referenda demanding acting on climate change and cheap, plentiful gasoline. it's not workable.

A system of total referendums isn't practical.  I think their should be a lot more referendums on key policy decisions and direction though.  I think people should get to decide on the general direction of different issues, maybe elect something like the cabinet, and then have cabinet broker have to make things workable as a more cohesive whole.  The current system you have like 4 choices, and every issue comes inside a basket of your one party choice based on ideology.  There's no room for anyone or any government that is ie: to the left on environment but to the right on defense.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 08:43:19 pm
Prop 22 shows how easily direct democracy can be subverted by those with a shitload of money and absolutely no scruples about lying to people.

But the current system doesn't work like this?  Cut out the corrupt middle men.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 08:58:34 pm
Because we have a functioning, stable democracy.

LOL.  Our politicians are captured and corrupted by non-democratic influences including corporate and foreign interests, and the MP's that don't play the game stay on the backbench with hardly any power.   Lots of MP's run hoping they can change things and make a difference and then quit after realizing they can't without selling their souls.  Former MP's have written books and articles about it.

1 person 1 vote is non-existent in our system, different MP's have different power based on whether they're party leader, in cabinet/shadow cabinet, backbench etc.  It's a total top-down power hierarchy.

I've personally seen so much political corruption by banks and housing developers.  It's so sad, the little guy is running on a treadmill while feeding their pockets.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 09:03:25 pm
I'll consider it if Trudeau is defeated.
But I'm like the admin here in that I'm not fully convinced it's a better way and that's mostly because I have had no need to consider it. It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.

Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.

OMG thank you!!  Finally someone who is honest!!!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 25, 2020, 09:15:01 pm
It's as dangerous as allowing Canadians in Alberta to have a referendum on capitol punishment for all of Canada, or allowing Americans to have a country wide referendum on the right to pack concealed heat.

If Albertans wanted a federal referenda on oil or capital punishment or abortion etc. it very likely wouldn't go their way, given that typically 60-70% of Canadians vote for leftwing parties in this country. 

In fact, if 51% of the votes got about 51% of the seats and 51% of the power, leftwing parties in Canada would always be in control of government.  Not sure what you're worried about.

Quote
Given opportunities the rabid, frothing at the mouth right, just like our two (or three)  resident spammers, will destroy the world.

Again, thank you for being honest.  Yes, why give people you disagree with any say or power, even if your views would likely still win out?  When it comes down to it it's about maintaining power and control.  At least you'll admit to your tyranny.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 11:24:57 pm
equally, just too good to allow it to be lost/ignored. Member wilber, about your oft mentioned 'independent unbiased' source... the B.C. Citizens Assembly  ;D

Quote
Criticisms regarding its design and operation: Random selection of members was meant to make the body representative of the public at large, but citizens were not obliged to participate, as they are in legal juries. Instead, they were free to decline, so it is likely that many of the members who accepted were more active and civic-minded than the population at large. Participating in the Assembly might also have been more appealing to reformists than to those who were satisfied with the status quo. The selection process insured equal representation by geography, gender, and age group, but not ethnicity, aboriginal status, or socio-economic status. If the selection criteria granted equal representation to men and women, why should it not also ensure that also the voices of disadvantaged groups or of citizens of specific ethnic origin be represented? Finally, it remains unclear whether members felt they were representing their personal views, their districts, what emerged from the hearings, or the province at large. Would the Assembly have made different decisions with different selection mechanisms and notions of representation?

In terms of equality of the deliberations, inevitably, some members spoke more than others, with interventions from men outnumbering those of women or minorities. Although the chair encouraged first-time speakers to engage, more formal inclusion rules could have leveled the playing field for all participants.

Other critics suspect that the process of deliberation was consciously or unconsciously steered by staff. Members composed neither the structure of the Assembly’s deliberations, its timing, nor its agenda. Staff decisions regarding these factors, as well as the educational materials and the selection of experts who spoke to Assembly members, may have biased their deliberations. Additionally, members had no choice over the priorities of reform, but were restricted by their mandate to focus solely on the electoral law, neglecting other important elements, such as electoral districts, or campaign finance.

The deliberation phase was particularly complicated because the Assembly mandate required that the different options that had been explored in previous phases had to be narrowed down and eventually coalesce into one proposal. The process of selecting the desirable characteristics of a model, for example, was hastened and issues such as women representation received less attention than some wished. The group ended up selecting the three characteristics that were at the top of the lecturer’s list of desirable features of electoral models. Similarly, it was unclear whether the Assembly had the authority to modify the number of electoral districts and the number of parliamentary seats, which would have been required to adopt the MMP system. The Assembly chair clarified that the number of seats could not be altered, which might have prompted members to select the STV system because it required less change. It appears that more time was devoted to illustrating the STV system, while the technical details of applying the MMP model to British Columbia were left unexplored. The tension between exploring options and reaching consensus around a model emerged during the deliberation phase, and it remains unclear whether members would have favored the MMP system had they had more time to work through its complexities.

and you were willing to accept a 60% 'in favour' voting outcome from the recommendation coming forward from this most questionable group/source... not 60% of the full electorate... just a measly 60% of those actually choosing to vote in the referendum(s)! And even then, your favoured side couldn't gitErDone!

39% of those who voted is good enough for a majority government in your book. I think my standards are a lot higher.

so you keep saying! Let the waldo put some actual numbers forward to gain a true sense of your bluster... from the 3rd B.C. referendum undertaken in 2018. Perhaps you can advise why you haven't said diddlyWordOne about this 3rd referendum held, hey!

in any case, that 3rd referendum also failed biglySo - PR proponents getting only 38% of the total votes. Geezaz, and you're still flogging this after 3 referendum attempts to realize a change to PR being shot down?  ;D

let's get to your (falsely) touted "high" standards. The waldo's crack research team hasn't been able to provide me with the actual 2018 registered voter number, so I'll substitute 2017's number @3.25 million registered voters. The 2018 referendum realized ~1.378 million votes; accordingly, a 60% threshold would have been met if ~825K voters would have chosen PR... which is about 25% of the total number of registered voters. YesSirEeeBob, your claimed standards needed to change B.C's electoral system is "high"... 25% HIGH! Oh my member wilber, oh my!   (Note: if you can find the actual 2018 number of registered voters please contact my crack research team to update your claimed high standards - thanks in advance).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 26, 2020, 11:11:38 am
OMG thank you!!  Finally someone who is honest!!!

Well Gorgeous, you like something I said but there were at least three different thoughts contained in my message, so nobody could understand which of them I said that pleased you.

Or was it all of them?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 26, 2020, 12:16:11 pm
Well Gorgeous, you like something I said but there were at least three different thoughts contained in my message, so nobody could understand which of them I said that pleased you.

Or was it all of them?

When you said this:

Quote
It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.  Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.

So your priority isn't democracy, it's "progressive and liberal progress".  Again, thank you for being honest.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 26, 2020, 12:39:42 pm
When you said this:

So your priority isn't democracy, it's "progressive and liberal progress".  Again, thank you for being honest.

You may want to be careful on how you use words such as 'progressive' and 'liberal progress'.

If you meant Liberal capitalized then that opens another issue.

Otherwise you're just saying that I support 'democracy'.

PR and/or FPTP are neither pro-democratic or anti-democratic. You should know better and if you don't then you should learn at Dictionary.com.

I'm always open to a decent and rational discussion on the pros and cons of both.

And so to begin, my comment was that I suspect that PR would cause gridlock in government. If you applly yourself you might be able to come up with some specific example that supports your preference for PR. It's not going to be accepted as just a 'given'.

If I'm going to get into a debate with you I'll be basing my argument on the taxation question you're so fond of questioning.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 26, 2020, 08:04:56 pm
PR and/or FPTP are neither pro-democratic or anti-democratic. You should know better and if you don't then you should learn at Dictionary.com.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

"Definition of democracy

1a : government by the people especially : rule of the majority"


Having 51% of voters electing MP's that hold 100% of the power is more democratic than 39% of the voters electing MP's that hold 100% of the power as we have in our current system.

Quote
And so to begin, my comment was that I suspect that PR would cause gridlock in government. If you applly yourself you might be able to come up with some specific example that supports your preference for PR. It's not going to be accepted as just a 'given'.

If I'm going to get into a debate with you I'll be basing my argument on the taxation question you're so fond of questioning.

I'd rather a bit more gridlock if the majority have a say than unfettered power of the minority.  I tend to prefer minority governments in Canada because there's more consensus and other parties to put a check on the ruling party's power, despite causing more gridlock.  Right now the minority Liberals tend to team up with the NDP to get bills passed, which means the MP's of ~49% of voters are represented in these two law-making parties, instead of only 39.5% of voters represented in the previous Liberal majority government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 26, 2020, 08:12:19 pm
They're afeared of more democracy. Of more votes actually counting. Of people voting for a party that actually represents what they think rather than having to vote for the least worst because they think anything else will be wasting their vote
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 27, 2020, 12:06:11 am
They're afeared of more democracy. Of more votes actually counting. Of people voting for a party that actually represents what they think rather than having to vote for the least worst because they think anything else will be wasting their vote

ya, ya, you're such a proponent of, as you say, "more democracy"!  ;D

says the guy, you, who is quite content to accept a most unrepresentative 25% of the B.C. electorate being in a position to change the fundamental electoral system of the province of British Columbia. Says the guy, you, who repeatedly falsely touted the B.C. Systems Assembly group as a most democratic unbiased and independent source. Says the guy, you, who clearly has shown you have little actual understanding of the variants of PR while you feverishly push it under the guise of "more democracy" and the single word, 'proportional'!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 27, 2020, 11:50:12 am
If Albertans wanted a federal referenda on oil or capital punishment or abortion etc. it very likely wouldn't go their way, given that typically 60-70% of Canadians vote for leftwing parties in this country.

I'm not suggesting that Canadians overall would accept any of the three you're suggesting. Supposing that you're suggesting a ban on abortion or some sort of change to more acceptance of fossil fuels. I'm suggesting that it's likely that Alberta would  alone 

Quote
In fact, if 51% of the votes got about 51% of the seats and 51% of the power, leftwing parties in Canada would always be in control of government.  Not sure what you're worried about.

I don't think you're using the term 'leftwing' correctly. The NDP being the furthest left of the leftist parties, isn't really leftwing, is it?

Quote
Again, thank you for being honest.  Yes, why give people you disagree with any say or power, even if your views would likely still win out?  When it comes down to it it's about maintaining power and control.  At least you'll admit to your tyranny.

I haven't suggested that we depart from democracy, even though I'm cautious of allowing any referendums for deciding important questions such as our method of voting.

It's hard to imagine a situation in which both major parties will see it in their best interests to change.

And I still feel that the biggest drawback against PR would be gridlock. Can you try to invent an issue in which we could imagine how a PR system would work to find a solution to a major disagreement between the left and the right? If you or somebody could do that, we could possibly move this debate on to some sort of resolution.

The best I can offer would be going back to healthcare, as a two-tier system could be found acceptable. But maybe you could formulate something concerning taxation?

Whatever it could be, wouldn't that be progress here on this thread!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 27, 2020, 12:39:53 pm
member squiggy, thanks for your informative tag! Now fuckOffAndDie!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 27, 2020, 12:46:59 pm
ya, ya, you're such a proponent of, as you say, "more democracy"!  ;D

says the guy, you, who is quite content to accept a most unrepresentative 25% of the B.C. electorate being in a position to change the fundamental electoral system of the province of British Columbia. Says the guy, you, who repeatedly falsely touted the B.C. Systems Assembly group as a most democratic unbiased and independent source. Says the guy, you, who clearly has shown you have little actual understanding of the variants of PR while you feverishly push it under the guise of "more democracy" and the single word, 'proportional'!

I was not content to accept it at all. The last referendum was a farce, we could have wound up with a system that was the first choice of less than 20% of those who voted. It killed me to do it but I had to choose FPTP over that dogs breakfast. In the first two referendums when the choice was clear, I voted for STV.

The citizens assembly was picked at random from anyone who wanted to apply.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 27, 2020, 01:00:36 pm
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

"Definition of democracy

1a : government by the people especially : rule of the majority"


Having 51% of voters electing MP's that hold 100% of the power is more democratic than 39% of the voters electing MP's that hold 100% of the power as we have in our current system.

Yes, I would agree with that. But democracy isn't perfect and so it becomes a question on how we do the best to apply the principles.
And fwiw, democracy has proven to not work any better than other systems in a modern world where doing the right thing for the masses is of the most importance. But that's getting a bit ahead of the discussion here.

Quote
I'd rather a bit more gridlock if the majority have a say than unfettered power of the minority.

Your preference would need to be put to some test and that's the reason why I've asked you to invent some scenario in which the test could be imagined.
 Keep in mind how democracy has failed in the US too!

 
Quote
I tend to prefer minority governments in Canada because there's more consensus and other parties to put a check on the ruling party's power, despite causing more gridlock.  Right now the minority Liberals tend to team up with the NDP to get bills passed, which means the MP's of ~49% of voters are represented in these two law-making parties, instead of only 39.5% of voters represented in the previous Liberal majority government.

I like it too right now with the NDP or some other party's MP's being needed by the Liberals, but then that's suitable to my personal politics while it's not suitable to others. And yet I still have to question the political priorities of the NDP at times. It 'does' though accomplish some of the goals of PR without having to go all the way there.

If a situation should develop within a PR system in which one party's priorities are close to the opposite of the other major party that is supported by a large per centage of the people, the gridlock could be created in a way that it's not created with the NDP supporting the Liberals.

And so once again I suggest that we try to create a scenario in which the PR system could be imagined to be tested. I'll suggest healthcare for lack of something more suitable as a bone of contention. Can you take that further by introducing something specific on which the two major parties would cooperate to make PR work.

I'm not particulary stuck with that topic, but you've failed to recommend anything else, even though I said I would be agreeable to discuss your personal issue of taxation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 29, 2020, 01:21:07 pm
Breathless media reporting this week notwithstanding, Canada is in the first 5 deliveries for Pfizer and in the first batch deliveries for Moderna.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 29, 2020, 02:55:34 pm
Breathless media reporting this week notwithstanding, Canada is in the first 5 deliveries for Pfizer and in the first batch deliveries for Moderna.
Interesting that the information came from the Moderna CEO, not the government. What he actually said was we are not that far behind other countries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 29, 2020, 04:40:20 pm
Interesting that the information came from the Moderna CEO, not the government. What he actually said was we are not that far behind other countries.


re: Moderna, as one of the seven vaccine makers the {Liberal} government secured agreements with: on Aug. 5 with Moderna for 20 million doses of its mRNA vaccine, with the option to procure an additional 36 million doses - Moderna's vaccine candidate is currently in Stage 3 clinical trials and preliminary data released two weeks ago showed it appears to be 94.5 per cent effective.

Quote from: Noubar Afeyan, co-founder and chairman of Moderna
Canada is not at the back of the line. Because Canada was among the first countries to make a pre-order with Moderna, the country is guaranteed to receive a certain portion of the company's initial batch of doses — as long as the vaccine proves safe and effective and is given regulatory approval. Discussions to increase orders are ongoing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 29, 2020, 04:46:08 pm


This seems to be saying that Canada could cancel out of an ineffective vaccine? Makes sense that precaustion would be taken.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 29, 2020, 04:53:00 pm
This seems to be saying that Canada could cancel out of an ineffective vaccine? Makes sense that precaustion would be taken.

yes - all agreements are conditioned upon the candidate trial success... and receiving appropriate 'regulatory review & approval'
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 29, 2020, 04:59:57 pm
Interesting that the information came from the Moderna CEO, not the government. What he actually said was we are not that far behind other countries.

He said Canada would get doses from the initial batch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 29, 2020, 05:00:55 pm
Interesting that the information came from the Moderna CEO, not the government.

Why is that interesting? The government doesn't have information on which countries are in which order the way that the company would.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 29, 2020, 05:14:54 pm
He said Canada would get doses from the initial batch.

Behind some other countries. I'm hoping we get it early, I'd love all my skepticism to be wrong and get my shots as soon as they are available.


Quote
Why is that interesting? The government doesn't have information on which countries are in which order the way that the company would.

Why wouldn't we? We know plenty about what some other countries have ordered. How can countries plan if they don't know where they are on the list?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 29, 2020, 06:54:23 pm
Behind some other countries. I'm hoping we get it early, I'd love all my skepticism to be wrong and get my shots as soon as they are available.

He didn't say that in the interview. He said that Canada was the first country to secure a major order. When you closed the deal is less important that the negotiation closing date. Anita Anand is a contract law professor on leave, so....

Quote
Why wouldn't we? We know plenty about what some other countries have ordered. How can countries plan if they don't know where they are on the list?

We know exactly what Canada has ordered. Other countries are making guesses around approval and rollout dates. Approval can't be pinpointed, nor should it be. The process has to play out. One positive from Moderna is that they seem to be willing to ship to Canada after FDA emergency use authorization even if Health Canada has not yet approved their vaccine. Pfizer apparently will not ship to Canada until Health Canada approves their vaccine, because of the unique challenges in keeping it efficacious.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 29, 2020, 07:14:36 pm
Pfizer apparently will not ship to Canada until Health Canada approves their vaccine, because of the unique challenges in keeping it efficacious.
Apparently keeping it efficacious is not as big a challenge as we're being led to believe.  At least that's the impression I got from the Pfizer release I linked to in the COVID culture thread.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 29, 2020, 07:46:52 pm
Apparently keeping it efficacious is not as big a challenge as we're being led to believe.  At least that's the impression I got from the Pfizer release I linked to in the COVID culture thread.

I think it's that Pfizer has some pretty rigorous quality controls that they want to stick to.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 29, 2020, 08:50:01 pm
Perhaps its Pfizer's capacity to deal with it at the manufacturing end. Once a plane load lands at Vancouver for example however it could likely be shipped from there to the rest of BC well within the 15 days it can be stored in a cardboard box.  I'm sure its not as easy as I'm making it out but it just doesn't seem it'll be as hard to handle as first thought and especially once we have it in hand.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 29, 2020, 09:05:34 pm
Interesting that the information came from the Moderna CEO, not the government. What he actually said was we are not that far behind other countries.

I'm not putting much faith in what any corporate spokesman or politician says here, they have every incentive to fudge the truth, we'll find out when countries start getting the vaccines.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 29, 2020, 09:25:13 pm
I'm not putting much faith in what any corporate spokesman or politician says here, they have every incentive to fudge the truth, we'll find out when countries start getting the vaccines.
By that token there's as much or more incentive to blow what isn't known out of proportion too.

Do people really think we need the military to distribute the vaccine? I can't think of anything that would freak out anti-vaxxers and conspira-tards faster.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 29, 2020, 09:36:47 pm
By that token there's as much or more incentive to blow what isn't known out of proportion too.

Do people really think we need the military to distribute the vaccine? I can't think of anything that would freak out anti-vaxxers and conspira-tards faster.

Seems like a good idea to mobilize all resources to get people vaccinated but i'm not sure what the military can do, unless nurses start training them to give vaccines.  Not sure I want people trained to kill jabbing me in the arm with needles haha.  Apparently they will help with the planning and logistics of the rollout, and also going to remote rural and indigenous areas.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 29, 2020, 09:40:14 pm
By that token there's as much or more incentive to blow what isn't known out of proportion too.

Do people really think we need the military to distribute the vaccine? I can't think of anything that would freak out anti-vaxxers and conspira-tards faster.

I bet none of them would complain when the military showed up to save their home from a forest fire, flood or clean up after an ice storm. All those military personnel that went in to help out in Ontario LTC homes must have been real pricks.

Why not use the military, we are already paying them.

Screw anti vaxxers and conspiratards.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 29, 2020, 09:45:50 pm
Seems like a good idea to mobilize all resources to get people vaccinated but i'm not sure what the military can do, unless nurses start training them to give vaccines.  Not sure I want people trained to kill jabbing me in the arm with needles haha.  Apparently they will help with the planning and logistics of the rollout, and also going to remote rural and indigenous areas.
I'm sure the army will have a place. I'd be just as happy leave much of the logistics up to Pfizer, Fedex, Bonnie Henry and my local health clinic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 01, 2020, 01:44:19 pm
So...it turns out the co-founder and chairman of Moderna is a Canadian...

Quote
“Canada’s not at the back of the line,” Afeyan said.

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/braid-moderna-boss-wont-push-canada-aside-in-rush-for-covid-19-vaccine
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on December 01, 2020, 01:58:41 pm
The big question now is on how much any of the three vaccines is being pushed ahead on speculation of them being 90% effective? If not all three?

So what if all three are lying to make sure they're kept in the running for the billions to be made?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 01, 2020, 02:11:12 pm
The big question now is on how much any of the three vaccines is being pushed ahead on speculation of them being 90% effective? If not all three?

So what if all three are lying to make sure they're kept in the running for the billions to be made?

Speculation?   What speculation?

Are they rushing?  Of course they are.  There’s a pandemic they’re trying to cure!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 01, 2020, 02:16:03 pm
The big question now is on how much any of the three vaccines is being pushed ahead on speculation of them being 90% effective? If not all three?

So what if all three are lying to make sure they're kept in the running for the billions to be made?

That's why there is an approval process.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 01, 2020, 02:34:12 pm
Speculation?   What speculation?

Are they rushing?  Of course they are.  There’s a pandemic they’re trying to cure!
The cure is here and as much as two years sooner than many hoped for just a few short months ago.  Recall the adage about wasting a good emergency well now the emergency is that the time left to exploit it might be running out.

Lately I've had ooh, Canada... playing in a flat monotone in the background of my mind but it's been crowded by Happy Day's are Here Again. It just kinda started as a mild hmmm the last day or so and today I'm whistling it and I expect I might break out in full throated song any minute.  I'm almost feeling like a giddy little girl in fairy wings again!

Of course I can still hear the alien in my chest slithering around from time to time but **** him too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on December 01, 2020, 02:41:02 pm
The cure is here and as much as two years sooner than many hoped for just a few short months ago.

Everybody knows the cure isn't here yet of course, but there's a possibility that it could be delivered to the people in the next few months. There's also a good possibility that it won't be delivered to the people before the fall, or even later.

wilbur and squid, stop the spamming or I'll be forced to start deleting you two again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 01, 2020, 02:53:32 pm
Everybody knows the cure isn't here yet of course, but there's a possibility that it could be delivered to the people in the next few months. There's also a good possibility that it won't be delivered to the people before the fall, or even later.

wilbur and squid, stop the spamming or I'll be forced to start deleting you two again.

Try and delete it fucktard.  This isn’t your topic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on December 01, 2020, 02:58:54 pm
Not on this topic squid, I just deleted one of your comments on one of my topics. Don't make me delete any more just becasue you have bad feelings right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 01, 2020, 03:02:25 pm
Not on this topic squid, I just deleted one of your comments on one of my topics. Don't make me delete any more just becasue you have bad feelings right now.

Maybe forget the feeble attempts at a power trip OK l'il buddy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 01, 2020, 03:07:07 pm
Everybody knows the cure isn't here yet of course, but there's a possibility that it could be delivered to the people in the next few months. There's also a good possibility that it won't be delivered to the people before the fall, or even later.

wilbur and squid, stop the spamming or I'll be forced to start deleting you two again.


This isn't your thread bonehead.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on December 01, 2020, 03:14:03 pm
Maybe forget the feeble attempts at a power trip OK l'il buddy.

Stop it Omni or I'll be forced to consider you as a spammer too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 01, 2020, 03:18:06 pm
Stop it Omni or I'll be forced to consider you as a spammer too.

I refer you back to wilber's latest.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 01, 2020, 03:25:13 pm
Not on this topic squid, I just deleted one of your comments on one of my topics. Don't make me delete any more just becasue you have bad feelings right now.

Oooo.....   not a deletion from your shitty topics!!!   What will i do now?????   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on December 01, 2020, 03:40:10 pm
All three of the spammers have been punished with one deletion each.

(further spamming won't be tolerated)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 01, 2020, 03:44:08 pm
Are you...purposely trying to ruin a system that has worked well for two years?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 01, 2020, 04:18:06 pm
All three of the spammers have been punished with one deletion each.

(further spamming won't be tolerated)

Furthere "punishment" will be sought.  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 01, 2020, 04:37:12 pm
Are you...purposely trying to ruin a system that has worked well for two years?

Seems like he thinks this is his forum.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 01, 2020, 05:31:34 pm
Are you...purposely trying to ruin a system that has worked well for two years?

Yes he is.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 01, 2020, 05:34:26 pm
Not on this topic squid, I just deleted one of your comments on one of my topics. Don't make me delete any more just becasue you have bad feelings right now.

I can tell how good of a person you are by how you treat the people you disagree with.

Trump's petty revenge tactics seem to have rubbed off on you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 01, 2020, 05:37:34 pm
All three of the spammers have been punished with one deletion each.

(further spamming won't be tolerated)

Due to your tactics I will cease posting on any of your topics until the weekend.  Further ass-hat behaviour will result in longer sanctions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on December 02, 2020, 11:17:56 am
Are you...purposely trying to ruin a system that has worked well for two years?

No, it was just a test to see how long the spammers would hook into the game and stop their whining and spamming on my threads. I'm quite tired of them now.

Something needed to be done. So we'll see how the normal people deal with it and if it's in a positive way then I'll continue. If not, well there are my other boards.

Maybe if you hadn't objected to new threads that were meant to help this forum grow, they never would have got the idea planted in their skulls that more threads were a bad thing?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 02, 2020, 12:57:55 pm
Maybe if you hadn't objected to new threads that were meant to help this forum grow, they never would have got the idea planted in their skulls that more threads were a bad thing?

please sir - the invasionOfTheThreads was self-defeating if only in terms of "watering down" the overall and burying other threads... and, of course, your fans had an easy target; one ably assisted by the most suspect sources you purposely chose. As I just did in one of your newest threads, the same topic you sourced from the Russian propaganda machine was available in the mainstream. So, in the name of the want to grow the forum you're expressing, the waldo might suggest a % compilation of like topics as a start... perhaps more compilation will lead to less interpreted spamming - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 02, 2020, 04:44:04 pm
Geez Louise.  The Liberals have spent more in COVID handouts than every other country.  Canada is #1 in government deficit as % of GDP, and #1 in real household disposable income per capita. (graphs in article) ??? 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-ottawa-is-not-only-shouldering-the-potential-debts-of-canadians-it/

"Ottawa gives households $7 for every dollar of income lost in private sector

...But Ottawa continues to dramatically overshoot that mark, with household income data released Tuesday showing that the emergency support programs rolled out to cushion the economic blow of the coronavirus have outstripped the loss in earnings since the end of March. Ottawa is not only shouldering the potential debts of Canadians – it has borrowed tens of billions of dollars to pad their bank accounts.

Statistics Canada data show that primary household income, or private-sector earnings, barely dropped between the first quarter of 2020 and third quarter, falling by just 1 per cent, or $15.2-billion to $1.52-trillion. But transfers from government, which include existing programs such as employment insurance plus new coronavirus-era programs, made up for that drop many times over. Those transfers rose by $103.8-billion from the first quarter to the third quarter, meaning that the government effectively gave households nearly $7 for each dollar of lost private-sector income. Those figures are seasonally adjusted and stated on an annualized basis.

Once other costs are taken into account, household disposable income rose 7.6 per cent between the first and third quarters, while edging down slightly from the second quarter, when the imbalance between income losses and government transfers was even greater. Canada is virtually alone in seeing such a spike in household income, with only the United States coming close to matching that surge. (Both countries placed much more emphasis on sending funds to individuals rather than the wage subsidies that were the policy focus in other advanced economies.)
...
For some economists, the extra billions of dollars sent to households is proof that the new income support programs are simply too generous, and exceed the goal of protecting Canadians from an economic catastrophe. “We probably went overboard with too much spending,” said Jack Mintz, president’s fellow at the school of public policy at the University of Calgary.
...
Mr. Mintz said the excess in payments likely stems from the structure of the Canada Emergency Response Benefit, which paid a flat $500 to qualifying recipients, no matter what their employment income was. That meant low-paid workers, especially those with part-time jobs, could see their incomes rise."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 02, 2020, 05:25:25 pm
Don't forget the forecast 121 to 136 billion that will be added next year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 02, 2020, 05:56:45 pm
We used to be the fiscal envy of the G7.  Then Trudeau was elected.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 02, 2020, 06:04:47 pm

Maybe if you hadn't objected to new threads that were meant to help this forum grow, they never would have got the idea planted in their skulls that more threads were a bad thing?

In the past 12 days you  have started 16 new threads on the American politics section alone. It that doesn't qualify as spam, nothing does.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 02, 2020, 07:10:53 pm
That doesn't include the ones JMT deleted.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 03, 2020, 10:25:43 am
We used to be the fiscal envy of the G7.  Then Trudeau was elected.

Which G7 countries has a better net debt position?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 03, 2020, 10:14:14 pm
Which G7 countries has a better net debt position?

I read around 2026 when hopefully this is all over our projected debt/gdp is to be around 55%, which will be up from i think 39% before COVID.  So we should still be in decent shape.

Thank heavens for the 90's economy and the Chretien/Martin gov, we started from a decent position.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 04, 2020, 09:17:08 am
Which G7 countries has a better net debt position?

Actually when you factor in all government debt, we don’t look that great in comparison. We were 89% three years ago, about the same as the UK. God only knows what it will be when this is over.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 04, 2020, 09:42:56 am
Actually when you factor in all government debt, we don’t look that great in comparison. We were 89% three years ago, about the same as the UK. God only knows what it will be when this is over.

We don’t look good on general government gross debt. We still have the best general government net debt position.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 04, 2020, 11:55:36 am
We don’t look good on general government gross debt. We still have the best general government net debt position.

Still, gross debt is what has to be serviced by tax payers, unless you are going to sell off assets. We are still much higher than Australia and all the Scandinavian countries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 04, 2020, 12:35:21 pm
We used to be the fiscal envy of the G7.  Then Trudeau was elected.

no - per your norm, you're woefully uninformed

(https://i.imgur.com/2RrMGDm.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 04, 2020, 12:41:15 pm
Still, gross debt is what has to be serviced by tax payers, unless you are going to sell off assets. We are still much higher than Australia and all the Scandinavian countries.

Debt servicing costs are projected to increase to a whopping 1.2% of GDP by 2026.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 04, 2020, 12:43:13 pm
Debt servicing costs are projected to increase to a whopping 1.2% of GDP by 2026.

If interest rates stay at 1%. I don't know how you can say that when we are going to add at least another 120 billion to the debt in 2021 with no end in sight.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 04, 2020, 01:00:41 pm
If interest rates stay at 1%. I don't know how you can say that when we are going to add at least another 120 billion to the debt in 2021 with no end in sight.

Interest rates have generally been pretty predictable, looking at the charts.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 04, 2020, 01:27:54 pm
Actually when you factor in all government debt, we don’t look that great in comparison. We were 89% three years ago, about the same as the UK. God only knows what it will be when this is over.

600%
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 04, 2020, 01:33:07 pm
Interest rates have generally been pretty predictable, looking at the charts.

Let's keep kissing the ass of the Saudi's and we might be ok.

(https://files.lysanderfunds.com/2014/12/Interest-Rates-are-Rising-Image.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 04, 2020, 01:50:30 pm
Let's keep kissing the ass of the Saudi's and we might be ok.

(https://files.lysanderfunds.com/2014/12/Interest-Rates-are-Rising-Image.png)

That was a relative anomaly in the lounger frame though, right?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 04, 2020, 03:10:12 pm
Let's keep kissing the ass of the Saudi's and we might be ok.

What do the Saudis have to do with it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 04, 2020, 03:56:46 pm
That was a relative anomaly in the lounger frame though, right?

Looks like it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 04, 2020, 03:57:32 pm
What do the Saudis have to do with it?

Not specifically Saudis, but middle east oil.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 04, 2020, 03:59:43 pm
Not specifically Saudis, but middle east oil.

What does mid-east oil have to do with Canada’s interest rate?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 04, 2020, 04:26:04 pm
Actually when you factor in all government debt, we don’t look that great in comparison. We were 89% three years ago, about the same as the UK. God only knows what it will be when this is over.
Whatever it is everyone will be in the same boat but just arguing they're in different oceans.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 04, 2020, 04:29:21 pm
What does mid-east oil have to do with Canada’s interest rate?

Oil is the life-blood of our economy.  If the price of oil rises, so does the cost of making/buying products, which is called inflation.  When there is significant inflation, the feds raise interest rates to stop it.  This isn't theory as it already happened in Canada:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1980s_recession

"The early 1980s recession was a severe economic recession that affected much of the world between approximately the start of 1980 and early 1983.[1] It is widely considered to have been the most severe recession since World War Two.[2][3] A key event leading to the recession was the 1979 energy crisis, mostly caused by the Iranian Revolution which caused a disruption to the global oil supply, which saw oil prices rising sharply in 1979 and early 1980.  The sharp rise in oil prices pushed the already high rates of inflation in several major advanced countries to new double-digit highs, with countries such as the United States, Canada, West Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom and Japan tightening their monetary policies by increasing interest rates in order control the inflation. These G7 countries each, in fact, had "double-dip" recessions involving short declines in economic output in parts of 1980 followed by a short period of expansion, in turn followed by a steeper, longer period of economic contraction starting sometime in 1981 and ending in the last half of 1982 or in early 1983.[4] Most of these countries experienced stagflation, a situation of both high interest rates and high unemployment rates.

Globally, while some countries experienced downturns in economic output in 1980 and/or 1981, the broadest and sharpest worldwide decline of economic activity and the largest increase in unemployment was in 1982, with the World Bank naming the recession the "global recession of 1982."[1] Even after major economies, such as the United States and Japan exited the recession relatively early, many countries were in recession into 1983 and high unemployment would continue to affect most OECD nations until at least 1985.[2] Long-term effects of the early 1980s recession contributed to the Latin American debt crisis, long-lasting slowdowns in the Caribbean and Sub-Saharan African countries,[1] the US savings and loans crisis, and a general adoption of neoliberal economic policies throughout the 1980s and 1990s.
"
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 04, 2020, 04:31:35 pm
Whatever it is everyone will be in the same boat but just arguing they're in different oceans.

If you stab yourself in the eye it doesn't make you feel much better if the guy next to you stabs himself too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 04, 2020, 04:39:02 pm
If you stab yourself in the eye it doesn't make you feel much better if the guy next to you stabs himself too.
And yet you both still feel the same.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 04, 2020, 05:47:29 pm
Interesting local story. A local LTC home got hit with its first infections at the middle of November. They have 16 workers infected and have been looking for help with things like cleaning, kitchen and grunt work. Out of desperation they are now hiring patient's family members as regular employees and getting a good response. They thought that with all the cutbacks there would be lots of hotel workers looking for work but it hasn't been so. "We run adds, we get 35 plus responses but when we call, they are on EI and just want to be able to say they have been applying".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 04, 2020, 06:19:23 pm
Oil is the life-blood of our economy.  If the price of oil rises, so does the cost of making/buying products, which is called inflation.  When there is significant inflation, the feds raise interest rates to stop it.  This isn't theory as it already happened in Canada:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1980s_recession

"The early 1980s recession was a severe economic recession that affected much of the world between approximately the start of 1980 and early 1983.[1] It is widely considered to have been the most severe recession since World War Two.[2][3] A key event leading to the recession was the 1979 energy crisis, mostly caused by the Iranian Revolution which caused a disruption to the global oil supply, which saw oil prices rising sharply in 1979 and early 1980.  The sharp rise in oil prices pushed the already high rates of inflation in several major advanced countries to new double-digit highs, with countries such as the United States, Canada, West Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom and Japan tightening their monetary policies by increasing interest rates in order control the inflation. These G7 countries each, in fact, had "double-dip" recessions involving short declines in economic output in parts of 1980 followed by a short period of expansion, in turn followed by a steeper, longer period of economic contraction starting sometime in 1981 and ending in the last half of 1982 or in early 1983.[4] Most of these countries experienced stagflation, a situation of both high interest rates and high unemployment rates.

Globally, while some countries experienced downturns in economic output in 1980 and/or 1981, the broadest and sharpest worldwide decline of economic activity and the largest increase in unemployment was in 1982, with the World Bank naming the recession the "global recession of 1982."[1] Even after major economies, such as the United States and Japan exited the recession relatively early, many countries were in recession into 1983 and high unemployment would continue to affect most OECD nations until at least 1985.[2] Long-term effects of the early 1980s recession contributed to the Latin American debt crisis, long-lasting slowdowns in the Caribbean and Sub-Saharan African countries,[1] the US savings and loans crisis, and a general adoption of neoliberal economic policies throughout the 1980s and 1990s.
"


The sharp rise in oil prices pushed the already high rates of inflation in several major advanced countries to new double-digit highs...

We just experienced years of high oil prices with no increase in interest rates.  In fact, Canada made buckets of money on it....

So please explain how mid-east oil will affect our interest rates in the future, not 40 years ago.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 11:59:22 am
So much for transparency and accountability. This will not end well. In fact, it won't end at all.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tracking-unprecedented-federal-coronavirus-spending-1.5827045

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 12:06:08 pm
So much for transparency and accountability. This will not end well. In fact, it won't end at all.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tracking-unprecedented-federal-coronavirus-spending-1.5827045

Let's be honest - we knew this from the start. All of these programs were designed with trust then verify philosophy, because they had to be.  There's no way to do this all with up front accountability and get $1B per day out the door.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 12:06:53 pm
The cost of low interest rates on the federal pension plan is incredible. It's highlighted in blue:

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 12:21:15 pm
Let's be honest - we knew this from the start. All of these programs were designed with trust then verify philosophy, because they had to be.  There's no way to do this all with up front accountability and get $1B per day out the door.

So why are other countries so open about where this money is going? We can't even get the information after the fact, not because it isn't there but because government flat out refuses to give it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 12:23:47 pm
So why are other countries so open about where this money is going?

You can see where the money is going with the same level of detail that anyone else is providing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 12:24:43 pm
The cost of low interest rates on the federal pension plan is incredible. It's highlighted in blue:
d

Interest rates are directly linked to lender's confidence in your currency and ability to repay.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 12:25:09 pm
You can see where the money is going with the same level of detail that anyone else is providing.

No you can't, read the article.

Quote
But in most cases, the federal government refuses to provide details that may serve to identify who has received these funds — even when it's a business. For example, while the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation has recently responded to an access to information request by providing CBC News with more than 330,000 applications made under its $2-billion Canada emergency commercial rent assistance (CECRA) program, the names of all landlords and tenants were redacted. And CMHC refuses to release them, citing privacy laws.

That stands in stark contrast to other Western countries that provide context and details about their pandemic spending. Like the U.S. government, for example, which has almost full disclosure on funding for businesses via a searchable website that details the names of companies, their location and the amounts received.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 12:29:16 pm
d

Interest rates are directly linked to lender's confidence in your currency and ability to repay.

The important take away is that under current accounting rules, low interest rates are just as much if not more damaging than high interest rates to federal finances.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 12:30:24 pm
No you can't, read the article.

Did you not read this part of the article?

Quote
But in most cases, the federal government refuses to provide details that may serve to identify who has received these funds — even when it's a business. For example, while the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation has recently responded to an access to information request by providing CBC News with more than 330,000 applications made under its $2-billion Canada emergency commercial rent assistance (CECRA) program, the names of all landlords and tenants were redacted. And CMHC refuses to release them, citing privacy laws.

The same would apply to corporations, and even other types of businesses. We need to know the overall numbers. The Canada Revenue agency can worry about enforcement.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 12:34:41 pm
Did you not read this part of the article?

The same would apply to corporations, and even other types of businesses. We need to know the overall numbers. The Canada Revenue agency can worry about enforcement.

Revenue Canada has a reputation for going after low hanging fruit. But don't worry, be happy, big brother is looking after you, you don't need to know anything and you don't need investigative media poking around disturbing your betters.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 12:36:09 pm
Revenue Canada has a reputation for going after low hanging fruit. But don't worry, be happy, big brother is looking after you, you don't need to know anything and you don't need investigative media poking around disturbing your betters.

It's not the job of the Government of Canada to out people and corporations who needed pandemic assistance. Corporate filings will require that info to be public. Privacy laws exist, and should be followed. I don't want to live in a rescue shaming country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 12:41:36 pm
It's not the job of the Government of Canada to out people and corporations who needed pandemic assistance. Corporate filings will require that info to be public. Privacy laws exist, and should be followed. I don't want to live in a rescue shaming country.
You are such a trusting soul. The government won't get back even a quarter of what has been given to people who shouldn't have got it. Any really bad screw ups will be conveniently swept under the rug. No one will ever know because people are to apathetic to care.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 12:45:03 pm
You are such a trusting soul. The government won't get back even a quarter of what has been given to people who shouldn't have got it. Any really bad screw ups will be conveniently swept under the rug. No one will ever know because people are to apathetic to care.

When you're putting out a fire, you don't worry about how much water you used. The money kept the economy afloat and people fed and housed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 12:52:52 pm
When you're putting out a fire, you don't worry about how much water you used. The money kept the economy afloat and people fed and housed.

Money isn't water and wouldn't you even want to know where it went after the fact. No post mortem to see what went right and what went wrong. No oversight or accountability at all. It's your money, don't you care?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 01:03:24 pm
Money isn't water and wouldn't you even want to know where it went after the fact. No post mortem to see what went right and what went wrong. No oversight or accountability at all. It's your money, don't you care?

All of the accountability is backloaded, by design. We knew that in April.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on December 06, 2020, 01:03:42 pm
I support in general the idea that spending that fuckton of money to keep businesses from collapsing, jobs from vanishing, people from losing their homes, and all of these other things, was a good investment.  But I reject the idea that we shouldn't worry about where it all went.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 01:05:09 pm
All of the accountability is backloaded, by design. We knew that in April.

Then why is government refusing to give information?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 01:08:26 pm
"Privacy considerations" have become the knee jerk, catch all response governments in this country use to prevent oversight and accountability.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 01:09:11 pm
I support in general the idea that spending that fuckton of money to keep businesses from collapsing, jobs from vanishing, people from losing their homes, and all of these other things, was a good investment.  But I reject the idea that we shouldn't worry about where it all went.

 -k

I'm not saying that we shouldn't worry about where it all went. I'm saying that the time to do that is tax filing season of the upcoming year. That was the way the systems were designed from the very beginning of this rollout, and for good reason. It was the only way to achieve the necessary speed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 01:10:04 pm
"Privacy considerations" have become the knee jerk, catch all response governments in this country use to prevent oversight and accountability.

We have relatively strong privacy laws at both levels of government in this country. We even have commissioners to ensure those laws are followed by government. It's not knee jerk.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 01:10:54 pm
Then why is government refusing to give information?

I would posit, it's because a lot of the information doesn't exist, and that other information isn't at this point able to be legally released.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 01:11:15 pm
We have relatively strong privacy laws at both levels of government in this country. We even have commissioners to ensure those laws are followed by government. It's not knee jerk.

Yes it is. They are saying we don't want to, try and get it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 01:12:05 pm
I would posit, it's because a lot of the information doesn't exist, and that other information isn't at this point able to be legally released.

You mean they don't know where the money went? Even more reason to be concerned.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 01:17:37 pm
You mean they don't know where the money went? Even more reason to be concerned.

No, I mean that the information just isn't in a yet accessible format to be released. You have to remember that at the moment, there are several things affecting the resource allocation of Ottawa:

Social distancing requirements
Work from home logistical realities
Government support programs for COVID
COVID vaccine rollout
Support personnel for overwhelmed provinces
The massive and unprecedented document request from Parliament

Creating this data for legal release just isn't likely to be very high on the totem poll right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 02:06:50 pm
It's not the job of the Government of Canada to out people and corporations who needed pandemic assistance. Corporate filings will require that info to be public. Privacy laws exist, and should be followed. I don't want to live in a rescue shaming country.
If they needed it they would have been eligible (if the programs were made properly).  These benefits weren't a free-for-all for anyone to take regardless of reason.

Everyone knew that fast relief meant little to no verification at the outset, as you said.  There's also privacy concerns...is it legal to disclose income that individuals are getting from gov?  I'm not sure how that works in other programs, like EI, CPP etc.

It's a bit concerning that people like Kevin Page are concerned, he knows far better than us.  It seems probable to me that with many people getting benefits they aren't entitled to (by nature of the program) the optics on the gov will be bad so they would have incentive to suppress info.

Knowing how government works in other programs, the amount of effort the gov will dedicate to go after overpayments will be directly related to whether it's in their benefit or not, despite the law.  If it costs more to hire/pay public servants to claw that money back than the amount of what they will actually get back they won't bother...unless they're worried about optics of public perception of doing that, which they are (for now).

For other programs like EI and CPP they're decent at going after overpayments, it just might take a long time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 02:22:53 pm
When you're putting out a fire, you don't worry about how much water you used. The money kept the economy afloat and people fed and housed.

There are many dishonest people in this country who attempt to defraud our government many times a day, 365 days a year.  The only thing that stops them are rules that are enforced.  Not everyone who applied is eligible, or in need.  If people get the money who weren't deserving it isn't fair to the honest people who didn't apply.

The people who got into trouble due to the COVID lockdown were people who lost work due to COVID and businesses/orgs who lost business/funds or were shut down due to COVID.  The rules were clear when they signed up.  They signed a legally binding contract when they applied and had informed consent.  These programs weren't a free-for-all slush fund where the gov laid out a money pot for anyone to grab based on scouts honour.

I'm totally fine with the "give now, verify later" approach, it was the only way to do it in any kind of reasonable timeframe.  It takes several months to even hire a new employee in the public service to verify this stuff, then they need to be trained, and be a provided a computer somewhere to work on etc.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 02:26:29 pm
"Privacy considerations" have become the knee jerk, catch all response governments in this country use to prevent oversight and accountability.

Privacy is a valid concern.  People have rights under the law.  I just don't know what they are in this case.  Do you? 

I also get the concern for public transparency and accountability.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 02:28:52 pm
I would posit, it's because a lot of the information doesn't exist, and that other information isn't at this point able to be legally released.

Anyone who got any money from these programs would be on record right now, the info exists it just has to be pulled.  I agree with the latter.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 06, 2020, 02:29:23 pm
Knowing how government works in other programs, the amount of effort the gov will dedicate to go after overpayments will be directly related to whether it's in their benefit or not, despite the law.  If it costs more to hire/pay public servants to claw that money back than the amount of what they will actually get back they won't bother...unless they're worried about optics of public perception of doing that, which they are (for now).

Quote
per an early Oct statement from CRA, Canadians have voluntarily made more than 830,000 repayments of COVID-19 emergency aid benefits to which they were not entitled - includes repayments from recipients of the Canada emergency response benefit (CERB) and Canada emergency student benefit (CESB).

CRA also stated it has received more than 20,000 confidential tips about suspected cheating related to COVID-19 emergency aid programs; further stating that all anonymous tips are reviewed for evidence of fraud.

Quote from: Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
We took on debt so Canadians wouldn't have to
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 02:41:43 pm
Privacy is a valid concern.  People have rights under the law.  I just don't know what they are in this case.  Do you? 

I also get the concern for public transparency and accountability.

If a company is getting taxpayer money, taxpayers have a right to know about it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 02:45:42 pm
Do you guys somehow ascribe to the American notion that corporations are people. It sure sounds like it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 02:57:53 pm
If a company is getting taxpayer money, taxpayers have a right to know about it.

The privacy rules for other grant/benefit programs apply here.

I'd agree with benefits to corps in the very least.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 03:08:05 pm
Do you guys somehow ascribe to the American notion that corporations are people. It sure sounds like it.

Corporations will have to disclose the income by law. It isn't the place of the government at this point.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 03:09:13 pm
The privacy rules for other grant/benefit programs apply here.

I'd agree with benefits to corps in the very least.

Why, it just gives governments the ability to shovel money to corps with no accountability.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 03:10:46 pm
Corporations will have to disclose the income by law. It isn't the place of the government at this point.

Of course it is, it's your bloody money, not  the friggin government's. It isn't a matter of national security People won't die if the information is released.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 03:13:18 pm
Of course it is, it's your bloody money, not  the friggin government's. It isn't a matter of national security People won't die if the information is released.

And those corporations will be held accountable for that money.

I also disagree that it's my money, but we won't go down that rabbit hole again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 03:15:41 pm
And those corporations will be held accountable for that money.

I also disagree that it's my money, but we won't go down that rabbit hole again.

You don't pay taxes, or it's because the money is just coming fresh off the printing press?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 03:24:57 pm
Corporations will have to disclose the income by law. It isn't the place of the government at this point.

They don't need to disclose it for the gov to know they have it.  It's in government databases.  They don't give out money without a record of the application and the payment.

If this was publicly accessible information the media would be able to ATIP it like anyone else and the gov would have no legal choice but to release it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 03:26:31 pm
Why, it just gives governments the ability to shovel money to corps with no accountability.

I meant I agree that corps should be on record for what they got.  You can make a case for individuals too.  It's literally yours and my money, it doesn't belong to the Liberal gov or any party in gov.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 03:31:56 pm
I also disagree that it's my money, but we won't go down that rabbit hole again.

It belongs to 36 million people, and we give the current gov our consent to manage it according to the law, and public servants the ability to administer according to law and gov policy on our behalf.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 03:51:26 pm
They don't need to disclose it for the gov to know they have it.

No, but that's how the public can learn about it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 03:52:31 pm
I meant I agree that corps should be on record for what they got.  You can make a case for individuals too.  It's literally yours and my money, it doesn't belong to the Liberal gov or any party in gov.

Yes, lets shame the people who needed help, because it's 'our money.'
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 04:03:49 pm
No, but that's how the public can learn about it.

So the public has to look at the financial statements of every company to find out who got public money?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 04:07:15 pm
So the public has to look at the financial statements of every company to find out who got public money?

The question for the public isn't who got the money. That's not always our business. I don't know who gets money from a whole host of government programs. The government needs to worry about accountability. We need to worry about the success of the overall program.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 04:15:00 pm
The question for the public isn't who got the money. That's not always our business. I don't know who gets money from a whole host of government programs. The government needs to worry about accountability. We need to worry about the success of the overall program.
How do we hold governments accountable if everything they do is a secret?

The fact that you personally don't know is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 04:16:53 pm
How do we hold governments accountable if everything they do is a secret?

It's not going to be a secret. We haven't even reached the larger accountability phase of any of these programs at this point, even if there's been some preliminary follow up. The crisis is still ongoing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 04:17:50 pm
It's not going to be a secret. We haven't even reached the larger accountability phase of any of these programs at this point, even if there's been some preliminary follow up. The crisis is still ongoing.

It is a secret if the government has the information but refuses to release it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 04:20:43 pm
It is a secret if the government has the information but refuses to release it.

It's far more likely that at this point, they can't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 04:24:14 pm
It's far more likely that at this point, they can't.

Of course they can, they do it all the time when they grant money. You are happy with them releasing what they want, when they want. Got it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 04:30:47 pm
Yes, lets shame the people who needed help, because it's 'our money.'

Releasing info isn't shaming.

There's no shame in getting benefits if you lost work due to no fault in your own.  Taking money illegally is a different story.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 04:34:21 pm
Just tell companies that if they aren't willing to have the fact they have received public money made public, then don't apply for it. This BS confidentiality line is just that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 04:36:19 pm
The question for the public isn't who got the money. That's not always our business. I don't know who gets money from a whole host of government programs. The government needs to worry about accountability. We need to worry about the success of the overall program.

Part of the success of the program is accountability.  The public has a right to know if their money is being defrauded illegally, especially when unprecedented amounts of money are being given out.

I agree with you that it isn't always our business.  I don't know specifically how the Privacy Act works in this case, which is why the government could be totally justified in withholding the information.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 04:38:46 pm
We're still in the crisis. I think this is a weird time to try to hold people accountable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 04:39:21 pm
We're still in the crisis. I think this is a weird time to try to hold people accountable.

This is a valid argument.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 06, 2020, 04:42:02 pm
I think it's also worth noting that the Government of Canada is, at the best of times, and despite rhetoric to the contrary, a pretty lean operation by international peer standards. They're doing a lot with very little right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 06, 2020, 05:00:00 pm
We're still in the crisis. I think this is a weird time to try to hold people accountable.


Whatever this government is, it isn't anymore transparent than any other government we have ever had.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 06:07:12 pm
I think it's also worth noting that the Government of Canada is, at the best of times, and despite rhetoric to the contrary, a pretty lean operation by international peer standards. They're doing a lot with very little right now.

I'd actually argue our government in many departments is understaffed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 06, 2020, 06:32:13 pm
Corporations will have to disclose the income by law. It isn't the place of the government at this point.
It's difficult to see why almost any funds of dubious entitlement/eligibility won't come out in the wash in an individual's tax return too. I certainly support transparency but fail to see how people should expect anyone will get away with much if anything.

I'm often left with the sense at least some of the political concern over transparency has more to do with clucking over the debt while avoiding being seen questioning whether all the assistance was, has been or is still necessary going forward. I suspect that line questioning will be more public and louder in the wake of the pandemic - when hindsight is given a chance to get a really omnipresent head full of itself.  Recall where the lack of overwhelmed ICU's is cited as evidence that COVID measures weren't needed for example. I suspect the size of the COVID-debt will likewise be used to keep politicizing public spending on crises in the future. Speaking of shame the biggest would be if that debate left any unentitled high hanging fruit out of the equation because it was left hanging out of sight by lazy incompetent or worse corrupt public officials.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 06, 2020, 07:30:54 pm
It's difficult to see why almost any funds of dubious entitlement/eligibility won't come out in the wash in an individual's tax return too. I certainly support transparency but fail to see how people should expect anyone will get away with much if anything.

I agree.  If that's what JMT meant then I agree with him too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 09:04:03 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-spending-government-transparency-1.5826917
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 09:31:39 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-spending-government-transparency-1.5826917

It seems a conscious attempt to use every tool available to deny the release of info for companies.  The article says businesses aren't protected by the Privacy Act.  I think they know there will ]inevitably be companies who didn't deserve benefits, and others where they may have been eligible but for big companies the optics look bad, so gov doesn't want to deal with any potential controversies.  It's just politics.  I get that but we're also talking about the most money ever spent by our feds.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 10:03:59 am
and others where they may have been eligible but for big companies the optics look bad,

I think it's precisely this. Air Canada has had to disclose they took almost $500M in filings, and it's clear they were eligible. Still, people I've read aren't happy about it.

It will all have to come out eventually. I simply feel that this is an attempt at some gotcha journalism, and it's a premature concern in the middle of the second wave.

I'll also point out that it's not as simple as companies not being protected by privacy laws. Corporations have shareholders. Mine has 4. If you disclose I took money (I didn't - revenues are up like 250% this year) as a company, then it outs the shareholders. It also outs the employees who were paid as a result of the program.

In my view, the only time we need to know what happened is where an ineligible company got money, and won't comply with enforcement.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 10:57:54 am
It seems a conscious attempt to use every tool available to deny the release of info for companies.  The article says businesses aren't protected by the Privacy Act.  I think they know there will ]inevitably be companies who didn't deserve benefits, and others where they may have been eligible but for big companies the optics look bad, so gov doesn't want to deal with any potential controversies.  It's just politics.  I get that but we're also talking about the most money ever spent by our feds.

Exactly, it’s politics.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 11:01:42 am
I think it's precisely this. Air Canada has had to disclose they took almost $500M in filings, and it's clear they were eligible. Still, people I've read aren't happy about it.

It will all have to come out eventually. I simply feel that this is an attempt at some gotcha journalism, and it's a premature concern in the middle of the second wave.

I'll also point out that it's not as simple as companies not being protected by privacy laws. Corporations have shareholders. Mine has 4. If you disclose I took money (I didn't - revenues are up like 250% this year) as a company, then it outs the shareholders. It also outs the employees who were paid as a result of the program.

In my view, the only time we need to know what happened is where an ineligible company got money, and won't comply with enforcement.


How is pointing out that our government is keeping secret what other governments are disclosing, gotcha journalism? Why have investigative journalism at all. Talk about making excuses.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 11:34:40 am

How is pointing out that our government is keeping secret what other governments are disclosing, gotcha journalism? Why have investigative journalism at all. Talk about making excuses.

I see this as a poor time for criticism and analysis of an ongoing response to a crisis. The Government of Canada is a much smaller operation that so many international peers, and they have managed to roll out a larger package than other countries. There will be time for analysis later.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 11:40:05 am
We will find out the details, the issues, and what can be done better in years to come. Right now, I'd posit that most Canadians don't care.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 11:40:51 am
Quote
When the pandemic struck, central banks like the U.S. Federal Reserve and the Bank of Canada began buying corporate bonds to inject liquidity into the market. But while the Federal Reserve has made public the list of corporate bonds it bought, the Bank of Canada says it will only make the information public in five years.

Well, I guess if a PM that has been found guilty of ethics violations three times says you don't need to know something, That's good enough for you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 11:50:05 am
Well, I guess if a PM that has been found guilty of ethics violations three times says you don't need to know something, That's good enough for you.

I'm not sure how minor ethics violations connect to this. We're going to have accountability on this file, but now is a strange time to want that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 11:58:45 am
I'm not sure how minor ethics violations connect to this. We're going to have accountability on this file, but now is a strange time to want that.

WE
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2020, 12:03:25 pm
WEghazi! WEghazi! WEghazi!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 12:03:54 pm
WE

At the moment, WE isn't an ethics violation. I do consider it to be a major problem for the government. I am less convinced than I was in the summer that it was intentional.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 12:10:09 pm
At the moment, WE isn't an ethics violation. I do consider it to be a major problem for the government. I am less convinced than I was in the summer that it was intentional.

Of course it is. It's about giving sole source contracts to companies who have had your family members on the payroll.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:11:21 pm
I think it's precisely this. Air Canada has had to disclose they took almost $500M in filings, and it's clear they were eligible. Still, people I've read aren't happy about it.

I think the PR for companies and the Liberal gov is the main issue.  It could hurt companies financially due to PR perceptions.  When regular people are struggling they can get resentful of corporate welfare.  For Air Canada obviously they need the money to pay employees.

Quote
It will all have to come out eventually. I simply feel that this is an attempt at some gotcha journalism, and it's a premature concern in the middle of the second wave.

I don't believe that.  This is the media's job.  There's 380 billion or whatnot being spent in one year, these are insane amounts of money and all of us taxpayers are responsible for the tab.  There's like 100 different benefit programs.  There needs to be accountability.  Every single government in my lifetime has done things that were corrupt, deceitful, and incompetent and its foolish to think it may not happen here with the size of these programs and money involved.

Quote
I'll also point out that it's not as simple as companies not being protected by privacy laws. Corporations have shareholders. Mine has 4. If you disclose I took money (I didn't - revenues are up like 250% this year) as a company, then it outs the shareholders. It also outs the employees who were paid as a result of the program.

True.  There's a valid debate about privacy vs accountability/transparency here.  Pretty much anyone employed with the government has their salary publicly posted online, and with some simple ATIP requests most employees can be "outed".  Anyone in Ontario making over 100k has their name and salary posted on the "Sunshine List". The expectation of privacy is less with public funds because the money is being paid from the public's accounts.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:15:27 pm
I see this as a poor time for criticism and analysis of an ongoing response to a crisis. The Government of Canada is a much smaller operation that so many international peers, and they have managed to roll out a larger package than other countries. There will be time for analysis later.

On the other hand, by that time it will be too late when all the money is already given away with programs people may not end up agreeing with based on who got what and why.

It's not that hard to disclose info.  You suck it from the database and paste it onto an excel sheet.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:17:56 pm
We will find out the details, the issues, and what can be done better in years to come. Right now, I'd posit that most Canadians don't care.

The article Wilbur posted has the most views trending on CBC News.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:21:05 pm
At the moment, WE isn't an ethics violation. I do consider it to be a major problem for the government. I am less convinced than I was in the summer that it was intentional.

They prorogued during a national crisis in order to shut down the probe.  Transparent and accountable. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2020, 12:29:53 pm
They prorogued during a national crisis in order to shut down the probe.  Transparent and accountable.

no - the perogy was to bring forward a new Speech from the Throne and economic update on how to best move forward with the country’s recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic... I do believe the government was supported; wait, my crack research team is looking for the vote results - stay tuned!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2020, 12:31:54 pm
I'm not sure how minor ethics violations connect to this. We're going to have accountability on this file, but now is a strange time to want that.

member wilber was just so flummoxed dealing with your cogent/pointed/logical posts that he had no recourse than to trot out the "ethics go-to" talking point!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2020, 12:36:21 pm
Of course it is. It's about giving sole source contracts to companies who have had your family members on the payroll.

yabut member wilber - it was the civil service that reviewed, analyzed and recommended WE charity... even after PM Trudeau punted it back to them for another look see!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:37:53 pm
no - the perogy was to bring forward a new Speech from the Throne and economic update on how to best move forward with the country’s recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic... I do believe the government was supported; wait, my crack research team is looking for the vote results - stay tuned!

You're a liar and a tyrant.  You should run for office.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 12:38:43 pm
True.  There's a valid debate about privacy vs accountability/transparency here.  Pretty much anyone employed with the government has their salary publicly posted online, and with some simple ATIP requests most employees can be "outed".  Anyone in Ontario making over 100k has their name and salary posted on the "Sunshine List". The expectation of privacy is less with public funds because the money is being paid from the public's accounts.

You assume I'm in any way in favour of that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 12:39:39 pm
The article Wilbur posted has the most views trending on CBC News.

You know that isn't in any way representative of what the public at large cares about right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:42:25 pm
yabut member wilber - it was the civil service that reviewed, analyzed and recommended WE charity... even after PM Trudeau punted it back to them for another look see!  ;D

Defend, deny, spin, minimize, ignore, redirect, pivot, repeat.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:43:51 pm
You assume I'm in any way in favour of that.

I'm well aware you're not in favour of it. I made no assumptions, I made a point.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 12:45:03 pm
You know that isn't in any way representative of what the public at large cares about right now.

Defend, deny, spin, minimize, ignore, redirect, pivot, repeat.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 12:46:20 pm
It's not that hard to disclose info.  You suck it from the database and paste it onto an excel sheet.

This deserves a dumb tag. You know that nothing in life, let alone government is that simple. There are legal realities that have to be dealt with.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 12:53:30 pm
Defend, deny, spin, minimize, ignore, redirect, pivot, repeat.

I would say the same no matter who was in power. I don't care right now about this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 07, 2020, 12:54:13 pm
There's a valid debate about privacy vs accountability/transparency here.

There always is with governments. I think the biggest problem is that the terms secrecy and privacy are too loose and inter-changeable.  When applying them in governance they should carry the same sort of legal weight the term in-camera does in jurisprudence.

It seems there's a rather downplayed given in our society that power and wealth need a safe space in which they can be frank with one another and without which our system would apparently not work - something to do with the keeping public passions at a cooler governable temperature as I've been given to understand. I do get that - I'm reminded of the reluctance to release information about specific areas of higher infection within health regions to ward off stigmatization and inflaming public passions for example. It's a similar yet different situation but I do think the transparency reserved for individuals and corporations is just a little to deliberately blurry at times and especially where money or opportunity is involved.  Someone mentioned whether corporations should be regarded as being different than a person and I think the validity of that debate is conveniently still in doubt, especially for those who believe the privacy of a corporation's dealings with a government should be as private as a flesh and blood human being's.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 02:17:16 pm
This isn't about corporations doing deals with government, it is about government handing out money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 02:31:03 pm
This isn't about corporations doing deals with government, it is about government handing out money.

The money being handed out is based on corporate revenue statistics. I suspect there's some concern about what is and isn't proprietary information.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 02:33:25 pm
The money being handed out is based on corporate revenue statistics. I suspect there's some concern about what is and isn't proprietary information.

If there is that concern, it shouldn't have been handed out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2020, 02:35:00 pm
This isn't about corporations doing deals with government, it is about government handing out money.

ya ya, hey member wilber! "We're conservatives, we don't believe in that!"

Quote from: #pigeonPierre
You may want to address COVID-19 with big fat government programs; we're conservatives, we don't believe in that


Deputy Prime Minister Freeland reminds the CPC MP for Carleton, Pierre Poilievre, what he said when asked what support the government should offer to Canadians hurt by the pandemic: (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1309527370781523968/pu/vid/1272x720/7_AsH2XuTTuV4Z-Q.mp4?tag=10)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 03:05:32 pm
If there is that concern, it shouldn't have been handed out.

The government is also stuck between a rock and a hard place.  It's a bit of a lose-lose situation.  Release the info and corporations and people get mad and it possibly dissuades businesses from signing up when they actually legit need the money, don't release the info and they look like they're hiding something.  As long as accountability happens at some point, especially before the next election, i'm ok with it, whatever.

On the other hand, people in power aren't trustworthy so we shouldn't trust this government (or any government).  Trudeau and the people around him have taken and given money unethically, they don't get the benefit of the doubt.  At the end of the day they'll look out for their own interests. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 07, 2020, 03:28:40 pm
This isn't about corporations doing deals with government, it is about government handing out money.
I should have said the relationship our government has with us - it should be different because corporations and people are different too.  Is it safe to assume there was a fair bit of lobbying attending the handout of corporate benefits that wasn't present in the handing out of benefits to individuals? An occasional phone call between a recipient and some government department to clear up a mistake or a question on an application is a lot different than meeting behind a closed door.  I suppose we could glean some idea of the topic being discussed by looking at the reason registered by the lobbyist but recall the reason SNC gave for meeting with officials was to discuss justice and law enforcement, not get out of jail free cards.

Sometimes there's more to it, sometimes a lot more, than just handing out money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 07, 2020, 03:49:37 pm
If there is that concern, it shouldn't have been handed out.

The money designed to keep employees paid?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 07, 2020, 06:06:12 pm
The money designed to keep employees paid?

Fine but the information who got it should be accessible.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 07, 2020, 07:32:42 pm
Fine but the information who got it should be accessible.

Let's all agree to disagree.  This will go on for 5 more pages lol.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 09:49:28 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/distillers-hand-sanitizer-pandemic-1.5813509

375 million spent on foreign made hand sanitizer, 252 million of it from China. Canadian distillers who we encouraged to switch production to sanitizers cry foul. More gotcha journalism?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 11:32:00 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/distillers-hand-sanitizer-pandemic-1.5813509

375 million spent on foreign made hand sanitizer, 252 million of it from China. Canadian distillers who we encouraged to switch production to sanitizers cry foul. More gotcha journalism?

The government bought from any sources that they could. There was a global shortage. Ottawa ensured that Canada as one of the few countries that didn't run out of supplies at any point. So, yeah.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 11:34:24 am
The government bought from any sources that they could. There was a global shortage. Ottawa ensured that Canada as one of the few countries that didn't run out of supplies at any point. So, yeah.

Ya, I think their point is that they have been ignored for future contracts once the immediate emergency was over. They are no longer useful.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 11:36:46 am
Ya, I think their point is that they have been ignored for future contracts once the immediate emergency was over. They are no longer useful.

One of the ways that Canada was able to secure guaranteed supply is with long term contracts. Things are rarely stupid. Anita Anand is a literal genius and the expert on contracts. She's a professor of contract law on leave. She knows what she's doing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 11:39:16 am
This is definitely a gotcha headline, anyway
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 11:40:17 am
One of the ways that Canada was able to secure guaranteed supply is with long term contracts. Things are rarely stupid. Anita Anand is a literal genius and the expert on contracts. She's a professor of contract law on leave. She knows what she's doing.

Still, it's a kick in the nuts to the people who answered the government's plea and stepped up to produce this stuff at cost or even for free.

At the time we were all upset because we had no domestic sources for this stuff but now the crisis is past, we go right back to where we were.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 11:41:30 am
Still, it's a kick in the nuts to the people who answered the government's plea and stepped up to produce this stuff at cost or even for free.

At the time we were all upset because we had no domestic sources for this stuff but now the crisis is past, we go right back to where we were.

Did you read the actual article? We spent 2/3 of the money in Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 11:43:42 am
Did you read the actual article? We spent 2/3 of the money in Canada.

Yes we did. The point of the article is, we are not continuing to do so.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 11:46:07 am
Yes we did. The point of the article is, we are not continuing to do so.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 11:47:50 am
Ya, I think their point is that they have been ignored for future contracts once the immediate emergency was over. They are no longer useful.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 08, 2020, 12:06:01 pm
Wanna pay too much for something and have an unreliable source of product?   Buy it a few litres at a time from dozens of small producers. 

Buying it by the cubic metre with longer term contracts produced by massive manufacturers will be much more cost effective. 

Do distilleries want a piece of the emergency spending pie?  Of course.  Is that a wise use of funds?  Definitely not.

I get my hand sanitizer from Wayward Distillery in Courtenay.  Sometimes they’re out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 12:11:28 pm
Did you read the actual article? We spent 2/3 of the money in Canada.


Yes we spent. Future contracts are going outside the country. Did you read the article?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 12:15:55 pm
Wanna pay too much for something and have an unreliable source of product?   Buy it a few litres at a time from dozens of small producers. 

Buying it by the cubic metre with longer term contracts produced by massive manufacturers will be much more cost effective. 

Do distilleries want a piece of the emergency spending pie?  Of course.  Is that a wise use of funds?  Definitely not.

I get my hand sanitizer from Wayward Distillery in Courtenay.  Sometimes they’re out.

So why wouldn't you select and support some domestic suppliers that can spool up for reliable long term production? It this happens again in ten years we will be in the same boat as we were in April.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 12:23:49 pm

Yes we spent. Future contracts are going outside the country. Did you read the article?

Future contracts are going to large Canadian distributors.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 12:29:59 pm
Future contracts are going to large Canadian distributors.

Distributors or manufacturers? Where are they getting the stuff?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 08, 2020, 12:58:50 pm
Distributors or manufacturers? Where are they getting the stuff?

From whomever can supply the massive quantities necessary right away. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 01:02:30 pm
From whomever can supply the massive quantities necessary right away.

Our problem is relying on foreign sources for the product, it doesn't matter who distributes the stuff if it isn't manufactured here.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 01:09:23 pm
As an aside, many of our stainless pots and pans, bake wear etc are over 50 years old. All of it made in Canada. I got my old belt drive turntable up and running a few weeks ago and have got back into vinyl. I have a couple of hundred records that I accumulated between the mid sixties and mid eighties. Almost all of them manufactured in Canada. We don't make **** anymore.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 01:17:24 pm
Distributors or manufacturers? Where are they getting the stuff?

Various sources, and I would assume that there's a focus on domestic production.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2020, 02:27:23 pm
Still, it's a kick in the nuts to the people who answered the government's plea and stepped up to produce this stuff at cost or even for free.

At the time we were all upset because we had no domestic sources for this stuff but now the crisis is past, we go right back to where we were.

The story is about the small-time suppliers.  They did a noble thing, but in a crisis situation especially the gov goes with big companies and big contracts to get big shipments to make things more efficient.  We need to remember the gov is primarily trying to save lives.  They could have done more with the small Canadian guys.  They heeded the call from our feds then were totally ignored.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2020, 02:36:51 pm
This is definitely a gotcha headline, anyway

How so?  The article is about small-time alcohol distillers who answered the feds call to produce hand sanitizer and gave it out for free at great cost to themselves, then the gov bought from the big suppliers, half of which were from foreign companies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2020, 02:40:54 pm
Did you read the actual article? We spent 2/3 of the money in Canada.

On PPE yes, not hand sanitizer, which is the headline.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 02:41:59 pm
On PPE yes, not hand sanitizer, which is the headline.

Sanitizer is counted for the purposes of this article and discussion (and by the federal government) as PPE.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2020, 02:45:44 pm
Sanitizer is counted for the purposes of this article and discussion (and by the federal government) as PPE.

Ok, but the article is about small-time distillers in Canada who made sanitizer, often for free, after the feds called on Canadian companies to make it, and then couldn't get gov contracts.  ~50% of our sanitizer comes from foreign companies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 02:48:02 pm
Ok, but the article is about small-time distillers in Canada who made sanitizer, often for free, after the feds called on Canadian companies to make it, and then couldn't get gov contracts.  ~50% of our sanitizer comes from foreign companies.

My understanding is that the sanitizer was needed for the public at large. The distilleries weren't making medical grade sanitizer - a different thing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 08, 2020, 04:01:31 pm
Our problem is relying on foreign sources for the product, it doesn't matter who distributes the stuff if it isn't manufactured here.

Every single government on the planet, including the USA and Germany were dealing with other countries (China) for their PPE.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 08, 2020, 04:04:43 pm
Ok, but the article is about small-time distillers in Canada who made sanitizer, often for free, after the feds called on Canadian companies to make it, and then couldn't get gov contracts.  ~50% of our sanitizer comes from foreign companies.

For free?  Bullshit... 

What’s more cost effective...   dozens of distillers across the country making batches in the hundreds of litres, or a company overseas who can make it in the millions of litres at a time?

It’s pretty obvious that small distillers are going to be sporadic producers not fit for the massive quantities needed.  This is just whining on their part.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2020, 04:23:44 pm
For free?  Bullshit...

From the article:

"So dozens of Canada's distillers scrambled to produce tens of thousands of litres for free. At the height of the shortage, about a dozen distilleries in B.C. alone were supplying hospitals, government offices and emergency workers all over the province.
...
Dyck said he has been called naive, but felt it was his family's duty to produce the COVID protection when nobody else could. His company spent about $200,000 donating sanitizer.
"

Quote
What’s more cost effective...   dozens of distillers across the country making batches in the hundreds of litres, or a company overseas who can make it in the millions of litres at a time?

It’s pretty obvious that small distillers are going to be sporadic producers not fit for the massive quantities needed.

I agree, this is what I said before.  I'm not sure what they expected.  There was also no agreement in place to compensate them for giving it away.  But they are heroes and patriots.  That doesn't seem to get anyone very far these days unfortunately.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 07:24:56 pm
Every single government on the planet, including the USA and Germany were dealing with other countries (China) for their PPE.

That's why I said if the same thing happens in ten years we will right where we were last April after learning nothing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2020, 07:26:22 pm
Various sources, and I would assume that there's a focus on domestic production.
Some say faith is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2020, 08:13:54 pm
My understanding is that the sanitizer was needed for the public at large. The distilleries weren't making medical grade sanitizer - a different thing.

Why the dumb tag?  You don't think these small distilleries who made and gave away hand sanitizer for free are heroes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 08, 2020, 08:29:12 pm
Why the dumb tag?  You don't think these small distilleries who made and gave away hand sanitizer for free are heroes?

Well, any sanitizer I got from them I paid for. I think calling them patriots is a bit over the top.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2020, 09:31:20 pm
Well, any sanitizer I got from them I paid for. I think calling them patriots is a bit over the top.

One of the small distilleries gave away 200k in sanitizer for free in order to help his fellow countrymen during a time of national crisis after the PM gave a "call to action" for businesses to help produce PPE.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/business/maintaingrowimprovebusiness/manufacturers-needed.html

This was a month and a half after his government sent 16 tons of PPE to China, and a few weeks before Trudeau traveled across provincial borders to spend Easter with his family after urging families to do the opposite and borders were closed to non-essential travel.  Meanwhile the Chinese government does things like not allowing sample COVID vaccines to be sent to Canada for clinical trials here:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/construction-problems-prevented-national-research-council-from-opening-vaccine-facility-on-schedule

Quote
"The CanSino deal fell apart in August when Chinese customs authorities refused to send samples of the company’s vaccine to Canada to allow for clinical trials."

So yes I'm well aware who the heroes and patriots are.  Self-serving people who sell-out Canada for their own interests & power get elected to office while whistleblowers are punished, and these people give up 200k for nothing, so no these things often don't get rewarded.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 08, 2020, 11:14:11 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/3UApVs5.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 08, 2020, 11:34:24 pm
That's why I said if the same thing happens in ten years we will right where we were last April after learning nothing.

For sure we will....  that's why we need to stock up and keep supplies on hand.  It's going to be a lot of waste...   probably have to throw it out every few years and keep replenishing the stock for the next pandemic.  People's taxes are going to go up, as keeping stockpiles of supplies costs money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 08, 2020, 11:37:21 pm
One of the small distilleries gave away 200k in sanitizer for free in order to help his fellow countrymen during a time of national crisis after the PM gave a "call to action" for businesses to help produce PPE.



That was very nice of them.  And now they wants to get paid!!    Well...  was it heroism, or a short term loss in order to get a government contract that would pay them handsomely for their "generosity"?

I don't have much sympathy for an industry that makes buckets of money, then expects to be paid for their charitable giving by the government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 01:19:28 pm
That was very nice of them.  And now they wants to get paid!!    Well...  was it heroism, or a short term loss in order to get a government contract that would pay them handsomely for their "generosity"?

I don't have much sympathy for an industry that makes buckets of money, then expects to be paid for their charitable giving by the government.

Small distilleries don't make buckets of money but government does on the taxes it puts on their products.

I pay $29 USD or $37 CAD in California for the same 1.75L bottle of Bombay Sapphire gin that costs me $62 CAD at a BCLC.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 10, 2020, 01:36:33 pm
Small distilleries don't make buckets of money but government does on the taxes it puts on their products.

I pay $29 USD or $37 CAD in California for the same 1.75L bottle of Bombay Sapphire gin that costs me $62 CAD at a BCLC.

Liquor is very profitable, especially for larger volume companies, like the makers of Bombay.

The fact that some distilleries want to be paid off for their earlier kindness is a bit slimy.


Edited to add a question to Wilber:

Why aren’t you supporting those local distilleries instead of buying Bombay?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 10, 2020, 02:35:14 pm
Liquor is very profitable, especially for larger volume companies, like the makers of Bombay.

The fact that some distilleries want to be paid off for their earlier kindness is a bit slimy.

You're right, whining about not getting paid for charity means they lose hero status.  But i'm glad they still heeded the call, and it still kinda sucks the gov shuts them out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 05:47:21 pm
Liquor is very profitable, especially for larger volume companies, like the makers of Bombay.

The fact that some distilleries want to be paid off for their earlier kindness is a bit slimy.


Edited to add a question to Wilber:

Why aren’t you supporting those local distilleries instead of buying Bombay?


Good question. They aren't that easy to find and almost impossible at government stores. I've been trying to get a bottle of Sheringham Seaside Gin for almost a year but have never found any.

I could order it from Sheringham but its expensive. $40.00 plus taxes and shipping for 750 ML
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 05:49:01 pm
You're right, whining about not getting paid for charity means they lose hero status.  But i'm glad they still heeded the call, and it still kinda sucks the gov shuts them out.

Well, they won't do it again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 10, 2020, 05:59:37 pm
Well, they won't do it again.

Really?  Charity should only be done if there’s a kickback later?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 06:48:12 pm
Really?  Charity should only be done if there’s a kickback later?

Government asked them to do it. Hopefully they at least get a tax write off  like other charitable donations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 10, 2020, 06:52:56 pm
Government asked them to do it. Hopefully they at least get a tax write off  like other charitable donations.

Yes.  They were asked to perform charity in a time of need.

There was no promise of kickbacks.

Nice corporate citizens....   "here's our charity...  now where's our reward"?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 10, 2020, 07:17:02 pm
Nobody told them to give the sanitizer away for free.  That's on them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 07:43:20 pm
Yes.  They were asked to perform charity in a time of need.

There was no promise of kickbacks.

Nice corporate citizens....   "here's our charity...  now where's our reward"?

When did a contract to produce something become a kickback?
What kind of "kickbacks'w were offered by the companies that did get the contracts?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 10, 2020, 07:49:01 pm
When did a contract to produce something become a kickback?
What kind of "kickbacks'w were offered by the companies that did get the contracts?

Charity was not a contract.  Nor was it a promise of a contract. 

If you give something "for free" but then expect something in return later, I think that something later could be called a kickback. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 08:14:03 pm
Charity was not a contract.  Nor was it a promise of a contract. 

If you give something "for free" but then expect something in return later, I think that something later could be called a kickback.

If someone helps me out, especialy when I asked them too, I kind of feel an obligation to respond in kind when I can. How about you?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 10, 2020, 08:25:06 pm
If someone helps me out, especialy when I asked them too, I kind of feel an obligation to respond in kind when I can. How about you?

I don’t feel an obligation to give them a contract and money, no.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 10:02:53 pm
I don’t feel an obligation to give them a contract and money, no.

So how would you help them out?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 10, 2020, 10:11:54 pm
So how would you help them out?

I would thank them for their charity and being good corporate citizens with a certificate and a medal.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 10, 2020, 11:12:33 pm
I would thank them for their charity and being good corporate citizens with a certificate and a medal.

Which is really nothing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 10, 2020, 11:46:36 pm
Which is really nothing.

That’s true...  nothing in a material sense. 

Which s exactly what you should expect when you are charitable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 11, 2020, 09:39:10 am
 >:(
That’s true...  nothing in a material sense. 

Which s exactly what you should expect when you are charitable.

Nothing in any sense. Medals and letters mean SFA if you have to be shamed into giving them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 11, 2020, 02:09:19 pm
>:(
Nothing in any sense. Medals and letters mean SFA if you have to be shamed into giving them.

Anyone expecting payoffs for giving to charity should be kicked in the nuts.  They’re a rotten human being.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 11, 2020, 03:00:29 pm
Anyone expecting payoffs for giving to charity should be kicked in the nuts.  They’re a rotten human being.

I expect a tax receipt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 11, 2020, 04:41:27 pm
I expect a tax receipt.

I’m sure they can write off their ingredients, time, etc as a tax deduction.  I don’t know what the tax rules are, but I’m sure normal rules apply.

Do you expect government contracts when you give to charity as a payback for your generosity?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 11, 2020, 05:16:40 pm
I’m sure they can write off their ingredients, time, etc as a tax deduction.  I don’t know what the tax rules are, but I’m sure normal rules apply.

Do you expect government contracts when you give to charity as a payback for your generosity?
d

I would expect some consideration, at least to be asked to bid on a contract.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2020, 02:20:49 am
"The current price on carbon translates to Canadians paying roughly an extra 2.3 cents per litre of gasoline, which is set to rise to an extra 12 cents per litre under the $50 per tonne pricing in 2022.

Government officials speaking on background on Friday said the increase in the carbon tax after 2022 would translate to an increase of roughly 27.6 cents per litre from 2022 costs.

That means Canadians can expect to pay roughly an extra 39.6 cents per litre of gasoline by 2030.
"

https://globalnews.ca/news/7515981/canada-climate-change-plan-justin-trudeau/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 07:48:36 am
"The current price on carbon translates to Canadians paying roughly an extra 2.3 cents per litre of gasoline, which is set to rise to an extra 12 cents per litre under the $50 per tonne pricing in 2022.

Government officials speaking on background on Friday said the increase in the carbon tax after 2022 would translate to an increase of roughly 27.6 cents per litre from 2022 costs.

That means Canadians can expect to pay roughly an extra 39.6 cents per litre of gasoline by 2030.
"

https://globalnews.ca/news/7515981/canada-climate-change-plan-justin-trudeau/

Yes - a plan that finally meets our promised climate targets. It’s about time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 08:52:14 am
 :-*
Yes - a plan that finally meets our promised climate targets. It’s about time.

So the great plan is just another tax.

In our town it will just mean a lot more people crossing the border to buy gas. Places like Sumas  and Blaine Wa will be booming again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 09:23:14 am
So the great plan is just another tax.

That's not the entirety of the plan, but it is the most important point. Putting a price on carbon is the most cost effective way to deal with this crisis.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 11:27:38 am
They might find some expensive gas across the border soon, too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 12, 2020, 11:30:52 am
1992 United Nations Rio Declaration on Environment and Development - Principle 16:

Quote
National authorities should endeavour to promote the internalization of environmental costs and the use of economic instruments, taking into account the approach that the polluter should, in principle, bear the cost of pollution, with due regard to the public interest and without distorting international trade and investment.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 11:46:54 am
They might find some expensive gas across the border soon, too.

They might but the point is, these things can't be done in isolation, particularly if we have free trade agreements with countries that don't have similar taxation. All we will do is make our own industries less competitive and more will move south to survive. Travel and vacationing within Canada will be more expensive so fewer people will come and more Canadians will vacation elsewhere. Airlines will start tankering fuel again which results in even higher emissions. It will also drive up the cost of just about everything we consume.

PS. The US might rejoin the Paris Agreement but getting legislation passed will be another thing entirely, particularly if the Republicans can retain control of the Senate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 12:18:20 pm
They might but the point is, these things can't be done in isolation

They're not being done in isolation. Right now, Canada is a laggard. This ends that status and brings us at least into the mid pack. Europe's commitments are far more comprehensive, and they're keeping theirs so far.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 12:52:14 pm
They're not being done in isolation. Right now, Canada is a laggard. This ends that status and brings us at least into the mid pack. Europe's commitments are far more comprehensive, and they're keeping theirs so far.

75% of our trade is with the US.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 12:54:46 pm
75% of our trade is with the US.

And now, they have a pro climate president.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 12:59:33 pm
And now, they have a pro climate president.

So what. We should be working with Biden to bring these things in at the same time, otherwise we are just shooting ourselves in the foot.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 01:57:37 pm
So what. We should be working with Biden to bring these things in at the same time, otherwise we are just shooting ourselves in the foot.

If we don't meet our commitments in very short order, and go beyond them, it won't really matter much. Much of the world is moving on without America on this. US cities and states are bringing in stringent decarbonization on their own. There isn't time to waste.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 03:27:58 pm
If we don't meet our commitments in very short order, and go beyond them, it won't really matter much. Much of the world is moving on without America on this. US cities and states are bringing in stringent decarbonization on their own. There isn't time to waste.

It won't matter much to world emissions if we don't either. We have to move with America because our economies are so intertwined. Business can move freely across the border and there is only so much penalty they pay before they move.

Trudeau is a silver spoon ideologue who wants to be a hero. He was born into wealth and has never had a job that he really needed to pay his bills. Not his fault but reality.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2020, 03:37:07 pm
And now, they have a pro climate president.

It will depend on what the US government does, not what the executive says.  I would be very much in favour of the US putting in as high or higher carbon taxes as Canada, but have my doubts they'll do it unfortunately.

Wilbur is right about our competitiveness with the US, cost of business and cost of living is going up in Canada.

Carbon taxes on gas also only does good if there's viable green alternatives.  The power grid to charge EVs also has to be green.  In many industries the taxes are a bit ahead of the tech.  Tractor-trailer EVs are on their way but it will take a bit more time, plus I assume they'll be expensive.  It's exciting that hopefully most vehicles will be EVs in 20 years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 03:54:11 pm
Are tractor trailer EV's really on their way? I don't think existing battery technology is up to it for long haul tractor trailers, they just don't contain enough energy for the amount of weight involved. I can see a lot of EV's for inner city deliveries. Where is all this electricity going to come from for our electric society. Almost all of BC's electricity comes from hydro electric sources yet electricity only supplies 20% of the provinces total energy needs. Less than 1% comes from biofuels and almost 80% comes from fossil fuels.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 04:27:33 pm
Wilbur is right about our competitiveness with the US, cost of business and cost of living is going up in Canada.

You pass yourself off as an expert on a lot of things. Studies show that what you're saying just isn't the case. Carbon taxes are the most effective way to mitigate climate change. The effects of climate change won't come with a rebate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 04:28:34 pm
It won't matter much to world emissions if we don't either.

If everyone has that attitude, nothing gets done.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 04:50:36 pm
If everyone has that attitude, nothing gets done.
We aren’t going to save the world on our own.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 04:58:45 pm
You pass yourself off as an expert on a lot of things. Studies show that what you're saying just isn't the case. Carbon taxes are the most effective way to mitigate climate change. The effects of climate change won't come with a rebate.

It will also increase the cost of producing and transporting just about everything.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2020, 05:52:26 pm
You pass yourself off as an expert on a lot of things.
Oh I do?  And you don't?

Quote
Studies show that what you're saying just isn't the case.
Show us the studies.  Studies that don't come from ideologically biased sources.

Quote
Carbon taxes are the most effective way to mitigate climate change. The effects of climate change won't come with a rebate.
Which is why I support them in general.  I'm saying we need to implement them smartly.  We need to push where it can really make a difference.  Taxing people where there are viable alternatives to fossil fuels is something I support, taxing people/businesses where viable alternatives are as of now few or nonexistent isn't productive and is crutch on our economy.

The system the feds have set up is pretty complex, there's rebates for households and different rates for big polluters and industries etc.  We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2020, 05:54:27 pm
It will also increase the cost of producing and transporting just about everything.

I'm ok with keeping up more or less with the EU, they're a big portion of polluters.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 06:18:40 pm
I'm ok with keeping up more or less with the EU, they're a big portion of polluters.

Like it or not, our economy is tied to the US, not the EU.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 06:23:21 pm
Show us the studies.  Studies that don't come from ideologically biased sources.

Then...robot studies?

Quote
Which is why I support them in general.  I'm saying we need to implement them smartly. 

Our commitment to 30% (now 32) is the bare minimum to be done by 2030. Anything less than that is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 06:24:09 pm
We aren’t going to save the world on our own.

Many countries have pledged to do significantly more than our bare minimum effort.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 07:16:44 pm
Many countries have pledged to do significantly more than our bare minimum effort.

Are their economies tied to the US?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2020, 08:00:09 pm
Our commitment to 30% (now 32) is the bare minimum to be done by 2030. Anything less than that is a waste of time.

Ok that's fine, I'm just saying we need to be target industries with viable green/greener alternatives or it will be a waste of time while unduly punishing certain parts of the economy for no reason.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 08:45:58 pm
Ok that's fine, I'm just saying we need to be target industries with viable green/greener alternatives or it will be a waste of time while unduly punishing certain parts of the economy for no reason.

The transition is already happening.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 09:08:09 pm
The transition is already happening.

Then why do we need a huge carbon tax?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 09:46:11 pm
Then why do we need a huge carbon tax?

Because it incentivizes a faster transition.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 09:47:38 pm
Because it incentivizes a faster transition.
Sure. It's also inflationary and reduces competitiveness.


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 09:48:59 pm
More of the same.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-federal-government-fiscal-transparency-1.5833495


Quote
With respect to timely administrative data, the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia are providing analysis. The U.K. and Australia publish detailed monthly reports explaining their statistics. New Zealand publishes visual representations of the statistics and a separate data file every month. The U.S. has created several interactive and very detailed dashboards explaining information on all government benefits in one location.

Canada does none of this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 09:51:43 pm
Sure. It's also inflationary and reduces competitiveness.

According to whom?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 09:53:33 pm
More of the same.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-federal-government-fiscal-transparency-1.5833495

Such a strange line from CBC in the middle of the second wave. This isn't, I'd argue, the time for any kind of proper analysis.

As the article says, reporting is business as usual. They're trying to create controversy, so they want more.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 12, 2020, 10:03:47 pm
Such a strange line from CBC in the middle of the second wave. This isn't, I'd argue, the time for any kind of proper analysis.

As the article says, reporting is business as usual. They're trying to create controversy, so they want more.

And yet numerous other countries can do it. You just blindly back everything this government does. Do you have a problem with accountability. The government is going to spend over 600 billion next year and you don't seem to care where it goes. Once it is spent it is gone, no amount of accountability will bring it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 10:09:38 pm
Once it is spent it is gone, no amount of accountability will bring it back.

Other countries are reporting 'once it is spent and gone.' The media just isn't happy that they don't get to know every detail right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 10:10:59 pm
And yet numerous other countries can do it. You just blindly back everything this government does.

And no. I just fall almost smack dab in mid Liberal territory.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2020, 10:22:30 pm
Such a strange line from CBC in the middle of the second wave. This isn't, I'd argue, the time for any kind of proper analysis.

As the article says, reporting is business as usual. They're trying to create controversy, so they want more.

Kevin Page is a drama queen?

The article says even the data they release is made complex and difficult to read.  There's little doubt the gov is burying as much as they can get away with to avoid controversies.  It's in their interests not to be transparent.  If they're spending hundreds of billions they should be as transparent as legally possible.

They move mountains to get our info, but not to release their info.  Stats Can already knows how much savings Canadians have in the bank.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-economy/canada-statistics-agency-eyes-savings-pot-of-cash-for-hints-on-recovery-idUSKBN25R2XT
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 12, 2020, 10:28:59 pm
Quote
=> "an independent agency of the Government of Canada, established in 1987, to protect depositors, policyholders, financial institution creditors and pension plan members, while allowing financial institutions to compete and take reasonable risks." OSFI regulates and supervises more than 400 federally regulated financial institutions and 1,200 pension plans to determine whether they are in sound financial condition and meeting their requirements. Federally regulated entities include all banks in Canada, and all federally incorporated or registered trust and loan companies, insurance companies, cooperative credit associations, fraternal benefit societies and private pension plans.

Jeremy Rudin -  Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions (OSFI): A complex climate: Charting a path for an uncertain future (https://www.osfi-bsif.gc.ca/Eng/osfi-bsif/med/sp-ds/Pages/jr20201211.aspx)

Quote
Clearly, the transition to dramatically lower greenhouse gas emissions is also something beyond our previous experience. So climate change policy will also evolve over time, and it will evolve in ways that are difficult if not impossible to predict. If policy does not evolve in this way, we will not achieve the dramatic reduction in greenhouse gas emissions that we seek.

Building a clearer picture of the future through scenario analysis

What does this mean for OSFI? It means that to fulfill our unique role of ensuring that Canadians continue to enjoy financial stability while climate-related risks manifest, we will need to ensure that the financial sector is prepared to manage through a wide range of transition scenarios.

This is why we are very pleased to be working with the Bank of Canada and some of our banks and insurers on scenario analysis of the transition. We cannot afford to be paralysed by the uncertainty inherent in the problem. Rather, we are turning to scenario analysis to help enhance our thinking and that of the industry. This work will provide some concrete insights into the risks to the financial system from the transition to a low-greenhouse gas economy, as well as the opportunities that this transition could present.

A small group of companies from the banking and insurance sectors are participating in this pilot project with us.

Through this project we will:

    - build climate scenario analysis knowledge;
    - increase understanding of the financial sector’s potential exposure to risks associated with the transition to a low-greenhouse gas economy;
    - support the Canadian financial sector in enhancing the disclosure of climate-related transition risks; and,
    - increase understanding of financial institutions’ governance and risk-management practices around climate-related risks and opportunities.

The first step of the pilot project is to develop a Canada-relevant set of transition scenarios, and financial risk assessment methods and metrics. We are targeting to complete this step in the first half of 2021.

Next, using these scenarios, participants will explore the potential risk exposures on their balance sheets. We are aiming to complete this step in the second half of 2021.

Finally, along with the Bank of Canada, we plan to publish a report near the end of 2021, sharing details on the specific scenarios, methods, assumptions and key sensitivities.

We look forward to sharing our insights with you when we reach that point. We look forward to sharing our insights with you when we reach that point. We also intend to draw on those insights to inform OSFI’s work more broadly with financial market participants in the area of climate risk.

In the meantime, we are busy with other aspects of our work to help to prepare the financial sector for climate-related risks.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 10:35:31 pm
Kevin Page is a drama queen?

No, but his opinion is less relevant on this right now than I'll find it in say...6 months.

I want companies and people who abuse the system held accountable. Right now, I want the government working on other things.

Quote
The article says even the data they release is made complex and difficult to read. 

That's one way to read it. To me, from the description, it sounds way more likely that various departments are just pasting info to spread sheets and don't have time to make them pretty and user friendly right now.

The media wants to know where the money went right now, so they can make you hate those evil corporations. It sells papers. Donald Trump is gone, WE fizzled out, and they need a new target. What can I say? The media is important, but also desperate right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 12, 2020, 10:47:23 pm
That's one way to read it. To me, from the description, it sounds way more likely that various departments are just pasting info to spread sheets and don't have time to make them pretty and user friendly right now.

I don't trust the government.  If they have evidence that is the case they should present it.  If they have a good reason to not give out certain info, they can present that too.  I'm not going to start creating excuses for them.  They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Quote
The media wants to know where the money went right now, so they can make you hate those evil corporations. It sells papers. Donald Trump is gone, WE fizzled out, and they need a new target. What can I say? The media is important, but also desperate right now.

It's also their job to hammer on them to get info, similar to the opposition.  They're just doing their jobs.  The CBC is non-profit at least, and Kevin Page's think-tank is non-profit I assume.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 10:49:54 pm
I don't trust the government.

Consider me flabbergasted.

Quote
It's also their job to hammer on them to get info, similar to the opposition.  They're just doing their jobs.  The CBC is non-profit at least, and Kevin Page's think-tank is non-profit I assume.

I agree, it's their, job, and I commend them for doing it. I'm just not sympathetic right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 12, 2020, 10:50:26 pm
Hey Wilber, if you want something keep you up at night, I have something:

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 08:55:40 am
According to whom?

Raising costs is inflationary.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 08:57:21 am
Other countries are reporting 'once it is spent and gone.' The media just isn't happy that they don't get to know every detail right now.

So like when, sometime after the next election?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 09:02:28 am
Hey Wilber, if you want something keep you up at night, I have something:

Won’t keep me up. Just another opinion from whoever the hell Tombe is.

Debt is debt and the same people are paying for all of it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 11:00:48 am
The only way the federal government can sustain these monster deficits is to get the central bank to print gobs of new money and borrow it at ridiculously low rates. Provinces have to do their borrowing on the open market.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 11:59:23 am
How is that dumb guys, it is exactly the way this government is financing this deficit. They aren't the only ones, there isn't enough liquidity in the world to finance the amount of money national governments are borrowing since last spring.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 11:59:35 am
Won’t keep me up. Just another opinion from whoever the hell Tombe is.

https://econ.ucalgary.ca/profiles/trevor-tombe

Quote
Debt is debt and the same people are paying for all of it.

So to you, a $300,000 mortgage is the same as $300,000 in credit card debt?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 12:00:29 pm
How is that dumb guys, it is exactly the way this government is financing this deficit. They aren't the only ones, there isn't enough liquidity in the world to finance the amount of money governments are borrowing since last spring.

There is a ton of liquidity in the world. It's immaterial anyway, as after next year, the federal debt load will again begin to shrink in the terms that really matter.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 12:02:27 pm
https://econ.ucalgary.ca/profiles/trevor-tombe

So to you, a $300,000 mortgage is the same as $300,000 in credit card debt?

The only difference is the interest rate and that is not cast in stone.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 12:06:56 pm
There is a ton of liquidity in the world. It's immaterial anyway, as after next year, the federal debt load will again begin to shrink in the terms that really matter.

Governments are printing their own liquidity and dumping it into economies that don't have the growth to justify it.
The servicing the debt load will only decrease as long as the government can continue to depress interest rates. Which BTW is a real kick in the nuts for people like retirees who rely on their investments for their income.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2020, 12:12:02 pm
The only difference is the interest rate and that is not cast in stone.

Except a mortgage is usually money spent to acquire an asset, one which often will rise in value.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 12:25:42 pm
Except a mortgage is usually money spent to acquire an asset, one which often will rise in value.

Only when you sell it. You can use a credit card to buy things that increase in value as well. What has that to do with government spending?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2020, 12:53:25 pm
Only when you sell it. You can use a credit card to buy things that increase in value as well. What has that to do with government spending?

Well for starters you can borrow money against an asset, and as to your question, gov't spending strategy can increase economic growth which in turn makes the debt less burdensome unlike a consumer out on a spending spree with their charge card.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 01:02:51 pm
Well for starters you can borrow money against an asset, and as to your question, gov't spending strategy can increase economic growth which in turn makes the debt less burdensome unlike a consumer out on a spending spree with their charge card.

Consumer spending is our biggest source of economic growth. Governments don't produce wealth, they just redistribute it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2020, 02:13:10 pm
Consumer spending is our biggest source of economic growth. Governments don't produce wealth, they just redistribute it.
And redistributing it creates growth.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 02:18:03 pm
And redistributing it creates growth.

What's better, a dollar spent by a consumer that was a result of real economic activity or a dollar printed by government and just thrown into the economy?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 02:19:18 pm
Sure. It's also inflationary and reduces competitiveness.
The initial cost of a harder earlier response to climate change like a pandemic will lead to a less expensive outcome than experienced by those who try to avoid or believe the initial cost will be worse. There comes a point when the cost of avoiding will backfire and leave economies that fail to act early un-competitive.

It reminds me of the Ant and Grasshopper story. More recent versions try to make the Ant out to be more compassionate towards the Grasshopper when he comes begging instead of the original fable where the Ant tells the Grasshopper to get lost. It's a little more than ironic to see so-called developed countries pleading their case to carry on like some developing country that stills needs more time to catch up.  Sorta like an ant deciding it would rather be a grasshopper.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2020, 02:22:33 pm
What's better, a dollar spent by a consumer that was a result of real economic activity or a dollar printed by government and just thrown into the economy?

Neither is better, both generate growth.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 02:24:13 pm
Consumer spending is our biggest source of economic growth. Governments don't produce wealth, they just redistribute it.

They also borrow wealth from future generations to make today's generations wealthier.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 02:25:47 pm
Neither is better, both generate growth.

Nope, one is a result of actual growth and the other is artificial.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2020, 02:29:01 pm
Nope, one is a result of actual growth and the other is artificial.

Actual growth does come from government spending, and the comparison to a dollar spent on credit card debt is faulty.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 02:38:28 pm
Actual growth does come from government spending, and the comparison to a dollar spent on credit card debt is faulty.

The gov helps facilitate growth.  It builds public infrastructure, creates laws, helps with trade policy etc.  It hardly produces/sells much GDP.  It facilitates growth, it doesn't produce it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 02:39:09 pm
Actual growth does come from government spending, and the comparison to a dollar spent on credit card debt is faulty.

The money that pays off the credit card has to come from real economic activity.

Where does the government get the money to spend?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 02:43:25 pm
Where does the government get the money to spend?
Isn't it just thin air based on some half-baked notions of collateral backing it up?

I suggest we use that 10 thousand quadrillion dollar rock out in the asteroid belt. A real pie-in-the-sky that actually exists.  Like a cherry just waiting to be picked.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 02:46:59 pm
Isn't it just thin air based on some half-baked notions of collateral backing it up?

I suggest we use that 10 thousand quadrillion dollar rock out in the asteroid belt. A real pie-in-the-sky that actually exists.  Like a cherry just waiting to be picked.

A country's GDP has to back it up or no one will believe in it. Ability to repay debt has to back it up.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 02:51:23 pm
A country's GDP has to back it up or no one will believe in it.
So belief is all it takes? In this day and age...easy peasy.  All it should take is to get a bunch of the world's central bankers together to roll up their sleeves, sharpen their pencils, innovate and figure it out.  Kicking cans down the road is how humanity has rolled for centuries.
Quote
Ability to repay debt has to back it up.
A spacecraft just landed in the Australian outback carrying a rock from the asteroid belt. Believe it or not.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 02:55:46 pm
So belief is all it takes? In this day and age...easy peasy.
A spacecraft just landed in the Australian outback carrying a rock from the asteroid belt. Believe it or not.

Every currency has value only because people have confidence in it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 02:59:10 pm
A country's GDP...
A half-baked notion in other words.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 03:01:32 pm
Every currency has value only because people have confidence in it.
So I would suggest we add bakers and confidence men to the gathering of central bankers.

I get the difficulty and I think its almost entirely due to the fact that we live in countries instead of on a planet.

We need a single global currency which I suppose was gold at one time but...I bet there's lots of gold amongst all that pie up there too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 03:06:03 pm
A half-baked notion in other words.

It's the value of goods and services an economy produces.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 03:11:06 pm
It's the value of goods and services an economy produces.
On a planet with shrinking resources.  There's belief and then the suspension of disbelief.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 03:15:44 pm
On a planet with shrinking resources.  There's belief and then the suspension of disbelief.

Printing money that doesn't reflect the real output of your economy is the real suspension of belief.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2020, 03:18:54 pm
The money that pays off the credit card has to come from real economic activity.

Where does the government get the money to spend?

Ah, from real economic activity. It's called taxes, and reinvesting it can create real economic activity.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 03:20:33 pm
Ah, from real economic activity. It's called taxes, and reinvesting it can create real economic activity.

Taxing what? If there is nothing to tax, where does the money come from?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 03:25:03 pm
Let's lay some shame shall we!

Woman makes less than $5k net income in a small cake business and takes $18,500 from CERB and complains that she has to give it back.  Making her give it back before Xmas is a bit cruel and I don't agree with that, but like WTF woman??

A true patriot!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 03:34:20 pm
It's the value of goods and services an economy produces.
Is it that difficult a stretch to extend this to be about the value of goods and services humanity produces?  That's pretty much what a gathering of central bankers would have to grapple with.

Maybe a bit of faith instead of belief would be better.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 03:49:42 pm
Is it that difficult a stretch to extend this to be about the value of goods and services humanity produces?  That's pretty much what a gathering of central bankers would have to grapple with.

Maybe a bit of faith instead of belief would be better.



Who would administer that currency? Would we need a world government as well? The EU has enough trouble keeping the Euro together.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 03:53:04 pm
Only when you sell it. You can use a credit card to buy things that increase in value as well. What has that to do with government spending?

When  government's borrow money from their own central bank, it creates an asset in the form of interest bearing dollars.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 03:54:27 pm
Consumer spending is our biggest source of economic growth. Governments don't produce wealth, they just redistribute it.

That's a misnomer. Governments can create significant wealth and growth with investment. Properly redistributed wealth can also create significant growth as opposed to leaving money cloistered at the top.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 03:55:06 pm
What's better, a dollar spent by a consumer that was a result of real economic activity or a dollar printed by government and just thrown into the economy?

That depends on the situation. Often, they're equally valuable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 03:56:21 pm
They also borrow wealth from future generations to make today's generations wealthier.

Money borrowed is sent into today's economy, building a larger base for the growth of tomorrow's economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 03:56:57 pm
The gov helps facilitate growth.  It builds public infrastructure, creates laws, helps with trade policy etc.  It hardly produces/sells much GDP.  It facilitates growth, it doesn't produce it.

Government can do both.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 03:58:27 pm
Where does the government get the money to spend?

Well, to be technical, money comes from government. The value behind the money comes from the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 04:00:17 pm
Every currency has value only because people have confidence in it.

Yes, and because we now have a reserve currency, the confidence in that is far harder to shake.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 04:02:03 pm
Governments are printing their own liquidity and dumping it into economies that don't have the growth to justify it.

You're worried about non existent inflation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 04:05:24 pm
When  government's borrow money from their own central bank, it creates an asset in the form of interest bearing dollars.

The only reason they can afford to borrow money from their central bank is by keeping interest rates at or near zero. Anything they bear is more than eaten up by inflation. They depend on inflation to cover the cost of borrowing so the currency becomes worth less and less. There is nothing new here, nothing that says you can all of a sudden get something for nothing.
 
Why don't we all just sit at home. The government can just print and send us money which we will use to buy stuff from countries that actually produce something.
How long do you think that will last?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 04:09:54 pm
If you buy a government bond right now, by the time you factor in inflation and income tax, you are about 3% in the hole.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 04:11:13 pm
If you buy a government bond right now, by the time you factor in inflation and income tax, you are about 3% in the hole.

We've been through this. People still see the bonds as a safe place to put money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 13, 2020, 04:27:11 pm


Who would administer that currency? Would we need a world government as well? The EU has enough trouble keeping the Euro together.
Like I said I get the difficulty but I don't see anyway past it without a broad change in outlook.  I think we're capable but maybe I need to reassess that belief...I'm just afraid that'll cause me to suspend my hope and take up drinking or something.

Sailing! That's the answer.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 04:27:42 pm
This is a great visualization of the cost vs rebate of the carbon tax. You have to spend a lot before it begins to affect you negatively. Spending on the bottom, net cost on the side:

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 04:53:22 pm
We've been through this. People still see the bonds as a safe place to put money.


It's only safer than putting it under your mattress because no one can break into your house and steal it.

I'll get personal here. I'm lucky enough to have a company pension and hopefully it will stay funded in this economy. It isn't indexed so I get the same amount I did when I retired 14 years ago and it won't change until I die. My investments are my indexing. Because of my age I keep about 65% in fixed income securities, mostly GIC's. Every year between 25 and 30% of them roll over. This year, GIC's I held paying 3% are now rolling over at 1.5% and in another two years, all the ones I held last year will roll over. I'm seeing a 50% drop in the so called secure income from those investments and I will probably pay a 20% or so income tax on that paltry amount. Like I said, slightly better than keeping cash under my mattress. I'll survive but I know lots of people who don't have pensions and rely almost entirely on their investments for their income. Meanwhile governments are piling on more taxes, eroding buying power even farther. This isn't some university prof economic theory, it's real people
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 04:54:52 pm
This is a great visualization of the cost vs rebate of the carbon tax. You have to spend a lot before it begins to affect you negatively. Spending on the bottom, net cost on the side:

I'm not saying we shouldn't address it but not doing it in lock step with the US will accomplish nothing but damage our own economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:03:57 pm
I'm not saying we shouldn't address it but not doing it in lock step with the US will accomplish nothing but damage our own economy.

We are one of the largest per capita emitters on the planet. If countries like Canada don't act, then everyone might as well give up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:10:34 pm
We are one of the largest per capita emitters on the planet. If countries like Canada don't act, then everyone might as well give up.

Well, killing our economy is an effective way of reducing emissions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:23:05 pm
Well, killing our economy is an effective way of reducing emissions.

Carbon taxes haven't killed any country to this point. That's fear mongering. Most corporations want to be seen investing where there is a real plan and effort to tackle climate change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 05:37:24 pm
I'm not saying we shouldn't address it but not doing it in lock step with the US will accomplish nothing but damage our own economy.

Depends how much it hurts our businesses in competition with the US.  I guess we'll see.  If it does hurt our businesses significantly I'd say roll them back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:39:20 pm
Carbon taxes haven't killed any country to this point. That's fear mongering. Most corporations want to be seen investing where there is a real plan and effort to tackle climate change.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 05:40:56 pm
Well, killing our economy is an effective way of reducing emissions.

Even if climate change doesn’t kill our economy first, it will cause mass human misery in other parts of the world.  Droughts, floods, food shortages, mass human migration to safer places, like ours. 

Wanna pay now to avoid it, or do you want others to pay later when the real suffering gets out of hand?

You seem to want to keep everything you’ve got, squeeze whatever you can out of it now, and screw the future earthlings.  That’s nigh-sociopathic. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:43:33 pm
Even if climate change doesn’t kill our economy first, it will cause mass human misery in other parts of the world.  Droughts, floods, food shortages, mass human migration to safer places, like ours. 

Wanna pay now to avoid it, or do you want others to pay later when the real suffering gets out of hand?

You seem to want to keep everything you’ve got, squeeze whatever you can out of it now, and screw the future earthlings.  That’s nigh-sociopathic.

We are responsible for less than 2% of global emissions. We can pay and accomplish nothing. We need to do this in concert with the US.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 05:46:03 pm
We are one of the largest per capita emitters on the planet. If countries like Canada don't act, then everyone might as well give up.

That's a slippery-slope fallacy.  Other countries don't share a massive border with the US.  Not sure why you're always so concerned with what other countries do, as if Canada should be following other countries like lemmings.  We should only follow them if it's good for Canada and the policies are sound.

My stance is we need to reduce emissions while keeping an eye on how it affects businesses too.  We need to reduce emissions but also not kill our economy over a few tenths of a percentage of global emissions, i'm sure there's a happy balance somewhere.

We're in a unique situation in that our trade is tied to the US more than any other country, we're in direct competition, and they haven't been playing ball on the climate front.  The Biden admin may change things, but it also depends on Congress, and the state governors, and voters may not be happy with carbon taxes like ours.  So we'll see. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:47:01 pm
We are responsible for less than 2% of global emissions. We can pay and accomplish nothing. We need to do this in concert with the US.

We are responsible for a disproportionate part of global emissions. Most of the western world is moving on this. We can't afford to wait for anyone. The US, like Alberta, may have to be dragged kicking and screaming. The more countries that are on board, the better.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 05:48:51 pm
Carbon taxes haven't killed any country to this point. That's fear mongering. Most corporations want to be seen investing where there is a real plan and effort to tackle climate change.

I'm sure they do, at least for PR, but profit is king.  If you spend a ton on green initiatives and it increases costs and you can't compete, you lose money, and shareholders aren't into that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:48:59 pm
We should only follow them if it's good for Canada and the policies are sound.

Many parts of the US are doing more than us. California for one. Mitigating the cost of climate change is good for everyone, Canada included. The side benefit is that we get a better environment out of the deal.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 05:49:21 pm
We are responsible for less than 2% of global emissions. We can pay and accomplish nothing. We need to do this in concert with the US.

You don’t think that the technology developed and implemented by wester nations will be used by the remainder of the world?

By that logic, we should still be using coal power.   Why use cleaner energy when we’re not that big of a polluter?

That’s asinine.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 05:49:55 pm
We are responsible for less than 2% of global emissions. We can pay and accomplish nothing. We need to do this in concert with the US.

I'm sure we can afford to be a bit ahead of them at least and not suffer for it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:50:29 pm
We are responsible for a disproportionate part of global emissions. Most of the western world is moving on this. We can't afford to wait for anyone. The US, like Alberta, may have to be dragged kicking and screaming. The more countries that are on board, the better.

Still, we could go zero emissions and accomplish next to zero on a global scale.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 05:51:38 pm
Still, we could go zero emissions and accomplish next to zero on a global scale.

Exactly.  So we should do our part, but not bother punishing ourselves for it even if it "feels good" to some.  We need to be logical about it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:52:38 pm
Still, we could go zero emissions and accomplish next to zero on a global scale.

Europe has promised to do more than us, and is actually getting there. We aren't the only ones doing this. We have to act together.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 05:52:50 pm
Still, we could go zero emissions and accomplish next to zero on a global scale.

If we could find a way to go zero emissions, don’t you think others would follow suit?

It’s not the 3rd world that creates new tech.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:53:54 pm
Exactly.  So we should do our part, but not bother punishing ourselves for it even if it "feels good" to some.  We need to be logical about it.

If we're being logical, we need to implement scientifically sound policies. That is, policies that keep us under 1.5C warming. Even this plan is short of that (this is the 2C plan), and more will need to be done over the next few years to get us there.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:54:12 pm
I'm sure we can afford to be a bit ahead of them at least and not suffer for it.

Yes but that is not what is being proposed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:56:23 pm
If we could find a way to go zero emissions, don’t you think others would follow suit?

It’s not the 3rd world that creates new tech.

Depends how you do it. Badly damaging your economy wouldn't be one of them.
Could they afford your fancy new tech?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:57:28 pm
Yes but that is not what is being proposed.

What is being proposed isn't as drastic as you seem to think. Incentivizing the decarbonization of the economy with measures that recycle money back into the economy will drive consumer spending on clean tech, which is what we want.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:58:49 pm
Europe has promised to do more than us, and is actually getting there. We aren't the only ones doing this. We have to act together.


We will always have higher per capita emissions than Europe, our population, geography and weather guarantee it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 05:59:40 pm
What is being proposed isn't as drastic as you seem to think. Incentivizing the decarbonization of the economy with measures that recycle money back into the economy will drive consumer spending on clean tech, which is what we want.

Taxing the ass off people doesn't result in increased consumer spending.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 05:59:48 pm
Depends how you do it. Badly damaging your economy wouldn't be one of them.

You keep saying this, but I'm not sure how anything is being damaged by this. This is giving market forces a shove to complete a necessary process within the necessary timeline. 2030 is the red line year, and 2050 is endgame. We need to do more to keep to a 1.5C scenario. If we aren't at carbon neutral by 2050 as a planet, exponential carbon growth will become self fulfilling.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 06:00:14 pm
Depends how you do it. Badly damaging your economy wouldn't be one of them.
Could they afford your fancy new tech?

No one said drastically damage the economy.

A modest carbon tax...  you are being totally hyperbolic about this again.  Good lord Wilber...   You’re seriously being a complete right-wing nut on this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 06:00:19 pm
We will always have higher per capita emissions than Europe, our population, geography and weather guarantee it.

That isn't an excuse for us to do nothing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:00:57 pm
That isn't an excuse for us to do nothing.

Never said it was.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 06:01:34 pm
Taxing the ass off people doesn't result in increased consumer spending.

The way the carbon tax and rebate is structured, those at the bottom and in the middle tend to benefit the most financially.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 06:03:09 pm
The way the carbon tax and rebate is structured, those at the bottom and in the middle tend to benefit the most financially.

Wilber doesn’t want to pay more, so screw doing anything about climate change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:03:17 pm
You keep saying this, but I'm not sure how anything is being damaged by this. This is giving market forces a shove to complete a necessary process within the necessary timeline. 2030 is the red line year, and 2050 is endgame. We need to do more to keep to a 1.5C scenario. If we aren't at carbon neutral by 2050 as a planet, exponential carbon growth will become self fulfilling.

And little old Canada that produces 1.6% of global emissions is going to do that. Do you think what we do will give our biggest trading partner and competitor "a shove"?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:03:52 pm
The way the carbon tax and rebate is structured, those at the bottom and in the middle tend to benefit the most financially.
That won't last
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 06:04:43 pm
That won't last

And it may not. There may in fact be better uses for the revenue. As of now, that's the plan, and anything else is speculation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 06:05:33 pm
If we're being logical, we need to implement scientifically sound policies. That is, policies that keep us under 1.5C warming. Even this plan is short of that (this is the 2C plan), and more will need to be done over the next few years to get us there.

Yes I agree. And we should have a focus too on policies that have the most bang for the buck...that have the most impact on reducing emissions while ideally limiting costs to our economy where possible.  What I'm at least nervous about is very costly reductions in areas that will have a low impact on emissions.   I'm not against carbon taxes etc, i'm just saying we need to be smart about it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 06:06:13 pm
What is being proposed isn't as drastic as you seem to think. Incentivizing the decarbonization of the economy with measures that recycle money back into the economy will drive consumer spending on clean tech, which is what we want.

Yes, people need to know about the rebates being given back to consumers and small businesses.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:07:16 pm
Wilber doesn’t want to pay more, so screw doing anything about climate change.

Bullshit. I don't see the point in shooting myself in the foot if we can't work with the country that is our biggest competitor and produces 10 times as much CO2.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:08:53 pm
And it may not. There may in fact be better uses for the revenue. As of now, that's the plan, and anything else is speculation.
'It won't. Anyone who lives in BC knows it. There is far too much money involved for government to keep its hands off. It's just bait and switch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 06:11:23 pm
Bullshit. I don't see the point in shooting myself in the foot if we can't work with the country that is our biggest competitor and produces 10 times as much CO2.

So do nothing.  THat’s asinine.

There’s a reason we got rid of other pollutants, even if we weren’t the major polluter.  See: ozone hole.   we led, others followed and it was fixed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 06:14:58 pm
Yes I agree. And we should have a focus too on policies that have the most bang for the buck...that have the most impact on reducing emissions while ideally limiting costs to our economy where possible.  What I'm at least nervous about is very costly reductions in areas that will have a low impact on emissions.   I'm not against carbon taxes etc, i'm just saying we need to be smart about it.

Most of the evidence I've seen point to the carbon tax as the most cost effective way to do this. Last year, a panel recommended a $210 per tonne by 2030 tax to meet our Paris goal. This plan takes a blended approach, with the slightly lower tax, old measures, and new measures to get us slightly past the Paris goal. The 32% we now hope to reach is still short of the 40% Canada needs to do as a country, and if we're serious, governments at all levels will need to announce more measures in the next 2-3 years.

Or so I've read.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 06:17:22 pm
'It won't. Anyone who lives in BC knows it. There is far too much money involved for government to keep its hands off. It's just bait and switch.

For most of the existence of the carbon tax in BC, the government has actually had it be revenue negative. There are still rebates, but some of the money goes to furthering the goal of decarbonization.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:24:08 pm
For most of the existence of the carbon tax in BC, the government has actually had it be revenue negative. There are still rebates, but some of the money goes to furthering the goal of decarbonization.

Nope, goes straight into general revenue. There is no longer a law that makes it revenue neutral, the NDP got rid of it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 06:29:54 pm
Nope, goes straight into general revenue. There is no longer a law that makes it revenue neutral, the NDP got rid of it.

I don't think you should see fiscal discipline and surpluses as a bad thing, given your stated positions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 06:31:33 pm
Nope, goes straight into general revenue. There is no longer a law that makes it revenue neutral, the NDP got rid of it.

That doesn’t negate the impacts of the tax on use of fossil fuels.  It just means they don’t need to raise other taxes for revenue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 06:32:44 pm
I don't think you should see fiscal discipline and surpluses as a bad thing, given your stated positions.

But Wilber doesn’t like the NDP, so balanced budgets magically are a bad thing when they’re in charge... 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:34:18 pm
So do nothing.  THat’s asinine.

There’s a reason we got rid of other pollutants, even if we weren’t the major polluter.  See: ozone hole.   we led, others followed and it was fixed.

We replaced CFC's with HFC's and now we are trying to get rid of them because they are big time greenhouse gases.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 06:35:25 pm
But Wilber doesn’t like the NDP, so balanced budgets magically are a bad thing when they’re in charge...

Who said that? Guess what they are using the carbon tax for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 06:58:06 pm
Government can do both.

Name a product the government manufactures (wealth).  I'm sure there's probably some, but it's not a lot.

As I said, government helps facilitate the production of wealth, typically from taxes or borrowing, it isn't a main wealth producer.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 07:01:21 pm
Let's lay some shame shall we!

Woman makes less than $5k net income in a small cake business and takes $18,500 from CERB and complains that she has to give it back.  Making her give it back before Xmas is a bit cruel and I don't agree with that, but like WTF woman??

A true patriot!

Forgot to post the link:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-cerb-benefits-payback-1.5838395

This is the stuff the Liberals are trying to hide.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 07:03:09 pm
Forgot to post the link:  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-cerb-benefits-payback-1.5838395

This is the stuff the Liberals are trying to hide.

We would never be able to know something like that unless criminal charges were brought. It would be a clear privacy violation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 07:03:44 pm
The Pfizer BioNTech COVID vaccine has arrived in Canada:

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 07:10:07 pm
We would never be able to know something like that unless criminal charges were brought. It would be a clear privacy violation.

They don't have to use anyone's name or personal info.

Taxpayers have a right to know if some people generally are making significantly more income due to COVID benefits.

Thankfully this woman was caught.  For some reason she voluntarily outed herself, that's her issue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 07:18:54 pm
Thankfully this woman was caught.  For some reason she voluntarily outed herself, that's her issue.

She would have been caught anyway. I know a lot of people who have had follow up. Everyone will be caught, as the money literally came from the government, and the government will require them to provide proof of eligibility. We won't know how many people have to repay the benefit until that is sorted out, and that was never planned to be completed until well after tax time next year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 13, 2020, 07:48:48 pm
We replaced CFC's with HFC's and now we are trying to get rid of them because they are big time greenhouse gases.

Why would we ever get rid of them? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 08:06:50 pm
She would have been caught anyway. I know a lot of people who have had follow up. Everyone will be caught, as the money literally came from the government, and the government will require them to provide proof of eligibility. We won't know how many people have to repay the benefit until that is sorted out, and that was never planned to be completed until well after tax time next year.

She may have a case. She made the application based on gross income. The requirement for net income wasn't added to the application until a month after she applied. Apparently she isn't the only one caught out by this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 09:21:37 pm
She may have a case. She made the application based on gross income. The requirement for net income wasn't added to the application until a month after she applied. Apparently she isn't the only one caught out by this.

Let's say she did qualify and she had $6000 net income.  Should she be entitled to $18,500?  That seems off.  Nobody would ever get that on EI, not even close.

Profiting off the benefits gives no incentive to get off of them, in fact it's the reverse.  I get that it was impossible to do timely claims like EI, but what kind of system is this??  All you'd have to do for people out of work is have people who apply self-identity their net income they were making and are losing and then CERB would give them a % of that.  Then the gov can check the numbers later.  The flat $500-a-week is crazy for those that don't make full-time income.

I'm starting to see why Morneau, the Deputy Minister of Finance, the Governor of the Bank of Canada, and the Bank of Canada 2nd in command have all resigned since COVID.  The poop is going to hit the fan.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 09:39:43 pm
Profiting off the benefits gives no incentive to get off of them, in fact it's the reverse. 

That's a straw man, since the benefits had/have an expiry timeline.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 09:41:12 pm
All you'd have to do for people out of work is have people who apply self-identity their net income they were making and are losing and then CERB would give them a % of that.

That would have made it infinitely more complex. It's the same reason that there wasn't a graduated cut off, and it was simply set at $1000. Processing millions of applications at a time was only possible if it was basically an on/off switch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 13, 2020, 09:56:38 pm
Let's say she did qualify and she had $6000 net income.  Should she be entitled to $18,500?  That seems off.  Nobody would ever get that on EI, not even close.

Profiting off the benefits gives no incentive to get off of them, in fact it's the reverse.  I get that it was impossible to do timely claims like EI, but what kind of system is this??  All you'd have to do for people out of work is have people who apply self-identity their net income they were making and are losing and then CERB would give them a % of that.  Then the gov can check the numbers later.  The flat $500-a-week is crazy for those that don't make full-time income.

I'm starting to see why Morneau, the Deputy Minister of Finance, the Governor of the Bank of Canada, and the Bank of Canada 2nd in command have all resigned since COVID.  The poop is going to hit the fan.


No I don't but that's what they were doing. But we don't need to know things like that .
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 10:02:37 pm
That's a straw man, since the benefits had/have an expiry timeline.

What do you mean by this?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 10:07:14 pm
What do you mean by this?

There's n incentive to get off of the benefits. The benefits don't last forever.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 10:07:45 pm
That would have made it infinitely more complex. It's the same reason that there wasn't a graduated cut off, and it was simply set at $1000. Processing millions of applications at a time was only possible if it was basically an on/off switch.

It would have been automatic, it's not complex at all.  You self-identify your income/wage, the computer calculates a single number based on a % of your income  (or something of the sort), and then the money is deposited in your bank account.  The government can double check the numbers later come income tax time over whatever timeline they want.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 10:10:01 pm
It would have been automatic, it's not complex at all.  You self-identify your income/wage, the computer calculates a single number based on a % of your income  (or something of the sort), and then the money is deposited in your bank account.  The government can double check the numbers later come income tax time over whatever timeline they want.

Lol, you overestimate the government computer system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 10:11:13 pm
There's n incentive to get off of the benefits. The benefits don't last forever.

So what?  Neither does EI, but you're supposed to look for work while on EI.  This woman would be stupid to look for any kind of part-time job as long as the benefits are being paid to her., she's making killer dough.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 10:12:06 pm
Lol, you overestimate the government computer system.

It's one calculation.  ONE.

All you do is make excuses for these people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 10:38:50 pm
It's one calculation.  ONE.

All you do is make excuses for these people.

And you act like everything is as simple as you want to make it. That's the problem with your worldview. It doesn't allow for the nuance of reality.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 10:40:09 pm
So what?  Neither does EI, but you're supposed to look for work while on EI.  This woman would be stupid to look for any kind of part-time job as long as the benefits are being paid to her., she's making killer dough.

You know nothing about her, except that her income for one year is at issue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 10:43:52 pm
CERB wasn't a work disincentive for the vast majority of participants: [attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 10:46:03 pm
You know nothing about her, except that her income for one year is at issue.

I'm not talking about her.  I'm talking about someone who made, say, $6000 net annually before COVID.

Nothing about her or anyone else would be relevant to the government except for her income before COVID and that she was willing/able to work but couldn't due to the COVID.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 10:49:20 pm
And you act like everything is as simple as you want to make it. That's the problem with your worldview. It doesn't allow for the nuance of reality.

Nonsense.

The problem with your worldview is you give the Liberal government the benefit of the doubt ~95% of the time, and accuse the media including the CBC of "gotcha journalism" and headline seeking when they're trying to report the facts.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 10:49:43 pm
I'm not talking about her.  I'm talking about someone who made, say, $6000 net annually before COVID.

Nothing about her or anyone else would be relevant to the government except for her income before COVID and that she was willing/able to work but couldn't due to the COVID.

You forget that part of the entire point of CERB was as a disincentive for work. The country was trying to control the pandemic and was under lockdown. We wanted to make it worthwhile for people to stay home....and it worked.

Also, like I said - straw man.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 10:51:30 pm
Nonsense.

The problem with your worldview is you give the Liberal government the benefit of the doubt ~95% of the time, and accuse the media including the CBC of "gotcha journalism" and headline seeking when they're trying to report the facts.

People in government tend to be intelligent and benevolent most of the time. That is especially true of the non political actors. The CBC is the best in the country journalistically, but as they are beholden to advertising revenue, are not above the techniques of private media. The piece you're referring to was an opinion piece, btw.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 10:59:34 pm
You forget that part of the entire point of CERB was as a disincentive for work. The country was trying to control the pandemic and was under lockdown. We wanted to make it worthwhile for people to stay home....and it worked.

Also, like I said - straw man.

It can't be a strawman, I was arguing my own point, not against somebody else's.

CERB was income replacement for people who lost work/jobs due to COVID.  That's it.  Most people who stopped working had no choice but to stay home because of gov lockdowns.  It shouldn't have allowed for profit-making.

What a waste of public money.  Hopefully it will all come out eventually.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 13, 2020, 11:04:02 pm
People in government tend to be intelligent and benevolent most of the time.

That's a gross over-generalization.  A lot of people in government also look out for their own butts and careers over the public good.  You like the Liberals, you make excuses for them, I get it.  You don't make the same excuses for Trump or Scheer/O'Toole.

We'll see what comes out after tax season.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 11:04:36 pm
It can't be a strawman, I was arguing my own point, not against somebody else's.

You created a fake person in order to argue that the person had no reason to go back to work because of CERB. Edit - not a straw man though, I admit.

This real person took CERB, shouldn't have, and was caught. Such is life.

Quote
It shouldn't have allowed for profit-making.

It wasn't.

Quote
What a waste of public money.

It wasn't.

Quote
Hopefully it will all come out eventually.

Each person will be dealt with. It will take a very long time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 13, 2020, 11:06:38 pm
That's a gross over-generalization.  A lot of people in government also look out for their own butts and careers over the public good.  You like the Liberals, you make excuses for them, I get it.  You don't make the same excuses for Trump or Scheer/O'Toole.

Trump is an idiot. I did make 'excuses' for Harper, even if he wasn't my first choice, and you always tend to paper over that. I also used to make 'excuses' for Brian Pallister, but his incompetence has killed hundreds. Also, I've admitted to being a Liberal. I wasn't aware that was a crime. If you can criticize an action, I can defend it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2020, 02:25:56 pm
You created a fake person in order to argue that the person had no reason to go back to work because of CERB. Edit - not a straw man though, I admit.

There's lots of part-timers who had to stop working, and with certainty there will be those who will make a profit off the CERB.   It's the rules i'm against.  A $5000 income threshold that allows somebody to make $18,500+ from benefits is ridiculous.  And many people normally making 10k who can make 20k on CERB aren't going to bother going back to work.

Quote
Each person will be dealt with. It will take a very long time.

I'm not so worried about the ones who broke the rules and will be caught, it's the ones that took advantage of the rules for financial gain and will never have to give the money back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 14, 2020, 05:07:21 pm
I'm not so worried about the ones who broke the rules and will be caught, it's the ones that took advantage of the rules for financial gain and will never have to give the money back.

The program was designed to replace lost income, to be stimulative, and to disincentivize work. Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2020, 05:35:22 pm
The program was designed to replace lost income, to be stimulative, and to disincentive work. Mission accomplished.

Ya, it could get you a 350% raise.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 14, 2020, 05:51:22 pm
Ya, it could get you a 350% raise.

It didn’t though....  that lady hoped it would.

But why would we want someone even looking for work during COVID?  Best to pay people to stay home and not spread it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2020, 06:08:32 pm
It didn’t though....  that lady hoped it would.

If you made $5000 or more income you were eligible for $2000 every 4 weeks.  So ya it did.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2020, 06:11:45 pm
The program was designed to replace lost income, to be stimulative, and to disincentivize work. Mission accomplished.

You can't just give some people ie: 10 grand more than they'd normally make for free, and give other Canadians like stay-at-home moms nothing.  That's not any kind of fair/equitable way to provide stimulus.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 14, 2020, 06:18:51 pm
You can't just give some people ie: 10 grand more than they'd normally make for free.

You keep harping on this as if it was the majority of what happened. Yes, CERB overshot, but not by a huge amount. We're talking about an average of 20%.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 14, 2020, 06:21:39 pm
You can't just give some people ie: 10 grand more than they'd normally make for free, and give other Canadians like stay-at-home moms nothing.  That's not any kind of fair/equitable way to provide stimulus.
This is why a universal basic income is the only way to clear the decks until tax time when CRA can sort it all out.  This isn't an issue that's just related to COVID, issues around eligibility and entitlement have been plaguing politics for damn near a couple centuries now.

I suggest a special benefit for cranky-pated pinch-faced coupon-clippers who refuse or can't get over their moral issues and fear of communism.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2020, 06:36:35 pm
You keep harping on this as if it was the majority of what happened. Yes, CERB overshot, but not by a huge amount. We're talking about an average of 20%.

I never said it was the majority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 14, 2020, 08:56:34 pm
It didn’t though....  that lady hoped it would.

But why would we want someone even looking for work during COVID?  Best to pay people to stay home and not spread it.

The point is, anyone who had a net income of more than 5K could collect it and that could amount to an over 300% raise. Why would they look for work. There are people out there begging for help.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 14, 2020, 09:53:17 pm
The point is, anyone who had a net income of more than 5K could collect it and that could amount to an over 300% raise. Why would they look for work. There are people out there begging for help.

There are still needed jobs.  Grocery stores, restaurant delivery, Uber eats etc., Amazon, package delivery, and most retail and services are still open in most cities.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 16, 2020, 10:02:20 am
Opinions?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 16, 2020, 10:52:41 am
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/carla-qualtrough-hoped-canada-would-embrace-ottawas-risk-taking-liberals-did-it-work/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 16, 2020, 10:53:54 am
Next paragraph, like I said earlier:

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 16, 2020, 11:23:18 am
It was a perfectly reasonable response to an economic crisis brought on by a worldwide pandemic. 

Get the $$$ out the door and worry about it later.  Frankly, anyone who doesn’t recognize that there were no good options doesn’t understand, or refuses to understand. 

There are PLENTY of things to criticize about this government, but this isn’t one of them.

I just hope that government recognizes that a UBI is the way to go to combat crises like this in the future. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2020, 02:44:44 pm
There are still needed jobs.  Grocery stores, restaurant delivery, Uber eats etc., Amazon, package delivery, and most retail and services are still open in most cities.

Precarious, low-paying jobs all. If those are the options, I'd stay home too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2020, 02:54:31 pm
Precarious, low-paying jobs all. If those are the options, I'd stay home too.

And yet someone has to do them or you don't eat or get your stuff.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2020, 03:00:44 pm
And yet someone has to do them or you don't eat or get your stuff.

Strange that such important jobs are so shitty. Maybe the billionaires who run those industries should pay their employees more, offer stability and benefits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2020, 03:04:43 pm
Strange that such important jobs are so shitty. Maybe the billionaires who run those industries should pay their employees more, offer stability and benefits.

Unions used to do that but today’s society isn’t particularly union friendly.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2020, 03:21:52 pm
Unions used to do that but today’s society isn’t particularly union friendly.

Maybe we should nationalize some of these industries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 16, 2020, 03:37:51 pm
I just hope that government recognizes that a UBI is the way to go to combat crises like this in the future.
Making it retroactive to March 2020 would also solidify much of the CERB quagmire the pandemic response has created.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 16, 2020, 05:23:06 pm
Precarious, low-paying jobs all. If those are the options, I'd stay home too.

Yes, why work when you can get free money!

This is the attitude that will create a successful society!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 16, 2020, 05:26:06 pm
And yet someone has to do them or you don't eat or get your stuff.

No.  Stop being logical.  The magic fairies will do these jobs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 16, 2020, 05:29:43 pm
Strange that such important jobs are so shitty. Maybe the billionaires who run those industries should pay their employees more, offer stability and benefits.

Sure I agree with the latter.

The reason why these jobs don't pay well is because they don't take much education and virtually anyone can do them.  Accountants and lawyers get paid more because those take education and some high school student can't just do them for a part-time job.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 16, 2020, 05:31:46 pm
Maybe we should nationalize some of these industries.

 ::)

A much, much better idea is to have better protections for workers who wish to unionize.  Workers feel intimidated and that they'll lose their jobs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 16, 2020, 05:35:43 pm
Strange that such important jobs are so shitty. Maybe the billionaires who run those industries should pay their employees more, offer stability and benefits.
Perhaps the shitty politicians bringing in loads on cheap unskilled labour every year through massive immigration could think of Canadian workers instead for once.  And stop depressing wages by flooding the market with labour.  Perhaps a policy of making labour in higher demand is in order.  Create an environment where employers are competing more for employees.  That’s how real wages will rise above minimum wage.  But we have economic illiterates in charge of our country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2020, 05:37:39 pm
Sure I agree with the latter.

The reason why these jobs don't pay well is because they don't take much education and virtually anyone can do them.  Accountants and lawyers get paid more because those take education and some high school student can't just do them for a part-time job.

And I think compensation should take into account the difficulty of the work and its importance to society. One itinerant farm worker who breaks their backs picking fruit works harder and provide more value than a hundred lawyers and should be compensated appropriately.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2020, 05:38:47 pm
Yes, why work when you can get free money!

This is the attitude that will create a successful society!

"Work a shitty job or die" is a pretty grim way to organize a society to me.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 16, 2020, 05:41:51 pm
Perhaps the shitty politicians bringing in loads on cheap unskilled labour every year through massive immigration could think of Canadian workers instead for once.  And stop depressing wages by flooding the market with labour.  Perhaps a policy of making labour in higher demand is in order.  Create an environment where employers are competing more for employees.  That’s how real wages will rise above minimum wage.  But we have economic illiterates in charge of our country.

Sorry who is it that's employing these workers? It's not the politicians.

But anyway, this is bullshit: wages only go down for Canadian workers when they are competing with newcomers for the same jobs, but that's seldom the case when it comes to cheap unskilled labour.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2020, 05:52:59 pm
"Work a shitty job or die" is a pretty grim way to organize a society to me.

You depend on people with shitty jobs every day.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on December 16, 2020, 06:57:27 pm
You depend on people with shitty jobs every day.
Exactly. Maybe they should be paid a living wage if they are depended on so much. Then it wouldn't be so shitty.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 16, 2020, 07:40:59 pm
And I think compensation should take into account the difficulty of the work and its importance to society. One itinerant farm worker who breaks their backs picking fruit works harder and provide more value than a hundred lawyers and should be compensated appropriately.

Wages are almost always based on market value, so the supply and demand of the particular occupation.

It makes no sense to pay a fruit-picker more money than a lawyer who spends 7 years in university.  Fruit pickers are somewhat easily replaceable, while lawyers aren't.  I do agree pickers should be paid more.  What's bringing down wages for fruit pickers are temporary foreign workers.  Without that program, farmers would have to raise wages to attract workers because it's not a pleasant job.  But then food prices would go up...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2020, 07:51:38 pm
Exactly. Maybe they should be paid a living wage if they are depended on so much. Then it wouldn't be so shitty.

The minimum wage has been going up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 16, 2020, 07:54:22 pm
"Work a shitty job or die" is a pretty grim way to organize a society to me.

This is the way it's been for all of human history.  It's a wonderful way to organize society, because shitty jobs will always exist and always need to be done, and giving everybody a choice between shitty jobs or government welfare means nobody would ever work a shitty job.

If a healthy and able person doesn't want to work but there's work available and they refuse I see no reason why that person shouldn't starve rather than getting society to support them.  It's the equivalent to letting your 30 year old unemployed child live for free in your basement while they sit around and do nothing.  Nothing will ruin a person more psychologically than enabling them to be useless to themselves and society and letting them rot.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 09:57:30 am
This is the way it's been for all of human history.

Child marriage and slavery have been present throughout human history too, doesn't make it good.

Quote
It's a wonderful way to organize society, because shitty jobs will always exist and always need to be done, and giving everybody a choice between shitty jobs or government welfare means nobody would ever work a shitty job.
Quote

That's a false choice. What about work that is meaningful and enhances their lives, community and society?

Quote
If a healthy and able person doesn't want to work but there's work available and they refuse I see no reason why that person shouldn't starve rather than getting society to support them.  It's the equivalent to letting your 30 year old unemployed child live for free in your basement while they sit around and do nothing.  Nothing will ruin a person more psychologically than enabling them to be useless to themselves and society and letting them rot.

Compared to working under the constant spectre of poverty? Compared to be ruined physically by the demands of a job that pays starvation wages? Having been in a situation relatively recently in which I was unable to find steady employment, I can tell you that instability and uncertainty are much much worse on the psyche.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 11:46:14 am
That's a false choice. What about work that is meaningful and enhances their lives, community and society?

Somebody has to clean toilets and pick fruit.  Some of your ideas are naively idealistic.   Cleaning toilets and picking fruit aren't fun, that's why they call it "work".  These jobs have value and contribute to society, as they are needed for it to function just like many other jobs even if they aren't glamorous.  For those that don't want to do these tasks there's all sorts of other jobs they can take.  Nobody is forced to work at any specific job, they just need to find at least one job that pays the bills.

Quote
Compared to working under the constant spectre of poverty? Compared to be ruined physically by the demands of a job that pays starvation wages? Having been in a situation relatively recently in which I was unable to find steady employment, I can tell you that instability and uncertainty are much much worse on the psyche.

Everyone should be paid enough to afford the necessities of life.  For those that can't find steady/full-time employment there should be benefits to top them up.  That's different than not working at all and just sitting at home because you don't want to work at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 11:54:48 am
Somebody has to clean toilets and pick fruit.  Some of your ideas are naively idealistic.   Cleaning toilets and picking fruit aren't fun, that's why they call it "work".  These jobs have value and contribute to society, as they are needed for it to function just like many other jobs even if they aren't glamorous. For those that don't want to do these tasks there's all sorts of other jobs they can take.  Nobody is forced to work at any specific job, they just need to find at least one job that pays the bills.

And yet those important shitty jobs are not distributed across all sectors of society so it's pretty clear that some people are very much forced to work certain jobs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 11:58:35 am
And yet those important shitty jobs are not distributed across all sectors of society so it's pretty clear that some people are very much forced to work certain jobs.

Nobody is forced to do any specific job.  There are many jobs that people with no education or skills can do.  We don't have slavery in this country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 12:04:55 pm
Nobody is forced to do any specific job.  There are many jobs that people with no education or skills can do.  We don't have slavery in this country.

Forced like at gunpoint? No. Forced by circumstances beyond the individual's control because the alternative is poverty and starvation? Absolutely.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2020, 01:48:37 pm
Del
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2020, 01:52:44 pm
Forced like at gunpoint? No. Forced by circumstances beyond the individual's control because the alternative is poverty and starvation? Absolutely.

How is not paying someone for doing anything slavery? Poverty and starvation simply because you don't want to do something is a choice.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 01:58:16 pm
How is not paying someone for doing anything slavery? Poverty and starvation simply because you don't want to do something is a choice.

Working a miserable shitty job or starving to death isn't a choice in any meaningful sense of the term.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2020, 03:11:41 pm
Working a miserable shitty job or starving to death isn't a choice in any meaningful sense of the term.

It's a choice hundreds of millions on this planet face every day. Only we feel this entitled.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 03:23:35 pm
It's a choice hundreds of millions on this planet face every day. Only we feel this entitled.

Ah yes, it's "entitlement" to think we should improve society somewhat.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 17, 2020, 03:30:27 pm
It's a choice hundreds of millions on this planet face every day. Only we feel this entitled.

Why should this be the case anywhere?   Why should misery and barely being able to live be the highest pinnacle for some people? 

“I got mine... screw the rest”
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 03:33:12 pm
Why should this be the case anywhere?   Why should misery and barely being able to live be the highest pinnacle for some people? 

“I got mine... screw the rest”

That thinking is a good example of an is–ought problem.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 03:35:18 pm
Forced like at gunpoint? No. Forced by circumstances beyond the individual's control because the alternative is poverty and starvation? Absolutely.

Yes this is called working.  People work in exchange for money so they can live.  People don't work just for fun.

If you can't find a job you can go on welfare or EI, or if you're too sick or disabled to work you can go on disability.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 03:40:43 pm
Yes this is called working.  People work in exchange for money so they can live.  People don't work just for fun.

No one is disputing that. The issue is the tremendous amount of human ingenuity, creativity and intelligence that undoubtedly going to waste in a struggle to merely survive.

Quote
If you can't find a job you can go on welfare or EI, or if you're too sick or disabled to work you can go on disability.

Ah yes those famously generous and not at all byzantine programs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2020, 03:43:03 pm
Why should this be the case anywhere?   Why should misery and barely being able to live be the highest pinnacle for some people? 

“I got mine... screw the rest”

Because it is, and we forget that.

How much are you willing to give up because 7.7 billion people can't live with our average standard of living, the planet can't sustain it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 03:43:10 pm
Working a miserable shitty job or starving to death isn't a choice in any meaningful sense of the term.

Why not?

Unless somebody genuinely can't find work, no able-bodied person should be entitled to take my money and the money of millions of others at gunpoint (taxes) and live off that in exchange for nothing.  I don't owe anyone a free lunch.  Work is when a person makes a contribution to society and in exchange for that contribution they receive a wage.

If you don't like your miserable shitty job, find a new job, or improve your skills/education in order to get a better job.  I'm fine with helping to fund the education of low income earners to improve skills.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 03:45:06 pm
No one is disputing that. The issue is the tremendous amount of human ingenuity, creativity and intelligence that undoubtedly going to waste in a struggle to merely survive.

Somebody has to clean toilets and pick fruit.   Soon those jobs may be taken by automation and the workers will be unemployed, then those crappy jobs won't look so crappy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 17, 2020, 03:53:00 pm
Somebody has to clean toilets and pick fruit.   Soon those jobs may be taken by automation and the workers will be unemployed, then those crappy jobs won't look so crappy.

Someone has to do them. That doesn't mean that they can't get paid a living wage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 03:54:00 pm
Why not?

If I had you and your family at gunpoint and gave you the choice of me shooting you or one of them, would you consider that a meaningful choice?

Quote
Unless somebody genuinely can't find work, no able-bodied person should be entitled to take my money and the money of millions of others at gunpoint (taxes) and live off that in exchange for nothing. I don't owe anyone a free lunch. Work is when a person makes a contribution to society and in exchange for that contribution they receive a wage.

This is a strawman since very few people would be inclined to sit around and do nothing if they were getting money from the government.

Quote

If you don't like your miserable shitty job, find a new job, or improve your skills/education in order to get a better job.[/b]  I'm fine with helping to fund the education of low income earners to improve skills.


Yeah it always comes back to this bullshit, which is basically "if you don't like being poor, why don't you try being rich instead?"





Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 03:55:13 pm
Somebody has to clean toilets and pick fruit. Soon those jobs may be taken by automation and the workers will be unemployed, then those crappy jobs won't look so crappy.

OK so what do you do when even shitty jobs aren't available? Let people starve?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 04:09:06 pm
Someone has to do them. That doesn't mean that they can't get paid a living wage.

Yes I agree.  $15 an hour in some provinces is a good start, that's 30k a year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 04:23:52 pm
If I had you and your family at gunpoint and gave you the choice of me shooting you or one of them, would you consider that a meaningful choice?
How does that apply to this discussion?

Quote
This is a strawman since very few people would be inclined to sit around and do nothing if they were getting money from the government.
So what would they be doing that is contributing to society in a way that is comparable to paid work?  Parenting might be a possible exception.

Quote
Yeah it always comes back to this bullshit, which is basically "if you don't like being poor, why don't you try being rich instead?"

That's a strawman.  I'm clearly not saying that at all.  I'm saying if you don't like your job, do something to get a job you like better. I believe in a social safety net, and helping people help themselves (via education/skills training), and in a fair living wage.  It sounds like you're a Marxist, and just want to blame people's crappy jobs on somebody else and turn them into a victim, and let the government give people other people's money for nothing.  There's many worse things in the world than having to clean bathrooms.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 04:26:57 pm
OK so what do you do when even shitty jobs aren't available? Let people starve?

As i've said before, if there's no jobs available the government should support these people, like EI and social assistance and re-training etc.  People who are legitimately in need deserve help.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 04:29:42 pm
How does that apply to this discussion?

You asked how "work or starve" is not a meaningful choice; I gave you an analogy to show how choices made under duress aren't actually choices.

Quote
So what would they be doing that is contributing to society in a way that is comparable to paid work?  Parenting might be a possible exception.

Why would you assume I'm not talking about them doing paid work?

Quote
That's a strawman.  I'm clearly not saying that at all. I'm saying if you don't like your job, do something to get a job you like better. I believe in a social safety net, and helping people help themselves (via education/skills training), and in a fair living wage. 

And I'm saying that's a stupid and dismissive response that fails to take into account the myriad reasons why people get stuck doing shitty jobs in the first place. Do you think someone working one or two low-paying, subsistence level jobs with no stability or benefits is doing that because they don't have a work ethic or because they have a ton of other options at the ready?

Quote
It sounds like you're a Marxist, and just want to blame people's crappy jobs on somebody else and turn them into a victim, and let the government give people other people's money for nothing.  There's many worse things in the world than having to clean bathrooms.

You...you don't know much about Marx, do you?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 04:31:24 pm
As i've said before, if there's no jobs available the government should support these people, like EI and social assistance and re-training etc.  People who are legitimately in need deserve help.

And I'm saying we should extend the social safety net beyond providing a bare minimum to people who are on the way down. It should also provide people with a way up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 04:39:23 pm
And I'm saying that's a stupid and dismissive response that fails to take into account the myriad reasons why people get stuck doing shitty jobs in the first place. Do you think someone working one or two low-paying, subsistence level jobs with no stability or benefits is doing that because they don't have a work ethic or because they have a ton of other options at the ready?

Of course there are many reasons.  But what do you want the government to do about that?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 04:44:00 pm
And I'm saying we should extend the social safety net beyond providing a bare minimum to people who are on the way down. It should also provide people with a way up.

What exactly would you want?

The problem is providing too much money to the point of taking the incentive away from looking for work, so you have to balance of giving people what they need in time of need vs providing incentive to become independent.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 05:48:31 pm
Of course there are many reasons.  But what do you want the government to do about that?

Give people money.

Quote
What exactly would you want?

The problem is providing too much money to the point of taking the incentive away from looking for work, so you have to balance of giving people what they need in time of need vs providing incentive to become independent.

Good thing that's not a significant problem. The vast majority of people want to work and will do so whether they are getting money for nothing or not. The difference is an expanded social safety net or universal income supplement would enable them to choose work that they actually want to to do or enjoy doing. And even if it did discourage people from working, it would force businesses to increase wages to attract workers while more people would have more money to spend, creating more demand for jobs.


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 06:25:49 pm
Good thing that's not a significant problem. The vast majority of people want to work and will do so whether they are getting money for nothing or not. The difference is an expanded social safety net or universal income supplement would enable them to choose work that they actually want to to do or enjoy doing.
Who is going to do the work that people don't like to do?  Like cleaning toilets and picking fruit?

Quote
And even if it did discourage people from working, it would force businesses to increase wages to attract workers while more people would have more money to spend, creating more demand for jobs.

Why not just increase the minimum wage?  That way the government doesn't have to give anyone money and people are still working.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 17, 2020, 07:28:11 pm
Give people money.

Good thing that's not a significant problem. The vast majority of people want to work and will do so whether they are getting money for nothing or not. The difference is an expanded social safety net or universal income supplement would enable them to choose work that they actually want to to do or enjoy doing. And even if it did discourage people from working, it would force businesses to increase wages to attract workers while more people would have more money to spend, creating more demand for jobs.
Giving people money not to work is a great way to destroy lives.  I can’t believe this type of disgusting dignity destroying policy still has supporters.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 17, 2020, 07:42:55 pm
Giving people money not to work is a great way to destroy lives.  I can’t believe this type of disgusting dignity destroying policy still has supporters.

That's why we should tax inheritances 100%
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 08:34:00 pm
Who is going to do the work that people don't like to do?  Like cleaning toilets and picking fruit?

A lot of those jobs are going to go away, while the rest will be filled by most of the same people who do those jobs now, only they'll be better compensated for their labour.

Quote
Why not just increase the minimum wage?  That way the government doesn't have to give anyone money and people are still working.

Because minimum wage doesn't help someone between jobs or generally unable to work. I mean you talk about people not wanting to work if you give them to much money, but that's essentially the system we have right now with EI.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 17, 2020, 08:36:19 pm
Giving people money not to work is a great way to destroy lives.  I can’t believe this type of disgusting dignity destroying policy still has supporters.

LOL imagine thinking getting money to live is "dignity destroying" but having to slave away at one or more shitty precarious jobs just to put food on the table is not. Imagine thinking there's anything more destructive psychologically than the trap of poverty and income immobility. I know you don't imagine these things because you don't have imagination or empathy, but it do be like that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 17, 2020, 08:58:31 pm
A lot of those jobs are going to go away, while the rest will be filled by most of the same people who do those jobs now, only they'll be better compensated for their labour.

What speculative utopian future are you talking about?  UBI?

Quote
Because minimum wage doesn't help someone between jobs or generally unable to work. I mean you talk about people not wanting to work if you give them to much money, but that's essentially the system we have right now with EI.

As I said, if you lose your job or unable to work you should be supported by gov.  People on EI only make a % of their previous income, and also have paid into it from their paychecks because it's an insurance program.  You can't stay on EI indefinitely, the max is 35 weeks and you're legally required to be searching for work during that time, although the gov doesn't bother checking, although they should.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on December 18, 2020, 10:38:20 am
What speculative utopian future are you talking about?  UBI?

Something like that, yes.

Quote

As I said, if you lose your job or unable to work you should be supported by gov.  People on EI only make a % of their previous income, and also have paid into it from their paychecks because it's an insurance program.  You can't stay on EI indefinitely, the max is 35 weeks and you're legally required to be searching for work during that time, although the gov doesn't bother checking, although they should.

If someone meets EI requirements they can sit at home and do noting until it runs out. Tons of seasonal workers do just that.

But that's beside the point. Obviously the government should help people who have lost their job or are physically unable to work. I also believe they should supplement everyone's income so those who can work but are just scraping by can actually better themselves. Imagine a single mother whose every last dime goes to food, bills and rent. That person is never going to get ahead because they won't be able to access different opportunities for education or skills upgrading. Some form of income supplement would help remove that precarity that comes with living on the knife edge of poverty and allow someone to actually make choices to advance. For people who aren't in that situation it would afford them more freedom to do what they want to do, unlocking the potential of thousands of people to start businesses, afford a better education or skills upgrading, or ensure their children are able to do the same. You're not just giving people money: you're giving people the freedom to make actual choices.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2020, 12:50:55 pm
Here's a beauty. Wonder where this will go.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/royal-ottawa-golf-club-million-dollar-cews-windfall-1.5846001
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 18, 2020, 01:23:34 pm
Here's a beauty. Wonder where this will go.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/royal-ottawa-golf-club-million-dollar-cews-windfall-1.5846001

Did their revenues fall by the required amount?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2020, 01:34:42 pm
Did their revenues fall by the required amount?

I thought this was supposed to be a wage subsidy program. If so, how did they make a million dollar profit on it..
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 18, 2020, 04:44:24 pm
I thought this was supposed to be a wage subsidy program. If so, how did they make a million dollar profit on it..

Eligibility was based on revenue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 18, 2020, 05:35:36 pm
Are entitlement and eligibility completely interchangeable terms in CRA nomenclature or completely different like gross and net?

Are you eligible because you're entitled or is it the other way around?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 18, 2020, 05:44:52 pm
I thought this was supposed to be a wage subsidy program. If so, how did they make a million dollar profit on it..

The article said they had a ton of business this year:

Quote
"With COVID-19 keeping people close to home and driving demand for safe, distanced outdoor activities, facility use "boomed" at Royal Ottawa, the club's financial report says, with play on its 18-hole main course up 40 per cent, and play on the par-35, nine-hole course up 90 per cent from 2019. Demand for memberships was strong, with 77 new players joining the club this past season. And interest remains so robust that the club plans to institute a membership cap for the coming season, while raising its initiation fee from $30,000 to $35,000."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2020, 06:14:45 pm
The article said they had a ton of business this year:

Sounds like they really needed the money. But hell, we don't need to know where the money is going. Right?

19 times their pre covid operating gain and all of it from the tax payer.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 18, 2020, 06:27:47 pm
Sounds like they really needed the money. But hell, we don't need to know where the money is going. Right?

19 times their pre covid operating gain and all of it from the tax payer.

I don't recall anyone saying that this is going to be a perfect system. 

At least it's taxable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2020, 06:45:03 pm
I don't recall anyone saying that this is going to be a perfect system. 

At least it's taxable.

It is? Even if it is taxed at 50% they will still be a half million ahead at the taxpayers expense.

I'm really surprised that this seems to be OK to some people. Just crank up the presses
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 18, 2020, 09:29:41 pm
The article said they had a ton of business this year:

If their revenue didn't fall at least 15%, they won't get to keep the money.

The money did not preclude businesses from making a profit. Rather, the money was designed to keep people on the payroll that otherwise would have been laid off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2020, 09:44:24 pm
If their revenue didn't fall at least 15%, they won't get to keep the money.

The money did not preclude businesses from making a profit. Rather, the money was designed to keep people on the payroll that otherwise would have been laid off.

If they are profitable, why do they need the money?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 18, 2020, 09:46:42 pm
If they are profitable, why do they need the money?

To keep employees on payroll. You can lose revenue and shed employees to become profitable. The aim of this program is to avoid that shedding.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2020, 10:10:16 pm
To keep employees on payroll. You can lose revenue and shed employees to become profitable. The aim of this program is to avoid that shedding.

The object was to keep the employees employed, not to let the place make 19 times more than the year before.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 18, 2020, 10:38:45 pm
The object was to keep the employees employed, not to let the place make 19 times more than the year before.

If their revenue fell, they were eligible. If it didn't, they'll have to pay the money back. There isn't a trick to it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 18, 2020, 10:42:15 pm
It is? Even if it is taxed at 50% they will still be a half million ahead at the taxpayers expense.

I'm really surprised that this seems to be OK to some people. Just crank up the presses

I wasn't a big fan of the payroll subsidy.  I thought they would have been better served by giving it directly to people. 

I read that some businesses lowered wages, and pocketed the subsidy somehow.  I don't remember the details.  Plus, it did help some businesses that didn't necessarily need it.  But, as JMT said, they need to show a revenue decrease and it's taxable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 18, 2020, 11:25:26 pm
year-end polling - per CBC/Eric Grenier's aggregator, 'Poll Tracker':

(https://i.imgur.com/rYvZMS9.png)

Liberals end year with national polling lead as opposition parties struggle to gain ground --- If an election were held today, the Liberals almost certainly would win it — and perhaps capture a majority of the seats up for grabs, too.

Quote
With 2020 coming to a close, the Liberal Party is the only federal party in a much better position than it was 12 months ago. According to the CBC's Canada Poll Tracker, an aggregation of all publicly available polling data, the Liberals are up 4.2 percentage points since December 2019. The Conservatives, New Democrats and Bloc Québécois have hardly budged, while the Greens are down nearly three points.

Nationwide, Justin Trudeau's Liberals lead with 35.7 per cent support, compared to 31 per cent for Erin O'Toole's Conservatives. The NDP under Jagmeet Singh trails at 18.3 per cent, followed by the Bloc at 6.7 per cent and the Greens at 5.4 per cent.

A year ago, the Liberals held only a narrow 0.5-point lead over the Conservatives and were solidly in minority territory.

But today's numbers would deliver around 167 seats to the Liberals, with about 111 seats going to the Conservatives, 32 to the Bloc, 27 to the NDP and one to the Greens.

That doesn't differ much from the current standings in the House of Commons — but it does put the Liberals tantalizingly close to the 170-seat mark needed for a majority government.
.
The biggest shifts, however, have been in Western Canada. The Liberals now have 33 per cent support in British Columbia, a gain of seven points over December 2019.

The bump in B.C. is the most consequential in terms of seats. The Poll Tracker estimates the Liberals could win 12 more seats nationwide than they were projected to win in December 2019, and that half of those gains would come from B.C.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 18, 2020, 11:32:08 pm
If their revenue fell, they were eligible. If it didn't, they'll have to pay the money back. There isn't a trick to it.

Will they? The article says they aren't planning on it. I hope the government will be aggressive about getting money back from these outfits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 08:06:22 am
Will they? The article says they aren't planning on it. I hope the government will be aggressive about getting money back from these outfits.

If they aren't eligible, they'll have to. Revenue Canada may go soft on CERB, but business doesn't get many breaks in the end.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 09:11:11 am
If they aren't eligible, they'll have to. Revenue Canada may go soft on CERB, but business doesn't get many breaks in the end.

Well I surely hope the information will be made public or do you still think we don’t need to know? We wouldn’t know about this if the CBC hadn’t obtained it by going through the companies records. Government transparency had nothing to do with it. Or do you still think this is gotcha journalism? If it is, I say bring it on.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 09:19:54 am
Well I surely hope the information will be made public or do you still think we don’t need to know? We wouldn’t know about this if the CBC hadn’t obtained it by going through the companies records. Government transparency had nothing to do with it. Or do you still think this is gotcha journalism? If it is, I say bring it on.

If they broke the law, and if they aren't willing to pay, charges will have to be laid. You'll definitely find out then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 09:34:10 am
If they broke the law, and if they aren't willing to pay, charges will have to be laid. You'll definitely find out then.

Will we? Who will tell us? And if they didn’t break the law, how I’ll we know how many companies ended up padding their bottom line with CEWS funds?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 09:44:40 am
Will we? Who will tell us? And if they didn’t break the law, how I’ll we know how many companies ended up padding their bottom line with CEWS funds?

If they were eligible, they didn't break the law. There is no way to claw back based on profit, nor was that the intent.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 19, 2020, 10:40:56 am
If they were eligible, they didn't break the law. There is no way to claw back based on profit, nor was that the intent.
You’d think Junior’s administration could’ve thought of that before crafting policy.  Something about businesses using tax money for big profits.  Just another Liberal failure during this pandemic.  This relief is suppose to be about keeping people afloat, not making record profits.  At the very least there should have been provisions involving paying back all or part of the relief under certain profit circumstances.  But that would’ve required a smarter PM and a smarter administration. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 11:47:14 am
If they were eligible, they didn't break the law. There is no way to claw back based on profit, nor was that the intent.

So this private golf course just got an $850,000 gift from the tax payer. Hope they enjoy the big party.


Brilliant use of taxpayer funds and a great reason to go hundreds of billions into debt.

But hey, the suckers picking up the tab don't need to know any of that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 11:53:24 am
So this private golf course just got an $850,000 gift from the tax payer. Hope they enjoy the big party.

Again, it's important to know if they had a revenue loss. If they did, they qualify. There needed to be a simple criteria to make the program accessible.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 12:01:56 pm
Again, it's important to know if they had a revenue loss. If they did, they qualify. There needed to be a simple criteria to make the program accessible.

You will apologize for anything these guys do. Do you honestly think that collecting over a million dollars in CEWS to increase net revenues by 19 times over pre Covid revenues is a good use of tax money. You are big on getting money out to the little guy but you also don't have a problem with borrowed public money lining the pockets of fat cats either.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 12:03:22 pm
You will apologize for anything these guys do. Do you honestly think that collecting over a million dollars in CEWS to increase net revenues by 19 times over pre Covid revenues is a good use of tax money. You are big on getting money out to the little guy but you also don't have a problem with borrowed public money lining the pockets of fat cats either.

I have no problem with borrowed money, no.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 12:06:52 pm
I have no problem with borrowed money, no.

What's that supposed to mean? Let's borrow a bunch more then and buy everyone a Ferrari it's only borrowed money.

This is a perfect example of why we need media to dig into these things because it is the only way we will find out about them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 12:08:41 pm
The article actually explains quite accurately how the subsidy was designed. You want to be outraged. That's your choice. There's nothing outrageous about it, as described the article.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 19, 2020, 12:11:06 pm
Again, it's important to know if they had a revenue loss. If they did, they qualify. There needed to be a simple criteria to make the program accessible.
A what, 2 month revenue loss?  Maybe?  How many people golf in Ottawa in March and April?  So May and June they operated under a temporary loss.  You think that justifies this?  Stop making excuses for terrible policy just because it’s the Trudeau liberals.  It’s absolute **** policy and you know it.  You just can’t admit it for some reason.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 12:12:07 pm
The article actually explains quite accurately how the subsidy was designed. You want to be outraged. That's your choice. There's nothing outrageous about it, as described the article.

So what, it also quite accurately explains how it was poorly thought out. It also took the media to expose it. Anything like this will be embarrassing to the government so you are not likely to hear it first from them. That's why they are delaying releasing some of this stuff for five years. Conveniently after the next election whenever it may come.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 19, 2020, 12:13:50 pm
The article actually explains quite accurately how the subsidy was designed. You want to be outraged. That's your choice. There's nothing outrageous about it, as described the article.
Yes, the subsidy was designed extremely poorly.  Anyone can see that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 19, 2020, 12:15:17 pm
What's that supposed to mean? Let's borrow a bunch more then and buy everyone a Ferrari it's only borrowed money.

This is a perfect example of why we need media to dig into these things because it is the only way we will find out about them.
Apparently taking up a larger and larger portion of the budget just paying interest on debt is a popular idea with him.  Anyone else knows that’s wasted money that could be going to important things.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 12:25:45 pm
Apparently taking up a larger and larger portion of the budget just paying interest on debt is a popular idea with him.

When do you expect this to start happening?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 19, 2020, 12:25:59 pm
Yes, the subsidy was designed extremely poorly.  Anyone can see that.
Most people can also see it was designed on the fly like most of the response to this pandemic around the planet. Whatever mistakes were made in haste they don't even come close to a lack of preparedness that took all the time in the world to accomplish.  It's already clear to me that preparing for the next crisis will be sidelined by all the recrimination surrounding this one.

Yes, we're that retarded.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2020, 12:31:22 pm
The programs were designed to catch as many workers as possible. Yes, there were overpayments. Yes, there were mistakes. I accept those mistakes and embrace them. Canadians came through this relatively unscathed financially in context.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 12:45:16 pm
When do you expect this to start happening?

As soon as interest rates start to rise. Over 20% of our debt is turned over every year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 19, 2020, 02:29:29 pm
year-end polling - per CBC/Eric Grenier's aggregator, 'Poll Tracker':

(https://i.imgur.com/rYvZMS9.png)

Liberals end year with national polling lead as opposition parties struggle to gain ground --- If an election were held today, the Liberals almost certainly would win it — and perhaps capture a majority of the seats up for grabs, too.

(https://i.imgur.com/MPJibVj.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 19, 2020, 04:35:16 pm
To keep employees on payroll. You can lose revenue and shed employees to become profitable. The aim of this program is to avoid that shedding.

With these pandemic programs, on the one hand we need to keep government accountable  I also agree with wilbur that one the problems is that if we just worry about spending afterwards, it can be too late in some cases, the money is already given away.

However, I also agree with you in that the public shouldn't become outraged at this point in time about specific cases, we need to wait for tax time to calculate incomes and revenue and enforce overpayments by individuals & companies.  After everything is settled we'll know better of who got what and can do a better job of accountability.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2020, 06:15:33 pm

However, I also agree with you in that the public shouldn't become outraged at this point in time about specific cases, we need to wait for tax time to calculate incomes and revenue and enforce overpayments by individuals & companies.  After everything is settled we'll know better of who got what and can do a better job of accountability.

We will only know if the government makes the information public. The idea of CEWS wasn't to make companies profitable, it was to allow them to keep their employees without going broke.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 19, 2020, 06:36:14 pm
We will only know if the government makes the information public. The idea of CEWS wasn't to make companies profitable, it was to allow them to keep their employees without going broke.

After taxes are filed with CRA next spring, a bunch of money could be taken back from companies who didn't need it.  I have no idea what the formula is for these programs.  Sooner or later a lot of this stuff is going to come out.

I get the need to rush the programs, so it's understandable that for at least the first 2-3 people will get things they don't deserve no matter what was done.  But a few months is enough time to realize major errors and figure something out a bit more nuanced.  It's not enough time to develop and implement a complex program but it's enough to develop something that's better than something rushed out ASAP.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 21, 2020, 09:05:05 am
After taxes are filed with CRA next spring, a bunch of money could be taken back from companies who didn't need it.  I have no idea what the formula is for these programs.  Sooner or later a lot of this stuff is going to come out.

I get the need to rush the programs, so it's understandable that for at least the first 2-3 people will get things they don't deserve no matter what was done.  But a few months is enough time to realize major errors and figure something out a bit more nuanced.  It's not enough time to develop and implement a complex program but it's enough to develop something that's better than something rushed out ASAP.

But if the program didn’t prohibit companies from using these funds to pad their bottom lines, the CRA will do nothing, so how would we know this is even happening? This information didn’t come from government sources, maybe it was leaked by a member who didn’t like what was happening. No government will be keen on releasing data that makes it look bad if it doesn’t have to. It will put it off for as long as it can, preferably after the next election if at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 22, 2020, 07:14:06 pm
Like I said, they were busy and there was legal muck to go through:

https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/hacc/cews/srch/pub/dsplyBscSrch?request_locale=en

Currently, you can only see if a company got money, but not how much, because that's not necessarily legal atm.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-searchable-database-subsidy-1.5852424
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 12:49:33 pm
More fallout from Trudeau's ill-conceived bailout plan.

Chinese state-owned companies among recipients of Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy

Air China, a subsidiary of the state-owned China National Aviation Holdings, received wage subsidies. Air China experienced a substantial revenue drop in the first half of 2020, making them eligible for the CEWS. Air China also collaborates with Huawei. Another Chinese state-owned airline, China Southern Airlines, received subsidies under the program.

Another major company which received subsidies under the program is a Toronto branch of the Bank of China. The Bank of China has a long history of scandal, including being accused of funneling cash from countries such as Iran and Syria to terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, both of which are recognized as terrorist organizations by the Canadian government.

https://thepostmillennial.com/state-owned-chinese-companies-among-recipients-of-canada-emergency-wage-subsidy

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 23, 2020, 03:37:22 pm
More fallout from Trudeau's ill-conceived bailout plan.

Chinese state-owned companies among recipients of Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy

Air China, a subsidiary of the state-owned China National Aviation Holdings, received wage subsidies. Air China experienced a substantial revenue drop in the first half of 2020, making them eligible for the CEWS. Air China also collaborates with Huawei. Another Chinese state-owned airline, China Southern Airlines, received subsidies under the program.

Another major company which received subsidies under the program is a Toronto branch of the Bank of China. The Bank of China has a long history of scandal, including being accused of funneling cash from countries such as Iran and Syria to terrorist organizations such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, both of which are recognized as terrorist organizations by the Canadian government.

https://thepostmillennial.com/state-owned-chinese-companies-among-recipients-of-canada-emergency-wage-subsidy

Do you think American, German, South African-owned companies working in Canada should receive it? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 03:47:33 pm
Do you think American, German, South African-owned companies working in Canada should receive it?
Which companies are owned by those governments that are working in Canada?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 23, 2020, 03:50:17 pm
Which companies are owned by those governments that are working in Canada?

So you have issues with state-ownership, not with a foreign company receiving the subsidy? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 03:55:42 pm
So you have issues with state-ownership, not with a foreign company receiving the subsidy?
Yes.  State owned vs private company are very different.  I don’t think we should be giving Canadian tax dollars to the Chinese government.  Especially after what they’ve caused. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 23, 2020, 04:02:07 pm
Yes.  State owned vs private company are very different.  I don’t think we should be giving Canadian tax dollars to the Chinese government.  Especially after what they’ve caused.

You think they made the virus in a lab?  And then unleashed it on their people?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 23, 2020, 04:22:19 pm
You think they made the virus in a lab?  And then unleashed it on their people?

It seems donny trump thinks something such so shady will probably buy in as well. :)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 23, 2020, 04:55:51 pm
You think they made the virus in a lab?  And then unleashed it on their people?

I have a problem with giving Chinese companies anything, regardless of Covid. I'm damn sure no Canadian company operating in China would get a plugged nickel from the Chinese government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 23, 2020, 06:32:28 pm
I have a problem with giving Chinese companies anything, regardless of Covid. I'm damn sure no Canadian company operating in China would get a plugged nickel from the Chinese government.

Should we allow them to operate at all in Canada?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 23, 2020, 06:40:11 pm
Should we allow them to operate at all in Canada?



Well, I was happy to see the sale of TMAC to Shandong Gold just got shot down by the feds.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 06:41:17 pm
You think they made the virus in a lab?  And then unleashed it on their people?
I have no idea.  But they certainly waited quite a while before saying anything.  A British study suggests that if they acted sooner and without secrecy much of the world would be in a very different place.  But now you want to reward them with Canadian tax money.  Absurd.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 06:43:48 pm
Should we allow them to operate at all in Canada?
That isn’t the issue at hand.  Stop shifting the subject.  It’s about Canadian tax money going to the Chinese government.  It’s not enough that they’ve cost us trillions economically as well as tens of thousands of lives.  But hey!  Let’s give’em money too!  JFC what’s wrong with you people?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 23, 2020, 06:45:31 pm
Yes.  State owned vs private company are very different.  I don’t think we should be giving Canadian tax dollars to the Chinese government.  Especially after what they’ve caused.

That's a tough one.  One of the main goals of the wage subsidy was to keep Canadians employed instead of Canadians going unemployed and then getting the CERB for doing nothing.  China could have laid them off and then we'd be paying the workers the CERB.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 23, 2020, 07:14:02 pm
That's a tough one.  One of the main goals of the wage subsidy was to keep Canadians employed instead of Canadians going unemployed and then getting the CERB for doing nothing.  China could have laid them off and then we'd be paying the workers the CERB.
True.  But I’d rather give Canadians the money directly.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 23, 2020, 07:31:08 pm
That isn’t the issue at hand.  Stop shifting the subject.  It’s about Canadian tax money going to the Chinese government.  It’s not enough that they’ve cost us trillions economically as well as tens of thousands of lives.  But hey!  Let’s give’em money too!  JFC what’s wrong with you people?
Why just this issue now though? We should have stopped trading with China decades ago, of course back then you would have been calling anyone who suggested doing that a commie.

You're virtually always full of **** no matter what the issue du jour.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 23, 2020, 07:48:52 pm
That isn’t the issue at hand.  Stop shifting the subject. 

It's a part of the subject, as the gov't probably can't pick and choose who to give the subsidy to based on where the company is from...   can they?  Probably not a realistic way to do so, I wouldn't think.

Quote
It’s about Canadian tax money going to the Chinese government.

Is it going to the Chinese gov't?  I don't think that's been established.  It's going to subsidize Canadian wages...  that much is true.

Quote
JFC what’s wrong with you people?

I never said that they should get it.  You're blowing a gasket over something I didn't say.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 23, 2020, 10:56:34 pm
True.  But I’d rather give Canadians the money directly.

So you’re good with CERB now?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 24, 2020, 09:01:05 am
Why just this issue now though? We should have stopped trading with China decades ago, of course back then you would have been calling anyone who suggested doing that a commie.

You're virtually always full of **** no matter what the issue du jour.
I'm not sure what you mean.  How am I full of ****?  I'm completely serious.  Stopping trade with China decades are is lunacy.  You're a lunatic.  But surely a pandemic caused by them, inflicting tens of thousands of Canadians dead and trillions in economic damage is a good reason to distribute stimulus more selectively, isn't it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 24, 2020, 09:02:41 am
It's a part of the subject, as the gov't probably can't pick and choose who to give the subsidy to based on where the company is from...   can they?  Probably not a realistic way to do so, I wouldn't think.

Is it going to the Chinese gov't?  I don't think that's been established.  It's going to subsidize Canadian wages...  that much is true.

I never said that they should get it.  You're blowing a gasket over something I didn't say.
Sure they can.  They could change the law.  Barring an state owned company, China or otherwise from receiving direct tax money.  There are a number of ways of doing it.  Why are you carrying water for China?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 24, 2020, 09:02:57 am
So you’re good with CERB now?
When was I not?  You gonna stop carrying water for China now?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 24, 2020, 11:02:13 am
More fallout from Trudeau's ill-conceived bailout plan.

Chinese state-owned companies among recipients of Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy

Air China, a subsidiary of the state-owned China National Aviation Holdings, received wage subsidies. Air China experienced a substantial revenue drop in the first half of 2020, making them eligible for the CEWS.

member Shady, do you have any information to suggest the CEWS monies were not used as intended... as a percentage subsidy of the related Canadian employees' pay? Or are you just a mad barkerHound?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 24, 2020, 11:33:09 am
I'm not sure what you mean.  How am I full of ****? 
Inconsistency...your most consistent aspect.

Quote
I'm completely serious.  Stopping trade with China decades are is lunacy.
Trillions have been spent fighting communist tyranny. Trading with it only makes it stronger. Which side are you on anyway?

Quote
You're a lunatic.  But surely a pandemic caused by them, inflicting tens of thousands of Canadians dead and trillions in economic damage is a good reason to distribute stimulus more selectively, isn't it?
Trade more selectively you mean. You can't get away with these stupid little twists you use to turn an issue into something it isn't. You seem to think no one is aware of what you're doing. Do you actually imagine you're being clever or something?

Further to that stop blurring the line between China's people 'them' as you spin it and China's government. We have every reason to focus on what Jinping's crime has caused and I think halting trade with China will compel China's people to focus on him as well. The governed are not the problem here, government is. China's people are the solution and trade is preventing them from doing what needs to be done.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 24, 2020, 12:26:06 pm
Inconsistency...your most consistent aspect.
Trillions have been spent fighting communist tyranny. Trading with it only makes it stronger. Which side are you on anyway?
Complete nonsense.  When the circumstances change, then my opinion may change as well.  That's called being an adult as oppose to a zealot.  So I assume you support a trade embargo on other countries as well?  How about Cuba? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 24, 2020, 01:28:08 pm
Complete nonsense.  When the circumstances change, then my opinion may change as well.
Which is as often as diapers in your case. The reasons for embargoes against China's dictatorship haven't changed since Tienanmen in fact they've only increased in both number and urgency.   

Quote
So I assume you support a trade embargo on other countries as well?  How about Cuba?
You assume...****-off Shady, you know damn well my opinion is always consistent when it comes to wheeling and dealing with dictatorships.

Is it safe to assume you have no idea what any of this means?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 24, 2020, 02:05:20 pm
Which is as often as diapers in your case. The reasons for embargoes against China's dictatorship haven't changed since Tienanmen in fact they've only increased in both number and urgency.   
You assume...****-off Shady, you know damn well my opinion is always consistent when it comes to wheeling and dealing with dictatorships.

Is it safe to assume you have no idea what any of this means?
No, actually I have no idea.  Are you calling for an embargo against Cuba?  Are you a proponent of that?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 24, 2020, 03:06:05 pm
No, actually I have no idea.  Are you calling for an embargo against Cuba?  Are you a proponent of that?
Cuba is a dictatorship Shady so why would you even have to ask that? What channel are you trying to tune into now?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 24, 2020, 03:14:01 pm
Cuba is a dictatorship Shady so why would you even have to ask that? What channel are you trying to tune into now?
Just wondering.  I respect your consistency.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 24, 2020, 05:07:11 pm
I respect your consistency.
It's about freakin' time after 10 years at least of having it shoved in your face. So now that I finally have your respect what do you make of a lefty who would embargo a communist dictatorship?

Take your time and if it takes another 10 years...then it is what it is.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 25, 2020, 01:32:29 pm
It's about freakin' time after 10 years at least of having it shoved in your face. So now that I finally have your respect what do you make of a lefty who would embargo a communist dictatorship?

Take your time and if it takes another 10 years...then it is what it is.

If we were to embargo trade with countries with human rights problems we'd be embargo'ing the large majority of the world, including the US and ourselves.

On the other hand, sanctions are a legitimate tool in managing international relations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 25, 2020, 02:04:43 pm
If we were to embargo trade with countries with human rights problems we'd be embargo'ing the large majority of the world, including the US and ourselves.

On the other hand, sanctions are a legitimate tool in managing international relations.

Agreed. What has the embargo done for the Cuban people? What has it changed for the positive? Nothing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 25, 2020, 05:57:13 pm
Agreed. What has the embargo done for the Cuban people? What has it changed for the positive? Nothing.

I get the embargo in the 60's and maybe even throughout the Cold War.  I also get Cuba wanting nukes to defend themselves after the Bay of Pigs invasion.  I think relations should be normalized.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 25, 2020, 07:40:50 pm
It's about freakin' time after 10 years at least of having it shoved in your face. So now that I finally have your respect what do you make of a lefty who would embargo a communist dictatorship?

Take your time and if it takes another 10 years...then it is what it is.
I said I admired it.  I didn’t say I agreed with it.   Using a blanket standard for every country in the world is counter productive.  China and Cuba are not the same.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 26, 2020, 12:09:14 am
I said I admired it.  I didn’t say I agreed with it.   Using a blanket standard for every country in the world is counter productive.
Groovy. That's got absolutely nothing to do with using anything on dictatorships.   

Quote
China and Cuba are not the same.
That's right, they're different countries on opposite sides of the planet.

If you want to suggest that differences amongst dictatorships call for using different standards to bring them to heel then say so.  I'm open to the idea that governments can earn merit points and a reduction in sanctions due to better behaviour.  First though we'd need an international code of standardized rules for governing human beings.  Wouldn't you agree? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 27, 2020, 09:14:59 am
Basic human rights should be universal but dictating how other people must govern themselves is something else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 27, 2020, 11:06:07 am
Basic human rights should be universal but dictating how other people must govern themselves is something else.
It's more a matter of dictating how people are not allowed to govern themselves, which is in the absence of basic universal human rights.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 27, 2020, 12:09:51 pm
It's more a matter of dictating how people are not allowed to govern themselves, which is in the absence of basic universal human rights.

Pretty much. Regardless of what people may think of the Cuban regime, the revolution that put it in place overthrew a brutal and corrupt dictatorship.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 29, 2020, 08:48:03 am
Groovy. That's got absolutely nothing to do with using anything on dictatorships.   
That's right, they're different countries on opposite sides of the planet.

If you want to suggest that differences amongst dictatorships call for using different standards to bring them to heel then say so.  I'm open to the idea that governments can earn merit points and a reduction in sanctions due to better behaviour.  First though we'd need an international code of standardized rules for governing human beings.  Wouldn't you agree?
Well, Cuba's been under a large trade embargo for 50+ years.  And all it's done is caused mass poverty.  Your policy has directly lead to people dying.  As long as you're ok with the collateral damage I guess. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 29, 2020, 11:44:04 am
Well, Cuba's been under a large trade embargo for 50+ years.  And all it's done is caused mass poverty.  Your policy has directly lead to people dying.  As long as you're ok with the collateral damage I guess.
Cuba's dictators have also been subsidized by other dictators, to the tune of billions of dollars in the case of China. That's both prolonged Cuba's dictatorship while fuelling China's growth into a formidable super-power.  Anyone else recall when billions of dollars and countless lives were expended trying to keep oil out of the hands of communist dictatorships?  Last time I looked Ottawa spent billions on a pipeline in our desperation to get our oil into China's hands too.

Quote
China has bailed-out Cuba with loans of billions of dollars, and as a result has access to much of their oil in the Gulf of Mexico.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Cuba_relations

When we investigate terrorists we deliberately look for often find and go after the networks of support that facilitate and empower them.  It works the very same way with dictatorships but we give the support they receive a pass, why?  We've come to depend on them too.  Decades of dependency have made us as complicit and even more so because we know better.

I'm okay with the economic damage being consistent with our stated principles would cause why aren't you?  My grandparents were okay giving up 25% of their GDP to fight tyranny, where were your's in the scheme of things?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest78 on December 29, 2020, 12:21:26 pm
Cuba's dictators have also been subsidized by other dictators, to the tune of billions of dollars in the case of China. That's both prolonged Cuba's dictatorship while fuelling China's growth into a formidable super-power.  Anyone else recall when billions of dollars and countless lives were expended trying to keep oil out of the hands of communist dictatorships?  Last time I looked Ottawa spent billions on a pipeline in our desperation to get our oil into China's hands too.

When we investigate terrorists we deliberately look for often find and go after the networks of support that facilitate and empower them.  It works the very same way with dictatorships but we give the support they receive a pass, why?  We've come to depend on them too.  Decades of dependency have made us as complicit and even more so because we know better.

I'm okay with the economic damage being consistent with our stated principles would cause why aren't you?  My grandparents were okay giving up 25% of their GDP to fight tyranny, where were your's in the scheme of things?
I don't think anyone gave up 25% of their GDP.  Perhaps during the great depression.  So you were cool with the sanctions on Iraq then too?

"We are now in there responsible for killing people, destroying their families, their children, allowing their older parents to die for lack of basic medicines,"
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1999/09/former-un-official-says-sanctions-against-iraq-amount-genocide
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 29, 2020, 01:04:53 pm
The Battista regime which was overthrown by the Cuban revolution was propped up by the US and the Bay of Pigs was the US response to overthrow the revolution. Cuba has no reason to love America regardless who is in power.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 29, 2020, 04:53:15 pm
I don't think anyone gave up 25% of their GDP.  Perhaps during the great depression.  So you were cool with the sanctions on Iraq then too?

Actually it was closer to 40%

(https://i.imgur.com/fPvZ1pu.jpg)

https://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/2017/06/150-years-of-canadian-national-defence-spending.html

Yes I was cool with sanctions against Iraq but I think we should also have applied them to anyone who helped Iraq's dictatorship. You know, actually try to raise a few eyebrows for a change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 04, 2021, 06:33:30 pm
The Minister of Defence should probably resign from cabinet or get shuffled and removed from the defence portfolio to another cabinet position.  The department is having a lot of trouble with these sexual misconduct allegations and he can't be trusted by the women in the Forces to be taken seriously if the minister of the dept. ignores evidence of misconduct allegations and the last 2 Chiefs of Defence Staff have left amid sexual misconduct allegations.

The Forces have been trying very hard to appear they care about sexual harassment issues within their ranks, to their credit, but then this stuff happens and is covered up and handled poorly by those at the top.  This is unacceptable, especially in 2021.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 04, 2021, 08:36:22 pm
The Minister of Defence should probably resign from cabinet or get shuffled and removed from the defence portfolio to another cabinet position.  The department is having a lot of trouble with these sexual misconduct allegations and he can't be trusted by the women in the Forces to be taken seriously if the minister of the dept. ignores evidence of misconduct allegations and the last 2 Chiefs of Defence Staff have left amid sexual misconduct allegations.

The Forces have been trying very hard to appear they care about sexual harassment issues within their ranks, to their credit, but then this stuff happens and is covered up and handled poorly by those at the top.  This is unacceptable, especially in 2021.


If nothing else, the optics are terrible.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 05, 2021, 01:14:45 am
... if the minister of the dept. ignores evidence of misconduct allegations

in regards CDS Vance: the former ombudsman (Walbourne) acknowledged the complainant advised she would not file a formal complaint, that she demanded an assurance of confidentiality of herself and the details related to the complaint.

the Privy Council Office (PCO) is responsible for the conduct of governor-in-council appointments such as the defence chief; more pointedly, Defence Minister Sajjan reported the Walbourne 'allegation against Vance' to the PCO... and the very day after the Sajjan/Walbourne meeting, the PCO in contacting ombudsman Walbourne was stymied by Walbourne's refusal to separately turn over potentially incriminating emails and the name of the female military member who had complained informally to him about Vance.

member Gorgeous, without any provided basis of the allegation, just what would you have had the PCO do; that in the absence of that basis information, how would you have expected the PCO to pursue the ombudsman's raised concern, both in writing and in the meeting with Minister Sajjan?

most pointedly, in recent days there's been a lot written about the Conservative support/leanings of the former ombudsman; notwithstanding it was Conservative PM Harper who appointed both the former ombudsman Walbourne... and CDS Vance. And member wilber talks of "optics"!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 22, 2021, 12:56:50 pm
the Privy Council Office (PCO) is responsible for the conduct of governor-in-council appointments such as the defence chief; more pointedly, Defence Minister Sajjan reported the Walbourne 'allegation against Vance' to the PCO... and the very day after the Sajjan/Walbourne meeting, the PCO in contacting ombudsman Walbourne was stymied by Walbourne's refusal to separately turn over potentially incriminating emails and the name of the female military member who had complained informally to him about Vance.

now today - per former Chief Of Staff to Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Ray Novak:
Conservatives heard 'rumours' of Vance's alleged inappropriate relationships in 2015 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservatives-heard-rumours-of-vance-s-alleged-inappropriate-relationships-in-2015-1.5958954)

CPC drumbeat has been to state the Privy Council Office (PCO) was not the right area to investigate... that Minister Sajjan should have investigated more directly himself; and yet back in 2015 (under Harper) when allegations first surfaced against Vance, the Conservatives said the very opposite, stating that the PCO was the right area to do an investigation and politicians and staff should never engage in that!

so..... The Harper PMO was involved, Conservative Prime Minister Harper was briefed, the Veterans Affairs minister Erin O'Toole was briefed, the Defense Minister Jason Kenney was briefed... and still Harper/the CPC government appointed Vance to Chief of Defense Staff position.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 22, 2021, 04:17:16 pm
The uppers in government don't care and have never cared about these things, and some have committed these acts themselves (Trudeau groping).  People, mainly men, really need to learn to behave and employers need to start taking these things seriously, which really only seems to have started happening since #MeToo.

#MeToo is one of the best social movements to happen for women in a long time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2021, 11:00:42 am
The Minister of Defence should probably resign from cabinet or get shuffled and removed from the defence portfolio to another cabinet position.  The department is having a lot of trouble with these sexual misconduct allegations and he can't be trusted by the women in the Forces to be taken seriously if the minister of the dept. ignores evidence of misconduct allegations and the last 2 Chiefs of Defence Staff have left amid sexual misconduct allegations.
If nothing else, the optics are terrible.

member wilber... now that the former CoS to Harper has provided contextual testimony, you haven't managed to speak of, as you say, 'the terrible optics' profiled in my following post - go figure, hey!

now today - per former Chief Of Staff to Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Ray Novak:
Conservatives heard 'rumours' of Vance's alleged inappropriate relationships in 2015 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservatives-heard-rumours-of-vance-s-alleged-inappropriate-relationships-in-2015-1.5958954)

CPC drumbeat has been to state the Privy Council Office (PCO) was not the right area to investigate... that Minister Sajjan should have investigated more directly himself; and yet back in 2015 (under Harper) when allegations first surfaced against Vance, the Conservatives said the very opposite, stating that the PCO was the right area to do an investigation and politicians and staff should never engage in that!

so..... The Harper PMO was involved, Conservative Prime Minister Harper was briefed, the Veterans Affairs minister Erin O'Toole was briefed, the Defense Minister Jason Kenney was briefed... and still Harper/the CPC government appointed Vance to Chief of Defense Staff position.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 23, 2021, 12:34:20 pm
member wilber... now that the former CoS to Harper has provided contextual testimony, you haven't managed to speak of, as you say, 'the terrible optics' profiled in my following post - go figure, hey!

The CPC gov investigated the rumours.  There were no complaints filed against him and Vance denied the claims, so they moved forward.  One could argue they could have done more, maybe questioned his wife from 2001 who was allegedly involved?

The Liberals were given evidence of his misconduct.  Actual evidence that could be investigated.  The Minister of Defence said he didn't want to see it.

Seems like both the CPC gov and Liberal gov made errors.  The waldo would like to pin all the blame on the CPC and ignore what the Liberals ignored because the waldo loves the Liberal Party of Canada more than accountability for sexual harassment.  Sajjan and Vance were friends.  The ol' boys club wins again.

Now after being called out, let's all watch and see if the Liberal propaganda mouthpiece the waldo continues to defend the Liberals or stand up for sexual harassment accountability in all of its partisan forms.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2021, 12:42:34 pm
The Liberals were given evidence of his misconduct.  Actual evidence that could be investigated.  The Minister of Defence said he didn't want to see it.

NO - you are incorrect! No evidence was provided by the (former) Ombudsman... because he had none to provide... the unidentified complainant did not want her name or circumstances of the allegation made public - she did not want to register a formal complaint. However, Liberal Minister of Defence Sajjan (the very next day after being approached by the (former) Ombudsman), referred the "matter" to the Privy Council Office (PCO) to determine next steps. Again, the PCO is the appropriate area to determine whether an investigation can proceed/is warranted.

member Gorgeous, quit making shyte up!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2021, 12:46:04 pm
oh my! In the HOC today: CPC/O'Foole demand national plan to end COVID-19 restrictions... demanding a national plan to end provincially applied/controlled lockdowns!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 23, 2021, 01:02:59 pm
The waldo would like to pin all the blame on the CPC and ignore what the Liberals ignored because the waldo loves the Liberal Party of Canada more than accountability for sexual harassment.
The waldo's partisanship shouldn't really mean much in the more relevant scheme of things but unfortunately it does because doing something that might make the Government of Canada more accountable might also make political parties more accountable. There are old boy clubs and then there are really olde boy clubs. On this score Liberals are just like Conservative and visa versa. Both are thoroughly right-wing as evidenced by their pre-occupation with the distribution of power.

Any pedestrian government can redistribute it's nations wealth but it takes a really progressive one to redistribute its power.  Canada's power is for all intents and purposes far more exclusive than inclusive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2021, 01:31:51 pm
... doing something that might make the Government of Canada more accountable might also make political parties more accountable.

surely you're not expecting... not wanting... politicians to directly investigate alleged allegations pertaining to members of the military. In this particular iteration of l'affaire Vance, how exactly are you calling for government accountability? The Privy Council Office has the responsibility, the role, the direct accountability - this was the area Liberal Minister Sajjan referred the matter to (one day after the (former) Ombudsman brought an allegation to him)... again, an allegation that has no supplied evidence behind it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 23, 2021, 02:11:37 pm
how exactly are you calling for government accountability? The Privy Council Office has the responsibility, the role, the direct accountability...
Perhaps for discussing a human resource issue of one of it's employees in privacy, like drinking on the job or something but that's not what I'm talking about. As for the ongoing failure of governments/political parties to investigate and do anything about sexual allegations in various departments they bear responsibility for, this has been going on for decades btw, I would simply outlaw all in-camera lobbying and official discussions touching on anything that falls within the public's domain. This simple solution would do much to effectively redistribute power within the public's domain amongst every Canadian within that domain.  If there's an obvious need to maintain national security issues secret then fine I get that, the Freedom of Information and Protection of Secrecy Act can be amended so that it requires the government to apply to keep something secret instead of the ass-backwards way of doing it...ass-backwards.

Are you saying the Privy Council Office does not belong to Canadians or that it falls outside our purview?  I know you do but you have to pretend otherwise and you're no better than Shady when it comes to dealing with this sort of interface between rubber and asphalt.  He thinks I'm attacking free speech...what's your excuse, the olde need for extremely powerful people to have a safe space for frank talk?

**** frank.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 23, 2021, 02:12:38 pm
oh my! In the HOC today: CPC/O'Foole demand national plan to end COVID-19 restrictions... demanding a national plan to end provincially applied/controlled lockdowns!  ;D

I actually didn’t think O’Toole would be as incompetent as he has turned out to be....   What a bloody buffoon.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 23, 2021, 03:44:19 pm
NO - you are incorrect! No evidence was provided by the (former) Ombudsman... because he had none to provide... the unidentified complainant did not want her name or circumstances of the allegation made public - she did not want to register a formal complaint. However, Liberal Minister of Defence Sajjan (the very next day after being approached by the (former) Ombudsman), referred the "matter" to the Privy Council Office (PCO) to determine next steps. Again, the PCO is the appropriate area to determine whether an investigation can proceed/is warranted.

member Gorgeous, quit making shyte up!

Why didn't he look at the allegation himself also?  He's the Minister of Defence.  That's something you might want to look into when the head member of the military is being accused of harassment, sexual misconduct, conflict of interest etc.

He didn't want to because he didn't care.  "Meh let someone else deal with this rubbish".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 23, 2021, 03:49:49 pm
The waldo's partisanship shouldn't really mean much in the more relevant scheme of things but unfortunately it does because doing something that might make the Government of Canada more accountable might also make political parties more accountable. There are old boy clubs and then there are really olde boy clubs. On this score Liberals are just like Conservative and visa versa. Both are thoroughly right-wing as evidenced by their pre-occupation with the distribution of power.

Any pedestrian government can redistribute it's nations wealth but it takes a really progressive one to redistribute its power.  Canada's power is for all intents and purposes far more exclusive than inclusive.

Sides of the spectrum have nothing to do with distribution of power.  There are rightwing libertarians and leftwing anarchists.  This is about abuse of power yes I agree, and not caring enough about sexual misconduct/harrassment/conflict of interest allegations.   This is about men behaving badly.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 23, 2021, 03:54:25 pm
oh my! In the HOC today: CPC/O'Foole demand national plan to end COVID-19 restrictions... demanding a national plan to end provincially applied/controlled lockdowns!  ;D

He asked for a timeline for when we can expect the lockdowns to end.  I don't believe he said he wanted them all to end immediately.

“Mr. [Justin] Trudeau refuses to give Canadians clarity on whether and when regular and social life will be able to resume and under what circumstances and conditions,” said the Conservative leader.
...
“We are talking about a safe, data-driven, and effective plan to reopening,” said O’Toole. “That will include the border. That will include airports, ports, all areas of federal jurisdiction where there should be a national, rapid-screening and testing process.”
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 23, 2021, 06:12:15 pm
Sides of the spectrum have nothing to do with distribution of power.       
It did according to the original usage of the terms right and left in terms of governance during the French Revolution where the right was composed of nobles and other people of power (the innies) sitting to the right of the king and the left referred to everyone else who wasn't powerful (the outies).
 
Quote
There are rightwing libertarians and leftwing anarchists.
How they govern is what matters and if they hang onto or dole out their power stingily then it's pretty clear that the distribution of power is the only real game in town. 

Quote
This is about abuse of power yes I agree, and not caring enough about sexual misconduct/harrassment/conflict of interest allegations. This is about men behaving badly.

It's clearly also about governments behaving badly.  Yes there is a political spectrum that is composed of an endless array of flavours and colours but there is also a power spectrum that is simply black and white and what few shades of grey exist in between them are thoroughly politicized .
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 23, 2021, 06:29:13 pm
He asked for a timeline for when we can expect the lockdowns to end.  I don't believe he said he wanted them all to end immediately.

“Mr. [Justin] Trudeau refuses to give Canadians clarity on whether and when regular and social life will be able to resume and under what circumstances and conditions,” said the Conservative leader.
...
“We are talking about a safe, data-driven, and effective plan to reopening,” said O’Toole. “That will include the border. That will include airports, ports, all areas of federal jurisdiction where there should be a national, rapid-screening and testing process.”


Yeah...  the PM should certainly know precisely when the pandemic will stop spreading.  Just because the best medical experts in the world don’t know, that’s no excuse.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on March 24, 2021, 07:31:37 am
He asked for a timeline for when we can expect the lockdowns to end.  I don't believe he said he wanted them all to end immediately.

“Mr. [Justin] Trudeau refuses to give Canadians clarity on whether and when regular and social life will be able to resume and under what circumstances and conditions,” said the Conservative leader.
...
“We are talking about a safe, data-driven, and effective plan to reopening,” said O’Toole. “That will include the border. That will include airports, ports, all areas of federal jurisdiction where there should be a national, rapid-screening and testing process.”

What a dumb question.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on March 24, 2021, 09:49:23 am
He asked for a timeline for when we can expect the lockdowns to end.  I don't believe he said he wanted them all to end immediately.

Dumb question aimed at the wrong person.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 24, 2021, 10:49:36 am
Yeah...  the PM should certainly know precisely when the pandemic will stop spreading.  Just because the best medical experts in the world don’t know, that’s no excuse.

It's a very hard question to answer and so doesn't make a lot of sense.  Sounds like just mouthing off for his base.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on March 24, 2021, 11:02:08 am
It's a very hard question to answer and so doesn't make a lot of sense.  Sounds like just mouthing off for his base.
It's not a hard question--it's a question that cannot be answered by him. It's exactly as you said: mouthing off for his base.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 24, 2021, 11:35:14 am
oh my! In the HOC today: CPC/O'Foole demand national plan to end COVID-19 restrictions... demanding a national plan to end provincially applied/controlled lockdowns!  ;D
He asked for a timeline for when we can expect the lockdowns to end.  I don't believe he said he wanted them all to end immediately.

it was BuffaloGal Rempel who tabled the motion:
(https://i.imgur.com/0DRmiXF.png)

a timeline? The motion calls for a, "clear data-driven plan to allow COVID-19 restrictions to be lifted"... again, and most obvious to anyone other than a CPC supporter,  setting and lifting lockdown restrictions falls within provincial governance! Member Gorgeous, please re-work your talking point - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 24, 2021, 12:16:23 pm
it was BuffaloGal Rempel who tabled the motion:

a timeline? The motion calls for a, "clear data-driven plan to allow COVID-19 restrictions to be lifted"... again, and most obvious to anyone other than a CPC supporter,  setting and lifting lockdown restrictions falls within provincial governance! Member Gorgeous, please re-work your talking point - yes?

Were they asking for provincial restrictions?  O'Toole specifically mentioned federal restrictions, like borders, ports, airports etc.

I would think any "plan" would be impossible because they'd need to play it by ear depending on how Canada and other countries' cases go down after vaccination.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 24, 2021, 12:54:10 pm
Were they asking for provincial restrictions? O'Toole specifically mentioned federal restrictions, like borders, ports, airports etc.

huh! Does that CPC motion ask... for... restrictions? Riddle me this member Gorgeous, are the "widespread mass lockdowns" at, as you say, borders, ports or airports? Uhhh, no - they're not/they weren't; rather, of course, they occurred/occur within provinces, under the control of the provinces... the setting and lifting of COVID-19 related restrictions.

Quote from: CPC Health 'Critic', BuffaloGal Rempel
Federal public health officials haven't provided clear guidance on when widespread mass lockdowns can end, despite the existence of therapeutics, rapid tests and vaccines.

The federal government has to at least tell people what the plan is to develop benchmarks on how these tools are going to bring freedom, bring prosperity and bring normalcy back to Canadians' lives
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 24, 2021, 02:58:07 pm
huh! Does that CPC motion ask... for... restrictions? Riddle me this member Gorgeous, are the "widespread mass lockdowns" at, as you say, borders, ports or airports? Uhhh, no - they're not/they weren't; rather, of course, they occurred/occur within provinces, under the control of the provinces... the setting and lifting of COVID-19 related restrictions.

This is what Rempel said:  https://www.ourcommons.ca/documentviewer/en/house/latest/hansard

Quote
Yesterday in the House of Commons, I asked the health minister what I thought was a very simple, non-partisan question. I asked when fully vaccinated seniors could give their grandchildren a hug. The answer we got back from the health minister, a year into the pandemic, could be summarized like this: She does not know, is not sure she wants to tell us, and believes it is a provincial jurisdiction, but she will give the provinces advice.  That is not what Canadians want to hear. I think that answer encapsulates best the need for this motion.

    We are a year into COVID‑19, and enough is enough. A year ago, Canadians from coast to coast pulled together to say we had to shut down the economy and undertake these restrictions in order to buy time for public health experts, all of us here in this place, provincial governments and municipal leaders to figure out what COVID‑19 was, how it spreads and who was most vulnerable, and to develop tools to permanently combat it, like therapeutics, rapid tests and vaccines. A year into the pandemic, those tools now exist. The problem is that in Canada, we have not had clear guidance from our health officials on the circumstances under which widespread mass lockdowns can safely end. That is a huge problem.

    Those who are watching today need to understand that no level of government in Canada has issued any advice on what fully vaccinated people can do. The only thing the federal government has said to date, when asked, is that vaccinated people still have to go into controversial quarantine hotels. The federal government has to at least tell people what the plan is to develop benchmarks on how these tools are going to bring freedom, prosperity and normalcy back to the lives of Canadians. Today, we are calling on every member of this House to support the federal government in developing a plan within 20 days on the benchmarks by which these tools can be used in order to let life get back to normal.

    We all acknowledge that it is important to combat the spread of COVID‑19, important to protect people from serious illness, important to prevent death. We have been doing that for the last year, all of us in this place. What is missing now is hope for the future. Canadians have no idea when lockdowns are going to end, and that has to stop.

    Why does that have to stop? It is not just me asking for this. We have Unifor asking for “a national recovery plan to include adapting border restrictions to safely reopen borders”. There is the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. The Tourism Industry Association of Canada has stated, “The news of COVID vaccine distribution gives us reason for cautious optimism”, but said that we need to plan for the recovery of Canada's tourism industry now. The Fitness Industry Council of Canada is asking for a plan. Mayors are asking for plans. Everybody is asking for a plan. It is not just stakeholders who are saying this; it is also medical experts who are saying, “We can't just live in a bubble and have a life of no risk. Everything we do has consequences.” We need a better path forward that uses these tools to protect Canadians' health while also ensuring that life gets back to normal.

    These are stories from the CBC.

    The federal government has to deliver this. Probably the most critical thing the federal government could do right now is deliver a plan with benchmarks on how lockdowns can be gradually, permanently and safely lifted.

    We do not have that. How can businesses plan to reopen if they do not know the circumstances under which they are going to do that? Can we imagine being a restaurant owner right now, when every day it says in the news that we might lock down again, or we might not?

This is not unreasonable to ask for clarification and conditions/benchmarks for when lockdowns can start easing, or what limits currently vaccinated Canadian have and don't have.  This are actually good questions I think.  People have businesses and loved ones and I would think would like more clarification. 

I would assume that lockdowns on ie: border travel have been put in place because certain conditions have been met, based on data.  By what measure can they be lifted?  People's livelihoods are being affected.  If you're going to do something contrary to the Charter of Rights like continue to block a border due to an emergency and every day this decision is costing many Canadians money and limiting their Charter-protected right to freedom of movement then you need a good reason, and that reason needs to be backed by some kind of logic and ideally backed by data rather than a Minister simply pulling hunches out of their arse.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 25, 2021, 06:22:56 am
and the Nays have it... Buffalo Gal's motion is defeated!

(https://i.imgur.com/vUfSifJ.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 25, 2021, 11:26:41 pm
Federal Liberal cabinet ministers will instruct their staff not to appear if called to any parliamentary committees in an attempt to curb what they call an "abuse of power" by opposition parties. (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberals-will-tell-staffers-to-disobey-house-of-commons-summons-rodriguez-1.5361553)

Parliament needs to be able to hold the government to account, whether they like it or not.  This is nothing short of anti-democratic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 26, 2021, 08:59:22 am
Federal Liberal cabinet ministers will instruct their staff not to appear if called to any parliamentary committees in an attempt to curb what they call an "abuse of power" by opposition parties. (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberals-will-tell-staffers-to-disobey-house-of-commons-summons-rodriguez-1.5361553)

Parliament needs to be able to hold the government to account, whether they like it or not.  This is nothing short of anti-democratic.

Wasn’t there a guy named Trump doing the same thing not very long ago?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 26, 2021, 11:05:50 am
Wasn’t there a guy named Trump Harper doing the same thing not very long ago?

correctomundo, member wilber!

Tories block staff from testifying at Parliamentary committees (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/05/25/tories_block_staff_from_testifying_at_parliamentary_committees.html)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 26, 2021, 11:49:18 am
correctomundo, member wilber!

Tories block staff from testifying at Parliamentary committees (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/05/25/tories_block_staff_from_testifying_at_parliamentary_committees.html)

Wrong then, wrong now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 26, 2021, 12:15:06 pm
correctomundo, member wilber!

Tories block staff from testifying at Parliamentary committees (https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/05/25/tories_block_staff_from_testifying_at_parliamentary_committees.html)

Stephen Harper and Justin Trudeau are a-holes.  Anyone who disagrees licks a-hole.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 26, 2021, 02:31:45 pm
Stephen Harper and Justin Trudeau are a-holes.  Anyone who disagrees licks a-hole.

Well you're half right. Harper far exceeded Trudeau in the a-hole category. Look up their approaches to Afghanistan for instance. I can see Harper and Trump being good buddies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 26, 2021, 04:49:11 pm
Well you're half right. Harper far exceeded Trudeau in the a-hole category. Look up their approaches to Afghanistan for instance. I can see Harper and Trump being good buddies.

Trudeau has an approach to Afghanistan?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 26, 2021, 05:07:13 pm
Trudeau has an approach to Afghanistan?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/trudeau-afghanistan-465-million-fact-check-1.5176049
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 26, 2021, 05:36:16 pm
Hundreds of millions in aid went to Afghanistan during the Harper government as well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 26, 2021, 06:17:59 pm
Well you're half right. Harper far exceeded Trudeau in the a-hole category.

Why?  They seem pretty similar to me.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 27, 2021, 11:48:45 am
Wrong then, wrong now.

as much as Harper set the benchmark, the antics of a-holes #PigeonPierre & charlieLingus offers an updated reference.

given all the testimony concerning the WE charity in Canada... given its now defunct... given the jobs program for Canadian youth is long gone... given Morneau is long gone... given the civil service confirmation on how/why WE was chosen/recommended... given statements that recuse (from cabinet) should have occurred, please member wilber, step forward and state the remaining motive for the 2 a-holes. Given the most recent testimony of the brothersKielburger (their second appearances, no less), its quite clear the (former) charity and the Kielburger's themselves are the attack targets now!

member wilber, while you're ignoring the prior request for you to state the motive behind continuing to attack the (former) charity/Kielburgers, share your thoughts on the principle of ministerial accountability - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 27, 2021, 12:05:25 pm
Fine, you think it is OK for governments to prevent civil servants from appearing before parliamentary committees. Nuff said.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 27, 2021, 12:33:43 pm
Fine, you think it is OK for governments to prevent civil servants from appearing before parliamentary committees. Nuff said.

Harper, Trudeau, Waldo.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 27, 2021, 01:23:05 pm
Fine, you think it is OK for governments to prevent civil servants from appearing before parliamentary committees. Nuff said.

puurfect! How can the waldo be surprised you know diddly about this... but, of course, when has that ever stopped you before! You do know the difference between staffers of a minister and the civil service, right?  ;D The dirt-bag opposition want to call, wait for it, wait for it... members of a minister's staff, which ain't the civil service - hey brainiac!

I see you didn't take the bait... your fake outrage, apparently, prevents you from actually stating a motive; here, again:
given all the testimony concerning the WE charity in Canada... given its now defunct... given the jobs program for Canadian youth is long gone... given Morneau is long gone... given the civil service confirmation on how/why WE was chosen/recommended... given statements that recuse (from cabinet) should have occurred, please member wilber, step forward and state the remaining motive for the 2 a-holes. Given the most recent testimony of the brothersKielburger (their second appearances, no less), its quite clear the (former) charity and the Kielburger's themselves are the attack targets now!

member wilber, while you're ignoring the prior request for you to state the motive behind continuing to attack the (former) charity/Kielburgers, share your thoughts on the principle of ministerial accountability - yes?

hey member natteringGorgeous, get in the game, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 27, 2021, 04:04:30 pm
China sanctions Canadian MP's and others for calling out China genocide LOL.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-sanctions-canadians-michael-chong-1.5966910
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 27, 2021, 05:55:25 pm
China sanctions Canadian MP's and others for calling out China genocide LOL.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-sanctions-canadians-michael-chong-1.5966910

That shouldn't be a surprise. I agree with Chong, at this point it's an honour to be sanctioned by China.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 27, 2021, 11:29:31 pm
in the matter of references to the Court of Appeal for Saskatchewan, the Court of Appeal for Ontario and the Court of Appeal of Alberta respecting the constitutionality of the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act, S.C. 2018, c. 12, s. 186 (https://qweri.lexum.com/w/calegis/sc-2018-c-12-s-186-en#!fragment/Her_Majesty__5446/BQCwhgziBcwMYgK4DsDWszIQewE4BUBTADwBdoAJQ3AfQFkwArQiUgTxpoFYAWHgNgCUAGmTZSLAIqJqbaAHJ5wiITC4E02QqUq1CAMp5SAITkAlAKIAZCwDUAggDkAwheGkwAI2ilscQYJAA) --- The Supreme Court of Canada rules the federal carbon pricing law is constitutional

CPC Transport Critic Stephanie Kusie has some questions for the SCOC! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1375518774254661632/pu/vid/720x720/HqFFxucw-av2gedi.mp4?tag=12)  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2021, 12:23:31 am
carbon pricing is NOT a tax!

SCOC majority ruling noted that the term “carbon tax” is often used to describe the pricing of carbon emissions. However, they said this has nothing to do with the concept of taxation, as understood in the constitutional context. As such, they also concluded that the fuel and excess emission charges imposed by the Act were constitutionally valid regulatory charges and not taxes.

someone pleeeeeese inform CPC leader O'Foole as he vows a CPC government will repeal the 'Trudeau carbon tax regulatory charges' (https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1877772355673/)

and, of course, O'Foole continues the CPC talking point lie that it's, "the poorest of Canadians that are paying"... without any regard to rebates Climate Action Incentive monies distributed back to the respective province in which they were raised:
(https://i.imgur.com/zRTzeSG.png)

by law:

Quote
all revenues from the carbon price are to be returned to the province in which they were raised, with 10 per cent going into funds to help smaller businesses, schools, hospitals and municipal governments cut their own emissions and 90 per cent going to families through income tax rebates.

Federal carbon plan will cost the rich and benefit the poor, Parliamentary Budget Officer says (https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/04/25/federal-carbon-plan-will-cost-the-rich-and-benefit-the-poor-parliamentary-budget-officer-says.html)

Quote
Parliamentary Budget Officer Yves Giroux detailed billions of dollars in expected revenues from the federal carbon-pricing scheme, and how most of this money will be returned through tax rebates that start this year.

The report says lower-income households will benefit the most from these payouts, while wealthier people will bear the brunt of increased costs of energy and consumer goods from the initiative, which includes a new tax on fuel and a separate emissions-pricing system for large industries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 28, 2021, 04:52:16 pm
That won't last long. We just racked up almost 400 billion in new debt, governments will  be desperate for money and won't be able to keep their hands off it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: BC_cheque on March 28, 2021, 08:23:59 pm
There are rumbles of capital gains on sale of personal property.  While I agree that we could tighten up the exemption, the logic behind having the exemption in the first place is sound. 

I hope they don't consider it just to pay for the COVID spending. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 28, 2021, 09:12:52 pm
There are rumbles of capital gains on sale of personal property.  While I agree that we could tighten up the exemption, the logic behind having the exemption in the first place is sound. 

I hope they don't consider it just to pay for the COVID spending.

The US has it but they also make mortgage interest tax deductible and they only pay tax on any difference between the home you sold and the one you bought. If they just make any profit from a sale taxable, people won't be able to afford to move unless they downsize.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2021, 09:50:29 pm
That won't last long. We just racked up almost 400 billion in new debt, governments will  be desperate for money and won't be able to keep their hands off it.

I doubt they have any intentions of paying anything back.  We'll pass it onto our grand children yada yada.

But if any government wants to add taxes, this is the time to do it because at least they have an excuse.  So I could see taxes being raised, but they'll probably just spend it on other programs like pharmacare or whatnot.  Remember when the GST was brought in to curb the debt accrued in the 1980's?  The debt was brought under control in the 90's with help from the GST and a booming global economy, but the taxes didn't go away.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2021, 10:12:20 pm
The US has it but they also make mortgage interest tax deductible and they only pay tax on any difference between the home you sold and the one you bought. If they just make any profit from a sale taxable, people won't be able to afford to move unless they downsize.

The Liberals have a great solution to rising housing prices!:  raise annual immigration levels from 240k in 2015 to 421k by 2023.

We had fairly stable immigration levels from 2000 to 2015 at ~250k.  I think governments need to ensure that there's enough housing being built in the places where immigrants are settling.  If you want 400k new residents then make sure homes are able to be built for 400k more people.  But they don't care, they pass the problems onto the provinces, municipalities, and home-buyers.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 28, 2021, 10:45:37 pm
I doubt they have any intentions of paying anything back.  We'll pass it onto our grand children yada yada.

But if any government wants to add taxes, this is the time to do it because at least they have an excuse.  So I could see taxes being raised, but they'll probably just spend it on other programs like pharmacare or whatnot.  Remember when the GST was brought in to curb the debt accrued in the 1980's?  The debt was brought under control in the 90's with help from the GST and a booming global economy, but the taxes didn't go away.

They will have their hands full just servicing all that new debt. New taxes are government driven inflation which will inevitably result in higher interest rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2021, 12:56:41 am
They will have their hands full just servicing all that new debt.

But do they care?  Or would they rather get re-elected?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on March 29, 2021, 07:59:45 am
1. We had fairly stable immigration levels from 2000 to 2015 at ~250k. 
2. I think governments need to ensure that there's enough housing being built in the places where immigrants are settling.  If you want 400k new residents then make sure homes are able to be built for 400k more people.  But they don't care, they pass the problems onto the provinces, municipalities, and home-buyers.
1. I was about to chew you out for this, but lo and behold you are RIGHT.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/443063/number-of-immigrants-in-canada/

I think we hear about government-approved levels more than actuals.

2. True but the problem is actually worse than that in that nobody KNOWS the demand and supply of housing in the GTA to any accuracy AFAIK.  The talk of supply shortages is often driven by vested interests such as developers, real estate companies and the governments that benefit directly and indirectly from the bubble.

Professor Josh Gordon may be the single analyst who is saying the emperor HAS NO CLOTHES ON.

Gordon concludes that "housing construction has more than kept up with population growth in recent years." Based on CMHC statistics, the illustration below shows that the recent population growth is relatively low compared to housing completions in the Toronto CMA

Imagine that.  It also makes immigration policy a little starker.

https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/03/torontos-housing-crisis-problem-supply-or-demand

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2021, 08:58:44 am
But do they care?  Or would they rather get re-elected?

In the mid nineties we didn’t have a choice, Chrétien and Martin had to slash spending because investors were balking at buying our debt. A 2% rise in interest rates over a five year period would drive up our debt servicing costs dramatically.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2021, 01:23:08 pm
Our total debt to GDP is now higher than when it peaked in 1995.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2021, 01:46:33 pm
Our total debt to GDP is now higher than when it peaked in 1995.

Canada's total debt as % of GDP (for all governments and household debt etc.) is 2nd highest among developed nations, 2nd only to Japan:  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-02/trudeau-s-debt-binge-shows-limits-in-canada-s-sharp-contraction

Federal debt to GDP doesn't tell the whole story if provinces and households don't have the fiscal room to take on more federal debt if they're already in debt up to their eyeballs.  I find Canadians to be very fiscally irresponsible both on a government level and personal level.  Many behave like entitled children.  The politicians in my province have destroyed the government finances for decades to come due to pure arrogance, corruption, and gross incompetence, and yet people voted them back in.

I'm eager to see how much COVID handout money is returned after tax returns this year so we can have a better picture of what the feds owe.

The country really needs to reign in household debt via rising housing prices.  I think it's the most important issue facing the country and nothing else is even close.  If say 20% more of your paycheck is going to mortgage payments per month that's effectively a 20% income reduction, 20% decrease in standard of living, 20% decrease in money you can spend in other parts of the economy, 20% more years you have to work before retiring, and ever more likely you may choose not to have as many kids due to cost of living etc.  The wolves running the banks and housing developers are at the door, they've bought off our politicians, and they're laughing all the way to the bank.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2021, 01:48:09 pm
Our total debt to GDP is now higher than when it peaked in 1995.

now do nominal GDP... and your favourite (to ignore), net debt!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2021, 01:51:10 pm
by law:

Quote
all revenues from the carbon price are to be returned to the province in which they were raised, with 10 per cent going into funds to help smaller businesses, schools, hospitals and municipal governments cut their own emissions and 90 per cent going to families through income tax rebates.

Federal carbon plan will cost the rich and benefit the poor, Parliamentary Budget Officer says (https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/04/25/federal-carbon-plan-will-cost-the-rich-and-benefit-the-poor-parliamentary-budget-officer-says.html)

Quote
Parliamentary Budget Officer Yves Giroux detailed billions of dollars in expected revenues from the federal carbon-pricing scheme, and how most of this money will be returned through tax rebates that start this year.

The report says lower-income households will benefit the most from these payouts, while wealthier people will bear the brunt of increased costs of energy and consumer goods from the initiative, which includes a new tax on fuel and a separate emissions-pricing system for large industries.

(https://i.imgur.com/m3NNgHh.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2021, 02:56:08 pm
now do nominal GDP... and your favourite (to ignore), net debt!

Net debt, what absolute BS. Net debt is what you have after you sell every asset you own.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2021, 03:44:27 pm
According to the Federal Government financial report for the fiscal year 2019/20 ending on March 31 2020.

Liabilities 1248.6 Billion
Assets 435.7 Billion

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/services/publications/annual-financial-report/2020/report.html

Since then we have added over 350 billion to the liability column.

Of course this doesn't include provincial and municipal debt.

Compare us all you want to other countries, we are in hock up to our ears.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2021, 04:27:08 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/3lFJndM.png) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2021, 04:39:27 pm
Your article is April 2020 man, this pandemic was just getting started and it hadn't affected revenues or spending at all.

As you can see from the financial report, the governments liabilities are 300% of its assets. This year it will be up to 400%.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 29, 2021, 06:48:01 pm
According to the Federal Government financial report for the fiscal year 2019/20 ending on March 31 2020.

Liabilities 1248.6 Billion
Assets 435.7 Billion

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/services/publications/annual-financial-report/2020/report.html

Since then we have added over 350 billion to the liability column.

Of course this doesn't include provincial and municipal debt.

Compare us all you want to other countries, we are in hock up to our ears.
Canada is only worth 435.7 billion? That seems a little low considering there's an asteroid out there only 140 miles in diameter called Psyche that's been valued at 10 quadrillion dollars.
 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2021, 07:42:49 pm
Canada is only worth 435.7 billion? That seems a little low considering there's an asteroid out there only 140 miles in diameter called Psyche that's been valued at 10 quadrillion dollars.
 

Our federal government's financial assets are only worth 435.7 billion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: BC_cheque on March 29, 2021, 09:07:09 pm
The Liberals have a great solution to rising housing prices!:  raise annual immigration levels from 240k in 2015 to 421k by 2023.

We had fairly stable immigration levels from 2000 to 2015 at ~250k.  I think governments need to ensure that there's enough housing being built in the places where immigrants are settling.  If you want 400k new residents then make sure homes are able to be built for 400k more people.  But they don't care, they pass the problems onto the provinces, municipalities, and home-buyers.

Even if we did more to disperse immigrants it could potentially work.  The big cities are growing way too fast, it's difficult to imagine how we can sustain this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 29, 2021, 09:18:51 pm
Our federal government's financial assets are only worth 435.7 billion.
And that's the collateral lenders were willing to take? Is this a case of sucker being born every minute or...what am I missing here?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2021, 09:23:53 pm
And that's the collateral lenders were willing to take? Is this a case of sucker being born every minute or...what am I missing here?
it's all about perceived ability to pay, not collateral. Collateral is for regular people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 30, 2021, 12:07:47 am
Your article is April 2020 man, this pandemic was just getting started and it hadn't affected revenues or spending at all.

no - July, 2020; in any case: "Canada remains among the top rated countries in the G7 and continues to hold a AAA rating, with a stable outlook, from all major credit rating agencies except Fitch. Rating agencies indicate that Canada's strong credit ratings are supported by its economic and institutional strengths, well-capitalized and developed financial markets, and monetary and fiscal buffers, which underpin its resilience to economic shocks such as COVID-19. They also note that the country’s effective, stable and predictable policy-making contributes to steady demand from long-term investors."

(https://i.imgur.com/nkn0QzB.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 30, 2021, 12:24:10 am
it's all about perceived ability to pay

does your personal perception of Canada's, as you say, "ability to pay"...differ from that of 'lenders' to Canada?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 30, 2021, 03:51:09 pm
does your personal perception of Canada's, as you say, "ability to pay"...differ from that of 'lenders' to Canada?

Right now the biggest lender to Canada is the Bank of Canada. It just prints money and loans it to the government at low rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 31, 2021, 12:04:52 pm
Right now the biggest lender to Canada is the Bank of Canada. It just prints money and loans it to the government at low rates.

yours is a disingenuous focus! Yes, the Bank of Canada is the biggest single lender; however it, typically, is on par with the level of debt monies owed to foreign interests... but it pales in comparison to the largest grouping... that of banks, trust and loan companies, investment funds, insurance companies, pension funds, etc..
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 31, 2021, 07:02:28 pm
yours is a disingenuous focus! Yes, the Bank of Canada is the biggest single lender; however it, typically, is on par with the level of debt monies owed to foreign interests... but it pales in comparison to the largest grouping... that of banks, trust and loan companies, investment funds, insurance companies, pension funds, etc..

Most of the new borrowing is coming from central banks. There isn't enough private money in the world floating around to support the amount of debt governments have racked up in the past year. A big reason the stock market has been on a roll despite the pandemic is because there is no money to be made in bonds
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 31, 2021, 07:24:33 pm
A big reason the stock market has been on a roll despite the pandemic is because there is no money to be made in bonds
I read somewhere that yields on 10 year US Treasury Bonds could be moving up in the near future.  Apparently this is considered the safest investment on Earth due to the fact these bonds are backed by the US government. Is it just me or does that seem really weird? Presumably if or when the US government becomes unstable the rest of the planet's governments can be counted on to be as relatively unstable.  Probably more as a result though I'm betting.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 31, 2021, 07:31:09 pm
I read somewhere that yields on 10 year US Treasury Bonds could be moving up in the near future.  Apparently this is considered the safest investment on Earth due to the fact these bonds are backed by the US government. Is it just me or does that seem really weird? Presumably if or when the US government becomes unstable the rest of the planet's governments can be counted on to be as relatively unstable.  Probably more as a result though I'm betting.

If yields are going up on new issues, so is the cost of servicing the debt. It will also put pressure on our bank to raise rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 31, 2021, 07:45:14 pm
If yields are going up on new issues, so is the cost of servicing the debt. It will also put pressure on our bank to raise rates.
If rates go up the economy goes down putting pressure on banks to lower them again. I'm sure I've seen this movie before.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 31, 2021, 09:15:06 pm
If rates go up the economy goes down putting pressure on banks to lower them again. I'm sure I've seen this movie before.

We don't have control over that. If our rates stay lower than other countries our dollar tanks, inflation increases and rates have to go up again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 31, 2021, 09:19:41 pm
It sounds like the USofA is going to be raising taxes on corporations in the next few years.

Hopefully Canada will follow suit.  We are under-taxed currently.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on March 31, 2021, 09:29:56 pm
We don't have control over that.
Well someone does, we just have to get control over them.  That sounds even easier given there's likely only a mere handful of 'them' compared to the rest of us.

Quote
If our rates stay lower than other countries our dollar tanks, inflation increases and rates have to go up again.
What about when everyone is in the same boat or flotilla thereof?  It all just seems to relative to believe there's much substantial reality to the beliefs keeping the whole from capsizing, especially given the importance and faith assigned to the stability of the US government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 31, 2021, 09:44:01 pm
Well someone does, we just have to get control over them.  That sounds even easier given there's likely only a mere handful of 'them' compared to the rest of us.
What about when everyone is in the same boat or flotilla thereof?  It all just seems to relative to believe there's much substantial reality to the beliefs keeping the whole from capsizing, especially given the importance and faith assigned to the stability of the US government.

Like it or not, our currency is in competition with every other currency.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 31, 2021, 09:44:49 pm
It sounds like the USofA is going to be raising taxes on corporations in the next few years.

Hopefully Canada will follow suit.  We are under-taxed currently.

No worries, get ready for lots more taxes. Tomorrow in fact.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 12:52:32 pm
The government expects to help the economy recover by taking more money out of it. Meanwhile inflation will force interest rates up which will put pressure on governments to service all their new debt. We have dug ourselves quite a hole.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 03, 2021, 01:08:46 pm
The government expects to help the economy recover by taking more money out of it. Meanwhile inflation will force interest rates up which will put pressure on governments to service all their new debt. We have dug ourselves quite a hole.
So what, who cares exactly? Only 16% of us, 25% or 50%+1?  Where has it been resolved that the economy takes precedent over human lives? Where is the record of Parliamentary debate and the majority vote that lead to passage of a COVID Response Act that spells out that the economy comes first?

Do we dig one big collective hole for the economy or a bunch of individual ones for people?  Is there a large growing body of evidence somewhere that proves saving people in the short term will kill more people in the long term?  The history of the Spanish Flu shows that jurisdictions that put the economy first resulted in poorer economic outcomes than it did in places that put lives first. Needless to say economy first policies also killed more people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2021, 01:15:32 pm
The government expects to help the economy recover by taking more money out of it.

the waldo expects member wilber to provide supporting details/reference... request for clarification - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 01:17:48 pm
So what, who cares exactly? Only 16% of us, 25% or 50%+1?  Where has it been resolved that the economy takes precedent over human lives? Where is the record of Parliamentary debate and the majority vote that lead to passage of a COVID Response Act that spells out the reality that the economy comes first?

Do we dig one big collective hole for the economy or a bunch of individual ones for people?

We are doing both. The economy is the people. What do you think will happen to the people when government has to slash and burn because investors don't want to buy our debt and get nothing in return?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 03, 2021, 01:23:34 pm
Where is the record of Parliamentary debate and the majority vote that lead to passage of a COVID Response Act that spells out the reality that the economy comes first?

supported minority government rulzzz!

in any case, the Trudeau Liberal government's 'COVID-19 Economic Response Plan', of course, also directly supports individuals... and organizations that help individuals. EI changes, CRB, CRSB, CRCB, mortgage deferral, etc..
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 01:28:30 pm
the waldo expects member wilber to provide supporting details/reference... request for clarification - yes?

It's an opinion piece but ignore it at your peril.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/inflation-housing-treasury-bond-1.5969467

Bottom line, if US bond rates go up, ours will have to go up and our debt gets more expensive to service. It ours don't go up our dollar will tank because no one will want our currency (debt). If our dollar tanks, we get poorer which equals inflation which also means higher interest rates. 

It's not rocket surgery.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 03, 2021, 02:20:43 pm
We are doing both. The economy is the people. What do you think will happen to the people when government has to slash and burn because investors don't want to buy our debt and get nothing in return?
We're doing both badly because the language and terms we use to describe what's happening is so ambiguous and imprecise.  The economy is not the people. Unless you are being deliberately allegorical they are two completely different things.This is as bad and misleading and deluded as saying 'we can't just down the economy forever'. Forever means infinity.  No one is saying we must just down the economy for infinity so why pretend that's what they mean?

The issue of mixed messaging will probably emerge as having been the worse contributing factor to COVID's success.

 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 03, 2021, 02:25:42 pm
It's an opinion piece but ignore it at your peril.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/inflation-housing-treasury-bond-1.5969467

Bottom line, if US bond rates go up, ours will have to go up and our debt gets more expensive to service. It ours don't go up our dollar will tank because no one will want our currency (debt). If our dollar tanks, we get poorer which equals inflation which also means higher interest rates. 

It's not rocket surgery.
What happens when US debt becomes to expensive to service?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 02:37:28 pm
What happens when US debt becomes to expensive to service?

Maybe we should just worry about what we do. We aren't the world's reserve currency like the USD.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 02:50:52 pm
We're doing both badly because the language and terms we use to describe what's happening is so ambiguous and imprecise.  The economy is not the people. Unless you are being deliberately allegorical they are two completely different things.This is as bad and misleading and deluded as saying 'we can't just down the economy forever'. Forever means infinity.  No one is saying we must just down the economy for infinity so why pretend that's what they mean?

The issue of mixed messaging will probably emerge as having been the worse contributing factor to COVID's success.

The economy is the people. You can't help people if you don't have a strong economy to pay for it.

Investors are starting to say I'm not going to give you my money for ten years if I am only going to get 1% for it. That's why the Dow and S&P are up 50% in the last year and the TSX is up 40%. Why would people lock their money in a ten year bond at 1% when they can buy a quality stock, get a 3 or 4% dividend and probably make a good capital gain over ten years?

You can't print your way to prosperity. You can't keep increasing the money supply if there is no increase in GDP to justify it. How do you think countries like Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela ended up with hyper inflation and worthless currencies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 03, 2021, 04:10:54 pm
The economy is the people. You can't help people if you don't have a strong economy to pay for it.

Investors are starting to say I'm not going to give you my money for ten years if I am only going to get 1% for it. That's why the Dow and S&P are up 50% in the last year and the TSX is up 40%. Why would people lock their money in a ten year bond at 1% when they can buy a quality stock, get a 3 or 4% dividend and probably make a good capital gain over ten years?

You can't print your way to prosperity. You can't keep increasing the money supply if there is no increase in GDP to justify it. How do you think countries like Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela ended up with hyper inflation and worthless currencies.
I would have thought preventing disease and the loss of life would be justification enough. I suspect the endemic corruption that existed long before COVID in Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela is what put them in the poor house. But hey, what do I know, perhaps the only real way to create prosperity is with a little corruption.  Too much is probably bad for you but given how many corporations seem to have forsaken most western countries perhaps we're not corrupt enough.   

Quote
You can't print your way to prosperity.
I'm taking about printing our way to the end of the pandemic.  Why did you change the topic from getting thru a pandemic to creating prosperity?  There's no justification for clouding the issue this way.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 03, 2021, 04:13:50 pm
Maybe we should just worry about what we do. We aren't the world's reserve currency like the USD.

The US is a failing super-power and it's currency has no more business being the world's reserve currency then Russia's. By this reasoning China should be dictating to the world how the economy works.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 05:55:47 pm
The US is a failing super-power and it's currency has no more business being the world's reserve currency then Russia's. By this reasoning China should be dictating to the world how the economy works.

But it is. Ours isn't and never will be.

The US is still by far the largest economy of any country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 06:06:29 pm
I would have thought preventing disease and the loss of life would be justification enough. I suspect the endemic corruption that existed long before COVID in Brazil, Argentina and Venezuela is what put them in the poor house. But hey, what do I know, perhaps the only real way to create prosperity is with a little corruption.  Too much is probably bad for you but given how many corporations seem to have forsaken most western countries perhaps we're not corrupt enough.   
I'm taking about printing our way to the end of the pandemic.  Why did you change the topic from getting thru a pandemic to creating prosperity?  There's no justification for clouding the issue this way.

I'm just saying there will be long term consequences to all that spending. Those consequences could be trying to service a crippling debt which would put us no further ahead in the long run. There were those who maintained it doesn't matter what we spent, anything was justified, it didn't matter if a few dozen billions were wasted or miss directed, speed was all that mattered.  It does and it wasn't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 03, 2021, 09:52:34 pm
I'm just saying there will be long term consequences to all that spending. Those consequences could be trying to service a crippling debt which would put us no further ahead in the long run. There were those who maintained it doesn't matter what we spent, anything was justified, it didn't matter if a few dozen billions were wasted or miss directed, speed was all that mattered.  It does and it wasn't.
And history is saying the consequences of putting the economy first will have worse economic consequences. No doubt we'll be warned of dire consequences if we don't borrow even more to save the economy.  Godspeed will be the order of the day.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 03, 2021, 10:41:26 pm
And history is saying the consequences of putting the economy first will have worse economic consequences. No doubt we'll be warned of dire consequences if we don't borrow even more to save the economy.  Godspeed will be the order of the day.

Oh, there will be consequences. What happened in the nineties is creditors were balking at lending to Canada so Chretien and Martin had to slash spending and a lot federal responsibilities got downloaded to provinces
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2021, 12:12:03 am
(https://i.imgur.com/gXeVams.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 13, 2021, 01:04:56 am
what's in a readout statement, hey!

(https://i.imgur.com/p6WyCRp.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 13, 2021, 01:05:47 am
Look at all those voters afraid CPC gonna cut their free money.  Best election money can buy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 22, 2021, 11:35:16 pm
Well this is odd:  https://globalnews.ca/news/7780124/canadian-forces-military-misconduct-kellie-brennan/

Quote
Maj. Kellie Brennan tells MPs Vance said he was ‘untouchable,’ fathered 2 of her kids

Maj. Kellie Brennan says former chief of the defence staff Gen. Jonathan Vance told her he was “untouchable” and that he “owned” the military police. She also said “he fathered two children with me.”

Global News reached out to Vance in February about the allegations. When asked if he was the father of one specific child by name, Vance said: “I am not.” When asked whether he was the father of another specific child by name, he said, “I don’t even know who these people are.”
...
“On a personal note, he fathered two children with me. He’s not responsible to pay or to have those children under his responsibility. It’s all up to me,” Brennan said in testimony before the House of Commons status of women committee on Thursday night.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 23, 2021, 03:18:23 am
Minister Guilbeault touched a BuffaloGal nerve!

(https://i.imgur.com/91dcB2u.png)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 27, 2021, 07:12:16 am
(https://i.imgur.com/nSBh69h.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on May 08, 2021, 06:52:20 pm
CEWS seems like a joke.  The only way to save it is if by miracle things sort out after this tax season and transparency improves.  Don't hold your breathe:

"Wage subsidies were meant to preserve jobs. In many cases, the $110.6-billion response padded bottom lines"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-emergency-wage-subsidy-data-analysis/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-cews-a-massive-subsidy-shrouded-in-secrecy/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 02, 2021, 05:55:27 pm
Bill C-233 was defeated today.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7915810/abortion-bill-vote-bill-c-233/amp/

Anyone who is for such a bill, I’d like to know how, specifically, it would be enforced.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 02, 2021, 08:56:00 pm
Conservatives who voted for the bill are evil monsters for trying to stop abortions on the basis of sex (gendercide) and only want to control women's bodies.  Everything is a trojan horse towards the conspiracy to control women's bodies.

All women deserve the right to kill their fetus if they don't like the sex of the baby because this is what human rights look like.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 02, 2021, 09:26:38 pm
Conservatives who voted for the bill are evil monsters for trying to stop abortions on the basis of sex (gendercide) and only want to control women's bodies.  Everything is a trojan horse towards the conspiracy to control women's bodies.

All women deserve the right to kill their fetus if they don't like the sex of the baby because this is what human rights look like.

Please tell us how you would enforce this.  Lie detectors?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 02, 2021, 09:30:23 pm
Please tell us how you would enforce this.  Lie detectors?

Enforce this?  THEY ALL NEED TO DIEEEEEE
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 02, 2021, 09:31:25 pm
Enforce this?  THEY ALL NEED TO DIEEEEEE

Ok then. Great conversation.  Clueless as per usual.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 02, 2021, 09:38:13 pm
Ok then. Great conversation.  Clueless as per usual.

You hurt my feelings my feelings just DIIIEEED.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 07, 2021, 11:09:15 am
Justice Minister David Lametti...

(https://i.imgur.com/DEwfV0l.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 07, 2021, 12:30:36 pm
=> as a backdrop reference, the 2007 settlement:
Quote
The court-approved compensation scheme arose out of a comprehensive class-action settlement in 2007 involving survivors, the federal government and churches that ran the schools. The Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement included a Common Experience Payment for all students who attended the schools, a five-year endowment for the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, and the Independent Assessment Process (IAP) to adjudicate claims from students who had suffered abuse at the schools.

Under the IAP, claimants were entitled to up to $275,000 each, based on the nature and level of abuse suffered.

In all 38,276 claims were received, with Saskatchewan having the most claimants. Adjudicators awarded $2.14 billion in compensation to 23,431 claimants while another 4,415 claimants received compensation directly from the federal government.

Overall, the Harper Conservative government paid out $3.23 billion in compensation and other costs. The process itself cost another $411 million.

which brings us to a 2016 Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruling ordering the federal government to pay $40,000 each to some 50,000 First Nations children separated from their families by a chronically underfunded child-welfare system - $2 billion dollars! ... a ruling the federal government is currently appealing before the Federal Court of Appeal.

(https://i.imgur.com/4sxZD2U.png)

c'mon waldo, surely the NDP wouldn't attempt to fund raise over this issue - surely not! So it is such interesting timing that has Jugmeet ramping it up this past week... with the ever coalescing Charlie Angus running in lock-step! To be expected, the NDP has been getting no critical review/questioning from mainstream journalists... well except for, it seems, back in March when  the ever diligent and (typically) on point Dale Smith wrote an article that appeared at the Canadian Bar Association --- The wrong precedent - Should the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal be able to grant individual remedies for systemic discrimination against on-reserve First Nations children? (https://nationalmagazine.ca/en-ca/articles/law/in-depth/2021/the-wrong-precedent)

Quote
Ottawa is arguing that it cannot, as it appeals a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal order to compensate First Nations children and caregivers for the inadequacies of the child and family services provided to them. The CHRT ruled in 2016 that the federal government discriminated against First Nations children by underfunding on-reserve child welfare services. In 2019, the tribunal awarded up to $40,000 to children who had been made wards of the state. The government says it is not opposed to compensation per se, and is actively negotiating a solution – only that the CHRT exceeded its statutory authority in making the orders that it did.

"Canada does not dispute that its child and family services funding system was broken and needed immediate and substantial reform," the government's factum to the Federal Court reads. "The issue here is whether the children should receive compensation in a Tribunal proceeding that focused on systemic discrimination, rather than in a class action in this Court where the rules better protect the interests of victims."

The government contends that no individuals were party to the litigation, and furthermore, the CHRT's decision defined the definition of "First Nations child" as including those who did not live on reserves and did not have Indian Act status, which they say is an issue of identity that First Nations themselves have not yet decided.

University of Ottawa law professor Paul Daly agrees that the government is right to have concerns that the CHRT doesn't have a roving commission of inquiry to remedy problems as it sees fit.

"What the government is saying is that [the CHRT] has to act within the procedures it has set for itself, and if it's dealing with a systemic discrimination claim, it can't turn around then and use that as a platform for giving remedies to individuals," says Daly.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 01:50:10 pm
Quote
What the government is saying is that [the CHRT] has to act within the procedures it has set for itself
That's pretty rich coming from a government that chronically and serially avoids procedures it sets for itself. Take its need for implementation plans for action plans and reviews of reviews of sexual abuse in the military for example.

I note the government says it isn't opposed to compensation but it just can't seem to get around to it at the moment. It can always top up the $40,000 later, at its leisure of course.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 07, 2021, 02:40:31 pm
The NDP shouldn't be politically weaponizing pictures of indigenous children for its own gain, even if it thinks it has a point.  Like c'mon that's a bit much.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on June 07, 2021, 07:30:39 pm
The NDP shouldn't be politically weaponizing pictures of indigenous children for its own gain, even if it thinks it has a point.  Like c'mon that's a bit much.
Says who? Everyone that is opposed to the status quo of institutional systemic inaction and dysfunction should weaponize anything and everything that rubs the governments nose in this ****.

I regard it as a duty. You'll just never be able to get your head around the fact we're actually fighting for something will you?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 07, 2021, 09:05:50 pm
Says who? Everyone that is opposed to the status quo of institutional systemic inaction and dysfunction should weaponize anything and everything that rubs the governments nose in this ****.

I regard it as a duty. You'll just never be able to get your head around the fact we're actually fighting for something will you?

Says me.

I want justice for indigenous people too.  A party flipping up photos of indigenous children to score political points in the run up to an election season is bad taste.  Do you really think this Liberal government is trying to screw over native children?

I just don't like children being used as sympathy pawns for some cause, no matter what it is.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 07, 2021, 10:55:44 pm
Adults need to fight their own battles.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on June 08, 2021, 09:26:29 am
Do you really think this Liberal government is trying to screw over native children?
No I think its trying to do what every other government in the past has done which is speak in defence of the institution that screwed them over.

Quote
I just don't like children being used as sympathy pawns for some cause, no matter what it is.
It sucks alright.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2021, 02:07:28 pm
I note the government says it isn't opposed to compensation but it just can't seem to get around to it at the moment. It can always top up the $40,000 later, at its leisure of course.

perhaps you're unaware of ongoing negotiations. As the waldo understands, First Nation negotiators are particularly focused on:
=> the fairness of compensation. As the CHRT ruling provides, there is no qualification to award compensation based on the severity of the absence of on-reserve child welfare services... on the respective degree of the inadequacies of the child and family services provided
=> their own determination of what defines a "First Nations child"... that the CHRT's ruling defined the definition of "First Nations child" as including those who did not live on reserves and did not have Indian Act status

the article I linked to speaks to the issue of a class action lawsuit (presumed to better protect the interests of applicable "First Nations children"), versus the federal government's position challenging the statutory authority of the CHRT itself.

it's too bad you chose to deflect/bluster rather than address the particulars within my post.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2021, 02:16:18 pm
The NDP shouldn't be politically weaponizing pictures of indigenous children for its own gain, even if it thinks it has a point.  Like c'mon that's a bit much.

with NDP Singh, ad nauseam, falsely stating the federal government is taking Indigenous children to court... over and over and over again, NDP Singh knowingly flogging this misinformation lie to media persons/outlets without receiving any media scrutiny/questioning of his claim! While also actively fundraising off this bullshyte NDP play!

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2021, 11:13:07 am
perhaps you're unaware of ongoing negotiations. As the waldo understands, First Nation negotiators are particularly focused on:
=> the fairness of compensation. As the CHRT ruling provides, there is no qualification to award compensation based on the severity of the absence of on-reserve child welfare services... on the respective degree of the inadequacies of the child and family services provided
=> their own determination of what defines a "First Nations child"... that the CHRT's ruling defined the definition of "First Nations child" as including those who did not live on reserves and did not have Indian Act status

the article I linked to speaks to the issue of a class action lawsuit (presumed to better protect the interests of applicable "First Nations children"), versus the federal government's position challenging the statutory authority of the CHRT itself.

it's too bad you chose to deflect/bluster rather than address the particulars within my post.

as just announced... with, again, reference to a class action lawsuit, a settlement reached on residential school day scholars - as pertains to students who attended residential schools by day but went home at night... who were not included in the following described 2007 Harper Conservatives settlement agreement:

Quote
The court-approved compensation scheme arose out of a comprehensive class-action settlement in 2007 involving survivors, the federal government and churches that ran the schools. The Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement included a Common Experience Payment for all students who attended the schools, a five-year endowment for the Aboriginal Healing Foundation, and the Independent Assessment Process (IAP) to adjudicate claims from students who had suffered abuse at the schools.

Under the IAP, claimants were entitled to up to $275,000 each, based on the nature and level of abuse suffered.

In all 38,276 claims were received, with Saskatchewan having the most claimants. Adjudicators awarded $2.14 billion in compensation to 23,431 claimants while another 4,415 claimants received compensation directly from the federal government.

Overall, the Harper Conservative government paid out $3.23 billion in compensation and other costs. The process itself cost another $411 million.

Crown-Indigenous Relations Minister Carolyn Bennett said the settlement will see survivors receive compensation of $10,000 each... to address additional harms suffered by the students at the school, Ottawa will also invest $50 million into a Day Scholars Revitalization Fund.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on June 10, 2021, 09:43:54 pm
it's too bad you chose to deflect/bluster rather than address the particulars within my post.
None of which changes the fact that Liberals are a bunch of dog seducers.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2021, 10:00:58 pm
Green MP Jenica Atwin crossing the floor to join the Liberals:

(https://i.imgur.com/eeZrQTd.png)

Quote
Atwin, a former teacher and community organizer in Oromocto, N.B., said there were too many "distractions" in the Green Party and she wanted to work in a more "supportive and collaborative" environment

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2021, 10:16:25 pm
Anyone who leaves their party should sit as an independent until the next election then change parties.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on June 11, 2021, 08:28:09 am
 
It was about internal disagreements over Israel.  Hard to believe they couldn't get 3 people on the same page...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on June 11, 2021, 01:13:32 pm
The Greens really messed up on this one. Green took a strong Liberal riding from incumbent Matt DeCourcey because he did little to nothing for the city. Jenica is an infectious leader who impressed like few politicians ever had. She truly went around and talked to everyone and seemed genuinely interested in what they had to say and their issues. I voted for her in the last election and in spite of her party affiliation, I will vote for her again unless something dramatic changes my opinion of her.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 11, 2021, 03:31:41 pm
This obsession from the Greens over the Middle East lost my vote, unless they can change track and concentrate their efforts on domestic issues again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 11, 2021, 03:55:35 pm
Quote
"Atwin directly challenged Paul's position on the conflict, saying Paul's call for de-escalation and a return to dialogue between the two was "totally inadequate."

"I stand with Palestine and condemn the unthinkable airstrikes in Gaza. End Apartheid!" Atwin tweeted on May 11."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jenica-atwin-joining-the-liberals-1.6060501

What a silly reason to have this tension in a party.  Israel barely even cares what Canada's position on their airstrikes is, they'll do it anyways.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on June 12, 2021, 10:39:25 am
Green’s new leadership is completely inadequate
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2021, 11:25:24 am
timed in association with Alberta municipal elections to be held this fall, Alberta's UCP/Kenney brought in legislation to also allow Albertans to, once again, vote to nominate candidates for Senate appointment - currently there are 2 vacant Alberta Senate positions. To date, Alberta is the only province to hold elections to nominate candidates for Senate appointment (previous related legislation expired in 2016)... in total over time, Alberta has had 5 of it's elected/nominated Senators appointed - 1 by PM Mulroney & 4 by PM Harper.

of course, CPC/O'Toole has jumped on the opportunity to once again push for 'elected/nominated' Senators... vowing to appoint elected/nominated Alberta senators while encouraging other provinces to take up Alberta's lead and do the same. (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1404504282657787905/pu/vid/720x720/L0G7diGaiO3KWch6.mp4?tag=12) It appears the CPC/O'Toole are a tad hesitant to resurrect the failed Harper attempt/want to introduce an elected Senate to Canada; something that would require the agreement of seven provinces representing 50% of the population to implement an elected Senate:

(https://i.imgur.com/7k2IgNd.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 16, 2021, 11:36:39 am
timed in association with Alberta municipal elections to be held this fall, Alberta's UCP/Kenney brought in legislation to also allow Albertans to, once again, vote to nominate candidates for Senate appointment - currently there are 2 vacant Alberta Senate positions. To date, Alberta is the only province to hold elections to nominate candidates for Senate appointment (previous related legislation expired in 2016)... in total over time, Alberta has had 5 of it's elected/nominated Senators appointed - 1 by PM Mulroney & 4 by PM Harper.

of course, CPC/O'Toole has jumped on the opportunity to once again push for 'elected/nominated' Senators... vowing to appoint elected/nominated Alberta senators while encouraging other provinces to take up Alberta's lead and do the same. (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1404504282657787905/pu/vid/720x720/L0G7diGaiO3KWch6.mp4?tag=12) It appears the CPC/O'Toole are a tad hesitant to resurrect the failed Harper attempt/want to introduce an elected Senate to Canada; something that would require the agreement of seven provinces representing 50% of the population to implement an elected Senate:

Do you disagree with choosing Senators based upon an election?  How is that a bad idea?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 16, 2021, 11:42:20 am
timed in association with Alberta municipal elections to be held this fall, Alberta's UCP/Kenney brought in legislation to also allow Albertans to, once again, vote to nominate candidates for Senate appointment - currently there are 2 vacant Alberta Senate positions. To date, Alberta is the only province to hold elections to nominate candidates for Senate appointment (previous related legislation expired in 2016)... in total over time, Alberta has had 5 of it's elected/nominated Senators appointed - 1 by PM Mulroney & 4 by PM Harper.

of course, CPC/O'Toole has jumped on the opportunity to once again push for 'elected/nominated' Senators... vowing to appoint elected/nominated Alberta senators while encouraging other provinces to take up Alberta's lead and do the same. (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1404504282657787905/pu/vid/720x720/L0G7diGaiO3KWch6.mp4?tag=12) It appears the CPC/O'Toole are a tad hesitant to resurrect the failed Harper attempt/want to introduce an elected Senate to Canada; something that would require the agreement of seven provinces representing 50% of the population to implement an elected Senate:

(https://i.imgur.com/7k2IgNd.png)

Why do you have a problem with provinces choosing the way their senators are appointed?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2021, 01:02:52 pm
Do you disagree with choosing Senators based upon an election?  How is that a bad idea?
Why do you have a problem with provinces choosing the way their senators are appointed?

guys, guys... even before the waldo might choose to engage on the pro's vs. con's of an elected Senate, youse guys are 'out of touch'... you're jumping ahead of just one of the fundamental issues that must still be resolved. As it stands, this "Alberta only approach" is one still subject to constitutional reckoning. For both sides that question the legitimacy of provinces holding candidate elections/nominations for Senate appointment, each side holds to existing constitutional amending formulas that they respectfully interpret to either allow, or alternatively, disallow these provincial "aspirations". Ultimately, as has occurred in regard other Senate reform attempts, it is expected the Supreme Court of Canada will need to review/rule. But why would any of this get in the way of Conservative Prime Ministers (Mulroney & Harper) hell-bent on appointing candidates nominated by the province of Alberta?

obviously when Harper's attempts to first abolish the Senate... then reform the Senate... went nowhere, this Alberta "end-around" is simply another means to attempt to, without constitutional review on its legitimacy, introduce a path towards an elected Senate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 16, 2021, 02:55:04 pm
guys, guys... even before the waldo might choose to engage on the pro's vs. con's of an elected Senate, youse guys are 'out of touch'... you're jumping ahead of just one of the fundamental issues that must still be resolved. As it stands, this "Alberta only approach" is one still subject to constitutional reckoning. For both sides that question the legitimacy of provinces holding candidate elections/nominations for Senate appointment, each side holds to existing constitutional amending formulas that they respectfully interpret to either allow, or alternatively, disallow these provincial "aspirations". Ultimately, as has occurred in regard other Senate reform attempts, it is expected the Supreme Court of Canada will need to review/rule. But why would any of this get in the way of Conservative Prime Ministers (Mulroney & Harper) hell-bent on appointing candidates nominated by the province of Alberta?

obviously when Harper's attempts to first abolish the Senate... then reform the Senate... went nowhere, this Alberta "end-around" is simply another means to attempt to, without constitutional review on its legitimacy, introduce a path towards an elected Senate.

There is absolutely nothing that says the provinces can't request senators of their choice, selected by the method of their choice. Any federal government which rejects those requests wants nothing other than to use the Senate as its own tool.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2021, 07:19:28 pm
There is absolutely nothing that says the provinces can't request senators of their choice, selected by the method of their choice. Any federal government which rejects those requests wants nothing other than to use the Senate as its own tool.

=> so confident you are! Wait now waldo, isn't a fundamental aspect of being a Senator one that presumes upon a Senator being an independent decision maker... cause, like, uhhh... elections challenge that fundamental premise as an election would link an elected/nominated Senator to a "constituency"; one making said Senator an accountable representative.

=> c'mon member wilber, given your so confident claim, given those reform proposals of the 80s/90s & given the more recent Harper Conservative failed/stalled forays into Senate reform, why have no other provinces taken up this Alberta lead? Things that make one go... hmmmmm, hey!

=> waddbout the relatively recent introduced 'independent Senate appointments process'? Assuming you're even aware of it, what's your concern(s) with it... what's your beef with it man? Why is your boy O'Foole and the CPC so against it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 16, 2021, 07:39:48 pm
=> so confident you are! Wait now waldo, isn't a fundamental aspect of being a Senator one that presumes upon a Senator being an independent decision maker... cause, like, uhhh... elections challenge that fundamental premise as an election would link an elected/nominated Senator to a "constituency"; one making said Senator an accountable representative.

=> c'mon member wilber, given your so confident claim, given those reform proposals of the 80s/90s & given the more recent Harper Conservative failed/stalled forays into Senate reform, why have no other provinces taken up this Alberta lead? Things that make one go... hmmmmm, hey!

=> waddbout the relatively recent introduced 'independent Senate appointments process'? Assuming you're even aware of it, what's your concern(s) with it... what's your beef with it man? Why is your boy O'Foole and the CPC so against it?

Ya waldo, political appointments are sure to be more independent than elected representatives. Why do we bother with elections at all. Liberals aren't interested in Senate reform, they prefer the present patronage system.

What about the "independent Senate appointments process" ? Only two of the five members will actually be from the area concerned and their recommendation is not binding on the PM. And of course it is a process cooked up by the present government without the provinces signing off on it. Lot of window dressing here. Anything but leaving it to voters.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2021, 11:25:18 pm
Quote
=> c'mon member wilber, given your so confident claim, given those reform proposals of the 80s/90s & given the more recent Harper Conservative failed/stalled forays into Senate reform, why have no other provinces taken up this Alberta lead? Things that make one go... hmmmmm, hey!

still waiting member wilber; still waiting!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2021, 11:45:50 pm
Ya waldo, political appointments are sure to be more independent than elected representatives. Why do we bother with elections at all. Liberals aren't interested in Senate reform, they prefer the present patronage system.

huh, political appointments - say what? You clearly no nothing about the Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments and its process to review/select nomination candidates! This reform undertaking is most certainly not a, as you say, "patronage system". Like I said, you clearly no nothing about it... I doubt you were even aware of it before the waldo introduced you to it, hey!

care to speak to the backgrounds/bios of the current 2 Alberta candidates putting their names forward? They make your statement about independent elected representatives a laughOutLoud moment!
=> the one is a former United Conservative Party (UCP) president... now serving as the President of the Conservative Party association in an Edmonton riding & as the Chief Financial Officer of the UCP association in another Edmonton riding. She is also described as a close-ally of Premier Jason Kenney! You did use the word independent, right?

=> the other one is described as a social activist & an "online provocateur" - a guy also known in the past as a Senate abolitionist... a guy who reinforced his want to do away with the Senate by stating he plans to be the only Senate candidate that wants to abolish the Senate! Just the kind of person you'd want to elect to the Senate, hey member wilber!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2021, 11:56:18 pm
What about the "independent Senate appointments process" ? Only two of the five members will actually be from the area concerned and their recommendation is not binding on the PM. And of course it is a process cooked up by the present government without the provinces signing off on it. Lot of window dressing here. Anything but leaving it to voters.

you're embarrassing yourself! Would you like the waldo to detail the bios of the current 3 federal members of the Advisory Board? As well as the current 2 members from Alberta? Your underlying premise is to imply a bias within the federal members... here, let the waldo offer you a teaser by showcasing the current Chair of the Advisory Board (one of 3 federal members):

(https://i.imgur.com/GoiUXEe.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 07:59:23 am
 :'(
still waiting member wilber; still waiting!

It doesn’t matter if other provinces have taken Alberta’s lead, provinces should have the right to choose how to select who represents them.

So Hugettte Labelle, a Francophone Ontarian chosen by a Quebec Prime Minister chairs a committee that selects Alberta’s senators. A committee composed of a majority of non Albertans. Plus a PM can still ignore any recommendations they make. How democratic. How Liberal.

Is it any wonder we wound up with Payette as GG.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 09:51:39 am
Wilber, we are a Monarchy. A democratically elected Senate goes against our Canadian form of government. Do you wish us to descend to the level of Americans and their shambolic system?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 17, 2021, 10:08:30 am
Wilber, we are a Monarchy. A democratically elected Senate goes against our Canadian form of government. Do you wish us to descend to the level of Americans and their shambolic system?

That’s just silly.  Democracy isn’t a bad thing.  Most places elect representatives to form a government.  And a democratic senate doesn’t make us bad like America. 

A triple ‘e’ senate might….  But that’s not what we’re talking about.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 17, 2021, 11:20:27 am
It doesn’t matter if other provinces have taken Alberta’s lead, provinces should have the right to choose how to select who represents them.

"it doesn't matter" says member wilber! Ya ya, but what does it say about the unwillingness... the dismissiveness... of all other provinces in regards a so-called 'elected Senate'? What does it say, hey!

the Supreme Court ruled on the Conservative want to change the method of selection of senators by providing for direct elections: the Court said Parliament could not unanimously amend the Constitution in instituting direct elections for senatorial positions since this constituted “a radical change in the nature of one of the component parts of Parliament.” So, again, this initiative by Alberta is nothing more than an end-around attempt to usurp the ruling of the Supreme Court of Canada! Have you no respect for the constitution member wilber?

So Hugettte Labelle, a Francophone Ontarian chosen by a Quebec Prime Minister chairs a committee that selects Alberta’s senators. A committee composed of a majority of non Albertans. Plus a PM can still ignore any recommendations they make. How democratic. How Liberal.

your desperation reeks! The Chair has impeccable credentials - iMpEcCaBlE!!! You have no foundation, no basis to slag said Chair - none!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 17, 2021, 11:35:12 am
Wilber, we are a Monarchy. A democratically elected Senate goes against our Canadian form of government. Do you wish us to descend to the level of Americans and their shambolic system?

exactly! When working as intended, that sober second thought role has significant opportunity to review and, as appropriate, improve upon the HOC intended legislation. It was never intended to have the Senate become a partisan impediment!

these 2 guys keep nattering on about democracy... the democratic vote electing/nominating Senators. Of course that's a sham as shown by the Alberta history/results where there exists no official party attachments towards selecting party aligned candidates to run for election. I emphasize "official" as the Alberta results clearly show an alignment of past elected/nominated candidates with strong/direct attachment to Conservative parties (be that Reform, PC or UCP). This is what member wilber describes as independent and democratic! Again, look no further than the short bio I provided for what is said to be one of the current leading candidates: 
Quote
=> the one is a former United Conservative Party (UCP) president... now serving as the President of the Conservative Party association in an Edmonton riding & as the Chief Financial Officer of the UCP association in another Edmonton riding. She is also described as a close-ally of Premier Jason Kenney!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 17, 2021, 12:03:18 pm
apparently... as Green Party leader Annamie Paul contends, animosity, internal discord and infighting within the Green Party is PM Trudeau's fault/doing! Apparently PM Trudeau had spare cycles while attending the G7, NATO and EU meetings this past week!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 12:22:59 pm
apparently... as Green Party leader Annamie Paul contends, animosity, internal discord and infighting within the Green Party is PM Trudeau's fault/doing! Apparently PM Trudeau had spare cycles while attending the G7, NATO and EU meetings this past week!
I liked David Common's comment on CBC after Ms. Paul's news conference. Prime minister "Trudeau didn't kidnap Ms. Atwin." I have a sense she was pushed into the Liberal fold. My sympathies go out to the Grits. I don't think she will be a good fit. The Greens are dead in the water. It's too bad. I wish Claire Martin would have run for the leadership.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 12:41:16 pm
Wilber, we are a Monarchy. A democratically elected Senate goes against our Canadian form of government. Do you wish us to descend to the level of Americans and their shambolic system?

Senators are supposed to represent their provinces, not be tools of the PMO. If it can't be reformed and that's all it's ever going to be then get rid of it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 12:42:35 pm
That’s just silly.  Democracy isn’t a bad thing.  Most places elect representatives to form a government.  And a democratic senate doesn’t make us bad like America. 

A triple ‘e’ senate might….  But that’s not what we’re talking about.
We have enough politicians in the HoC. The Senate needs to be made up of Eminent Persons who can review legislation in a non-partisan way...like that will happen.
Electing Senators is just another example of the push to erode the Monarchy, something Prime Minister Diefenbaker warned us about.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 17, 2021, 12:50:58 pm
We have enough politicians in the HoC. The Senate needs to be made up of Eminent Persons who can review legislation in a non-partisan way...like that will happen.
Electing Senators is just another example of the push to erode the Monarchy, something Prime Minister Diefenbaker warned us about.

Eroding the monarchy is a great thing to happen. 

But, the Senate, other than being a relic of the British parliamentary system (NOT the monarchy like you are suggesting), is an undemocratic institution. 

We don’t need Eminent Persons (up to now, party hacks) reviewing anything.  While Trudeau has improved the senate, it is far from democratic, which should be the goal in a democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 01:03:14 pm
exactly! When working as intended, that sober second thought role has significant opportunity to review and, as appropriate, improve upon the HOC intended legislation. It was never intended to have the Senate become a partisan impediment!

these 2 guys keep nattering on about democracy... the democratic vote electing/nominating Senators. Of course that's a sham as shown by the Alberta history/results where there exists no official party attachments towards selecting party aligned candidates to run for election. I emphasize "official" as the Alberta results clearly show an alignment of past elected/nominated candidates with strong/direct attachment to Conservative parties (be that Reform, PC or UCP). This is what member wilber describes as independent and democratic! Again, look no further than the short bio I provided for what is said to be one of the current leading candidates:

Bullshit, plenty of them have party attachments. The mere fact that they are appointed by a partisan prime minister gives them a party attachment.

The so called Independent Advisory board are government appointees, they aren't independent at all.

Aside from Labelle who had served in government under both parties, of the two other permanent members of the so called "independent" advisory committee, one is an ex Liberal staffer and the other is an ex deputy attorney general of a Liberal provincial government.  All Ontarians. No doubt the two provincial representatives will be similar choices.

This is all about control and you know it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 01:47:31 pm
The easiest and best solution is to abolish the position of Prime Minister. Because it is not a constitutional position, no amendment is required. All that is necessary is to dismiss the Prime Minister and appoint a qualified Governor General. Don't replace the PM. Government is an administrative process and ideology and partisanship are obstacles to Peace, Order and good Government.



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 01:50:52 pm
Quick trivia question. Who is Canada's longest reigning head of State?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 17, 2021, 01:54:09 pm
Bullshit, plenty of them have party attachments. The mere fact that they are appointed by a partisan prime minister gives them a party attachment.

read it again! I said there are no official formal party attachments IN ALBERTA! But, again, given the history/results in Alberta, there has clearly been a run of candidates/elected & nominated that had strong attachments to Conservative parties (again, Reform, PC and UCP party attachments).  Somehow you have the audacity to suggest/imply this Alberta only process has been democratic! Geezaz!

The so called Independent Advisory board are government appointees, they aren't independent at all.

Aside from Labelle who had served in government under both parties, of the two other permanent members of the so called "independent" advisory committee, one is an ex Liberal staffer and the other is an ex deputy attorney general of a Liberal provincial government. No doubt the two provincial representatives will be similar choices.

the waldo calls bullshyte: provide citation to support your claim OR retract it!
=> current federal members (other than the already detailed Chair):
- Melisa Blake & Francois Rolland
=> current Alberta members:
- Elizabeth Cannon & Karen MacKenzie

This is all about control and you know it.

really, hey! There are currently NO Liberal Senators; the previous Liberal Senate Caucus was not formally affiliated to or recognized by the Liberal Party. Per PM Trudeau's want/initiative, this Caucus was dissolved in 2019 and all members became 'independent'; these members either positioned formally as Independent Senators or they became a part of a newly formed non-partisan parliamentary group, the Progressive Senate Group. This was in line with the initiative bringing forward the Advisory Board for Senate Appointments. There still continues to be a formal Conservative Senate Caucus.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 02:02:45 pm
Remove the Prime Minister from the selection process. In fact, remove politicians from the election process.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 02:34:56 pm
The easiest and best solution is to abolish the position of Prime Minister. Because it is not a constitutional position, no amendment is required. All that is necessary is to dismiss the Prime Minister and appoint a qualified Governor General. Don't replace the PM. Government is an administrative process and ideology and partisanship are obstacles to Peace, Order and good Government.

Interesting thought but who would appoint that person? The position of PM is already an appointed one.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 02:38:45 pm
read it again! I said there are no official formal party attachments IN ALBERTA! But, again, given the history/results in Alberta, there has clearly been a run of candidates/elected & nominated that had strong attachments to Conservative parties (again, Reform, PC and UCP party attachments).  Somehow you have the audacity to suggest/imply this Alberta only process has been democratic! Geezaz!

the waldo calls bullshyte: provide citation to support your claim OR retract it!
=> current federal members (other than the already detailed Chair):
- Melisa Blake & Francois Rolland
=> current Alberta members:
- Elizabeth Cannon & Karen MacKenzie

really, hey! There are currently NO Liberal Senators; the previous Liberal Senate Caucus was not formally affiliated to or recognized by the Liberal Party. Per PM Trudeau's want/initiative, this Caucus was dissolved in 2019 and all members became 'independent'; these members either positioned formally as Independent Senators or they became a part of a newly formed non-partisan parliamentary group, the Progressive Senate Group. This was in line with the initiative bringing forward the Advisory Board for Senate Appointments. There still continues to be a formal Conservative Senate Caucus.

Do you honestly think that abolishing a title changes the way they think or act? That if you just call something independent it automatically becomes independent? That if you appoint a partisan individual to a position and call it independent they magically  become independent? Please.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 03:03:56 pm
Interesting thought but who would appoint that person? The position of PM is already an appointed one.
The Queen.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 17, 2021, 03:05:02 pm
Do you honestly think that abolishing a title changes the way they think or act? That if you just call something independent it automatically becomes independent? That if you appoint a partisan individual to a position and call it independent they magically  become independent? Please.

please? Thank you! Notwithstanding your underlying suspicions/claims of bias and partisanship, presumed Senate reform starts... somewhere, doing something! You farcically claim the Alberta only undertaking is "independent, non-partisan and democratic"... but to the point where you also state it doesn't matter that all other provinces aren't interested in your ridiculous posturing and Alberta's end-around attempt to ignore/negate that Supreme Court ruling I detailed.

and still waiting for your citation... or retraction - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 03:14:47 pm
please? Thank you! Notwithstanding your underlying suspicions/claims of bias and partisanship, presumed Senate reform starts... somewhere, doing something! You farcically claim the Alberta only undertaking is "independent, non-partisan and democratic"... but to the point where you also state it doesn't matter that all other provinces aren't interested in your ridiculous posturing and Alberta's end-around attempt to ignore/negate that Supreme Court ruling I detailed.

and still waiting for your citation... or retraction - yes?

So why dear waldo does the government hang onto control of who gets in the Senate like its very life depends on it? Reform hasn't started anywhere, Trudeau made a PR gesture but changed nothing.

I don't know what other provinces are interested in and nor do you care.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 17, 2021, 03:28:56 pm
So why dear waldo does the government hang onto control of who gets in the Senate like its very life depends on it? Reform hasn't started anywhere, Trudeau made a PR gesture but changed nothing.

such hyperbole! There is now a process to be followed by all parties, all Prime Ministers... there no longer is a "list" of respective party loyalists, sycophants, media darlings, etc., to be presented for appointment! And you have a problem with this? And you favour the sham that is the Alberta alternative end-around that Supreme Court ruling I detailed? Really?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 03:37:37 pm
such hyperbole! There is now a process to be followed by all parties, all Prime Ministers... there no longer is a "list" of respective party loyalists, sycophants, media darlings, etc., to be presented for appointment! And you have a problem with this? And you favour the sham that is the Alberta alternative end-around that Supreme Court ruling I detailed? Really?

Of course there are, that's why every member of the so called "Independent" Advisory Board is a Liberal appointee. There may not be an actual list but it is the PMO that will decide who is acceptable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 17, 2021, 03:46:04 pm
My Monarchial fantasy not withstanding, in spite of all the labels and little details mentioned above, the Federal Government ( Government members and opposition) works pretty well. It is generally a pretty good reflection of the electorate. We place too much emphasis on ideology. The range of action available to any government is narrow, regardless of party.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 17, 2021, 04:10:45 pm
Of course there are, that's why every member of the so called "Independent" Advisory Board is a Liberal appointee. There may not be an actual list but it is the PMO that will decide who is acceptable.

no - the PMO has nothing to do with this... you do know the difference between the PMO and the Privy Council Office, right? Members of the board are assigned as Governor in Council appointments. Geezaz member wilber, you're having a rather difficult day today, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 17, 2021, 05:02:31 pm
no - the PMO has nothing to do with this... you do know the difference between the PMO and the Privy Council Office, right? Members of the board are assigned as Governor in Council appointments. Geezaz member wilber, you're having a rather difficult day today, hey!
Twist it any way you want.
The Council members are appointed by the GOVERNMENT
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 18, 2021, 12:54:20 am
Twist it any way you want. The Council members are appointed by the GOVERNMENT

ya ya, is this you claiming there's been no Conservative parties associated with any of the past Alberta candidates selected, elected, nominated and then appointed as Alberta Senators? And this is what you purport to be as the model of a most democratic, independent and non-partisan undertaking, right? Such a model that no other provinces have recognized it - have followed it! Such a model that it does an end-around that Supreme Court of Canada ruling I detailed... apparently that fits with your kind of democracy, yes?

and... you made some rather dubious claims about the federal members of the Advisory Board for Senate Appointments - I challenged you to either cite support for your claims... or retract them! I'm still waiting.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 18, 2021, 02:10:39 am
PM Trudeau has nominated the Honourable Mahmud Jamal as the next member of the Supreme Court of Canada... replacing the retiring Justice Rosalie Abella on July 1st. Fully bilingual, Justice Jamal was appointed to the Court of Appeal for Ontario in 2019 & appeared before the Supreme Court in 35 appeals. Media is 'playing up' his being the 'first person of colour' nominated to the SCOC...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 18, 2021, 07:59:14 am
you're embarrassing yourself! Would you like the waldo to detail the bios of the current 3 federal members of the Advisory Board? As well as the current 2 members from Alberta? Your underlying premise is to imply a bias within the federal members... here, let the waldo offer you a teaser by showcasing the current Chair of the Advisory Board (one of 3 federal members):

(https://i.imgur.com/GoiUXEe.png)



Why do  we persist with this fiction that Senators somehow represent regions when they are all selected by the federal government? How a province selects its senators should be none of the federal governments damn business.

I’ll hazard a guess at why no other provinces have not  followed suit and it’s the same reason the Liberals don’t want senate reform. Any reform might infringe on the powers of premiers as well as prime ministers and they are very happy with the Senate remaining an expensive non entity.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 18, 2021, 10:32:03 am
So, are you saying you want someone like Jason Kenney, the Philosophy  Major who was kicked out of school, to chose a Senator?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 18, 2021, 12:21:17 pm
Why do  we persist with this fiction that Senators somehow represent regions when they are all selected by the federal government? How a province selects its senators should be none of the federal governments damn business.

I’ll hazard a guess at why no other provinces have not  followed suit and it’s the same reason the Liberals don’t want senate reform. Any reform might infringe on the powers of premiers as well as prime ministers and they are very happy with the Senate remaining an expensive non entity.

firstly, let's highlight you refuse to provide citation to support the statements/claims you made about the federal members of the Advisory Board.

your nattering about the federal government selecting senators is false... dated. It's quite easy to confirm/verify the backgrounds of nominated Senators put forward by the Advisory Board since it's 2016 inception - there are clearly no Mike Duffy's in that nominated list: here's an example of those nominated (with reference to any prior political attachments also shown)... and, in turn, appointed by PM Trudeau:
=> Senator Peter Harder (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/harder-peter-pc/) ... a former Chief of Staff to Conservative Joe Clark and Deputy Minister to Conservative Brian Mulroney
=> Senator Judith Keating (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/keating-judith/) ... served as Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General for the government of New Brunswick
=> Senator Tony Loffreda (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/loffreda-tony/)
=> Senator Brent Cotter (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/cotter-brent/) ...  served as the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General for the government of Saskatchewan

c'mon member wilber, have a go at the list of those persons nominated by the Advisory Board... and subsequently appointed by PM Trudeau - state any you may have concerns over - sure you can!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 18, 2021, 12:50:14 pm
firstly, let's highlight you refuse to provide citation to support the statements/claims you made about the federal members of the Advisory Board.

your nattering about the federal government selecting senators is false... dated. It's quite easy to confirm/verify the backgrounds of nominated Senators put forward by the Advisory Board since it's 2016 inception - there are clearly no Mike Duffy's in that nominated list: here's an example of those nominated (with reference to any prior political attachments also shown)... and, in turn, appointed by PM Trudeau:
=> Senator Peter Harder (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/harder-peter-pc/) ... a former Chief of Staff to Conservative Joe Clark and Deputy Minister to Conservative Brian Mulroney
=> Senator Judith Keating (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/keating-judith/) ... served as Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General for the government of New Brunswick
=> Senator Tony Loffreda (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/loffreda-tony/)
=> Senator Brent Cotter (https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/cotter-brent/) ...  served as the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General for the government of Saskatchewan

c'mon member wilber, have a go at the list of those persons nominated by the Advisory Board... and subsequently appointed by PM Trudeau - state any you may have concerns over - sure you can!

If it is so great, why aren't its recommendations binding on the PM?

The advisory board is still made up of a majority of Ontarians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 18, 2021, 01:08:18 pm
So, are you saying you want someone like Jason Kenney, the Philosophy  Major who was kicked out of school, to chose a Senator?

Who said anything about Premiers selecting senators?   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 18, 2021, 01:10:59 pm
So, are you saying you want someone like Jason Kenney, the Philosophy  Major who was kicked out of school, to chose a Senator?

No, the electorate chooses.
Whether you like the idea of elected senators is really not relevant. If senators are supposed to represent regions, they should be picked by the people who live there, regardless of what system they decide to use. Any candidates selected by a committee should be approved by the people of that province, not a prime minister.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 18, 2021, 01:44:04 pm
If it is so great, why aren't its recommendations binding on the PM?

The advisory board is still made up of a majority of Ontarians.

good to read you can't find anything of concern in regards the nominations put forward by the Advisory Board. Can you show a single instance where PM Trudeau has not appointed a recommended nomination as put forward by the Advisory Board... a single instance... just one?

and again, you refuse to provide citation to support your fantastical claims concerning the 2 federal members of the board - still waiting member wilber, still waiting!

as for your latest claim that, as you say, the board is made up of a majority of Ontarians... that is also a lie falsehood! Separate from the chair, of the current 2 federal members of the board... one is from Alberta/Fort McMurray & the other is from Quebec. Try again, try harder!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 18, 2021, 01:58:34 pm
member wilber, setting aside the issue of term limits for Senators (which is needed rather than relying upon fixed retirement at age 75), those past Alberta "elected" Senators appointed by Conservative Prime Ministers to the Senate are not accountable to anyone... they aren't required to run for re-election... so get off your high-horse about "democracy in action"!

clearly, holding elections for an unelected position is pure & simple political posturing - nothing more, nothing less! This is simply yet another opportunity for Alberta Premier Jason Kenney (and now also O'Foole since he stated he would appoint those "elected" in Alberta"... in his dreams of being elected PM) to tell Albertans that Ottawa isn’t listening to their concerns - absolute & purposeful divisiveness at play!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 18, 2021, 02:01:44 pm
good to read you can't find anything of concern in regards the nominations put forward by the Advisory Board. Can you show a single instance where PM Trudeau has not appointed a recommended nomination as put forward by the Advisory Board... a single instance... just one?

and again, you refuse to provide citation to support your fantastical claims concerning the 2 federal members of the board - still waiting member wilber, still waiting!

as for your latest claim that, as you say, the board is made up of a majority of Ontarians... that is also a lie falsehood! Separate from the chair, of the current 2 federal members of the board... one is from Alberta/Fort McMurray & the other is from Quebec. Try again, try harder!

Two from Ontario, one from Quebec.

So why does a PM need a veto?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 18, 2021, 02:06:57 pm
No, the electorate chooses.
Whether you like the idea of elected senators is really not relevant. If senators are supposed to represent regions, they should be picked by the people who live there, regardless of what system they decide to use. Any candidates selected by a committee should be approved by the people of that province, not a prime minister.
If Senators are elected, they will just be politicians. We already have 338 politicians in the HoC.
Why are you so hostile toward Canadians who live in Ontario?  A Canadian is a Canadian. Canadians living in Alberta are no different than Canadians living in Ontario.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 18, 2021, 02:07:17 pm
Two from Ontario, one from Quebec.

citation request!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 18, 2021, 02:10:41 pm
Two from Ontario, one from Quebec.

So why does a PM need a veto?
The PM has no constitutional authority to appoint or veto Senate appointments. Only his boss has that authority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 18, 2021, 08:45:14 pm
citation request!

Liberal twitter spinmasters.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 18, 2021, 10:20:13 pm
The PM has no constitutional authority to appoint or veto Senate appointments. Only his boss has that authority.


Quote
Mandate
1 The Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments (“Advisory Board”) is an independent and non-partisan body whose mandate is to provide non-binding merit-based recommendations to the Prime Minister on Senate nominations.


Quote
Recommendations
5 In accordance with the terms of this mandate, the Advisory Board must provide to the Prime Minister for his consideration, within the time period set by the Prime Minister upon the convening of the Advisory Board, a list of five qualified candidates for each vacancy in the Senate with respect to each province or territory for which there is a vacancy or anticipated vacancy and for which the Advisory Board has been convened. The Prime Minister may take into consideration all of the qualified candidates with respect to all vacancies for that province or territory.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 18, 2021, 11:57:15 pm
If Senators are elected, they will just be politicians. We already have 338 politicians in the HoC. Why are you so hostile toward Canadians who live in Ontario?  A Canadian is a Canadian. Canadians living in Alberta are no different than Canadians living in Ontario.

your points are legitimate... valid - they reflect directly upon comments in prior posts. But somehow, without offering a single word about your post, that jagoff member squiggy tagged your post as Dumb! If only the weaselly, cowardly, azzhole had a brain!

yes, Canada does not need another American style elected Senate to roadblock passage of government legislation. I went to the trouble of providing examples (4) of recent Senate appointments as recommended by the Advisory Board (full detailed bios linked to)... of course member wilber ignored them. He's also gone mute when I challenged him to bring forward any concerns he has with Advisory Board recommendations since its 2016 inception - still waiting wilber - still waiting!


Two from Ontario, one from Quebec.
citation request!

as already stated above, A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian! You've now posted false information (at least twice) about the current federal members of the Advisory Board. In both separate instances, I've asked you to cite reference to support your statements/claims... still waiting member wilber, still waiting! Or do you just plan to continue making shyte up with abandon?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 19, 2021, 04:17:19 pm
clearly, holding elections for an unelected position is pure & simple political posturing - nothing more, nothing less! This is simply yet another opportunity for Alberta Premier Jason Kenney (and now also O'Foole since he stated he would appoint those "elected" in Alberta"... in his dreams of being elected PM) to tell Albertans that Ottawa isn’t listening to their concerns - absolute & purposeful divisiveness at play!

... care to speak to the backgrounds/bios of the current 2 Alberta candidates putting their names forward? They make your statement about independent elected representatives a laughOutLoud moment!
=> the one is a former United Conservative Party (UCP) president... now serving as the President of the Conservative Party association in an Edmonton riding & as the Chief Financial Officer of the UCP association in another Edmonton riding. She is also described as a close-ally of Premier Jason Kenney! You did use the word independent, right?

=> the other one is described as a social activist & an "online provocateur" - a guy also known in the past as a Senate abolitionist... a guy who reinforced his want to do away with the Senate by stating he plans to be the only Senate candidate that wants to abolish the Senate! Just the kind of person you'd want to elect to the Senate, hey member wilber!

well, of course, Alberta Premier Kenney is setting the divisive table... and a great photo of the described leading senate election candidate, Erika Barootes - her described, "happy place": again, former United Conservative Party (UCP) president... now serving as the President of the Conservative Party association in an Edmonton riding & as the Chief Financial Officer of the UCP association in another Edmonton riding - described as a close-ally of Premier Jason Kenney! What member wilber refers to as an independent candidate! Yeesh!

(https://i.imgur.com/xtSV4SA.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 19, 2021, 06:10:22 pm
Waldo is quoting himself now. The fact remains that Quebec and Ontario can determine who be comes a Canadian senator regardless of what region or province they allegedly represent.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 19, 2021, 08:09:21 pm
Waldo is quoting himself now. The fact remains that Quebec and Ontario can determine who be comes a Canadian senator regardless of what region or province they allegedly represent.
...and who cares? Ontarians are no different than any other Canadians. A Senator's task is to examine legislation to ensure it is good legislation. Where a Member is from is not that important.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 19, 2021, 11:04:07 pm
...and who cares? Ontarians are no different than any other Canadians. A Senator's task is to examine legislation to ensure it is good legislation. Where a Member is from is not that important.

The Constitution specifies where they represent, so I guess it’s somewhat important ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 19, 2021, 11:10:27 pm
The Constitution specifies where they represent, so I guess it’s somewhat important ?
And they are appointed from the Provinces they represent. What's the problem?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2021, 11:36:09 am
The fact remains that Quebec and Ontario can determine who be comes a Canadian senator regardless of what region or province they allegedly represent.

no trolling one! The provinces of Quebec and Ontario, or any other province for that matter, do not nominate candidate Senators for appointment!

you continue to refuse to provide citation support for the factually inaccurate statements you made about the permanent members of the Advisory Board.

I do believe the waldo has now realized why you refuse to accept that one of the permanent members has a 3 decade+ attachment to Alberta... whether that's her high-school or post-secondary education in Alberta, or as the many times over councillor and mayor of Fort McMurray & region. But... oh my, she was born in Quebec - hence your above statement. By this most questionable member wilber "logic", where does that position the carpetbagging Premier Jason Kenney - born in Oakville, Ontario?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2021, 12:07:00 pm
And they are appointed from the Provinces they represent. What's the problem?

They are not appointed by the provinces they allegedly represent. That's the problem.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2021, 12:11:45 pm

If anything, there should be one federal member per region. This would still weigh in Quebec and Ontario's favour as they are the only two provinces that are regions on their own.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2021, 12:26:52 pm
They are not appointed by the provinces they allegedly represent. That's the problem.

I provided you examples of 4 Senators appointed... as nominated by the Advisory Board. I asked if you had any concerns with those 4 (now) Senators... I further challenged you to look at the complete list of Advisory Board nominations (since its 2016 inception) and state any concerns you might have with those. You choose to ignore this ask/challenge in favour of your ridiculous hyperbole and conspiratorial nonsense implying bias exists.

you claim a "problem" yet, again, NO other provinces have taken up the "Alberta model"... so, apparently, there must be no problems for anyone other than Alberta's Kenney/UCP government - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2021, 12:31:46 pm
I provided you examples of 4 Senators appointed... as nominated by the Advisory Board. I asked if you had any concerns with those 4 (now) Senators... I further challenged you to look at the complete list of Advisory Board nominations (since its 2016 inception) and state any concerns you might have with those. You choose to ignore this ask/challenge in favour of your ridiculous hyperbole and conspiratorial nonsense implying bias exists.

you claim a "problem" yet, again, NO other provinces have taken up the "Alberta model"... so, apparently, there must be no problems for anyone other than Alberta's Kenney/UCP government - yes?

One more time. It doesn't matter who they are, the people they allegedly represent have no say in their selection.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2021, 12:44:19 pm
One more time. It doesn't matter who they are, the people they allegedly represent have no say in their selection.

one more time - no official political party campaigning or nominating exists within the Alberta model... but, per history and results we see a most unofficial attachment of nominees to Conservative parties (again, Reform, PC, UCP). Effectively, the populace of Alberta has had no say in the past candidate nominations put forward. For all intents and purposes, the ballot boxes were stuffed with the names of persons with strong ties to Conservative parties. Apparently your kind of independent, non-partisan process! As you say, "allegedly representing" the full complement of the Alberta populace... uhhh, so long as that populace aligns with Conservative ideology - amirite?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2021, 01:34:38 pm
one more time - no official political party campaigning or nominating exists within the Alberta model... but, per history and results we see a most unofficial attachment of nominees to Conservative parties (again, Reform, PC, UCP). Effectively, the populace of Alberta has had no say in the past candidate nominations put forward. For all intents and purposes, the ballot boxes were stuffed with the names of persons with strong ties to Conservative parties. Apparently your kind of independent, non-partisan process! As you say, "allegedly representing" the full complement of the Alberta populace... uhhh, so long as that populace aligns with Conservative ideology - amirite?

So what? All the members of the advisory committee are appointed by the GG on the recommendation of the PM, including the provincial members. In other words, the PM has total control over who is appointed to the committee and whether their recommendations are accepted. Spin it any way you want waldo, ultimately the PM has total control of the process.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2021, 02:02:04 pm
Spin it any way you want waldo, ultimately the PM has total control of the process.

ya, see the Constitution! Your boy Harper wanted unconstitutional reforms - what happened there, hey!

one of the mandates given to the Advisory Board as a part of its review of candidates to be selected for nomination, 'by merit based criteria', is that the selections must not include any persons with political party association/attachment... which runs counter to the Alberta process - amirite?

well, of course, Alberta Premier Kenney is setting the divisive table... and a great photo of the described leading senate election candidate, Erika Barootes - her described, "happy place": again, former United Conservative Party (UCP) president... now serving as the President of the Conservative Party association in an Edmonton riding & as the Chief Financial Officer of the UCP association in another Edmonton riding - described as a close-ally of Premier Jason Kenney! What member wilber refers to as an independent candidate! Yeesh!

(https://i.imgur.com/xtSV4SA.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2021, 02:08:06 pm
ya, see the Constitution! Your boy Harper wanted unconstitutional reforms - what happened there, hey!

one of the mandates given to the Advisory Board as a part of its review of candidates to be selected for nomination, 'by merit based criteria', is that the selections must not include any persons with political party association/attachment... which runs counter to the Alberta process - amirite?

The PM still has complete control.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2021, 04:33:47 pm
The PM still has complete control.

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board nominations arrived at following an open, arm’s length and merit-based nomination process

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board being tasked with assessing identified nominees and/or direct applicants realized through either the Advisory Board working with provincial organizations to identify nominees for consideration or where qualified Canadians may apply directly for consideration

you mean aside from that, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 20, 2021, 04:43:33 pm
They are not appointed by the provinces they allegedly represent. That's the problem.

It’s federal….  They don’t need to be appointed by the provinces to represent provinces. 

I think it’s more important that they are democratically elected.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2021, 05:55:56 pm
=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board nominations arrived at following an open, arm’s length and merit-based nomination process

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board being tasked with assessing identified nominees and/or direct applicants realized through either the Advisory Board working with provincial organizations to identify nominees for consideration or where qualified Canadians may apply directly for consideration

you mean aside from that, hey!

You mean the advisory board who’s members are selected by the PM? That advisory board?”
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 20, 2021, 06:47:45 pm
You mean the advisory board who’s members are selected by the PM? That advisory board?”
Why shouldn't they be selected by the PM? He is good enough to be Head of Government so why should he not have input into the selection process?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 20, 2021, 06:59:07 pm
Why shouldn't they be selected by the PM? He is good enough to be Head of Government so why should he not have input into the selection process?

Why shouldn’t they be elected?  The voters are good enough to choose the House of Commons, so why not have input into their Senators?

Isn’t this a democracy?  Why should we be governed by appointees?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 20, 2021, 11:09:09 pm
An elected Senate would make it more political and intrude on the authority of the Crown. It would be one more step towards creeping republicanism.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 20, 2021, 11:35:53 pm
An elected Senate would make it more political and intrude on the authority of the Crown. It would be one more step towards creeping republicanism.

What’s wrong with a republic?  WHat makes a monarchy better than a democracy?

How would it be more political than party-appointed Senators?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 12:23:03 am
An elected Senate would make it more political and intrude on the authority of the Crown. It would be one more step towards creeping republicanism.

Australian states elect their senators using a PR system. Each state has 12 senators and their constitution says them must be directly chosen by the people of that state.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 21, 2021, 08:51:33 am
The PM still has complete control.

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board nominations arrived at following an open, arm’s length and merit-based nomination process

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board being tasked with assessing identified nominees and/or direct applicants realized through either the Advisory Board working with provincial organizations to identify nominees for consideration or where qualified Canadians may apply directly for consideration

you mean aside from that, hey!

You mean the advisory board who’s members are selected by the PM? That advisory board?”

no... that would be your self-serving, agenda driven, imagined Advisory Board! Reality has the Advisory Board members as Governor in Council appointments made pursuant to paragraph 127.1(1)(c) of the Public Service Employment Act as special advisers to the Prime Minister --- a Governor in Council ( GIC ) appointment is one made by the Governor General, on the advice of the Queen's Privy Council of Canada as supported by the Privy Council Office.

so... your ridiculous statement that, as you said, "the PM still has complete control"... that member wilber statement has been busted - big time!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 21, 2021, 09:10:01 am
Australian states elect their senators using a PR system. Each state has 12 senators and their constitution says them must be directly chosen by the people of that state.

by Australian Constitution... now do Canada, hey!

and somehow... there are long-standing calls to abolish and/or reform the Australian Senate - go figure! Just one of the many concerns raised is that all states elect the same number of Senators; eg. Tasmania (population ~500,000), elects the same number of Senators as New South Wales (population of over 8 million).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 21, 2021, 09:21:22 am
What’s wrong with a republic?  WHat makes a monarchy better than a democracy?

How would it be more political than party-appointed Senators?
So you would rather be ruled by a President Trump or Putin? Lets say you are Prime Minister and you need someone like Professor Suzuki to be Minister of Science. While Dr. Suzuki is a brilliant mind, he probably could not get elected. Appoint him to the Senate and bob's your uncle, you have a highly qualified Minister of Science and Technology. We have have many eminent persons in the Senate. Eugene Forsey, Michael Pitfield, Murray Sinclair...and if I had had my coffee, I could probably come up with a 100 more. When you compare the members of the current Senate with the elected members of the Commons, you have to admit the Senators come out on top. They can review legislation without having to consider how it is going to affect their personal future instead of the merits. It is why we give faculty at universities tenure.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 09:31:49 am
by Australian Constitution... now do Canada, hey!

and somehow... there are long-standing calls to abolish and/or reform the Australian Senate - go figure! Just one of the many concerns raised is that all states elect the same number of Senators; eg. Tasmania (population ~500,000), elects the same number of Senators as New South Wales (population of over 8 million).

There are long standing calls to abolish and/or reform the Canadian Senate. At least the Australians choose their own senators.

We don’t need to amend the constitution to change the way we select senators.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 09:35:17 am
=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board nominations arrived at following an open, arm’s length and merit-based nomination process

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board being tasked with assessing identified nominees and/or direct applicants realized through either the Advisory Board working with provincial organizations to identify nominees for consideration or where qualified Canadians may apply directly for consideration

you mean aside from that, hey!

no... that would be your self-serving, agenda driven, imagined Advisory Board! Reality has the Advisory Board members as Governor in Council appointments made pursuant to paragraph 127.1(1)(c) of the Public Service Employment Act as special advisers to the Prime Minister --- a Governor in Council ( GIC ) appointment is one made by the Governor General, on the advice of the Queen's Privy Council of Canada as supported by the Privy Council Office.

so... your ridiculous statement that, as you said, "the PM still has complete control"... that member wilber statement has been busted - big time!

Doesn’t matter, the PM chooses who sits on the board and can ignore any recommendations if they choose. Nothing is binding on the PM.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 21, 2021, 09:39:56 am
Doesn’t matter, the PM chooses who sits on the board and can ignore any recommendations if they choose. Nothing is binding on the PM.

will you for the first time in this thread... after many, many requests made to you... cite something,cite  anything that supports your claim that the PM chooses the members of the Advisory Board. Waiting, waiting, waiting...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 21, 2021, 09:45:34 am
We don’t need to amend the constitution to change the way we select senators.

if the Alberta end-around is followed... but wait, that assumes the PM would accept (then appoint) the Alberta "elected" nominees. This being the same PM you perpetually vilify throughout this thread over, wait for it, "control measures". I guess you likee certain aspects of control - yes?

and again, NO OTHER PROVINCE has taken up your much vaunted Alberta model... have you explained why yet?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 21, 2021, 10:17:41 am
Is leaving the choice up to Albertans a wise idea? These are the voters who put a moron who got kicked out of Philosophy into the office. I know I am probably contradicting myself but you have to admit, Kenney is the epitome of the worst kind of politician. He is alleged to have cheated to get the leadership. I'll take an appointed Senator over a bozo like him any day.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 21, 2021, 10:34:34 am
So you would rather be ruled by a President Trump or Putin? Lets say you are Prime Minister and you need someone like Professor Suzuki to be Minister of Science. While Dr. Suzuki is a brilliant mind, he probably could not get elected. Appoint him to the Senate and bob's your uncle, you have a highly qualified Minister of Science and Technology. We have have many eminent persons in the Senate. Eugene Forsey, Michael Pitfield, Murray Sinclair...and if I had had my coffee, I could probably come up with a 100 more. When you compare the members of the current Senate with the elected members of the Commons, you have to admit the Senators come out on top. They can review legislation without having to consider how it is going to affect their personal future instead of the merits. It is why we give faculty at universities tenure.

Putin?   LOL

Ok then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 11:32:56 am
will you for the first time in this thread... after many, many requests made to you... cite something,cite  anything that supports your claim that the PM chooses the members of the Advisory Board. Waiting, waiting, waiting...

The members are picked by the Governor in Council who is picked by the Cabinet. The PM chooses from the list given to him by the committee, although he is not required to do so.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 11:35:29 am
Is leaving the choice up to Albertans a wise idea? These are the voters who put a moron who got kicked out of Philosophy into the office. I know I am probably contradicting myself but you have to admit, Kenney is the epitome of the worst kind of politician. He is alleged to have cheated to get the leadership. I'll take an appointed Senator over a bozo like him any day.

Shouldn't that be up to Albertans? Personally I think assigning provincial representation to anyone is a farce when they are being selected by the federal government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 21, 2021, 12:05:55 pm
The members are picked by the Governor in Council who is picked by the Cabinet. The PM chooses from the list given to him by the committee, although he is not required to do so.

waldo schooling continues: the Privy Council Cabinet... not the governing party cabinet!!! And again, the Advisory Board federal members are Governor in Council appointments made pursuant to paragraph 127.1(1)(c) of the Public Service Employment Act as special advisers to the Prime Minister --- a Governor in Council ( GIC ) appointment is one made by the Governor General, on the advice of the Queen's Privy Council of Canada as supported by the Privy Council Office.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 21, 2021, 12:07:07 pm
still waiting member wilber, still waiting!

and again, NO OTHER PROVINCE has taken up your much vaunted Alberta model... have you explained why yet?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 12:33:35 pm
waldo schooling continues: the Privy Council Cabinet... not the governing party cabinet!!! And again, the Advisory Board federal members are Governor in Council appointments made pursuant to paragraph 127.1(1)(c) of the Public Service Employment Act as special advisers to the Prime Minister --- a Governor in Council ( GIC ) appointment is one made by the Governor General, on the advice of the Queen's Privy Council of Canada as supported by the Privy Council Office.

Privy Council members are appointed on the advice of the PM.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 21, 2021, 01:26:53 pm
still waiting member wilber, still waiting!

Keep waiting waldo, provinces don't get to dictate to other provinces how they choose their representatives..
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on June 22, 2021, 08:46:10 am
Why do you two care? The Senate works well. What is the problem? Wilber, you talk about Alberta like it is a different country. Yes, they have an uneducated Premier of dubious integrity, but BC had WAC Bennett for 20 years, but we are all one country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 22, 2021, 11:09:32 am
So you would rather be ruled by a President Trump or Putin? Lets say you are Prime Minister and you need someone like Professor Suzuki to be Minister of Science. While Dr. Suzuki is a brilliant mind, he probably could not get elected. Appoint him to the Senate and bob's your uncle, you have a highly qualified Minister of Science and Technology. We have have many eminent persons in the Senate. Eugene Forsey, Michael Pitfield, Murray Sinclair...and if I had had my coffee, I could probably come up with a 100 more. When you compare the members of the current Senate with the elected members of the Commons, you have to admit the Senators come out on top. They can review legislation without having to consider how it is going to affect their personal future instead of the merits. It is why we give faculty at universities tenure.

of course what's key is that the complement of new Senate appointments as nominated by the Advisory Board since its 2016 inception has realized exactly what you describe... eminent and highly qualified persons working at committee level to review and, where possible/appropriate, amend HOC legislation for eventual return to the HOC. Again, I've received not word one from member wilber in regards the 4 examples I provided of Senators appointed as nominated by the Advisory Board... nor has he bothered to review and express whether he has any concerns with the many other Senators also appointed as nominated by the Advisory Board - he's simply chosen to ignore this facet of Senate reform that works and results in improved legislation.

I note the simpering, wimpering, weaselly coward member squiggy tagged your post as 'DUMB' without saying why... such a weaselly coward!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 22, 2021, 11:21:37 am
provinces don't get to dictate to other provinces how they choose their representatives.

only in your fevered agenda-driven view does this occur! You continue to fail by attempting to associate individuals to their province of birth... regardless if, for example as applies to one of the federal Advisory Board members, that individual has lived in a different province from her birth province for over 3 decades in time. Somehow, following your "logic", you managed to ignore my question in regards the carpetbagging Jason Kenney... here, ignore it again, hey!:


The fact remains that Quebec and Ontario can determine who be comes a Canadian senator regardless of what region or province they allegedly represent.

no trolling one! The provinces of Quebec and Ontario, or any other province for that matter, do not nominate candidate Senators for appointment!

you continue to refuse to provide citation support for the factually inaccurate statements you made about the permanent members of the Advisory Board.

I do believe the waldo has now realized why you refuse to accept that one of the permanent members has a 3 decade+ attachment to Alberta... whether that's her high-school or post-secondary education in Alberta, or as the many times over councillor and mayor of Fort McMurray & region. But... oh my, she was born in Quebec - hence your above statement. By this most questionable member wilber "logic", where does that position the carpetbagging Premier Jason Kenney - born in Oakville, Ontario?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2021, 11:40:54 am
Face it waldo, all roads to the Senate pass through the PM.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 22, 2021, 11:48:35 am
Face it waldo, all roads to the Senate pass through the PM.

no! Face it member wilber, you refuse to acknowledge... to accept that this Advisory Board Senate reform works and is a most significant improvement in how Senators have been reviewed, selected, nominated and ultimately appointed to the Senate.

you kept nattering on about Alberta's supposed "democracy in action"... which, in reality, by historical Alberta process/results has been one of the farthest things from an actual independent, non-partisan, democratic undertaking. That's the facts, Jack!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2021, 12:28:49 pm
no! Face it member wilber, you refuse to acknowledge... to accept that this Advisory Board Senate reform works and is a most significant improvement in how Senators have been reviewed, selected, nominated and ultimately appointed to the Senate.

you kept nattering on about Alberta's supposed "democracy in action"... which, in reality, by historical Alberta process/results has been one of the farthest things from an actual independent, non-partisan, democratic undertaking. That's the facts, Jack!

Never said it wasn't an improvement but the fact remains, the whole process goes through the PM one way or another.

Who says the Senate has to be independent and non partisan? There is nothing in the Constitution that requires it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 22, 2021, 01:40:03 pm
Never said it wasn't an improvement but the fact remains, the whole process goes through the PM one way or another.

"one way or another"! Jeezaz - how much wiggle room do you need? Why do you continue to negate/ignore the Senate Advisory Board reform; again:

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board nominations arrived at following an open, arm’s length and merit-based nomination process

=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board being tasked with assessing identified nominees and/or direct applicants realized through either the Advisory Board working with provincial organizations to identify nominees for consideration or where qualified Canadians may apply directly for consideration

you mean aside from that, hey!

Who says the Senate has to be independent and non partisan? There is nothing in the Constitution that requires it.

since you're now selectively drawing on the Constitution, by Constitutional convention prime ministers have the power to appoint whomever they want, assuming the qualifications are met. Of course, I've challenged you several times to state an instance where a prime minister did not accept a nomination presented; and, of course, this becomes more pointedly transparent given the nature/process of the Advisory Board reform.

you've never... NOT ONCE... presented the value add an appointed "elected" Alberta Senator brings to the Senate. Again there is no presumed accountability to claimed "regional representation" as there is no accompanying re-election requirement. Without term-limit changes an Alberta "elected" Senator could position within the Senate for 45 years... likely making your preferred dependent/partisan "elected ONLY ONCE" individual eventually out-of-step with the respective region!

again, Harper Conservatives asked the Supreme Court of Canada to rule on a proposed change to the method of the selection of senators by providing for direct elections... the SCOC ruled that Parliament could not unanimously amend the Constitution in instituting direct elections for senatorial positions since this constituted “a radical change in the nature of one of the component parts of Parliament.” Yet somehow... you're quite fine with the end-around Alberta process; one you even go further with by stating you're quite fine with a dependent/partisan result! Oh my!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 23, 2021, 01:08:47 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/5GV1ZDg.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 23, 2021, 01:59:36 pm
Conversion therapy is 100% stupid but should they be banning something between 2 consenting adults that doesn't harm anyone else?  They should ban it for people 18 and under.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 23, 2021, 02:06:09 pm
Liberals are stonewalling the release of info about why the 2 Chinese scientists were removed from the Winnipeg virus lab.

Liberals try to secretly amend the CRTC internet regulation bill, the Speaker removes the amendments.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 23, 2021, 02:48:40 pm
Liberals are stonewalling the release of info about why the 2 Chinese scientists were removed from the Winnipeg virus lab.

hey Gorgeous, did you pull those 'talking points' from the Post Millennial? Such a misinforming lacking substance/detail statement...

points in fact:
=> Liberals state the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians (NSICOP) is the appropriate, most fitting committee, to review the (redacted) documents in question.
=> NSICOP MP members have an increased security clearance that the general complement of HOC MPs do not
=> the documents in question are not for public disclosure/purview
=> the showboating, grandstanding CPC/O'Foole have "pulled" their CPC MPs from the NSICOP committee with O'Foole claiming, "the committee is now being used as a political tool by the prime minister to cover up the Winnipeg lab incident"
=> a CPC motion "demands" the head of PHAC (Iain Stewart) turn over the documents in question to the House while appearing before the house... in an effective "shaming" undertaking - a procedural measure that (as the waldo understands) hasn't been used since 1913!
=> Iain Stewart (the head of PHAC) has twice refused to comply with a Canada-China relations committee order to produce those documents, saying federal Justice officials have advised him that would be a breach of privacy laws, could interfere in an ongoing police investigation and jeopardize national security.
=> in response to a question the CPC asked of him, Iain Stewart advised the firing of the 2 Chinese scientists had nothing to do with Covid-19.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2021, 02:51:01 pm
Conversion therapy is 100% stupid but should they be banning something between 2 consenting adults that doesn't harm anyone else?  They should ban it for people 18 and under.

What’s wrong with banning harmful pseudo-therapies that claim to ‘cure’ people of ‘illnesses’ that they don’t even have. 

That’s like saying we shouldn’t ban [insert scam here] because it is between “consenting adults”. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 23, 2021, 03:06:03 pm
Liberals try to secretly amend the CRTC internet regulation bill, the Speaker removes the amendments.

no... unless you're suggesting "secret amendments" as ones voted on, accepted and passed by the related Heritage Committee - as in NOT secret!

again, points in fact:
=> the Speaker ruled the respective amendments in question be voided since they were passed by the Heritage Committee after the allotted debate period time was exceeded
=> in followup closing debate before the entire HOC, these amendments were reinstated (again, NOT secretly) and Bill C-10 was passed by the HOC (with votes received from Liberals, Bloc & NDP)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2021, 07:34:43 pm
What’s wrong with banning harmful pseudo-therapies that claim to ‘cure’ people of ‘illnesses’ that they don’t even have. 

That’s like saying we shouldn’t ban [insert scam here] because it is between “consenting adults”.

Where would it end, there are so many?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2021, 08:55:44 pm
Where would it end, there are so many?

Aren’t scams already illegal?  Fraud?  That sort of thing?

So, as far as I can tell, this is a pervasive religious ‘therapy’ that has no business in society and isn’t illegal.  It is absolutely worthy of banning.

Plus, why be in favour of banning it only for minors?  It’s not like it’s more work to just ban it outright.

Or do you believe that it has a place between “consenting adults”?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2021, 09:19:13 pm
Aren’t scams already illegal?  Fraud?  That sort of thing?

So, as far as I can tell, this is a pervasive religious ‘therapy’ that has no business in society and isn’t illegal.  It is absolutely worthy of banning.

Plus, why be in favour of banning it only for minors?  It’s not like it’s more work to just ban it outright.

Or do you believe that it has a place between “consenting adults”?

I think society should be very careful about dictating what has a place between consenting adults.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 23, 2021, 09:26:19 pm
Aren’t scams already illegal?  Fraud?  That sort of thing?

So, as far as I can tell, this is a pervasive religious ‘therapy’ that has no business in society and isn’t illegal.  It is absolutely worthy of banning.

Plus, why be in favour of banning it only for minors?  It’s not like it’s more work to just ban it outright.

Or do you believe that it has a place between “consenting adults”?

I don't care if some gay dude wants to try to cure their gayness.  As long as they have informed consent, and there's no BS scientific claims by the "therapist".  Who is the victim here?

A minor can have their parents coerce them into doing it, so it isn't often consensual.

Should we ban religious preaching that's BS?  Ban homeopathy?  Ouija boards?  Psychics?  Horoscopes?  Fortune cookies?  Home remedies?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2021, 09:51:37 pm
I think society should be very careful about dictating what has a place between consenting adults.

So you think a religious “counselor” selling snake oil is on equal footing to someone who is trying to get help for something they have been told is wrong with them? 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2021, 11:06:48 pm
So you think a religious “counselor” selling snake oil is on equal footing to someone who is trying to get help for something they have been told is wrong with them?

There are all kinds of religious and other counsellors selling snake oil. Always has been.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 25, 2021, 10:35:42 am
Liberals are stonewalling the release of info about why the 2 Chinese scientists were removed from the Winnipeg virus lab.

hey Gorgeous, did you pull those 'talking points' from the Post Millennial? Such a misinforming lacking substance/detail statement...

points in fact:
=> Liberals state the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians (NSICOP) is the appropriate, most fitting committee, to review the (redacted) documents in question.
=> NSICOP MP members have an increased security clearance that the general complement of HOC MPs do not
=> the documents in question are not for public disclosure/purview
=> the showboating, grandstanding CPC/O'Foole have "pulled" their CPC MPs from the NSICOP committee with O'Foole claiming, "the committee is now being used as a political tool by the prime minister to cover up the Winnipeg lab incident"
=> a CPC motion "demands" the head of PHAC (Iain Stewart) turn over the documents in question to the House while appearing before the house... in an effective "shaming" undertaking - a procedural measure that (as the waldo understands) hasn't been used since 1913!
=> Iain Stewart (the head of PHAC) has twice refused to comply with a Canada-China relations committee order to produce those documents, saying federal Justice officials have advised him that would be a breach of privacy laws, could interfere in an ongoing police investigation and jeopardize national security.
=> in response to a question the CPC asked of him, Iain Stewart advised the firing of the 2 Chinese scientists had nothing to do with Covid-19.

and the Genius CPC MP adds to the continued CPC misinformation... imagine the government following the law, following the 'Canada Evidence Act'... as actually brought in by the Harper Conservative government!
(https://i.imgur.com/SGCjR0J.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 27, 2021, 10:51:12 am
CPC "tough" questioning... but, apparently, no accompanying CPC answers - go figure!

(https://i.imgur.com/V1QFr7X.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 27, 2021, 07:37:03 pm
yes O'Foole... it's all about you!

Quote from: CPC leader Erin O'Foole
Is it the fact that I’m the only one running to be prime minister that’s actually proud of our country and wants it to do better?

Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
This coming Canada Day, I think we all need to pledge ourselves to doing what we can to continue that effort to make Canada better, all the while respecting and listening to those for whom it’s not yet a day of celebration.

I think all of us need to aspire and work hard to get to the point where everyone across this country will be able to celebrate fully all that this great country is and all it will be able to continue to be into the coming years, and know that if we’re going to be that, we all have more work to do, because that’s the story of Canada: always stepping up with more work to do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 01, 2021, 09:31:23 pm
and the Genius CPC MP adds to the continued CPC misinformation... imagine the government following the law, following the 'Canada Evidence Act'... as actually brought in by the Harper Conservative government!
(https://i.imgur.com/SGCjR0J.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/fGolZLK.png) ... Here's what the Qonservative Party of Canada/O'Foole "know so far" (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1410255762149064712/vid/720x720/knPBbYiK13SztSi8.mp4?tag=14)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 01, 2021, 10:08:35 pm
It's pretty obvious what happened at the lab, but I think the public needs to know why they were removed.  How revealing the vague reason of removal would hurt national security is beyond me.  All they have to say is "they broke security protocols and were engaged in espionage on behalf of a foreign government" or whatever.

I think the Liberals want to keep it hush hush for political reasons because it makes them look weak on national security, especially around an election season, and they also don't want to make China's gov PO'd.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 02, 2021, 10:40:26 am
It's pretty obvious what happened at the lab

(https://i.imgur.com/eoukm6m.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 02, 2021, 12:51:37 pm
CPC/O'Foole make a biglyTime announcement concerning "Emergency Preparedness"... one in which an accompanying news backgrounder was only sent to journalists - not made publicly available. A backgrounder that paid homage to the forever Conservative golden-idol - privatization! Cause they're experienced in this file... just look what Conservatives did by privatizing Canada's publicly owned Connaught Labs - a world leader in vaccine and drug production!

(https://i.imgur.com/3jpWT3f.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2021, 11:30:56 am
of late, CPC supporters have taken to spreading misinformation (telling porkies) about the government's efforts in regards First Nation water advisories.

the waldo calls for, just the facts Jack!

(https://i.imgur.com/3FfZxDG.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 08, 2021, 01:49:26 pm
The Liberals are set to give a one-time payment $500 in August to every senior over age 75, whether rich or poor:  https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberals-set-august-date-for-one-time-500-payment-to-seniors-aged-75-and-older-1.5500331

Can you smell an election coming?  They've got the younger votes with climate efforts and indigenous commitments and the cash they gave to many students who would otherwise be sitting on their arse, they've got the feminist initiatives to grab the female vote.  Who else do we need to kiss butts with before an election?  Oh yes the seniors!

Ok let's give everyone over age 75 $500 even if they don't need it, even if they're rich!  Forget about a one-time top-up to seniors getting guaranteed income supplement (you know, the poor seniors who could actually use the money), give it everyone old!  Because seniors not in the job market did SOOO BAD during COVID lol.  Their RRSP's certainly didn't make a killing last year! (Oh wait, they did).

The Liberals are buying votes with our own money and putting it on our credit card, and will give it out next month (you know, when COVID is over anyways & everyone is vaccinated) just in time for an election call.  What a true piece of crap the Liberals are.  A tiger never changes its stripes

And before the arse-kissing begans, here's a pre-emptive SHUT THE **** UP WALDO YOU LIBERAL ASS-LICKING ****.  Anyone who cares more about their favorite political party than ethics or the country is a TRUE PIECE OF ****.  **** you and the Liberals waldo.  Who signs your cheques you little ****?  Step on Jody's throat when one of your own whistleblows eh you dirty Liberal ****?

And the sad thing is the CPC pulled all sorts of BS too before elections.  These politicians are all power-hungry a-holes who care about their own power than the country.  The problem is this country is filled with people like the waldo.  I'm not going to vote Liberal, I'll abstain from voting before rewarding these goons with more power.

If you're over 75 and are well off, consider donating your $500 to a local homeless shelter.  There's far fewer cars on the road and pedestrians on the street this past year, I can imagine the beggars on the street are really hurting, sincerely.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 08, 2021, 02:57:46 pm
The last time these idiots gave us $300 we gave one cheque to the local food bank and the other to the Salvation Army. This is absolutely ******* ridiculous for a government borrowing 3 billion a week. These boneheads have absolutely no sense of fiscal responsibility.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 08, 2021, 03:29:37 pm
And before the arse-kissing begans, here's a pre-emptive SHUT THE **** UP WALDO YOU LIBERAL ASS-LICKING ****.  Anyone who cares more about their favorite political party than ethics or the country is a TRUE PIECE OF ****.  **** you and the Liberals waldo. 
.
If you're over 75 and are well off, consider donating your $500 to a local homeless shelter.  There's far fewer cars on the road and pedestrians on the street this past year, I can imagine the beggars on the street are really hurting, sincerely.

The last time these idiots gave us $300 we gave one cheque to the local food bank and the other to the Salvation Army. This is absolutely ******* ridiculous for a government borrowing 3 billion a week. These boneheads have absolutely no sense of fiscal responsibility.

guys, guys... most of those 75+ are your 'Old Stock' peeps - geezaz, show some compassion!

here's a thought while you're whining about eligibility: educate yourself on OAS 'clawbacks' - sure you can!

hey member wilber, I read that those $300 (tax free) payments were well received particularly given increased costs to seniors during the pandemic. As you obviously didn't need them, good on ya for donating yours, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 08, 2021, 04:56:57 pm
According to Stats Can there are 2,881,969 people age 75 and over in Canada. That's another 1.44 billion Trudeau is going to borrow to buy seniors votes. It's no wonder millennials hate boomers but Trudeau and Freeland aren't boomers, just cynical idiot Gen Xer's.

I don't mind the OAS increase because that gets clawed back above a certain income level.

Eff it, maybe we'll just put it against the tax instalments we have to give these morons if this is the kind of thing they are going to do with it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 08, 2021, 06:40:29 pm
I don't mind the OAS increase because that gets clawed back above a certain income level.

ya, like the waldo said! If only the Gorgeous member knew it would have tempered his furious vitriolic attack - ya think?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 08, 2021, 07:17:03 pm
ya, like the waldo said! If only the Gorgeous member knew it would have tempered his furious vitriolic attack - ya think?


1.44 billion to buy votes. Someone should go to jail for that, it’s theft.

I hope you are young waldo because you will be wearing that pile of debt for the rest of your life.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 08, 2021, 07:36:18 pm
The last time these idiots gave us $300 we gave one cheque to the local food bank and the other to the Salvation Army. This is absolutely ******* ridiculous for a government borrowing 3 billion a week. These boneheads have absolutely no sense of fiscal responsibility.

Good for you that's really kind of you.  We need more of that in this world.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 08, 2021, 08:01:06 pm
Good for you that's really kind of you.  We need more of that in this world.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

I wasn't being kind, I just thought it would be immoral to keep it. If shithead Justin is going to **** money away at least he should be sure it is going to people who need it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 08, 2021, 08:04:53 pm
hey member wilber, I read that those $300 (tax free) payments were well received particularly given increased costs to seniors during the pandemic. As you obviously didn't need them, good on ya for donating yours, hey!

I'm glad the rich old spunkers in the Weston family get some extra dough courtesy of our debt because the groceries they sell at the stores they own are bit more expensive.

Truly a wonderful way to create a thriving society is to make everyone government dependents.  Truly a healthy democracy is grabbing votes by bribing people with their own money.  Meanwhile our healthcare systems are a joke.  Maybe throw them some more cash before creating MASSIVE programs like childcare, not to mention pharma, or dental.  Hey Waldo?

The mental health systems in my province are in severe states of underfunding, to the point of inhumanity.  I've seen a friend suffering from terrible depression wait several months to see a psychiatrist.  THEY TOLD HIM THE WAIT WOULD BE 6 MONTHS.  And psychologists aren't covered by public health insurance, unless they work in a hospital.  So my friend was F**KED, unless they were hearing "voices in the head", which they weren't.  And a psychologist is only a therapist, they're not medical doctors  like psychiatrists are who can diagnose medical illnesses, nor can they prescribe medications.

This is the kind of government we have.  Run by incompetent careerist sociopaths.  No ethics, no honour, no humanity, for self and party over country.  Whistleblowers will be exiled.  That sweet Nunavut female MP from the NDP couldn't hack it.  She seems like a sweet girl from the north who just wanted to help her people and her country.  Guess she learned that the halls of Ottawa aren't like her tiny town in Nunavut.  They say "We're here for you women! We're here for you aboriginals!"...and yet their actions say "We don't want you Jody, we don't want you Mumilaaq".  "Get out of here you trouble-makers!".

This country is led by true pieces of garbage at every level of government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vQnzQIQn48
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 09, 2021, 11:31:30 am
Nov 2005: Liberal Social Development Minister Ken Dryden achieved his goal of obtaining early-learning and child-care deals with all 10 provinces... unfortunately this most valiant effort towards a 'national' day care system/approach was killed by Jack Layton/NDP.


July 8, 2021: Canada announces first early learning and child care agreement with the province of British Columbia --- In the recent federal budget, the Government of Canada laid out a transformative plan to build a Canada-wide, community-based system of quality early learning and child care. It committed to working with provincial, territorial, and Indigenous partners to put a system in place. Today’s historic first agreement, with British Columbia, is making this plan a reality in Canada.

The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, and the Premier of British Columbia, John Horgan, today announced an agreement that will significantly improve early learning and child care for children in the province. As part of this agreement, the Government of Canada will invest $3.2 billion over the next five years to help improve regulated early learning and child care for children under 6 years of age in British Columbia.

Under this agreement, the governments of Canada and British Columbia will work together to improve access to quality, affordable, flexible, and inclusive early learning and child care programs and services. British Columbia and Canada agree on the goal of $10 a day child care, and will work together towards achieving an average parent fee of $10 per day for all regulated child care spaces for children under 6 by the end of the five-year agreement. By the end of 2022, British Columbians will see a 50 per cent reduction in average parent fees for children under the age of 6 in regulated child care.

Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
Too many parents across the country are struggling to find affordable, high-quality child care. This agreement with British Columbia is a big step forward in establishing Canada-wide child care that will make life more affordable for families, get women back into the workforce, and drive economic growth, while giving every child in Canada, no matter where they live, the chance to achieve their potential.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 09, 2021, 11:47:52 am
Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead with those printing presses, we have an election to win.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 09, 2021, 11:54:38 am
Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead with those printing presses, we have an election to win.

governing is a serious business - debt whiners best get out of the way!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 09, 2021, 12:06:13 pm
governing is a serious business - debt whiners best get out of the way!

Getting power is a serious business, governing is secondary.

What bothers me is how blatant and cynical all this is. I'm starting to believe Trudeau would have his flunkies passing out government cheques at polling stations if it wasn't thoroughly illegal and waldo would be one of them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 10, 2021, 10:51:44 am
...passing out government cheques at polling stations if it wasn't thoroughly illegal

huh! You mean you can't do that? Before you get all sanctimonious here let the waldo refresh you on Harper Conservative antics:
=> like a real scandal - the 'In and Out' scheme involving improper election spending on the part of the Conservative Party of Canada

wait now: July 9 - Prime Minister Trudeau announces $1.3 billion for Surrey-Langley SkyTrain extension

the federal government has announced $1.3 billion to expand the Expo Line SkyTrain from Surrey to Langley. The 16 km, eight-stop extension would go from King George Station in Surrey to 203 Street in Langley. Preliminary work expected to start Tuesday; Surrey, Langley mayors delighted with announcement.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 10, 2021, 11:43:00 am


Those printing presses at the BoC will be smoking, churning out all that pork.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 10, 2021, 05:42:42 pm
wait now: July 9 - Prime Minister Trudeau announces $1.3 billion for Surrey-Langley SkyTrain extension

the federal government has announced $1.3 billion to expand the Expo Line SkyTrain from Surrey to Langley. The 16 km, eight-stop extension would go from King George Station in Surrey to 203 Street in Langley. Preliminary work expected to start Tuesday; Surrey, Langley mayors delighted with announcement.

More of Trudeau's pre-election cross-Canada giveaway tour!  Everyone's a winner!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 11, 2021, 12:17:57 am
wait now: July 9 - Prime Minister Trudeau announces $1.3 billion for Surrey-Langley SkyTrain extension

the federal government has announced $1.3 billion to expand the Expo Line SkyTrain from Surrey to Langley. The 16 km, eight-stop extension would go from King George Station in Surrey to 203 Street in Langley. Preliminary work expected to start Tuesday; Surrey, Langley mayors delighted with announcement.


Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
By investing in smart public transit projects, we’re reducing gridlock, helping more Calgarians get to and from work, creating good middle class jobs, growing the economy, and fighting climate change. As we set the course for an inclusive recovery from Covid‑19, we will keep focusing on laying the foundations for long-term, sustainable growth to create a Canada that is cleaner, more competitive, and more resilient for generations to come.

July 7 - Prime Minister Trudeau announces $1.53 billion for Calgary's CTrain Green Line Light Rail Transit extension - making good on the federal Liberal government's May 2018 commitment announced to fund Calgary’s largest ever infrastructure project.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 11, 2021, 12:43:56 am
Those printing presses at the BoC will be smoking, churning out all that pork.
More of Trudeau's pre-election cross-Canada giveaway tour!  Everyone's a winner!

the business of government business continues. As NO election call has been made, it's only malcontents, media CPC water-carriers, disgruntled Opposition members, etc., who are suggesting that PM Trudeau and cabinet members are 'campaigning on the government's dime'!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 12, 2021, 12:12:34 pm
ongoing pattern of Jugmeet/NDP continuing to take credit for the ideas/actions of others Liberals!

(https://i.imgur.com/mb5xBwM.png)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 13, 2021, 08:44:45 pm
July 8, 2021: Canada announces first early learning and child care agreement with the province of British Columbia --- In the recent federal budget, the Government of Canada laid out a transformative plan to build a Canada-wide, community-based system of quality early learning and child care. It committed to working with provincial, territorial, and Indigenous partners to put a system in place. Today’s historic first agreement, with British Columbia, is making this plan a reality in Canada.

The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, and the Premier of British Columbia, John Horgan, today announced an agreement that will significantly improve early learning and child care for children in the province. As part of this agreement, the Government of Canada will invest $3.2 billion over the next five years to help improve regulated early learning and child care for children under 6 years of age in British Columbia.

Under this agreement, the governments of Canada and British Columbia will work together to improve access to quality, affordable, flexible, and inclusive early learning and child care programs and services. British Columbia and Canada agree on the goal of $10 a day child care, and will work together towards achieving an average parent fee of $10 per day for all regulated child care spaces for children under 6 by the end of the five-year agreement. By the end of 2022, British Columbians will see a 50 per cent reduction in average parent fees for children under the age of 6 in regulated child care.


July 12: Nova Scotia child-care fees to drop to $10 a day by 2026 under new $605M deal --- New federal-provincial agreement will also reduce fees by half by the end of next year

Nova Scotia is the second province, behind British Columbia last week, to sign on to a federal offer from April that pledged $27.2 billion over five years in new spending that Ottawa aims to send to provinces to subsidize daycares. Nova Scotia Premier Iain Rankin and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau made the declaration during a press conference on Tuesday morning where $605 million in federal funding was being promised.

Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
Today’s agreement with Nova Scotia is a big step forward to making $10-a-day child care a reality across the province, and delivering much-needed support to families and communities as we build back better from the pandemic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on July 14, 2021, 12:34:36 am
Just give parents the money instead of subsidizing fees.  Buying votes, the Liberal way.

Where is this extra money for this new spending coming from Liberals?  They have no plans to ever balance any budget.  They borrow and charge it to the taxpayer to fund their election goodies to get re-elected.

With more people going to work from home post-pandemic we need childcare less than ever.  The Liberals need to be voted out, we're already never going to recover from their spending.

If Canadians re-elect them they deserve everything coming to them.  A country full of BMW owners living paycheck to paycheck.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 14, 2021, 07:49:29 am
Just give parents the money instead of subsidizing fees.  Buying votes, the Liberal way.

Where is this extra money for this new spending coming from Liberals?  They have no plans to ever balance any budget.  They borrow and charge it to the taxpayer to fund their election goodies to get re-elected.

With more people going to work from home post-pandemic we need childcare less than ever.  The Liberals need to be voted out, we're already never going to recover from their spending.

If Canadians re-elect them they deserve everything coming to them.  A country full of BMW owners living paycheck to paycheck.

It’s being printed, the BoC is buying 3 billion in government bonds every week.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 14, 2021, 11:15:42 am
(https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1628905!/fileimage/httpImage/image.png_gen/derivatives/default/chart.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 19, 2021, 01:58:28 pm
 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-border-measures-reopening-1.6107988

Oh great. Nothing on what constitutes proof of vaccination or how it will be verified and the Americans still haven't decided what they are going to do.

So much for working with other countries. I hope there is a lot missing from this article
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 23, 2021, 08:09:51 pm
July 8, 2021: Canada announces first early learning and child care agreement with the province of British Columbia

The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, and the Premier of British Columbia, John Horgan, today announced an agreement that will significantly improve early learning and child care for children in the province. As part of this agreement, the Government of Canada will invest $3.2 billion over the next five years to help improve regulated early learning and child care for children under 6 years of age in British Columbia.

July 12: Nova Scotia child-care fees to drop to $10 a day by 2026 under new $605M deal --- New federal-provincial agreement will also reduce fees by half by the end of next year

Nova Scotia is the second province, behind British Columbia last week, to sign on to a federal offer from April that pledged $27.2 billion over five years in new spending that Ottawa aims to send to provinces to subsidize daycares. Nova Scotia Premier Iain Rankin and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau made the declaration during a press conference on Tuesday morning where $605 million in federal funding was being promised.

Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
Today’s agreement with Nova Scotia is a big step forward to making $10-a-day child care a reality across the province, and delivering much-needed support to families and communities as we build back better from the pandemic.

joining British Columbia and Nova Scotia, the Yukon signs on... also today, Alberta announces the beginning of formal talks/negotiation!

(https://i.imgur.com/N0d7rjn.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 28, 2021, 07:41:19 am
July 8, 2021: Canada announces first early learning and child care agreement with the province of British Columbia

July 12: Nova Scotia child-care fees to drop to $10 a day by 2026 under new $605M deal --- New federal-provincial agreement will also reduce fees by half by the end of next year

July 23 - joining British Columbia and Nova Scotia, the Yukon signs on... also today, Alberta announces the beginning of formal talks/negotiation!

British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Yukon... and now joined by Prince Edward Island: July 27 - Ottawa, P.E.I. strike new child-care deal aiming for $10 daily fees within 3 years

Quote
The federal government and Prince Edward Island have agreed to a new funding deal that aims to reduce child-care fees on the Island to $10 per day by the end of 2024.

The funding will also cut child-care fees in half by the end of 2022 for children under six who attend regulated child-care facilities, according to the federal government.

Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
This ambitious timeline goes to show not only how dedicated P.E.I. is to making life more affordable for families, but it's also an example of how working closely with the federal government means real change happens fast.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 29, 2021, 12:18:59 am
July 8, 2021: Canada announces first early learning and child care agreement with the province of British Columbia

July 12: Nova Scotia child-care fees to drop to $10 a day by 2026 under new $605M deal --- New federal-provincial agreement will also reduce fees by half by the end of next year

July 23 - joining British Columbia and Nova Scotia, the Yukon signs on... also today, Alberta announces the beginning of formal talks/negotiation!

British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Yukon... and now joined by Prince Edward Island: July 27 - Ottawa, P.E.I. strike new child-care deal aiming for $10 daily fees within 3 years

July 28 - $10 a day child care for families in Newfoundland and Labrador

Quote
The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, and the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, Andrew Furey, today announced an agreement that will support an average parent fee of $10 a day for regulated child care spaces in the province in 2023, significantly reducing the price of child care for families. The agreement will also support critical services, including new infant, toddler, and preschool spaces and a new full day, year-round pre-kindergarten ELCC program for four-year-old children in 2023, with the goal that every one of these children in the province has access to pre-kindergarten by 2025-26, no matter where they live. The pre-kindergarten program will be regulated and operated as a not-for-profit service. In addition, the agreement will grow a strong and skilled workforce of early childhood educators, including through the creation of a wage grid and greater opportunities for professional development.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 29, 2021, 12:32:17 pm
Who says the Senate has to be independent and non partisan? There is nothing in the Constitution that requires it.

since you're now selectively drawing on the Constitution, by Constitutional convention prime ministers have the power to appoint whomever they want, assuming the qualifications are met. Of course, I've challenged you several times to state an instance where a prime minister did not accept a nomination presented; and, of course, this becomes more pointedly transparent given the nature/process of the Advisory Board reform.

you've never... NOT ONCE... presented the value add an appointed "elected" Alberta Senator brings to the Senate. Again there is no presumed accountability to claimed "regional representation" as there is no accompanying re-election requirement. Without term-limit changes an Alberta "elected" Senator could position within the Senate for 45 years... likely making your preferred dependent/partisan "elected ONLY ONCE" individual eventually out-of-step with the respective region!

again, Harper Conservatives asked the Supreme Court of Canada to rule on a proposed change to the method of the selection of senators by providing for direct elections... the SCOC ruled that Parliament could not unanimously amend the Constitution in instituting direct elections for senatorial positions since this constituted “a radical change in the nature of one of the component parts of Parliament.” Yet somehow... you're quite fine with the end-around Alberta process; one you even go further with by stating you're quite fine with a dependent/partisan result! Oh my!

don't worry Alberta Premier justVisitingJason... after this Alberta Senator appointment, there's still one vacant Alberta Senate position remaining!

(https://i.imgur.com/0CECGL7.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 29, 2021, 02:45:50 pm
The committee is supposed to give the PM five candidates for each position to choose from. Who were the other choices? This process is still entirely under the control of the Prime Minister, the provinces have no say in who supposedly represents them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on July 29, 2021, 03:18:49 pm
The committee is supposed to give the PM five candidates for each position to choose from. Who were the other choices? This process is still entirely under the control of the Prime Minister, the provinces have no say in who supposedly represents them.

What say does a province have in their MPs?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 29, 2021, 04:50:22 pm
What say does a province have in their MPs?

You better think that one over.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 29, 2021, 06:28:58 pm
...the provinces have no say in who supposedly represents them.

the same people who might choose to run in Premier Kenney's fantasy Alberta Senator "election" can also put their names forward to the Advisory Board. It's odd you accept party controlled... and influenced... MP nominations (that few citizens have any say in or knowledge of), yet you're so adamantly against an Advisory Board reviewing, selecting and nominating candidates for appointment to the Senate - go figure, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 29, 2021, 08:35:04 pm
the same people who might choose to run in Premier Kenney's fantasy Alberta Senator "election" can also put their names forward to the Advisory Board. It's odd you accept party controlled... and influenced... MP nominations (that few citizens have any say in or knowledge of), yet you're so adamantly against an Advisory Board reviewing, selecting and nominating candidates for appointment to the Senate - go figure, hey!

Only two of the five board members are from the subject province, all five are federal appointees. I'll ask again, who were the other 4 candidates given to the PM by the board? There is absolutely nothing transparent about this process and it is all under the PM's control.

If this board selects the candidates, why does the province have no say in which one is selected?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 29, 2021, 08:59:45 pm
There is absolutely nothing transparent about this process and it is all under the PM's control.

you're just recycling your ole' crapola now! Again:
=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board nominations arrived at following an open, arm’s length and merit-based nomination process

If this board selects the candidates, why does the province have no say in which one is selected?

yet more of your crapola recycling! Again, provincial organizations are consulted:
=> you mean aside from the Advisory Board being tasked with assessing identified nominees and/or direct applicants realized through either the Advisory Board working with provincial organizations to identify nominees for consideration or where qualified Canadians may apply directly for consideration.

as for your ad nauseum "ask again", see the Terms of Reference for the Advisory Board; in particular the Confidentiality section:
(https://i.imgur.com/5WtTVO4.png)

as an aside, and drawing reference to the waldo's own "ask again", since Harper had a conniption fit and eventually refused to appoint senators, PM Trudeau and the Advisory Board have been quite busy filling some 50+ vacancies (so far)... the sample size is somewhat rich for you to respond to my 'ask again": can you advise of an Advisory Board nomination that you have concerns/reservations with?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 29, 2021, 09:07:48 pm
whaaa! Alberta Premier justVisitingJason... again, stokin' the separation fires! What an azzhole!

(https://i.imgur.com/OIgJIDJ.jpg)

geezaz member wilber - there's no overt politicization going on here, right? You're perfectly fine accepting this clown-show as being representative of Kenney's posturing for a "fair deal" for Alberta in Canadian federation - right?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 29, 2021, 10:19:34 pm
It's a system that is totally in control of the Prime Minister and completely secret. You damn well know it.
The process itself was Trudeau's invention.
Provinces have zero say who becomes their senators, neither their governments or the people themselves.

All your bullshit deflection and spin doesn't change that.


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 30, 2021, 12:32:11 am
It's a system that is totally in control of the Prime Minister and completely secret. You damn well know it. The process itself was Trudeau's invention. Provinces have zero say who becomes their senators, neither their governments or the people themselves.

All your bullshit deflection and spin doesn't change that.

by design! You're barkingMad at the intended design makeup that simply aligns with the Westminster system... HOC lower chamber represents the populace, as elected; the Senate upper chamber represents the regions, as appointed.

I'd school you again on Harper's failed attempt before the Supreme Court... but you'd just continue to ignore it! Instead you're quite accepting to the partisan sham once again playing out in Alberta... yet another end-around the Supreme Court ruling! As for your attempted slam calling it "Trudeau's invention", why yes, the recent reform involving the Advisory Board is indeed one put forward by the Trudeau Liberal government... one you yourself called an improvement! Would you like your words quoted back to you on that, hey?

how grand of you to ignore my pointing out Kenney's stokin' the separation fires with this! How sad you blindly accept such overt politicization... that you're perfectly fine accepting Kenney's claim that this latest appointment is representative of Alberta's "unfair deal" in federation! Geezaz member wilber, get a grip!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 30, 2021, 09:07:28 am
The secrecy of this system makes it political. Not only do we not know who the candidates were, we don’t even know if the selected  person was one of them? We just have to take the governments word for it because the process is completely secret. That is  entirely the governments  choice and has nothing to do with the Westminster system or anything Harper or anyone else may have done in the past.


They may be worthy people but as my province has nothing to do with their selection, they don’t represent me or the province I live in, they represent the federal government that selected them. Of the five  so called “BC” senators, not one was even born in BC.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 30, 2021, 11:17:54 am
Of the five  so called “BC” senators, not one was even born in BC.

heelarious! 3 of those 5 were appointed by Prime Ministers not named Trudeau (as appointed by those PMs in 2001, 2005 & 2009)! But really, you sound so "old-stock"! You tried the same BS with one of the Advisory Board members... it didn't matter to you that the particular member had lived for 3 decades+ in Alberta, apparently you couldn't stomach that she was not born in Alberta! Again, so "old-stock" of you, hey!

but really, quit your snivelling - if its so important to you to know the 'other' names... put in an Access To Information request!

and again, why has no other province followed the stooopid Alberta end-around to circumvent that Supreme Court of Canada ruling? What makes Alberta just oh so special, hey member wilber?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 30, 2021, 11:35:16 am
heelarious! 3 of those 5 were appointed by Prime Ministers not named Trudeau (as appointed by those PMs in 2001, 2005 & 2009)! But really, you sound so "old-stock"! You tried the same BS with one of the Advisory Board members... it didn't matter to you that the particular member had lived for 3 decades+ in Alberta, apparently you couldn't stomach that she was not born in Alberta! Again, so "old-stock" of you, hey!

but really, quit your snivelling - if its so important to you to know the 'other' names... put in an Access To Information request!

and again, why has no other province followed the stooopid Alberta end-around to circumvent that Supreme Court of Canada ruling? What makes Alberta just oh so special, hey member wilber?

Stick your "old-stock" where the sun don't shine and you can stick your so called "transparency" in the same place. This government is as secretive and obstructive when it comes to openness as any in our history. The board members and the candidates are all political appointees selected at the pleasure of the PM with no public input.

It doesn't matter who appointed them but for the record, four of the five were appointed by Liberal PM's, two of them by JT. it's the fact provinces and their people have no input in the process which is secret and it is not secretive because of the Supreme Court. That is a purely political decision rooted in control.

Someone has to challenge the process because Prime Ministers will not give up control voluntarily.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on July 31, 2021, 01:29:05 pm
but really, quit your snivelling - if its so important to you to know the 'other' names... put in an Access To Information request!
Spoken like a true lickspittle. It would definitely be less insulting if you simply told anyone who's critical of your party to go **** up a rope instead of defending the lack of transparency at the heart of our governance. Its like you're saying the difference between our government and your beloved Liberals is moot.

'Freedom of information'...lol.  the whole access process should be turned 180 degrees on its head so that governments are required to request things be kept secret and out of the public's hands instead of the other way around.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 31, 2021, 05:42:29 pm
Spoken like a true lickspittle...

...instead of defending the lack of transparency at the heart of our governance.

'Freedom of information'...lol.  the whole access process should be turned 180 degrees on its head so that governments are required to request things be kept secret and out of the public's hands instead of the other way around.

spoken with the fake outrage fervour of a true anti-government rebel pirate... you're such a parody of that old salt with a peg-leg & an eye-patch! Arrrgh!

as Harper's key toady, Oakville Kenney couldn't get senate reform done when in cabinet... so instead, as Harper's anointedOne in Alberta, he continues this end-around attempt to circumvent that Supreme Court of Canada ruling. I'm shocked you have no problems with this very suspect, very partisan, very Conservative UCP influenced, "made-in-Alberta solution" - shocked I tells ya! I guess your zeal for transparency is rather selective, hey!

as an aside, I just heard the CPC leader O'Foole lie... purposely lie, in stating, (as the waldo paraphrases), "Trudeau's PMO had its hands all over this latest round of Senate appointments! Of course O'Foole was attempting to curry favour with partisan Albertan's already in the pocket of Kenney's UCP government.

the relatively new Advisory Board process nominating Senators for appointment is working very well - PM Trudeau has now appointed 57 Senators on the recommendation of the Advisory Board... putting the same challenge to you as I have to member wilber: do you have any concerns over the merit/qualifications of any of those 57 Senators appointed on the recommendation of the Advisory Board?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 31, 2021, 08:43:11 pm
spoken with the fake outrage fervour of a true anti-government rebel pirate... you're such a parody of that old salt with a peg-leg & an eye-patch! Arrrgh!

as Harper's key toady, Oakville Kenney couldn't get senate reform done when in cabinet... so instead, as Harper's anointedOne in Alberta, he continues this end-around attempt to circumvent that Supreme Court of Canada ruling. I'm shocked you have no problems with this very suspect, very partisan, very Conservative UCP influenced, "made-in-Alberta solution" - shocked I tells ya! I guess your zeal for transparency is rather selective, hey!

as an aside, I just heard the CPC leader O'Foole lie... purposely lie, in stating, (as the waldo paraphrases), "Trudeau's PMO had its hands all over this latest round of Senate appointments! Of course O'Foole was attempting to curry favour with partisan Albertan's already in the pocket of Kenney's UCP government.

the relatively new Advisory Board process nominating Senators for appointment is working very well - PM Trudeau has now appointed 57 Senators on the recommendation of the Advisory Board... putting the same challenge to you as I have to member wilber: do you have any concerns over the merit/qualifications of any of those 57 Senators appointed on the recommendation of the Advisory Board?

You have a real Kenny phobia, you should seek help.

We only have Trudeau's word for any of it because the whole process is secretive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on July 31, 2021, 09:28:16 pm
spoken with the fake outrage fervour of a true anti-government rebel pirate... you're such a parody of that old salt with a peg-leg & an eye-patch! Arrrgh!
Anti-government lol...that really underscores how I hit the nail on the head when I said you're unable to tell the difference between your party and everyone's government.

Government is humanity's only real hope that's why I'm so antithetical to the secrecy you champion - nothing destroys people's faith in government faster.


Quote
as Harper's key toady, Oakville Kenney couldn't get senate reform done when in cabinet... so instead, as Harper's anointedOne in Alberta, he continues this end-around attempt to circumvent that Supreme Court of Canada ruling. I'm shocked you have no problems with this very suspect, very partisan, very Conservative UCP influenced, "made-in-Alberta solution" - shocked I tells ya! I guess your zeal for transparency is rather selective, hey!
No, it's universal as you know perfectly well. You always remind me of your old pal Shady, when he defends the secretiveness and dishonesty our governance is steeped in, he says I'm attacking free speech.

Quote
as an aside, I just heard the CPC leader O'Foole lie... purposely lie, in stating, (as the waldo paraphrases), "Trudeau's PMO had its hands all over this latest round of Senate appointments! Of course O'Foole was attempting to curry favour with partisan Albertan's already in the pocket of Kenney's UCP government.

the relatively new Advisory Board process nominating Senators for appointment is working very well - PM Trudeau has now appointed 57 Senators on the recommendation of the Advisory Board... putting the same challenge to you as I have to member wilber: do you have any concerns over the merit/qualifications of any of those 57 Senators appointed on the recommendation of the Advisory Board?
No, I'm more concerned about the way you threw out the FOI in defence of secrecy. Like I said, it would be less insulting if you simply told your critics to ****-off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 12:12:02 am
You have a real Kenny phobia, you should seek help.

We only have Trudeau's word for any of it because the whole process is secretive.

ya, ya... right back atcha' with your PM Trudeau phobia! And good on ya for playing out yet another of your conspiracies... your stated, "Trudeau's word for any of it"! - how special. Oh my, you're such a conspiracyHound, hey!

Government is humanity's only real hope that's why I'm so antithetical to the secrecy you champion - nothing destroys people's faith in government faster.
.
No, I'm more concerned about the way you threw out the FOI in defence of secrecy. Like I said, it would be less insulting if you simply told your critics to ****-off.

c'mon guys, you keep beaking off about secrecy... notwithstanding member eyeball can't seem to focus - want's to paint lil' ole me with the broadest of brushes that has the waldo, as he states, "championing secrecy at large"! Let me once again remind you of that lil' ditty called the Privacy Act and how it applies to the Advisory Board and its process & deliberations, personal information, data, etc.. I guess your showboating... your grandstanding... clouds your understanding and respect for privacy, hey!

...see the Terms of Reference for the Advisory Board; in particular the Confidentiality section:
(https://i.imgur.com/5WtTVO4.png)

and member eyeball, now... in your latest posturing as a supposed champion of government, in Canada it's called Access To Information - your reference to FOI has you a champion of American government. /snicker
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on August 01, 2021, 01:11:31 am
Let me once again remind you of that lil' ditty called the Privacy Act and how it applies...
Privacy and secrecy are two different things Waldo - interesting how you conflate them the way you conflate  your party and our government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 01, 2021, 08:58:52 am
ya, ya... right back atcha' with your PM Trudeau phobia! And good on ya for playing out yet another of your conspiracies... your stated, "Trudeau's word for any of it"! - how special. Oh my, you're such a conspiracyHound, hey!

c'mon guys, you keep beaking off about secrecy... notwithstanding member eyeball can't seem to focus - want's to paint lil' ole me with the broadest of brushes that has the waldo, as he states, "championing secrecy at large"! Let me once again remind you of that lil' ditty called the Privacy Act and how it applies to the Advisory Board and its process & deliberations, personal information, data, etc.. I guess your showboating... your grandstanding... clouds your understanding and respect for privacy, hey!

and member eyeball, now... in your latest posturing as a supposed champion of government, in Canada it's called Access To Information - your reference to FOI has you a champion of American government. /snicker


Yes we do have to take Trudeau’s word for it because the whole process is a secret.

Privacy my ass. Giving a name is not divulging personal information or violating privacy. I guess waldo would like us to just vote for parties and fill in the winners names later.

If someone doesn’t want their name released they can decline the offer to be a candidate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 10:50:59 am
c'mon guys, you keep beaking off about secrecy... notwithstanding member eyeball can't seem to focus - want's to paint lil' ole me with the broadest of brushes that has the waldo, as he states, "championing secrecy at large"! Let me once again remind you of that lil' ditty called the Privacy Act and how it applies to the Advisory Board and its process & deliberations, personal information, data, etc.. I guess your showboating... your grandstanding... clouds your understanding and respect for privacy, hey!

...see the Terms of Reference for the Advisory Board; in particular the Confidentiality section:
(https://i.imgur.com/5WtTVO4.png)

Privacy and secrecy are two different things Waldo - interesting how you conflate them the way you conflate  your party and our government.

not surprisingly, your response is weak - very weak! In this matter of the Advisory Board process, don't hesitate to attempt to delineate your actual self-serving and agenda driven conflation of (your presumed) secrecy and personal information that is protected under the Privacy Act... please proceed Governor!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 10:57:58 am
Privacy my ass. Giving a name is not divulging personal information or violating privacy.

If someone doesn’t want their name released they can decline the offer to be a candidate.

so... now you're backpedalling, hey! Now you just want names - oh my! Perhaps you could advise what the hell having a list of names would provide you - to me it suggests you are challenging the integrity of the Advisory Board... and the PCO that supports it. Wow - your conspiracy runs strong... runs deep, hey!

just from the Advisory Board's Spring 2018 cycle... geezaz member wilber, you could chew on 3232 names! What a maroon you are!

Quote
The Advisory Board received 670 new applications during the Spring 2018 cycle. This is in addition to the 2,562 applicants who already had a valid application package on record. Therefore, a total of 3,232 applications were reviewed by the Advisory Board. The pool of applicants included a diverse slate of individuals with a wide breadth of backgrounds, skills, knowledge and experience.

Note: 180 individuals were nominated for a Senate appointment. Of this number, 60% submitted or had already submitted an application for consideration by the Advisory Board.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 11:03:38 am
Yes we do have to take Trudeau’s word for it because the whole process is a secret.

nonsense - educate yourself and save further embarrassment!

=> Report of the Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments - Permanent Process (July to November 2016) (https://www.canada.ca/en/campaign/independent-advisory-board-for-senate-appointments/report-permanent-process-july-december-2016.html)

=> Report of the Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments Winter 2017 (December 2016 - August 2017) (https://www.canada.ca/en/campaign/independent-advisory-board-for-senate-appointments/report-process-december-2016-june-2017.html)

=> Report of the Independent Advisory Board for Senate Appointments Spring 2018 (April 2018 – September 2018) (https://www.canada.ca/en/campaign/independent-advisory-board-for-senate-appointments/report-process-april-september-2018.html)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 11:47:57 am
Of the five  so called “BC” senators, not one was even born in BC.
You tried the same BS with one of the Advisory Board members... it didn't matter to you that the particular member had lived for 3 decades+ in Alberta, apparently you couldn't stomach that she was not born in Alberta! Again, so "old-stock" of you, hey!

oh my, member wilber! The waldo's crack research team advises that there is no requirement for persons running in the so-called Alberta "Senate election"... to actually be born in Alberta. Say what... this will never do, right wilber? LOL! The only attachment persons running must have is that they have lived in the Province of Alberta for a period of 6 months prior to the election. Waaaa! Just 6 months wilber! 6 months - oh my!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 01, 2021, 12:27:20 pm
oh my, member wilber! The waldo's crack research team advises that there is no requirement for persons running in the so-called Alberta "Senate election"... to actually be born in Alberta. Say what... this will never do, right wilber? LOL! The only attachment persons running must have is that they have lived in the Province of Alberta for a period of 6 months prior to the election. Waaaa! Just 6 months wilber! 6 months - oh my!

The terms of reference for this committee are all set by the government, not the courts. Naming candidates does not violate anyone's privacy as there is no obligation to be a candidate. I think the vast a majority of people would consider it an honour just to be considered.

Tell me waldo, if the candidates selected by the committee are so worthy, why does the public have no say in which one is selected? Why aren't they even allowed to know who was put up for selection? Why is it a secret decision made by the PM on his own? I'll tells ya why waldo, it is a way a PM can maintain control while avoiding responsibility. If his selection is a dud, he can always blame it on the committee.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 12:42:12 pm
... a way a PM can maintain control while avoiding responsibility. If his selection is a dud, he can always blame it on the committee.

again, same challenge you refuse to engage upon: there have now been 57 Senators appointed via the Advisory Board process - are there any... is there one - just one member wilber... that you have concerns with? The bios of every Senator are publicly available - do your best worst, hey!

clearly you know shyte about the Senate. Perhaps you could advise which group you claim PM Trudeau controls... particularly given he eliminated Liberal Party affiliation within the Senate - unlike the CPC Conservative Party that maintains a group of Conservative Senators that still caucus with CPC MPs. Which group below, hey member wilber - which group do you claim PM Trudeau is, as you say, "controlling"?

(https://i.imgur.com/PiVMsbW.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 12:54:26 pm
...why does the public have no say in which one is selected? Why aren't they even allowed to know who was put up for selection? Why is it a secret decision made by the PM on his own?

perhaps you should ask the rest of Canada that has no delusionOfAlbertaGrandeur... that recognizes the Supreme Court of Canada ruling concerning an elected Senate... that isn't attempting aMadeInAlberta end-around that SCOC ruling. Start there, hey! 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 01, 2021, 06:08:02 pm
perhaps you should ask the rest of Canada that has no delusionOfAlbertaGrandeur... that recognizes the Supreme Court of Canada ruling concerning an elected Senate... that isn't attempting aMadeInAlberta end-around that SCOC ruling. Start there, hey!

So your committee picks the candidates but you won't give the public any input into which one becomes a senator, you won't even let the public know who the candidates were. The PM has to have control. This has nothing to do with Alberta or your obsession with Kenny which is nothing more than a straw man.

You really would make us vote for parties and fill in the winners later if you could get away with it.

Star Chamber
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 01, 2021, 06:19:05 pm
So your committee picks the candidates but you won't give the public any input into which one becomes a senator, you won't even let the public know who the candidates were. The PM has to have control. This has nothing to do with Alberta or your obsession with Kenny which is nothing more than a straw man.

You really would make us vote for parties and fill in the winners later if you could get away with it.

Star Chamber

Wilber, it’s called “democracy”.  /s
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 01, 2021, 07:12:19 pm
So your committee picks the candidates but you won't give the public any input into which one becomes a senator, you won't even let the public know who the candidates were.

no - again, by design! The last thing Canada needs is yet another partisan chamber to stall out/end needed legislation - if you want that kind of failed "democracy", move to the U.S.!

by design! You're barkingMad at the intended design makeup that simply aligns with the Westminster system... HOC lower chamber represents the populace, as elected; the Senate upper chamber represents the regions, as appointed.

you scored an own-goal by admitting the new Advisory Board process is an improvement! Again, you can continue to whine/complain but the Privacy Act applies - whether you like it or not! Like I said, if you're so adamant that you just have to have "the names", put in an Access To Information request... and if you don't get the return you're after, toughTitties hey!

so when will you be moving to Alberta? Surely with such venom, such conviction, such showboating/grandstanding how can you stand to live in B.C. with those 5 appointed B.C. Senators? How are you surviving!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 01, 2021, 07:20:58 pm
Wilber, it’s called “democracy”.  /s

Well it certainly isn't democratic but even worse, it is completely secret from start to finish.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 01, 2021, 07:28:28 pm
no - again, by design! The last thing Canada needs is yet another partisan chamber to stall out/end needed legislation - if you want that kind of failed "democracy", move to the U.S.!

you scored an own-goal by admitting the new Advisory Board process is an improvement! Again, you can continue to whine/complain but the Privacy Act applies - whether you like it or not! Like I said, if you're so adamant that you just have to have "the names", put in an Access To Information request... and if you don't get the return you're after, toughTitties hey!

so when will you be moving to Alberta? Surely with such venom, such conviction, such showboating/grandstanding how can you stand to live in B.C. with those 5 appointed B.C. Senators? How are you surviving!

How is the public having a voice in choosing between the candidates put forward by your committee partisan? As it is the PM gets to choose the one which is best for his party (or least worst) because no one even knows who was put forward.  The secrecy behind this process which is under complete control of the PM ensures it will remain partisan. Show me where in the privacy act that candidates for the country's upper chamber  can never be named. Why should someone have to put in an access to information request just to find out who the candidates are for a senate position. You wave the privacy act then say put in an access of information request. Which is it? You are full of it.

Your really do have an Alberta obsession. It is very unhealthy.

I have no choice but to live with those Senators. That's the point, they represent the governments that appointed them an no one else, British Columbians had no say in the matter. It's a travesty to even call them BC Senators, they are an invention of the federal government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 02, 2021, 12:29:38 am
How is the public having a voice in choosing between the candidates put forward by your committee partisan?

oh please! Look no further than the current leading Alberta candidate who has attachments to both provincial and federal Conservative parties. Ultimately if all provinces were to elect Senators, respective parties would formally engage to select, nominate and campaign for persons belonging to their respective parties... as compared to the ultimate partisan pre-Advisory Board days when Prime Ministers appointed bagMen, party loyalists, partisan media-types, lobbyists, donors, etc..  As I said, Canada does not need a U.S. style highly partisan elected Senate... where all to often needed legislation just goes no where! That's what you're championing as you continue to beak off about supposed secrecy!

again, by (Westminster) design: the HOC lower chamber represents the populace, as elected; the Senate upper chamber represents the regions, as appointed. Although still needing improvements, we presently have a relatively well working Senate... providing that so-called 'second sober thought' to review, possibly amend and pass legislation back to the House. One key aspect of this new and improved Senate reflects upon the Advisory Board process nominations that brought forward 57 new Senators since 2016 - and PM Trudeau still has 10 vacancies yet to fill!

As it is the PM gets to choose the one which is best for his party (or least worst) because no one even knows who was put forward. The secrecy behind this process which is under complete control of the PM ensures it will remain partisan.

again, you stated the Advisory Board process is an improvement. Did you even bother to look at a report the Advisory Board puts forward... I linked you to 3 sample reports. I expect you simply ignored them so you can continue to bleat on about supposed secrecy! Again, the Privacy Act precludes naming persons who applied, who were reviewed, detailing the related deliberations therein, naming selected candidates put forward for appointment consideration, etc.. Again, your continued nattering on about secrecy is nothing more than you challenging the integrity of the Advisory Board and the supporting PCO. As I said, your fallacious conspiracy runs strong, runs deep!

Your really do have an Alberta obsession. It is very unhealthy.

sure Dr. wilber, sure! But ya, says you, a very healthy uber-Conservative fanboy!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 02, 2021, 09:21:48 am
waldo, I am merely suggesting the province being able to select a senator from the list provided by your precious advisory board but they aren’t allowed to do that. They aren’t even allowed to know who the candidates were. Suggesting that senators somehow represent provinces is laughable, their names shouldn’t even be attached to a province


This is about a PM having complete control of a process and nothing more yet you continue to babble on about partisanship and Alberta. This process just ensures that the only person able to exert partisanship into the process is the prime minister and that is obviously just fine by waldo.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 02, 2021, 12:47:36 pm
your premise is false - it presumes that the Advisory Board, an independent and non-partisan body, is nominating partisans rather than the merit-based nominees it provides to a Prime Minister. In any case, accepting to your false premise, I've corrected your post - you're welcome!

This process just ensures that the only person able to exert partisanship into the process is the prime minister and that is obviously just fine by waldo... and all provinces not named Alberta!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 02, 2021, 12:58:00 pm
your premise is false - it presumes that the Advisory Board, an independent and non-partisan body, is nominating partisans rather than the merit-based nominees it provides to a Prime Minister. In any case, accepting to your false premise, I've corrected your post - you're welcome!


Says who, the government? They are all federal appointees, including the so called provincial members. It may very well be a better system but we can never know because it is totally secret. The only reason it is secret is because the federal government wants it that way.

I don't think most provinces really care about the Senate, they know it for what it is, a totally federal creation.

The lipstick may be Couture but it is still a pig.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 02, 2021, 01:49:19 pm
I am merely suggesting the province being able to select a senator from the list provided by your precious advisory board but they aren’t allowed to do that.

oh my - member wilber channelling PM Harper! Of course your want/ask (as Harper found out) would require a Constitutional amendment; one that follows the general amending formula: that the change would need to be approved by 1) the federal Parliament, 2) the Senate, and 3) a minimum number of provincial legislatures... such that at least seven provinces approving the change must represent at least 50% of Canada's population.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 02, 2021, 01:55:04 pm
...it is secret is because the federal government wants it that way.

no - the Advisory Board process is quite transparent... save for Privacy Act associations to deliberations undertaken in reviewing the unnamed persons being evaluated, then selected for nomination. Clearly you're afraid to actually read one of the Advisory Board sample reports I linked to. But yes, please continue your conspiracy ravings - nothing makes you look quite as foolish as this!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 02, 2021, 02:21:03 pm
no - the Advisory Board process is quite transparent... save for Privacy Act associations to deliberations undertaken in reviewing the unnamed persons being evaluated, then selected for nomination. Clearly you're afraid to actually read one of the Advisory Board sample reports I linked to. But yes, please continue your conspiracy ravings - nothing makes you look quite as foolish as this!

Bullshit. There is nothing transparent about the advisory process. Once the candidates have been selected their is no reason their names can't be released.

Everything in those reports is "Persuant to our Terms of Reference", in the first sentence, which were given to the by the government. The same government who appointed them in the first place.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 02, 2021, 02:28:33 pm
Bullshit. There is nothing transparent about the advisory process. Once the candidates have been selected their is no reason {waldo: other than the Privacy Act} their names can't be released.

no - you're misinformed! Again, the process is quite transparent... save for Privacy Act associations to deliberations undertaken in reviewing the unnamed persons being evaluated, then selected for nomination.

good luck in your pursuit of that required Constitutional Amendment; again, one that follows the general amending formula: that the change would need to be approved by 1) the federal Parliament, 2) the Senate, and 3) a minimum number of provincial legislatures... such that at least seven provinces approving the change must represent at least 50% of Canada's population.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 02, 2021, 02:32:24 pm
no - you're misinformed! Again, the process is quite transparent... save for Privacy Act associations to deliberations undertaken in reviewing the unnamed persons being evaluated, then selected for nomination.

good luck in your pursuit of that required Constitutional Amendment; again, one that follows the general amending formula: that the change would need to be approved by 1) the federal Parliament, 2) the Senate, and 3) a minimum number of provincial legislatures... such that at least seven provinces approving the change must represent at least 50% of Canada's population.



Are you that effing thick?

Certainly their information is private when they are being reviewed by the committee. There is no reason their names can't be released after they have been selected.

Anyway saying these people somehow represent regions is an absolute fairy tale. Regions and provinces have zero say in the process or the selections.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2021, 09:32:25 am
Anyway saying these people somehow represent regions is an absolute fairy tale.

so... again, the only 'residency' requirement to being a candidate in the so-called Alberta "senate election", is to have lived in Alberta for the 6 months prior to the "election" - 6 months is all it takes to "represent Alberta", hey member wilber! And not an, as you say, "absolute fairy tale", right? But hey now, seeing as Harper parachuted Oakville Kenney into Alberta, that seems all-it-takes representative - amirite?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2021, 09:43:03 am
Certainly their information is private when they are being reviewed by the committee. There is no reason their names can't be released after they have been selected.

certainly, per the Privacy Act, the respective nominees for appointment can release their own names... if they so desire. But I'll ask again, what meaning, what significance is it for YOU to know said names? Oh wait, is this in line with your conspiracy theme and doubting the integrity of the Advisory Board? I'll keep asking: particularly given a fairly rich sample now with 57 (more than half) of the current Senators having been chosen, reviewed, selected, nominated and ultimately appointed through the Advisory Board process... can you name any of those 57 Senators that you have a problem with (and why)... even just one?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 03, 2021, 11:40:49 am
certainly, per the Privacy Act, the respective nominees for appointment can release their own names... if they so desire. But I'll ask again, what meaning, what significance is it for YOU to know said names? Oh wait, is this in line with your conspiracy theme and doubting the integrity of the Advisory Board? I'll keep asking: particularly given a fairly rich sample now with 57 (more than half) of the current Senators having been chosen, reviewed, selected, nominated and ultimately appointed through the Advisory Board process... can you name any of those 57 Senators that you have a problem with (and why)... even just one?

I don't know if the advisory board has any integrity or not because they are all federal government appointees and their deliberations and findings are secret. I don't have a problem with people, I have a problem with the system that appoints them. Both it and the Senate itself are nothing more than an invention of the federal government. Let's just do away with this sham of regional representation. It has never existed. Ever.

Not only were none of BC's five senators born in BC, only two of them were born in Canada. You would think that with almost 5 million people, a prime minister could find just one that was actually born in the province they represent.

But hey, a guy from Quebec must know who is best to represent the people of BC. Right?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 03, 2021, 11:53:28 am
I don't know if the advisory board has any integrity or not because they are all federal appointees and their deliberations and findings are secret. I don't have a problem with people, I have a problem with the system that appoints them. Both it and the Senate itself are nothing more than an invention of the federal government. Let's just do away with this sham of regional representation. It has never existed. Ever.

Not only were none of BC's five senators born in BC, only two of them were born in Canada. You would think that with almost 5 million people, a prime minister could find just one that was actually born in the province they represent.

But hey, a guy from Quebec must know who is best to represent the people of BC. Right?

You’re starting to sound rather rather xenophobic.

While I agree that it should be an open and democratic process, you are talking like anyone not born in BC could never represent the province.  That’s simply not the case.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 03, 2021, 12:01:21 pm
You’re starting to sound rather rather xenophobic.

While I agree that it should be an open and democratic process, you are talking like anyone not born in BC could never represent the province.  That’s simply not the case.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just pointing it out. Because a PM has complete control over the results of the process, the needs of the sitting government will always take priority over anything else. His choice will be dictated by the image the government wants to project for itself.

I'm not sure the process necessarily needs to be democratic but it does need to be open.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2021, 06:52:58 pm
Not only were none of BC's five senators born in BC, only two of them were born in Canada. You would think that with almost 5 million people, a prime minister could find just one that was actually born in the province they represent.

wait now, for that Alberta "senate election" you keep pimping out... there's no requirement for candidates to have been born in Alberta! How double-standard of you - yes?

But hey, a guy from Quebec must know who is best to represent the people of BC. Right?

or a guy, Stephen Harper, from Ontario... knowing best in who should represent the people of B.C., right?

(https://i.imgur.com/FoJc8DF.png)

Quote
You’re starting to sound rather rather xenophobic... you are talking like anyone not born in BC could never represent the province.  That’s simply not the case.

oh my, member wilber - oh my!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2021, 07:07:03 pm
Because a PM has complete control over the results of the process, the needs of the sitting government will always take priority over anything else. His choice will be dictated by the image the government wants to project for itself.

no - again, the Advisory Board "controls", (your word choice), the "results" (as you say). In the following prior post, I outlined the group makeup of the current Senate. With the current Prime Minister, for example, what, as you say, "dictated choice projects the current governments image"? As I said, there's a relatively rich sample for you to advise on - a sample of 57 Senators that PM Trudeau has now appointed following the Advisory Board process (more than half of the current complement of Senators). C'mon member wilber, you've got real data to presumably support this statement of yours - please advise, hey!

clearly you know shyte about the Senate. Perhaps you could advise which group you claim PM Trudeau controls... particularly given he eliminated Liberal Party affiliation within the Senate - unlike the CPC Conservative Party that maintains a group of Conservative Senators that still caucus with CPC MPs. Which group below, hey member wilber - which group do you claim PM Trudeau is, as you say, "controlling"?

(https://i.imgur.com/PiVMsbW.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 03, 2021, 08:19:37 pm
wait now, for that Alberta "senate election" you keep pimping out... there's no requirement for candidates to have been born in Alberta! How double-standard of you - yes?

or a guy, Stephen Harper, from Ontario... knowing best in who should represent the people of B.C., right?

(https://i.imgur.com/FoJc8DF.png)

oh my, member wilber - oh my!

An Alberta Senate election is your obsession, not mine. Harpers priorities in appointing senators would be the same as Trudeau's or any other PM. How does it get me more votes and how does it make it easier to pass legislation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2021, 08:33:09 pm
An Alberta Senate election is your obsession, not mine.

geezaz member wilber - I thought I was replying to YOUR {obsessive} posts! C'mon, don't backpedal now - continue to be loud & proud for your obsession with an elected Senate! Loud & proud!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 03, 2021, 09:46:42 pm
geezaz member wilber - I thought I was replying to YOUR {obsessive} posts! C'mon, don't backpedal now - continue to be loud & proud for your obsession with an elected Senate! Loud & proud!

The obsession with an elected Senate is all yours waldo. Accusing me of an obsession is just grasping at straws because you have no other argument.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 04, 2021, 03:06:35 am
The obsession with an elected Senate is all yours waldo. Accusing me of an obsession is just grasping at straws because you have no other argument.

some 13 pages later... after you're left with nothing but conspiracy to draw upon... after you've had your so-called "arguments" punted every which way... after your hypocrisy has been repeatedly highlighted... after you've repeatedly contradicted yourself... you're the one left to make an obsession accusation - that was YOU that did so; that was YOU, as you say, grasping at straws because you have no other argument.

and through all your blathering blusterbus, you have refused to take up the repeated challenge for you to raise any concerns you might have with any of the 57 current Senators appointed via the Advisory Board process... apparently, you can't even name one of those 57 Senators (with full bios in the public domain) that you have concerns/reservations over - while you at the same time actually stated that the process was a Senate reform improvement.

for all your ad nauseum nattering on about the, "PM Controlling everything to favour his party", you also refuse to answer the repeated request for you to qualify that claim; here, as follows one of those repeated requests posted again - don't just ignore it again member wilber!

clearly you know shyte about the Senate. Perhaps you could advise which group you claim PM Trudeau controls... particularly given he eliminated Liberal Party affiliation within the Senate - unlike the CPC Conservative Party that maintains a group of Conservative Senators that still caucus with CPC MPs. Which group below, hey member wilber - which group do you claim PM Trudeau is, as you say, "controlling"?

(https://i.imgur.com/PiVMsbW.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 04, 2021, 09:20:13 am
some 13 pages later... after you're left with nothing but conspiracy to draw upon... after you've had your so-called "arguments" punted every which way... after your hypocrisy has been repeatedly highlighted... after you've repeatedly contradicted yourself... you're the one left to make an obsession accusation - that was YOU that did so; that was YOU, as you say, grasping at straws because you have no other argument.

and through all your blathering blusterbus, you have refused to take up the repeated challenge for you to raise any concerns you might have with any of the 57 current Senators appointed via the Advisory Board process... apparently, you can't even name one of those 57 Senators (with full bios in the public domain) that you have concerns/reservations over - while you at the same time actually stated that the process was a Senate reform improvement.

for all your ad nauseum nattering on about the, "PM Controlling everything to favour his party", you also refuse to answer the repeated request for you to qualify that claim; here, as follows one of those repeated requests posted again - don't just ignore it again member wilber!

I’ve never claimed there is a conspiracy, I’ve just stated the reality. A PM has always had total control over who sits in the Senate and because the process is secret he will always choose a candidate that is the least likely to cause any problems for his party. There is nothing stopping him because the names of the candidates are secret and he can’t be held accountable. If I was PM I would and you know damn well you would too.

So he eliminated Liberal party affiliation. Big deal, he didn't eliminate politcal opinions or political philosophies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 04, 2021, 07:33:37 pm
I would even say that this is probably a better process than the patronage appointments of the past but it is still a secret process controlled by the PM.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on August 04, 2021, 08:11:14 pm
I would even say that this is probably a better process than the patronage appointments of the past but it is still a secret process controlled by the PM.
Ah but according to the waldo it's a private process controlled by the PM. That said if/when it's being controlled by O'Toole or Jagmeet then its secret.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 04, 2021, 10:54:41 pm
guys, guys, the Advisory Board presents 5 merit based nominations for appointment selection of one of those 5. I'll keep challenging you to bring forward concerns you have with any of the 57 Senators appointed via the Advisory Board process... a challenge I've put forward at least a half-dozen times now!

but hey now... here's one for you to chew on - from the bio of Senator Peter Harder; a merit based nomination from the Advisory Board:
Quote
...and soon after served as an assistant to then-minister Flora MacDonald. He then served as chief of staff to the Rt. Hon. Joe Clark, then leader of the opposition and, subsequently, the deputy prime minister in the first government of Prime Minister Brian Mulroney.

Senator Harder served as the founding executive director of the Immigration and Refugee Board. He was first appointed as deputy minister in 1991 – a role he eventually would play under five different prime ministers and 12 ministers, including in the departments of immigration, public safety, industry, the treasury board and foreign affairs.

geezaz member wilber - given his close attachments to prominent Conservatives, how could PM Trudeau ever select that guy for appointment? And yes wilber, your conspiracy theme runs strong, runs deep... you clearly doubt the integrity of the Advisory Board, its process and the value of nominations presented for appointment selection. Except, apparently, you can't even be bothered to look at any of the merit aspects of any of those 57 Senators appointed by the Advisory Board process... you're too busy with your nonsensical "PM controls it all" conspiracy!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 05, 2021, 09:01:53 am
Doesn’t matter waldo, it is still a secret process where the PM calls the shots. They could be saints or devils, it is still a secret process where the PM calls the shots. We can never judge how good it is because we can never know who the other candidates were and it is all a secret until you hear the new senator’s name.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 05, 2021, 10:17:50 am
...it is still a secret process where the PM calls the shots... it is still a secret process where the PM calls the shots. We can never judge how good it is because we can never know who the other candidates were and it is all a secret until you hear the new senator’s name.

as I've stated previously, when all you've got is to keep nattering on about a "secret process", your conspiracy theme has you doubting the integrity of the Advisory Board process and the value/worth of its merit-based nomination candidates. You've never actually qualified your continued blathering on about the "PM calls the shots" - the PM has no say in the Advisory Board process; the PM does not select potential candidates for nomination, the PM does not review and deliberate over the potential candidates, the PM does not select nominations from the potential candidates, the PM does not present the resultant 5 nominees. All the PM does in your idiotic blustering is... select one of those 5 Advisory Board presented nominations.

you backpedalled to say all you wanted/needed was a list of those names... and I've repeatedly asked you just what you would do with that list (of 4 other names)? Since you refuse to answer the requests, I can only presume you would want to do your own "due diligence" on those names... cause, per your conspiracy, you doubt the integrity of the Advisory Board process and the value/worth of its merit-based nomination candidates. Meanwhile you project the sham Alberta process as one you're quite comfortable with even though it is rife with partisan influence. You even went so far as to say/imply you're quite fine with a dependent and partisan Senate!

Who says the Senate has to be independent and non partisan? There is nothing in the Constitution that requires it.

yes, in your repeated hypocrisy and contradictory statements, on one hand you state the Advisory Board process is an improvement... and then you tout a dependent and partisan Senate - you clearly hearken back to the days when Prime Ministers appointed bagMen, party loyalists, partisan media-types, lobbyists, donors, key fundraisers, etc..  As I said, Canada does not need a U.S. style highly partisan elected Senate... where all too often needed legislation just goes no where! That's what you're championing as you continue to beak off about, "supposed secrecy & that the PM calls all the shots"!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 05, 2021, 11:32:14 am
It is a secret process and all your blathering doesn't change that. The advisory board is a creation of the federal government and all its deliberations and recommendations are secret. They supposedly give a PM five candidates they think can do the job. Do they have a favourite? Do they recommend one in particular? Does the PM follow any such recommendation? We can never know because it is all secret. Just the fact  there are five candidates and not just one recommendation is in itself proof the PM is in control. The only thing the public gets to know is the PM's choice.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 05, 2021, 12:21:00 pm
It is a secret process ... all its deliberations and recommendations are secret. They supposedly give a PM five candidates they think can do the job.

Do they have a favourite? Do they recommend one in particular? Does the PM follow any such recommendation? We can never know because it is all secret.

Just the fact  there are five candidates and not just one recommendation is in itself proof the PM is in control. The only thing the public gets to know is the PM's choice.

as I said, your conspiracy theme runs strong, runs deep! So... you want the names so YOU can do YOUR OWN deliberations... cause otherwise its a secret! LOL! Meanwhile, you've been asked a half-dozen+ times to review the names of those 57 Senators that have been appointed per the Advisory Board process and advise of any concerns you might have with them... any one of them! Apparently your nattering, blustering and blathering about secrets has you just too busy to comply with these repeated requests.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 05, 2021, 12:27:13 pm
as I said, your conspiracy theme runs strong, runs deep! So... you want the names so YOU can do YOUR OWN deliberations... cause otherwise its a secret! LOL! Meanwhile, you've been asked a half-dozen+ times to review the names of those 57 Senators that have been appointed per the Advisory Board process and advise of any concerns you might have with them... any one of them! Apparently your nattering, blustering and blathering about secrets has you just too busy to comply with these repeated requests.

I'm going to say it one last time, it is not about individuals it is about a secret process that selects them. How the hell would I or anyone else know whether they were the best choice because all the other candidates were secret, only known to the PM who makes makes his choice according to his own priorities.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 05, 2021, 12:49:25 pm
How the hell would I or anyone else know whether they were the best choice because all the other candidates were secret

again, you don't trust the process, you don't accept the Advisory Board has integrity in itself and in following the process to arrive at and present merit-based nominations. Earlier I posted stats associated with the '2018 cycle'; stats that showed there were some 3500+ candidates reviewed during that cycle. You're such a pompous ass you position yourself as the arbiter of determination and deliberation of those 3500+ candidates! Cause you're member wilber! LOL!

more on that Alberta sham: after PM Trudeau made his most recent appointments (that included filling 1 of the 2 Alberta vacancies), CPC/O'Foole clearly ramped up their rhetoric... quite obviously looking for another divisive wedge issue to play into the stooopid "UNFAIR DEAL" Alberta claims it receives as a part of the federation! And now we see that extend to the point that the CPC has officially named its candidate for the Alberta Senate. Meanwhile NO OTHER federal political parties are participating in the sham Alberta Senate election process... which would seem to fit the member wilber declared, "dependent and partisan" Senate he relishes!

(https://i.imgur.com/Dcz1FGi.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on August 05, 2021, 01:57:57 pm
I'm going to say it one last time, it is not about individuals it is about a secret process that selects them. How the hell would I or anyone else know whether they were the best choice because all the other candidates were secret, only known to the PM who makes makes his choice according to his own priorities.
I think regarding it as a private process really may be more appropriate. Something that belongs to a PM - more than just a perk of power - certainly a right in any case.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 05, 2021, 04:57:28 pm
I think regarding it as a private process really may be more appropriate. Something that belongs to a PM - more than just a perk of power - certainly a right in any case.

A self appointed right to secrecy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 05, 2021, 11:29:53 pm
more on that Alberta sham: after PM Trudeau made his most recent appointments (that included filling 1 of the 2 Alberta vacancies), CPC/O'Foole clearly ramped up their rhetoric... quite obviously looking for another divisive wedge issue to play into the stooopid "UNFAIR DEAL" Alberta claims it receives as a part of the federation! And now we see that extend to the point that the CPC has officially named its candidate for the Alberta Senate. Meanwhile NO OTHER federal political parties are participating in the sham Alberta Senate election process... which would seem to fit the member wilber declared, "dependent and partisan" Senate he relishes!

(https://i.imgur.com/Dcz1FGi.png)

the fix was in! It's a secret process... secret I tells ya! How do we know this was the best CPC candidate nomination? How many others were considered; were deliberated upon? We want the names, gdamnit! The names now! It's been suggested this was all under the control of CPC leader O'Foole! But who knows... cause its a secret!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 07, 2021, 12:55:24 pm
early learning & child-care agreements signed between the Liberal federal government and:

=> July 8 - British Columbia;
=> July 12 - Nova Scotia;
=> July 23 - Yukon;
=> July 27 - P.E.I.;
=> July 28 - Newfoundland and Labrador; and now:

=> August 5 - Quebec
(https://i.imgur.com/o8lKmW3.png)

hey now waldo, would you say there are provinces conspicuously absent in this growing list of agreements - well would ya?

riddle me this waldo, what do these conspicuously absent provinces have in common: the Conservative government of Alberta, the Conservative government of Saskatchewan, the Conservative government of Manitoba, the Conservative government of Ontario and the Conservative government of New Brunswick? What could it be... just what could it be, hey waldo?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2021, 10:35:54 am
early learning & child-care agreements signed between the Liberal federal government and:

=> July 8 - British Columbia;
=> July 12 - Nova Scotia;
=> July 23 - Yukon;
=> July 27 - P.E.I.;
=> July 28 - Newfoundland and Labrador;
=> August 5 - Quebec

=> August 9 - Manitoba signs on to federal $10-a-day child-care plan --- Plan aims to create 23,000 full-time spaces by 2025-26, increase pay for early childhood educators

(https://i.imgur.com/MtMxni6.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2021, 10:41:10 am
Affordable child-care is finally a political winner, 15 years after it was first proposed --- Paul Martin started it, Stephen Harper scrapped it in what we now know was a multi-billion dollar mistake (https://financialpost.com/news/economy/affordable-child-care-is-finally-a-political-winner-15-years-after-it-was-first-proposed)

Quote
Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin had put in place the beginnings of a national child-care program on the eve of his political downfall. Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who won the contest, promptly scrapped it, a multi-billion-dollar mistake based on what we know now about the relationship between subsidized daycare and labour participation rates.

Only about 81 per cent of women 15 years of age and over were working or looking for work at the end of Harper’s decade-long tenure, about the same as when he took power. The rate for men was about 91 per cent, also unchanged. The gap represents hundreds of thousands of people who could have been helping to generate wealth, but weren’t, sometimes by choice, but probably more often because daycare was too expensive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 12, 2021, 01:38:23 pm
The daycare announcements are fantastic news.  Now the state can raise all of our children from the age of 1-2 while both parents become the corporate slaves they've always dreamed about as all that extra income does absolutely nothing to increase standard of living because all its doing is driving up the bids on housing, which the feds and provinces have barely done anything about (banks and developers 4 life n*gga).  Why have a society where 1 income can support a family when you can need 2!  Surely this has helped single parents stay out of poverty!  Surely single parents could honestly use some daycare, but so can rich married couples.  Universal everything!

Corporate wh*ring is certainly more fulfilling than creating a human life from your own belly from the love with your spouse and then spending your time teaching it about life and love.  Congrats ladies!  There's a simple solution though...become a daycare worker!

As a bonus, instead of caring for our senior parents or having them help raise our kids as they do in developing countries, daycare means we can increase the rate of throwing our parents into retirement homes as they rot depressed and aimless.  The natural cycle of life is complete!  Who needs grandkids to keep you young when you can live in a residence filled with geriatric old spunkers who are constantly getting sick and dying all around you.

What a glorious achievement for society!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2021, 02:00:58 pm
Why have a society where 1 income can support a family when you can need 2! What a glorious achievement for society!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/08/ae/ef08aee2b5dfd7e8b15bf4833b0df821.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2021, 07:18:14 pm
federal government $1.44 billion investment in Telesat Lightspeed!

(https://i.imgur.com/Fzqsnfz.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 13, 2021, 07:32:44 pm

Who says the woman has to stay home fool?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 13, 2021, 07:34:47 pm
federal government $1.44 billion investment in Telesat Lightspeed!

How are the Liberals going to pay for all this stuff?  We all know they'll never balance another budget ever again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 24, 2021, 12:18:24 pm
Putting this here for lack of a better place: Meng pleads GUILTY

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-huaweis-meng-to-resolve-fraud-case-in-plea-deal-that-does-not-include/

Quote
Meng Wanzhou, the chief financial officer of Huawei Technologies, is expected to appear virtually in federal court in New York City Friday to resolve U.S. bank fraud charges against her, according to a source.

The source said the plea agreement does not include Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig, who have been imprisoned in China on charges of espionage since December 2018. It remains unclear if there is a side agreement with China that would free the two men who were arrested after Ms. Meng was detained at Vancouver International Airport on a U.S. extradition request.

Reuters first reported that Ms. Meng has accepted a plea deal that would end her extradition hearings in Canada and allow her to return to China.

In a letter filed in a New York court Friday, acting U.S. Attorney Nicole Boeckmann told presiding U.S. District Judge Ann Donnelly that the U.S. Justice department had reached a “resolution of the charges” against Ms. Meng.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 24, 2021, 04:01:11 pm
Putting this here for lack of a better place: Meng pleads GUILTY

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-huaweis-meng-to-resolve-fraud-case-in-plea-deal-that-does-not-include/

She didn't plead guilty, she made a plea deal and admitted some wrongdoing but no guilt on the charges.

They gave her a deferred prosecution agreement, which is how white collar criminals get out of jail free, similar to how the Trudeau gov wanted to handle SNC Lavalin.

If this doesn't result in the freeing of the 2 michael's this is a major failure for Canada and US-Canada relations.  Let's hope an announcement on them is released in the next few weeks.

Quote
In the agreement, which is not an admission of guilt, Ms. Meng accepts a significant portion of the U.S. government’s case against her. This includes that she made “untrue” statements to bankers about Huawei’s relationship with a company, Skycom, that conducted business in Iran and was in fact controlled by the Chinese company. She accepted that Huawei caused Skycom to conduct about $100-million of U.S. dollar transactions through a bank that cleared these through the United States – “at least some of which supported its work in Iran in violation of U.S. law.”
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 24, 2021, 04:54:51 pm
They gave her a deferred prosecution agreement, which is how white collar criminals get out of jail free, similar to how the Trudeau gov wanted to handle SNC Lavalin.

stop the Gorgeous revisionist presses! Of course, as it turned out, the sentencing SNC Lavalin received was LESS THAN what a DPA would have realized!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on September 24, 2021, 06:50:59 pm
She didn't plead guilty, she made a plea deal and admitted some wrongdoing but no guilt on the charges.

They gave her a deferred prosecution agreement, which is how white collar criminals get out of jail free, similar to how the Trudeau gov wanted to handle SNC Lavalin.

If this doesn't result in the freeing of the 2 michael's this is a major failure for Canada and US-Canada relations.  Let's hope an announcement on them is released in the next few weeks.

I suspect China will keep the Michaels on ice for awhile yet. They need to maintain the fiction they did nothing wrong - much like the stance Canada prefers to maintain re SNC Lavalin.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 24, 2021, 08:40:38 pm
I suspect China will keep the Michaels on ice for awhile yet. They need to maintain the fiction they did nothing wrong - much like the stance Canada prefers to maintain re SNC Lavalin.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/spavor-kovrig-return-1.6189516

They don’t give 2 poops what we think.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 24, 2021, 08:42:51 pm
Saw your post 2 mins ago - then saw this:

https://www.680news.com/2021/09/24/michael-kovig-and-michael-spavor-returning-to-canada-trudeau-says/

They are coming back.

How can China take itself seriously ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on September 24, 2021, 08:51:29 pm
Saw your post 2 mins ago - then saw this:

https://www.680news.com/2021/09/24/michael-kovig-and-michael-spavor-returning-to-canada-trudeau-says/

They are coming back.

How can China take itself seriously ?

We will keep buying their crap.  They have no voters to answer to.

What do they care?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on September 25, 2021, 01:25:48 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/spavor-kovrig-return-1.6189516

They don’t give 2 poops what we think.
Nonetheless they still had little to lose by maintaining the fiction the arrest of the Michael's wasn't hostage diplomacy. Given how their departure for Canada was timed to occur simultaneously with Meng's departure for China it appears China is actually celebrating the fact it was hostage diplomacy.

A sign of the darker age we're entering I guess.


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on September 25, 2021, 09:37:57 am
Trudeau and some of the media trying to portray these two as heroes, talking about how much they suffered. Sorry, they're not heroes. I don't wish them particular ill, but these are a pair of ex government functionaries who decided to use their contacts to make money over there. They ignored the cruelty and inhumanity of the governments they worked with to enrich themselves. Spavor in particular had no qualms working with the noxious North Korean regime to encourage investment and tourism there. I'm sure neither expected the government to come for them, since they were outsiders and maintaining scrupulous respect for their overlords. But they willingly, even eagerly moved to a land with no law run by evil, cruel men, believing that cruelty would ignore them. So it's kind of karma that they were given an up front and personal view of life on the other side.

Now we'll see speaking tours, and probably books as they cash in on their experience, perhaps the order of Canada, and lots of job offers from various public sector or affiliated institutions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 25, 2021, 11:24:40 am
...these are a pair of ex government functionaries who decided to use their contacts to make money over there. They ignored the cruelty and inhumanity of the governments they worked with to enrich themselves.

The International Crisis Group is an independent organisation working to prevent wars and shape policies that will build a more peaceful world. (https://www.crisisgroup.org/who-we-are)

Michael Kovrig has been Crisis Group's North East Asia Adviser since 2017. (https://www.crisisgroup.org/who-we-are/people/michael-kovrig)


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 25, 2021, 01:06:24 pm
apparently... the election burn is too raw to allow any mention of the government... of PM Trudeau! Particularly galling on CPC/O'Toole's part given his purposeful China rhetoric and attempts to politicize the '2 Michaels'!

(https://i.imgur.com/Uwtt1Og.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on September 25, 2021, 04:55:37 pm
The International Crisis Group is an independent organisation working to prevent wars and shape policies that will build a more peaceful world. (https://www.crisisgroup.org/who-we-are)

Michael Kovrig has been Crisis Group's North East Asia Adviser since 2017. (https://www.crisisgroup.org/who-we-are/people/michael-kovrig)
How nice for him. Got to maintain those contacts he made while with foreign affairs. Spavor was working to encourage investment and tourism in North Korea. Clearly not a man with a conscience.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on September 25, 2021, 04:57:44 pm
apparently... the election burn is too raw to allow any mention of the government... of PM Trudeau! Particularly galling on CPC/O'Toole's part given his purposeful China rhetoric and attempts to politicize the '2 Michaels'!


What did Trudeau have to do with it other than spending three years being China's **** and doing nothing to fight back?
But then again it's not all his fault. When the Desmarais give orders Liberal party leaders dance. And Power Corp has a lot of investments in China.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 25, 2021, 08:33:55 pm
the waldo deals in facts - not imprudent... cynical... conspiracy!

(https://i.imgur.com/Kq7quBr.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on September 25, 2021, 09:04:12 pm
the waldo deals in facts - not imprudent... cynical... conspiracy!


So you're saying because O'Toole was in Harper's cabinet it's okay for Trudeau to eat Chinese ass?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 26, 2021, 12:09:26 am
ChineseAzzLickerIn-Chief!
(https://i.imgur.com/UW8tYE7.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 26, 2021, 01:52:52 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/BylK2Cv.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on September 29, 2021, 12:19:58 pm
Globe and Mail delivers a top-notch facts only assessment of the end of the Two Michaels' event.

Interesting fact: China had the plane with Meng go through Russian airspace as far as possible in case the US pulled something.  Her arrival in China was watched by 100M people on TV reportedly.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/podcasts/the-decibel/article-the-two-michaels-where-do-canada-china-relations-go-from-here/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 03, 2021, 05:48:02 pm
Globe and Mail delivers a top-notch facts only assessment of the end of the Two Michaels' event.

Interesting fact: China had the plane with Meng go through Russian airspace as far as possible in case the US pulled something.  Her arrival in China was watched by 100M people on TV reportedly.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/podcasts/the-decibel/article-the-two-michaels-where-do-canada-china-relations-go-from-here/

The Meng deal was announced on Sept. 24, just 4 days after the Canadian federal election.  The Trudeau gov, Biden gov, and Chinese govs (who would obviously prefer Trudeau over O'Toole/CPC) almost certainly delayed the deal announcement until after the Canadian election in order to help Trudeau's re-election chances.

What does that mean?  It means Trudeau and the Liberals kept the 2 Michael's in a Chinese jail longer than necessary, infringing on their basic human rights, in order to help secure their own jobs and power.  That's what I call sociopathic.  But alas, the CPC did this kind of self-serving nonsense too during the Harper years.

Government of patriots.  *rolls eyes*
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 03, 2021, 07:24:08 pm
  The Trudeau gov, Biden gov, and Chinese govs (who would obviously prefer Trudeau over O'Toole/CPC) almost certainly delayed the deal announcement until after the Canadian election in order to help Trudeau's re-election chances.

Huh ?  I would have expected the news of the release to help him, but ok.

Quote
What does that mean?  It means Trudeau and the Liberals kept the 2 Michael's in a Chinese jail longer than necessary, infringing on their basic human rights, in order to help secure their own jobs and power.  That's what I call sociopathic.  But alas, the CPC did this kind of self-serving nonsense too during the Harper years.

Government of patriots.  *rolls eyes*

You are guessing here, and badly at that.  The best guess is that they got released when China and the US got around to it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 03, 2021, 07:24:39 pm
OH, and Jan Wong indicated there was some evidentiary deadline coming up soon that would have made it harder to stop extradition.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 03, 2021, 07:40:16 pm
Huh ?  I would have expected the news of the release to help him, but ok.

You think this was a win for Canada?  It's a national embarrassment and a major foreign policy blunder.  China got its way.

Quote
You are guessing here, and badly at that.  The best guess is that they got released when China and the US got around to it.

They got around to it 4 days after our federal election?  Just like Pfizer discovered the first effective covid vaccine at 7am of the first business day (a Monday) 36 hours after Biden was confirmed the winner of the US election?

Canada was obviously just as involved in this deal btw, given the 2 Michaels were released immediately after it was announced and Meng was in Canada on house arrest.

Doug Ford, having been in hiding during the election campaign, announced less than 2 days after the election that his gov is interested in a childcare deal with the feds and was in discussions with the Liberals before the election was called.  You think this was coincidence also?  https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-premier-doug-ford-wants-to-pursue-child-care-deal-with-re-elected-liberal-government-1.5596159

Ford also made the vaccine passport requirement begin on Sept. 22, again 2 days after the election.  Everything is all Seinfeld I says, just one big coincidence!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 03, 2021, 08:08:01 pm
You think this was a win for Canada?  It's a national embarrassment and a major foreign policy blunder.  China got its way.

It had nothing to do with us.  We had our hands tied and were played with.  The guys got released and there was relief.  Yes I think it would have helped Trudeau more thaan hurt him.

Quote

They got around to it 4 days after our federal election?  Just like Pfizer discovered the first effective covid vaccine at 7am of the first business day (a Monday) 36 hours after Biden was confirmed the winner of the US election?

They were working on it for at least a month before - Jan Wong surmises.

Quote
Canada was obviously just as involved in this deal btw, given the 2 Michaels were released immediately after it was announced and Meng was in Canada on house arrest.

We asked the US to help us, if that's what you mean.

 
Quote
Ford also made the vaccine passport requirement begin on Sept. 22, again 2 days after the election.  Everything is all Seinfeld I says, just one big coincidence!

Your game seems to be to look at events close to election dates, then suppose that they were part of a conspiracy because someone would have benefited.  I think that's a dumb game but we'll never know if you are right anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 03, 2021, 08:25:21 pm
You think this was a win for Canada?  It's a national embarrassment and a major foreign policy blunder.  China got its way.

policy blunder? Following the rule of law? Here, chew on this: Treaty on Extradition Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States of America (https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=101323)

and when the U.S. finally relented by offering a DPA to Meng Wanzhou, Canada dropped the extradition proceeding as it became moot.

it's clear you haven't a grasp as to what actually occurred - try again, try harder!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 03, 2021, 11:07:58 pm
policy blunder? Following the rule of law? Here, chew on this: Treaty on Extradition Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the United States of America (https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=101323)

and when the U.S. finally relented by offering a DPA to Meng Wanzhou, Canada dropped the extradition proceeding as it became moot.

it's clear you haven't a grasp as to what actually occurred - try again, try harder!

You're right I don't have any clue.  I'm really bad at taking different pieces of information and inferring logical conclusions with them with calculated degrees of certainty.  I am just a foolish conspiracy theorist after all.

Btw, in a totally unrelated matter, what were you up to in the week running up to the election that prevented you from participating in these forums and then finally joining a few hours after the projected winner was announced, hey waldo??
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 04, 2021, 06:34:45 am
You're right I don't have any clue.  I'm really bad at taking different pieces of information and inferring logical conclusions with them with calculated degrees of certainty.  I am just a foolish conspiracy theorist after all.

I actually gave a straightforward criticism of your approach above.  I wouldn't say foolish but your approach isn't rigorous.

Quote
Btw, in a totally unrelated matter, what were you up to in the week running up to the election that prevented you from participating in these forums and then finally joining a few hours after the projected winner was announced, hey waldo??

This is the story we really want to hear: what strategy did Waldo whisper in Justin's ear that turned things around ?!?  Not fair that we don't get to hear.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 04, 2021, 09:01:12 am
I actually gave a straightforward criticism of your approach above.  I wouldn't say foolish but your approach isn't rigorous.

There's no certainty, only degrees of probability.

What do you think the probability is that the deal announcement date was influenced by the election?  I would say high.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 04, 2021, 09:36:31 am
There's no certainty, only degrees of probability.

What do you think the probability is that the deal announcement date was influenced by the election?  I would say high.

Given the stakes and power of the main negotiators, I would say no.  Also the fact that Trudeau was happy to make the announcement and personally went to the airport to be part of the event ... I would say Trudeau wanted to be identified with the release, and therefore wasn't negatively impacted.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 06, 2021, 10:25:17 am
Christia Freeland has no lips.   Where they at?  What is her mouth hiding?  #LipGate  #Birdlips  #LipShaming
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 06, 2021, 10:47:44 am
Christia Freeland has no lips.   Where they at?  What is her mouth hiding?  #LipGate  #Birdlips  #LipShaming

It may be a fact that Chrystia Freeland has no lips at all, and in fact the very small bird lips we see are just drawn on by her with lipstick.  #LipGate
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 06, 2021, 11:05:33 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1428879372560240641/sBnRD_ws_400x400.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 06, 2021, 11:24:37 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1428879372560240641/sBnRD_ws_400x400.jpg)

"It may be a fact that Chrystia Freeland has no lips at all, and in fact the very small bird lips we see are just drawn on by her with lipstick."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 06, 2021, 02:06:51 pm
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7231/7256757854_a8200ffab4_b.jpg)

This lady had a fashion blog called big hips red lips....

https://extra-judaical11.rssing.com/chan-6760869/all_p1.html

ALL buttons = pushed

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7085/7187924537_d1fed5bac4_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 06, 2021, 02:30:58 pm
^STRICTLY POSTED TO COMPARE WITH MS. FREELAND AND LIPS^
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 06, 2021, 04:43:06 pm
^STRICTLY POSTED TO COMPARE WITH MS. FREELAND AND LIPS^

Thank you for sharing your chubby p0rn with us.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 06, 2021, 04:50:20 pm
Thank you for sharing your chubby **** with us.

Can I have a vowel ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 06, 2021, 11:55:58 pm
Can I have a vowel ?

Fixed it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on October 07, 2021, 08:16:27 am
Fixed it.

How is that **** ?  Just an innocent picture of a lil chubby gal having fun.

And it's quite relevant to the politics here... ie. the politics of a potential future PM and the vital issue... of the fullness of her lips.

Just have to take it back to the real here, Coonlight.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 10, 2021, 01:08:29 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/QfJq9YU.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 16, 2021, 04:37:40 pm
A sad saga.
Quote
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cansino-deal-canada-nrc-fifth-estate-1.6208241
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 18, 2021, 04:19:58 pm
A sad saga.

But so typical of the nativity of the drama teacher with the nice hair who's still in love with China and yearns for their friendship. Slap him in the face and he'll burst into tears and apologize for offending, then eagerly off himself up for more. Call him names and spit on him and he'll grovel and beg for more.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 19, 2021, 12:32:47 am
Canada’s job recovery numbers are leaving America in the dust (https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2021/10/16/canadas-job-market-is-leaving-america-in-the-dust.html)

Quote
The latest Statistics Canada employment report marked a milestone: for the first time in the pandemic, we’ve regained the same total employment (19.1 million workers) as when COVID hit. It’s not quite a full recovery, since population grew over that time. But by any measure, Canada’s labour market rebound has been extraordinary.

A largely unnoticed angle to this good news story is the emergence of a significant employment gap between Canada and the U.S. Both countries experienced equal job losses in the first lockdowns: employment fell 16 per cent from February through April 2020. And the path to recovery was initially similar. Over the past year, however, we’ve opened an impressive lead over our American cousins.

As we were regaining pre-pandemic jobs totals last month, U.S. employment still languished five million jobs lower than when COVID hit. And over the last four months Canadian employment has grown more than twice as fast.

Canada is not just excelling in the quantity of jobs. The quality of our new jobs is also superior.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 19, 2021, 03:20:03 pm
Public sector employment (which tends to be more secure and better paid) is 250,000 positions higher than in February 2020. In the U.S., in contrast, public sector employment is one million jobs lower (mostly at cash-strapped state and municipal governments).

Only a liberal would put that out as something good, something to be proud of.
Kudos to the Star for ignoring the fact the US unemployment rate is at 4.8% while ours is 6.9! Good job being a propaganda rag there Star!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 19, 2021, 11:29:14 pm
Kudos to the Star for ignoring the fact the US unemployment rate is at 4.8% while ours is 6.9! Good job being a propaganda rag there Star!

Isn't that a pretty low number for the US?  What is all the noise about then?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2021, 01:12:59 am
Kudos to the Star for ignoring the fact the US unemployment rate is at 4.8% while ours is 6.9! Good job being a propaganda rag there Star!

hey lil' buddy, given the myriad of differences in data collection and processing, legitimate country-to-country comparisons for employment rates are questionable... at best. That being said: for Sept 2021 - adjusted unemployment rate that includes those who wanted a job but did not look for one:
=> Canada LFS - @8.9%
=> U.S. BLS U-6 - @8.5%
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2021, 02:12:07 am
announcement today, per the Board of Internal Economy (BOIE), Parliament's governing body responsible for administrative rules:

Quote
When Parliament returns on Nov. 22, a requirement to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will apply to any person who wishes to enter the House of Commons Precinct, including members and their staff, political research office employees, administration employees, members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery, parliamentary business visitors, contractors and consultants.

Quote from: Simon Ross - spokesperson for government house leader Pablo Rodriguez
As used for much of the pandemic, Parliament may resume under the hybrid model which allows some MPs to attend virtually. We believe the hybrid House of Commons worked well earlier this year. We are supportive of continuing to have hybrid sittings of the House and continuing to make use of technology to ensure that Parliament continues to work well for all Canadians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2021, 01:31:44 pm
Quote from: Blake Richards, CPC MP & party whip
The vaccine requirement announced on Tuesday is something the CPC party will not agree to; the party believes all MPs should be able to enter the House of Commons.

As we said during the election, workplace health and safety can be assured through vaccination or the demonstration of a recent negative rapid test result. Regarding the return of Parliament, Canadians deserve a government that is accountable to its constituents and that’s why under no circumstances will Conservatives support virtual Parliament.

... per Canadian Press update from last week: ~65% (77 of 119) CPC MPs have disclosed that they are fully vaccinated... at least 2 CPC MPs are unvaccinated for what they say are medical reasons.

on edit: added Canadian Press update
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 20, 2021, 02:52:31 pm
Isn't that a pretty low number for the US?  What is all the noise about then?

Mostly about a shortage of workers...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 20, 2021, 02:53:25 pm
hey lil' buddy, given the myriad of differences in data collection and processing, legitimate country-to-country comparisons for employment rates are questionable... at best. That being said: for Sept 2021 - adjusted unemployment rate that includes those who wanted a job but did not look for one:
=> Canada LFS - @8.9%
=> U.S. BLS U-6 - @8.5%

Source of these statistics?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2021, 12:11:20 pm
hey lil' buddy, given the myriad of differences in data collection and processing, legitimate country-to-country comparisons for employment rates are questionable... at best. That being said: for Sept 2021 - adjusted unemployment rate that includes those who wanted a job but did not look for one:
=> Canada LFS - @8.9%
=> U.S. BLS U-6 - @8.5%

Source of these statistics?

oh my! How you so struggle... let the waldo school you further - you know, about the respective data gathering and processing arms for:

=> Canada Stats Can LFS... as in Labour Force Survey
=> U.S. BLS... as in Bureau of Labor Statistics

you're welcome!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 21, 2021, 07:17:49 pm
oh my! How you so struggle... let the waldo school you further - you know, about the respective data gathering and processing arms for:

=> Canada Stats Can LFS... as in Labour Force Survey
=> U.S. BLS... as in Bureau of Labor Statistics

you're welcome!

You know, I think I could ask you the time and you'd still find a way to answer like a snide little twat.

I see nothing in the Canadian labour force survey which indicates part-time workers are included in that figure you gave, whether they're looking for better or not. Perhaps you can look that up for me as the US number states that is included.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2021, 09:59:48 pm
hey lil' buddy, given the myriad of differences in data collection and processing, legitimate country-to-country comparisons for employment rates are questionable... at best. That being said: for Sept 2021 - adjusted unemployment rate that includes those who wanted a job but did not look for one:
=> Canada LFS - @8.9%
=> U.S. BLS U-6 - @8.5%

You know, I think I could ask you the time and you'd still find a way to answer like a snide little twat.

I see nothing in the Canadian labour force survey which indicates part-time workers are included in that figure you gave, whether they're looking for better or not. Perhaps you can look that up for me as the US number states that is included.

first you insult poor lil' waldo... then you ask for his help cause you haven't the mettle to manage yourself! I purposely laid down a caveat in regards legitimate comparisons and, as is your consistent way, you simply ignored it! There's a reason the waldo chose the U.S. BLS U-6 rate for comparison. If you want to dispute the fact that the Canadian employment definition includes both full-time and part-time workers... then do say - just don't ask the waldo to do your research for you, hey dumbazz! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2021, 10:11:18 pm
announcement today, per the Board of Internal Economy (BOIE), Parliament's governing body responsible for administrative rules:

Quote
When Parliament returns on Nov. 22, a requirement to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will apply to any person who wishes to enter the House of Commons Precinct, including members and their staff, political research office employees, administration employees, members of the Parliamentary Press Gallery, parliamentary business visitors, contractors and consultants.

Quote from: Simon Ross - spokesperson for government house leader Pablo Rodriguez
As used for much of the pandemic, Parliament may resume under the hybrid model which allows some MPs to attend virtually. We believe the hybrid House of Commons worked well earlier this year. We are supportive of continuing to have hybrid sittings of the House and continuing to make use of technology to ensure that Parliament continues to work well for all Canadians.
Quote from: Blake Richards, CPC MP & party whip
The vaccine requirement announced on Tuesday is something the CPC party will not agree to; the party believes all MPs should be able to enter the House of Commons.

As we said during the election, workplace health and safety can be assured through vaccination or the demonstration of a recent negative rapid test result. Regarding the return of Parliament, Canadians deserve a government that is accountable to its constituents and that’s why under no circumstances will Conservatives support virtual Parliament.

... per Canadian Press update from last week: ~65% (77 of 119) CPC MPs have disclosed that they are fully vaccinated... at least 2 CPC MPs are unvaccinated for what they say are medical reasons.

on edit: added Canadian Press update


so CPC/O'Toole blinked! LOL! O’Toole says Conservatives will respect ruling requiring MPs entering the Commons to be vaccinated (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-otoole-says-conservatives-will-respect-ruling-requiring-mps-entering/?cmpid=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Quote
Conservative Leader Erin O’Toole says his party will respect a new ruling requiring all MPs who enter the House of Commons precinct to be fully vaccinated – even though some of his MPs have objected to the policy.

In an interview on TVO’s The Agenda with Steve Paikin, Mr. O’Toole said the Board of Internal Economy (BOIE) “and the Speaker have ruled, and we will respect that. Of course, we also think, though, that we have to look at not dividing people on the issue.”

bottom line is if the CPC/O'Toole continued on it would have forced a full members vote in the HOC... one the CPC clearly would have lost anyway! Imagine, CPC/O'Toole coming to his senses and accepting reality!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 22, 2021, 03:53:59 pm
If you want to dispute the fact that the Canadian employment definition includes both full-time and part-time workers... then do say - just don't ask the waldo to do your research for you, hey dumbazz! LOL!

Okay, the Canadian cite you used does not include part-timers, who are listed elewhere. Prove otherwise WALL-E.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 22, 2021, 06:43:21 pm
Okay, the Canadian cite you used does not include part-timers, who are listed elewhere. Prove otherwise.

quote from the cite to support your statement/claim... sure you can!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 23, 2021, 12:27:08 pm
... per Canadian Press update from last week: ~65% (77 of 119) CPC MPs have disclosed that they are fully vaccinated... at least 2 CPC MPs are unvaccinated for what they say are medical reasons.

well... it would appear this CPC MP for Haldimand-Norfolk could be... might be... 'one of those'! Then again, she is a Doctor after all!

wait waldo, caveat emptor: she's not a medical doc - she has a Doctorate (of International Law, no less):

(https://i.imgur.com/8xrVf0O.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 23, 2021, 01:19:57 pm
oh my! Conservative Premier Moe said what?

(https://i.imgur.com/JS3N0au.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 23, 2021, 01:56:58 pm
so CPC/O'Toole blinked! LOL! O’Toole says Conservatives will respect ruling requiring MPs entering the Commons to be vaccinated (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-otoole-says-conservatives-will-respect-ruling-requiring-mps-entering/?cmpid=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)

Quote
Conservative Leader Erin O’Toole says his party will respect a new ruling requiring all MPs who enter the House of Commons precinct to be fully vaccinated – even though some of his MPs have objected to the policy.

In an interview on TVO’s The Agenda with Steve Paikin, Mr. O’Toole said the Board of Internal Economy (BOIE) “and the Speaker have ruled, and we will respect that. Of course, we also think, though, that we have to look at not dividing people on the issue.”

bottom line is if the CPC/O'Toole continued on it would have forced a full members vote in the HOC... one the CPC clearly would have lost anyway! Imagine, CPC/O'Toole coming to his senses and accepting reality!

geezaz waldo! CPC/O'Toole does mega flip-flop! LOL!

After saying Tories 'will respect' decision on vaccine mandate for MPs, O’Toole now says it 'infringes' on their rights (https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/otoole-does-about-face-on-vaccine-mandate-for-mps-in-commons-now-says-decision-infringes-on-their-rights)

Quote
After first saying that he “will respect” the House of Commons’ internal management committee ruling that MPs need to be fully vaccinated to enter Parliament on Wednesday, Conservative Leader Erin O’Toole now insists that the decision “infringes” on members’ rights.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 23, 2021, 07:26:36 pm
quote from the cite to support your statement/claim... sure you can!

It listed part-time workers as part of the employed WALL-E.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 23, 2021, 11:21:41 pm
It listed part-time workers as part of the employed.

you dullard! Quote the definition for the U.S. BLS U-6 rate... and compare it to the definition for the Canada LFS adjusted unemployment rate!

you're so easy the waldo wonders why he bothers to keep embarrassing you! Oh wait, that's why! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 25, 2021, 08:09:26 pm
Sajjan out as Defence Minister, but will be given another cabinet position.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cabinet-announcement-preview-1.6224623
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 26, 2021, 01:10:51 pm
Sajjan out as Defence Minister, but will be given another cabinet position.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cabinet-announcement-preview-1.6224623

Kind of predictable. He should have left years ago after his lies were revealed, but that didn't matter. What mattered was Trudeau was being embarrassed about his 'feminism' by a continuing stream of uncomfortable stories about sexual harassment. Solution: appoint a woman. Now he's in the clear.

Then there's Mark Garneau out of Foreign Affairs. Why? He could actually find his ass with only one hand. Replaced by the inane and feeble Melanie Joli! As John Ibbiton puts it.

Mr. Garneau – who succeeded François-Philippe Champagne, Chrystia Freeland and Stéphane Dion – was one of the more capable ministers in the Liberal cabinet. But he had a reputation for resisting dictates from officials in the Prime Minister’s Office, which is highly career-limiting in this government. And as a 72-year-old white male, Mr. Garneau contributed nothing to the diversity quotient on the Liberal front bench. 

Can't have ministers who get the idea they're in charge of anything. The PMO is in charge and your job as minister is to shut up and do as you're told.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 26, 2021, 03:49:02 pm
Mr. Garneau – who succeeded François-Philippe Champagne, Chrystia Freeland and Stéphane Dion – was one of the more capable ministers in the Liberal cabinet. But he had a reputation for resisting dictates from officials in the Prime Minister’s Office, which is highly career-limiting in this government. And as a 72-year-old white male, Mr. Garneau contributed nothing to the diversity quotient on the Liberal front bench.

BAHAHAHA.  Welcome to Canada, a monarchy Parliament elected by the sheeple.  The UK got rid of one monarchy and installed another.  What a bunch of morons.  1 person 1 vote is a joke in this country.  Our "democracy" is a joke, it's sad.  Not even the Attorney General has any political independence, JWR sure got the boot when His Majesty "the little prince" came calling with corporate favours to hand out.  And the voters put that party back into power.  Morons.

All the cabinet ministers take orders from the PM, as if it matters what's swinging between their legs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 26, 2021, 08:05:33 pm
Kind of predictable. He should have left years ago after his lies were revealed, but that didn't matter. What mattered was Trudeau was being embarrassed about his 'feminism' by a continuing stream of uncomfortable stories about sexual harassment. Solution: appoint a woman. Now he's in the clear.

what lies? Cite your reference for same - sure you can! By the by lil' buddy - how does an apparent culture within the military translate into your supposed {current} government embarrassment - when, most pointedly, the principal file on Vance is one that originates back to the days of Harper Conservative governance, hey?

the Privy Council Office (PCO) is responsible for the conduct of governor-in-council appointments such as the defence chief; more pointedly, Defence Minister Sajjan reported the Walbourne 'allegation against Vance' to the PCO... and the very day after the Sajjan/Walbourne meeting, the PCO in contacting ombudsman Walbourne was stymied by Walbourne's refusal to separately turn over potentially incriminating emails and the name of the female military member who had complained informally to him about Vance.

now today - per former Chief Of Staff to Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Ray Novak:
Conservatives heard 'rumours' of Vance's alleged inappropriate relationships in 2015 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservatives-heard-rumours-of-vance-s-alleged-inappropriate-relationships-in-2015-1.5958954)

CPC drumbeat has been to state the Privy Council Office (PCO) was not the right area to investigate... that Minister Sajjan should have investigated more directly himself; and yet back in 2015 (under Harper) when allegations first surfaced against Vance, the Conservatives said the very opposite, stating that the PCO was the right area to do an investigation and politicians and staff should never engage in that!

so..... The Harper PMO was involved, Conservative Prime Minister Harper was briefed, the Veterans Affairs minister Erin O'Toole was briefed, the Defense Minister Jason Kenney was briefed... and still Harper/the CPC government appointed Vance to Chief of Defense Staff position.

The Liberals were given evidence of his misconduct.  Actual evidence that could be investigated.  The Minister of Defence said he didn't want to see it.

NO - you are incorrect! No evidence was provided by the (former) Ombudsman... because he had none to provide... the unidentified complainant did not want her name or circumstances of the allegation made public - she did not want to register a formal complaint. However, Liberal Minister of Defence Sajjan (the very next day after being approached by the (former) Ombudsman), referred the "matter" to the Privy Council Office (PCO) to determine next steps. Again, the PCO is the appropriate area to determine whether an investigation can proceed/is warranted.

member Gorgeous, quit making shyte up!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 26, 2021, 08:08:01 pm
Not even the Attorney General has any political independence, JWR sure got the boot when His Majesty "the little prince" came calling with corporate favours to hand out.

heavyCoon revisionism! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 26, 2021, 08:18:21 pm
Then there's Mark Garneau out of Foreign Affairs. Why? He could actually find his ass with only one hand. Replaced by the inane and feeble Melanie Joli! As John Ibbiton puts it.

CPC water carrier John Ibbitson says what?  And wow, all these supporting CPC media wags suddenly coming forward to 'praise' Garneau... yet as supposedly competent Garneau was, he lacked communication skills - to the point he had a tendency to avoid media scrums and interviews to the detriment of the ministry and public perception. It will shortly come out as to where he will land and the related 'why' - stay tuned lil' buddy!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 26, 2021, 09:00:34 pm
I am a **** fan of whatever party waldo hates the most at any given time.  Lemme know wally!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 27, 2021, 01:22:15 am
I couldn't abide the Liberals long before I ever met the waldo.  He merely underscored why that is. Ironically, he's probably the most genuine Liberal I know.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 27, 2021, 01:40:36 am
(https://i.imgur.com/6tXFNdk.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 27, 2021, 03:23:08 pm
what lies? Cite your reference for same - sure you can! By the by lil' buddy - how does an apparent culture within the military translate into your supposed {current} government embarrassment - when, most pointedly, the principal file on Vance is one that originates back to the days of Harper Conservative governance, hey?

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has apologized to Canadian, American and Afghan troops that he served with in Afghanistan for claiming that he was the “architect” of Canada’s most famous and bloodiest combat operation of that war.

The minister made the claim in a speech last week in India. He told a gathering of security experts in New Delhi on April 18 that “on my first deployment to Kandahar in 2006, I was the architect of Operation Medusa where we removed 1,500 Taliban fighters off the battlefield … and I was proudly on the main assault.”


https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/sajjan-retracts-claim-he-was-architect-of-canadas-biggest-combat-operation-in-afghanistan
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 27, 2021, 03:24:52 pm
CPC water carrier John Ibbitson says what?  And wow, all these supporting CPC media wags suddenly coming forward to 'praise' Garneau... yet as supposedly competent Garneau was, he lacked communication skills - to the point he had a tendency to avoid media scrums and interviews to the detriment of the ministry and public perception. It will shortly come out as to where he will land and the related 'why' - stay tuned lil' buddy!

LOL! Avoided media scrums! LOL. As if we get anything from Liberal cabinet ministers or Trudeau but dancing around the question without ever even approaching an answer!

Having Garneau turfed out of cabinet showed an egregious lack of judgment on the part of the prime minister. A cynic might say that Garneau’s rare skills, brainpower and ethics made Trudeau uncomfortable and that he prefers to surround himself with less demanding, more malleable cabinet ministers.

Knowing Garneau as I do, I suspect he also refused to be a lackey to the all-powerful Prime Minister’s Office. As minster of transport and then minister of foreign affairs, Garneau did what was right and what was best, not what the PMO told him to do.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/peter-f-trent-trudeau-shows-he-holds-little-regard-for-competency-by-turfing-cabinets-brightest-light-marc-garneau
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 27, 2021, 03:32:24 pm
Trudeau has appointed a pair of rabid climate activists to both the environment and Natural Resources portfolios. It's a big 'screw you' to western provinces and virtually certain to build more western alienation and separatist sentiment. It's also likely to signal further efforts at strangling Canada's Natural Resources industries, despite the billions of dollars in exports it produces every week and the 170,000 well-paid jobs in the oil and gas sector alone.

But it's part and parcel of the shallowness of this Liberal government's economic policies, with no efforts at expanding the economy, and all attention turned to redistributing what wealth there is while running up immense deficits.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/terence-corcoran-two-climate-activists-take-charge-of-canadas-resource-economy-what-could-go-wrong


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 28, 2021, 12:25:51 am
Trudeau has appointed a pair of rabid climate activists to both the environment and Natural Resources portfolios.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/terence-corcoran-two-climate-activists-take-charge-of-canadas-resource-economy-what-could-go-wrong

I'm shocked you're parroting the CPC/O'Toole "climate activists" talking point! Somehow when Minister Wilkinson was the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, he wasn't labelled an activist... only now when he takes on the Natural Resources ministry, he's an "activist"! There is nothing in his past that would substantiate such a purposely targeted misinforming label - nothing! As for Minister Guilbeault, now taking over the Environment and Climate Change ministry, yes... some 20+ years ago, he most certainly was a Greenpeace activist - then became political in the early-to-mid 2000's with an assortment of jobs/work with the Quebec provincial & Montreal municipal governments, along with an assortment of corporate jobs.

but ya, you support your climate activist BS by linking to one of Canada's most dubious climate deniers - Terrance Corcoran! Terry Corcoran: King of Canadian Climate Change Deniers (https://www.desmog.com/2006/01/27/terry-corcoran-king-of-canadian-climate-change-deniers/). Well done lil' buddy, well done! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 28, 2021, 12:31:51 am
CPC water carrier John Ibbitson says what?  And wow, all these supporting CPC media wags suddenly coming forward to 'praise' Garneau... yet as supposedly competent Garneau was, he lacked communication skills - to the point he had a tendency to avoid media scrums and interviews to the detriment of the ministry and public perception. It will shortly come out as to where he will land and the related 'why' - stay tuned lil' buddy!

LOL! Avoided media scrums! LOL. As if we get anything from Liberal cabinet ministers or Trudeau but dancing around the question without ever even approaching an answer!

c'mon, pick a lane! You're countering the media hacks and CPC/O'Toole et al, who now want to position the guy as most capable/competent... make up your mind!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 28, 2021, 07:51:33 pm
I'm shocked you're parroting the CPC/O'Toole "climate activists" talking point! Somehow when Minister Wilkinson was the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, he wasn't labelled an activist... only now when he takes on the Natural Resources ministry, he's an "activist"! There is nothing in his past that would substantiate such a purposely targeted misinforming label - nothing!

He is directly quoted as saying climate change was the whole reason he got involved in politics.

Quote
As for Minister Guilbeault, now taking over the Environment and Climate Change ministry, yes... some 20+ years ago, he most certainly was a Greenpeace activist - then became political in the early-to-mid 2000's with an assortment of jobs/work with the Quebec provincial & Montreal municipal governments, along with an assortment of corporate jobs.

He was more than an activist. The nutjob went to the Alberta premier's house and scared the s*it out of his wife by climbing up on the roof and nailing signs to the walls. Yu guys nearly had your heads explode because people were shouting nasty words at your beloved blackface PM but this guy is fine, right?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 28, 2021, 07:52:52 pm
c'mon, pick a lane! You're countering the media hacks and CPC/O'Toole et al, who now want to position the guy as most capable/competent... make up your mind!

Compared your shallow, callow dullard of a PM he certainly is the most capable and competent.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 28, 2021, 11:20:10 pm
He is directly quoted as saying climate change was the whole reason he got involved in politics.

oh my! If what you claim is actually true, is this the measuring bar you, your CPC supporting ilk and CPC/O'Toole use to label someone (in this case, Minister Wilkinson) an "activist"? Really? Would you like a do-over here?

He was more than an activist. The nutjob went to the Alberta premier's house and scared the s*it out of his wife by climbing up on the roof and nailing signs to the walls.

hey lil' buddy, if you're now stating Minister Guilbeault is... more than... an activist, why did you parrot the latest CPC/O'Toole talking point calling him... just... an activist? But c'mon man, wouldn't it be more appropriate to label the guy a... former... {Greenpeace} activist? Cause, again, after almost 2 decades of working for an assortment of Quebec governments (provincial & municipal) and an assortment of corporate and consulting gigs, that might suggest the guy no longer warrants a current activist label - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 28, 2021, 11:21:32 pm
Compared your shallow, callow dullard of a PM he certainly is the most capable and competent.

the election outcome still burns, hey! #3peatTrudeau
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 29, 2021, 01:35:04 pm
so... the CPC has a new target... not-for-profit 'Elevate' (https://elevate.ca/our-story/) had the apparent audacity to invite PM Trudeau's mother, Margaret Trudeau, to its recent 'Think 2030' conference. It was absolutely unconscionable the way NDP's Charlie Lingus and CPC's #pigeonPierre went after Ms. Trudeau during their trumped up rush to bring the WE Charity down. Now we have d-Bag Michael Barrett, CPC MP for Leeds-Grenville-1000 Islands & Rideau Lakes, leading the charge!

Conservatives ask ethics commissioner to investigate Margaret Trudeau's speaking appearance (https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/conservatives-ask-ethics-commissioner-to-investigate-margaret-trudeau-s-speaking-appearance-1.5642639)

one of the prior fake outrage angles was to claim Ms. Trudeau only received speaking engagements because of her 'last name' - that she held no particular related knowledge set or experience to substantiate the speaking invites.

(https://i.imgur.com/VI3JuDZ.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 29, 2021, 06:48:51 pm
the election outcome still burns, hey! #3peatTrudeau
Go tell it to 1st nations. What a dog fucker. Nice display of sincere commitment just on the cusp of COP26.

Greta Thunberg's blah blah blah says it all. 26 years of dog ****. I guess 1st nations have seen it all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on October 31, 2021, 12:02:49 pm
c'mon, pick a lane! You're countering the media hacks and CPC/O'Toole et al, who now want to position the guy as most capable/competent... make up your mind!

Are you saying he WASN'T capable and competent? A loyal, lifelong Liberal who by all accounts did a very good job in his portfolio tossed aside in favour of one of Trudeau's brainless loyalists and that's fine with you?

But now Trudeau has left him at the side of the road. When it came down to it, Trudeau chose friendship over collegiality in promoting Joly to Foreign Affairs, ditching Garneau in the process. Joly had been an ardent supporter of his leadership campaign in 2013, while Garneau had initially run against him, before withdrawing and endorsing him. Even after she was demoted from Heritage to the lesser role of Official Languages minister, Trudeau encouraged her by adding Economic Development as a reward for her hard work.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/l-ian-macdonald-what-garneaus-ouster-says-about-trudeau/wcm/e3000f9f-1ac3-4b60-931c-254728007574
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 31, 2021, 01:00:34 pm
...who by all accounts did a very good job in his portfolio...

yes, most certainly by the accounts of those opinion writers helping to support yet another Postmedia divisive play. Of course Garneau has a storied career outside of politics; in senior roles he was a minister in only 2 portfolios... the latter Foreign Affairs for only some 6 months or so. To the waldo, his time as Transport Minister includes the critically panned Air Passenger Protection Regulations legislation... and his delay in handling Canada's Boeing 737 planes. As for Foreign Affairs his public messaging around Afghanistan evacuations deserves some degree of criticism in balance with related security and secrecy aspects.

to the waldo it seems those CPC media water carriers want to tout the merits of Garneau... but none of the 4 or so articles I've cursory reviewed actually detail/list his key ministry accomplishments - go figure, hey! Perhaps you could stand in for them and do so - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 01, 2021, 04:32:00 pm
yes, most certainly by the accounts of those opinion writers helping to support yet another Postmedia divisive play.

Are you saying he wasn't? Perhaps you could say why. And also give us the benefit of your learned insider information about what a brilliant and competent minister Joly was given she couldn't even handle the Heritage portfolio. Not that it wasn't a big promotion to make her minister of uhm official languages...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2021, 11:17:23 am
Are you saying he wasn't? Perhaps you could say why.

say what? I gave 3 examples of critical review/assessment... and then suggested you could stand in for those media CPC sycophants trying to drive yet another wedge by touting Garneau's competency, yet somehow failing to actually detail/list his significant accomplishments in Transport & Foreign Affairs. Still waiting on you - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 04, 2021, 08:55:54 pm
say what? I gave 3 examples of critical review/assessment... and then suggested you could stand in for those media CPC sycophants trying to drive yet another wedge by touting Garneau's competency, yet somehow failing to actually detail/list his significant accomplishments in Transport & Foreign Affairs. Still waiting on you - yes?

LOL. As if any of that was up to him! As if he had the authority to do anything about Afghanistan or air transport rights for passengers without vetting and permission from Der Office of der Fuehrer!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2021, 11:53:48 pm
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c5/32/91/c5329178c33319e847fc75f39f43241f.gif) 15 to 30 Tory MPs and Senators starting new caucus to speak up for anti-vaxxers losing jobs (https://www.hilltimes.com/2021/11/04/in-a-move-pollster-calls-a-direct-challenge-to-otooles-leadership-15-to-30-tory-mps-and-senators-starting-new-caucus-to-speak-up-for-anti-vaxxers-losing-jobs/326954)

Quote
Erin O’Toole’s stance on COVID-19 vaccinations hurt the Conservative Party’s recent election campaign and remains a divisive internal issue as a group of 15 to 30 Conservative MPs and Senators is set to start a new inter-party caucus on Nov. 8 called the “Civil Liberties Caucus” that Conservative MP Marilyn Gladu says will speak up for anti-vaxxers who are losing their jobs for refusing to get the shot.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 05, 2021, 12:03:32 am
LOL. As if any of that was up to him! As if he had the authority to do anything about Afghanistan or air transport rights for passengers without vetting and permission from Der Office of der Fuehrer!

(https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/godwins-law-300x90.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 05, 2021, 05:53:35 pm
(https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/godwins-law-300x90.png)

You have an issue with all decisions being made and all subjects first being cleared by your dear leader's office?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 06, 2021, 12:13:15 am
You have an issue with all decisions being made and all subjects first being cleared by your dear leader's office?

let's recap:
- you (and ConMedia) parrot the CPC/O'Toole statement that PM Trudeau failed to select the {supposedly} uber-competent Garneau to remain within the latest government cabinet
- the waldo provides examples of critically assessed actions/legislation associated with Garneau... and challenges you to fill the void ConMedia has left by failing to provide Garneau competency determinants
- you maintain the waldo's critically assessed examples can't be attributed to Garneau since, as you claim/state, "the PMO makes all decisions and clears all subjects"

member Cynic summation: as CPC/O'Toole parroted, a determined competent Garneau presumes upon a competent PMO
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 06, 2021, 12:21:04 pm
let's recap:
- you (and ConMedia) parrot the CPC/O'Toole statement that PM Trudeau failed to select the {supposedly} uber-competent Garneau to remain within the latest government cabinet
- the waldo provides examples of critically assessed actions/legislation associated with Garneau... and challenges you to fill the void ConMedia has left by failing to provide Garneau competency determinants
- you maintain the waldo's critically assessed examples can't be attributed to Garneau since, as you claim/state, "the PMO makes all decisions and clears all subjects"

member Cynic summation: as CPC/O'Toole parroted, a determined competent Garneau presumes upon a competent PMO

All of whicch leaves out that the supposed reason he was bounced was arguing too much with the PMO.
There is competence unrelated to a few isolated statements or decisions, y'know, wally. None of which has been demonstrated by his replacement, who, not concidentally, has always been one of Trudeau's biggest rah-rah supporters.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 08, 2021, 12:19:39 pm
There is competence unrelated to a few isolated statements or decisions...

and yet, for some reason, you have yet to detail/itemize said competence - go figure, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 08, 2021, 12:25:41 pm
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c5/32/91/c5329178c33319e847fc75f39f43241f.gif) 15 to 30 Tory MPs and Senators starting new caucus to speak up for anti-vaxxers losing jobs (https://www.hilltimes.com/2021/11/04/in-a-move-pollster-calls-a-direct-challenge-to-otooles-leadership-15-to-30-tory-mps-and-senators-starting-new-caucus-to-speak-up-for-anti-vaxxers-losing-jobs/326954)
Quote
Erin O’Toole’s stance on COVID-19 vaccinations hurt the Conservative Party’s recent election campaign and remains a divisive internal issue as a group of 15 to 30 Conservative MPs and Senators is set to start a new inter-party caucus on Nov. 8 called the “Civil Liberties Caucus” that Conservative MP Marilyn Gladu says will speak up for anti-vaxxers who are losing their jobs for refusing to get the shot.

speaking of caucus selection... it's been 2 weeks since PM Trudeau announced the governing 44th Parliament caucus; yet for some reason, CPC/O'Toole is still struggling to complete the selection and publicly announce the 'Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet for the 44th Parliament'!

what's he waiting for, hey?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 08, 2021, 12:27:24 pm


speaking of caucus selection... it's been 2 weeks since PM Trudeau announced the governing 44th Parliament caucus; yet for some reason, CPC/O'Toole is still struggling to complete the selection and publicly announce the 'Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet for the 44th Parliament'!

what's he waiting for, hey?

Maybe unlike Mr. Blackface he's choosing people based on actual merit, hey?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 08, 2021, 12:31:03 pm
Conservative alarmism over jobs data is either dishonest or delusional (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-conservative-alarmism-over-jobs-data-is-either-dishonest-or-delusional/)

Quote from: hyperventilating, dishonest and/or delusional Erin O'Toole
Today’s report by Statistics Canada makes it clear that Justin Trudeau is failing to create jobs, our economy is shrinking, and inflation is running at an 18-year high of 4.4 per cent

Quote
This degree of hyperventilation has become pretty routine in Conservative news releases on economic matters. It is either dishonest or delusional. Neither of which is a good look for any party with aspirations of returning to power, let alone one that likes to frame itself as the country’s only choice for sound and responsible economic policy.

Let’s measure Mr. O’Toole’s statement against the data, shall we?

Canadian employment has grown for five consecutive months, adding 600,000 jobs in that time. As of September, total employment has exceeded the level prior to the pandemic – at a time when our neighbours in the United States are still 3 per cent short of their prepandemic count. Canada’s labour force participation rate – the share of the adult population either working or actively seeking work – has also returned to prepandemic levels, which, again, is far ahead of the U.S. labour recovery.

The breakneck pace of this year’s economic recovery has cooled a bit lately in the face of the Delta variant, but real gross domestic product still grew by a solid 0.4 per cent in August (the most recent data published by Statistics Canada), and most economists estimate that it expanded at an annualized pace north of 3 per cent in the third quarter. It looks on track for 2021 full-year growth of something approaching 5 per cent – which would make this the fastest-growing year for the economy in 14 years. That fits no one’s definition of “shrinking.”
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 08, 2021, 12:36:11 pm
speaking of caucus selection... it's been 2 weeks since PM Trudeau announced the governing 44th Parliament caucus; yet for some reason, CPC/O'Toole is still struggling to complete the selection and publicly announce the 'Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet for the 44th Parliament'!

what's he waiting for, hey?

Maybe O'Toole is choosing people based on actual merit, hey?

we're approaching 7 weeks since the #3peatTrudeau result... waldo, is that a long time to scrutinize the CPC bench strength for... merit? LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 09, 2021, 11:29:37 pm
so... 2 weeks since PM Trudeau announced the governing 44th Parliament cabinet and 7 weeks since the #3peatTrudeau win, CPC/O'Toole finally squeaks out his selections for the 44th Parliament 'Official Opposition Shadow Cabinet'!

oh my! Small government favouring Conservatives line up 49 'Shadow members' to go up against the 39 members of the governing Liberal cabinet... apparently what 'Canada's Conservatives' lack in merit, they attempt to make up with more members. LOL! Hey member Cynic!

and best of all, after being demoted from Finance last shuffle, #pigeonPierre is back in the Finance saddle. CPC/O'Toole on his selection of Pierre Poilievre:

Quote from: CPC leader O'Toole
As you know, Pierre is one of our strongest communicators. He's tough in the House. I see Liberals quiver when he rises to his feet
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 10, 2021, 12:14:58 am
Or maybe they could just do their jobs.

Fat chance of that I think. I'm becoming more convinced that effective governance is crippled with a  critical mass of straight up incompetence. Peter Principle?

We're screwed and there doesn't appear to be a damn thing anyone can do about it, least of all the politicians.

Maybe human socities are simply ungovernable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 10, 2021, 12:05:58 pm
and best of all, after being demoted from Finance last shuffle, #pigeonPierre is back in the Finance saddle.

whaaaa, skippy can't help himself! Shades of the distant past SNL character...

(https://i.imgur.com/99JVBIi.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 10, 2021, 03:32:51 pm
You know, Wally, if you had anything interesting to say, anything worth replying to, maybe you wouldn't have to keep holding these discussions with yourself.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 10, 2021, 03:52:35 pm
You know, Wally, if you had anything interesting to say, anything worth replying to, maybe you wouldn't have to keep holding these discussions with yourself.

says you, the guy whose last prior 6 posts in this thread each quoted from posts of the waldo!

carry on! Try again, try harder - hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 11, 2021, 10:45:05 am
(https://i.imgur.com/hfjfjov.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 11, 2021, 02:17:18 pm
Wow.  Stay classy Waldo.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 11, 2021, 04:04:32 pm
says you, the guy whose last prior 6 posts in this thread each quoted from posts of the waldo!

carry on! Try again, try harder - hey!

You seemed to be the only one talking politics, even if nothing you have to say is particularly interesting or intelligent.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 15, 2021, 11:18:19 pm
Conservative senator Denise Batters launches petition to oust Erin O'Toole as leader:
(https://i.imgur.com/9P7dyhI.png)
Quote
But multiple sources told Global News that her petition is part of a “multi-step” campaign that includes MPs and senators, as well as current and former party officials that want O’Toole gone after September’s disappointing election results.

“This is part of multi-step campaign. This will unfold over the next three months, really over the next six months,” said one Conservative MP, who agreed to speak to Global News on the condition they not be named. A second source corroborated the MP’s account.

seems BuffaloGalRempel is not impressed - an open message to Denise Batters! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1460386835713036291/pu/vid/888x664/YI8ZG_FgnxugzPAp.mp4?tag=12)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 17, 2021, 09:56:23 am
(https://i.imgur.com/4BamRUE.png)

whaaa! That 2019 tweet from BuffaloGalRempel sure has aged well! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 18, 2021, 04:59:59 am
(https://i.imgur.com/OxQO1RY.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 24, 2021, 08:40:55 am
(https://i.imgur.com/6cqvH3t.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: The Cynic on November 24, 2021, 09:07:27 pm
Liberals, doing their best to help the middle class by keeping wages down for big business!

As Immigrants Pour In, Wages Stagnate in Surging Canadian Economy
In the five years through 2020, about 1.9 million newcomers came to the country, up from 1.2 million the previous five years. The U.S., nine times the size of Canada, saw its net flow of immigration drop to about 3.8 million over that time, from 4.5 million.

The results are simultaneously terrific and problematic: Companies have been filling job postings at a breakneck clip, pushing payrolls back above pre-pandemic levels and allowing them to ramp output back up. But workers, with fewer labor shortages acting as leverage, are scoring tiny wage increases -- currently running at 2% on average -- that leave them poorer after inflation of almost 5% is factored in.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-24/immigrant-influx-stunts-wage-growth-in-canada-s-strong-recovery
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2021, 11:19:59 am
Liberals, doing their best to help the middle class by keeping wages down for big business!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-24/immigrant-influx-stunts-wage-growth-in-canada-s-strong-recovery

your linked article is behind a subscribers paywall!

but hey, other than relying upon immigration, what's your alternative to a worker shortage tied to an aging (retiring) workforce? As the waldo reads,
Quote
"Since 2008-09, an aging workforce has subtracted one million workers from the economy. And longer-run demographic forces will continue to weigh on labour force participation as waves of baby boomers reach typical retirement age... forecasts suggest that retirements will remove another 600,000 workers from the country’s available labour pool over the next three years. "
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2021, 12:33:38 pm
the CPC/O'Toole dance continues! Covid related stats suggest legitimate vaccination exemptions total between 1-to-3 persons per a 100,000 populace... and those exemptions would, typically, be limited to those who are at risk of a severe allergic reaction or at an elevated risk of developing myocarditis (a rare heart condition).

since CPC/O'Toole continue to refuse to state the actual number of CPC MPs claiming/stating they hold a medical exemption, speculation continues - to as high as "more than 20+ CPC MPs who haven't received COVID vaccinations". State the number CPC/O'Toole; end the speculation! What are you waiting for... what are you afraid of?
(https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/politics/political-opinion/2021/09/04/prime-minister-erin-otoole-try-that-one-on-for-size/erin_otoole.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 26, 2021, 10:35:46 am
Deputy PM Freeland, once again, schools/spanks #PigeonPierre... even turning a National Post column from ConSchill John Ivison against PP! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1464053984717541381/pu/vid/1270x720/vLg9NHpt5kABOX5n.mp4?tag=12)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on November 26, 2021, 11:16:29 am
All the opposition parties are in disarray.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 26, 2021, 01:02:44 pm
All the opposition parties are in disarray.
Like the electorate we have crap to work with. It's like our governance is still in the coal-age when we need rechargeable-electric.

Citizen's assemblies...PR...drawing names from a hat.... I've resorted to throwing darts at a chart when fish get really scarce.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 27, 2021, 01:40:56 pm
whoa now waldo - isn't that member kimmy?

(https://i.imgur.com/VOMoMY9.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 30, 2021, 12:59:47 am
the CPC/O'Toole dance continues! Covid related stats suggest legitimate vaccination exemptions total between 1-to-3 persons per a 100,000 populace... and those exemptions would, typically, be limited to those who are at risk of a severe allergic reaction or at an elevated risk of developing myocarditis (a rare heart condition).

since CPC/O'Toole continue to refuse to state the actual number of CPC MPs claiming/stating they hold a medical exemption, speculation continues - to as high as "more than 20+ CPC MPs who haven't received COVID vaccinations". State the number CPC/O'Toole; end the speculation! What are you waiting for... what are you afraid of?
(https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/politics/political-opinion/2021/09/04/prime-minister-erin-otoole-try-that-one-on-for-size/erin_otoole.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/a7jz2bf.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 01, 2021, 04:36:53 am
oh my waldo! Yesterday, deputy leader of the Conservative Party... deputy leader of the Opposition - Candice Bergen; making a mask wearing statement in the HOC! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1465724036218908677/pu/vid/290x218/aGNeQ8FGDgcuqOz5.mp4?tag=12)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 02, 2021, 05:32:30 pm
recently, led by moron-in-chief O'Toole, every time CPC MPs finished speaking in the HOC, they would finish with the word, "justinflation"! This 'word play' was, to them, such great fun, with lots of hooting and guffawing by the nattering Conservative members each time the word was uttered!

this moronic display was a culmination of the weeks long targeting of PM Trudeau by CPC/O'Toole and Finance Shadow Minister #PigeonPierre - with their repeated attempts to lay the blame for Canada's increased inflation rate on PM Trudeau and Liberal government policies/actions. Of course this nonsense was so easily dispatched by those experts from across the political spectrum, including prominent conservative pundits and the most profiled Canadian economists who stated the current inflation increase has almost nothing to do with the federal government’s policies. Notwithstanding current inflation is a global phenomenon, CPC/O'Toole & Poilievre would have Canadians believe PM Trudeau's reach and influence is, apparently, global in impacting upon and acting to create the same increased inflation rates found in the U.S., in Germany, in the UK, etc.!

of course the real causes of the current increased inflation reflect upon and are being driven by, in the near term, the pandemic and its impact on everything from oil and gas prices to supply chains. And, of course, one of the more prolific longer term drivers of inflation is climate change - something CPC/O'Toole wants nothing to do with in terms of acknowledging the threat and economic impacts of! More pointedly, the CPC/O'Toole & Poilievre are wanting to emphasize one of their key perceived reasons for increased inflation as one tied to Liberal government deficit pandemic spending in support of Canadians... certainly something that, according to #PigeonPierre, would never happen if Conservatives were 'in charge'! Who can forget this spanking Minister Freeland gave Poilievre in that very regard, where he outright stated:

Quote from: CPC Finance Shadow Minister, Pierre Poilievre
You may want to address COVID-19 with big fat government programs; we're conservatives, we don't believe in that!

Deputy Prime Minister Freeland reminds the CPC MP for Carleton, Pierre Poilievre, what he said when asked what support the government should offer to Canadians hurt by the pandemic: (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1309527370781523968/pu/vid/1272x720/7_AsH2XuTTuV4Z-Q.mp4?tag=10)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 05, 2021, 12:47:47 pm
recently, led by moron-in-chief O'Toole, every time CPC MPs finished speaking in the HOC, they would finish with the word, "Justinflation"! This 'word play' was, to them, such great fun, with lots of hooting and guffawing by the nattering Conservative members each time the word was uttered!

seems 'Liberal twitter' (*snort*) has pushed back with a couple of countering, at times, trending hashtags: the waldo is quite partial to #ErinflationLie
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 05, 2021, 01:04:44 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/NCigXga.png)

#JustinCredible  ... oh my waldo, you actually went there! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 05, 2021, 04:00:51 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/NCigXga.png)

#JustinCredible  ... oh my waldo, you actually went there! LOL!

Too bad gas and food cost so much thanks in part to the carbon tax that he hasn't paused because of pandemic inflation and of course he's done almost nothing to stop housing price explosions.  Trudeau says he cares about the middle class but he doesn't because he has no idea how they live since he's was raised as a silver-spooned prince who cares about the climate and gender issues far more than blue collar economic issues.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 05, 2021, 05:16:54 pm
Too bad gas and food cost so much thanks in part to the carbon tax that he hasn't paused because of pandemic inflation...

hey now 'Nipples', surely with such a direct, specific and targeted statement as you've made here, you MUST be able to speak to actual costs, to actual numbers - yes? While you're scrambling to answer this request, don't forget to include (as applicable) carbon tax rebates into the mix, hey! Sure you can, sure you can!

equally, with all the inflation talk emphasis on global pricing... global policies impacting upon gas prices, I'm sure you're able to delineate these global impacting costs from localized carbon tax impacts - yes? More pointedly, again with all the inflation talk emphasis on the pandemic (and climate change) affects to supply chains, I'm sure you're able to delineate these from localized carbon tax impacts - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on December 08, 2021, 12:12:20 pm
Diplomatic Boycott of China Olympics is ON.

Thoughts ?

Is this a signal of a change in direction overall ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on December 08, 2021, 01:19:18 pm

Diplomatic Boycott of China Olympics is ON.

Thoughts ?

Is this a signal of a change in direction overall ?
None whatsoever. It is to tyranny as blah blah blah is to climate change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 08, 2021, 01:39:07 pm
Diplomatic Boycott of China Olympics is ON.

Thoughts ?

Is this a signal of a change in direction overall ?

I think Chinese gov put it well:
Quote
"The Chinese Embassy in Washington also responded, tweeting, "In fact, no one would care about whether these people come or not, and it has no impact whatsoever on the #Beijing2022 to be successfully held."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 08, 2021, 02:28:54 pm
Diplomatic Boycott of China Olympics is ON.

Thoughts ?

Is this a signal of a change in direction overall ?

Agree with Eyeball.  It’s a half-measure.  We’ll also be seen as an American lapdog just following what they do.  Smarter move would have been to get a coalition of boycotting nations and announced it together.

A full boycott would be better.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 11, 2021, 12:19:14 am
(https://i.imgur.com/qwVO5uj.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 11, 2021, 11:56:58 am
c'mon waldo, now you're just piling on!

(https://i.imgur.com/g1uAw7u.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 12, 2021, 02:35:21 pm
early learning & child-care agreements signed between the Liberal federal government and:

=> July 8 - British Columbia;
=> July 12 - Nova Scotia;
=> July 23 - Yukon;
=> July 27 - P.E.I.;
=> July 28 - Newfoundland and Labrador;
=> August 5 - Quebec
=> August 9 - Manitoba
=> August 13 - Saskatchewan
=> November 14 - Alberta
=> December 13 - New Brunswick
=> December 13 - NWT


(https://i.imgur.com/1Apkefl.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on December 16, 2021, 01:33:18 am
whoa now waldo - isn't that member kimmy?

(https://i.imgur.com/VOMoMY9.jpg)

How droll. 

Meanwhile, when is the long-awaited "gun buyback" going to happen? Reminder, GIMME MY GOD DAMNED MONEY JUSTIN YOU FUCKEN DEADBEAT I'M GETTING REAL TIRED OF YOU DUCKING ME JUSTIN YOU BEST HAVE THE CASH NEXT TIME I SEE YOU

Did they lose the plans for the buyback in the same pile of papers on Patty Hajdu's desk where the plans for a national pharmacare program disappeared? Are they having a really hard time finding a way to award the contract to a Liberal-connected company without the ethics commissioner noticing? Katie's husband's company isn't interested? The Kielburger brothers aren't exactly busy these days, maybe they can squeeze it in?

The amnesty will expire in a few months; they'll have to either extend it or come and arrest a whole lot of people.

JT and the Sunshine Gang can't find the cash to compensate gun owners for the confiscation of our property, but they've scrounged through the couch-cushions and apparently come up with a billion dollars to fund provinces and cities who confiscate handguns.  Will the chumps in Victoria be so bold?

Although the Gabriel Wortman rampage was the justification for this mass confiscation of property, the details of said rampage remain guarded as if they were a matter of national security.


 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 16, 2021, 03:44:11 pm
whoa now waldo - isn't that member kimmy?

(https://i.imgur.com/VOMoMY9.jpg)
How droll. 

Meanwhile, when is the long-awaited "gun buyback" going to happen? Reminder, GIMME MY GOD DAMNED MONEY JUSTIN YOU FUCKEN DEADBEAT I'M GETTING REAL TIRED OF YOU DUCKING ME JUSTIN YOU BEST HAVE THE CASH NEXT TIME I SEE YOU

The amnesty will expire in a few months; they'll have to either extend it or come and arrest a whole lot of people.

JT and the Sunshine Gang can't find the cash to compensate gun owners for the confiscation of our property, but they've scrounged through the couch-cushions and apparently come up with a billion dollars to fund provinces and cities who confiscate handguns.  Will the chumps in Victoria be so bold?

Although the Gabriel Wortman rampage was the justification for this mass confiscation of property, the details of said rampage remain guarded as if they were a matter of national security.

member kimmy, are you serious... gunnies have at least... at least... 6 court challenges to the related legislation introducing firearm reclassification, to the buyback program, etc.. And you somehow expect the federal government to proceed while ignoring these active legislation challenges? Surely you can't be that stoopid - yes?

setting that oh so 'hot' pic of the gunnie girls aside, care to comment on the heelarious name of the CCFR... the sadsack org that has the temerity to claim Canadians have Firearm Rights? Perhaps you could also comment on its most boisterous positioning for US-style gun policies for Canada; most notably open carry in rural areas and concealed carry in Canadian cities. Those are your peeps, hey member kimmy!

as for the Nova Scotia multiple shootings/killings, again, surely you're not so stoopid as to expect details/full transparency in the face of:
=> an ongoing Public Inquiry that is scheduled to deliver its findings 'mid 2022'
=> ongoing/active police investigations
=> multiple lawsuits
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 16, 2021, 04:35:58 pm
Katie's husband's company isn't interested?

whaaa! How surprising you lower yourself to the level of perpetuating yet another CPC/O'Toole bullshyte claim of conflict of interest... this one presuming to snare the Chief of Staff to PM Trudeau (Katie Telford) and her husband Rob Silver. As it turns out:
=> Ms. Telford circumvented any potential charges of conflict of interest by formally creating a so-called 'conflict of interest screen' to prevent her direct involvement in anything to do with the mortgage finance company Silver works for (MCAP) interfacing with the PMO
=> the Ethics Commissioner dismissed CPC/O'Toole allegations of a conflict of interest against Ms. Telford and against Silver/MCAP... calling those allegations "speculative" and without "a factual basis to support" them.
=> the Federal Lobbying Commissioner cleared Silver of any wrongdoing

c'mon member kimmy - be better, do better! Don't just be a parroting mouthpiece for bullshyte claims from Conservatives/CPC!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2021, 11:20:59 am
early learning & child-care agreements signed between the Liberal federal government and:

=> July 8 - British Columbia;
=> July 12 - Nova Scotia;
=> July 23 - Yukon;
=> July 27 - P.E.I.;
=> July 28 - Newfoundland and Labrador;
=> August 5 - Quebec
=> August 9 - Manitoba
=> August 13 - Saskatchewan
=> November 14 - Alberta
=> December 13 - New Brunswick

=> December 15 - NWT

(https://i.imgur.com/b9sGyOC.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on January 16, 2022, 05:15:28 pm
member kimmy, are you serious... gunnies have at least... at least... 6 court challenges to the related legislation introducing firearm reclassification, to the buyback program, etc.. And you somehow expect the federal government to proceed while ignoring these active legislation challenges? Surely you can't be that stoopid - yes?

Court challenges doesn't excuse them from not even having the program designed yet.

Quote
“Government officials are currently in the process of refining requirements and developing program design and implementation options for a buyback program,” said the RCMP’s media-relations branch.

https://ipolitics.ca/2021/12/24/most-owners-are-holding-onto-their-banned-weapons-before-buyout/

It has been 21 months, and they're still at the drawing board. Given that they were promising a gun ban well before the Nova Scotia shooting rampage, they've actually had much longer than 21 months to plan it.  Court challenges isn't an excuse.

setting that oh so 'hot' pic of the gunnie girls aside, care to comment on the heelarious name of the CCFR... the sadsack org that has the temerity to claim Canadians have Firearm Rights? Perhaps you could also comment on its most boisterous positioning for US-style gun policies for Canada; most notably open carry in rural areas and concealed carry in Canadian cities. Those are your peeps, hey member kimmy!

I'm not affiliated with that group.

as for the Nova Scotia multiple shootings/killings, again, surely you're not so stoopid as to expect details/full transparency in the face of:
=> an ongoing Public Inquiry that is scheduled to deliver its findings 'mid 2022'
=> ongoing/active police investigations
=> multiple lawsuits

The public inquiry is due in November 2022.  Two and a half years. They originally tried to do it as an internal review rather than a public inquiry, which created the appearance that they had things to hide. They only changed their minds after considerable public outcry.  What little information we've been able to obtain so far has been heavily redacted. The investigation into the RCMP officers who shot up the firehall was a white-wash. None of this gives any confidence that the public inquiry will produce anything more than platitudes.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 18, 2022, 05:31:52 pm
"Hey Canada, the government loves you and we love your children and we're ready to help raise your young children better than you can".

Suck my balls Trudeau.  Young parents can't afford a house and you're worried about daycare??????  STFU and control the banks and real estate developers and make housing and food etc affordable so people can afford their own daycare if they want it.  What a moron piece of crap idiot.  Is oxygen the next thing to spike in price?  Fix the root problem you sociopathic corporate butt-kisser.  The working class hates you.  They think you're such an idiot that the CPC, who are filled with knuckle-dragging psycho idiots, got more votes than your party the last 2 elections.  Too bad you've never had to actually worry about a mortgage or a food bill in your entire privileged rich boy life you moron.  This frat boy wouldn't know a kitchen-table issue if it hit him in the face.  (Legalizing marijuana isn't a kitchen table issue, it's a frat boy issue).  But of course he does have people look after his kids for free so I guess he can relate.  ROLLS EYES.  Want to buy my vote.  MAKE MY LIFE BETTER INSTEAD OF MAKING ME A GOVERNMENT DEPENDENT YOU FOOL.

Everyone here is invited to my party on May 14th 2097 when i'll have finally paid off my mortgage and can retire in a longterm care home that's run like garbage and rife with disease and abuse.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on January 18, 2022, 06:37:18 pm
"Hey Canada, the government loves you and we love your children and we're ready to help raise your young children better than you can".

Suck my balls Trudeau.  Young parents can't afford a house and you're worried about daycare??????  STFU and control the banks and real estate developers and make housing and food etc affordable so people can afford their own daycare if they want it.  What a moron piece of crap idiot.  Is oxygen the next thing to spike in price?  Fix the root problem you sociopathic corporate butt-kisser.  The working class hates you.  They think you're such an idiot that the CPC, who are filled with knuckle-dragging psycho idiots, got more votes than your party the last 2 elections.  Too bad you've never had to actually worry about a mortgage or a food bill in your entire privileged rich boy life you moron.  This frat boy wouldn't know a kitchen-table issue if it hit him in the face.  (Legalizing marijuana isn't a kitchen table issue, it's a frat boy issue).  But of course he does have people look after his kids for free so I guess he can relate.  ROLLS EYES.  Want to buy my vote.  MAKE MY LIFE BETTER INSTEAD OF MAKING ME A GOVERNMENT DEPENDENT YOU FOOL.

Everyone here is invited to my party on May 14th 2097 when i'll have finally paid off my mortgage and can retire in a longterm care home that's run like garbage and rife with disease and abuse.
This sums up well most people’s feelings of Trudeau.  This asshat continues to ramp up immigration at very high levels, without a care as to what it does to the housing market.  Makes the imbalance between supply and demand worse.  Can’t afford to buy a house?  Too bad.  The ratio of doctors to patients keeps going up and up and up.  Doesn’t care.  Same with the ratio of nurses to patients.  Doesn’t care.  Can’t find a family doctor accepting new patients?  Doesn’t care.  Increases his China loving carbon taxes during a pandemic, making inflation worse and increasing the costs of everything.  Doesn’t care.  He’s truly a piece of ****.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 18, 2022, 08:01:00 pm
This sums up well most people’s feelings of Trudeau.  This asshat continues to ramp up immigration at very high levels, without a care as to what it does to the housing market.  Makes the imbalance between supply and demand worse.  Can’t afford to buy a house?  Too bad.  The ratio of doctors to patients keeps going up and up and up.  Doesn’t care.  Same with the ratio of nurses to patients.  Doesn’t care.  Can’t find a family doctor accepting new patients?  Doesn’t care.  Increases his China loving carbon taxes during a pandemic, making inflation worse and increasing the costs of everything.  Doesn’t care.  He’s truly a piece of ****.

F*** him, I don't need his free goodies, I just need him to make sure i'm not butt-**** by corporate Canada that he and his cronies shmooze with so I can take care of myself.  But he'll keep running up the deficit, he doesn't care, it's easy to spend money when it isn't yours.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 18, 2022, 08:19:29 pm
"Hey Canada, the government loves you and we love your children and we're ready to help raise your young children better than you can".

Suck my balls Trudeau.  Young parents can't afford a house and you're worried about daycare??????  STFU and control the banks and real estate developers and make housing and food etc affordable so people can afford their own daycare if they want it.  What a moron piece of crap idiot.  Is oxygen the next thing to spike in price?  Fix the root problem you sociopathic corporate butt-kisser.  The working class hates you.  They think you're such an idiot that the CPC, who are filled with knuckle-dragging psycho idiots, got more votes than your party the last 2 elections.  Too bad you've never had to actually worry about a mortgage or a food bill in your entire privileged rich boy life you moron.  This frat boy wouldn't know a kitchen-table issue if it hit him in the face.  (Legalizing marijuana isn't a kitchen table issue, it's a frat boy issue).  But of course he does have people look after his kids for free so I guess he can relate.  ROLLS EYES.  Want to buy my vote.  MAKE MY LIFE BETTER INSTEAD OF MAKING ME A GOVERNMENT DEPENDENT YOU FOOL.

Everyone here is invited to my party on May 14th 2097 when i'll have finally paid off my mortgage and can retire in a longterm care home that's run like garbage and rife with disease and abuse.

Cool rant, brah’!

Shady is an ally. 

The rest of us have no fuckin’ idea what you’re going on about.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 18, 2022, 08:32:49 pm
Cool rant, brah’!

Shady is an ally. 

The rest of us have no fuckin’ idea what you’re going on about.

^^DUMB TAG
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on January 18, 2022, 08:44:56 pm
^^DUMB TAG

Seriously….  Is there any context you could perhaps provide?

Your post was so stupid that I couldn’t even, in good conscience, dumb-tag it.  It would be like calling someone with Down’s Syndrome the ‘R’ word.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on January 19, 2022, 07:13:54 am
 
Quote
Hey Canada, the government loves you and we love your children and we're ready to help raise your young children better than you can".

Suck my balls Trudeau.  Young parents can't afford a house and you're worried about daycare??????  STFU and control the banks and real estate developers and make housing and food etc affordable so people can afford their own daycare if they want it.  What a moron piece of crap idiot.  Is oxygen the next thing to spike in price?  Fix the root problem you sociopathic corporate butt-kisser.  The working class hates you.  They think you're such an idiot that the CPC, who are filled with knuckle-dragging psycho idiots, got more votes than your party the last 2 elections.  Too bad you've never had to actually worry about a mortgage or a food bill in your entire privileged rich boy life you moron.  This frat boy wouldn't know a kitchen-table issue if it hit him in the face.  (Legalizing marijuana isn't a kitchen table issue, it's a frat boy issue).  But of course he does have people look after his kids for free so I guess he can relate.  ROLLS EYES.  Want to buy my vote.  MAKE MY LIFE BETTER INSTEAD OF MAKING ME A GOVERNMENT DEPENDENT YOU FOOL.

Everyone here is invited to my party on May 14th 2097 when i'll have finally paid off my mortgage and can retire in a longterm care home that's run like garbage and rife with disease and abuse.

Daycare for 2 kids is more than rent.  Daycare is significant and a lot easier to deal with than housing prices.  Daycare costs impact the working poor also.

also ... too much angry ...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 19, 2022, 09:06:05 am

Daycare for 2 kids is more than rent.  Daycare is significant and a lot easier to deal with than housing prices.  Daycare costs impact the working poor also.

also ... too much angry ...

I had to make it exciting to read.   Angertainment lol.

I think if they want to spend that money the gov should take all that money spent on the subsidies and just give it to parents and let them do with it as they please and as incentive for having kids.  But imo it's much better to tackle root problems like housing, and slow immigration until housing supply can catch up with demand.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: segnosaur on January 19, 2022, 11:17:35 pm

Daycare for 2 kids is more than rent.  Daycare is significant and a lot easier to deal with than housing prices.  Daycare costs impact the working poor also.
I think one of the problems is not that the government is providing daycare to help the working poor, but that people see the government providing day care to people who may not necessarily need it.

Even with subsidies or government provision, there may not be enough slots available for everyone. Or its possible that most government-sponsored day care will only be available during 9-5 work days, and those working nights will have to find alternatives.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 25, 2022, 08:06:50 pm
demanding both chairs (as co-chairs) of the investigating committee be Conservatives, quite obviously, Conservatives/CPC are desperate to control an investigation that will clearly highlight their support and encouragement for protesters, the illegal occupation of Ottawa and the illegal border blockades! Government House Leader says:

(https://i.imgur.com/h8gB4fM.gif)

Quote from: Rachel Aiello - CTVNews.ca
According to a copy of a draft motion being considered by the parties that was obtained by CTV News, the government proposal with which the Conservatives take issue suggests there would be seven MPs on the committee: Three Liberals, two Conservatives, one Bloc Quebecois MP, and one NDP MP. As well, there would be four senators, with their affiliation not specified.

The Liberals have indicated there would be one senator from the Independent Senators Group, one senator from the Conservative Party caucus, one senator from the Progressive Senate Group, and one senator from the Canadian Senators group.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 03, 2022, 11:42:08 pm
demanding that both chairs (as co-chairs) of the investigating committee be Conservatives, quite obviously, Conservatives/CPC are desperate to control an investigation that will clearly highlight their support and encouragement for protesters, the illegal occupation of Ottawa and the illegal border blockades!

Quote from: Rachel Aiello - CTVNews.ca
According to a copy of a draft motion being considered by the parties that was obtained by CTV News, the government proposal with which the Conservatives take issue suggests there would be seven MPs on the committee: Three Liberals, two Conservatives, one Bloc Quebecois MP, and one NDP MP. As well, there would be four senators, with their affiliation not specified.

The Liberals have indicated there would be one senator from the Independent Senators Group, one senator from the Conservative Party caucus, one senator from the Progressive Senate Group, and one senator from the Canadian Senators group.


only Conservatives vote against the government proposal --- House votes in favour of Emergencies Act oversight committee (https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2022/02/28/house-votes-in-favour-of-emergencies-act-oversight-committee.html?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMedia&utm_campaign=Federalpolitics&utm_content=emergenciesactvote)
Quote
The House voted 214-115 Wednesday evening in favour of a government proposal that will see three Liberal MPs, two Conservatives, one New Democrat and one Bloc Québécois sit on the committee, along with four senators.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 07, 2022, 10:34:05 pm
What a country we live in:  https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-mps-across-the-country-vote-to-maintain-an-unfair-electoral-system/wcm/b9440514-1cba-43d4-95be-d7ba24f8a75f/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8659357/canada-quebec-commons-seats/amp/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 21, 2022, 09:15:25 pm
just don't call it a 'coalition' - thank you very much => Liberals, NDP leadership have tentative deal to support Trudeau government to 2025 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeu-jagmeet-singh-working-together-1.6392756)

(https://i.imgur.com/efTGuYV.jpg)

Quote
The leadership of the Liberals and the NDP have reached a tentative agreement that would see the NDP support the Liberal government to keep it in power until 2025 in exchange for movement on key NDP priorities, CBC News has learned.

The so-called confidence-and-supply agreement still needs the support of NDP MPs who are meeting late Monday night, according to multiple sources who spoke to CBC News on condition they not be named due to the sensitive nature of the discussions.

The agreement would see the NDP back the Liberals in confidence votes. In return, the Liberals will follow through on some elements of national pharmacare and dental care programs — programs that have long been promoted by the NDP.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 21, 2022, 10:11:10 pm
I wish it was until 2035.  Maybe 2045.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 21, 2022, 10:13:40 pm
I'm amazed the NDP actually did something strategically smart for a change. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: BC_cheque on March 22, 2022, 12:12:46 am
Jug looks like the cat that ate the canary.

And Waldo is happy about this??
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 22, 2022, 12:31:28 am
Jug looks like the cat that ate the canary.

And Waldo is happy about this??

Waldo was against the NDP, until he loved the NDP.  Waldo is a true believer in anything the Libs do and say. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 22, 2022, 01:33:22 am
NDP has been supporting and holding up the Libs in Parliament for years.  How is this different?  The butt munching is on the books now?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 22, 2022, 05:34:37 am
NDP has been supporting and holding up the Libs in Parliament for years.  How is this different?

over the last couple of years NDP Singh's actions/statements were an ever increasing embarrassment for the NDP/Singh - after all that 'tik-tocking' nonsense the NDP only gained 1 seat in the 2021 election.

initial CPC response also seems quite supportive - "backdoor socialism" indeed!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FObD7I_WUAAI-98?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on March 22, 2022, 06:51:14 am


initial CPC response also seems quite supportive - "backdoor socialism" indeed!

She's seriously that clueless about how parliamentary democracy works? I doubt it. She's just deliberately manipulating her stupid base, which she is confident has no clue how it works.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 08:46:32 am
over the last couple of years NDP Singh's actions/statements were an ever increasing embarrassment for the NDP/Singh - after all that 'tik-tocking' nonsense the NDP only gained 1 seat in the 2021 election.

initial CPC response also seems quite supportive - "backdoor socialism" indeed!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FObD7I_WUAAI-98?format=jpg&name=medium)
I have to agree with waldo, Singh has been an embarrassment over the past couple of years.  What’s great about this is that when the next election does take place, the stink will be on both of them, they’re now joined at the hip.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 22, 2022, 10:13:49 am
initial CPC response also seems quite supportive - "backdoor socialism" indeed!

Don't threaten me with a good time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on March 22, 2022, 12:12:48 pm
It does seem like a big deal though. Pharmacare and dental care will be game changers for a lot of people. Hopefully their coalition goes so well they agree not to run against each other in current CPC ridings.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 12:39:54 pm
It does seem like a big deal though. Pharmacare and dental care will be game changers for a lot of people. Hopefully their coalition goes so well they agree not to run against each other in current CPC ridings.
Yes more “free” stuff.  Maybe our deficits will be $2 trillion by then!  And maybe you’ll get your government funded butt wiper as well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 22, 2022, 01:16:38 pm
Yes more “free” stuff.  Maybe our deficits will be $2 trillion by then!  And maybe you’ll get your government funded butt wiper as well.

I love when the mask slips and you show how few f*cks you have to give about the working class. I really hope the CPC runs with this message that poor families don't deserve affordable dental and pharmacare.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: BC_cheque on March 22, 2022, 01:17:21 pm
It does seem like a big deal though. Pharmacare and dental care will be game changers for a lot of people. Hopefully their coalition goes so well they agree not to run against each other in current CPC ridings.

Pharmacare and dental are huge important but I’d rather see us fix our existing health issues first. Lack of hospital beds, long waiting periods for surgery/MRI, more family doctors and nurses.

These two want to jump to the next before fixing what we’ve got and CPC just want to privatize as the answer.

We’re screwed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 22, 2022, 01:19:34 pm
I love when the mask slips and you show how few f*cks you have to give about the working class. I really hope the CPC runs with this message that poor families don't deserve affordable dental and pharmacare.

Maybe make the existing health care system work better before we print more money to introduce programs we can afford out of revenues.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 22, 2022, 01:23:58 pm
Pharmacare and dental are huge important but I’d rather see us fix our existing health issues first. Lack of hospital beds, long waiting periods for surgery/MRI, more family doctors and nurses.

These two want to jump to the next before fixing what we’ve got and CPC just want to privatize as the answer.

We’re screwed.

Those are mainly provincial responsibilities, national dental/pharmacare doesn't preclude improvements in those areas. Also, consider that having universal coverage for pharma will actually help reduce the strain on the health system and save a crap ton of money.

Maybe make the existing health care system work better before we print more money to introduce programs we can afford out of revenues.

Why not do both?

It's completely absurd that the government will pay to fix a broken finger but not a broken tooth.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 02:12:59 pm
I love when the mask slips and you show how few f*cks you have to give about the working class. I really hope the CPC runs with this message that poor families don't deserve affordable dental and pharmacare.
Lol, says the person making everything more expensive for poor and working class families.  They wouldn’t need your government hand outs if it wasn’t for your shitty policies.  But you think you’re doing good for people! 😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 02:18:42 pm
Those are mainly provincial responsibilities, national dental/pharmacare doesn't preclude improvements in those areas. Also, consider that having universal coverage for pharma will actually help reduce the strain on the health system and save a crap ton of money.

Why not do both?

It's completely absurd that the government will pay to fix a broken finger but not a broken tooth.
Why not try doing one before thinking about both?  Yes, we're going to save a crap ton of money by initiating two new massive health entitlements!  Said no sane person ever.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 22, 2022, 02:27:17 pm
Pharmacare and dental are huge important but I’d rather see us fix our existing health issues first. Lack of hospital beds, long waiting periods for surgery/MRI, more family doctors and nurses.

These two want to jump to the next before fixing what we’ve got and CPC just want to privatize as the answer.

We’re screwed.

Don’t let perfection be the enemy of the good.  The system would be better with dental and pharmacare, regardless of the current issues.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 22, 2022, 02:35:24 pm
Lol, says the person making everything more expensive for poor and working class families. They wouldn’t need your government hand outs if it wasn’t for your shitty policies.  But you think you’re doing good for people! 😂

You must have me confused with a major corporation engaging in price-fixing and gouging. But anyway, this is more Shiddy whataboutism.

Why not try doing one before thinking about both? 

Again: things like wait times, physician and nurse recruitment and retention etc are provincial matters and addressing those does not preclude actions on any other issues.

Quote
Yes, we're going to save a crap ton of money by initiating two new massive health entitlements!  Said no sane person ever.

The Final Report of the Advisory Council on the Implementation of National Pharmacare in 2019 estimated that covering the medication costs for just three diseases —diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and chronic respiratory conditions — would result in 220,000 fewer visits to emergency departments and 90,000 fewer hospitalizations annually — a potential savings of up to $1.2 billion a year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 03:01:28 pm
You must have me confused with a major corporation engaging in price-fixing and gouging. But anyway, this is more Shiddy whataboutism.

Again: things like wait times, physician and nurse recruitment and retention etc are provincial matters and addressing those does not preclude actions on any other issues.

The Final Report of the Advisory Council on the Implementation of National Pharmacare in 2019 estimated that covering the medication costs for just three diseases —diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and chronic respiratory conditions — would result in 220,000 fewer visits to emergency departments and 90,000 fewer hospitalizations annually — a potential savings of up to $1.2 billion a year.
No, I'm talking about your carbon taxes, your oil and gas restrictions, your unlimited immigration policies which continue to put high demand on housing, etc.  Every thing you do makes everything more expensive.  And your solution is government hand outs, instead of just ending your shitty policies.    Regardless, we can't even pay for the services we have now, and now you people want two brand new massive entitlements.  Is it your goal to bankrupt Canada?  Do you think that makes us more prosperous?  You people are like children with no concept of money and budgets.  And what you've laid out in terms of chronic disease is a perfect defence of my obesity passports.  Obesity drives much of our chronic health care problems.  It's time for passports and a fat tax!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 22, 2022, 03:45:32 pm
No, I'm talking about your carbon taxes, your oil and gas restrictions, your unlimited immigration policies which continue to put high demand on housing, etc.  Every thing you do makes everything more expensive.  And your solution is government hand outs, instead of just ending your shitty policies.

This is like watching a monkey throw its own feces around the zoo enclosure. I'll just say this: oil prices, food prices, housing are getting more expensive everywhere even in places that don't have the policies you're filling your diaper over, which suggests that there are forces at work that are bigger than "carbon tax and immigration bad".

Quote
Regardless, we can't even pay for the services we have now, and now you people want two brand new massive entitlements.  Is it your goal to bankrupt Canada?  Do you think that makes us more prosperous?  You people are like children with no concept of money and budgets.

Yeah I do think putting more money in working class pockets and keeping people healthy makes us more prosperous as a nation, crazy that you don't, but then you also don't believe in washing your hands.

Quote
And what you've laid out in terms of chronic disease is a perfect defence of my obesity passports.  Obesity drives much of our chronic health care problems.  It's time for passports and a fat tax!

"Punitive and intrusive big government policies are bad unless they target people I find icky."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 03:52:08 pm
This is like watching a monkey throw its own feces around the zoo enclosure. I'll just say this: oil prices, food prices, housing are getting more expensive everywhere even in places that don't have the policies you're filling your diaper over, which suggests that there are forces at work that are bigger than "carbon tax and immigration bad".

Yeah I do think putting more money in working class pockets and keeping people healthy makes us more prosperous as a nation, crazy that you don't, but then tyou also don't beleive in washing your hands.

"Punitive and intrusive big government policies are bad unless they target people I find icky."
You're part of the ilk that turned Ontario into a **** show.  When it comes to fiscal matters, you people need to sit down and shut the hell up.  You've already caused enough damage that's going to take generations to dig out of.  Trudeau's doing to Canada what Liberal's did to Ontario over the past 10+ years.

With twice the debt of California, Ontario is now the world’s most indebted sub-sovereign
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/with-twice-the-debt-of-california-ontario-is-now-the-worlds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 22, 2022, 04:02:25 pm
You're part of the ilk that turned Ontario into a **** show.  When it comes to fiscal matters, you people need to sit down and shut the hell up.  You've already caused enough damage that's going to take generations to dig out of.  Trudeau's doing to Canada what Liberal's did to Ontario over the past 10+ years.

With twice the debt of California, Ontario is now the world’s most indebted sub-sovereign
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/with-twice-the-debt-of-california-ontario-is-now-the-worlds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower

Looks like you've got at least three more years of Liberal/NDP government, try to ration your copium supplies.

FWIW, here is the reality of the status quo that you want to maintain:

● About 7.5 million citizens—one in five Canadians—either don’t have prescription drug insurance or have inadequate insurance to cover their medication needs.

● One in five households reported a family member who, in the past year, had not taken a prescribed medicine due to its cost;

● Nearly 3 million Canadians said they were not able to afford one or more of their prescription drugs in the past year;

● People with insurance also struggle to afford their prescriptions because of copayments, coinsurance and deductibles. Of the 3 million people who could not afford their medications, 38 per cent had private insurance coverage and 21 per cent had public coverage but it did not cover enough of their costs;

● Almost 1 million Canadians cut back on food or home heating in order to pay for their medication; and

● Almost 1 million Canadians borrowed money to pay for prescription drugs.

*note these numbers are from 2019 and are likely to be higher today
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 22, 2022, 05:46:43 pm
I'm not against pharma or dental care generally but where is all this money going to come from?

We're already dealing with covid deficits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on March 22, 2022, 06:04:09 pm
I'm not against pharma or dental care generally but where is all this money going to come from? .
It's not like Canadians weren't going to be paying for these things. And it's not like Big Pharma wasn't already trying to get as much money as they could
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 22, 2022, 08:32:58 pm
I'm not against pharma or dental care generally but where is all this money going to come from?

We're already dealing with covid deficits.

By taxing the wealthy and corporate profits, I hope. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 22, 2022, 09:13:26 pm
By taxing the wealthy and corporate profits, I hope.

Well that's what I mean, they'd either have to raise taxes or put in on the debt.

Raise taxes too much though and you get capital flight like all the businesses leaving California and going to Texas/Tennessee etc.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 22, 2022, 09:18:20 pm
Well that's what I mean, they'd either have to raise taxes or put in on the debt.

Raise taxes too much though and you get capital flight like all the businesses leaving California and going to Texas/Tennessee etc.

This is Canada. What happens in The USA is no more relevant than what happens in socialist Nordic countries, who get along fine with more complete medical coverage with higher taxes.

Plus, you’re regurgitating a right-wing myth.   
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/09/leaving-california-exodus-evidence-myth

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 09:35:02 pm
Well that's what I mean, they'd either have to raise taxes or put in on the debt.

Raise taxes too much though and you get capital flight like all the businesses leaving California and going to Texas/Tennessee etc.
Not to mention that businesses pass increased costs on to the consumers.  Regardless, I thought taxing the rich was how we were already paying for things?  But we’re facing massive deficits trying to pay for existing services, let alone huge new entitlements.  These people are not serious people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 22, 2022, 09:37:03 pm
Looks like you've got at least three more years of Liberal/NDP government, try to ration your copium supplies.

FWIW, here is the reality of the status quo that you want to maintain:

● About 7.5 million citizens—one in five Canadians—either don’t have prescription drug insurance or have inadequate insurance to cover their medication needs.

● One in five households reported a family member who, in the past year, had not taken a prescribed medicine due to its cost;

● Nearly 3 million Canadians said they were not able to afford one or more of their prescription drugs in the past year;

● People with insurance also struggle to afford their prescriptions because of copayments, coinsurance and deductibles. Of the 3 million people who could not afford their medications, 38 per cent had private insurance coverage and 21 per cent had public coverage but it did not cover enough of their costs;

● Almost 1 million Canadians cut back on food or home heating in order to pay for their medication; and

● Almost 1 million Canadians borrowed money to pay for prescription drugs.

*note these numbers are from 2019 and are likely to be higher today
And it’s your shitty policies that make all of that more expensive.  You have the **** nerve to talk about increased home heating and food costs?  It’s your **** energy taxes that makes EVERYTHING cost more.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 22, 2022, 09:56:39 pm
This is Canada. What happens in The USA is no more relevant than what happens in socialist Nordic countries, who get along fine with more complete medical coverage with higher taxes.

Plus, you’re regurgitating a right-wing myth.   
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/09/leaving-california-exodus-evidence-myth

Businesses and rich people like going to jurisdictions with lower tax rates, cheaper labour etc.  This isn't an American phenomena.  People like money, businesses like profit.

Nordic countries are not located next to the USA so they don't compete with them as directly as Canada does.  As an aside, Canada also lost a lot of doctors to the US after they socialized medicine because of this competition.  Nordic countries don't have these problems.  Hopefully this wouldn't happen with universal dental, rates are pretty standardized.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2022, 08:05:43 am
geezaz waldo! CPC Conservatives have their marching orders to use the term 'coalition' whenever they can! CPC leader Bergen has completely lost it - wiggin' out, big time!

remedial waldo & the distinction between a 'Confidence & Supply Agreement' (which this is) and a 'Coalition' (which this isn't):

(https://i.imgur.com/X4taYF4.jpg)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 23, 2022, 08:46:05 am
geezaz waldo! CPC Conservatives have their marching orders to use the term 'coalition' whenever they can! CPC leader Bergen has completely lost it - wiggin' out, big time!

remedial waldo & the distinction between a 'Confidence & Supply Agreement' (which this is) and a 'Coalition' (which this isn't):

(https://i.imgur.com/X4taYF4.jpg)
But it is a coalition government.  That’s how I will be referring to it from now on.  The Singh/Trudeau government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 23, 2022, 08:50:24 am
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of the good.  The system would be better with dental and pharmacare, regardless of the current issues.
Doing everything half assed is not something to strive for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 23, 2022, 09:09:57 am
Doing everything half assed is not something to strive for.
Exactly.  Our country hasn’t been run this poorly in decades.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 23, 2022, 09:48:09 am
And it’s your shitty policies that make all of that more expensive.  You have the **** nerve to talk about increased home heating and food costs?  It’s your **** energy taxes that makes EVERYTHING cost more.

something something single variable thinking.

The real reason drug prices in Canada are higher than in other OCED countries is because of price gouging and other monopolistic tactics by drug companies and the fact there's no single payer system here. But you don't actually give a **** about high costs for consumers unless you can shoehorn it into a partisan talking point.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 23, 2022, 11:35:02 pm
Skippy, you mean in 2025? That's a ways away - yes?

(https://i.imgur.com/cCFbtKM.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 08:47:27 am
Skippy, you mean in 2025? That's a ways away - yes?

(https://i.imgur.com/cCFbtKM.gif)
Good things come to those who wait.  Hopefully the Singh-Trudeau government hasn’t destroyed the economy by then.  Regardless, this is assuming that this agreement lasts until then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 08:48:37 am
Why a government would institute an increase in carbon taxes with inflation at record highs as well as gas prices is criminal.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 10:04:53 am
Why a government would institute an increase in carbon taxes with inflation at record highs as well as gas prices is criminal.

Inflation is good for governments, it increases tax revenues and makes their debt worth less.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 10:08:18 am
Inflation is good for governments, it increases tax revenues and makes their debt worth less.
That’s true.  The downside is that it’s like a huge tax on everyone else.  Apparently some people are too dumb to understand that, or in this case, they don’t care.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 24, 2022, 10:09:18 am
Quote
inflation at record highs

LOL

Not even close to being true.  Lying troll. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 10:10:18 am
LOL

Not even close to being true.  Lying troll.

Still, the highest in 30 years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 10:16:03 am
That’s true.  The downside is that it’s like a huge tax on everyone else.  Apparently some people are too dumb to understand that, or in this case, they don’t care.

The 50 cent increase in the price of gas in the last year means the feds collect 2.5 cents a litre more in GST without doing anything. The same goes for everything else that is subject to GST and has gone up in price. Higher energy costs causes prices of goods and services to go up and the government collects more money in GST. Inflation is good for governments. Bad for everyone else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 24, 2022, 10:27:14 am
Good things come to those who wait.

(https://i.imgur.com/MqOu6oO.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 10:43:39 am
(https://i.imgur.com/MqOu6oO.gif)
That’s what happens when you get more votes than the liberals. 😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 24, 2022, 11:04:45 am
The 50 cent increase in the price of gas in the last year means the feds collect 2.5 cents a litre more in GST without doing anything. The same goes for everything else that is subject to GST and has gone up in price. Higher energy costs causes prices of goods and services to go up and the government collects more money in GST. Inflation is good for governments. Bad for everyone else.

It's also very good for corporations who've been using inflation as a smokescreen to jack up prices beyond the increase in costs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 11:06:32 am
It's also very good for corporations who've been using inflation as a smokescreen to jack up prices beyond the increase in costs.

That's also good for government because they collect more tax regardless of why prices went up. All that debt they racked up is also worth 5% less than last year. Inflation is good for governments.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 11:09:40 am
It's also very good for corporations who've been using inflation as a smokescreen to jack up prices beyond the increase in costs.
Complete nonsense.  Everything has gotten more expensive because of inflation, so producing goods and services has followed.  Under your scenario there would be no reason why "corporations" wouldn't just do that all the time.  You're an economic illiterate. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 24, 2022, 11:13:14 am
That's also good for government because they collect more tax regardless of why prices went up. All that debt they racked up is also worth 5% less than last year. Inflation is good for governments.

Right but my point was it's not "bad for everyone else".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 24, 2022, 11:19:12 am
Complete nonsense.  Everything has gotten more expensive because of inflation, so producing goods and services has followed.  Under your scenario there would be no reason why "corporations" wouldn't just do that all the time.  You're an economic illiterate.

They do, you idiot.

Corporate Profits in Canada
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-corporate-profits.png?s=canadacorpro&v=202202231431V20220312&d1=19220418)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 11:24:06 am
They do, you idiot.

Corporate Profits in Canada
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-corporate-profits.png?s=canadacorpro&v=202202231431V20220312&d1=19220418)
So what?  Yes, everything's opening up again, and demand is high for goods and services.  Consumers are buying things again.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't cost significantly more to produce goods thanks to a big spike in energy costs.  It also costs significantly more to ship goods as well.  In part thanks to people like  you and your counter productive energy policies that help cause inflation, help make Canadian businesses less competitive globally, and help ship jobs overseas, while making things more expensive for every day Canadians.  You and your ilk are the last people that should be saying anything about the current economic situation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 24, 2022, 11:27:04 am
So what?  Yes, everything's opening up again, and demand is high for goods and services.  Consumers are buying things again.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't cost significantly more to produce goods thanks to a big spike in energy costs.  It also costs significantly more to ship goods as well.  In part thanks to people like  you and your counter productive energy policies that help cause inflation, help make Canadian businesses less competitive globally, and help ship jobs overseas, while making things more expensive for every day Canadians.  You and your ilk are the last people that should be saying anything about the current economic situation.

Wait: do you not understand what the word "profit" means? That would actually explain a lot lol.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 11:30:58 am
Wait: do you not understand what the word "profit" means? That would actually explain a lot lol.
Yes, profits, from increased sales of products and services.  The demand for things is significantly up, across the board, and supplies are limited because of supply chain issues.  High demand vs limited supply + inflation = higher prices.  An increase in demand ie sales of these goods and services is going to mean increased profits.  It's literally economics 101.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 24, 2022, 11:34:47 am
I guess we can agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 01:31:02 pm
Right but my point was it's not "bad for everyone else".

It isn't great for business either. We live in a capitalist society and it's competition that keeps prices low, not governments.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 01:32:46 pm
Yes, profits, from increased sales of products and services.  The demand for things is significantly up, across the board, and supplies are limited because of supply chain issues.  High demand vs limited supply + inflation = higher prices.  An increase in demand ie sales of these goods and services is going to mean increased profits.  It's literally economics 101.

If supply is limited, per unit profits will go up but company profits may not because they don't have enough product to sell because of limited supply.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 24, 2022, 01:38:39 pm
It isn't great for business either. We live in a capitalist society and it's competition that keeps prices low, not governments.

We've got like three telecoms, five banks, two grocery chains, two media companies, a highly concentrated natural resource sector. Competition is a myth.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 01:48:19 pm
We've got like three telecoms, five banks, two grocery chains, two media companies, a highly concentrated natural resource sector. Competition is a myth.

There are alternatives to most of them and our resource sector has to compete in world markets because most of our resources are exported.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 24, 2022, 01:57:11 pm
There are alternatives to most of them and our resource sector has to compete in world markets because most of our resources are exported.

The alternatives to most are small and local and can't compete on prices due to not having any purchasing power and the global resource market is itself a closed cabal.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 24, 2022, 05:53:48 pm
The alternatives to most are small and local and can't compete on prices due to not having any purchasing power and the global resource market is itself a closed cabal.

What's your point? Economies of scale make things cheaper. If you want to pay a bit more and support your local business, by all means do so. Anyone who shops online and uses things like Amazon has nothing to complain about because they are supporting the very thing they are complaining about.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 25, 2022, 10:04:57 am
What's your point? Economies of scale make things cheaper. If you want to pay a bit more and support your local business, by all means do so.

Uh, this?

(Inflation) is also very good for corporations who've been using inflation as a smokescreen to jack up prices beyond the increase in costs.

You responded with some non-sequiter about "competition" which ignores the fact that there is a profound lack of competition in key markets, which means companies are free to collude and fix prices to maximize their profits at the expense of consumers while government gets the blame.

Quote
Anyone who shops online and uses things like Amazon has nothing to complain about because they are supporting the very thing they are complaining about.

When the bulk of the market has been captured by a handful of companies, you can't blame people for not seeking out alternatives that don't exist.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 25, 2022, 10:20:24 am
Uh, this?

(Inflation) is also very good for corporations who've been using inflation as a smokescreen to jack up prices beyond the increase in costs.



When the bulk of the market has been captured by a handful of companies, you can't blame people for not seeking out alternatives that don't exist.

We existed without those companies before. It is the customers who built those companies by using them. They wanted cheap stuff delivered to their door and that’s what they got at the expense of local business.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 25, 2022, 10:21:47 am
We existed without those companies before. It is the customers who built those companies by using them. They wanted cheap stuff delivered to their door and that’s what they got at the expense of local business.
I wouldn’t waste your time with Black Dogg.  This is a guy who insisted that only rich people care about inflation.  You can’t fix that kind of stupid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 25, 2022, 10:37:43 am
We existed without those companies before. It is the customers who built those companies by using them. They wanted cheap stuff delivered to their door and that’s what they got at the expense of local business.

"It's consumers' fault that corporations have turned the free market into an oligopoly bent of screwing consumers" is a helluva take.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 25, 2022, 11:29:46 am
"It's consumers' fault that corporations have turned the free market into an oligopoly bent of screwing consumers" is a helluva take.

Basically, yes. The corporations got huge by responding to a demand. Don’t blame the companies if they got big as a result. The attraction of cheap stuff delivered to their door was too difficult to resist, regardless of the consequences.

Many of these companies like Amazon couldn’t satisfy customer demands if they weren’t huge.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 25, 2022, 11:38:15 am
Basically, yes. The corporations got huge by responding to a demand. Don’t blame the companies if they got big as a result. The attraction of cheap stuff delivered to their door was too difficult to resist, regardless of the consequences.

Many of these companies like Amazon couldn’t satisfy customer demands if they weren’t huge.

People will always act in their immediate best interests regardless of the broader social costs. Also, did people "demand" overnight straight to your door shipping of cheap goods made in China before such things were actually available or did the demand stem from the availability of cheap s**t.

But again, consumer demand alone doesn't drive concentration and monopolization of market sector; that's the rapaciousness of Wall Street. The state should be more aggressive in trustbusting and regulation in order to ensure more competition and lower prices.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 25, 2022, 01:11:36 pm
People will always act in their immediate best interests regardless of the broader social costs. Also, did people "demand" overnight straight to your door shipping of cheap goods made in China before such things were actually available or did the demand stem from the availability of cheap s**t.

But again, consumer demand alone doesn't drive concentration and monopolization of market sector; that's the rapaciousness of Wall Street. The state should be more aggressive in trustbusting and regulation in order to ensure more competition and lower prices.
a

Companies don't exist without customers and their customers don't care enough about social costs to not use them. Before these companies existed, you would go to a local merchant and if it wasn't in stock, he ordered it for you. People aren't willing to do that so they blame the companies who accommodate their desires for the broader social costs they really don't care about enough to use local business.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 25, 2022, 01:22:27 pm
Companies don't exist without customers and their customers don't care enough about social costs to not use them. Before these companies existed, you would go to a local merchant and if it wasn't in stock, he ordered it for you. People aren't willing to do that so they blame the companies who accommodate their desires for the broader social costs they really don't care about enough to use local business.

So companies don't create demand? I don't remember anyone saying "man I really hate my mom and pop bookstore, I wish there was a better way" or "I hate having to pay more for locally-made goods, I wish more companies would engage in exploitive labour practices so i didn't have to pay so much." Corporations act to maximize their profit first and foremost; consumer expectations follow.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 25, 2022, 08:30:22 pm
So companies don't create demand? I don't remember anyone saying "man I really hate my mom and pop bookstore, I wish there was a better way" or "I hate having to pay more for locally-made goods, I wish more companies would engage in exploitive labour practices so i didn't have to pay so much." Corporations act to maximize their profit first and foremost; consumer expectations follow.

Consumers have a responsibly too. Put their money where there mouth is instead of blaming someone else for the fact they want the cheapest and easiest and to hell with the consequences.

You wish, you wish. If you really care about those local businesses, use them instead of making excuses for why you don't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 27, 2022, 11:43:28 pm
early learning & child-care agreements signed between the Liberal federal government and:

=> July 8 - British Columbia;
=> July 12 - Nova Scotia;
=> July 23 - Yukon;
=> July 27 - P.E.I.;
=> July 28 - Newfoundland and Labrador;
=> August 5 - Quebec
=> August 9 - Manitoba
=> August 13 - Saskatchewan
=> November 14 - Alberta
=> December 13 - New Brunswick
=> December 13 - NWT
=> January 24 - Nunavat
=> March 28 - Ontario


and finally... Ontario/DOFO signs on; official announcement to occur tomorrow, Mon March 28:

Quote
Ontario is last province to sign on to child-care plan ahead of Doug Ford's re-election campaign

The deal commits the federal government to providing $10.2 billion to Ontario over a five-year period to bring the average cost of a child-care spot down to $10 per day in 2026, according to federal and provincial officials.

That is the same amount that the Trudeau government had offered to Ontario since negotiations on the child-care plan began last year.

For parents, the funding means an imminent reduction of child-care fees by an average of 25 per cent, with a further 25 per cent drop a year from now.

The officials said the deal also includes a plan to create 86,000 new child care spaces in Ontario by 2026, with the priority on not-for-profit operators.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2022, 08:24:05 am
Doug Ford in election mode
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 09:15:14 am
We can’t even pay for the entitlements we currently have in place.  Yet, we have children in charge of our government that insist on more.

Canada 'fairly close' to a debt crisis,
https://financialpost.com/news/economy/canada-fairly-close-to-a-debt-crisis-warns-magna-founder-frank-stronach?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1hSP6kNqXf-6Wxbcmp5XDTTDtjzWKzLFuKIlCib_W9qX3g5eUo9bYXZIo#Echobox=1648130091
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 09:16:27 am
early learning & child-care agreements signed between the Liberal federal government and:

=> July 8 - British Columbia;
=> July 12 - Nova Scotia;
=> July 23 - Yukon;
=> July 27 - P.E.I.;
=> July 28 - Newfoundland and Labrador;
=> August 5 - Quebec
=> August 9 - Manitoba
=> August 13 - Saskatchewan
=> November 14 - Alberta
=> December 13 - New Brunswick
=> December 13 - NWT
=> January 24 - Nunavat
=> March 28 - Ontario


and finally... Ontario/DOFO signs on; official announcement to occur tomorrow, Mon March 28:
Awesome.  More entitlements we can’t pay for.  This isn’t socialism it’s santa-ism.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on March 28, 2022, 10:02:48 am
Awesome.  More entitlements we can’t pay for.  This isn’t socialism it’s santa-ism.
They're already being paid for. This just makes it more affordable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 10:17:59 am
They're already being paid for. This just makes it more affordable.
We’re running massive deficits, have been since 2015 when Junior took over.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2022, 11:29:08 am
don't worry Retro - they've got this! Hey now waldo, how low can debt servicing go?

(https://i.imgur.com/KorIAgM.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 11:52:48 am
don't worry Retro - they've got this! Hey now waldo, how low can debt servicing go?

(https://i.imgur.com/KorIAgM.jpg)
So you’re ok with wasting billions of dollars each year on just paying interest on debt?  What do you think the serving costs will be as interest rates rise?  You f**ks are ruining this country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 12:00:54 pm
Typical boomer though, doesn't give a crap about the debt they leave to future generations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2022, 12:59:49 pm
So you’re ok with wasting billions of dollars each year on just paying interest on debt?  What do you think the serving costs will be as interest rates rise?  You f**ks are ruining this country.

spending when debt servicing is near its all time low... on prudent needs - yes?

...doesn't give a crap about the debt they leave to future generations.

your chance Retro! What targeted spending would you accept/parrot... what are your {parroted} targeted spending reductions? C'mon man - step-up and showcase your econChops, hey - name them!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 01:02:51 pm
spending when debt servicing is near its all time low... on prudent needs - yes?

your chance Retro! What targeted spending would you accept/parrot... what are your {parroted} targeted spending reductions? C'mon man - step-up and showcase your econChops, hey - name them!
You do realize that interest rates are going up right?  And that financing will as well.  Do you think governing by credit card is sustainable?  I thought this “targeted” spending was already addressed in the big deficits from 2015 to 2019?  What was all that spending for, during good economic times as well?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2022, 01:06:46 pm
your chance Retro! What targeted spending would you accept/parrot... what are your {parroted} targeted spending reductions? C'mon man - step-up and showcase your econChops, hey - name them!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 01:27:52 pm

What happened to the “targeted” spending from 2015-2019?  What’s the difference between targeted spending and non-targeted spending?  Why do you people insist on governing by credit card?  Every single year since dumb ass was elected in 2014.  Why do you think a debt crisis would be good for Canadians?  Why do you think even more inflation is good for Canadians?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 01:29:27 pm
Canada used to be the fiscal envy of the G7.  Trudeau quickly changed that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2022, 02:04:38 pm
Canada used to be the fiscal envy of the G7.  Trudeau quickly changed that.

(https://i.imgur.com/OrGjZgl.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 02:28:58 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/OrGjZgl.gif)
Yes, net debt as opposed to gross debt is the way the Singh-Trudeau government tries to hide the extent of the problem.  Good on you for disseminating their propaganda! 😂
Enough with the governing by credit card.  It’s unsustainable, especially as interest rates rise.  Tens of billions of dollars are going to just paying interest on our debt.  Money that could’ve been used on important programs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on March 28, 2022, 03:15:33 pm
Yes, net debt as opposed to gross debt is the way the Singh-Trudeau government....
So how much of the popular vote (which was very important two weeks ago) does Trudeau and Singh have combined?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 28, 2022, 03:24:41 pm
We’re running massive deficits, have been since 2015 when Junior took over.

(https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/authors/093015%20fig1rev.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 03:55:57 pm
(https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/authors/093015%20fig1rev.jpg)
Yes, the global recession of 3008 sent Canada into temporary deficits as the economy contracted significantly due to no fault of our own.  Junior was then handed a balanced budget, which he quickly decided to turn into “modest” deficits.  Your graph is a perfect illustration.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2022, 04:05:06 pm
Daulton McGuintys Liberals destroyed Ontario's finances.  Trudeaus liberals are doing the same.  Gerald Butts worked for both admins.  Same playbook, same results.

This is what the Liberal utopia looks like.   Spend other people's money like it's going out of style to keep getting elected then let someone else clean up the mess when you're gone.   100% selfish arseholes.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 28, 2022, 04:56:17 pm
Yes, the global recession of 3008 sent Canada into temporary deficits as the economy contracted significantly due to no fault of our own.  Junior was then handed a balanced budget, which he quickly decided to turn into “modest” deficits. Your graph is a perfect illustration.

Billion dollar deficit in 2015 but sure, "balanced".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 28, 2022, 04:57:26 pm
Daulton McGuintys Liberals destroyed Ontario's finances.  Trudeaus liberals are doing the same.  Gerald Butts worked for both admins.  Same playbook, same results.

This is what the Liberal utopia looks like.   Spend other people's money like it's going out of style to keep getting elected then let someone else clean up the mess when you're gone.   100% selfish arseholes.

Weird how the government ran deficits for a big chunk of the 80s and early 90s under a Conservative government and then again in 2009-2015.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 05:35:31 pm
Weird how the government ran deficits for a big chunk of the 80s and early 90s under a Conservative government and then again in 2009-2015.
Whataboutism.  Regardless, the 2008 financial collapse was why Canada went into deficit spending.  But yeah, the deficits in the 80s were bad.  Just like it’s bad policy now.  I’d love a Chrétien or Martin Liberal governments at this point.  At least they were adults.  The biggest problem is people like you, that think indefinite deficit spending is compassionate.  It’s not.  It’s reckless and irresponsible and destructive long term.  Stop acting like a child. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2022, 05:37:27 pm
Daulton McGuintys Liberals destroyed Ontario's finances.  Trudeaus liberals are doing the same.  Gerald Butts worked for both admins.  Same playbook, same results.

This is what the Liberal utopia looks like.   Spend other people's money like it's going out of style to keep getting elected then let someone else clean up the mess when you're gone.   100% selfish arseholes.
Exactly.  I would kill for a Chrétien or Martin government at this point.  Adults that understand how important responsible fiscal policy and who it relates to long term prosperity.  But we have a drama teacher jackass child for a PM.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on March 28, 2022, 06:18:29 pm
Whataboutism.  Regardless, the 2008 financial collapse was why Canada went into deficit spending. 
Good thing there is no worldwide economic calamity like Bush's financial collapse these days.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2022, 07:18:09 pm
Weird how the government ran deficits for a big chunk of the 80s and early 90s under a Conservative government and then again in 2009-2015.

What does that have to do with the Liberals from the last 15 years?  Whattaboutism.

Even the Chretien Liberal gov was more fiscally responsible, though they had a fantastic economic era unlike the 80s early 90s, 2008 and Covid.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2022, 07:20:23 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/OrGjZgl.gif)

Now do 2020-2022.  Nice cherry picking  of data.

Show us the data on which counties spent the most per capita during the pandemic
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 28, 2022, 08:08:14 pm
…they had a fantastic economic era unlike the 80s early 90s, 2008 and Covid.

So…. The deficits, then and now, are justified due to COVID, and the other factors you mentioned? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on March 28, 2022, 08:32:21 pm
So…. The deficits, then and now, are justified due to COVID, and the other factors you mentioned?
Biden has lowered Trump's deficit by $1.3 TRILLION. He has been so successful, shady will have to pretend it never happened.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2022, 08:39:52 pm
 :'(
So…. The deficits, then and now, are justified due to COVID, and the other factors you mentioned?

Deficits are fine during a recession if they are spent more or less responsibly.  I have no issues with Trudeau running a deficit during the pandemic, the issue is what the money is spent on.

We just found out how horrid the conditions of our long term care facilities are across the country.  I've had personal experience with them and they don't even hire enough staff to properly feed and look after people.  It's disgusting. Unfortunately most people in long term care homes don't vote so nobody gives a crap.  And yet we have money for daycare, pharmacare, and dental. 

I have no problem with social programs but when you don't fund them properly they are inhumane because services need to be rationed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 29, 2022, 11:03:33 am
What does that have to do with the Liberals from the last 15 years?  Whattaboutism.

Even the Chretien Liberal gov was more fiscally responsible, though they had a fantastic economic era unlike the 80s early 90s, 2008 and Covid.

It's not whataboutism, it's a direct refutation of the claim that deficit spending is "what the Liberal utopia looks like."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 29, 2022, 11:08:24 am
:'(
Deficits are fine during a recession if they are spent more or less responsibly.  I have no issues with Trudeau running a deficit during the pandemic, the issue is what the money is spent on.

We just found out how horrid the conditions of our long term care facilities are across the country.  I've had personal experience with them and they don't even hire enough staff to properly feed and look after people.  It's disgusting. Unfortunately most people in long term care homes don't vote so nobody gives a crap.  And yet we have money for daycare, pharmacare, and dental. 

I have no problem with social programs but when you don't fund them properly they are inhumane because services need to be rationed.


The irony here is that the issues with LTC date back to Paul Martin's deficit busting austerity measures.

Quote
The LTC crisis is a result of decades of welfare-state retrenchment and the general weakness of Canada’s pension-plan model. In 1995, Ottawa dramatically overhauled the system of federal transfer payments to the provinces. These transfer payments had previously funded the bulk of Canadian healthcare, education and social services. Over the course of this transition, governments quietly cut billions of dollars from these essential programs. This downloading of costs from federal to provincial governments was a trend from the late 1980s to mid-90s as all levels of government moved toward fiscal conservatism and privatization.

With far fewer revenue-generating mechanisms for the provinces, the programs now faced significant funding challenges. Partnering with the private sector became an increasingly attractive proposition for cash-strapped local governments.

These revenue constraints contributed to the development of Ontario’s patchwork LTC system. The history of LTC in the province is one of path dependency and neglect. The core of the problem is that the present LTC system, as Richard O’Donnell, former president of the for-profit Ontario Nursing Home Association puts it, “was never planned; it has simply evolved.”

link (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/11/ontario-canada-long-term-care-covid-coronavirus)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on March 29, 2022, 03:06:02 pm
:'(
Deficits are fine during a recession if they are spent more or less responsibly.  I have no issues with Trudeau running a deficit during the pandemic, the issue is what the money is spent on.

We just found out how horrid the conditions of our long term care facilities are across the country.  I've had personal experience with them and they don't even hire enough staff to properly feed and look after people.  It's disgusting. Unfortunately most people in long term care homes don't vote so nobody gives a crap.  And yet we have money for daycare, pharmacare, and dental. 

I have no problem with social programs but when you don't fund them properly they are inhumane because services need to be rationed.

You moved the goalposts from “deficits are bad” to “Trudeau is spending the budget deficits on things I don’t agree with, and that’s bad”.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2022, 03:19:06 pm
You moved the goalposts from “deficits are bad” to “Trudeau is spending the budget deficits on things I don’t agree with, and that’s bad”.

When did I say "deficits are bad".  Please quote the relevant text.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2022, 03:39:57 pm
It's not whataboutism, it's a direct refutation of the claim that deficit spending is "what the Liberal utopia looks like."

I never made that argument.  Another strawman, stacked on top of the whataboutism.  Please don't put words in my mouth, it will not be tolerated.

Again, there's nothing wrong with deficit spending if it is necessary and responsible.  There is something wrong with all deficit spending, all the time since being elected in 2015 even when the economy is going well, and using economic emergencies to blow out deficit spending and then using it as an excuse to push your social program giveaways so you can get re-elected, because, well, its a pandemic and people seem to not care about balancing a budget right now so lets sneak this in.

Our debt to gdp was 30.9% in 2019 and is now 48%.  For those scoring at home thats almost double the debt in only 2 years, and showing no signs of stopping.

My point is maybe you want to fix the giant holes in our current healthcare systems and push the money to those glaring problems before starting new healthcare systems.  As i've said before, i'm not against pharmacare or dental care (for low incomes), but you also need to prioritize things properly.

As for daycare, heck i'd rather pay or subsidize a parent (mom or dad, split however they wish) to stay home in a child's age 1-3 before they hit kindergarten than pay for their daycare.  I would think it would be nice to live in a society where we're actually raising our own children instead of handing them over to strangers, which sounds like something out of a dystopian nightmare to me.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 29, 2022, 04:17:03 pm
I never made that argument.  Another strawman, stacked on top of the whataboutism. Please don't put words in my mouth, it will not be tolerated.

Those are your words. (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/government-day-to-day/msg88367/#msg88367)

Quote
Our debt to gdp was 30.9% in 2019 and is now 48%.  For those scoring at home thats almost double the debt in only 2 years, and showing no signs of stopping.

You're only off by almost 14%.

Quote
My point is maybe you want to fix the giant holes in our current healthcare systems and push the money to those glaring problems before starting new healthcare systems.  As i've said before, i'm not against pharmacare or dental care (for low incomes), but you also need to prioritize things properly.

But why can't you do both? And who is to say that offering dental/pharma won't help the current healthcare system?

Quote
As for daycare, heck i'd rather pay or subsidize a parent (mom or dad, split however they wish) to stay home in a child's age 1-3 before they hit kindergarten than pay for their daycare. I would think it would be nice to live in a society where we're actually raising our own children instead of handing them over to strangers, which sounds like something out of a dystopian nightmare to me.

As someone with a kid in daycare I find the idea that someone else is raising them to be hilarious. I can also tell you that daycare offers opportunities for kids that stay at home parents cannot easily provide, such as socialization and play.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2022, 05:35:39 pm
Those are your words. (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/government-day-to-day/msg88367/#msg88367)

I said the Butts-ideology Liberals ruined the finances of Ontario, and they're doing it to the feds, because they spend like idiots.  I never made a general claim about deficit-spending.

Quote
But why can't you do both? And who is to say that offering dental/pharma won't help the current healthcare system?

You can in theory.  But we can't properly do one, so what would make us assume we can do both right now?  If you've got streets filled with pot holes that haven't been fixed for decades because the money isn't there maybe now is not the time to spend on a new sports arena upgrade.

Quote
As someone with a kid in daycare I find the idea that someone else is raising them to be hilarious. I can also tell you that daycare offers opportunities for kids that stay at home parents cannot easily provide, such as socialization and play.

If someone sends their 2 year old to daycare for 6-8 hours a day yeah a stranger is raising your kid.  If you send your kid to daycare a handful of hours a week to get socialized (like pre-school) then sure no problem.  Or if they spend 1-2 hours a day in daycare before you pick them up after work sure no problem.  But no way in heck i'd prefer to go back to work full-time after a year of off and spend my toddler to daycare for 6-8 hours a day while i go work.  It's insane.  And i never said you do that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2022, 06:06:00 pm
Canada federal debt 2021 1.2 trillion
Canada GDP 2021 1.88 trillion

My arithmetic puts that at 63.8% debt to GDP.

Total government debt to GDP is around 118%.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on March 29, 2022, 07:16:28 pm
I said the Butts-ideology Liberals ruined the finances of Ontario, and they're doing it to the feds, because they spend like idiots.  I never made a general claim about deficit-spending.

I didn't say you did. I suggested you specifically linked deficit spending to the Liberals.

Quote
You can in theory.  But we can't properly do one, so what would make us assume we can do both right now?  If you've got streets filled with pot holes that haven't been fixed for decades because the money isn't there maybe now is not the time to spend on a new sports arena upgrade.

You can use this to shot down literally any policy because there will always, always be some other thing that money can go to. Like why are we spending billions of warplanes that don't work when there are people living on the street?

Quote
If someone sends their 2 year old to daycare for 6-8 hours a day yeah a stranger is raising your kid.  If you send your kid to daycare a handful of hours a week to get socialized (like pre-school) then sure no problem.  Or if they spend 1-2 hours a day in daycare before you pick them up after work sure no problem.  But no way in heck i'd prefer to go back to work full-time after a year of off and spend my toddler to daycare for 6-8 hours a day while i go work.  It's insane.  And i never said you do that.

Do even have kids?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2022, 10:37:47 pm
early learning & child-care agreements signed between the Liberal federal government and:

=> July 8 - British Columbia;
=> July 12 - Nova Scotia;
=> July 23 - Yukon;
=> July 27 - P.E.I.;
=> July 28 - Newfoundland and Labrador;
=> August 5 - Quebec
=> August 9 - Manitoba
=> August 13 - Saskatchewan
=> November 14 - Alberta
=> December 13 - New Brunswick
=> December 13 - NWT
=> January 24 - Nunavat
=> March 28 - Ontario
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kifua_BvVHs

for all you 'deficit hawks', of course, Poilievre has previously, several times, outright committed to repealing federal early learning & child-care... although when asked directly about  it recently, he couched his words stating an intent to... simply, "cancel any new deficit spending". (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1508777481830117378/pu/vid/1270x720/MTFWgWS4Pl_fCpnk.mp4?tag=12)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2022, 10:54:43 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/OrGjZgl.gif)

Now do 2020-2022.  Nice cherry picking  of data.

Show us the data on which counties spent the most per capita during the pandemic

of course there is no summary data (yet) for 2022... but here you go - you're welcome!

(https://i.imgur.com/nya00t6.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 29, 2022, 11:05:01 pm
I didn't say you did. I suggested you specifically linked deficit spending to the Liberals.

Ok, which is inaccurate.

Quote
You can use this to shot down literally any policy because there will always, always be some other thing that money can go to. Like why are we spending billions of warplanes that don't work when there are people living on the street?

I suppose.  But i don't think its a bad idea to fix our current essential programs.  We can do both, i will agree, if the money is there.  But we haven't fixed the other issues and i see no evidence they will be funded properly.  In sum, I think our current federal pseudo-coalition is led by idealistic fools who don't know wtf they're doing, and they don't care as long as it buys them votes.  We are led by careerist sociopaths.

Quote
Do even have kids?

I have many beautiful black babies.  (meant to read:  I typically don't give out much personal info on this site in order to maintain anonymity and privacy).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 01, 2022, 12:15:31 pm
even though the article focuses entirely on the recent 'antics' of federal & provincial Conservative politicians, clearly including 'Conservative' in the headline was not going to pass the G&M headline editors!

(https://i.imgur.com/647fOW7.jpg)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 06, 2022, 02:29:55 pm
just don't call it a 'coalition' - thank you very much => Liberals, NDP leadership have tentative deal to support Trudeau government to 2025 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeu-jagmeet-singh-working-together-1.6392756)

(https://i.imgur.com/efTGuYV.jpg)

Quote
The leadership of the Liberals and the NDP have reached a tentative agreement that would see the NDP support the Liberal government to keep it in power until 2025 in exchange for movement on key NDP priorities, CBC News has learned.

The so-called confidence-and-supply agreement still needs the support of NDP MPs who are meeting late Monday night, according to multiple sources who spoke to CBC News on condition they not be named due to the sensitive nature of the discussions.

The agreement would see the NDP back the Liberals in confidence votes. In return, the Liberals will follow through on some elements of national pharmacare and dental care programs — programs that have long been promoted by the NDP.

geezaz waldo! Such high opposition from CPC & PPC supporters - whoda thunk it!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPlz0DmXIAE-wmB?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 06, 2022, 02:41:28 pm
geezaz waldo! Such high opposition from CPC & PPC supporters

Are you Jar Jar Binks?

(https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/73a/a89/3e06421c9061164cd70fb21b5712ab32f5-17-jar-jar-binks.rsquare.w330.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 06, 2022, 10:49:03 pm
skippy gets in his pre-budget licks; Poilievre calls for a budget that will:

=> Remove/repeal the fundamental principal of existing climate change policy - carbon pricing... while offering no alternate methods/approaches to help reduce emissions
=> Reduce/eliminate social program spending
=> Reduce/end government involvement in key industry sectors by instituting a broad policy/intent to deregulate said industrial sectors

(https://i.imgur.com/GXfK9UK.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 08, 2022, 11:15:06 am
skippy gets in his pre-budget licks; Poilievre calls for a budget that will:

=> Remove/repeal the fundamental principal of existing climate change policy - carbon pricing... while offering no alternate methods/approaches to help reduce emissions
=> Reduce/eliminate social program spending
=> Reduce/end government involvement in key industry sectors by instituting a broad policy/intent to deregulate said industrial sectors

So "gatekeepers" is the new buzzword for "regulators" now? I also wonder if one of the housing "gatekeepers" he'd want removed is exclusionary zoning, but I doubt that's the case given the prevalence of wealthy Boomer property owners in the CPC's base.

Also, lol at the idea that removing the carbon tax would actually cause prices to drop instead of just sending more money into corporate pockets.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 09, 2022, 01:48:43 am
Canada's unemployment rate dropped to lowest level on record in March to 5.3%

(https://i0.wp.com/smartcdn.gprod.postmedia.digital/financialpost/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/thumbnail_unemployment-rate-march-2022.png?resize=1001%2C832&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on April 09, 2022, 09:28:27 am
Canada's unemployment rate dropped to lowest level on record in March to 5.3%

(https://i0.wp.com/smartcdn.gprod.postmedia.digital/financialpost/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/thumbnail_unemployment-rate-march-2022.png?resize=1001%2C832&ssl=1)
Way to go Doug Ford!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on April 09, 2022, 09:53:48 am
Wow. Trudeau is looking better every day.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 25, 2022, 11:10:26 am
More money for people who don't need it. Government expands EV rebates to include vehicles costing up to $70,000.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-expanding-electric-vehicle-rebate-1.6427488
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 25, 2022, 11:39:04 am
More money for people who don't need it. Government expands EV rebates to include vehicles costing up to $70,000.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-expanding-electric-vehicle-rebate-1.6427488

I agree this isn't great. A better strategy would be to move away from a society that depends so heavily on cars in the first place.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on April 25, 2022, 11:50:24 am
I agree this isn't great. A better strategy would be to move away from a society that depends so heavily on cars in the first place.
Thanks Captain Obvious.  But the problem with your suggestion as that it's currently not economically feasible, and not supported by the public.  Plus, people enjoy the freedom of having their own vehicles.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 25, 2022, 11:52:31 am
I agree this isn't great. A better strategy would be to move away from a society that depends so heavily on cars in the first place.

If I have 70k to spend on a vehicle, I'm going to buy the one I want, not one government wants to bribe me to buy that already has a long waiting list.

Except for our large cities, we will always rely heavily on personal vehicles.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 25, 2022, 12:13:00 pm
If I have 70k to spend on a vehicle, I'm going to buy the one I want, not one government wants to bribe me to buy that already has a long waiting list.

Except for our large cities, we will always rely heavily on personal vehicles.

A better strategy is cranking up taxes on gas.  Or to add taxes to gas guzzlers.   The price of gas has everyone talking about EVs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 25, 2022, 12:26:45 pm
A better strategy is cranking up taxes on gas.  Or to add taxes to gas guzzlers.   The price of gas has everyone talking about EVs.

If there are long wait lists for EV's, all increasing fuel taxes does is drive up the cost of living for everyone. Just more government generated inflation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on April 25, 2022, 12:28:08 pm
A better strategy is cranking up taxes on gas.  Or to add taxes to gas guzzlers.   The price of gas has everyone talking about EVs.
Brilliant.  Raise taxes on the poor and middle class, so that they can afford to buy $70,000 dollar vehicles!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 25, 2022, 01:11:03 pm
Brilliant.  Raise taxes on the poor and middle class, so that they can afford to buy $70,000 dollar vehicles!

The poor and middle class aren't the ones buying $90K luxury pick ups and SUVs, you dolt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on April 25, 2022, 01:57:59 pm
The poor and middle class aren't the ones buying $90K luxury pick ups and SUVs, you dolt.
But they'd still be paying the higher price for gas, dolt.  Not only that, it would add to inflation, and make the cost of everything go up.  Brilliant economics, by people that are economically illiterate.  You and the Squidiot need to crack open an economics text book sometime.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 25, 2022, 02:07:51 pm
The poor and middle class aren't the ones buying $90K luxury pick ups and SUVs, you dolt.

So why are middle class taxpayers subsidizing those who can afford $70K vehicles?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 25, 2022, 02:19:10 pm
So why are middle class taxpayers subsidizing those who can afford $70K vehicles?

Why are you asking me, I didn't make that policy and don't agree with it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 25, 2022, 04:00:24 pm
If there are long wait lists for EV's, all increasing fuel taxes does is drive up the cost of living for everyone. Just more government generated inflation.

Demand for EVs will drive their manufacture.  Increase demand, and manufacturers will ramp up production. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 25, 2022, 08:10:30 pm
Demand for EVs will drive their manufacture.  Increase demand, and manufacturers will ramp up production.

So what? That demand is there without giving people making well over 100K  a year a subsidy to buy them. Subsidized by tax payers who cannot afford to buy them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 25, 2022, 08:21:11 pm
So what? That demand is there without giving people making well over 100K  a year a subsidy to buy them. Subsidized by tax payers who cannot afford to buy them.

I agree with you.  I wouldn't subsidize people making a lot of money for much of anything really.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 25, 2022, 09:58:04 pm
So what? That demand is there without giving people making well over 100K  a year a subsidy to buy them. Subsidized by tax payers who cannot afford to buy them.

So, demand needs to be higher to move away from making more ICE cars.  Seems obvious. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 25, 2022, 10:09:28 pm
So, demand needs to be higher to move away from making more ICE cars.  Seems obvious.

Maybe they can subsidize even for the rich until the charging infrastructure is in place, then scrap the subsidies for the rich.

Or maybe they can remove the subsidies for the rich and add that money to the subsidies to build charging stations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 25, 2022, 11:26:20 pm
Maybe they can subsidize even for the rich until the charging infrastructure is in place, then scrap the subsidies for the rich.

Or maybe they can remove the subsidies for the rich and add that money to the subsidies to build charging stations.

$70k for a vehicle isn’t really for “the rich”.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 25, 2022, 11:45:23 pm
$70k for a vehicle isn’t really for “the rich”.

That's not what I said.

Isn't wilbur saying taxpayers should be paying for the EV subsidies for the people with lots of money and don't need the subsidies?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 25, 2022, 11:52:03 pm
That's not what I said.

Isn't wilbur saying taxpayers should be paying for the EV subsidies for the people with lots of money and don't need the subsidies?

So they should subsidize all the poor people and their new car purchases?  Poor people aren’t buying new cars.   Pushing people who buy cars for $70k or less to buy more electrics than ICE seems like good policy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 26, 2022, 09:04:40 am
So they should subsidize all the poor people and their new car purchases?  Poor people aren’t buying new cars.   Pushing people who buy cars for $70k or less to buy more electrics than ICE seems like good policy.

Why should they need pushing and why should people who can't afford those cars be paying for them? If people with 70K to spend on a car want an EV, they will buy one regardless of what government does. This is just robbing from people who can't afford something to give to those who can.

Most people can't afford 70K cars but they are supposed to subsidize those who can. Rediculous.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 26, 2022, 09:34:24 am
Why should they need pushing and why should people who can't afford those cars be paying for them? If people with 70K to spend on a car want an EV, they will buy one regardless of what government does. This is just robbing from people who can't afford something to give to those who can.

Most people can't afford 70K cars but they are supposed to subsidize those who can. Rediculous.

So you keep repeating that number so I looked and a lot of EVs don't cost $70K. A 2022 Nissan Leaf runs about $45K. A Tesla model 3 is $60K. The Hyundai Kona base model is $25K. The Mustang Mach E is like $51K. The Chevrolet Bolt is $40K. Those are pretty much on par with new ICE prices. This was news to me and it's making me reconsider the subsidy thing.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 26, 2022, 11:03:20 am
So you keep repeating that number so I looked and a lot of EVs don't cost $70K. A 2022 Nissan Leaf runs about $45K. A Tesla model 3 is $60K. The Hyundai Kona base model is $25K. The Mustang Mach E is like $51K. The Chevrolet Bolt is $40K. Those are pretty much on par with new ICE prices. This was news to me and it's making me reconsider the subsidy thing.

A base Nissan Roque starts at $29K. A base Leaf costs more than a base Murano.  Base Kona gas starts at 24K, the Kona EV starts at almost 49K.

The point is, the subsidy has been increased to include vehicles up to 70K. Taxes being paid by people who cannot afford those vehicles are being used to subsidize those who can. Anyone who can afford 70K for a vehicle doesn't need a gift from someone earning 50K a year to buy it.

This government is continually looking for new ways to spend money when it can't even support existing programs without borrowing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 26, 2022, 12:01:28 pm
A base Nissan Roque starts at $29K. A base Leaf costs more than a base Murano.  Base Kona gas starts at 24K, the Kona EV starts at almost 49K.

The point is, the subsidy has been increased to include vehicles up to 70K. Taxes being paid by people who cannot afford those vehicles are being used to subsidize those who can. Anyone who can afford 70K for a vehicle doesn't need a gift from someone earning 50K a year to buy it.

This government is continually looking for new ways to spend money when it can't even support existing programs without borrowing.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote
Starting next week, the rebate will be extended to cars with a base model price below $55,000 and to SUVs, pickup trucks and minivans with a base model price below $60,000.

Consumers who buy those vehicles can choose higher trims or add options worth up to $10,000 and still qualify for the rebate.


That means a car with a base model price of $55,000 with a trim price of $65,000 would still qualify, while a car with a base model price of $60,000 would not be eligible.

link (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-expanding-electric-vehicle-rebate-1.6427488)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 26, 2022, 12:52:13 pm
That doesn't seem to be the case.

link (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/government-expanding-electric-vehicle-rebate-1.6427488)


A base price of 60K plus 10K worth of options equals 70K
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 26, 2022, 01:10:23 pm
A base price of 60K plus 10K worth of options equals 70K

Quote
while a car with a base model price of $60,000 would not be eligible.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 26, 2022, 02:33:52 pm
while a car with a base model price of $60,000 would not be eligible.

But a car with a base price of $59,900 would.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 27, 2022, 01:10:10 am
Example: Audi Q4 e-tron. Base price $59,950. Should we be subsidizing buyers of Audi's? I don't think so even though I own an Audi.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 27, 2022, 10:49:08 am
Example: Audi Q4 e-tron. Base price $59,950. Should we be subsidizing buyers of Audi's? I don't think so even though I own an Audi.

Ok, but what about the people on the other end who might be considering a low end EV and for whom this subsidy would be a big incentive?

As with most of these arguments around means-testing, I think the simple solution is to claw it back on the top end through higher taxes. For example, a luxury tax on vehicles $70K up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 27, 2022, 12:42:26 pm
Ok, but what about the people on the other end who might be considering a low end EV and for whom this subsidy would be a big incentive?

As with most of these arguments around means-testing, I think the simple solution is to claw it back on the top end through higher taxes. For example, a luxury tax on vehicles $70K up.

Yes, rather than a break on EVs, maybe a penalty for “gas guzzlers”.  But Wilber would be decrying that as well. 

If, fundamentally, one doesn’t  think government should be pushing people towards EVs, then I guess there’s not much else to say.   Luckily, Wilber is on the losing side of this argument and it’s going to go that way more and more until ICEs are no longer being sold new in the not-so-distant future.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on April 27, 2022, 12:56:28 pm
Yes, rather than a break on EVs, maybe a penalty for “gas guzzlers”.  But Wilber would be decrying that as well. 

Better yet: both.

Quote
If, fundamentally, one doesn’t  think government should be pushing people towards EVs, then I guess there’s not much else to say. Luckily, Wilber is on the losing side of this argument and it’s going to go that way more and more until ICEs are no longer being sold new in the not-so-distant future.

it's funny that anyone would feel that way given that the last 60 years of government policy has been broadly about pushing people into ICE vehicles (for example, through urban planning that promotes and subsidizes suburban sprawl).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 27, 2022, 01:22:12 pm
Ok, but what about the people on the other end who might be considering a low end EV and for whom this subsidy would be a big incentive?

As with most of these arguments around means-testing, I think the simple solution is to claw it back on the top end through higher taxes. For example, a luxury tax on vehicles $70K up.

BC already has a luxury tax on vehicles. PST goes up in increments on vehicles over 55K. PST on a 60K vehicle would be 10%. $125K to $150K it is 15% and anything over that is 20%. I don't know if this applies to EV's.  We already had incentives on lower price EV's.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 28, 2022, 12:29:46 am
Quote from: Justin Trudeau, Prime Minister of Canada
We’re not using the Emergencies Act to call in the military. We’re not suspending fundamental rights or overriding the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We are not limiting people’s freedom of speech. We are not limiting freedom of peaceful assembly. We are not preventing people from exercising their right to protest legally. We are reinforcing the principles, values and institutions that keep all Canadians free.

per the proclamation that declared a public order emergency:

(https://i.imgur.com/lfk5E9t.gif)

by the by: the motion affirming the Liberal government's decision to invoke the Emergencies Act passed a House of Commons vote - 185 to 151
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 28, 2022, 12:30:10 am
- per the Emergencies Act itself:

Quote
Under section 62(1) of the Emergencies Act, a Parliamentary Review Committee (the Committee) is to be established to review “the exercise of powers and the performance of duties and functions pursuant to a declaration of emergency.”

The Committee is to include at least one member of Parliament from each official party and at least one senator from each party in the Senate that is represented on the Committee by a member of Parliament.

- makeup of the committee:
(https://i.imgur.com/xcssyXq.gif)

still early days for the committee... however, progress to-date is said to be limited due to overt partisanship - who knew! Surely Conservative MPs & Senators aren't attempting to manage scope to limit the exposure to 'conservative members and supporters of the 'Freedom Convoy' - surely!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 28, 2022, 12:30:48 am
Prime Minister Trudeau announces the creation of an independent public inquiry following the invocation of the Emergencies Act:

(https://i.imgur.com/7iiRZBo.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 28, 2022, 08:14:53 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/health-canada-blood-ban-1.6434078

I think this is past due but I still can't donate blood  because  I spent too much time in the UK during the 80's.  FFS, if I had mad cow it would have shown up by now. People like me obviously don't fit the present government's PC suck up to minorities agenda.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 28, 2022, 08:27:17 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/health-canada-blood-ban-1.6434078

Health is more important than people's feelings getting offended.  Some people sure do whine about stupid stuff these days.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 28, 2022, 10:07:47 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/health-canada-blood-ban-1.6434078

I think this is past due but I still can't donate blood  because  I spent too much time in the UK during the 80's.  FFS, if I had mad cow it would have shown up by now. People like me obviously don't fit the present government's PC suck up to minorities agenda.

USA has the same rules.  Mad cow may not show up for years.  Risk is minimal, but exists. It’s not just for **** and giggles.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on April 28, 2022, 10:56:02 pm
USA has the same rules.  Mad cow may not show up for years.  Risk is minimal, but exists. It’s not just for **** and giggles.

Let's hope cows don't get offended.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: segnosaur on April 29, 2022, 02:00:47 am
(Article about ending ban on blood donations for homosexual men)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/health-canada-blood-ban-1.6434078

I think this is past due but I still can't donate blood  because  I spent too much time in the UK during the 80's.  FFS, if I had mad cow it would have shown up by now.
Maybe not.

From: https://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/infections/Pages/Mad-Cow-Disease.aspx
The incubation period for disease related to exposure to infected tissues varies between 1.5 years and more than 30 years.

On average it probably would have shown up by now, but a potential 30+ year incubation period means that in theory you could still be an asymptomatic carrier. (And this is for a disease for which there is no definitive test, nor any treatment.)

Maybe they are being overly cautious, but the risk is there.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2022, 12:00:39 pm
The eighties were over 30 years ago.

I flew with hundreds, if not thousands of people who spent as much or more time in the UK during that period. I don't know of any who came down with this disease.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on April 29, 2022, 06:03:16 pm
The eighties were over 30 years ago.

I flew with hundreds, if not thousands of people who spent as much or more time in the UK during that period. I don't know of any who came down with this disease.

I had a single hamburger in Dover in 1980.  So I couldn't give blood for years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on April 29, 2022, 07:03:04 pm
The eighties were over 30 years ago.

I flew with hundreds, if not thousands of people who spent as much or more time in the UK during that period. I don't know of any who came down with this disease.

I get that you feel hard-done-by….  And it may be overly cautious….   But it’s not a conspiracy against ‘your kind’. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2022, 07:44:44 pm
I get that you feel hard-done-by….  And it may be overly cautious….   But it’s not a conspiracy against ‘your kind’.

I've never thought it was a conspiracy. I don't object to the ability of gay men to donate blood. I do maintain that doing so and restricting some others has more to do with a PC agenda than medical evidence.

I'm of an age where former co- workers are dropping like flies, but none of them from BSE.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 29, 2022, 08:42:09 pm

Quote
I had a single hamburger in Dover in 1980.  So I couldn't give blood for years.


Only if you spent an accumulated total of three months between 1980 and 1996. Mine was an accumulation  of one and two night layovers doing that period.

I used to donate blood regularly when I was younger, it's kind of a civic duty. When I got a flying job the current guidance was flight crew should not donate blood. That has since changed. After I retired I decided I would like to donate again but unfortunately I am on the undesirable list.

If I was in dire straits needing a transfusion and told the blood I was getting might have a one and a million chance of having BSE, I don't think I would take death as an alternative.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 30, 2022, 11:16:26 am
(https://i.imgur.com/vohtCcV.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: segnosaur on May 01, 2022, 01:04:43 am
The eighties were over 30 years ago.
Yes, and the reference I found said the incubation period can be OVER 30 years.

(Of course, if you are going to restrict people from donating UP TO 30 years after living in the U.K., why not just go all the way?
Quote
I flew with hundreds, if not thousands of people who spent as much or more time in the UK during that period. I don't know of any who came down with this disease.
First of all, keep in mind that my response was directed mostly at your claim of "I was in Britain 30 years ago... I'd know if I was sick by now".... my posting was to show that no, you might not know yet.

Secondly, I am not denying that the problem is extremely rare. But, its also a disease for which there is currently no detection method and no treatment. This might be the reason for the rather excessive caution. Is it "overly cautious"? Maybe, maybe not. The risk is no big deal, until a rare case when someone does donate contaminated blood causing an outbreak, then people will complain "why weren't there more controls?"
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on May 02, 2022, 05:35:55 pm
Stellantis has agreed to invest $3.6-billion in its Windsor Assembly Plant and its facility in Brampton... 'the first step toward creating a vertically-integrated electric vehicle supply chain'.

PM Trudeau and Ontario Premier Ford joined Stellantis North America COO Mark Stewart in making the announcement today in Windsor, Ont.

(https://blackburnnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/unnamed-625x390.jpeg)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: segnosaur on May 03, 2022, 09:27:03 am
Re: Restrictions against British residents donating blood...
I get that you feel hard-done-by….  And it may be overly cautious….   But it’s not a conspiracy against ‘your kind’.
Hey, don't discount the idea that it could be a conspiracy.

After all, there are other British problems besides mad cow disease to worry about. We get too many of them donating blood, and people will start driving on the wrong side of the road, drink warm beer, and watch soccer instead of hockey.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on May 03, 2022, 01:16:19 pm
deficitHawks anyone... anyone...anyone

(https://i.imgur.com/I3GwoYL.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 06, 2022, 04:42:01 pm
per Nanos/G&M poll - a majority of Canadians are comfortable or somewhat comfortable with Liberal-NDP supply-and-confidence power-sharing agreement on through to June of 2025:

Quote
The NDP promised to pass future Liberal budgets, help defeat non-confidence measures proposed by the other opposition parties and block the Conservatives and Bloc Québécois from launching inquiries that “cause unnecessary obstruction” for the Trudeau minority government. In exchange, the Liberals have vowed to consult the NDP on bills and make senior civil servants available for briefings on policy and legislation.

The deal says the parties agree to a guiding principle of “no surprises,” suggesting that the government will inform the NDP of major coming developments. Mr. Trudeau and NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh will meet at least once a quarter; there will also be regular meetings of the party House officers and a monthly “stock-take” meeting by an oversight group made up of staff and politicians.


(https://i.imgur.com/AZ9SFxn.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2022, 09:17:59 am
deficitHawks anyone... anyone...anyone

(https://i.imgur.com/I3GwoYL.gif)

Harpers biggest deficit was 55.6B during the height of the financial crisis in 2009/10.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2022, 10:14:01 am
Harpers biggest deficit was 55.6B during the height of the financial crisis in 2009/10.

oh member wilber! The ever-go-to of Harper having to deal with "theGreatDepression" is a CPC/Conservative canard... in reality, Canada entered it later, its impact was milder and its duration shorter (just 7 months) than that of any other G7 nation.

waldo linkee dump:

=> 6 charts show Stephen Harper has the worst economic record of any Prime Minister since World War II (https://pressprogress.ca/6_charts_show_stephen_harper_has_the_worst_economic_record_of_any_prime_minister_since_world_war_ii/)

=> Harper’s economic record the worst in Canada’s postwar history (https://spon.ca/harpers-economic-record-the-worst-in-canadas-postwar-history/2015/09/17/)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 09, 2022, 04:11:07 pm
oh member wilber! The ever-go-to of Harper having to deal with "theGreatDepression" is a CPC/Conservative canard... in reality, Canada entered it later, its impact was milder and its duration shorter (just 7 months) than that of any other G7 nation.

waldo linkee dump:

=> 6 charts show Stephen Harper has the worst economic record of any Prime Minister since World War II (https://pressprogress.ca/6_charts_show_stephen_harper_has_the_worst_economic_record_of_any_prime_minister_since_world_war_ii/)

=> Harper’s economic record the worst in Canada’s postwar history (https://spon.ca/harpers-economic-record-the-worst-in-canadas-postwar-history/2015/09/17/)

Doesn't his "economic record" include the mild and short duration of post-2008 crisis, according to your "everything in an economy is caused by the PM" flawed logic.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2022, 09:09:16 pm
Doesn't his "economic record" include the mild and short duration of post-2008 crisis, according to your "everything in an economy is caused by the PM" flawed logic.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Wanna bet?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2022, 10:30:29 am
Doesn't his "economic record" include the mild and short duration of post-2008 crisis, according to your "everything in an economy is caused by the PM" flawed logic.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

huh! It was the member wilber's revisionist slant that had him dredge up the ready go-to CPC/Conservative canard concerning the 'greatDepression of 2008/9' that Harper Conservatives had to deal with! Of course, the waldo rushed to the scene of this canard replay to reinforce, once again, that Canada entered it later, that its impact was milder and that its duration shorter (just 7 months) than that of any other G7 nation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2022, 10:38:52 am
Prime Minister Trudeau announces the creation of an independent public inquiry following the invocation of the Emergencies Act:

(https://i.imgur.com/7iiRZBo.gif)

it would seem this thread, this quoted post, is one of many possible threads/posts related to the invocation of the Emergencies Act... that 'journalist' Andrew Coyne's bloviating belongs: OPINION - If Marco Mendicino misled Parliament, he has to go (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-if-the-minister-misled-parliament-he-has-to-go/)

Quote
Of course, I can’t say with certainty the minister lied. I can’t know precisely what his state of mind was. Maybe there’s some construction of events that can be reconciled with his statements: either that the police asked for the Emergencies Act, or as he now maintains, that they asked for the “powers” therein. Who knows: maybe the cops are lying. But he should at the least be called back before the committee to explain himself. As should they.

yes waldo, yes, the independent public inquiry would most certainly cover such Andrew Coyne musings...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2022, 11:13:09 am
huh! It was the member wilber's revisionist slant that had him dredge up the ready go-to CPC/Conservative canard concerning the 'greatDepression of 2008/9' that Harper Conservatives had to deal with! Of course, the waldo rushed to the scene of this canard replay to reinforce, once again, that Canada entered it later, that its impact was milder and that its duration shorter (just 7 months) than that of any other G7 nation.

The great revisionist Waldo "forgets" the opposition were criticizing Harper for not spending more.
Trudeau added over 60 billion to the debt before covid.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2022, 12:23:52 pm
the business of Liberal governing business - Bill C-19 passed 3rd reading/adopted June 9th:
=> BILL C-19 An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures
(https://www.parl.ca/Content/Bills/441/Government/C-19/C-19_3/C-19_3.PDF)
(https://i.imgur.com/MxZLs7D.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2022, 04:18:58 pm
Liberal MP lies to parliament

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-if-the-minister-misled-parliament-he-has-to-go/

The funny thing, is that there no need to lie at all.  Canadians were firmly behind invoking the Emergencies Act.  Why are they shooting themselves in the foot about this?

geezaz member squiggy is back to his censoring ways... his deleting posts way! The waldo post that member squiggy just had to delete - wonder why, hey ya freakin' dickwad weasel! As follows, the deleted post member squiggy didn't care for - LOL!


hey now member squiggy - notwithstanding the usual bloviating CPC/Conservative bias that is Andrew Coyne, does the definitiveness of the OP thread title mirror what Coyne actually writes:

Quote
Of course, I can’t say with certainty the minister lied. I can’t know precisely what his state of mind was. Maybe there’s some construction of events that can be reconciled with his statements: either that the police asked for the Emergencies Act, or as he now maintains, that they asked for the “powers” therein. Who knows: maybe the cops are lying.

well does it?

and this warrants a thread of its own... when there are multiple threads on the 'freedumb convoy' and/or Emergencies Act?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2022, 04:45:52 pm
the business of Liberal governing business - Bill C-19 passed 3rd reading/adopted June 9th:
=> BILL C-19 An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures
(https://www.parl.ca/Content/Bills/441/Government/C-19/C-19_3/C-19_3.PDF)

key measures of Bill C-19:
(https://i.imgur.com/gtZ6CQD.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 10, 2022, 04:54:12 pm
Can't wait to curl up on the couch tonight and read all this waldoganda.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2022, 04:56:22 pm
Can't wait to curl up on the couch tonight and read all this waldoganda.

you're sayin' you want more... moooore!

(https://i.imgur.com/NkEfSys.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 10, 2022, 05:57:52 pm
Strongest growth?  We have an oil dependant economy and gas is $2 a litter and up worldwide because of Russian aggression.  WTF does that have to do with the Libs? Besides driving up said gas prices with sanctions and carbon taxes.

And yeah easy to lead in deficit reduction when you had one of the biggest deficits last year in the G7 to begin with.

Debt to GDP?  Yeah now do household debt to GDP.  Canada has the highest % of income spent on mortgages per capita in the developed world.  #thanksLiberals
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 11, 2022, 12:21:32 pm
Strongest growth?

c'mon Nipples! If you have doubts or skepticism over those 2022 & 2023 'strongest growth' projections for Canada compared to other G7 countries, perhaps you should attempt to question/counter those projections coming from the OECD, the IMF and Moody's - yes?

Yeah now do household debt to GDP.  Canada has the highest % of income spent on mortgages per capita in the developed world.  #thanksLiberals

oh my! Are you seriously comparing government debt management to... household debt? Really? Geezaz Nipples, that's just dumb!

Government-Household analogy:
 
Quote
The Government-House analogy refers to rhetoric in political economic discourse that compares the finances of a federal government to those of a household. The analogy has frequently been made in debates about government debt, with critics of government debt arguing that greater government debt is equivalent to a household taking on more debt.

The analogy has been characterized by economists as misleading and false, as the functions and constraints of governments and households are vastly dissimilar. Differences include that governments can print money, interest rates on government borrowing may be cheaper than individual borrowing, governments can increase their budgets through taxation, governments have indefinite planning horizons, national debt may be held primarily domestically (the equivalent of household members owing each other), governments typically have greater collateral for borrowing, and contractions in government spending can cause or prolong economic crises and increase the debt of the government. For governments, the main risks of overspending may revolve around inflation rather than the size of the debt per se.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2022, 04:24:37 am
c'mon Nipples! If you have doubts or skepticism over those 2022 & 2023 'strongest growth' projections for Canada compared to other G7 countries, perhaps you should attempt to question/counter those projections coming from the OECD, the IMF and Moody's - yes?

still waiting Nipples, still waiting!

oh my! Are you seriously comparing government debt management to... household debt? Really? Geezaz Nipples, that's just dumb!

Government-Household analogy:

only an unknowing simpleton like Nipples would even attempt such an analogy. Clearly his silence here... is golden!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2022, 07:11:24 pm
Trudeau shirking inflation fight. Scotiabank states the obvious, increased government spending is inflationary and the resulting increase in interest rates penalize the public and business.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/trudeau-is-shirking-canada-s-inflation-fight-scotiabank-1.1781115
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 20, 2022, 07:19:28 pm
Trudeau shirking inflation fight. Scotiabank states the obvious, increased government spending is inflationary and the resulting increase in interest rates penalize the public and business.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/trudeau-is-shirking-canada-s-inflation-fight-scotiabank-1.1781115

This seems to be a popular right wing talking point…. blaming government COVID spending. 

I’m thinking a large tax increase on corporations like banks that rake in billions in profit over decades would help us ease government deficits, but, for corporations like Scotia Bank, the solution is cutting services to regular people.

The Liberal way is neither of these options, it seems…but, to blame government for a global issue is rather rich. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2022, 07:43:46 pm
This seems to be a popular right wing talking point…. blaming government COVID spending. 

I’m thinking a large tax increase on corporations like banks that rake in billions in profit over decades would help us ease government deficits, but, for corporations like Scotia Bank, the solution is cutting services to regular people.

The Liberal way is neither of these options, it seems…but, to blame government for a global issue is rather rich.

They are blaming them for continued high government spending while the BoC increases rates to slow private spending. As if one is inflationary and the other isn't.

Like bankers know nothing about economics or something.

This government will not balance a budget, ever. It's just not in their DNA.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 20, 2022, 07:58:07 pm
They are blaming them for continued high government spending while the BoC increases rates to slow private spending. As if one is inflationary and the other isn't.

Like bankers know nothing about economics or something.

This government will not balance a budget, ever. It's just not in their DNA.

Bankers look after bank profits.  Less private spending = less loans given by banks = less profits.  They’re not looking out for Canada’s, or Canadian’s, interests. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 20, 2022, 09:12:11 pm
Bankers look after bank profits.  Less private spending = less loans given by banks = less profits.  They’re not looking out for Canada’s, or Canadian’s, interests.

He isn't complaining about high interest rates reducing private spending, he is saying increased government spending defeats their purpose.

What is the point of the BoC trying to drive inflation down with high interest rates to slow private spending when government is doing the opposite.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 21, 2022, 11:57:09 am
It definitely sucks when ordinary people have money to spend on things, this needs to stop.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on June 22, 2022, 12:21:20 am
It definitely sucks when ordinary people have money to spend on things, this needs to stop.

Ordinary people make your coffee and flip your Big Mac or change your oil and stock the shelves at your local grocer and all the other stuff that people take for granted.

As wages continue to stagnate while cost of rent and food and gas increase rapidly, the people who do those jobs in your community won't be able to afford to do those jobs in your community for much longer.  This will probably impact Dethbridge later than it will hit Toronto or Vancouver or even Kim City, but it will arrive sooner or later.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 22, 2022, 10:43:36 am
Ordinary people make your coffee and flip your Big Mac or change your oil and stock the shelves at your local grocer and all the other stuff that people take for granted.

As wages continue to stagnate while cost of rent and food and gas increase rapidly, the people who do those jobs in your community won't be able to afford to do those jobs in your community for much longer.  This will probably impact Dethbridge later than it will hit Toronto or Vancouver or even Kim City, but it will arrive sooner or later.

 -k

The point is raising interest rates will put put more of those people out of work and make it harder for them to pay their already high housing costs along with all the other necessities of life, the prices of which will continue to increase.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 05:43:56 pm
The only thing governments can do to combat inflation is try and reduce demand. The only tool they have is higher interest rates.
I don't know how governments thought they could continue to promote growth through low interest rates and huge government spending and not have increased inflation.
Maintaining they could was either wishful thinking or BS.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on June 22, 2022, 06:25:07 pm

I don't know how governments thought they could continue to promote growth through low interest rates and huge government spending and not have increased inflation.
 

Yeah, geez it only worked for 13 years eh ?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 08:38:55 pm
Yeah, geez it only worked for 13 years eh ?

Really? When else did a government print over 300 billion in one year and dump it into the economy? The housing market is collapsing because interest rates have gone just over 2%. What do you think drove them up?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 22, 2022, 08:59:07 pm
The only thing governments can do to combat inflation is try and reduce demand. The only tool they have is higher interest rates.
I don't know how governments thought they could continue to promote growth through low interest rates and huge government spending and not have increased inflation.
Maintaining they could was either wishful thinking or BS.

The gov can also combat inflation with higher taxes and lower stimulus spending.  They won't do the taxes thing and probably won't do the reduced spending.

They aren't going to fix gas prices so there's only limited things they can do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 09:33:36 pm
The gov can also combat inflation with higher taxes and lower stimulus spending.  They won't do the taxes thing and probably won't do the reduced spending.

They aren't going to fix gas prices so there's only limited things they can do.

Interesting article on the CEEB today.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gas-tax-canada-biden-1.6497640
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 22, 2022, 09:41:07 pm
Interesting article on the CEEB today.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gas-tax-canada-biden-1.6497640

Wouldn’t making gas cheaper also push up inflation? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 09:59:46 pm
Wouldn’t making gas cheaper also push up inflation?

The high price of fuel is one of the primary drivers of inflation. It is increasing the cost of just about everything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 22, 2022, 10:03:25 pm
The high price of fuel is one of the primary drivers of inflation. It is increasing the cost of just about everything.

Why gas?  Why not food?  Rent? 

The obsession with fuel prices, and not rent and food, are driven by rightwing talking points. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 10:16:37 pm
Why gas?  Why not food?  Rent? 

The obsession with fuel prices, and not rent and food, are driven by rightwing talking points.

Everything you consume is delivered to you by something powered by diesel and or gasoline.. Farmers require fuel to run their machinery. Fossil fuels are required for the production of all kinds of items.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 22, 2022, 10:34:38 pm
Everything you consume is delivered to you by something powered by diesel and or gasoline.. Farmers require fuel to run their machinery. Fossil fuels are required for the production of all kinds of items.

Wow!  REALLY??  I had no idea the stuff in my store came on trucks, trains and ships!   Thanks for answering a question that wasn’t asked….  🙄
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 11:08:59 pm
Wow!  REALLY??  I had no idea the stuff in my store came on trucks, trains and ships!   Thanks for answering a question that wasn’t asked….  🙄

Well what do you think the high cost of fuel does to everything you consume?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 22, 2022, 11:19:53 pm
Well what do you think the high cost of fuel does to everything you consume?

Why fuel?  Why not rent and food? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 11:40:57 pm
Why fuel?  Why not rent and food?

So, do you want rent controls?
Increased fuel and fertilizer costs increase the cost of food, not just production but transporting it to your store.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 22, 2022, 11:45:44 pm
So, do you want rent controls?
Increased fuel and fertilizer costs increase the cost of food, not just production but transporting it to your store.

Sure. Rent controls.  Pay for it with a tax on banks and other corporations. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2022, 11:51:11 pm
Sure. Rent controls.  Pay for it with a tax on banks and other corporations.

That would be a rent subsidy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 22, 2022, 11:56:58 pm
Wouldn’t making gas cheaper also push up inflation?

How would it do that?  It's the complete opposite LOL.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 23, 2022, 12:01:47 am
Trudeau should suspend the carbon tax temporarily until inflation, especially on gas, drops back down to reasonable levels.  But he won't.  He doesn't even drive or pump gas I assume.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 12:50:20 am
How would it do that?  It's the complete opposite LOL.

Cheaper gas will drive up demand, which increases inflation. It will also decrease government revenues. 

That’s why interest rates are being increased; to reduce demand.  An increase in taxes would have a similar effect.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on June 23, 2022, 05:43:25 am
Excess profit taking is happening, and hoarding of wealth.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2022, 08:39:42 am
Excess profit taking is happening, and hoarding of wealth.

A greater concentration of wealth among fewer people was going on during the period of low inflation. That is nothing new.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on June 23, 2022, 08:42:05 am
A greater concentration of wealth among fewer people was going on during the period of low inflation. That is nothing new.

Since the 1970s though ? 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2022, 10:09:55 am
Cheaper gas will drive up demand, which increases inflation. It will also decrease government revenues. 

That’s why interest rates are being increased; to reduce demand.  An increase in taxes would have a similar effect.

Demand for what? The high cost of fuel is one of the biggest components of the inflation we are experiencing. Other than money itself, I fail to see how something becoming cheaper is inflationary.

It will decrease government revenues because it charges GST on inflation, They even charge GST  on the carbon tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 10:27:48 am
I fail to see how something becoming cheaper is inflationary.

Then you don’t really understand economics and inflationary pressures. 

Quote
But while the policies are aimed at helping Americans weather the fastest pace of inflation in 40 years, economists warn that, paradoxically, cutting taxes could exacerbate the very problem lawmakers are trying to address. By putting more money in people’s pockets, policymakers risk further stimulating already rampant consumer demand, pushing prices higher nationally.
Jason Furman, an economist at Harvard University who was an economic adviser under the Obama administration, said that the United States economy was producing at full capacity right now and that any additional spending power would only drive up demand and prices. But when it comes to cutting taxes, he acknowledged, the incentives for states do not always appear to be aligned with what is best for the national economy.

“I think all these tax cuts in states are adding to inflation,” Mr. Furman said. “The problem is, from any governor’s perspective, a lot of the inflation it is adding is nationwide and a lot of the benefits of the tax cuts are to the states.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/10/us/politics/states-tax-cuts-inflation.html
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2022, 10:45:18 am
Then you don’t really understand economics and inflationary pressures. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/10/us/politics/states-tax-cuts-inflation.html

Taxes are component of inflation, particularly consumption taxes. As prices go up, so does the amount of tax being charged on them. By your logic, we should tax our way out of inflation by doubling the GST.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 11:11:02 am
Taxes are component of inflation, particularly consumption taxes. As prices go up, so does the amount of tax being charged on them. By your logic, we should tax our way out of inflation by doubling the GST.

If your only goal is to curb inflation, then yes.  That would likely have some effect.   It would also reduce the deficit significantly. 

But, at least you now agree with me….   a decrease in taxes leads to inflationary pressures.  Glad you’re not confused any longer. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2022, 11:55:28 am
If your only goal is to curb inflation, then yes.  That would likely have some effect.   It would also reduce the deficit significantly. 

But, at least you now agree with me….   a decrease in taxes leads to inflationary pressures.  Glad you’re not confused any longer.
Inflation is caused by increased costs, consumption taxes are one of these costs. I guess we could just give all our money to government but I bet they would still run deficits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 12:13:03 pm
Inflation is caused by increased costs, consumption taxes are one of these costs. I guess we could just give all our money to government but I bet they would still run deficits.

You’re creating a strawman now.  No one said anything about giving all our money to govt or even raising taxes.  Only you did to try and deflect from the topic. 

The point is, and I think you finally agreed, that lowering taxes on things like fuel, is actually an inflationary pressure that would increase inflation.   You claimed to not understand how making something cheaper could cause inflation. I explained how through the citation given.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2022, 12:32:56 pm
You’re creating a strawman now.  No one said anything about giving all our money to govt or even raising taxes.  Only you did to try and deflect from the topic. 

The point is, and I think you finally agreed, that lowering taxes on things like fuel, is actually an inflationary pressure that would increase inflation.   You claimed to not understand how making something cheaper could cause inflation. I explained how through the citation given.

Higher prices mean paying more tax. That's how consumption taxes work. When it comes to fuel, they even tax the tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 12:40:04 pm
Higher prices mean paying more tax. That's how consumption taxes work. When it comes to fuel, they even tax the tax.

Let’s tie a bow on this part of the thread….

Do you now understand how lowering taxes on things like fuel leads to further inflationary pressures?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2022, 01:07:53 pm
Let’s tie a bow on this part of the thread….

Do you now understand how lowering taxes on things like fuel leads to further inflationary pressures?

Higher fuel prices are a big component of the inflation we are experiencing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 02:07:27 pm
Higher fuel prices are a big component of the inflation we are experiencing.

Did you read the article I linked? 

Lowering taxes on fuel prices will increase inflation.  Agree?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 23, 2022, 02:55:24 pm
Did you read the article I linked? 

Lowering taxes on fuel prices will increase inflation.  Agree?

Not really.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on June 23, 2022, 06:01:33 pm
Not really.

You don’t believe the economist from Harvard in the article?

I’m thinking it doesn’t fit with your narrative, so it can’t be true. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2022, 11:40:02 pm
You don’t believe the economist from Harvard in the article?

I’m thinking it doesn’t fit with your narrative, so it can’t be true.

It assumes lowering fuel costs will drive up demand to a point where there is inflation, ignoring the inflation caused by high fuel costs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 06, 2022, 06:47:54 am
Federal Liberal government seeking private-sector solution for export of East Coast LNG to Europe (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-ottawa-seeking-private-sector-solution-for-export-of-east-coast-lng-to/)

Quote
Natural Resources Minister Jonathan Wilkinson says two private-sector proposals to export liquefied natural gas from Canada’s East Coast to European countries struggling to reduce their reliance on Russian fuel will need to move forward without federal financing.

Mr. Wilkinson said in an interview that Ottawa is aiding in discussions between Canadian energy companies and prospective German buyers of LNG. But he added that the two energy proposals will have to stand on their own merits and go through Canadian regulatory reviews to ensure they meet this country’s climate goals.

“Our view is the private sector should be putting up the money for these projects, and it should be done on a commercial basis,” Mr. Wilkinson said.

“We’re certainly willing to assist in the conversations with our friends in Germany who are looking for these kinds of supplies to ensure that there are long-term arrangements, contractual arrangements that provide certainty for the private sector.”
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2022, 12:19:36 am

in Grande Prairie Alberta - video of degenerate conspiracy theorist & bully, Elliot McDavid, confronting Deputy PM Freeland as she visits Alberta (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1563337783309398016/pu/vid/360x640/c-w4yhgFf6zWlBe7.mp4?tag=12)

Chrystia Freeland latest target of public threats, intimidation against women in Canadian politics (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harassment-women-public-life-journalists-politicians-1.6564376)

The Attack on Freeland Sprouts from ‘Rage Farming’ (https://thetyee.ca/News/2022/08/27/Attack-Freeland-Rage-Farming/) --- Reached by The Tyee, the bully caught on video echoes messages fomented by right-wing politicians.

(https://i.imgur.com/yJtrvYX.gif)

geezaz waldo! Is Coyne pointing at Poilievre? Well duh - of course he is. Meanwhile politicians across Canada (of all party stripes) are coming forward to denounce this bullying intimidation of Ms. Freeland. Noticeably absent in that mix is Poilievre!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2022, 09:59:12 am
Federal Liberal government seeking private-sector solution for export of East Coast LNG to Europe (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-ottawa-seeking-private-sector-solution-for-export-of-east-coast-lng-to/)

If history is any indication, the regulatory reviews and lawsuits will eat up at least five years before construction can start.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2022, 01:26:35 pm
If history is any indication, the regulatory reviews and lawsuits will eat up at least five years before construction can start.

of course Russia is weaponizing energy; notwithstanding the German Chancellor's recent days visit to Canada focused on hydrogen, his 'side expression' on LNG must be prefaced with the fact Germany currently has little LNG import capacity.

both of the 2 Atlantic Canada proposals to build LNG terminals were shelved last year principally given the lack of interest by pipeline owners to spend money on required pipeline upgrades... notwithstanding one of those proposals also included a subsidy request to the federal government for ~$1 billion to aid in terminal development. The federal government did spend $4.5 billion to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline but that was not a subsidy; rather it was, of course, a move to keep the project from being outright shuttered!

given the backdrop of the Russia/Ukraine war, it appears those 2 Atlantic Canada LNG terminal proposals have resurfaced in terms of new 'feasibility studies'; one as a significantly scaled down development version requiring fewer pipeline upgrades... but yes, certainly, a lengthy permitting process and stakeholder pushback remain as significant obstacles to development.

what appears more likely/viable is adding export expansion capability to the existing New Brunswick 'Repsol' LNG facility that uses/relies upon Canada's East Coast gas supply - a supply capacity sufficient to service only the single Repsol LNG facility:

Quote from: Environment Minister Steven Guilbeault
Repsol is probably the fastest project that could be deployed because it requires minimal permitting – there’s already an existing facility, and a gas line is right there.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 28, 2022, 05:36:24 pm
of course Russia is weaponizing energy; notwithstanding the German Chancellor's recent days visit to Canada focused on hydrogen, his 'side expression' on LNG must be prefaced with the fact Germany currently has little LNG import capacity.

both of the 2 Atlantic Canada proposals to build LNG terminals were shelved last year principally given the lack of interest by pipeline owners to spend money on required pipeline upgrades... notwithstanding one of those proposals also included a subsidy request to the federal government for ~$1 billion to aid in terminal development. The federal government did spend $4.5 billion to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline but that was not a subsidy; rather it was, of course, a move to keep the project from being outright shuttered!

given the backdrop of the Russia/Ukraine war, it appears those 2 Atlantic Canada LNG terminal proposals have resurfaced in terms of new 'feasibility studies'; one as a significantly scaled down development version requiring fewer pipeline upgrades... but yes, certainly, a lengthy permitting process and stakeholder pushback remain as significant obstacles to development.

what appears more likely/viable is adding export expansion capability to the existing New Brunswick 'Repsol' LNG facility that uses/relies upon Canada's East Coast gas supply - a supply capacity sufficient to service only the single Repsol LNG facility:
At least you’ve learned a valuable lesson.  That relying on other countries to produce energy is a very bad idea, for several reasons.  Hopefully Wonder boy has also learned this lesson.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 28, 2022, 05:54:53 pm
Most countries have to rely on other countries for essential products.

The key is maybe don't trust Russia or China too much.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2022, 08:47:41 pm
At least you’ve learned a valuable lesson.  That relying on other countries to produce energy is a very bad idea, for several reasons.  Hopefully {PM Trudeau} has also learned this lesson.

the waldo calls for a referee decision: is it still a Shady strawman when it's based on a Shady misinforming fabrication?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 28, 2022, 09:04:21 pm
the waldo calls for a referee decision: is it still a Shady strawman when it's based on a Shady misinforming fabrication?
Hey buddy!  Wonder boy ships coal to China to use, because he doesn’t like us using it.  Apparently when China uses it, the environment likes it better.  Wonder boy continues to make it more difficult for western Canada to produce oil, but he doesn’t have any problem with Saudi production.  Your leader is a laughing stock.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 22, 2022, 11:50:36 pm
Hey buddy!  Wonder boy ships coal to China to use, because he doesn’t like us using it.  Apparently when China uses it, the environment likes it better.

Canadian coal exports are almost exclusively for metallurgical applications... not thermal - try again, try harder!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 23, 2022, 12:11:58 am
Press Gallery journalist Dale Smith tweeted:

    {CPC MP Garnett} Genuis tries to includes lyrics from “Bohemian Rhapsody” in his question, and I cannot adequately tell you how lame it is.
    When horses are this lame, you shoot them.

    — Dale Smith (@journo_dale) September 21, 2022

and Poilievre & Scheer fell into their fainting couches while the CPC and lapdogs launched a campaign to have journalist Smith's access to the Press Gallery removed! Skippy calls it an, 'incitement to violence', no less!

(https://i.imgur.com/nubTwy5.gif)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 23, 2022, 09:13:15 am
and Poilievre & Scheer fell into their fainting couches while the CPC and lapdogs launched a campaign to have journalist Smith's access to the Press Gallery removed! Skippy calls it an, 'incitement to violence', no less!

as Poilievre continues this Trumpian rage farming strategy against the media... against 'fake news'... against 'the enemy of the people', a reminder to what he said during that Jordan Peterson podcast:

Quote from: skippy Poilievre
The political media in the parliamentary press gallery are part of the establishment that finds me threatening because I’m upsetting the apple cart
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 23, 2022, 09:17:58 am
as Poilievre continues this Trumpian rage farming strategy against the media... against 'fake news'... against 'the enemy of the people', a reminder to what he said during that Jordan Peterson podcast:
Somebody's gettin' scared! LOL.  Wonder boy's going down, and you know it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 23, 2022, 09:37:36 am
c'mon Shady! Why is skippy rage farming against the media? Just in his first week as CPC leader, Poilievre held a 'no questions allowed press conference', called Conservative-leaning journalist Akin a 'Liberal heckler'... and now this manufactured outrage against a Parliamentary Press Gallery journalist! What's up with your boy, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 23, 2022, 09:41:41 am
c'mon Shady! Why is skippy rage farming against the media? Just in his first week as CPC leader, Poilievre held a 'no questions allowed press conference', called Conservative-leaning journalist Akin a 'Liberal heckler'... and now this manufactured outrage against a Parliamentary Press Gallery journalist! What's up with your boy, hey!
Why does Wonder Boy rage farm at Canadians he doesn’t like?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on September 23, 2022, 10:19:52 am
Why does Wonder Boy rage farm at Canadians he doesn’t like?

Because they suck and most Canadians agree with him?

Quote
Most Canadians say they would hold a negative view of a politician who openly supported the trucker protest that took place in Ottawa earlier this year, a new survey from Nanos Research shows.

The survey, which was conducted by Nanos and commissioned by CTV News, found about 70 per cent of participants would have a more or somewhat more negative impression of a politician in such a case, with residents in Quebec more likely to hold a more negative view (70 per cent) than those from the Prairies (58 per cent).

link (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/majority-of-canadians-view-a-politician-s-open-support-of-trucker-protest-as-negative-survey-1.6057140)

lol even in Alberta:

Quote
A majority of Albertans did not support the goals of the Freedom Convoy, or the means protesters used to try and achieve them, a recent survey from the University of Alberta suggests.

The online survey was carried out in the spring, in partnership with the research firm Pollara, and received 2,224 responses.

Sixty-one per cent of people who responded said they disagreed with the goals of the convoy.

Sixty-seven per cent said they opposed the convoy's methods, which included shutting down the area around Ottawa's Parliament Hill and blocking border crossings between Canada and the United States.

link
 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/freedom-convoy-opinions-alberta-1.6571653)
(online survey warning. Still funny tho!)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 23, 2022, 10:39:08 am
Because they suck and most Canadians agree with him?

link (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/majority-of-canadians-view-a-politician-s-open-support-of-trucker-protest-as-negative-survey-1.6057140)

lol even in Alberta:

link
 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/freedom-convoy-opinions-alberta-1.6571653)
(online survey warning. Still funny tho!)
There's a difference between not supporting a certain cause, like body autonomy and medical privacy, and calling people nazis and racists.  It's unbecoming of a Prime Minister, and complete rage farming.  Good on you to coming to Trudeau's aid again though, his d**k in your mouth as usual.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on September 23, 2022, 10:55:26 am
There's a difference between not supporting a certain cause, like body autonomy and medical privacy, and calling people nazis and racists.  It's unbecoming of a Prime Minister, and complete rage farming. 

The convoy organizers were Nazis and racists lmao.

Quote
Good on you to coming to Trudeau's aid again though, his d**k in your mouth as usual.

We can always count on you to be thinking of JT's c**k.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 23, 2022, 11:47:59 am
The convoy organizers were Naazis and racists lmao.

**** and groomers too.

There's bad people on both sides!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 23, 2022, 12:08:20 pm
The convoy organizers were Nazis and racists lmao.
Lmao only to authoritarian sacks of crap.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on September 23, 2022, 12:14:56 pm
Hilarious watching people who have told me they support the government criminalizing the possession of a plant pretend they don't usually have a hardon for authoritarianism. 😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 19, 2022, 12:15:05 pm
re: Emergencies Act Inquiry:

oh my! Apparently PeePee et al are really, really, really ticked at Ontario Premier Ford for his 'standing shoulder to shoulder with PM Trudeau' statement!

Ford stands with Trudeau on trucker evictions, saying he has ‘zero tolerance’ for disrupting residents’ lives, commerce.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2022, 05:11:37 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfmZMKWXEAAp6XK?format=jpg)

OPP Superintendent Pat Morris confirmed that Poilievre and CPC MPs support for the Freedumb Convoy made it worse by legitimizing them!

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2022, 05:26:04 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ejvoGIM.gif)

Mr. Poilievre has enjoyed dental care paid by taxpayers for nearly 20 years — but he doesn't believe your children deserve the same. It's callous and it's wrong. (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1582831038774284288/vid/720x720/38ITWuBv9z9k0up6.mp4?tag=14)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 21, 2022, 06:24:38 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ejvoGIM.gif)

Mr. Poilievre has enjoyed dental care paid by taxpayers for nearly 20 years — but he doesn't believe your children deserve the same. It's callous and it's wrong. (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1582831038774284288/vid/720x720/38ITWuBv9z9k0up6.mp4?tag=14)
The costly coalition’s dental scheme is a huge Trojan horse.  It’s always funny to hear from the Rolex wearing socialist though.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on October 21, 2022, 06:50:45 pm
Everyone knows money should go to tax breaks for the rich instead of dental care for children.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 21, 2022, 07:03:45 pm
Everyone knows money should go to tax breaks for the rich instead of dental care for children.
I remember when I was as ignorant as you, thinking that these binary choices were the only choices.  Eventually you may start thinking on your own, without other people telling you how to.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on October 21, 2022, 07:07:04 pm
You are always in favour of tax cuts to the rich and always opposed to programs that help the working poor. Seems pretty binary to me.

Hilarious that you would talk about thinking for yourself, when I can Google your posts and find they came word-for-word from Putin-friendly extreme right-wing blogs. 😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 21, 2022, 08:14:22 pm
You are always in favour of tax cuts to the rich and always opposed to programs that help the working poor. Seems pretty binary to me.

Hilarious that you would talk about thinking for yourself, when I can Google your posts and find they came word-for-word from Putin-friendly extreme right-wing blogs. 😂
Just more of your false choices, and straw man premises.  It’s all you’ve got.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 21, 2022, 09:19:13 pm
This assumes low-income children already weren't covered for free dental by provinces (who control health care under the constitution).  So what problem is this actually trying to solve?

https://www.ontario.ca/page/get-dental-care

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/british-columbians-our-governments/organizational-structure/ministries-organizations/social-development-poverty-reduction/healthy-kids.pdf

So is this a case where the NDP and Liberals may not have to pay hardly any money on this program while virtue signaling how they care about kids and how the CPC doesn't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on October 21, 2022, 09:53:03 pm
This assumes low-income children already weren't covered for free dental by provinces (who control health care under the constitution).  So what problem is this actually trying to solve?

https://www.ontario.ca/page/get-dental-care

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/british-columbians-our-governments/organizational-structure/ministries-organizations/social-development-poverty-reduction/healthy-kids.pdf

So is this a case where the NDP and Liberals may not have to pay hardly any money on this program while virtue signaling how they care about kids and how the CPC doesn't.

It doesn’t assume no dental coverage…. It covers kids who don’t have it already.  And it will cost about $0.7 billion.  So, that’s not really “hardly any money”.   Do you even bother to look into what you post about?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 25, 2022, 11:46:47 am
re: Emergencies Act Inquiry:

oh my! Apparently PeePee et al are really, really, really ticked at Ontario Premier Ford for his 'standing shoulder to shoulder with PM Trudeau' statement!

Ford stands with Trudeau on trucker evictions, saying he has ‘zero tolerance’ for disrupting residents’ lives, commerce.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ffr4r11WQAM5fbv?format=jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/f6t6S7a.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 26, 2022, 11:24:14 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfmZMKWXEAAp6XK?format=jpg)

OPP Superintendent Pat Morris confirmed that Poilievre and CPC MPs support for the Freedumb Convoy made it worse by legitimizing them!

I mean he is a c*nt for having dinner with people illegally occupying the streets of the capital.  Maybe he should have been arrested for supporting criminal activity.  Oh wait I forgot the police were afraid to arrest anyone because they all have vaginas and Trudeau was afraid to send in any federal enforcement or military because he has a big wet **** too.  Oh and Ford was just standing around being all retarded.

I heard the media say the police in downtown Ottawa had dildos inside their gun holsters (for their vaginas, if you're not following).  Imagine the queefs being letting loose at the police stations in Ottawa back in Feb.

I like how they're all on the stand now blaming each other for being stupid, and they're all being caught in their lies n stuff.  I guess looking like a stupid cowardly POS is better than going to jail for perjury.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2022, 10:15:53 am
Anyone notice the more nervous waldo gets, the more strident his posts become.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 27, 2022, 12:02:12 pm
Anyone notice the more nervous waldo gets, the more strident his posts become.
Definitely.  His government day to day posts revolve around the opposition that has very little governing power, while he ignores or defends the actual governing party.  A good post for this thread would be the $54 million dollar arrive can app, in which the government refuses to release the list of the contractors that received money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 29, 2022, 07:05:24 am
Anyone notice the more nervous waldo gets, the more strident his posts become.

what's the waldo got to be nervous about, hey! Surely you're not shifting and now becoming a champion of PeePee - are you? Say it ain't so, hey!

the waldo nervously asks... is it true that the Supply & Confidence Agreement between the Liberals and NDP runs on through to June of 2025? What does that mean, hey wilber? What does that mean?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 29, 2022, 07:10:48 am
(https://www.thebeaverton.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Freedom_Convoy_2022_Ottawa_February_12_5-800x600.jpg)

the Beaverton, no less! “Police: We could have handled Freedom Convoy without Emergencies Act, we just didn’t wanna (https://www.thebeaverton.com/2022/10/police-say-they-could-have-handled-freedom-convoy-without-emergencies-act-they-just-didnt-wanna/)”

Quote
OTTAWA – As police officers from the RCMP, OPP and Ottawa Police continue to downplay the necessity of the Emergencies Act in finally ending the Freedom Convoy Protest, they have made it clear they could have ended the inquiry weeks earlier with the tools at their disposal, they just didn’t feel like it.

“We already had a plan of action in place to remove the protestors from downtown Ottawa,” said one OPP official. “We just waited for a month until after the Emergencies Act was passed because it seemed more fun that way.”

“Also we wanted to wait until a day when the weather was nice.”

The Officers position of ‘trust us bro, we were totally getting around to it’ has resulted in several questions from residents curious why the Police allowed Protestors to severely impact life in the nation’s capital for as long as they did.

“I understand people are frustrated. But the fact is we would have reached the same resolution without the Emergencies Act. It just would have taken a month or two longer which is no big deal right?” asked one Ottawa Police officer.

“I guess you could say that, even if the provisions of the Emergencies Act weren’t necessary, the public pressure of the Act being used for the first time in history motivated us to finally stop taking selfies with the Protestors and actually take the action we could have from the very beginning, but nah. That’s not it.”

In related news a person who does not live in Ottawa has testified that the Freedom Convoy protests weren’t that bad anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2022, 11:25:30 am
re: Emergencies Act Inquiry: at the inquiry yesterday, notorious instigatingConvoyOrganizingBadMan, Pat King, was grilled over several of his comments, most notably, his brash&bold comment about PM Trudeau catching a bullet. King as much claimed the comment was taken "out of context"... that he wasn't inciting violence.; that he was simply warning that someone could snap under the pressure from the COVID rules imposed by governments. Oh my - so misunderstood is Mr. King!

geezaz, the waldo has never before seen this photo... hey waldo, isn't that Pat King hobnobbin' with PeePee?

(https://i.imgur.com/6utSQ8c.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 03, 2022, 11:30:06 am
re: Emergencies Act Inquiry: at the inquiry yesterday, notorious instigatingConvoyOrganizingBadMan, Pat King, was grilled over several of his comments, most notably, his brash&bold comment about PM Trudeau catching a bullet. King as much claimed the comment was taken "out of context"... that he wasn't inciting violence.; that he was simply warning that someone could snap under the pressure from the COVID rules imposed by governments. Oh my - so misunderstood is Mr. King!

geezaz, the waldo has never before seen this photo... hey waldo, isn't that Pat King hobnobbin' with PeePee?

(https://i.imgur.com/6utSQ8c.jpg)
Hey, is your boy Trudeau gonna testify, since he's the one that invoked the emergencies act?  Shouldn't he be witness #1?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2022, 12:03:42 pm
Hey, is your boy Trudeau gonna testify, since he's the one that invoked the emergencies act?  Shouldn't he be witness #1?

just one of several like instances... if you weren't so preoccupied with your far-right misinformin', you would know this!
Quote from: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
October 11th - I'm very much looking forward to testifying on the government’s use of the Emergencies Act to put an end to the so-called “Freedom Convoy” protests.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 03, 2022, 12:23:32 pm
just one of several like instances... if you weren't so preoccupied with your far-right misinformin', you would know this!
Nice!  Are the list of contractors that received arrive can money going to finally be released?  Or are they still stonewalling?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2022, 12:31:40 pm
Nice!  Are the list of contractors that received arrive can money going to finally be released?  Or are they still stonewalling?

hey now lil' buddy. There's a motion passed to have the Auditor General do an audit... try to keep up, hey! Of course you're channelling your PeePee boy's fervid efforts to deflect away from the Emergencies Inquiry.

and by the by, since you asked, just when is the Freedumb Convoy supporter Poilievre going to appear before the Emergencies Act Inquiry? When's that going to happen, hey! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 03, 2022, 05:38:42 pm
hey now lil' buddy. There's a motion passed to have the Auditor General do an audit... try to keep up, hey! Of course you're channelling your PeePee boy's fervid efforts to deflect away from the Emergencies Inquiry.

and by the by, since you asked, just when is the Freedumb Convoy supporter Poilievre going to appear before the Emergencies Act Inquiry? When's that going to happen, hey! LOL!
Why is an audit needed?  You mean the Trudeau regime doesn’t know which companies it gave tax payer money too?  Yikes.  Bad governance!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2022, 07:42:44 pm
Why is an audit needed?  You mean the Trudeau regime doesn’t know which companies it gave tax payer money too?  Yikes.  Bad governance!

the audit driver is PeePee - desperately trying to shift the narrative, shift the focus, away from the Emergencies Act Inquiry. But hey now, how come you didn't answer my question; again:

and by the by, since you asked, just when is the Freedumb Convoy supporter Poilievre going to appear before the Emergencies Act Inquiry? When's that going to happen, hey! LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 03, 2022, 07:47:20 pm
the audit driver is PeePee - desperately trying to shift the narrative, shift the focus, away from the Emergencies Act Inquiry. But hey now, how come you didn't answer my question; again:
Once again, why is an audit needed?  You mean the Trudeau regime doesn’t know who it sent tax money to?  Bad governance!
Why would Pierre have to testify?  He’s not the one that irresponsibly invoked the emergencies act over cars honking.  That was Wonder boy’s doing, and he was quite proud of it back then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 03, 2022, 11:45:30 pm
Once again, why is an audit needed?  You mean the Trudeau regime doesn’t know who it sent tax money to?  Bad governance!

you tell me/us - other than PeePee/CPC desperately wanting to change the channel away from the Emergencies Act Inquiry! You keep mentioning a dollar figure but, asking for a friend, when Harper Conservatives had the keys waddabout that ~50 million spent on a 3 day baseball/Broadway Show excursion by Harper to New York City - asking for a friend!

Why would Pierre have to testify?  He’s not the one that irresponsibly invoked the emergencies act over cars honking.  That was Wonder boy’s doing, and he was quite proud of it back then.

surely PeePee would want to reinforce his freedomDrive; would want to amplify just why he/CPC provided such significant and profiled public support for the Freedumb Convoy - surely! We've already heard from a key police leader who testified that Poilievre/CPC, unfortunately, gave legitimacy to the protesters with their profiled support! Let PeePee answer to that, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2022, 12:08:14 am
great fun at the Emergencies Act Inquiry today! Convoy organizer James Bauder was asked why he called PM Trudeau "Justine." While labelling himself an "alpha male", Bauder said he was also a trucker, an oil patch & farm boy kind of guy... "and seeing, you know, little Miss Trudeau there in his boxing shorts with his juice box, water bottle sort of things. Yeah, we call him Justine." Hey now waldo, if you have to actually hype your alpha maleness, just how alpha are you, anyway! LOL!

waldo reminder: this Bauder clown was head of the Convoy faction calling themselves "Canada Unity"... the idgits that had the audacity to present a 15 page MOU calling for the overthrow of the existing federal government... for PM Trudeau to step down for "committing treason and crimes against humanity." And the co-conspirators supporting the Convoy keep saying if only PM Trudeau would have met with the Convoy Organizers the protest would have ended - if only, hey Shady!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 04, 2022, 08:56:58 am
you tell me/us - other than PeePee/CPC desperately wanting to change the channel away from the Emergencies Act Inquiry! You keep mentioning a dollar figure but, asking for a friend, when Harper Conservatives had the keys waddabout that ~50 million spent on a 3 day baseball/Broadway Show excursion by Harper to New York City - asking for a friend!
LOL, what about Harper!  Bwaaahaaaahaaa!

surely PeePee would want to reinforce his freedomDrive; would want to amplify just why he/CPC provided such significant and profiled public support for the Freedumb Convoy - surely! We've already heard from a key police leader who testified that Poilievre/CPC, unfortunately, gave legitimacy to the protesters with their profiled support! Let PeePee answer to that, hey!
It was Wonder boy that invoked the Emergencies Act.  It's up to him to justify it. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2022, 11:00:45 am
LOL, what about Harper!  Bwaaahaaaahaaa!

c'mon Shady! 3-peat Trudeau forces us to go back to Harper for like comparisons... that ~50 million Harper excursion to New York City (to see a Yankees game, take in a Broadway show) is just so easy to draw upon - that's gold when you want to throw down current day civil servant/procurement related costing. As the luddite you truly are, I appreciate you actually think PM Trudeau wrote the Arrive Can application code! LOL!

It was PM Trudeau that invoked the Emergencies Act.  It's up to him to justify it.

testimony to-date has shown just how weak/lame/limp the various police forces were... notwithstanding the actual 'information leaks' provided to the ConvoyFreedumbCrew by sympathetic police. And... recent days testimony from Convoy Organizers has been gold in realizing just how steadfast and long-haul committed the protestingAzzholes were. And let's highlight this lil' gem from Tamara Lich's testimony where she stated: "Within the first couple of days of us starting to organize before we left, I did have politicians reaching out to me that did want to get up and speak"... unfortunately as the waldo reads, the cross-examining lawyer didn't have the wherewithal to ask if one of those politicians was PeePee!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 04, 2022, 11:13:44 am
c'mon Shady! 3-peat Trudeau forces us to go back to Harper for like comparisons... that ~50 million Harper excursion to New York City (to see a Yankees game, take in a Broadway show) is just so easy to draw upon - that's gold when you want to throw down current day civil servant/procurement related costing. As the luddite you truly are, I appreciate you actually think PM Trudeau wrote the Arrive Can application code! LOL!
Classic whataboutism.  You can't defend the bad governance of Wonder boy, so you need to deflect to 8+ years ago with Harper.  Come'on man!

testimony to-date has shown just how weak/lame/limp the various police forces were... notwithstanding the actual 'information leaks' provided to the ConvoyFreedumbCrew by sympathetic police. And... recent days testimony from Convoy Organizers has been gold in realizing just how steadfast and long-haul committed the protestingAzzholes were. And let's highlight this lil' gem from Tamara Lich's testimony where she stated: "Within the first couple of days of us starting to organize before we left, I did have politicians reaching out to me that did want to get up and speak"... unfortunately as the waldo reads, the cross-examining lawyer didn't have the wherewithal to ask if one of those politicians was PeePee!
That's odd because the police were able to clear the protesters at the Ambassador Bridge.  It's almost as though Wonder boy and his regime wanted the protesters to stay there in Ottawa, so that they could use it for political purposes. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2022, 12:03:06 pm
Classic whataboutism.  You can't defend the bad governance of PM Trudeau, so you need to deflect to 8+ years ago with Harper.  Come'on man!

again, given how 3-peat Trudeau has so ravaged the governing opportunities for the CPC, we're forced to look back to HarperDays... cause that's where comparative samples exist! I note you're not even trying to substantiate that 50+ million taxpayer freeloading 3-day spendingpalooza that Harper took to see a ball game/Broadway show in New York City - indeed!

That's odd because the police were able to clear the protesters at the Ambassador Bridge.  It's almost as though Wonder boy and his regime wanted the protesters to stay there in Ottawa, so that they could use it for political purposes.

and why couldn't the police bust the 3-week occupation of downtown Ottawa? Geezaz, as one of the organizers said in his testimony, "it was only horns"... oh, and the waldo says not to forget the bouncy castles, the hot tubs, the street BBQs, etc..

the police: we could have stopped the Ottawa Convoy occupation
also the police: we didn't stop the occupation... cause, like... whatever!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 04, 2022, 12:48:24 pm
again, given how 3-peat Trudeau has so ravaged the governing opportunities for the CPC, we're forced to look back to HarperDays... cause that's where comparative samples exist! I note you're not even trying to substantiate that 50+ million taxpayer freeloading 3-day spendingpalooza that Harper took to see a ball game/Broadway show in New York City - indeed!
More whataboutism huh?  You're a good bootlicker.  I hope the Trudeau regime pays you well!

and why couldn't the police bust the 3-week occupation of downtown Ottawa? Geezaz, as one of the organizers said in his testimony, "it was only horns"... oh, and the waldo says not to forget the bouncy castles, the hot tubs, the street BBQs, etc..

the police: we could have stopped the Ottawa Convoy occupation
also the police: we didn't stop the occupation... cause, like... whatever!
Maybe they should have had the police that broke up the Ambassador Bridge blockade to take care of the Ottawa protest.  Instead Wonder boy chose to violate people's constitutional rights.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 04, 2022, 12:53:46 pm
It seems Tamar Lich was there, nut wandering around completely oblivious to her surroundings.

Lich is appearing before the Public Order Emergency Commission, which is reviewing the federal government's decision to invoke the never-before-used Emergencies Act to clear the crowds and vehicles that blocked parts of Ottawa's downtown for three weeks.

David Migicovsky pushed back on a claim Lich made Thursday under oath - that no one told her that they needed to leave after the Emergencies Act was invoked on Feb. 14.

"I remember when they came in, and we had the discussion and as it says, I became very upset," said Lich.

"I believe I said something to the effect of, 'I cannot believe that you're about to do this to your own people' … I was crying because of what they were proposing to do to Canadian citizens."
...
She testified Friday she was not aware of claims that crowds would sometimes swarm police and bylaw officers and was not aware of any death threats levelled against politicians until she began to watch the commission proceedings.
...
But on Friday, she said she couldn't hear the truck horns from her downtown hotel room.

"I didn't really notice it, the horns honking. And I was right downtown," she told Champ.[/quote]

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 04, 2022, 05:56:40 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/N8YgU2J.gif)  (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgpmiBvXwAAwIfZ?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 04, 2022, 06:19:51 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/N8YgU2J.gif)  (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgpmiBvXwAAwIfZ?format=jpg)
Now do the count of the use of the emergencies act!  Trudeau didn’t have a problem infringing on people’s rights then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on November 04, 2022, 07:08:54 pm
Didn't need to use the notwithstanding clause at all. Know why?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 04, 2022, 07:21:35 pm
Didn't need to use the notwithstanding clause at all. Know why?
Because he invoked the emergencies act, which allowed him to infringe on people’s rights end freedoms.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 04, 2022, 08:55:40 pm
Because he invoked the emergencies act, which allowed him to infringe on people’s rights end freedoms.

Just like Ford and the Notwithstanding Clause.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 04, 2022, 09:01:09 pm
Just like Ford and the Notwithstanding Clause.
And Trudeau proroguing parliament in 2020.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 04, 2022, 10:43:27 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/N8YgU2J.gif)

Hey Trudeau, now do this when Quebec uses the clause.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 05, 2022, 12:14:19 am
Hey Trudeau, now do this when Quebec uses the clause.

Nipples - you should educate yourself! PM Trudeau has been most consistent in his opposition to use of the notwithstanding clause... including the most recent Quebec use in regards 'Bill 21', the Quebec law that prohibits public sector workers considered to be in positions of authority, including police, judges and teachers, from displaying or wearing religious symbols while at work. The PM Justin Trudeau opposition is in kind to that stated by PM Pierre Trudeau who enacted the Charter (that included the notwithstanding clause as forced by Provincial Premiers):
Quote
During negotiations with premiers to patriate Canada's Constitution with a charter of rights in 1982, Trudeau's father, former prime minister Pierre Trudeau, reluctantly agreed to provincial demands for a notwithstanding clause. His calculation, his son said, was that it was better to have a charter with the clause "than to not have a charter at all."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 05, 2022, 01:07:04 pm
Abacus Data... why... thank you! Thank you very much!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fgt46j9XEAA5V1A?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 08, 2022, 10:37:24 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63551134

So will we get to know who the 11 were, if they were successful in getting elected, what happened to the corrupted staffers, if anything and what actions are being taken. According to Global, Trudeau was briefed on this last January but didn't react until Global made it public the other day.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 09, 2022, 03:30:38 pm
Guess no one cares that the Chinese are infiltrating our government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 09, 2022, 03:36:15 pm
Guess no one cares that the Chinese are infiltrating our government.
Apparently everyone only cares if it’s Russia.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on November 09, 2022, 03:39:59 pm
Trudeau apparently cares, but you're still butthurt they said bad things about dear Putin?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on November 09, 2022, 03:47:01 pm
Guess no one cares that the Chinese are infiltrating our government.

Liberals are too tough on China those meanies.

This country is going to crap and being ruined by these corrupt soft pieces are garbage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 18, 2022, 11:22:28 am
(https://i.imgur.com/ejvoGIM.gif)

Mr. Poilievre has enjoyed dental care paid by taxpayers for nearly 20 years — but he doesn't believe your children deserve the same. It's callous and it's wrong. (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1582831038774284288/vid/720x720/38ITWuBv9z9k0up6.mp4?tag=14)

in spite of PeePee/CPC voting against Bill C-31, it received Royal Assent yesterday, Nov 17th! Per Minister of Health, Jean-Yves Duclos:

(https://i.imgur.com/WctgOcx.gif)

hey CPClapper Shady, why would your boy Poilievre and the CPC vote against the kids - think of the kids, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on November 18, 2022, 11:42:38 am
From my understanding, they wanted the government to find existing money within the current budget, instead of printing and borrowing more money.  But Justin doesn't care about justinflation.  This bill will actually make dental care more expensive for everyone.  Also, I'm with the Conservatives, as I don't think a family making $90,000 dollars should have their dental care subsidized when insurance is easily and cheaply available.  Just more vote buy, and this new entitlement will get extremely expensive in the coming years.  But Justin and his cronies don't care.  He enjoys playing Santa Claus. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 18, 2022, 12:44:52 pm
Also, I'm with the Conservatives, as I don't think a family making $90,000 dollars should have their dental care subsidized when insurance is easily and cheaply available.

its only the first stage/phase of the proposed, now legislated, dental plan... (the first stage of the Canada Dental Benefit — for children between the ages of two and 12 — is expected to provide dental care to 500,000 children at a cost of close to $1 billion. You reference the highest dollar eligibility of the 3-tiered graduated benefit groupings (children under 12 with family incomes of less than $70,000 a year; children in families with incomes between $70,000 and $79,000; families with incomes between $80,000 and $89,000)

(https://i.cbc.ca/1.5359046.1598912764!/cpImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/ndp-trudeau-20191114.jpg)

Quote from: lacking concern for the kids - CPC leader Pierre Poilievre
They've proposed legislation that prints more cash, borrows more money, and throws gasoline on the inflationary fire the prime minister created.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 21, 2022, 01:11:41 pm
re: Emergencies Act - as the inquiry continues this week:

CSIS Director David Vigneault testifies that he told PM Trudeau that invoking the Emergencies Act last winter was required.

Quote
Vigneault told the in-camera hearing that Trudeau asked him for his advice at the end of a Feb. 13 meeting of the Incident Response Group during which the Emergencies Act was discussed.

By that point, anti-COVID-19 mandate protests had gridlocked downtown Ottawa for weeks and had spread to border crossings.

"Vigneault explained that, based on both his understanding that the Emergencies Act definition of threat to the security of Canada was broader than the CSIS Act, as well as based on his opinion of everything he had seen to that point, he advised the Prime Minister of his belief that it was indeed required to invoke the act," said the summary.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2022, 06:44:43 pm
re: Emergencies Act:

Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino: testified that the head of the RCMP, Commissioner Brenda Lucki, shared with him sensitive police information the day before the government decided to invoke the Emergencies Act. She underlined, for me, that the situation in Coutts involved a hardened cell of individuals armed to the teeth with lethal firearms, who possessed a willingness to go down with the cause. Court records show the RCMP had undercover officers embedded with the protesters.

(https://globalnews.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/RCMP-seizure-Coutts.jpg)(https://i.cbc.ca/1.6354588.1646243451!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/16x9_780/carbert-olienick-morin-lysak.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 01, 2023, 04:59:36 pm
by the G&M Editorial Board, no less:

(https://i.imgur.com/4FrN42U.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 03, 2023, 11:42:57 pm
Here we go again.  Good vetting, again.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/opinion-more-needs-to-be-done-to-contain-gg-s-extravagance/ar-AA15UZyE?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=68c2034c313442e5b87222040e62bbd7
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 04, 2023, 12:46:34 pm
Ndp go capitalist: 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/holiday-travel-mess-shows-why-canadian-air-travel-industry-needs-competition-ndp-1.6217373
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 06, 2023, 03:10:09 pm
Stats Can - Dec 2022 - Labour Force Survey:

(https://i.imgur.com/D6HRlt9.gif)(https://i.imgur.com/haH68NP.gif)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 06, 2023, 03:24:00 pm
Stats Can - Dec 2022 - Labour Force Survey:

(https://i.imgur.com/D6HRlt9.gif)(https://i.imgur.com/haH68NP.gif)

Trudeau did this with all his policies. Because as we know,  the Prime Minister controls the Canadian and global economies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on January 06, 2023, 03:32:45 pm
Trudeau did this with all his policies. Because as we know,  the Prime Minister controls the Canadian and global economies.
Yes, the Prime Minister and the government are only responsible when bad things happen.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on January 06, 2023, 04:14:48 pm
Yes, the Prime Minister and the government are only responsible when bad things happen.

Yeah they caused COVID and the 2008 mortage meltdown in the US too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 06, 2023, 05:39:58 pm
Yes, the Prime Minister and the government are only responsible when bad things happen.

winner, winner - chicken dinner!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2023, 09:23:46 pm
The perils of quantitive easing and rising interest rates.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/boc-to-lose-billions-over-next-few-years-posing-communications-challenge-report-1.1869271
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2023, 05:32:11 pm
Ndp go capitalist: 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/holiday-travel-mess-shows-why-canadian-air-travel-industry-needs-competition-ndp-1.6217373
Budget balanced yet?  It’s been 9 years. Paying down debt yet?  It’s been 9 years. More credit card spending to be dealt with by a different government?  How does Turdeau spend so much money for such poor results?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2023, 05:33:53 pm
notwithstanding that days before Budget 2023 was even released, CPC leader Poilievre was giving notice he/CPC would not support it:

in surprise Breaking News, today, after Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland tabled Budget 2023, Poilievre gave notice that Conservatives would not support it. In even more of a surprise Breaking News move, NDP leader Jugmeet Singh stated the NDP will support the federal government and vote for Budget 2023!

(https://i.imgur.com/iQEgpYb.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2023, 06:03:42 pm
More inflationary spending, higher taxation and higher costs for fuel, food, and housing.

https://youtu.be/z5OFnZ3cjiE
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 28, 2023, 06:36:44 pm
Deficit increased by  33% over what was forecast last fall. How can anyone take this stuff seriously?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2023, 06:44:32 pm
Deficit increased by  33% over what was forecast last fall. How can anyone take this stuff seriously?
Good question.  That’s with no covid spending anymore, and the government getting extra tax revenues based on higher prices due to inflation, AND he’s STILL borrowing money.  He’s STILL deficit spending HIGHER than what was forecasted.  He’s a complete clown.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2023, 07:30:49 pm
Deficit increased by  33% over what was forecast last fall. How can anyone take this stuff seriously?

Gotta pay for the dental care etc that the NDP demand in order to vote for the budget.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2023, 07:49:32 pm
Deficit increased by  33% over what was forecast last fall. How can anyone take this stuff seriously?

please check the waldo's crack research team:
=> last fall forecast @$30.6 Billion;
=> Budget 2023 projects the deficit will be $40.1 billion in 2023-24
=> 26.8% difference

but wait now waldo... canya provide some/more perspective? Well sure:

Quote
per the Fiscal Year 2021-2022 annual fiscal report: the {Liberal} federal government posted a budgetary deficit of $90.2 billion for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2022, compared to a deficit of $327.7 billion in the previous fiscal year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 28, 2023, 08:57:04 pm
please check the waldo's crack research team:
=> last fall forecast @$30.6 Billion;
=> Budget 2023 projects the deficit will be $40.1 billion in 2023-24
=> 26.8% difference

but wait now waldo... canya provide some/more perspective? Well sure:

Uh $40.1 is 34% more than $30.6.  Fire your research team.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2023, 09:05:11 pm
please check the waldo's crack research team:
=> last fall forecast @$30.6 Billion;
=> Budget 2023 projects the deficit will be $40.1 billion in 2023-24
=> 26.8% difference

but wait now waldo... canya provide some/more perspective? Well sure:
Hey waldo, it’s year 9, has he balanced even one budget?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 28, 2023, 09:17:44 pm
The undisputed champion of debt.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2023, 10:51:30 pm
Uh $40.1 is 34% more than $30.6.  Fire your research team.

Nipples comprehension problem: read it again and you'll read '% difference'. But hey, if you're after '% increase', that would be 31%... not 34%. Carry on, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 28, 2023, 11:03:57 pm
spending when debt servicing is near its all time low... on prudent needs - yes?

your chance Shady! What targeted spending would you accept/parrot... what are your {parroted} targeted spending reductions? C'mon man - step-up and showcase your econChops, hey - name them!

still waiting Shady - still waiting! LOL!

don't worry Shady - they've got this! Hey now waldo, how low can debt servicing go?

(https://i.imgur.com/KorIAgM.jpg)

c'mon Shady, do you have an update for debt-servicing costs?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 29, 2023, 10:13:18 am
It is 31% but if they are going to be that far out in six months, why should we take anything else about this deficit forecast seriously. Trudeau will not balance a budget if he is PM for another 20 years, it just isn't in his DNA.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 29, 2023, 10:55:49 am
still waiting Shady - still waiting! LOL!

c'mon Shady, do you have an update for debt-servicing costs?
LOL, you should post real numbers instead of highly inaccurate projections.  Question, do you think he'll ever balance a budget?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2023, 11:19:16 am
Hey waldo, it’s year 9, has he balanced even one budget?

Question, do you think he'll ever balance a budget?

when your favoured Conservative party last governed, it's first year saw a "balance"... but Harper inherited a budget surplus of $13.8 billion... but that proceeded to turn into seven fiscal deficits in a row exacerbated by tax cuts on the order of billions of dollars - 7 deficits in a row!

hey Shady, as you parrot away, what tax cuts do PeePee/CPC/YOU favour; more pointedly what spending cuts do PeePee/CPC/YOU favour?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 29, 2023, 12:21:10 pm
when your favoured Conservative party last governed, it's first year saw a "balance"... but Harper inherited a budget surplus of $13.8 billion... but that proceeded to turn into seven fiscal deficits in a row exacerbated by tax cuts on the order of billions of dollars - 7 deficits in a row!
Yeah, there was this thing called the global financial crisis in 2008 that sent the world into a deep recession.  A recession caused by nothing the Conservative government did.  Then Turdeau was handed a budget almost in balanced, and turned it into deficit spending since taking office.  What's his excuse for 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019?  What's his excuse now, that covid spending has come to an end, and the economy is as great as you suggest it is?  And he's getting increased revenue from record high inflation?  What's his excuse buddy waldo, hey!?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 29, 2023, 12:27:33 pm
Yeah, there was this thing called the global financial crisis in 2008 that sent the world into a deep recession.  A recession caused by nothing the Conservative government did.

the ever-go-to of Harper having to deal with "theGreatDepression" is a CPC/Conservative canard... in reality, Canada entered it later, its impact was milder and its duration shorter (just 7 months) than that of any other G7 nation.

waldo linkee dump:

=> 6 charts show Stephen Harper has the worst economic record of any Prime Minister since World War II (https://pressprogress.ca/6_charts_show_stephen_harper_has_the_worst_economic_record_of_any_prime_minister_since_world_war_ii/)

=> Harper’s economic record the worst in Canada’s postwar history (https://spon.ca/harpers-economic-record-the-worst-in-canadas-postwar-history/2015/09/17/)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 30, 2023, 12:15:54 pm
In 22/23, the federal government will be spending 10 billion more (40%) to service debt than it spends on defence. How long before it is double.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on March 30, 2023, 12:31:01 pm

From progress.ca huh???!!! 😂😂😂
I’m sure they’re non-partisan! 🤣
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 30, 2023, 12:38:06 pm
If half our debt servicing costs were added to defence spending we would be over 2% GDP.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on March 30, 2023, 02:18:29 pm
In 22/23, the federal government will be spending 10 billion more (40%) to service debt than it spends on defence. How long before it is double.

Hey remember before the pandemic when they were talking about the low debt-servicing costs due to low interest rates at the time and we were saying the interest rates could rise at any time and they ignored us?

Remember when we were telling them that its better to keep deficits low during better economic times in order to have more debt room available to pay for deficits during the bad times?

Everything we said has come to pass.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 30, 2023, 03:00:30 pm
Hey remember before the pandemic when they were talking about the low debt-servicing costs due to low interest rates at the time and we were saying the interest rates could rise at any time and they ignored us?

Remember when we were telling them that its better to keep deficits low during better economic times in order to have more debt room available to pay for deficits during the bad times?

Everything we said has come to pass.

Of course. No great wisdom there, it isn't like we haven't seen it before.

Chretien and Martin were just know nothings.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on May 31, 2023, 06:00:30 pm
since last fall, CPC/Poilievre's attacks against the federal government's safe(r) drug supply policy was purposeful misinformation about drug toxicity and the opioid overdose crisis (as particularly focused on British Columbia). As a testament to that misinformation, PeePee released a video that used a homeless encampment in Vancouver as a backdrop... that attributed community addictions to a “failed experiment”; to the, "deliberate policy by woke Liberal and NDP governments to provide taxpayer funded drugs, to flood our streets with easy access to these poisons".

Poilievre's "solution" to combat the overdose crisis is to tighten up borders, arrest drug dealers, and force people into recovery... you know, essentially what had been the status-quo!

PeePee sponsored an 'Opposition Motion' that took aim at the federal government's harm-reduction policies for drug users, focusing mainly on, "its decision to fund the supply of pharmaceutical alternatives as a replacement for certain illicit drugs to combat the opioid crisis" - the so-called safe(r) supply! In a too-bad, so-sad outcome, Poilievre's motion was just defeated - 209 to 113:

(https://i.imgur.com/lNw3cSH.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on May 31, 2023, 06:22:50 pm
So unimaginative, so limited.

Go away Pierre, go away.

I would be fine with another Liberal NDP Coalition...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on May 31, 2023, 06:39:58 pm
So unimaginative, so limited.

Go away Pierre, go away.

I would be fine with another Liberal NDP Coalition...

Trudeau stepping down would probably go a long way to making that happen.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on May 31, 2023, 07:15:39 pm
So unimaginative, so limited.

Go away Pierre, go away.

I would be fine with another Liberal NDP Coalition...
The only thing that needs to go away is failed work policies like “safe drug sites”.  Imagine crapping on someone for wanting actual substance abuse rehabilitation.  Another coalition?  That means a continued broken Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on May 31, 2023, 07:16:38 pm
Speaking of government day to day, how many billions are we wasting every day just paying the interest in Turdeau’s new debt?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on May 31, 2023, 07:32:30 pm
The only thing that needs to go away is failed work policies like “safe drug sites”.  Imagine crapping on someone for wanting actual substance abuse rehabilitation.  Another coalition?  That means a continued broken Canada.
It wasn't long ago that your drug policy was continued marijuana criminalization. Your arguments are looking pretty stupid now, eh?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on May 31, 2023, 08:34:37 pm
Funny how conservatives like to talk about drug rehabilitation but whenever they have chance to implement such things they just…don’t.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 06, 2023, 11:50:11 am
with Poilievre threatening to do everything he can to stop the 2023 Liberal Budget... the budget that delivers crucial investments and relief to support Canadians and make life more affordable!

video: of course PeePee would be against supporting Canadians! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1665777886438084609/pu/vid/720x720/Mo4vTPNo-XxErXOh.mp4?tag=12)

(https://i.imgur.com/tMt6Uel.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 06, 2023, 01:06:13 pm
the latest sleaze from Poilievre has him raising innuendo related to a distant past BS rumour about PM Trudeau leaving his teaching job... something PeePee refuses to speak to outside the protections of the HOC's parliamentary privilege - such a phacking coward is Poilievre!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fx0l3IvXoAApY59?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 08, 2023, 06:41:04 pm
last evening's Poilievre filibuster against the budget implementation bill... fizzles out! Geezaz waldo, PeePee didn't even make it to midnight! But it gave Poilievre the excuse as to why he didn't attend the 'Pride Flag' raising on Parliament Hill... stating he missed the flag raising because he had been up late working the night before!

(https://i.imgur.com/xzW6Gtp.gif)

by a vote of 177 to 146, Bill C-47, the Budget Implementation Act, 2023, No 1 passed the final stage in the House with support from the Liberals and NDP... Conservatives and Bloc Quebecois voted against the bill - now off to the Senate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 08, 2023, 07:20:37 pm
The carbon tax is nonsensical virtue signalling, designed to fix nothing.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 08, 2023, 07:21:25 pm
last evening's Poilievre filibuster against the budget implementation bill... fizzles out! Geezaz waldo, PeePee didn't even make it to midnight! But it gave Poilievre the excuse as to why he didn't attend the 'Pride Flag' raising on Parliament Hill... stating he missed the flag raising because he had been up late working the night before!

(https://i.imgur.com/xzW6Gtp.gif)

by a vote of 177 to 146, Bill C-47, the Budget Implementation Act, 2023, No 1 passed the final stage in the House with support from the Liberals and NDP... Conservatives and Bloc Quebecois voted against the bill - now off to the Senate.
Hey look, it’s the wicked witch of the east!  One of the architects of the housing crisis and the breaking of Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2023, 03:08:45 am
Hey look, it’s the wicked witch of the east!  One of the architects of the housing crisis and the breaking of Canada.

like I said, your boy PeePee's "mighty" filibuster against the budget bill fizzled out! As he didn't... as you couldn't, neither of you losers had a thing to say about the actual budget bill, C-47! Such phackers the both of you are!

(https://i.imgur.com/tMt6Uel.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2023, 10:34:13 am
like I said, your boy PeePee's "mighty" filibuster against the budget bill fizzled out! As he didn't... as you couldn't, neither of you losers had a thing to say about the actual budget bill, C-47! Such phackers the both of you are!

(https://i.imgur.com/tMt6Uel.gif)

And over 40 billion in new debt to pay for it. Why don't you include that?

I could buy all sorts of thing I can't afford if I conducted my personal finances the same way.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 10:56:29 am
like I said, your boy PeePee's "mighty" filibuster against the budget bill fizzled out! As he didn't... as you couldn't, neither of you losers had a thing to say about the actual budget bill, C-47! Such phackers the both of you are!

(https://i.imgur.com/tMt6Uel.gif)
LOL, I love that you give them credit for grocery rebates, when they’re the reason why groceries, and everything else cost much more.  Too f**king funny! 😂🤣
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 10:58:54 am
And over 40 billion in new debt to pay for it. Why don't you include that?

I could buy all sorts of thing I can't afford if I conducted my personal finances the same way.
There’s a great video of Trudeau in 2020 being asked by a reporter how much the new debit is going to cost to finance, and responds saying that interest rates are at an all time low.  3 years later and 19 times higher, Trudeau looks like an even bigger buffoon.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 11:08:05 am
And over 40 billion in new debt to pay for it. Why don't you include that?

I could buy all sorts of thing I can't afford if I conducted my personal finances the same way.

Do you also have the power to issue your own currency?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 11:21:14 am
Do you also have the power to issue your own currency?
That’s a great strategy if you want to devalue your currency.  JFC.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on June 09, 2023, 11:22:40 am
 And if you're a manufacturer, that's exactly what you want.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 11:26:45 am
And if you're a manufacturer, that's exactly what you want.
LOL! 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on June 09, 2023, 11:27:49 am
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 11:33:09 am
You really don't have a clue, do you?
You’re the king of projection!  You and your butt buddy are advocating for massive debt paid for by printing more currency, and I’m clueless???  😂😂😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 11:46:38 am
You guys would fit in perfectly in Zimbabwe and Venezuela.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 09, 2023, 11:47:29 am
Do you also have the power to issue your own currency?

Printing money creates inflation.   Super great insight there Black Dog.  MMT'ers are mentally retarded communists, and communists are already mentally retarded.  So double-retarded.

You know what also creates inflation? Injecting 40 billion dollars into the economy.  So that makes the Liberals triple-retarded.  Bang-up job to our bird-lips finance minister, a Rhodes scholar in Slavic studies, making her very qualified to run the finances of an entire country. Guess she didn't learn enough about the USSR's horrendous economic stagnation and collapse 6somehow.  So, quadruple retarded.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 11:48:46 am
You’re the king of projection!  You and your butt buddy are advocating for massive debt paid for by printing more currency, and I’m clueless???  😂😂😂

As usual you're too stupid to understand the simplest of points, which was that comparing household debt to sovereign debt is incredibly facile.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2023, 11:50:45 am
And over 40 billion in new debt to pay for it. Why don't you include that?

the $90.2-billion deficit recorded in 2021–22 was $23.6 billion lower than the $113.8-billion deficit projected in Budget 2022. Comparatively... would you say $40 billion is an... improvement... for anyone oh so fixated on debt/deficit - yes? And don't forget the forecasts for coming years, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 11:50:58 am
Printing money creates inflation.   Super great insight there Black Dog.  MMT'ers are mentally retarded communists, and communists are already mentally retarded.  So double-retarded.

You know what also creates inflation? Injecting 40 billion dollars into the economy.  So that makes the Liberals triple-retarded.  Bang-up job to our bird-lips finance minister, a Rhodes scholar in Slavic studies, making her very qualified to run the finances of an entire country. Guess she didn't learn enough about the USSR's horrendous economic stagnation and collapse 6somehow.  So, quadruple retarded.

As usual you're too stupid to understand the simplest of points, which was that comparing household debt to sovereign debt is incredibly facile.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 09, 2023, 11:51:56 am
That’s a great strategy if you want to devalue your currency.  JFC.

Winner winner, chicken dinner. MMT'ers can't afford food, let's all get thinner.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 09, 2023, 11:55:49 am

As usual you're too stupid to understand the simplest of points, which was that comparing household debt to sovereign debt is incredibly facile.

You can't even figure out how to use the quote function and you're calling me stupid?

Yeah Canada can't go bankrupt, a banana will just cost 4 grand.  Great point wow you really got me there damn, tail between the legs gotta go see ya later WOMP WOMP.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 12:01:35 pm
You can't even figure out how to use the quote function and you're calling me stupid?

Yeah Canada can't go bankrupt, a banana will just cost 4 grand.  Great point wow you really got me there damn, tail between the legs gotta go see ya later WOMP WOMP.
What’s sad is that we have a federal with the same mindset.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 12:05:27 pm
You can't even figure out how to use the quote function and you're calling me stupid?

Yeah Canada can't go bankrupt, a banana will just cost 4 grand.  Great point wow you really got me there damn, tail between the legs gotta go see ya later WOMP WOMP.

You're too stupid to see I was quoting myself from a previous reply to your fellow retard. lol
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 12:21:13 pm
You're too stupid to see I was quoting myself from a previous reply to your fellow retard. lol
Yes, we’re the retards for not advocating for massive debt funded by printing money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 01:12:22 pm
Yes, we’re the retards for not advocating for massive debt funded by printing money.

You're a retard for a million reasons, including seeing "advocating for massive debt funded by printing money" in a single post about the difference between sovereign debt and household debt, take a lap dipshit, then go drown yourself in the river.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 09, 2023, 01:13:15 pm
You're too stupid to see I was quoting myself from a previous reply to your fellow retard. lol

Sorry I try not to read your posts since I don't actually want to fill my mind with stupidity.

You're the one who wants to steal tons of money from the rich and give everyone tons of free money so they don't even beg to work.  That will help inflation!  HAHAHA.   You're too stupid to realize every communist country over the past hundred years has done this and all the wealthy people and those with potential to make money leave the country, so these countries either go broke or have to ban everyone from being able to leave the country therefore enslaving them inside their own country.  Go ask all the Cubans in Florida you stupid Stalinist.  Go ask all the Canadian doctors and nurses who fled to the US over the last 3 decades to make more money and left us with a huge pile of elderly baby boomers with no GP after paying into the system their entire lives and are now dying in waiting rooms and hallways.  But I'm sure you want all the boomers to die so you can enact your CHAZ/CHOP schemes.  Go ask the Venezuelan migrants about the inflation in their country.

And yeah let's also build a ton of free houses for refugees so their sons won't murder everyone and sell our children narcotics.  That should help the housing crisis LOL.   You nutjobs are the biggest bunch of naive retards that have ever lived.  Go read a history book about how all your totally unoriginal ideas have already been tried and been a disaster and then STFU.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 01:38:44 pm
Sorry I try not to read your posts since I don't actually want to fill my mind with stupidity.

We all know that's not true and it would be embarrassing for you to say if you were capable of embarrassment.

Quote
You're the one who wants to steal tons of money from the rich and give everyone tons of free money so they don't even beg to work.  That will help inflation!  HAHAHA.   You're too stupid to realize every communist country over the past hundred years has done this and all the wealthy people and those with potential to make money leave the country, so these countries either go broke or have to ban everyone from being able to leave the country therefore enslaving them inside their own country.  Go ask all the Cubans in Florida you stupid Stalinist.  Go ask all the Canadian doctors and nurses who fled to the US over the last 3 decades to make more money and left us with a huge pile of elderly baby boomers with no GP after paying into the system their entire lives and are now dying in waiting rooms and hallways.  But I'm sure you want all the boomers to die so you can enact your CHAZ/CHOP schemes.  Go ask the Venezuelan migrants about the inflation in their country.

And yeah let's also build a ton of free houses for refugees so their sons won't murder everyone and sell our children narcotics.  That should help the housing crisis LOL.   You nutjobs are the biggest bunch of naive retards that have ever lived.  Go read a history book about how all your totally unoriginal ideas have already been tried and been a disaster and then STFU.

LOL you know it's Friday when this fuckin boomer goof starts incoherently drunk-posting about commies. Drink some coffee and sleep it off you old pisshead.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 09, 2023, 03:25:37 pm
We all know that's not true and it would be embarrassing for you to say if you were capable of embarrassment.

Hey we all slow down on the highway to look at a car accident.  Except you I guess, on your bike because scared of driving.

Quote
LOL you know it's Friday when this fuckin boomer goof starts incoherently drunk-posting about commies. Drink some coffee and sleep it off you old pisshead.

I'm clearly several decades younger than you think I am, I just sound old because I'm extremely wise beyond my years.

I also don't drink booze or do anything retarded really except post on this terrible forum.

Anyways, some nice Sunday reading for you this weekend:

https://www.amazon.ca/Innocents-China-Pierre-Elliot-Trudeau-ebook/dp/B0070YYQ04/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?crid=JSCVZA0MXIMO&keywords=pierre+trudeau+red+china&qid=1686340989&sprefix=pierre+trudeau+red+chin%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-2-fkmr0

https://www.amazon.ca/Barbarian-Lost-Travels-New-China/dp/1443441406/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=alexandre+trudeau&qid=1686341054&sprefix=alexandre+tru%2Caps%2C118&sr=8-2

https://nosnowinmoscow.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/the-last-days-of-the-patriarch-by-alexandre-trudeau/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 03:45:25 pm
Hey we all slow down on the highway to look at a car accident.  Except you I guess, on your bike because scared of driving.

I'm clearly several decades younger than you think I am, I just sound old because I'm extremely wise beyond my years.

I also don't drink booze or do anything retarded really except post on this terrible forum.

Anyways, some nice Sunday reading for you this weekend:

https://www.amazon.ca/Innocents-China-Pierre-Elliot-Trudeau-ebook/dp/B0070YYQ04/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?crid=JSCVZA0MXIMO&keywords=pierre+trudeau+red+china&qid=1686340989&sprefix=pierre+trudeau+red+chin%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-2-fkmr0

https://www.amazon.ca/Barbarian-Lost-Travels-New-China/dp/1443441406/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=alexandre+trudeau&qid=1686341054&sprefix=alexandre+tru%2Caps%2C118&sr=8-2

https://nosnowinmoscow.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/the-last-days-of-the-patriarch-by-alexandre-trudeau/
Woke Dog is so woke that even kimmy laughs about insane he is.  She’s probably “old” as well.  Anybody that disagrees with him is “old”.  He’s like a child.  A man baby.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on June 09, 2023, 03:56:59 pm
You know everyone thinks you're retarded, right?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 04:09:44 pm
Hey we all slow down on the highway to look at a car accident.  Except you I guess, on your bike because scared of driving.

I'm clearly several decades younger than you think I am, I just sound old because I'm extremely wise beyond my years.

Sure just like you're Black too, right? Anyway, it doesn't matter how old you are if you have the mindset and soul of a boomer.
Quote
I also don't drink booze or do anything retarded really except post on this terrible forum.

It's just wild how you'll have these stretches of normal posting and then go off the rails late on Friday afternoons. Do you just shove the stupid down during the week and let it fly when the weekend hits?

Quote
Anyways, some nice Sunday reading for you this weekend:

https://www.amazon.ca/Innocents-China-Pierre-Elliot-Trudeau-ebook/dp/B0070YYQ04/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?crid=JSCVZA0MXIMO&keywords=pierre+trudeau+red+china&qid=1686340989&sprefix=pierre+trudeau+red+chin%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-2-fkmr0

https://www.amazon.ca/Barbarian-Lost-Travels-New-China/dp/1443441406/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=alexandre+trudeau&qid=1686341054&sprefix=alexandre+tru%2Caps%2C118&sr=8-2

https://nosnowinmoscow.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/the-last-days-of-the-patriarch-by-alexandre-trudeau/

Nah.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 04:11:55 pm
Woke Dog is so woke that even kimmy laughs about insane he is.  She’s probably “old” as well.  Anybody that disagrees with him is “old”.  He’s like a child.  A man baby.

Post some more shitty Facebook-tier memes, why don't you fuckstick. Do you ever stop and think what a completely sub replacement-level human you are?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 09, 2023, 05:13:14 pm
Post some more shitty Facebook-tier memes, why don't you fuckstick. Do you ever stop and think what a completely sub replacement-level human you are?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on June 09, 2023, 05:48:25 pm
(Attachment Link)

"Capitalism is when you own things"- a stupid c*nt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 09, 2023, 06:47:14 pm
Do you also have the power to issue your own currency?

Exactly, just print more money and inject it into the economy causing more inflation, devaluing the money you just printed making everyone poorer.

Debt servicing costs skyrocket, just print more money to pay the interest. Soon we are Argentina.

Trudeunomics in action.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 09, 2023, 11:59:24 pm
re-quoting the post you must have missed

And over 40 billion in new debt to pay for it. Why don't you include that?

the $90.2-billion deficit recorded in 2021–22 was $23.6 billion lower than the $113.8-billion deficit projected in Budget 2022. Comparatively... would you say $40 billion is an... improvement... for anyone oh so fixated on debt/deficit - yes? And don't forget the forecasts for coming years, hey!

Debt servicing costs skyrocket, just print more money to pay the interest.

Trudeunomics in action.

wilber, don't worry - be happy! And about those forecasts!

(https://i.imgur.com/IBtDuQ4.gif)

here let me ask again; perhaps you'll actually answer this time: what spending cuts are you wanting - who/what is on your 'cut list'?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2023, 12:27:17 pm
Reducing debt requires balanced budgets and paying debt down. That will never happen under Trudeau.

As existing debt matures and has to be replaced with new debt at higher higher rates, balancing budgets will become even more difficult as more tax revenue is required to service existing debt, never mind future deficits.

Quote
When interest rates spiked in 2022, debt interest costs began rising rapidly again. According to the spring federal budget, debt interest will cost $34.5 billion in 2022/23 and reach $43.9 billion in 2023/24. To put this in context, the cost to service federal debt is on track to more than double over a three-year period from 2020/21 to 2023/24.

Consequently, Ottawa will spend almost as much on debt interest this year as what it spends on the Canada Health Transfer ($49.4 billion), which is money the federal government sends to provinces to help fund health-care services. The government also spends more on interest costs than it spends on the Canada Child Benefit and national daycare programs combined ($31.2 billion).

Cuts? What about the 43 billion in new spending being paid for by new debt?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 10, 2023, 01:07:06 pm
Reducing debt requires balanced budgets and paying debt down. That will never happen under Trudeau.

c'mon wilber - as you continue to ignore forecasts; here, again:

(https://i.imgur.com/IBtDuQ4.gif)

As existing debt matures and has to be replaced with new debt at higher higher rates, balancing budgets will become even more difficult as more tax revenue is required to service existing debt, never mind future deficits.

Cuts? What about the 43 billion in new spending being paid for by new debt?

again: anyone looking for signs of an incipient fiscal crisis... that would be you wilber!

what say you economist Kevin Milligan? - "for anyone looking for signs of an incipient fiscal crisis....uh, no." --- "if debt service / GDP does settle in at around 1.6% by 2024, that would still be lower than at an point between 1918 and 2011"

(https://i.imgur.com/pOsP1E3.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 10, 2023, 02:12:44 pm
Exactly, just print more money and inject it into the economy causing more inflation, devaluing the money you just printed making everyone poorer.

Debt servicing costs skyrocket, just print more money to pay the interest. Soon we are Argentina.

Trudeunomics in action.

"Money grows on trees" - dumb Marxist MMT'ers
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 10, 2023, 02:13:49 pm
How is debt going to come down if the government keeps running deficits?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 10, 2023, 02:16:41 pm
c'mon wilber - as you continue to ignore forecasts; here, again:

(https://i.imgur.com/IBtDuQ4.gif)

again: anyone looking for signs of an incipient fiscal crisis... that would be you wilber!

Debt can't go down unless you go into surplus and pay it down.  Trudeau gov had a good economy before covid and ran deficits.  They will never reduce the debt by 1 cent because they just want to buy votes and create their utopia.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on June 10, 2023, 02:23:11 pm
The Cons were no different....   promising tax breaks and no way to pay for them.  They were absolutely no different than the Libs this election.  Plus, they were even worse under Harper.

Harper gov reduced the GST and then the 2008 recession hit.   You're supposed to run deficits when the economy slows down to sinister growth and everyone in the world did it.

The Trudeau gov ran deficits every year since being in power even before covid when the economy was strong.   They're idiots.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 15, 2023, 02:08:32 pm
Harper Supreme Court appointment resigns - Conservative leaning Justice, Russell Brown
(https://cdn-res.keymedia.com/cms/images/ca/120/0379_638138215126424740.png)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FyqmrGiWYAEAc29?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2023, 07:15:12 pm
good on ya PeePee! Good on ya!

Quote
Canadian Press/Sean Kilpatrick: Conservatives vote in favour of bill enshrining long-term funding for child-care system. Conservative members of Parliament joined other parties to vote in favour of a bill that enshrines into law the Liberal federal government's long-term commitment to the Canada-wide early learning and child-care system.

The Liberals introduced the bill late last year as part of an effort to ensure that future federal governments would continue providing child-care funding to provinces.

The bill, which passed unanimously, also creates a national advisory council on early learning and child care.

The Liberal government earmarked $30 billion over five years in the 2021 budget to set up a long-promised national child-care program.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2023, 11:16:51 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/vJ0qj7H.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 20, 2023, 11:24:55 pm
Quote from:  Fred DeLorey, former national campaign manager for the Conservative Party
Red Flags Rising: Conservatives Lose Ground in Three of Four By-Elections --- Warning signs are flashing for the Conservative Party after recent by-elections, as Pierre Poilievre's increasing negatives and strategic missteps raise concerns for our party's future.

Opposition parties traditionally gain ground in by-elections, an opportunity for Canadians to protest without unseating the status quo. With two ridings already being strongholds and a previously held suburban riding, we should have claimed decisive victory in three out of four battles. Instead, we barely eked out a win in one of our safest seats east of Manitoba, secured only two in total, and watched our support wane in three constituencies.

The Poilievre Problem

Deeply unsettling are the escalating negatives for Pierre Poilievre. His divisive approach, which used to serve as a battle cry for our base, increasingly feels like a millstone, hampering our progress, pushing away potential supporters and aggravating our party's identity crisis.

His negatives with women are at an unprecedented level, a phenomenon I cannot recall ever witnessing before with a candidate for prime minister being so intensely disliked by one gender. This level of disparity could have dire consequences for our future prospects.

#BringItHome hey PeePee!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 22, 2023, 12:08:51 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Ohn2hrL.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on June 22, 2023, 03:47:23 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Ohn2hrL.gif)
LOL, bills that will make life more affordable!  OMFG, pure gaslighting at this point!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 22, 2023, 11:56:13 pm
LOL, bills that will make life more affordable!  OMFG, pure gaslighting at this point!

how blowhardy of you, hey Shady!

wait now! What about Bill C-22; a bill to implement a new Canada Disability Benefit... that proposes to create a federal income supplement for low-income, working-age people with disabilities - modelled after the Guaranteed Income Supplement.

stoogeShady!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 23, 2023, 11:12:52 am
Quote from:  Fred DeLorey, former national campaign manager for the Conservative Party
Red Flags Rising: Conservatives Lose Ground in Three of Four By-Elections --- Warning signs are flashing for the Conservative Party after recent by-elections, as Pierre Poilievre's increasing negatives and strategic missteps raise concerns for our party's future.

Opposition parties traditionally gain ground in by-elections, an opportunity for Canadians to protest without unseating the status quo. With two ridings already being strongholds and a previously held suburban riding, we should have claimed decisive victory in three out of four battles. Instead, we barely eked out a win in one of our safest seats east of Manitoba, secured only two in total, and watched our support wane in three constituencies.

The Poilievre Problem

Deeply unsettling are the escalating negatives for Pierre Poilievre. His divisive approach, which used to serve as a battle cry for our base, increasingly feels like a millstone, hampering our progress, pushing away potential supporters and aggravating our party's identity crisis.

His negatives with women are at an unprecedented level, a phenomenon I cannot recall ever witnessing before with a candidate for prime minister being so intensely disliked by one gender. This level of disparity could have dire consequences for our future prospects.

#BringItHome hey PeePee!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzOcQMoXwAM1gPE?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 29, 2023, 09:55:18 am
receiving Royal Assent, Bill C-18 - the Online News Act that requires big tech giants (like Google & Meta) to compensate media outlets... to pay media outlets for news content that's shared and repurposed on their platforms.

timing is everything: continuing its year-over-year "crash dive", the failing Postmedia chain is in a 'life-saving' attempt seeking a merger with Nordstar (the owner of Metroland Media Group and the Toronto Star).

shockingly, PeePee has a different take - seeing censorship while wanting to, "Bring Home free speech"... #BringItHomePoilievre

(https://i.imgur.com/wrSZdzx.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on July 03, 2023, 11:33:40 am
They decided to tax Google and Facebook for providing links to Canadian news sites, and now Pablo is "surprised" that Facebook and Google have responded by no longer linking to Canadian news sites.

I have a hunch that a lot of things surprise Pablo.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 03, 2023, 11:42:07 am
They decided to tax Google and Facebook for providing links to Canadian news sites, and now Pablo is "surprised" that Facebook and Google have responded by no longer linking to Canadian news sites.

I have a hunch that a lot of things surprise Pablo.

oh really, hey! LOL! Why would you favour companies making mega profits off Canadian content they don't pay for... refuse to pay for - refuse to compensate content creators for? And lookee what happened in Australia:

Trudeau turning Canada into Cuba.

Google to remove news links in Canada in response to online news law
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/google-canada-online-news-1.6892879?fbclid=IwAR3SRjZeltIR82CBZDFVeoqBIBuHqP5pu-VGWsno6bCUKBKgeJNzd94v7PI_aem_AYVP6obuEkOW-3vyrkMfNZpJGSvjEKbvyOixU9OW92XIjH8CrFwdde8yGCfNnSIPhS0

stoogeShady says what? Into Cuba... methinks not... is that what happened to Australia when it introduced similar regulations, hey!

Reuters, Dec 2022: Australia says law making Facebook and Google pay for news has worked (https://www.reuters.com/technology/australia-says-law-making-facebook-google-pay-news-has-worked-2022-12-02/)

Quote
An Australian law giving the government power to make internet giants Facebook owner Meta Platforms (META.O) and Alphabet Inc's (GOOGL.O) Google negotiate content supply deals with media outlets has largely worked, a government report said.
.
Since the News Media Bargaining Code took effect, the tech firms had inked more than 30 deals with media outlets compensating them for content which generated clicks and advertising dollars, said the Treasury department report
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 03, 2023, 11:48:25 am
I have a hunch that a lot of things surprise Pablo.

(https://i.imgur.com/7oETOZW.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2023, 11:05:51 am
presser today: Liberal government & NDP / BQ opposition present united front in support of bill C-18 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/online-news-act-google-facebook-meta-1.6897186)

meanwhile, out-of-touch Poilievre/CPC voted against bill C-18... with PeePee vowing to, "repeal PM Trudeau's censorship law."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2023, 11:35:49 am
the waldo chooses to consolidate multiple thread posts... here:

since last fall, CPC/Poilievre's attacks against the federal government's safe(r) drug supply policy was purposeful misinformation about drug toxicity and the opioid overdose crisis (as particularly focused on British Columbia). As a testament to that misinformation, PeePee released a video that used a homeless encampment in Vancouver as a backdrop... that attributed community addictions to a “failed experiment”; to the, "deliberate policy by woke Liberal and NDP governments to provide taxpayer funded drugs, to flood our streets with easy access to these poisons".

Poilievre's "solution" to combat the overdose crisis is to tighten up borders, arrest drug dealers, and force people into recovery... you know, essentially what had been the status-quo!

PeePee sponsored an 'Opposition Motion' that took aim at the federal government's harm-reduction policies for drug users, focusing mainly on, "its decision to fund the supply of pharmaceutical alternatives as a replacement for certain illicit drugs to combat the opioid crisis" - the so-called safe(r) supply! In a too-bad, so-sad outcome, Poilievre's motion was just defeated - 209 to 113:

(https://i.imgur.com/lNw3cSH.png)

"Drugs" Unregulated Drug Toxicity killing more than homicides, suicides, natural disease combined after British Columbia decriminalization

fixed it for ya!

safer supply programs: enable people to access regulated drugs, meaning pharmaceutical grade substances of known composition and potency, to reducing reliance on unregulated, toxic illicit drugs and thus decreasing the risk of overdose and death

Quote
Provincial health officer, chief coroner condemn 'polarizing' rhetoric over B.C.'s safe drug supply (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/illicit-drug-crisis-rhetoric-1.6866198) --- 'Facts must take precedence over partisanship,' says Chief Coroner Lisa Lapointe

British Columbia health leaders will be reviewing the province's safe supply program and say the review will be based on data, not divisive politics.

The announcement came during a news conference Monday that included Provincial Health Officer Dr. Bonnie Henry, Chief Coroner Lisa Lapointe, Kelsey Louie of the First Nations Health Authority and Jennifer Charlesworth, the B.C. representative for children and youth.

The four presented a united front in support of a safe supply of drugs and their determination to debunk what they called polarizing rhetoric about who is accessing it and its impact on B.C. communities.

"Facts must take precedence over partisanship," said Lapointe.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2023, 11:39:49 am
Gary Mason, G&M: Politicians aren’t drug experts. They should stop pretending to be (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-politicians-arent-drug-experts-they-should-stop-pretending-to-be/?utm_medium=Referrer:+Social+Network+/+Media&utm_campaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links)

Quote
In the lead-up to Alberta’s May election, United Conservative Party Premier Danielle Smith eagerly pointed to the government’s drug policy approach as the right one to address the opioid scourge roiling the country.

The UCP approach focuses on treatment and recovery, while rejecting safer supply and decriminalization (the latter approach is favoured by B.C.).
.
But Ms. Smith’s government was also not revealing what was happening in Alberta this year, in the lead-up to the election. Where were the monthly overdose numbers for 2023? Why were they being held back? Now we may know the answer – because the numbers are shocking and a poor reflection on the UCP government’s drug strategy.

April was the deadliest month on record for opioid overdoses in Alberta, with 179 people dying of drug poisoning. It’s the highest monthly toll since the province began tracking overdose fatalities in 2016. Drug-related deaths are up 6.4 per cent through the first four months of 2023 versus the same period last year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2023, 11:48:01 am
the Poilievre/CPC & "Alberta Model (https://www.alberta.ca/alberta-recovery-oriented-system-of-care.aspx)" --- a recovery-oriented approach for addiction:

(https://i.imgur.com/p7ZFWNQ.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on July 05, 2023, 12:39:14 pm
the Poilievre/CPC & "Alberta Model (https://www.alberta.ca/alberta-recovery-oriented-system-of-care.aspx)" --- a recovery-oriented approach for addiction:

(https://i.imgur.com/p7ZFWNQ.gif)
It’s funny that when deaths were going down, their plan wasn’t responsible, but when deaths go up, it is! 😂
Regardless, the Liberal plan to keep millions addicted to drugs, destroying their lives isn’t a good approach either. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on July 05, 2023, 12:49:59 pm
It’s funny that when deaths were going down, their plan wasn’t responsible, but when deaths go up, it is! 😂

Same goes for you talking about B.C's decriminalization and harm reduction policies.

Quote
Regardless, the Liberal plan to keep millions addicted to drugs, destroying their lives isn’t a good approach either. 

What plan is that, specifically?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on July 05, 2023, 12:58:00 pm
The other thing worth pointing out the UCP's focus on treatment and recovery is they've only opened one of the 11 treatment centres promised. They don't care, they're probably celebrating these new death numbers over at the Sky Palace.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2023, 04:54:14 pm
Regardless, the Liberal plan to keep millions addicted to drugs, destroying their lives isn’t a good approach either.
What plan is that, specifically?

x2... what plan, hey Shady - what plan?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 05, 2023, 04:57:25 pm
the "Bringing it Home" Poilievre/CPC! --- treatment... to, "bring our loved ones home drug-free"

(https://i.imgur.com/JnVssc5.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on July 06, 2023, 09:37:21 am
the "Bringing it Home" Poilievre/CPC! --- treatment... to, "bring our loved ones home drug-free"

Could my views that fall well outside the scientific consensus just be wrong? No, they are being censored.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 06, 2023, 04:53:22 pm
receiving Royal Assent, Bill C-18 - the Online News Act that requires big tech giants (like Google & Meta) to compensate media outlets... to pay media outlets for news content that's shared and repurposed on their platforms.

shockingly, PeePee has a different take - seeing censorship while wanting to, "Bring Home free speech"... #BringItHomePoilievre

(https://i.imgur.com/wrSZdzx.gif)
presser today: Liberal government & NDP / BQ opposition present united front in support of bill C-18 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/online-news-act-google-facebook-meta-1.6897186)

meanwhile, out-of-touch Poilievre/CPC voted against bill C-18... with PeePee vowing to, "repeal PM Trudeau's censorship law."
(https://i.imgur.com/7oETOZW.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 06, 2023, 04:56:07 pm

hey waldo, what says the International Press? First in Europe and Australia, and now in Canada, these Google & Meta monopolists have threatened to pull news from their platforms and services in response to laws allowing news publishers to negotiate with them for fair compensation; publishers, many of which represent small local papers, who otherwise would not have any leverage against the dominant platforms

Global reaction to Google and Meta threat to take down news in Canada
(https://cdn1.creativecirclemedia.com/editorandpublisher/original/20230705-152538-Screen%20Shot%202023-07-05%20at%202.23.57%20PM.png.jpg)


The following is a joint statement from the Danish Media Association, Digital Content Next, the Estonian Association of Newsmedia Enterprises, the European Newspaper Publishers’ Association, the European Publishers Council, the Finnish Media Federation, the German Newspaper Publishers and Digital Publishers Association, the Inter American Press Association, the National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada, NDP Nieuwsmedia, the News/Media Alliance, News Media Canada, News Media Europe, News Media Finland, the Public Interest Publishers Alliance, the Swedish Media Publishers’ Association, the Swiss Media Association, and the UK News Media Association on Google and Meta’s threat to take down news in Canada after Canada’s parliament passed the Online News Act (C-18) in June:

(https://i.imgur.com/f7GDO1k.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 06, 2023, 05:09:26 pm
again, Poilievre/CPC voted against bill C-18... with PeePee brazenly referring to it as, 'PM Trudeau's censorship law'; one he states he will repeal in order to, "bring home free-speech"! #Pierre BringItHome Poilievre

article extract as written by Damian Collins OBE MP - a former UK government Tech Minister and chair of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport select committee. He also chaired the Joint Committee of the UK parliament in the Online Safety Bill.

Why the world backs Canada in its battle with the Big Tech bullies (https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2023/07/05/why-the-world-backs-canada-in-its-battle-with-the-big-tech-bullies/)

Quote
I have been watching with great interest – and dismay – at how Meta and Google have been wheeling their old bullying tactics against Canadians in their coordinated campaign against Bill C-18, otherwise known as the Online News Act. What’s more, is that this is not the first time Big Tech has pulled these stunts, as they are running a near identical playbook to the one they used in Australia to try and strong arm the Australian government over its News Media Bargaining Code (NMBC).
.
Why would two of the largest and most powerful companies to ever exist put so much effort, devote so many resources, to fight legislation that fairly compensates publishers for their content in a smaller market like Canada? The question becomes even more confounding once you factor in the current environment, whereby both Meta and Google have signed deals with multiple Canadian publishers.

In other words, the tech giants are lobbying against something they readily admit to already be engaged in. That’s because the crux of the matter for Big Tech is that they do not want to be subject to any transparency measures. Whether lobbying against Canada’s Online News Act, the European Union’s Digital Services Act, or the United Kingdom’s Online Safety Bill and recently tabled Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill, the underlying rationale for Big Tech’s strategy is the same: to remain as opaque and as unaccountable to the public as possible.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on July 06, 2023, 05:34:00 pm
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 13, 2023, 08:42:09 pm
Labour & Transport Ministers on the settlement of the B.C. port strike... the 13-day port strike appears to be over after the International Longshore and Warehouse Union Canada and the B.C. Maritime Employers Association agreed to a tentative four-year deal on Thursday morning:

(https://i.imgur.com/2tSsRpp.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 15, 2023, 10:31:22 am
yes, that's right PeePee! Federal mediation helped to end the B.C. ports strike. Reuters: Canadian port strike talks resume, supported by federal mediators (https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/canadian-port-strike-talks-resume-supported-by-federal-mediators-2023-07-09/)

highlighting that all too rare occasion that Poilievre is fact-checked on his lies/misinformation - journalist Stephen Maher stating Poilievre is routinely disingenuous blaming everything on PM Trudeau:

(https://i.imgur.com/sl9PeSj.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 16, 2023, 11:18:47 am
quit lying PoiLIEvre! Quit lying!

(https://i.imgur.com/yDvqMif.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on July 25, 2023, 12:23:27 am
Big cabinet shuffle coming this week.

Who is in? Who is out?  And what is Rocco Rigatoni going to do with all his free time after getting axed as Public Safety Minister?

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on August 02, 2023, 02:13:52 am
And what is Rocco Rigatoni going to do with all his free time after getting axed as Public Safety Minister?

Guess I won't have Paulo Pannini to kick around any longer.  I think that's probably the least surprising move in the history of cabinet shuffles.

Somewhat surprising, though, is David Lametti getting axed. I didn't hear anybody predicting that.

And Anita Anand being shuffled off to the Treasury Board is a surprise.  Most people view that move as a demotion. Anand is one of the few Trudeau cabinet ministers that is widely respected beyond party lines. Her work in making the vaccine roll-out a success is one of the few bright spots the Liberals could point to in the past 3 years. And her work as Defense Minister has been likewise well regarded.

Michelle Rempel wrote that Anita Anand's demotion only makes sense when  you keep in mind that she's one of the few Liberals with the stature and capability of mounting a leadership challenge to Justin. I think she makes a good point.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 02, 2023, 02:19:48 am
Quote
Michelle Rempel wrote that Anita Anand's demotion only makes sense when  you keep in mind that she's one of the few Liberals with the stature and capability of mounting a leadership challenge to Justin. I think she makes a good point.

If true, then Trudeau, and his advisors, are idiots.  You don’t demote your challengers.  You keep them happy with plum jobs. 

I don’t think Rempel is quite as smart as she thinks she is. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 02, 2023, 04:52:06 am
And Anita Anand being shuffled off to the Treasury Board is a surprise.  Most people view that move as a demotion. Anand is one of the few Trudeau cabinet ministers that is widely respected beyond party lines. Her work in making the vaccine roll-out a success is one of the few bright spots the Liberals could point to in the past 3 years. And her work as Defense Minister has been likewise well regarded.

Michelle Rempel wrote that Anita Anand's demotion only makes sense when  you keep in mind that she's one of the few Liberals with the stature and capability of mounting a leadership challenge to Justin. I think she makes a good point.

geezaz! Buffalo Gal Rempel... sure, sure! After her dalliance with supporting Patrick Brown for the CPC leadership, Poilievre still hasn't, and won't, let her back into the "mix"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNF8DxEyj9E

Quote from: Anita Anand, President of the Treasury Board
There is not one policy of our government that doesn't go through Treasury Board. I will be seeing everything from a policy perspective.

We need to continue to have our eye on how we can help Canadians during this economic time. And as the president of the Treasury Board, working closely with the minister of finance, that's exactly what we will do.

The prime minister has asked me specifically to go across the country, engage with chambers of commerce, engage with Canadians, and deliver our message.

My role is to ensure the government is spending public funds wisely while delivering on key platform promises like dental and child care.

Quote from: BringingItHome CPC leader, PeePee
This is another example of disrespect for women in Justin Trudeau's cabinet.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 03, 2023, 01:16:56 am
Quote
My role is to ensure the government is spending public funds wisely while delivering on key platform promises like dental and child care.

You know if the Liberals did more to help housing affordability for young families they could afford their own dental and child care.  Now the Liberals are cool doing almost diddly on housing while people go into deeper debt, then turn around and make them more dependent on government by just charging the costs of these dental/childcare programs to the federal debt which we'll have to pay back anyways...or at least the interest payments a hundred times over forever.  All under this illusion that they're "helping families".  What a bunch of clowns.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2023, 07:05:58 am
You know if the Liberals did more to help housing affordability for young families ...doing almost diddly on housing

repeating the post Shady so easily ignored:

c'mon blustering, blathering Shady... without even mentioning the role/responsibilities of municipal governments:

=> the Constitution grants what government level the authority over housing policy and programs?
=> which level of government is responsible for the development and management of housing?
=> which level of government is responsible for land use planning and other regional growth plans?
=> which level of government is responsible for policies that direct timelines in the municipal development approval process?
=> is the provincial government responsible for any level/degree of environmental assessment?
=> which level of government is responsible for land registry, titles, etc.?
=> which level of government plays a pivotal role in rules/guidelines affecting residential tenancy?
=> which level of government establishes metrics for rent control and rent increases?
=> which levels of government supply funding for housing initiatives, including affordable housing development and incentifying sustainable and accessible building practices?
=> which levels of government help to fund key community and housing components like transit and infrastructure?
=> towards aiding the supply of new housing, what levels of government can help with supply chain issues and assisting to resolve labour shortages for skilled trade workers?

by the by Nipples, towards federal funding, does it help to first have provincial/municipal governments actually sponsoring projects for said funding to be applied?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2023, 07:13:44 am
well PeePee is consistent if nothing else! "Disappear from the internet"!!! LOL!

(https://i.imgur.com/eXrsl06.gif)

receiving Royal Assent, Bill C-18 - the Online News Act that requires big tech giants (like Google & Meta) to compensate media outlets... to pay media outlets for news content that's shared and repurposed on their platforms.

timing is everything: continuing its year-over-year "crash dive", the failing Postmedia chain is in a 'life-saving' attempt seeking a merger with Nordstar (the owner of Metroland Media Group and the Toronto Star).

shockingly, PeePee has a different take - seeing censorship while wanting to, "Bring Home free speech"... #BringItHomePoilievre

(https://i.imgur.com/wrSZdzx.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2023, 07:53:30 am
{In the 2021 federal election} Conservatives ran on similar media policy as Liberals, but now claim it's censorship (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/conservatives-ran-on-similar-media-policy-as-liberals-but-now-claim-it-s-censorship-1.6504343?cid=sm%3Atrueanthem%3A%7B%7Bcampaignname%7D%7D%3Atwitterpost%E2%80%8B&taid=64cac88dea98280001084cd1&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)

Quote
However, the Conservatives' 2021 campaign platform under then-leader Erin O'Toole proposed a similar policy, calling on tech giants to fairly compensate media for the content they create through an arbitration process.
.
 When Australia introduced a similar law in 2021, Meta temporarily blocked news from Facebook. In that country Meta eventually entered into agreements with news publishers, and the minister never went through a designation process that would cause the law to specifically apply to Meta.

The Canadian government will not decide which companies are captured under the law. Instead, firms will be identified through a regulatory process of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, an arm's-length administrative branch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2023, 08:22:49 am
2017... National Housing Strategy (https://www.placetocallhome.ca/about-national-housing-strategy):

National Housing Strategy Resources

The following resources provide all the information about the National Housing Strategy.

    Complete National Housing Strategy (PDF) (https://assets.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/sf/project/placetocallhome/pdfs/canada-national-housing-strategy.pdf?rev=7d7a4713-2f37-4cf0-a13e-68d278867630)

    National Housing Strategy At-A-Glance (PDF) (https://assets.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/sf/project/placetocallhome/pdfs/nhs-initiatives-at-a-glance-en.pdf?rev=76dce104-9a4b-403a-8867-3e98b74f4fa6)

    National Housing Strategy Infographic (PDF) (https://assets.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/sf/project/placetocallhome/pdfs/canada-national-housing-strategy-infographic.pdf?rev=d42c6999-d2bd-4168-975e-bc1a4ce22f01)

    Consulting with Canadians – Let’s Talk Housing Report (PDF) (https://assets.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/sf/project/placetocallhome/pdfs/nhs-what-we-heard-report-en.pdf?rev=9a100e02-f359-47cf-8bf2-d6c47ca1177a)

    Investing in Canada Plan (https://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/plan/about-invest-apropos-eng.html)

    Federal Government (CMHC) Investments in Housing ‐ November 2015 to November 2018 (PDF) (https://assets.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/sites/place-to-call-home/pdfs/resources/funding-by-federal-riding.pdf?rev=431e125d-79f6-46bf-961e-b444cf66e23c)

    National Housing Strategy Announced Projects (XLS) (https://assets.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/sites/place-to-call-home/nhs/data-nhs-projects-map.xlsx?rev=a3bc8322-4c3b-4c77-bbaf-98112e81809b)
 
    NHS Triennial Report - Building the future together 2020 NHS Progress Report (PDF) (https://assets.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/sites/place-to-call-home/pdfs/nhs-triennial-report-en.pdf?rev=7619f9f0-9c76-4aa6-a418-366e01ea2832)


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 03, 2023, 09:15:46 am
You know if the Liberals did more to help housing affordability for young families they could afford their own dental and child care.  Now the Liberals are cool doing almost diddly on housing while people go into deeper debt, then turn around and make them more dependent on government by just charging the costs of these dental/childcare programs to the federal debt which we'll have to pay back anyways...or at least the interest payments a hundred times over forever.  All under this illusion that they're "helping families".  What a bunch of clowns.
Exactly.  They purposely make everything more expensive, and then pretend to address the problem with rebates or credits.  When the rebates and credits wouldn't even be necessary but for their policy making everything more expensive.  It's Orwellian.  The more people dependent on these rebates and credits the better for them.  It helps them stay in power.  It's such a warped way of governing a country, and never used to be the way any government conducted policy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on August 03, 2023, 09:39:46 am
That argument would make sense if Canada's inflation numbers weren't better than almost everywhere else in the world.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 03, 2023, 11:30:29 am
(https://i.imgur.com/CAJSmgD.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 03, 2023, 05:22:36 pm
That argument would make sense if Canada's inflation numbers weren't better than almost everywhere else in the world.
That argument makes no sense.  It ignores the extremely high inflation that’s already taken place.  It ignores the multiple carbon taxes, that make producing and shipping all types of goods more expensive.  It ignores the huge increases in costs of food, fuel and housing.  And it presumes that the federal government would feel the need to cut people cheques for food if prices weren’t an issue.  Get your head outta your a$$.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 04, 2023, 06:46:00 am
{In the 2021 federal election} Conservatives ran on similar media policy as Liberals, but now claim it's censorship (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/conservatives-ran-on-similar-media-policy-as-liberals-but-now-claim-it-s-censorship-1.6504343?cid=sm%3Atrueanthem%3A%7B%7Bcampaignname%7D%7D%3Atwitterpost%E2%80%8B&taid=64cac88dea98280001084cd1&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter)
Quote
However, the Conservatives' 2021 campaign platform under then-leader Erin O'Toole proposed a similar policy, calling on tech giants to fairly compensate media for the content they create through an arbitration process.
.
 When Australia introduced a similar law in 2021, Meta temporarily blocked news from Facebook. In that country Meta eventually entered into agreements with news publishers, and the minister never went through a designation process that would cause the law to specifically apply to Meta.

The Canadian government will not decide which companies are captured under the law. Instead, firms will be identified through a regulatory process of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, an arm's-length administrative branch.

oh my! As follows, a direct extract from the CPC 2021 campaign platform... but now considered "censorship" by the moronic Poilievre!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2mn1BkXYAIq3px?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on August 05, 2023, 07:59:06 pm
If true, then Trudeau, and his advisors, are idiots.  You don’t demote your challengers.  You keep them happy with plum jobs. 

I don’t think Rempel is quite as smart as she thinks she is.

Maybe she hasn't read The Art Of War, but I kind of doubt Justin has either.

geezaz! Buffalo Gal Rempel... sure, sure! After her dalliance with supporting Patrick Brown for the CPC leadership, Poilievre still hasn't, and won't, let her back into the "mix"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNF8DxEyj9E

"It's not a demotion," says woman who was demoted.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 11, 2023, 12:29:23 am
Bank governor: Carbon tax boosts inflation rate by nearly half-a-point
https://globalnews.ca/news/8681032/bank-governor-carbon-tax-boosted-inflation-rate-by-nearly-half-a-point/

c'mon Shady! You already played this tune and the waldo soundly rebuffed ya!

Canada exists in a global economy where there is global inflation. It's not realistic to expect the country to not be affected by that. I think the best anyone could ask for is somewhere around 2.8%.

of course headlineGrabber Shady is so on about the BoC responding to a HOC question about the impact of pollution pricing on the interest rate. At the March 2022 time of that question/response, significant global influences were impacting; for example, the Russia-Ukraine war and global supply issues. Since that response, the BoC, following its monetary policy, has made 10 changes in respective short-term interest rates. Clearly Shady, for relevance you need an updated impact statement from the BoC as to the current overall impact/contribution of pollution pricing to the prevailing interest rate. The waldo will give you a hand here: the BoC has recently stated that increases to the federal pollution pricing program have added a 0.1 percentage point to the interest rate. Is that a lot, hey Shady? Well is it?

of course there are variants in how to determine the prevailing interest rate... sumthin, sumthin about 'core inflation' and what particular inflation factors are used to measure it. Not so simple/straight-forward, hey Shady!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 11, 2023, 01:22:58 am
Maybe she hasn't read The Art Of War, but I kind of doubt Justin has either.

"It's not a demotion," says woman who was demoted.

 -k

Yeah, I am now thinking he really is that dumb. The article I cited in another thread was about how this shuffle pissed off the back benchers. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 11, 2023, 01:36:13 am
"It's not a demotion," says woman who was demoted.

Quote from: Anita Anand, President of the Treasury Board
There is not one policy of our government that doesn't go through Treasury Board. I will be seeing everything from a policy perspective.

We need to continue to have our eye on how we can help Canadians during this economic time. And as the president of the Treasury Board, working closely with the minister of finance, that's exactly what we will do.

The prime minister has asked me specifically to go across the country, engage with chambers of commerce, engage with Canadians, and deliver our message.

My role is to ensure the government is spending public funds wisely while delivering on key platform promises like dental and child care.

hey now kimmy - a significantly raised profile brought forward by cross-Canada engagement... how might that help Ms. Anand's future positioning? Hardly a demotion!

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 11, 2023, 09:09:41 am
c'mon Shady! You already played this tune and the waldo soundly rebuffed ya!

of course headlineGrabber Shady is so on about the BoC responding to a HOC question about the impact of pollution pricing on the interest rate. At the March 2022 time of that question/response, significant global influences were impacting; for example, the Russia-Ukraine war and global supply issues. Since that response, the BoC, following its monetary policy, has made 10 changes in respective short-term interest rates. Clearly Shady, for relevance you need an updated impact statement from the BoC as to the current overall impact/contribution of pollution pricing to the prevailing interest rate. The waldo will give you a hand here: the BoC has recently stated that increases to the federal pollution pricing program have added a 0.1 percentage point to the interest rate. Is that a lot, hey Shady? Well is it?

of course there are variants in how to determine the prevailing interest rate... sumthin, sumthin about 'core inflation' and what particular inflation factors are used to measure it. Not so simple/straight-forward, hey Shady!
Your multiple carbon taxes adds to inflation.  That’s a fact.  Every litre of gasoline now has 30 cents of federal tax on it.  EVERY LITRE. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 11, 2023, 10:33:23 am
Your multiple carbon taxes adds to inflation.  That’s a fact.  Every litre of gasoline now has 30 cents of federal tax on it.  EVERY LITRE.

c'mon Shady! Your parroted talking point has already been busted - the new 'clean fuel' regulation is not a fuel pump consumer tax levy... stop your misinformation. As for gasoline carbon pricing, again, you purposely conflate the assortment of taxes without properly identifying the nature of the respective taxes, without properly identifying whether they're provincial or federal, without addressing the carbon pricing rebates consumers receive, etc.. Perhaps the following chart will temper your misinformation campaign - yes?

(https://i.imgur.com/9I3c5Rs.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 11, 2023, 10:40:49 am
c'mon Shady! Your parroted talking point has already been busted - the new 'clean fuel' regulation is not a fuel pump consumer tax levy... stop your misinformation. As for gasoline carbon pricing, again, you purposely conflate the assortment of taxes without properly identifying the nature of the respective taxes, without properly identifying whether they're provincial or federal, without addressing the carbon pricing rebates consumers receive, etc.. Perhaps the following chart will temper your misinformation campaign - yes?

(https://i.imgur.com/9I3c5Rs.gif)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 11, 2023, 10:45:45 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_fuel_taxes_in_Canada

shockingly... your linked-to wiki numbers are not current - go figure! More pointedly, again, you purposely conflate the assortment of taxes without properly identifying the nature of the respective taxes, without properly identifying whether they're provincial or federal, without addressing the carbon pricing rebates consumers receive, etc.. Quit your purposeful misinformation!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 11, 2023, 12:20:55 pm
shockingly... your linked-to wiki numbers are not current - go figure! More pointedly, again, you purposely conflate the assortment of taxes without properly identifying the nature of the respective taxes, without properly identifying whether they're provincial or federal, without addressing the carbon pricing rebates consumers receive, etc.. Quit your purposeful misinformation!
Federal taxes are specifically outlined.  If the link is old, if anything that taxes are higher now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on August 11, 2023, 12:54:33 pm
This perfectly encapsulates why no one in power wants to solve the housing issue.

Canada Wants to Make Homes Affordable Without Crushing Prices (https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-wants-to-make-homes-affordable-without-crushing-prices-1.1957441)

Quote
In a country with some of the world’s most expensive real estate, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government wants housing to become more affordable.

But Canada’s new housing czar has a message of reassurance for the nation’s homeowners — it also doesn’t want to drive down prices.

“Our goal is not to decrease the value of their home,” Housing Minister Sean Fraser said in his first interview with Bloomberg News since he took the job on July 26. “Our goal is to build more units that are at a price that other people, who don’t currently have their needs met, can afford.”

Fraser’s comments underscore the ambitious — and contradictory — aims of a government that’s trying to quell a political backlash against the soaring cost of living, but doesn’t want to adopt policies that would damage the millions of Canadian households whose wealth is tied to their homes.

In other news, I want to lose weight while also eating a diet consisting of nothing but Popeye's fried chicken.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 11, 2023, 01:58:19 pm
shockingly... your linked-to wiki numbers are not current - go figure! More pointedly, again, you purposely conflate the assortment of taxes without properly identifying the nature of the respective taxes, without properly identifying whether they're provincial or federal, without addressing the carbon pricing rebates consumers receive, etc.. Quit your purposeful misinformation!

Federal gas tax $.10. Federal carbon tax $.11 plus 5% GST on the total including other taxes puts the feds take at about 30 cents a litre on the Canadian average price for regular gas in June.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 11, 2023, 11:52:15 pm
Federal gas tax $.10. Federal carbon tax $.11 plus 5% GST on the total including other taxes puts the feds take at about 30 cents a litre on the Canadian average price for regular gas in June.

member Shady has long been on a parroted talking point position against carbon pricing - and only carbon pricing! In line with the latest CPC ploy, he now purposely misinforms to, without qualification/explanation, include the federal government excise tax into the mix - a tax that has been in existence since 1995... the money from which Stephen Harper's Conservatives had no qualms in leveraging, the related policy and legislation that they had no reservations in keeping.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 12, 2023, 05:43:52 am
This perfectly encapsulates why no one in power wants to solve the housing issue.

Canada Wants to Make Homes Affordable Without Crushing Prices (https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-wants-to-make-homes-affordable-without-crushing-prices-1.1957441)

In other news, I want to lose weight while also eating a diet consisting of nothing but Popeye's fried chicken.

So unless renters start engaging en force they will protect home owners..
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2023, 12:55:53 pm
(4) Things the federal Liberal government is doing to help make housing more affordable:

(https://i.imgur.com/xOlZNaA.gif)

=> Housing Accelerator Fund (https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/project-funding-and-mortgage-financing/funding-programs/all-funding-programs/housing-accelerator-fund) - "The Housing Accelerator Fund provides incentive funding to local governments encouraging initiatives aimed at increasing housing supply. It also supports the development of complete, low-carbon and climate-resilient communities that are affordable, inclusive, equitable and diverse."

=> First Home Savings Account (FHSA) (https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individuals/topics/first-home-savings-account.html) - "a registered plan allowing you, as a prospective first-time home buyer, to save for your first home tax-free (up to certain limits)."

=> Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act (https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/housing-markets-data-and-research/housing-research/consultations/prohibition-purchase-residential-property-non-canadians-act) - "Effective as of January 1, 2023, the Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act (the “Act”) prevents non-Canadians from buying residential property in Canada for 2 years."

=> National Housing Strategy (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/government-day-to-day/msg109099/#msg109099) - "Canada’s largest and most ambitious federal housing program in Canadian history"
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 12, 2023, 01:29:43 pm
Wow look at all of that professional- styled cope for our lurkers to enjoy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on August 12, 2023, 01:40:11 pm
(4) Things the federal Liberal government is doing to help make housing more affordable:

(https://i.imgur.com/xOlZNaA.gif)

=> Housing Accelerator Fund (https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/project-funding-and-mortgage-financing/funding-programs/all-funding-programs/housing-accelerator-fund) - "The Housing Accelerator Fund provides incentive funding to local governments encouraging initiatives aimed at increasing housing supply. It also supports the development of complete, low-carbon and climate-resilient communities that are affordable, inclusive, equitable and diverse."

=> First Home Savings Account (FHSA) (https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individuals/topics/first-home-savings-account.html) - "a registered plan allowing you, as a prospective first-time home buyer, to save for your first home tax-free (up to certain limits)."

=> Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act (https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/housing-markets-data-and-research/housing-research/consultations/prohibition-purchase-residential-property-non-canadians-act) - "Effective as of January 1, 2023, the Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act (the “Act”) prevents non-Canadians from buying residential property in Canada for 2 years."

=> National Housing Strategy (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/government-day-to-day/msg109099/#msg109099) - "Canada’s largest and most ambitious federal housing program in Canadian history"
And none of that will have any impact if they keep demand far outpacing supply.  In fact, since their housing accelerator program, housing starts are down like 20%.  The biggest problem with the current regime is that they think everything can be fixed with a government program, and the more you spend on the program, the better.  Harper had no such programs, and housing was 60% cheaper.  Regardless, it’s funny that when Junior took office, he proclaimed affordable housing as one of his top priorities.  8 years later, he introduces these initiatives, too little too late.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2023, 11:06:43 pm
Now the Liberals are cool doing almost diddly on housing...

hey now Nipples! "doing almost diddly", hey!

(4) Things the federal Liberal government is doing to help make housing more affordable:

(https://i.imgur.com/xOlZNaA.gif)

=> Housing Accelerator Fund (https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/project-funding-and-mortgage-financing/funding-programs/all-funding-programs/housing-accelerator-fund) - "The Housing Accelerator Fund provides incentive funding to local governments encouraging initiatives aimed at increasing housing supply. It also supports the development of complete, low-carbon and climate-resilient communities that are affordable, inclusive, equitable and diverse."

=> First Home Savings Account (FHSA) (https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individuals/topics/first-home-savings-account.html) - "a registered plan allowing you, as a prospective first-time home buyer, to save for your first home tax-free (up to certain limits)."

=> Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act (https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/housing-markets-data-and-research/housing-research/consultations/prohibition-purchase-residential-property-non-canadians-act) - "Effective as of January 1, 2023, the Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act (the “Act”) prevents non-Canadians from buying residential property in Canada for 2 years."

=> National Housing Strategy (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/canada-discussion-forum/government-day-to-day/msg109099/#msg109099) - "Canada’s largest and most ambitious federal housing program in Canadian history"
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2023, 11:22:23 pm
Wow look at all of that professional- styled cope for our lurkers to enjoy.

(https://i.imgur.com/V5fVQTx.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 12, 2023, 11:33:58 pm
The biggest problem with the current regime is that they think everything can be fixed with a government program, and the more you spend on the program, the better. 


hey now Shady, since you want to keep running your mouth about housing, try not to once again ignore the following post, hey!

Quote from: Prime Minister Trudeau
I'll be blunt as well — housing isn't a primary federal responsibility. It's not something that we have direct carriage of. But it is something that we can and must help with.

c'mon blustering, blathering Shady... without even mentioning the role/responsibilities of municipal governments:

=> the Constitution grants what government level the authority over housing policy and programs?
=> which level of government is responsible for the development and management of housing?
=> which level of government is responsible for land use planning and other regional growth plans?
=> which level of government is responsible for policies that direct timelines in the municipal development approval process?
=> is the provincial government responsible for any level/degree of environmental assessment?
=> which level of government is responsible for land registry, titles, etc.?
=> which level of government plays a pivotal role in rules/guidelines affecting residential tenancy?
=> which level of government establishes metrics for rent control and rent increases?
=> which levels of government supply funding for housing initiatives, including affordable housing development and incentifying sustainable and accessible building practices?
=> which levels of government help to fund key community and housing components like transit and infrastructure?
=> towards aiding the supply of new housing, what levels of government can help with supply chain issues and assisting to resolve labour shortages for skilled trade workers?

c'mon Shady! For some reason you keep ignoring this post... oh wait, you keep ignoring it cause it messes with the Poilievre/CPC false premise that housing is solely the responsibility of the federal government... and hence, says PeePee, it's all PM Trudeau's fault! That's it, right?

and... after several challenges put to you, somehow you can't manage to actually state or provide reference to the PeePee strategy... the PeePee plan... the PeePee policies to help make housing more affordable! Are those repeated challenges a problem for you, hey Shady?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 13, 2023, 09:37:44 am
member Shady has long been on a parroted talking point position against carbon pricing - and only carbon pricing! In line with the latest CPC ploy, he now purposely misinforms to, without qualification/explanation, include the federal government excise tax into the mix - a tax that has been in existence since 1995... the money from which Stephen Harper's Conservatives had no qualms in leveraging, the related policy and legislation that they had no reservations in keeping.

50% of Canadians are within $200 of not being able to pay their bills and yet you think you can punish them into buying things  like expensive EV's and increasing the price of everything with more taxes. Looking at my last natural gas bill the carbon tax is now slightly more than the actual cost of the gas. People will look at that and go WTF.  If the Liberals don't come to terms with the economic realities average Canadians face and continue on the way they are, they will not win the next election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 04, 2023, 01:19:44 pm
And what is Rocco Rigatoni going to do with all his free time after getting axed as Public Safety Minister?
Getting human dumpster-fire Funghi Fettuccine out of Public Safety is a great move, of course.

too clever by half! And so topical/timely too - only, 5+ weeks ago! C'mon kimmy - the name is Marco; Marco Mendicino!

(https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendicinoMarco_Lib.jpg)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 04, 2023, 03:11:31 pm
too clever by half! And so topical/timely too - only, 5+ weeks ago! C'mon kimmy - the name is Marco; Marco Mendicino!

(https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Parliamentarians/Images/OfficialMPPhotos/44/MendicinoMarco_Lib.jpg)

We all know Mildred Macaroni's name you don't need to remind us.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on September 04, 2023, 04:13:50 pm
I would never give a child an alliterative name. It's like you left it up to Stan Lee.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 04, 2023, 09:42:49 pm
I would never give a child an alliterative name. It's like you left it up to Stan Lee.

Stan "the man" Lee?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on September 04, 2023, 10:28:26 pm
Peter Parker. Betty Brant. Matt Murdoch. Reed Richards. Bruce Banner. J. Jonah Jameson. Scott Summers.
I'm guessing he was inspired by Clark Kent and Lois Lane.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 05, 2023, 12:28:35 am
Stan Lee's real name is Stan Lieber.  Jack Kirby's real name is Jacob Kurtzberg.  Both Jews.  God bless the Jews.

Stan Lee is a bit of a fraud though and stole writing credits from everyone he worked with, including Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.  Stan was a great promoter, including self-promoter.  People think Stan created most of the Marvel Universe because that's what Stan told everyone, which is an absolute joke.  He didn't even write most of those books.  He was a brilliant editor though.  And he filled in the word bubbles AFTER the artists wrote and drew the whole book, including the dialogue many times, and then called himself the "writer" and gave the artists no writing credits.

Jack Kirby is the king.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 07, 2023, 12:54:37 pm
Jean-Yves Duclos - Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Progress on the Canadian Dental Care Plan

(https://i.imgur.com/xXwVY1b.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/PtJkWMw.gif)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 07, 2023, 03:25:26 pm
Jean-Yves Duclos - Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Progress on the Canadian Dental Care Plan

(https://i.imgur.com/xXwVY1b.gif)

(https://i.imgur.com/PtJkWMw.gif)
If you idiots stopped making everything purposely more expensive, people wouldn't need your pathetic handouts.  But that's what you idiots want.  Government dependence on your handouts and rebates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 07, 2023, 04:38:42 pm
Congrats on the NDP getting a federal policy implemented.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on September 07, 2023, 04:44:14 pm
If you idiots stopped making everything purposely more expensive, people wouldn't need your pathetic handouts.  But that's what you idiots want.  Government dependence on your handouts and rebates.

Handouts are good, actually.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 07, 2023, 07:39:00 pm
Congrats on the NDP getting a federal policy implemented.

cause far be it for you to actually acknowledge anything positive from the Liberal Party - amirite... of course I am!

(https://i.imgur.com/g6INQtK.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 10, 2023, 01:59:26 pm
geezaz waldo! A PoiLIEviere purposeful lie of omission!

=> video of PeePee's crew selectively editing (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1699917848557064192/vid/avc1/1280x720/DR-8SbiTwh2iOYpc.mp4?tag=16)Governor of the BoC Tiff Maclem's comment about the impact of carbon pricing on inflation...

=> video of what was actually said (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1699873965756542976/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/Hmlka_EsKVTAZGSP.mp4?tag=12): where Maclem states the impact is, "0.15% - calling it a relatively small affect on year over year inflation".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 10, 2023, 04:19:53 pm
geezaz waldo! A PoiLIEviere purposeful lie of omission!

=> video of PeePee's crew selectively editing (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1699917848557064192/vid/avc1/1280x720/DR-8SbiTwh2iOYpc.mp4?tag=16)Governor of the BoC Tiff Maclem's comment about the impact of carbon pricing on inflation...

=> video of what was actually said (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1699873965756542976/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/Hmlka_EsKVTAZGSP.mp4?tag=12): where Maclem states the impact is, "0.15% - calling it a relatively small affect on year over year inflation".
Oh my!

Bank governor: Carbon tax boosts inflation rate by nearly half-a-point
https://globalnews.ca/news/8681032/bank-governor-carbon-tax-boosted-inflation-rate-by-nearly-half-a-point/amp/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 10, 2023, 04:53:22 pm
This just in:  making things more expensive makes things more expensive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on September 10, 2023, 07:44:23 pm
This just in:  making things more expensive makes things more expensive.
Then I suppose raising taxes on landlords might not reduce the cost of housing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on September 10, 2023, 08:38:35 pm
Then I suppose raising taxes on landlords might not reduce the cost of housing.

It will reduce the cost of buying a home because tons of speculators won't be bidding on them anymore and driving up the price.  Then people who are renting may actually be able to buy the home they're living in instead of just giving their money to their landlord so the landlord can pay off the mortgage.  I doubt we've ever had so many houses owned by people not living in them in our nation's entire history because of all the rabid speculation.

Or would you rather speculators buy up all our housing and immigrants and young people not being able to afford a home?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on September 10, 2023, 09:55:42 pm
Your question is based on the premise your solution would work.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 10, 2023, 10:34:07 pm
geezaz waldo! A PoiLIEviere purposeful lie of omission!

=> video of PeePee's crew selectively editing (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1699917848557064192/vid/avc1/1280x720/DR-8SbiTwh2iOYpc.mp4?tag=16)Governor of the BoC Tiff Maclem's comment about the impact of carbon pricing on inflation...

=> video of what was actually said (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1699873965756542976/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/Hmlka_EsKVTAZGSP.mp4?tag=12): where Maclem states the impact is, "0.15% - calling it a relatively small affect on year over year inflation".

Bank governor: Carbon tax boosts inflation rate by nearly half-a-point

Shady, we know you mean business when you attach the 18pt font size to your links! Here, from your own linked article:
Quote
In his letter to finance committee members, Macklem repeated an observation he made at the committee’s March 3 meeting that the annual increase in what he called the “carbon pollution charge” was adding 0.1 points to the consumer price index each year. In other words, he said, had the federal carbon tax not increased, inflation in January would have been 5.0 per cent instead of 5.1 per cent

last time you dropped that same link, the waldo responded with the following:
of course headlineGrabber Shady is so on about the BoC responding to a HOC question about the impact of pollution pricing on the interest rate.

at the March 2022 time of that question/response, significant global influences were impacting; for example, the Russia-Ukraine war and global supply issues. Since that response, the BoC, following its monetary policy, has made 10 changes in respective short-term interest rates. Clearly Shady, for relevance you need an updated impact statement from the BoC as to the current overall impact/contribution of pollution pricing to the prevailing interest rate.

the waldo will give you a hand here: the BoC has recently stated that increases to the federal pollution pricing program have added a 0.1 percentage point to the interest rate. Is that a lot, hey Shady? Well is it?

of course there are variants in how to determine the prevailing interest rate... sumthin, sumthin about 'core inflation' and what particular inflation factors are used to measure it. Not so simple/straight-forward, hey Shady!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 10, 2023, 10:45:38 pm
geezaz waldo! A PoiLIEviere purposeful lie of omission!

=> video of PeePee's crew selectively editing (https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1699917848557064192/vid/avc1/1280x720/DR-8SbiTwh2iOYpc.mp4?tag=16)Governor of the BoC Tiff Maclem's comment about the impact of carbon pricing on inflation...

=> video of what was actually said (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1699873965756542976/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/Hmlka_EsKVTAZGSP.mp4?tag=12): where Maclem states the impact is, "0.15% - calling it a relatively small affect on year over year inflation".

now, now Shady! You deflected from the main point of my post (as above, again). For some reason you're ignoring the purposeful selective editing in the video your boy PeePee is flogging. Why would PoiLIEvre need to edit out the rest of what the Governor of the Bank of Canada (BoC) said - why Shady?

waldo reminder: Shady, it's your boy Poilievre that, for some time, pushed failed crypto as a hedge against inflation... it's your boy who repeatedly suggested interfering with the independence of the BoC... it was your boy PeePee that stated he would change the Bank of Canada's monetary policy - it was your boy Poilievre that stated he would "fire" the BoC's Governor.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 10, 2023, 10:49:19 pm
oh my, Shady! Have another, hey:

(https://i.imgur.com/lRnBjjl.gif)

Poilievre keeps nattering on with: Axe the Tax Facts
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 11, 2023, 11:28:55 am
oh my, Shady! Have another, hey:

(https://i.imgur.com/lRnBjjl.gif)

Poilievre keeps nattering on with: Axe the Tax Facts
The rebate industrial complex that the Liberals have created is wasteful and inefficient AND Canadians pay much more than they get back on any rebates, because you're not just putting a price on pollution, you're putting a price on energy.  And ALL goods and services are either produced and/or shipped via energy.  So you're essentially putting a price on everything.  You guys are f**king economic illiterates.  But I would expect as much from a party led by a drama teacher.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 11, 2023, 12:01:47 pm
The rebate industrial complex that the Liberals have created is wasteful and inefficient AND Canadians pay much more than they get back on any rebates

citation request

You guys are f**king economic illiterates.  But I would expect as much from a party led by a drama teacher.

and Shady pulls out the ole' chestnut...'drama teacher'. Hey now Shady, can you help fill in the gaps between when Poilievre had a paper-route and when he worked on Stockwell Days campaign - sure you can!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 11, 2023, 12:23:46 pm
You guys are f**king economic illiterates.

(https://i.imgur.com/HBAtT7s.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on September 11, 2023, 01:08:12 pm
I would think shady would be angry after losing his shirt by taking peepee's crypto advice. lol
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 11, 2023, 02:02:01 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/HBAtT7s.png)
More Liberal lies I see.  Regardless, nobody has put more people in poverty than Junior and his Liberal regime.  Heckuva job guys!  LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 11, 2023, 02:06:08 pm
I would think shady would be angry after losing his shirt by taking peepee's crypto advice. lol
More lies.  My Ethereum is a bit down from what I bought it at, regardless, it's a long term thing, so I haven't lost anything, because I haven't sold it.  I've sold most of my mana in December of 2021 at nice profit.  I have a little left, and it's way down, but it's irrelevant as it's not enough money to be concerned about.  I'm glad you're concerned though!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 11, 2023, 02:09:44 pm
Deflect, deflect, deflect.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on September 11, 2023, 02:46:22 pm
More lies.  My Ethereum is a bit down from what I bought it at, regardless, it's a long term thing, so I haven't lost anything, because I haven't sold it.  I've sold most of my mana in December of 2021 at nice profit.  I have a little left, and it's way down, but it's irrelevant as it's not enough money to be concerned about.  I'm glad you're concerned though!
It's not irrelevant considering going crypto was one of peepee's rare declarions of an economic plan.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on September 11, 2023, 02:50:26 pm
It's not irrelevant considering going crypto was one of peepee's rare declarions of an economic plan.
I guess you have to lie like that when you have nothing to show for your policies but economic devastation.  Congrats on wrecking the Canadian housing market.  Congrats on making literally everything more expensive.  Heckuva job.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on September 11, 2023, 03:28:38 pm
More lies.  My w is a bit down from what I bought it at, regardless, it's a long term thing, so I haven't lost anything, because I haven't sold it. I've sold most of my mana in December of 2021 at nice profit.  I have a little left, and it's way down, but it's irrelevant as it's not enough money to be concerned about. I'm glad you're concerned though!

That's weird: in February 2022 you were bragging about buying Mana (https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/the-crypto-thread/msg85291/#msg85291) six weeks earlier. Seems like if you had actually made a big profit you would have bragged about it at the time when you were pumping crypto. Sounds like you're lying now to make up for the fact you're a terrible prognosticator (how's the metaverse doing these days anyway?).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 06, 2023, 10:53:03 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/77nIk53.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 07, 2023, 02:02:49 pm
whaaa! Only in the wettest of PeePee's dreams does he speak for Canadians!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQP--WqHcAR4EOi7-GkQ1Jn1BJ8ez6MSbNBgw&usqp=CAU)(https://i.imgur.com/cMEeHLF.png)
 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 08, 2023, 12:19:28 am
(https://i.imgur.com/77nIk53.jpg)

Talk is cheap in politics. Results or STFU.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 08, 2023, 05:25:39 am
Galen, Galen! cheapTalk'nNipples has you on his blusteringNotice!
(https://thumbnails.cbc.ca/maven_legacy/thumbnails/268/875/ST_BURKE_GROCERY_CEOS_MEET_clean.jpg?crop=1.777xh:h;*,*&downsize=1130px:*)

last month the heads of the 5 largest grocery chains (Loblaw, Sobeys, Metro, Costco and Walmart) met with Industry Minister François-Philippe Champagne... by Thanksgiving, they were asked to deliver plans to stabilize food prices. Those plans have been delivered in recent days.

Quote from: PM Trudeau
If the chains fail to share their plans with the federal government by Thanksgiving, Ottawa will take action. And let me be very clear, if their plan doesn't provide real relief ... then we will take further action and we are not ruling anything out, including tax measures.

Quote from: Industry Minister Champagne
The grocery chains are promising more discounts, price freezes and price-matching campaigns. These measures will bring a much needed and more competitive marketplace and the winners of that are obviously Canadians. Canadians should expect to see grocers start rolling out these plans within days.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 08, 2023, 05:49:28 am
whoa Nipples! What say you to the PeePee/CPC lie stating, "Canadians were promised lower grocery prices by Thanksgiving" - plans, hey Nipples... plans to help stabilize/lower prices!

says the Sun's LilleyPad, Postmedia's chief CPC propagandist: "Poilievre roasts Trudeau over failure to lower food prices by Thanksgiving"

talk about the roasting PeePee received for using the Luongo's $120 turkey as being representative of actual grocery chain turkey prices! What a rube, what a moran!
(https://i.imgur.com/Og4eoAe.jpeg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 11, 2023, 12:32:19 pm
Quote from: Health Minister Mark Holland
Today, our government signed a healthcare funding agreement with #BC! This is just the beginning – we are working to sign agreements with every province and territory to deliver better results for Canadians. (https://i.imgur.com/XiHu9zs.mp4)

CBC - Chuck Chiang · The Canadian Press: B.C. becomes first province to sign individual health deal with feds, worth $1.2 billion (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bc-health-accord-1.6991510) --- Deal will see federal government shift $1.2 billion to B.C. over three years

Quote
The agreement is part of a $196-billion, 10-year national health accord that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau offered provinces in February.
.
The agreement with B.C., where the $1.2 billion in funding will be shifted to the province over the next three years, comes with an action plan covering the same period to develop "an innovative model of care" at 83 acute-care sites, mostly hospitals, that would allow nurses to spend more time with patients.
.
The new federal funding will also go toward recruiting and retention of doctors and other health-care professionals and would increase from 16 to 35 the number of Foundry centres in B.C. aimed at improving mental health and wellness among young people.
.
While most other provinces have agreed to the deal in principle, British Columbia is the first province to sign a tailored funding agreement with the federal government as part of the accord.
.
Data and information access is a major part of the agreement. Provinces and territories need to commit to massively upgrading health-care data collection and digital medical records in exchange for the funding.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 11, 2023, 12:44:10 pm
CBC - Chuck Chiang · The Canadian Press: B.C. becomes first province to sign individual health deal with feds, worth $1.2 billion (https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bc-health-accord-1.6991510) --- Deal will see federal government shift $1.2 billion to B.C. over three years
Let’s applaud the federal government for doing something it’s supposed to do! 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 11, 2023, 01:19:32 pm
Let’s applaud the federal government for doing something it’s supposed to do!

geezaz Shady! Good on ya! Who knew you'd be in favour of... accepting of... the federal government attaching requirements to provincial health care funding - who knew! But c'mon Shady, just how will you square this 'gate-keeping' with your boy PeePee?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 11, 2023, 02:29:31 pm
geezaz Shady! Good on ya! Who knew you'd be in favour of... accepting of... the federal government attaching requirements to provincial health care funding - who knew! But c'mon Shady, just how will you square this 'gate-keeping' with your boy PeePee?
Who said I accept it?  But if that’s what BC wants to do, good for them.  BC should send the federal a list of requirements attached to any tax revenue the feds collect from the province! 😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on October 11, 2023, 03:25:31 pm
Galen, Galen! cheapTalk'nNipples has you on his blusteringNotice!

last month the heads of the 5 largest grocery chains (Loblaw, Sobeys, Metro, Costco and Walmart) met with Industry Minister François-Philippe Champagne... by Thanksgiving, they were asked to deliver plans to stabilize food prices. Those plans have been delivered in recent days.

Hey congrats they gave them some papers.  You can't eat papers.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 11, 2023, 03:31:58 pm
Hey congrats they gave them some papers.  You can't eat papers.
Why isn't the government being asked what they're going to do to stabilize food prices?  Like eliminating the carbon taxes, which increases the cost of everything?  Or eliminating inflationary deficit spending?  Why does the government get a pass?  I'd tell Trudeau to fack off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 11, 2023, 05:37:28 pm
Hey congrats they gave them some papers.  You can't eat papers.

as there isn't a tag for it... your comment is f'n dumb! But hey, go with your strengths Nipples!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 11, 2023, 05:42:36 pm
Why isn't the government being asked what they're going to do to stabilize food prices?  Like eliminating the carbon taxes, which increases the cost of everything?

per economist Trevor Tombe: explain this graph, hey lil' buddy - explain it! Sure you can!

(https://i.imgur.com/PhpGZx0.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 11, 2023, 05:49:51 pm
per economist Trevor Tombe: explain this graph, hey lil' buddy - explain it! Sure you can!

(https://i.imgur.com/PhpGZx0.jpg)
Because it’s complete bullsh*t.  Food is cheaper in the United States.  It’s always been, for several reasons.  But you expect us to believe food is more expensive there, when their dollar is worth much more, thus their purchasing power is much greater.  On top of that, Canada has a vat tax, and the United States does not.  AND on top of that, the unites states has no carbon taxes, while we have multiple.  All of that makes it more expensive to produce the same food in Canada, than the United States.  And on top of all of that, our federal and provincial sales taxes is much higher.  So it’s literally impossible for food to be cheaper in Canada, by design.  Stuff your propaganda up you a$$.  You’re ridiculous.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: guest18 on October 11, 2023, 05:51:26 pm
You obviously haven't been to the U.S. since Covid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on October 11, 2023, 05:53:05 pm
You obviously haven't been to the U.S. since Covid.
Oh I have, on a regular basis.  I get groceries in Port Huron.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 12, 2023, 02:05:05 pm
per economist Trevor Tombe: explain this graph, hey lil' buddy - explain it! Sure you can!

(https://i.imgur.com/PhpGZx0.jpg)

Because it’s complete bullsh*t.  Food is cheaper in the United States.  It’s always been, for several reasons.  But you expect us to believe food is more expensive there, when their dollar is worth much more, thus their purchasing power is much greater.  On top of that, Canada has a vat tax, and the United States does not.  AND on top of that, the unites states has no carbon taxes, while we have multiple.  All of that makes it more expensive to produce the same food in Canada, than the United States.  And on top of all of that, our federal and provincial sales taxes is much higher.  So it’s literally impossible for food to be cheaper in Canada, by design.  Stuff your propaganda up you a$$.  You’re ridiculous.

geezaz you're stooopid! The graph says nothing about the actual pricing of food - rather, it's a comparative reference of the change in food prices - a comparison of Canada (Has CTax) versus the U.S. (Has No CTax). Your blusteringNatter showcased you lack even a basic comprehension ability... and yes... that you're reeediculous!

try again, try harder (you simpleton)!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2023, 02:59:56 pm
petty & petulant PoiLIEvre!

(https://i.imgur.com/LlCgjmx.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2023, 03:03:58 pm
geezaz waldo! Who votes against a National School Food Program... PoiLIEvre Conservatives do, that's who!

(https://i.imgur.com/X6p9HSf.png)

think of the kids, PeePee! Think of the kids!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on December 07, 2023, 03:08:06 pm
petty & petulant PoiLIEvre!

(https://i.imgur.com/LlCgjmx.jpg)
I love it!  It's time to exempt farmers, First Nations, and families from the home heating tax. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 07, 2023, 03:28:37 pm
I love it!  It's time to exempt farmers ...from the home heating tax.

c'mon Shady! Why doesn't PoiLIEvre ever mention that farmers already receive an exemption for their use of diesel & gasoline... and a tax credit to help offset the cost of the carbon pricing they do pay. Why doesn't PeePee mention any of that, hey?

and, of course, there's only one kind of farming that PoiLIEvre cares about - as in rage farming!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAXwxcobQAA5Eyv?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on December 07, 2023, 03:33:33 pm
c'mon Shady! Why doesn't PoiLIEvre ever mention that farmers already receive an exemption
It's not a complete exemption.  Why does Trudeau insist on making food more expensive?  Why does he have so much distain for Canadians?  I've never been able to figure that out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 09, 2023, 04:16:19 am
c'mon Shady! Why doesn't PoiLIEvre ever mention that farmers already receive an exemption for their use of diesel & gasoline... and a tax credit to help offset the cost of the carbon pricing they do pay. Why doesn't PeePee mention any of that, hey?
It's not a complete exemption.

c'mon Shady! That's just PoiLIEvre lying by omission!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 09, 2023, 04:17:51 am
just in recent days!

(https://i.imgur.com/MsAKnUv.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on December 09, 2023, 10:09:59 am
just in recent days!
Canadians see right through your horse sh*t!  😂

[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Coolio on December 09, 2023, 12:11:29 pm
Canadians see right through your horse sh*t!  😂

(Attachment Link)

The election is pretty far away.  However, I don't really think things will change. It is not a bad thing to shake things up, as the Liberal will have served 10 years in power once their ride comes to an end.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 09, 2023, 12:13:31 pm
ShadyDeflection... clearly you have no response... no want to even attempt to address these most recent PoiLIEvre "austerity votes".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 09, 2023, 12:47:33 pm
PeePee's carbon pricing LIE!

(https://i.imgur.com/8Aufa68.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on December 09, 2023, 01:27:53 pm
ShadyDeflection... clearly you have no response... no want to even attempt to address these most recent PoiLIEvre "austerity votes".
Clearly you have no response as to why you need to punish Canadians for the crime of heating their home during the winter. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on December 09, 2023, 01:28:29 pm
PeePee's carbon pricing LIE!

(https://i.imgur.com/8Aufa68.png)
These are so out of touch with Canadians! 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 09, 2023, 02:43:59 pm
These are so out of touch with Canadians! 😂😂😂

would those be said Canadians who PoiLIEvre/CPC lied to/misinformed about carbon pricing?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 10, 2023, 10:42:50 am
geezaz waldo! Who votes against a National School Food Program... PoiLIEvre Conservatives do, that's who!

(https://i.imgur.com/X6p9HSf.png)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GA7wDiTXYAAXrnu?format=jpg)

think of the kids, PeePee! Think of the kids!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 10, 2023, 11:26:47 am
again, just in recent days!

(https://i.imgur.com/MsAKnUv.jpg)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GA8iH06XUAAf_Yi?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 10, 2023, 01:45:28 pm
The NDP are trying to enact every program they've ever wanted.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 22, 2023, 01:12:32 pm
after the Competition Bureau approved, Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland has given final approval of Royal Bank of Canada's C$13.5 billion dollars acquisition of HSBC's domestic unit.

Freelands approval is conditional on: RBC establishing a global banking hub in Vancouver, waiving fees associated with the transfer of mortgages from HSBC to RBC and protecting HSBC's Canadian workforce. RBC will also have to increase its client operations center workforce in Winnipeg by 10%, provide $7 billion in financing for affordable housing construction across Canada and continue banking services at a minimum of 33 HSBC branches.

Finance Minister Freeland states PeePee's position on this RBC purchase is "reckless & irresponsible"!
 
(https://i.imgur.com/N906OJX.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on December 27, 2023, 04:05:36 pm
The NDP are trying to enact every program they've ever wanted.

Why wouldn’t they?  It’s also every program Liberals say they want but never enact. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Bubbermiley on December 27, 2023, 04:17:19 pm
Personally, I'm in favour of any program that supports working class people. Right-wingers have games the system towards the rich and powerful to such an extreme degree, we have to take whatever we can get.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on December 27, 2023, 04:28:08 pm
Personally, I'm in favour of any program that supports working class people. Right-wingers have games the system towards the rich and powerful to such an extreme degree, we have to take whatever we can get.
If you support working people you’d stop supporting policies that make everything more expensive.  But you won’t, because you don’t actually care about working people.  Working people have been absolutely crushed by this government over the last several years.  Absolutely crushed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 27, 2023, 05:06:27 pm
If you support working people...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fts7ukuaYAMsF1o?format=jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Bubbermiley on December 27, 2023, 05:06:41 pm
If you support working people you’d stop supporting policies that make everything more expensive. 
Was it the government or the profiteering corporations that raised food prices? Was it the government or profiteering corporations that caused rents to rise?

Also, have you ever doxed someone successfully?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 27, 2023, 06:28:18 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fts7ukuaYAMsF1o?format=jpg)

You think workers shouldn't have a right to work or have freedom of association, and should be forced to join labour union and forced to pay the labour dues, and be forced to walk off the job and forgo pay and be intimidated, harassed, and physically barred by union picketers from their place of employment during a strike?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on December 27, 2023, 06:32:17 pm
Was it the government or the profiteering corporations that raised food prices? Was it the government or profiteering corporations that caused rents to rise?

Mostly the government in most cases.  Different governments put in COVID restrictions that disrupted supply chains, gave out free money to make it possible to not work, and mismanaged many supply and demand factors in housing marketz over the last couple of decades.

Not saying the COVID measures were necessarily all wrong, but profit-seeking wasn't what sent workers home.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ArriveScam Shady on December 27, 2023, 07:22:08 pm
Was it the government or the profiteering corporations that raised food prices? Was it the government or profiteering corporations that caused rents to rise?

Also, have you ever doxed someone successfully?
The government, through terrible policy and inflationary spending.  Corporations have always sought profits.  They’re doing the same thing today they did 5 years ago, 10 years ago, etc.  what’s changed is fundamental conditions of the economy, like massive demand for housing, and massive inflationary spending.  Stop supporting a government and their policies that crush the middle class.  You care about workers the way an abusive husband cares for his wife.  It’s for their own good right? 🖕
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Bubbermiley on December 27, 2023, 07:48:56 pm
Not saying the COVID measures were necessarily all wrong, but profit-seeking wasn't what sent workers home.
But profit-seeking is what raised Loblaws profits by whatever ridiculous percent they went up by.