Canadian Political Events

Federal Politics => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: MH on December 05, 2019, 05:10:37 am

Title: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on December 05, 2019, 05:10:37 am
Or for this government ... day BY day.

Minority government boots up today, and CBC radio says our main issues will be:

- National Unity
- Carbon policy
- Middle class tax cuts

Really it seems to me we are less and less like the US every day.  I would like us to have First Nations policy more front and centre too.

And... how long will this government last ?  And how long with Scheer last ?

More fun boredom to come ! :D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on December 05, 2019, 07:25:33 am
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 05, 2019, 11:21:34 am
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.
Or maybe they could just do their jobs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: segnosaur on December 05, 2019, 05:04:14 pm
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.
Problem with that scenario: Elections cost money, and it might be hard for any of the parties to fundraise so soon after the last election. (The problem would be worse for the Liberals, since the conservatives tend to collect the most contributions.)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on December 08, 2019, 12:24:32 pm
One scenario is it is in both Trudeau's and Sheer's interest to trigger a snap election asap. It would give Mr. Sheer a second shot before he's booted and Mr. Trudeau a chance to regain a majority. This is why nobody has ever solicited my input into political strategy.

Highly unlikely: Scheer is a lame duck, under fire from within his own party to step down. He would only stand to lose support.
And while that may seem like a good time for Trudeau to strike, it's unlikely that he would get support from any other parties to call an election for such predatory reasons, when all opposition parties prefer that Trudeau not have a majority.

It's important to remind ourselves that elections are not about politics: They're about governance.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: queenmandy85 on December 08, 2019, 12:39:08 pm
No, elections are about winning. Why do you assume Sheer would lose. If he learns from the last campaign, he could win. Besides, what does he have to lose? A lot changes during the 5 weeks of a campaign.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2019, 01:27:18 pm
No, elections are about winning. Why do you assume Sheer would lose. If he learns from the last campaign, he could win. Besides, what does he have to lose? A lot changes during the 5 weeks of a campaign.
They are elected to govern. Governments that call elections just for political advantage should be punished.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 08, 2019, 02:44:52 pm
They are elected to govern. Governments that call elections just for political advantage should be punished.

That is what I said in fall 2008.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on December 08, 2019, 03:44:52 pm
No, elections are about winning. Why do you assume Sheer would lose. If he learns from the last campaign, he could win. Besides, what does he have to lose? A lot changes during the 5 weeks of a campaign.

Elections are about forming a government.

Scheer has lost support among his own party members. They are trying to get rid of him, but he refuses to step down.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 08, 2019, 07:28:47 pm
That is what I said in fall 2008.

Both parties have done it. Chretien smelled blood when Stockwell Day became the Alliance leader and wasted no time capitalizing on that weakness. On the other hand, fixed election dates can't apply to minorities because they would give the opposition parties sole control over forcing an election. Right now there is valid no reason to call an election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on December 13, 2019, 08:29:31 pm
Jody Wilson-Raybauld thinks she deserves governing-party sized offices despite the fact that she is on the very bottom of the list to get an office.   What a buffoon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wilson-raybould-rota-speaker-1.5395567
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 02:18:55 pm
Morneau says the economy is rosy but will increase debt by 55 billion over the next two years anyway. I though the budget was supposed to balance itself by now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on December 16, 2019, 06:56:59 pm
Morneau says the economy is rosy but will increase debt by 55 billion over the next two years anyway. I though the budget was supposed to balance itself by now.

Not when they promise tax breaks....
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 07:35:29 pm
Not when they promise tax breaks....

I know, so why BS people about balancing budgets? They never had any intention of balancing a budget and don't in future.
Trudeau is on track for adding 105 billion to the debt in five years with no commitment to ever balancing a budget. That's just as well because based on past performance, it wouldn't mean anything anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on December 16, 2019, 07:40:51 pm
I know, so why BS people about balancing budgets? They never had any intention of balancing a budget and don't in future.
Trudeau is on track for adding 105 billion to the debt in five years with no commitment to ever balancing a budget. That's just as well because based on past performance, it wouldn't mean anything anyway.

The Cons were no different....   promising tax breaks and no way to pay for them.  They were absolutely no different than the Libs this election.  Plus, they were even worse under Harper.   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 07:48:55 pm
The Cons were no different....   promising tax breaks and no way to pay for them.  They were absolutely no different than the Libs this election.  Plus, they were even worse under Harper.

Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Trudeau also hasn't had a recession to deal with, let alone the biggest one since 1929.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 08:00:57 pm
Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Trudeau also hasn't had a recession to deal with, let alone the biggest one since 1929.

Trudeau hasn't, at least so far, robbed the "rainy day fund" in a feeble last ditch attempt to try and show a budget surplus as Harper did after all those years of deficits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:05:07 pm
Trudeau hasn't, at least so far, robbed the "rainy day fund" in a feeble last ditch attempt to try and show a budget surplus as Harper did after all those years of deficits.

What rainy day fund?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on December 16, 2019, 08:09:42 pm
Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Trudeau also hasn't had a recession to deal with, let alone the biggest one since 1929.

Harper was awful by every measure.   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:12:26 pm
Harper was awful by every measure.

Whatever, he wasn't increasing deficits when the country wasn't in recession.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on December 16, 2019, 08:13:47 pm
Whatever, he wasn't increasing deficits when the country wasn't in recession.

Conservatives always have excuses for why "their guy" did things....     ::)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 08:17:51 pm
What rainy day fund?

It's more properly known as the "contingency/emergency fund" which is where ~2/3rds of the funds came from, the rest from selling GM shares, and at a loss of course, to finally try and show a surplus after all those deficits.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:21:49 pm
It's more properly known as the "contingency/emergency fund" which is where ~2/3rds of the funds came from, the rest from selling GM shares, and at a loss of course, to finally try and show a surplus after all those deficits.

When you are carrying debt and running deficits there is no such thing as a rainy day fund, only borrowed money you haven't spent yet.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 08:47:18 pm
When you are carrying debt and running deficits there is no such thing as a rainy day fund, only borrowed money you haven't spent yet.

The GM shares , for example, were not borrowed money. They weree shares owned, and then cashed in at a loss, for political purposes. You may need an update on basic economics.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 08:50:03 pm
The GM shares , for example, were not borrowed money. They weree shares owned, and then cashed in at a loss, for political purposes. You may need an update on basic economics.
No but we were borrowing money so we didn't have to sell them. Would you borrow money and pay interest on it just so it looked good in your bank account?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 09:00:19 pm
No but we were borrowing money so we didn't have to sell them. Would you borrow money and pay interest on it just so it looked good in your bank account?

Nope, but I'm not Harper flailing around in a last ditch effort to try get reelected using other peoples money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 09:06:03 pm
Nope, but I'm not Harper flailing around in a last ditch effort to try get reelected using other peoples money.

Who's money do you think Trudeau is using? Who gets to pay interest on what he borrows. I  would say pay back but we both know that won't happen.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on December 16, 2019, 09:48:51 pm
Who's money do you think Trudeau is using? Who gets to pay interest on what he borrows. I  would say pay back but we both know that won't happen.

Obviously PM's use taxpayer money. They just shouldn't try to lie about that or they may just get voted out, ala Harper. Maybe the revenue will help with the payback when the Trans Mountain gets done.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1952376/back-in-black-harper-sets-out-agenda-with-pre-election-budget/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 16, 2019, 11:55:11 pm
We pay over 26 billion in interest on the federal debt. How much was that revised deficit again? Oh, 26.6 billion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 04:14:50 am
We pay over 26 billion in interest on the federal debt. How much was that revised deficit again? Oh, 26.6 billion.

(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 04:23:48 am
How much was that revised deficit again? Oh, 26.6 billion.

(https://i.imgur.com/W4ufefp.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 08:48:31 am
(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)

 But it has been rising in the past three years, in spite of a supposedly strong economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 09:25:58 am
The deficit is now 34% higher than projected just 8 months ago, supposedly in a healthy economy. Why would anyone believe their projections six months from now, let alone five years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 17, 2019, 11:47:34 am
Debt to GDP declined between 2012 and 2015. Since then it has gone up 2.8%.

Canada government DEBT:GDP hit a high in 1995, a low in 2007 and increased until 2016 when it started to go down again. There was also a small drop between 2013-14 and a small increase between 2000-01.

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-government-debt-to-gdp.png?s=candebt2gdp&v=201911071607V20191105&d1=19941223)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 11:56:38 am
But it has been rising in the past three years, in spite of a supposedly strong economy.

no - again, federal debt service as a percent of GDP is at its lowest point... in at least 55 years; again, economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:00:27 pm
Canada government DEBT:GDP hit a high in 1995, a low in 2007 and increased until 2016 when it started to go down again. There was also a small drop between 2013-14 and a small increase between 2000-01.

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-government-debt-to-gdp.png?s=candebt2gdp&v=201911071607V20191105&d1=19941223)

Those numbers are for federal and provincial debt combined, not federal debt. Federal debt to GDP declined from 2012 to 2016 and has since gone up slightly.

Instead of modest 10 billion deficits declining to zero in four years, by his own estimates Trudeau is no track to add 175 billon to the debt, but only if the economy stays strong. I think that number will turn out to be highly optimistic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:01:24 pm
The deficit is now 34% higher than projected just 8 months ago, supposedly in a healthy economy. Why would anyone believe their projections six months from now, let alone five years.

already answered: again, your highlighted 34% increase (from $19.8 billion for the 12-month period that ends in March... now slated to hit $26.6 billion) is principally driven by changes to how employee pensions and benefits are calculated:

(https://i.imgur.com/W4ufefp.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:04:46 pm
Federal debt to GDP has gone up slightly since 2016.

why are you ignoring the fact that servicing of that debt is quite manageable... as a percentage of GDP, at its lowest point in at least 55 years.

I think that number will turn out to be highly optimistic.

more wilberMath, hey!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:05:43 pm
already answered: again, your highlighted 34% increase (from $19.8 billion for the 12-month period that ends in March... now slated to hit $26.6 billion) is principally driven by changes to how employee pensions and benefits are calculated:

(https://i.imgur.com/W4ufefp.png)

So what, that was there when the 19.8 billion estimate was made. Was the 19.8 just BS in the first place.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:07:45 pm
why are you ignoring the fact that servicing of that debt is quite manageable... as a percentage of GDP, at its lowest point in at least 55 years.

more wilberMath, hey!  ;D

Next time you buy a car, just pay interest on the loan and pass the debt on to your kids when you die. I'm sure they will understand about your debt being manageable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:17:44 pm
Next time you buy a car, just pay interest on the loan and pass the debt on to your kids when you die. I'm sure they will understand about your debt being manageable.

(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:21:42 pm
(https://www.manzanillosun.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/%E2%80%9CThe-Sky-is-Falling%E2%80%9D-Chicken-Little1.jpg)

So obviously you don't care about sticking other people with your debts.

Now I understand why 46% of Canadians are $200 or less away from not being able to meet their monthly financial obligations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:23:34 pm
So obviously you don't care about sticking other people with your debts.

protip: as you've been shown, debt servicing is quite manageable today
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:26:06 pm
protip: as you've been shown, debt servicing is quite manageable today
s

Yup, who gives a **** about actually paying for anything as long as you can pay the interest.

I repeat.
Now I understand why 46% of Canadians are $200 or less away from not being able to meet their monthly financial obligations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 12:38:13 pm
hey chickenLittle, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio is the lowest among the G7 countries!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 12:46:49 pm
hey chickenLittle, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio is the lowest among the G7 countries!

Number 7! We can do better than that. We should at least be number 3.

Actually it isn't. When it comes to gross debt to GDP we are behind Germany and the UK.

Canada 87.5, UK 85.6, Germany 58.6.
Source IMF
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 17, 2019, 12:50:09 pm
Those numbers are for federal and provincial debt combined, not federal debt. Federal debt to GDP declined from 2012 to 2016 and has since gone up slightly.

Actually our current federal only debt:GDP ratio is the lowest it has been since 2008-09. Yes there was a slight increase in between 2014-15 and 2015-16 (Harper budget), and to 2016-17 (first Trudeau budget), but it has declined every year since.

ref: http://www.rbc.com/economics/economic-reports/pdf/canadian-fiscal/prov_fiscal.pdf
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 01:05:29 pm
Actually our current federal only debt:GDP ratio is the lowest it has been since 2008-09. Yes there was a slight increase in between 2014-15 and 2015-16 (Harper budget), and to 2016-17 (first Trudeau budget), but it has declined every year since.

ref: http://www.rbc.com/economics/economic-reports/pdf/canadian-fiscal/prov_fiscal.pdf

Rejoice, your personal piece of the federal debt went up $1000 since Trudeau took office and by 2024 it will go up by at least another $1500.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 17, 2019, 01:09:39 pm
Rejoice, your personal piece of the federal debt went up $1000 since Trudeau took office and by 2024 it will go up by at least another $1500.

When I was born, my personal piece of the federal debt was $825
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 01:13:48 pm
When I was born, my personal piece of the federal debt was $825

By 2024 it will be $19,404 and that was before the revised budget estimates, so figure on more like $20,000. How much do you think your kids and grand kids will owe?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 01:25:26 pm
Number 7! We can do better than that. We should at least be number 3.

Actually it isn't. When it comes to gross debt to GDP we are behind Germany and the UK.

Canada 87.5, UK 85.6, Germany 58.6. Source IMF

no, your wilberMath will not prevail... now do net debt to GDP!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 01:31:58 pm
no, your wilberMath will not prevail... now do net debt to GDP!  ;D

Debt to GDP is bullshit, it has nothing to do with actual financial responsibilities, it is just indicates a capacity to borrow. Donald Trump would be proud of you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 17, 2019, 01:39:04 pm
How much do you think your kids and grand kids will owe?

so droll - think of the kids, think of the kids!

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.explosm.net%2Fcomics%2FKris%2Fstop2.png&hash=edf04252e149774417f05ce809b6201b87e95416)

note to hair-on-fire member wilber... yet - none yet... that I know of! (https://soundsilk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/SoundSilk-rim-shot_01.mp3)  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 02:19:05 pm
so droll - think of the kids, think of the kids!

(https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.explosm.net%2Fcomics%2FKris%2Fstop2.png&hash=edf04252e149774417f05ce809b6201b87e95416)

note to hair-on-fire member wilber... yet - none yet... that I know of! (https://soundsilk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/SoundSilk-rim-shot_01.mp3)  ;D

Someone has to, you don't give a dam.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 17, 2019, 03:07:53 pm
We got a tax cut, who cares if it isnít paid for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on December 18, 2019, 07:42:47 am
But it has been rising in the past three years, in spite of a supposedly strong economy.
You know the past three years is on the chart, right?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 02:56:03 pm
Debt to GDP is bullshit, it has nothing to do with actual financial responsibilities, it is just indicates a capacity to borrow. Donald Trump would be proud of you.

You pretend to know more than people who actually do this shit but you don't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 05:50:22 pm

You pretend to know more than people who actually do this **** but you don't.

I know it is being sold as reason, I mean excuse to go farther in debt. Any idiot should be able to see that.

I can remember the same sales pitch when PET was starting this whole thing.
Once burned twice shy but you will wear this a lot longer than I will.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on December 19, 2019, 06:13:04 pm
I can remember the same sales pitch when PET was starting this whole thing.

The debt:GDP ratio soared in the mid 1980's, mostly due to global financial markets and massive interest rates. For most of Trudeau's time in office, the debt:GDP ratio went down.

(https://www.ceicdata.com/datapage/charts/ipc_canada_government-debt--of-nominal-gdp/?type=area&period=max&lang=en)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 06:48:59 pm
Interest rates hit the Mulroney government much harder.

But it just goes to show how unforeseen changes can turn  borrowing into a nightmare and make  five year plans look like a bad joke.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 07:41:09 pm
Interest rates hit the Mulroney government much harder.

But it just goes to show how unforeseen changes can turn  borrowing into a nightmare and make  five year plans look like a bad joke.

Higher interest rates will actually be a net help as pension obligations would go down more than debt service would go up.  The IMF uses debt to GDP as the standard measure.  Itís the only meaningful measure. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 07:53:30 pm
Higher interest rates will actually be a net help as pension obligations would go down more than debt service would go up.  The IMF uses debt to GDP as the standard measure.  Itís the only meaningful measure.

It can change a heartbeat if we go into recession or interest rates take off. So why did debt to GDP take off when interest rates skyrocketed in the eighties?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 08:06:45 pm
It can change a heartbeat if we go into recession or interest rates take off. So why did debt to GDP take off when interest rates skyrocketed in the eighties?

Things were different then.  Our debt service costs are mostly locked in at extremely low rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 08:11:17 pm
Things were different then.  Our debt service costs are mostly locked in at extremely low rates.

Ya, things are always different then. Every generation has the same excuses for doing the same thing.

You do know that when times do change, that debt will have to be rolled over at whatever the rate of the day is.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on December 19, 2019, 08:15:38 pm
Ya, things are always different then. Every generation has the same excuses for doing the same thing.

You do know that when times do change, that debt will have to be rolled over at whatever the rate of the day is.

Since no one is talking about runaway debt, that isnít an issue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 19, 2019, 08:41:22 pm
Since no one is talking about runaway debt, that isnít an issue.

It isnít runaway until it runs away. You think you are so much smarter than previous generations while you do exactly the same things, making the same excuses.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 19, 2019, 11:28:43 pm
It isnít runaway until it runs away. You think you are so much smarter than previous generations while you do exactly the same things, making the same excuses.

chill member wilber, chill

(https://i.imgur.com/HkJnrc9.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:03:56 am
chill member wilber, chill

(https://i.imgur.com/HkJnrc9.png)

Are those dots the equivalent of Trumpís sharpie? The just announced revisions admitted debt to GDP is going to increase.

Canadaís gross debt to GDP is the third lowest in the G7.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:13:46 am
Canadaís gross debt to GDP is the third lowest in the G7.

it seems only YOU member wilber... focuses on gross GDP, rather than net GDP. Perhaps you should give the IMF a heads-up and get them to come over to the wilberSide!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on December 20, 2019, 05:20:57 am
Difference between gross and net debt?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 07:31:18 am
it seems only YOU member wilber... focuses on gross GDP, rather than net GDP. Perhaps you should give the IMF a heads-up and get them to come over to the wilberSide!  ;D

Those are IMF numbers. You and others only take into account federal debt, gross includes both federal and provincial debt and when it comes to total government debt we are not the lowest in the G7. Not only that but we are the highest in the G7 and one of the highest in the world when it comes to personal debt as a percentage of GDP.  Things are not as rosy as you would like to believe.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on December 20, 2019, 08:11:54 am
Those are IMF numbers. You and others only take into account federal debt, gross includes both federal and provincial debt and when it comes to total government debt we are not the lowest in the G7. Not only that but we are the highest in the G7 and one of the highest in the world when it comes to personal debt as a percentage of GDP.  Things are not as rosy as you would like to believe.

Very complete picture thank you.

Your note puts debt in context of the responsibility of the premiers and all of us, really.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 09:12:34 am
Very complete picture thank you.

Your note puts debt in context of the responsibility of the premiers and all of us, really.

I hope so because I see a real disconnect. Many of our so called ďprogressivesĒ are telling us we are destroying our world with things like over consumption with its impact on the environment, while at the same time we can continue to borrow because it is all about debt to GDP and our economy will continue to grow forever. I fail to see how you can reconcile the two.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:18:27 pm
chill member wilber, chill

(https://i.imgur.com/RaMqadt.png)
Those are IMF numbers. You and others only take into account federal debt, gross includes both federal and provincial debt and when it comes to total government debt we are not the lowest in the G7. Not only that but we are the highest in the G7 and one of the highest in the world when it comes to personal debt as a percentage of GDP.  Things are not as rosy as you would like to believe.

geezaz, personal debt? How you move the goal posts!  ;D

protip: you won't wear it well if you make the waldo red-highlight within a prior posted image

Very complete picture thank you.

Your note puts debt in context of the responsibility of the premiers and all of us, really.

protipDeux: member wilber saying so... doesn't make it so!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on December 20, 2019, 12:39:08 pm

protipDeux: member wilber saying so... doesn't make it so!

It's sourced.  Net debt and gross debt seems like an apt term for these things.  It's not on Trudeau to account for gross debt, but upon the premiers including the Resistence (LOL) of Ford, Kenny and the other two...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:42:49 pm

protipDeux: member wilber saying so... doesn't make it so!

Actually it is so.
Gross debt to GDP.   Canada 89.7, UK 80.8, Germany 61.9, EU average 81.9,
Personal debt to GDP.   Canada 100.02, US 77.6, UK 86.35, Germany 52.73, France 58.62, Italy 41.31, Japan 57.04.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:44:35 pm
It's sourced.

where? You pose a question... the member wilber responds (unsourced/unsubstantiated) and you thank him for, "his complete picture & contextual framing". So..........
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:46:24 pm
Actually it is so.

doofus! No one is challenging your gross number - just your focus/usage... and definition of - which you still haven't sourced/substantiated.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:48:02 pm
It's sourced.  Net debt and gross debt seems like an apt term for these things.  It's not on Trudeau to account for gross debt, but upon the premiers including the Resistence (LOL) of Ford, Kenny and the other two...

I'm not hanging it all on Trudeau, he is just another politician trying to get elected. We are already consuming renewable resources faster than the planet's ability to replace them, thinking we can just keep growing our economies like it isn't happening is just willful ignorance.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 12:50:29 pm
doofus! No one is challenging your gross number - just your focus/usage... and definition of - which you still haven't sourced/substantiated.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_debt

There are other sources if you care to look them up.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:51:58 pm
I'm not hanging it all on Trudeau

of course you are/were! You were quite content to run with your emphasis on gross debt... while the entirety of focus/discussion was on the federal government.

you still haven't sourced/substantiated your definition... and how you presume to use it, particularly in a federal context! Still waiting, oh disingenuous one - still waiting!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 12:53:58 pm
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_debt

There are other sources if you care to look them up.

nice go-fetch drop!  ;D C'mon, don't runaway - quote/source your definition, particularly in the context you intended/were using it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 20, 2019, 01:10:50 pm
member wilber, dropping a dumb-tag is just you Running Away!

here, let the waldo help you: net debt has financial assets removed, cause... wait for it, wait for it... should the need arise, financial assets could be used to pay back debt.
=> GovtOfCanada financial assets are principally composed of:
- taxes receivable (29%),
- investment in enterprise Crown corporations (26%),
- foreign exchange accounts (26%), and
- cash and/or cash equivalents (10%).

as stated: Canada has the lowest net debt-to-GDP of G7 nations; notwithstanding:

(https://i.imgur.com/RbEIipz.png)

don't be a chicken-little member wilber!  ;D


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on December 20, 2019, 01:22:39 pm
No, I'm done with name calling twits. If you can't be civil, just fuck off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on December 21, 2019, 07:20:23 am
Debt to GDP is bullshit, it has nothing to do with actual financial responsibilities, it is just indicates a capacity to borrow. Donald Trump would be proud of you.

and yet... somehow... you managed a dozen or so sleight-of-hand posts trying to flog your sky-is-falling GROSS DEBT-to-GDP bullshyte. Again:

(https://i.imgur.com/u80WJSn.png)

here, let the waldo help you: net debt has financial assets removed, cause... wait for it, wait for it... should the need arise, financial assets could be used to pay back debt.
=> GovtOfCanada financial assets are principally composed of:
- taxes receivable (29%),
- investment in enterprise Crown corporations (26%),
- foreign exchange accounts (26%), and
- cash and/or cash equivalents (10%).

as stated: Canada has the lowest net debt-to-GDP of G7 nations
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 03, 2020, 12:56:12 pm
weakAndy and CPC ilk continue to play up their boogeyman... continuing to warn about the coming 'Trudeau-made-in-Canada-recession'! Of course, no actual metrics support their nonsense. Meanwhile along comes the World Economic League Table showing current/projected country rankings for world's strongest economies - showing Canada has regained its top-10 status, ranking as the 10th largest economy in the world in 2018 and 2019... with projections for Canada to overtake both Italy and Brazil to have the worldís 8th-largest economy by 2029:

(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5e0f630a24000041245a4d92.png)

Quote
One of the persistent themes within the rankings is that countries that are successful in attracting skilled migrants tend to grow faster. And reflecting this, Canada and Australia, which are two of the most successful countries at attracting inward migration, are predicted to rise in the rankings

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 06, 2020, 10:17:37 am
through an assortment of recent print/media exchanges, Scheer's lil' Hamish has been out-and-about trying to reinvent/revitalize his standing in Conservative circles; a short snippet with an interesting question posed at the end: (https://twitter.com/i/videos/1211440074551971841) ..... was lil' Hamish running "an everyman" in an era of celebrity politics? 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 07, 2020, 11:28:59 am
it truly is ConMania as PM Trudeau comes back with a 'holiday beard'! PM Trudeau living rent free in their heads!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/aHJsrWX.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on January 10, 2020, 08:28:45 am
Wow. Shot down. 63 Canadians killed.

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/world/iranians-shot-down-airliner-western-leaders-declare-1.4759609

No.War.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 10, 2020, 09:13:41 am
Wow. Shot down. 63 Canadians killed.

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/world/iranians-shot-down-airliner-western-leaders-declare-1.4759609

No.War.
Why war? Almost certainly a mistake.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 10, 2020, 11:37:00 am
how does a CPC leadership candidate balance, 'the base'... and the want/need to be seen as a/the 'broader tent' party? Recent days Abacus survey:

(https://i.imgur.com/JILxJK1.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 27, 2020, 01:11:07 am
sweet! Other than Trump and acolytes wanting to push the name, 'USMCA'... the original name, NAFTA, is appearing more frequently in media coverage. Why even one of the key negotiators, Deputy PM Freeland, is now regularly referring to the updated agreement as, NAFTA... or rather, the new NAFTA. Why, I've even begun to read the name appearing as CUSMA in all its 2-syllable glory... with Canada noted first.

with Parliament set to return it appears Jagoff Singh is calling for a rigorous review of the complete agreement! Deputy PM Freeland has other thoughts; as relayed in a letter to party leaders:

(https://i.imgur.com/UyYv2kk.png)

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 27, 2020, 01:01:10 pm
The BC lumber industry will be interested to know that 99.9% of our exports to the US are tariff free. Considering that softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports, is not covered under NAFTA and has been continually assaulted by tariffs. Most recently 20%.

These kind of statements make it even more necessary that this agreement be debated. After all, that is supposed to be the reason we have a parliament in the first place.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on January 27, 2020, 08:17:20 pm
The BC lumber industry will be interested to know that 99.9% of our exports to the US are tariff free. Considering that softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports, is not covered under NAFTA and has been continually assaulted by tariffs. Most recently 20%.

These kind of statements make it even more necessary that this agreement be debated. After all, that is supposed to be the reason we have a parliament in the first place.

This agreement is pretty much status quo.  It isn't something that parliament can change - they can only reject or accept.  NAFTA has seen Canada's economy quadruple in size over the last 30 years.  We're better off with a status quo agreement than with no agreement, and that's the only alternative.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 27, 2020, 08:46:18 pm
This agreement is pretty much status quo.  It isn't something that parliament can change - they can only reject or accept.  NAFTA has seen Canada's economy quadruple in size over the last 30 years.  We're better off with a status quo agreement than with no agreement, and that's the only alternative.

Maybe so but there is some disinformation in Freeland's letter. It's a sales pitch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 12:40:56 am
Maybe so but there is some disinformation in Freeland's letter. It's a sales pitch.

you say there's disinformation, but don't qualify. I say your opinion lacks... sumthin! Your move.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 09:00:09 am
you say there's disinformation, but don't qualify. I say your opinion lacks... sumthin! Your move.

I did. For starters, the statement that 99.9% of our exports to the the US will be tariff free. That is clearly not so. Softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports and doesnít even come under NAFTA. It has been targeted by the Americans for years. When I said the letter is a sales job, it wasnít intended as a criticism, just stating a fact.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 01:12:48 pm
I did. For starters, the statement that 99.9% of our exports to the the US will be tariff free. That is clearly not so. Softwood lumber accounts for 5% of our exports and doesnít even come under NAFTA. It has been targeted by the Americans for years. When I said the letter is a sales job, it wasnít intended as a criticism, just stating a fact.

"for starters"? You mean there's more... you mean you have... more? You seem to be so flummoxed by this lil' ditty:
Quote
It safeguards more than $2-billion a day in cross-border trade and tariff-free access for 99.9 per cent of our U.S.-bound exports. When the new agreement goes into force, Canada will preserve tariff-free access to our largest trading partner, supporting hundreds of thousands of Canadian jobs, now and into the future.

that's a pretty definitive statement - yes? Not much/any(?) wiggle room there, hey! Given how DeputyDogFreeland has been so intricately involved in the actual treaty negotiations, it's hard to fathom she could... would... leave such an opening - so wide... that even member wilber could drive a load of softwood lumber through it - yes?

wait, what? Sept 5, 2019 --- A joint binational NAFTA panel ruled the U.S. must "rethink" imposed tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber - given 3 months to do so. As you say, for starters, any updates here member wilber - any updates?  ;D

by the by, in regards softwood lumber, Canada has leveraged the NAFTA dispute mechanism several times in the past
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 01:58:38 pm
"for starters"? You mean there's more... you mean you have... more? You seem to be so flummoxed by this lil' ditty:
that's a pretty definitive statement - yes? Not much/any(?) wiggle room there, hey! Given how DeputyDogFreeland has been so intricately involved in the actual treaty negotiations, it's hard to fathom she could... would... leave such an opening - so wide... that even member wilber could drive a load of softwood lumber through it - yes?

wait, what? Sept 5, 2019 --- A joint binational NAFTA panel ruled the U.S. must "rethink" imposed tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber - given 3 months to do so. As you say, for starters, any updates here member wilber - any updates?  ;D

by the by, in regards softwood lumber, Canada has leveraged the NAFTA dispute mechanism several times in the past

You are obviously an Easterner. BC has been going through the softwood song and dance for decades. The US imposes a tariff, Canada disputes it and couple of years later wins. In the meantime, US companies make hay at Canadaís expense. A few years later, we go through the same cycle again. We must be on chapter four by now and this will be no different. Dealing with the US Congress is like playing whack a mole.  Also, the US tariffs on dairy are not addressed, we just give up more market share even though we already import more than three times as much dairy from the US as we export.

All this deserves to be debated. Freelandís letter is a sales job, which is to be expected. She was in charge of negotiating the deal and a good part of her political credibility is staked on it. It is hardly an unbiased assessment and should have to withstand being challenged.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 02:02:30 pm
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 04:32:37 pm
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.

further more, I accept you now realize you weren't current in regards softwood lumber... that your bluster-bus doesn't stand! Your whine over Deputy Prime Minister Freeland's letter being biased is matched bettered by your own unsubstantiated statements (aka your biased opinion).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 04:41:16 pm
further more, I accept you now realize you weren't current in regards softwood lumber... that your bluster-bus doesn't stand! Your whine over Deputy Prime Minister Freeland's letter being biased is matched bettered by your own unsubstantiated statements (aka your biased opinion).

I am current, I know what is going on and have seen this movie before. In a year or two Congress will cook up another reason to impose tariffs and we will go through this song and dance again.

Of course her letter is biased, it would be astonishing if it wasn't. She has more of a personal stake in getting this thing through parliament than anyone. Anyone else in her position would do the same.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 05:04:24 pm
I am current, .....  In a year or two

oh my member wilber, oh my!  ;D

thought you said you had... more?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 05:23:38 pm
oh my member wilber, oh my!  ;D

thought you said you had... more?

Waldo, you should really look into the history of softwood lumber before you make yourself look like a bigger ass. This **** has been going on since 1982. We have won several times with different dispute mechanisms including the WTO but every time, the US lumber lobby gets Congress to impose further penalties under another pretence. Nothing has changed.

 It getting back to my original point, her claim that 99.9% of trade is tariff free, is clearly misleading, in fact, not true.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 05:39:42 pm
Waldo, you should really look into the history of softwood lumber before you make yourself look like a bigger ass.

why the attempted insult; why so personal, hey!  ;D C'mon man, again, in regards softwood lumber, that Freeland letter reflects the recent NAFTA panel ruling. Your ride down historical lane doesn't reflect this; i.e., you're not current.

again, thought you had more! Let's see your independent analysis that emboldens you with the following unsubstantiated claim:
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on January 28, 2020, 05:53:08 pm
Further more, this agreement is damage control. Who knows if we could have done better but it was definitely not a win for Canada, unless you consider not losing even more a win.

A status quo agreement that gave us a few things we wanted is as close to a win as anyone was going to get with Trump.  We kept him from getting most of what he wanted, also a win.  People from all political parties participated to make this agreement a reality, including Rona Ambrose.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 28, 2020, 06:09:24 pm
Itís one ruling in a succession of rulings, if you took the time to look into the history of this dispute you wouldnít be so damned arrogant. But you wonít.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 11:16:45 pm
Itís one ruling in a succession of rulings, if you took the time to look into the history of this dispute you wouldnít be so damned arrogant. But you wonít.

which has diddly squat to do with your incorrect statement concerning disinformation in the Freeland letter. Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling.

equally, your unsubstantiated opinion claiming the new NAFTA is, "a loss for Canada", doesn't account for jackShyte! Put up or STFU... hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 28, 2020, 11:36:20 pm
so... about that Liberal government want/intent to ban assault-type weapons during the current session. MacKay has taken his stand... again, reinforcing the CPC is the party of gunNutters!

(https://i.imgur.com/Wmion0u.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 29, 2020, 08:53:41 am
which has diddly squat to do with your incorrect statement concerning disinformation in the Freeland letter. Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling.

equally, your unsubstantiated opinion claiming the new NAFTA is, "a loss for Canada", doesn't account for jackShyte! Put up or STFU... hey!
The most recent NAFTA ruling is one of many over the years. Softwood lumber isnít covered in the NAFTA agreement and the softwood lumber agreement expired several years ago.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 29, 2020, 09:43:25 am
which has diddly squat to do with your incorrect statement concerning disinformation in the Freeland letter. Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling.
The most recent NAFTA ruling is one of many over the years. Softwood lumber isnít covered in the NAFTA agreement and the softwood lumber agreement expired several years ago.

you said you had more... still waiting!  ;D Again, the letter reflects the most recent NAFTA ruling. Again:

Sept 5, 2019 --- A joint binational NAFTA panel ruled the U.S. must "rethink" imposed tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber - given 3 months to do so. As you say, for starters, any updates here member wilber - any updates?

by the by, in regards softwood lumber, Canada has leveraged the NAFTA dispute mechanism several times in the past

(https://i.imgur.com/CttbMl3.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on January 29, 2020, 10:26:58 am
you said you had more... still waiting!  ;D Again, the letter reflects the most recent NAFTA ruling/b]. Again:

(https://i.imgur.com/CttbMl3.png)

As you refuse to educate yourself on the history of softwood lumber, as well as rejecting the idea that any politician would try and sell an agreement they were instrumental in negotiating, there is no point to this discussion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on January 29, 2020, 11:07:57 am
As you refuse to educate yourself on the history of softwood lumber, as well as rejecting the idea that any politician would try and sell an agreement they were instrumental in negotiating, there is no point to this discussion.

you claimed the Freeland letter was misinformation... you specifically pointed to softwood lumber tariffs. While you refused to educate yourself, the waldo has stepped in to learn ya! Again, in regards softwood lumber, the letter statement in question reflects the most recent NAFTA panel ruling. You know, the Sept 4th ruling the waldo schooled you with!  ;D

again, you said you had more... other than your unsubstantiated statements, do you... have more?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 03, 2020, 05:41:19 pm
CPC fake outrage continues over the Liberal government's $50 million incentive spend w/MasterCard. Clearly, Conservatives can't fathom a ROI that actually guarantees jobs (long term jobs - ~ 400) created with MasterCard establishing a Vancouver based 'enhanced security system' center. To CPC/Conservatives (and ConMedia acolytes), this is "corporate welfare"... and really messes with their tried/true practice of giving corporations mega tax breaks in a most presumptive (false) belief that resultant jobs will be created.

somehow, weak Andy is still playing relevant here!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/rFq7ykV.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 03, 2020, 06:34:39 pm
It doesn't really matter since our grandchildren will pay for it, should have given MC 100 million.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 03, 2020, 07:43:21 pm
It doesn't really matter since our grandchildren will pay for it, should have given MC 100 million.

That's not how government debt works.

This $50M bought a $490M investment from MasterCard that would have went somewhere else - it's hard to see the downside.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2020, 08:10:25 pm
It doesn't really matter since our grandchildren will pay for it, should have given MC 100 million.

Try doing a little simple math and you'll see those ~400 jobs will payback the 50 million in income taxes and long before the grandchildren.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 03, 2020, 08:15:41 pm
That's not how government debt works.

You're right, the gov sells bonds etc to investors and then have to pay the money back to the investors plus interest when the bonds come due. Then if they still need money they sell more bonds etc. and repeat until they pay down the debt and don't need to borrow anymore.  Since our government will probably never pay down the debt (why should we?  We deserve jobs & cool stuff) we'll never have to pay for this 10 million except for the interest payments (which we'll borrow to pay for anyways) so basically this is a free investment and is awesome.

Quote
This $50M bought a $490M investment from MasterCard that would have went somewhere else - it's hard to see the downside.

We bought this from MC?  So we own it?  I've never read that but that's great.  Vancouver has 4.9% unemployment rate but whatever, might as well give a few hundred people some jobs since we'll never have to pay the money back.

Liberals are deficit spending to stimulate job creation when there's historically low unemployment, which makes perfect sense and is exactly what Keynesian economics calls for.  What did Chretien and Martin know they're old and out of touch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 03, 2020, 08:19:17 pm
You're right, the gov sells bonds etc to investors and then have to pay the money back to the investors plus interest when the bonds come due. Then if they still need money they sell more bonds etc. and repeat until they pay down the debt and don't need to borrow anymore.  Since our government will probably never pay down the debt (why should we?  We deserve jobs & cool stuff) we'll never have to pay for this 10 million except for the interest payments (which we'll borrow to pay for anyways) so basically this is a free investment and is awesome.

We bought this from MC?  So we own it?  I've never read that but that's great.  Vancouver has 4.9% unemployment rate but whatever, might as well give a few hundred people some jobs since we'll never have to pay the money back.

Liberals are deficit spending to stimulate job creation when there's historically low unemployment, which makes perfect sense and is exactly what Keynesian economics calls for.  What did Chretien and Martin know they're old and out of touch.

Not all deficits are created alike - at current, Canadaís debt position is improving, not getting worse.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 03, 2020, 08:25:55 pm
Not all deficits are created alike - at current, Canadaís debt position is improving, not getting worse.

Debt-to-GDP shows a gov's ability to pay back the debt.  If we're never going to pay it back the stat means nothing, so we might as well borrow more i say.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2020, 10:40:23 pm
Try doing a little simple math and you'll see those ~400 jobs will payback the 50 million in income taxes and long before the grandchildren.

50 million compounded at 3% over 30 years is over 121 million.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2020, 10:55:13 pm
50 million compounded at 3% over 30 years is over 121 million.

And 400 jobs paying at least 10k/year amounts to 121 million over 30 years. Then there's that corporate tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2020, 10:59:11 pm
And 400 jobs paying at least 10k/year amounts to 121 million over 30 years. Then there's that corporate tax.

It doesn't matter, after 30 years you are still handing your grand children a 121 million debt because you never paid it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 03, 2020, 11:18:46 pm
And if your grand children don't pay it back it becomes a 294 million dollar debt for their grand children. So now they are paying 9 million annual interest on your 50 million loan. And if interest rates go up over the next 60 years, it could be a lot more.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 03, 2020, 11:26:47 pm
It doesn't matter, after 30 years you are still handing your grand children a 121 million debt because you never paid it back.

I assume you're talking about potential interest on the funds if they were left in gov't coffers. This is not a loan it's an investment and the figures show me it will pay for itself simply through job creation. (You know about income tax eh?)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 03, 2020, 11:41:29 pm
And if your grand children don't pay it back it becomes a 294 million dollar debt for their grand children. So now they are paying 9 million annual interest on your 50 million loan. And if interest rates go up over the next 60 years, it could be a lot more.

We haven't paid back anything when we started to borrow a lot starting in the 70's, except a small bit during the Chretien years, so that's around 50 years and counting of compound interest with no end in sight.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 12:34:05 am
Liberal government 'grow the economy' $50M incentive spend towards MasterCard security center was previously budgeted for as a part of the 2017 budget; specifically associated with the, Strategic Innovation Fund:

(https://i.imgur.com/85u6W34.png)


by the by, would any CPC supporting "fiscal squawk" member here care to offer up policy intent/strategy to align with your forevah debt-paydown talking points... and what results would impact upon the citizenry... and growth in jobs/economy? Anyone... anyone... anyone?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 07:22:26 am
Debt-to-GDP shows a gov's ability to pay back the debt.  If we're never going to pay it back the stat means nothing, so we might as well borrow more i say.

No, it shows our ability to carry it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 09:17:58 am
I assume you're talking about potential interest on the funds if they were left in gov't coffers. This is not a loan it's an investment and the figures show me it will pay for itself simply through job creation. (You know about income tax eh?)

No, Iím talking about actual interest paid or owing. Right now we pay about 26 billion annually to service the federal debt. The projected 20/21 deficit is about 28 billion. That means 26 of the 28 billion we will be borrowing is going to pay interest on what we already owe.

Assuming interest rates stay low, thatís 26 billion annually plus interest on any additional borrowing passed on to future generations in perpetuity. If interest rates rise, which they eventually will, that number will go up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 09:24:12 am
No, it shows our ability to carry it.
So you are saying we can never pay it back and future generations will have to carry the debt we accumulated forever. Can you imagine telling your children that when it comes to you person debt. Donít worry kid, you will be able to afford the payments on my Beemer long after I am dead and it has gone to the wrecker.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 04, 2020, 10:08:20 am
No, it shows our ability to carry it.

"What Is the Debt-to-GDP Ratio?

The debt-to-GDP ratio is the metric comparing a country's public debt to its gross domestic product (GDP). By comparing what a country owes with what it produces, the debt-to-GDP ratio reliably indicates that particular countryís ability to pay back its debts. Often expressed as a percentage, this ratio can also be interpreted as the number of years needed to pay back debt, if GDP is dedicated entirely to debt repayment.
"

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/debtgdpratio.asp
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 10:27:23 am
guys, guys... c'mon, you already plied your ChickenLittleSkyisFalling routine earlier in this thread!. Again, debt servicing is QUITE MANAGEABLE!

no - again, federal debt service as a percent of GDP is at its lowest point... in at least 55 years; again, economist/UBC econ prof Kevin Milligan... has a graph for that! => Federal debt service as a percent of GDP back to the 1960s - lowest in at least 55 years.

(https://i.imgur.com/u3G9D1g.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 11:31:09 am
guys, guys... c'mon, you already plied your ChickenLittleSkyisFalling routine earlier in this thread!. Again, debt servicing is QUITE MANAGEABLE!

That's not the point. Why do you think it is morally acceptable to run up debt and intentionally pass it on to future generations?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 11:32:47 am
by the by, would any CPC supporting "fiscal squawk" member here care to offer up policy intent/strategy to align with your forevah debt-paydown talking points... and what results would impact upon the citizenry... and growth in jobs/economy? Anyone... anyone... anyone?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 04, 2020, 11:50:17 am
by the by, would any CPC supporting "fiscal squawk" member here care to offer up policy intent/strategy to align with your forevah debt-paydown talking points... and what results would impact upon the citizenry... and growth in jobs/economy? Anyone... anyone... anyone?

I don't think there's any CPC supporters on this forum, myself included.   If there were, what would be the point.  If it doesn't align with Liberal Party policy you will reject it outright.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 04, 2020, 11:55:13 am
I don't think there's any CPC supporters on this forum, myself included. If there were, what would be the point. If it doesn't align with Liberal Party policy you will reject it outright.

how copishOutish! Sorry, forgot you're a Greenie!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 02:26:33 pm
It's no longer a mystery to me why Canadians are carrying the most household debt of any developed country and why so many of them are only a couple of weeks away from insolvency if their income is interrupted.

Hey, we can make the payments. Let's do it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 04, 2020, 02:49:15 pm
It's no longer a mystery to me why Canadians are carrying the most household debt of any developed country and why so many of them are only a couple of weeks away from insolvency if their income is interrupted.

Hey, we can make the payments. Let's do it.

It's not their fault they have so much debt, it's the evil corporations who take advantage of unsuspecting Canadians.

Being a few weeks away from insolvency isn't a problem because the government will always take care of us.  Saving money for when you need it is pretty dumb when you could take a nice vacation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 06:18:48 pm
It's no longer a mystery to me why Canadians are carrying the most household debt of any developed country and why so many of them are only a couple of weeks away from insolvency if their income is interrupted.

Hey, we can make the payments. Let's do it.

Households are not analogous to government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 06:27:32 pm
Households are not analogous to government.

You keep saying that in order to justify saddling future generations with debt you incur for your wants.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 07:14:26 pm
squid doesnít mind saddling future generations with his debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 07:50:47 pm
squid doesnít mind saddling future generations with his debt.

Gov. investment in viable business is different that debt. I expect the returns from MC will show that to be true once again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 08:03:00 pm
Gov. investment in viable business is different that debt. I expect the returns from MC will show that to be true once again.
Good grief if you borrow money and don't pay it back, it is debt. It doesn't matter what you borrowed if for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 08:48:50 pm
Good grief if you borrow money and don't pay it back, it is debt. It doesn't matter what you borrowed if for.

Is the 50 mil borrowed, or from tax revenue?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 08:52:12 pm
Is the 50 mil borrowed, or from tax revenue?

The 50 mil for MasterCard is neither here nor there. The point is we are borrowing money to pay interest on what we already owe.

Future generations will have billions of tax dollars going toward servicing debt we incurred and will get zero value for those dollars.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 09:27:26 pm
Future generations will have billions of tax dollars going toward servicing debt we incurred and will get zero value for those dollars.

Sure - but debt servicing costs are going down.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 09:49:21 pm
Sure - but debt servicing costs are going down.

Debt servicing costs are a function of interest rates. Are you going to guarantee they won't go up in your children's and grand children's lifetimes?

In 1979 I took out a mortgage at 9%. Five years later I had to renew at 18% and a month later they went to 20%.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 09:51:39 pm

The 50 mil for MasterCard is neither here nor there. The point is we are borrowing money to pay interest on what we already owe.

Future generations will have billions of tax dollars going toward servicing debt we incurred and will get zero value for those dollars.

It is actually "here" since MC will spend 510 million and provide ~400 jobs in one of our major cities. Is that not a good investment of government tax funds? Or should it just be kept in the bank gathering dust?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 04, 2020, 10:02:07 pm
Debt servicing costs are a function of interest rates. Are you going to guarantee they won't go up in your children's and grand children's lifetimes?

In 1979 I took out a mortgage at 9%. Five years later I had to renew at 18% and a month later they went to 20%.

I can guarantee that as long as the economy is growing faster than the debt, the debt will get easier to handle.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 04, 2020, 10:16:57 pm
I can guarantee that as long as the economy is growing faster than the debt, the debt will get easier to handle.

You can guarantee the economy will grow faster than the debt can you?

That's the thing, you could care less how much debt you saddle your kids with as long as you think they can handle it. But if they can't, well that will be their problem, not yours. It may be your fault but it won't be your problem.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 04, 2020, 11:29:04 pm
You can guarantee the economy will grow faster than the debt can you?

That's the thing, you could care less how much debt you saddle your kids with as long as you think they can handle it. But if they can't, well that will be their problem, not yours. It may be your fault but it won't be your problem.

I went into debt ~20 years ago to buy a house. I had to pay interest on the loan. I now own the house and the value has risen to where it will pay back the interest I paid many times over. I could have stayed in a rental apartment I guess.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2020, 09:05:08 am
I went into debt ~20 years ago to buy a house. I had to pay interest on the loan. I now own the house and the value has risen to where it will pay back the interest I paid many times over. I could have stayed in a rental apartment I guess.

That would be fine  if we were actually paying anything off but we arenít, we are just borrowing and passing the debt on to future generations. All debt to GDP means is we can afford to keep paying the interest.

Rationalize it any way want but the bottom line is all this debt to GDP BS means is we are sentencing future generations to use their tax dollars to pay interest for the rest of their lives on money we borrowed and spent. Unless they do something we werenít willing to do like actually pay off our debts.

If we borrow to build a bridge and donít pay it off, it isnít an appreciating asset for our children, it is just something they will eventually have to tear down and replace. Not only will they have to borrow to build a new one but they will be stuck still paying interest on the one they just tore down.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 05, 2020, 11:11:11 am
I can guarantee that as long as the economy is growing faster than the debt, the debt will get easier to handle.

"Easier to handle" indicates our ability to pay back the debt, which we'll never do, and our ability to keep paying interest payments.

I can guarantee that as long as the debt keeps growing, money wasted on compounded interest payments on debt will keep growing too.

(https://external-preview.redd.it/HDGrg66qn1kT1ZrcavJMso4_5tqFlkQts9QkY6a-sRU.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=a48621b2f746a36f472992041dcdd55dbba862b7)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 05, 2020, 11:15:05 am
I went into debt ~20 years ago to buy a house. I had to pay interest on the loan. I now own the house and the value has risen to where it will pay back the interest I paid many times over. I could have stayed in a rental apartment I guess.

1. You paid into equity on an investment that is known to forever rise in value.  That's much different than most of the money the government spends

2.  You eventually paid off your debt and the interest payments have stopped, something the government doesn't do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 05, 2020, 12:07:28 pm
1. You paid into equity on an investment that is known to forever rise in value.  That's much different than most of the money the government spends

2.  You eventually paid off your debt and the interest payments have stopped, something the government doesn't do.

Yes, we all know governments waste money. Now, money I spent on a house was not a waste because yes it rose in value. Money invested in a company as profitable as MC could well not be a waste because it generates wealth. People with jobs pay taxes on their income back to the government and they also buy stuff, pay more taxes there, and that activity supports other jobs. Buying Bomarc Missiles, now that was a good example of government waste. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 05, 2020, 12:35:23 pm
Yes, we all know governments waste money. Now, money I spent on a house was not a waste because yes it rose in value. Money invested in a company as profitable as MC could well not be a waste because it generates wealth. People with jobs pay taxes on their income back to the government and they also buy stuff, pay more taxes there, and that activity supports other jobs. Buying Bomarc Missiles, now that was a good example of government waste.

It may not be a waste. We don't want government to not invest in things but we should expect it to pay our debts and not pass them on to our kids and grand kids.

You paid your house off, governments aren't paying their debts off, they are just paying the interest. Unless it has great historical value, eventually your home will be torn down and the only value will be in the land it sits on. The house itself will just be an expense that has to be got rid of.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 05, 2020, 04:16:07 pm
It may not be a waste. We don't want government to not invest in things but we should expect it to pay our debts and not pass them on to our kids and grand kids.

You paid your house off, governments aren't paying their debts off, they are just paying the interest. Unless it has great historical value, eventually your home will be torn down and the only value will be in the land it sits on. The house itself will just be an expense that has to be got rid of.

I probably wouldn't care about the MC payout if it wasn't paid for with debt and interest.  It is an investment.  The question is, how wise an investment, for 380 jobs in a city with 4.9% unemployment rate using money we have to borrow.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 06, 2020, 12:06:51 pm
with the backdrop of HOC discussion centering on aspects of criminal code legislation associated with Bill C-36 (Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act (PCEPA))... as introduced in 2014 by then CPC Justice Minister, MmmKay:

this CPC ChildSoldier, MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) had the temerity to ask NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... if she ever considered being a sex worker!

(https://i.imgur.com/oX0cJj8.png)



MmmKay Bill-C36 legislation that has been significantly criticized as actually making it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 06, 2020, 11:34:24 pm
oh my! With a lil' spotlight on the aforementioned CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock), this gem has come forward  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXYzvxIy6Y
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on February 07, 2020, 10:19:01 am
He seems like CPC leadership material...   

They could run an angry goat in those Alberta ridings and the good citizens would choose them over someone with the Lib or NDP label.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 07, 2020, 03:13:06 pm
It was a dumb ass thing to say and he rightly apologized but rather than just blindly taking something out of context, it is worth looking at the whole exchange.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on February 07, 2020, 07:24:37 pm
It was a dumb ass thing to say and he rightly apologized but rather than just blindly taking something out of context, it is worth looking at the whole exchange.

What context are we missing here....?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 07, 2020, 07:59:06 pm
Canadians increasingly negative on government's performance: 13-year Nanos study

Canadians have been increasingly critical of the federal governmentís performance since 2015, with an all-time low in the number who think the feds are doing a good job, according to a Nanos Research study that began tracking the ďMood of CanadaĒ 13 years ago.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canadians-increasingly-negative-on-government-s-performance-13-year-nanos-study-1.4801766

(https://postmediatorontosun.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/trudeau.png?w=392&h=221)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on February 07, 2020, 08:12:53 pm
Canadians increasingly negative on government's performance: 13-year Nanos study

Canadians have been increasingly critical of the federal governmentís performance since 2015, with an all-time low in the number who think the feds are doing a good job, according to a Nanos Research study that began tracking the ďMood of CanadaĒ 13 years ago.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canadians-increasingly-negative-on-government-s-performance-13-year-nanos-study-1.4801766


Meh....   still 50x better than Scheer and the CPC.    Way better than Harperís bunch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 07, 2020, 08:17:39 pm

Meh....   still 50x better than Scheer and the CPC.    Way better than Harperís bunch.

Actually, more Canadians voted for Scheer than Trudeau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on February 07, 2020, 08:23:44 pm
Actually, more Canadians voted for Scheer than Trudeau.

And that is relevant how?  What does that mean to you?  2/3 voted for someone other than Scheer.

I think the election turned out as well as could have been hoped with a Lib minority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 07, 2020, 09:57:28 pm
What context are we missing here....?

Did you watch the complete exchange between the two?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 12:28:30 am
It was a dumb ass thing to say and he rightly apologized but rather than just blindly taking something out of context, it is worth looking at the whole exchange.
Did you watch the complete exchange between the two?

the neanderthal CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) started his comments with the dumbazz question to NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... asking if she ever considered being a sex worker! The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

I would suggest a new thread if you feel a need/want to support Viersen's, as you say, "context"... where, I interpret, his "strong Christian faith" doesn't allow him to accept that some women are in the work at their own volition... not forced, not coerced.
(https://i.imgur.com/2PXFMyp.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 12:43:50 am
what is with these idgit Conservatives who demean/attack teachers & education... like justVisitingJason, like DOFO... like O'Tool... implying PM Trudeau's years as a teacher weren't, as he states, "real world" work!

(https://i.imgur.com/uiNsMb3.png)

as for those stated "12 years served in the Canadian Armed Forces", I interpret 7 of those years as paid education in regards an undergraduate degree from the Royal Military College of Canada (RMC) in Kingston and, while in the Canadian Forces reserves, a law degree from Dalhousie University in Halifax..... I stand to be corrected but I interpret the other 5 years as the service commitment required to meet the terms of his military paid education. The point being, I believe, he got out after his service commitment was realized.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 08, 2020, 06:18:18 pm
the neanderthal CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) started his comments with the dumbazz question to NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... asking if she ever considered being a sex worker! The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

I would suggest a new thread if you feel a need/want to support Viersen's, as you say, "context"... where, I interpret, his "strong Christian faith" doesn't allow him to accept that some women are in the work at their own volition... not forced, not coerced.
(https://i.imgur.com/2PXFMyp.png)

Iím not supporting Viersons comment, but waldo being waldo continues to take one sentence out of context without  posting or linking the whole exchange between the two.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 07:15:01 pm
Iím not supporting Viersons comment, but waldo being waldo continues to take one sentence out of context without  posting or linking the whole exchange between the two.

bullshyte! I offered my interpretation of what your presumptive "missing context" was; again:
the neanderthal CPC MP Arnold Viersen (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) started his comments with the dumbazz question to NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria)... asking if she ever considered being a sex worker! The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

member wilber being member wilber... you beak-off about "missing context" but haven't said a single word as to what said "missing context" was! There's certainly nothing stopping you from, as you say, "posting or linking the whole exchange between the two" - is there. Again, step-up and state your claimed "missing context". Is this a problem for you?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 08, 2020, 07:47:50 pm
bullshyte! I offered my interpretation of what your presumptive "missing context" was; again:
member wilber being member wilber... you beak-off about "missing context" but haven't said a single word as to what said "missing context" was! There's certainly nothing stopping you from, as you say, "posting or linking the whole exchange between the two" - is there. Again, step-up and state your claimed "missing context". Is this a problem for you?

You took a statement out context and ran with it. Post the whole exchange, it's not up to me. I didn't start this. Why don't you want to? Don't tell us you can't with all the other crap you link and post.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 08, 2020, 08:49:47 pm
The reason I brought it up is I think Vierson actually had a point, but he made himself a dumb ass because he would have never said something like that to a man.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 08, 2020, 11:57:39 pm
You took a statement out context and ran with it. Post the whole exchange, it's not up to me. I didn't start this. Why don't you want to?
The reason I brought it up is I think Vierson actually had a point, but he made himself a dumb ass because he would have never said something like that to a man.

again, you're not adding anything of relevance here! You continue to speak of, "missing context... out of context", while adding dickAll as to the said context you're wailin'/whinin' about. You say the dumbAzz Viersen has a point, but you can't manage to articulate just what your claimed point is. ;D Member wilber being member wilber!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 09, 2020, 09:32:33 am
again, you're not adding anything of relevance here! You continue to speak of, "missing context... out of context", while adding dickAll as to the said context you're wailin'/whinin' about. You say the dumbAzz Viersen has a point, but you can't manage to articulate just what your claimed point is. ;D Member wilber being member wilber!
Still wonít post it will you. Come on waldo, itís easy to find. It think Viersen had a point but he is a dumb ass because he made an ignorant comment which has allowed the noise from that to completely drown out the argument he was trying to make. And thatís the way you like it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 09, 2020, 11:18:40 am
Still wonít post it will you. Come on waldo, itís easy to find. It think Viersen had a point but he is a dumb ass because he made an ignorant comment which has allowed the noise from that to completely drown out the argument he was trying to make. And thatís the way you like it.

oh c'mon member wilber... being member wilber! You blather on about missing context, but you can't/won't state what's missing. You claim the guy has a point, but you can't/won't state what that point is. Notwithstanding CPC MP Arnold Viersen's (Alberta - Peace River-Westlock) ignorant comment, you apparently believe what he said has merit, but you can't/won't articulate your interpreted merit.

as below, I've stated/previously re-quoted what I interpret CPC MP Arnold Viersen's comments were about, but you can't/won't counter what I've stated in that regard!

The only other "context", as you say, has him attempting to support the Harper Conservative Bill C-36 legislation that MacKay introduced in 2014 as Justice Minister... that, as many analysts state, actually makes it harder for sex workers to do their job safely: Evaluating Canada's Sex Work Laws: The Case for Repeal (http://www.pivotlegal.org/evaluating_canada_s_sex_work_laws_the_case_for_repeal)

... as you say, "context"... where, I interpret, his "strong Christian faith" doesn't allow him to accept that some women are in the work at their own volition... not forced, not coerced.

quit playing silly-buggar and say something... preferably in a separate dedicated thread related to the topic NDP MP, Laurel Collins (Victoria) was commenting on... before dumbazz Viersen asked her if she ever considered being a sex worker!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 09, 2020, 12:34:08 pm
Not playing your stupid games. You can either post the whole exchange plus the question that started it then we can discus it, or you can put a sock in it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 09, 2020, 01:23:18 pm
Not playing your stupid games. You can either post the whole exchange plus the question that started it then we can discus it, or you can put a sock in it.

I'm quite fine showcasing member wilber... being member wilber!

... but you can't/won't state what's missing... but you can't/won't state what that point is... but you can't/won't articulate your interpreted merit... but you can't/won't counter what I've stated in that regard!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 10, 2020, 10:49:00 am
Someone on twitter described measuring debt nominally as crayon economics.  I think they might be on to something.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2020, 11:21:47 am
Someone on twitter described measuring debt nominally as crayon economics.  I think they might be on to something.
That's about the best way to describe it. These armchair economists with little more than an introductory course (if that) are so clueless, it's impossible to even discuss the issues with them. Conservative politicians feed on this ignorance to dupe working class people into voting against their interests (ie, conservative parties engaging in reverse Robin Hood policies).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on February 10, 2020, 11:30:16 am
  Conservative politicians feed on this ignorance to dupe working class people into voting against their interests (ie, conservative parties engaging in reverse Robin Hood policies).

That's not always true, Cyber.  Republicans have stopped talking about the deficit for some reason and the Tea Party is strangely silent.

In serious news, I agree that people are woefully uninformed about debt, deficit and so on.  I feel that we are currently paying for infrastructure with our deficit which is ok by me.  That said, we can probably afford to hike taxes a little bit and improve our services, ie. INVEST in our services.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 11:49:15 am
Someone on twitter described measuring debt nominally as crayon economics.  I think they might be on to something.

Tell that to your bank.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 11:53:19 am
That's not always true, Cyber.  Republicans have stopped talking about the deficit for some reason and the Tea Party is strangely silent.

In serious news, I agree that people are woefully uninformed about debt, deficit and so on.  I feel that we are currently paying for infrastructure with our deficit which is ok by me.  That said, we can probably afford to hike taxes a little bit and improve our services, ie. INVEST in our services.

We aren't paying for infrastructure, we borrow to build it all we do is carry the interest, we aren't actually "paying" for anything.

It's the same as me buying a car on a personal line of credit and never doing more than paying interest on the balance. One day the car is worth nothing but I still owe the same amount of money for it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:00:28 pm
Today's Republican party is socially conservative and its primary objective is staying in power regardless of the cost. They are certainly not fiscal conservatives.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2020, 12:09:50 pm
Tell that to your bank.
National economies do not work like personal finances.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:19:14 pm
National economies do not work like personal finances.

Yes they do. If you borrow more money, you need more income to finance the debt. If you don't pay off the debt, you have to carry the interest until you do. What did you think debt to GDP means?

A few years ago BC replaced the Port Mann bridge at a construction cost of 2.5 billion. In another 60 or 70 years that bridge will need replacement and will probably cost four or five times as much. Aside from paying interest on that 2.5 billion for 60 or 70 years, do you think that 2.5 billion debt will just disappear along with the old bridge when it is torn down?

This is pretty basic stuff.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:24:29 pm
National economies do not work like personal finances.

If you don't think borrowing and not paying it off matters, just look at the US.

When Obama left office, interest on the US federal debt was 280 billion, now it is over 400 billion and is on track to be over 700 billion by 2024 at current US 10yr bond rates. That's over 700 billion they will have to raise through taxes or additional borrowing just to pay interest on what they already owe. You don't think that will have an affect on the economy or services government will be able to provide in future?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on February 10, 2020, 12:35:43 pm
If you think national economies work like household finances, then you really don't understand economics. It would take way too long to explain exactly why you're wrong, but consider that you don't change your household revenues with the stroke of a pen. It's an entirely different system.

However, as has been mentioned to you numerous times before, even in household finances, what's more important than your absolute debt is your ability to service your debt. If someone has millions of dollars tied up in assets, a $100,000 loan is nothing. When someone makes $25,000 per year, a $100,000 loan is massive.

When it comes to debt $1 is not the same as another $1.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 12:49:27 pm
If you think national economies work like household finances, then you really don't understand economics. It would take way too long to explain exactly why you're wrong, but consider that you don't change your household revenues with the stroke of a pen. It's an entirely different system.

However, as has been mentioned to you numerous times before, even in household finances, what's more important than your absolute debt is your ability to service your debt. If someone has millions of dollars tied up in assets, a $100,000 loan is nothing. When someone makes $25,000 per year, a $100,000 loan is massive.

When it comes to debt $1 is not the same as another $1.

Canada's debt got out of hand in the late eighties and early nineties, the result was Canada's credit rating was going in the dumpster forcing Chretien and Martin into slash and burn fiscal policies. Transfers to provinces, including health care were significantly reduced, military spending was cut by 30%.

So are you seriously saying our country would be in a good position if it had to sell off its assets in order to manage its debt?

You can have a 5 million dollar home but if you have a million dollar mortgage and a $100K income, you won't be living in it for very long. You would have a tough time paying the taxes and maintenance on it even if you had no mortgage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on February 10, 2020, 01:01:44 pm
We aren't paying for infrastructure, we borrow to build it all we do is carry the interest, we aren't actually "paying" for anything.

It's the same as me buying a car on a personal line of credit and never doing more than paying interest on the balance. One day the car is worth nothing but I still owe the same amount of money for it.

Are you sure ?  Last time I checked it was a pretty close match between investment and the deficit.

Maybe Waldo can help us.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 01:08:50 pm
Are you sure ?  Last time I checked it was a pretty close match between investment and the deficit.

Maybe Waldo can help us.

I'm not saying we shouldn't borrow to finance infrastructure, I'm saying pay off the debt, don't just pay the interest on it, passing the debt on to your grand children who will be stuck with replacing that infrastructure while carrying your debt as well. That is only an investment for you, it is a liability for future generations. Debt to GDP are just weasel words justifying never having to pay anything off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 01:14:56 pm
Contrary to what some of you are maintaining, the only difference between personal debt government debt is we don't pass our personal debts down to our children and grand children.

On edit.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 10, 2020, 01:43:18 pm
Contrary to what some of you are maintaining, the only difference between personal debt government debt is we don't pass our personal debts down to our children and grand children.

oh really! (https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+the+federal+budget+is+not+like+a+household+budget)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 01:46:33 pm
oh really! (https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+the+federal+budget+is+not+like+a+household+budget)

Ya really.

Let me put it this way. Say you are 23 years old, just finished university and have your first job in the permanent work force, the government debt doesn't change by one penny from what it is today and interest rates remain the same. If you make it to 90 years old, over 1.7 trillion dollars in interest will have been paid on money that was borrowed before you were 23.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on February 10, 2020, 01:55:02 pm
Why should I have to pay 100% of the costs of a bridge that will be around 50 years after I die ?

I'm ok with that stuff being paid off over time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 02:02:22 pm
Why should I have to pay 100% of the costs of a bridge that will be around 50 years after I die ?

I'm ok with that stuff being paid off over time.

Well if you are a certain age, you won't be around to see a lot of things get paid off but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid off.
If the Port Mann is amortized over 30 years I won't be around to see it paid off but that is no excuse to stick 100% of the cost on future generations.

 I'm OK with stuff being paid off over time as well but this debt to GDP nonsense is just to justify paying for stuff forever.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on February 10, 2020, 02:09:15 pm
1. Well if you are a certain age, you won't be around to see a lot of things get paid off but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid off.
If the Port Mann is amortized over 30 years I won't be around to see it paid off but that is no excuse to stick 100% of the cost on future generations.

2. I'm OK with stuff being paid off over time as well but this debt to GDP nonsense is just to justify paying for stuff forever.
1. Infrastructure is used over time, though.  Maybe you buy cars for cash but not everyone does.  It's maybe a fair idea to pay a bit every year so that those who pay tax in that year pay for something being used in that year.

2. Sort of, but it's also a useful stat in that it tells us what % of our wealth we are paying on.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 02:15:00 pm
1. Infrastructure is used over time, though.  Maybe you buy cars for cash but not everyone does.  It's maybe a fair idea to pay a bit every year so that those who pay tax in that year pay for something being used in that year.

2. Sort of, but it's also a useful stat in that it tells us what % of our wealth we are paying on.

It's not about paying cash for cars. If you buy a car on a loan, pay it off before you get rid of that car. Don't just add that debt to the debt you incur for its replacement.

It may be a useful stat but it isn't an excuse to go farther in debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on February 10, 2020, 02:23:24 pm
1. Infrastructure is used over time, though.

Infrastructure comes with 4 major cost components

1. Initial construction/installation cost
2. interest on monies borrowed to cover initial construction/installation
3. Annual recurring maintenance costs
4. Interest on monies borrowed to cover annual recurring maintenance costs

Hopefully we can all agree that #4 should be zero, or at maximum paid off within 12 months

I expect #2 & #3 are the largest cost items. While #3 may start off being a percentage of #1, over time I expect it will become larger than #1. Not all initial construction/installation costs will occur up front. If a major upgrade is made, say adding a lane to an existing highway, then that is really a new installation. If however a bridge span needs to be replaced because the initial span failed before expected lifetime then that is a maintenance cost. #3 should always be paid off withing 12 months.

That really leaves us with what lifetime should be used for infrastructure.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on February 10, 2020, 02:48:32 pm
1. It's not about paying cash for cars. If you buy a car on a loan, pay it off before you get rid of that car. 

2. It may be a useful stat but it isn't an excuse to go farther in debt.

1. The bridge is paid off at the end of its life just like the car.

2. A small amount of debt can be used as a tool... not a concern.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 10, 2020, 02:57:47 pm
1. The bridge is paid off at the end of its life just like the car.

2. A small amount of debt can be used as a tool... not a concern.

The bridge was just an example, in fact I don't know if there is a schedule to pay it off, I hope there is.

My point is, using debt to GDP as a parameter to justify borrowing means there is no intention to pay it off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 10, 2020, 04:21:50 pm
Why should I have to pay 100% of the costs of a bridge that will be around 50 years after I die ?

I'm ok with that stuff being paid off over time.

Well ok let's say you're deferring part costs to future generations who will be future users.  But the problem with this logic (not least being the other costs Impact pointed out) is that there's always going to be things needed to be built, new bridges and roads etc. that future generations will need to build.  So why not just pay current costs off ASAP to avoid needless interest payments and save money?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 10, 2020, 05:06:44 pm
However, as has been mentioned to you numerous times before, even in household finances, what's more important than your absolute debt is your ability to service your debt. If someone has millions of dollars tied up in assets, a $100,000 loan is nothing. When someone makes $25,000 per year, a $100,000 loan is massive.

When it comes to debt $1 is not the same as another $1.

You're right about that yes of course.

Our government's position is that what really matters is debt-to-GDP, therefore since Canada's nominal GDP is going up right now and we have a moderate deficit and debt-to-GDP is actually going down it means our debt is in good shape, which allows us to run deficits in a decently good economy.  Ok I agree it's good that we're not going to default on our loans and debt-to-GDP is going down.

The problem with their logic is that nominal GDP over the longterm is always rising, and since nominal GDP is especially always rising during good economic times that means they will always have an excuse to run deficits as long as debt growth doesn't outstrip GDP growth.  If the Liberals run into a recession they will run even higher deficits to stimulate the economy as virtually every modern western country does, as they should.  Therefore they will be running deficits during both good and bad economic times.  So when exactly do we EVER pay off/pay down our debt?  Under this Liberal plan, the answer is never.  This is an unsustainable economic plan, and it's also very wasteful since we will be paying more and more money towards interest payments, which will also compound over time & incur more & more waste.

What the Liberals should be doing is using these times of decent growth to run surpluses as Chretien/Martin did to pay down our debt, and during bad economic times run deficits to stimulate the economy, then rinse and repeat.  This is sustainable.  The real reason the Trudeau gov doesn't want to do this is political.  They want to give away money and fund all sorts of projects in order to buy votes.  They don't need to be sustainable in the longterm and can pass the debt to future generations because they can, all that matters is keeping their jobs, which is unethical.  And they trot out all this debt-to-GDP stuff to convince people they're actually being fiscally responsible.  They certainly don't want to raise taxes to actually pay for their projects since that would be political suicide.  The voters who support all this BS are equally or more to blame.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on February 10, 2020, 05:11:15 pm
Well ok let's say you're deferring part costs to future generations who will be future users.  But the problem with this logic (not least being the other costs Impact pointed out) is that there's always going to be things needed to be built, new bridges and roads etc. that future generations will need to build.  So why not just pay current costs off ASAP to avoid needless interest payments and save money?

Infrastructure costs may be incurred all at once, if they were all built around the same time... it might not make sense to take a big hit at one time.

But I am thinking we are already using more sense than politics allows.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 11:19:08 am
One of the things that pisses me off about politicians in general is that instead of being more upfront about the realities of continually increasing the debt so people might lower their expectations a bit, they are continually looking for excuses to borrow even more without paying any of it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 02:20:09 pm
One of the things that pisses me off about politicians in general is that instead of being more upfront about the realities of continually increasing the debt

The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 02:25:05 pm
The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.

Sure does, why else do we have 768 billion in debt which will just continue to grow and we won't pay any of it back because we just keep borrowing when times are good because it is all about debt to GDP and not reality. 26 billion a year in interest. Our entire 26 billion deficit next year will just be paying interest on what we already owe.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 12, 2020, 02:26:03 pm
The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.

Math can be difficult, especially when it's politically biased.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 04:19:48 pm
Sure does, why else do we have 768 billion in debt which will just continue to grow and we won't pay any of it back because we just keep borrowing when times are good because it is all about debt to GDP and not reality.

If you want to be outraged, it's important to realize that our debt is far more than $1T.  $768 is simply the net debt, which subtracts some liquid and semi liquid assets.

No one measures deficits or debts nominally anymore, because it's meaningless.

[/quote]26 billion a year in interest. Our entire 26 billion deficit next year will just be paying interest on what we already owe.
[/quote]

We used to pay much more....at a time like this when inflation is higher than interest in the debt, it makes little sense to pay down debt, or indeed even refrain from borrowing (within reason).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2020, 05:32:59 pm
The thing is, reality doesn't necessarily match up with your prognostications.

Never underestimate a Liberal government's (federal or provincial) willingness to buy off votes with other people's money.  Gerald Butts worked as Dalton McGuinty's principal advisor.  Straight outta the playbook.  Enough said.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2020, 05:34:55 pm
I wanted to call him Stinky Pete Von Buttfu*ker but I restrained myself!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 12, 2020, 05:37:47 pm
Never underestimate a Liberal government's (federal or provincial) willingness to buy off votes with other people's money.  Gerald Butts worked as Dalton McGuinty's principal advisor.  Straight outta the playbook.  Enough said.

Liberals are in fact not the primary drivers of Canada's current debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 06:28:38 pm
Liberals are in fact not the primary drivers of Canada's current debt.

The party in power is the only driver of federal debt, it makes the budget.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2020, 06:50:15 pm
Liberals are in fact not the primary drivers of Canada's current debt.

Technically true.  Good job Mulroney!  That guy was a dolt.  We he tried to tax for the goodies (GST) the voters threw him out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 07:30:25 pm
Technically true.  Good job Mulroney!  That guy was a dolt.  We he tried to tax for the goodies (GST) the voters threw him out.

If it is all Mulroney's fault, I guess no government ever needs to balance a budget again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on February 12, 2020, 08:06:06 pm
If it is all Mulroney's fault, I guess no government ever needs to balance a budget again.

Not all Mulroney's fault. Harper did even "better". I guess the term "fiscal conservative" has a different meaning when applied by... conservatives.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 09:52:49 pm
Not all Mulroney's fault. Harper did even "better". I guess the term "fiscal conservative" has a different meaning when applied by... conservatives.

Harper had the 2009 economic meltdown and the Afghan war to deal with, By the time he left office the budget was balanced again. The deficit declined every year after 2010 and in 2012 was the  same as the 2020 forecast deficit. Trudeau has had neither and has added more to the debt in his first four years than Harper did in his last four.  If you can fault Harper for anything it was lowering the GST but even that is 20/20 hindsight because it was done before 2008.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 12, 2020, 10:19:41 pm
caution: Conservative canard ahead!

Harper had the 2009 economic meltdown

not only did Canada enter the recession later than other G7 nations... its impact was milder and shorter than in other G7 countries, lasting but 7 months: Canada entered later; impact was mildest and shortest within G7 nations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 12, 2020, 10:58:34 pm
not only did Canada enter the recession later than other G7 nations... its impact was milder and shorter than in other G7 countries, lasting but 7 months: Canada entered later; impact was mildest and shortest within G7 nations.

True, but what's your point?

A Liberal can say well he had it a bit easier.  A Conservative can say well it was easier because of the CPC did the right things.  Wilbur could sit here and tell you that Harper was the greatest fiscal leader of the OECD/G7 because under his belt Canada weathered the storm better than virtually any other OECD/G7 country.  And if a Liberal gov were governing in 2008 you'd make the exact same argument.  But both you and waldo wouldn't really be right.

I think Chretien/Martin managed well fiscally and I think Harper did too.  Neither perfect by any means, or either always ethical, but did well.  Nobody can say i'm partisan for saying that.  They follow the basic Keynesian theory that you stimulate an economy during a recession and pay that debt back during the good times.  Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 12, 2020, 11:36:58 pm
caution: Conservative canard ahead!

not only did Canada enter the recession later than other G7 nations... its impact was milder and shorter than in other G7 countries, lasting but 7 months: Canada entered later; impact was mildest and shortest within G7 nations.

No doubt you would be giving a PM all the credit for that if they were a Liberal. Trudeau has had no recessions and no wars, just an economy that he claims is doing really well. So why do the deficits keep getting bigger every year?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on February 13, 2020, 12:52:59 am
True, but what's your point?

that the ever-go-to of Harper having to deal with "theGreatDepression" is a Conservative/CPC canard... Canada entered later, the impact was milder and the duration shorter (just 7 months) than that of any other G7 nation.

Wilbur could sit here and tell you that Harper was the greatest fiscal leader of the OECD/G7

waldo linkee dump:

=> 6 charts show Stephen Harper has the worst economic record of any Prime Minister since World War II (https://pressprogress.ca/6_charts_show_stephen_harper_has_the_worst_economic_record_of_any_prime_minister_since_world_war_ii/)

=> Harperís economic record the worst in Canadaís postwar history (https://spon.ca/harpers-economic-record-the-worst-in-canadas-postwar-history/2015/09/17/)

=> Harper, Serial Abuser of Power: The Evidence Compiled (https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/08/10/Harper-Abuses-of-Power-Final/)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on February 13, 2020, 10:24:48 am
If you can fault Harper for anything it was lowering the GST but even that is 20/20 hindsight because it was done before 2008.

How about his tens of billions of dollar gift to [foreign] corporations with lowering corporate taxes so they could export their wealth out of Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 11:32:56 am
But, but Harper.

Trudeau campaigned on a couple of modest 10 billion deficits returning to a balanced budget. The closest he has come is a 14.6 billion deficit last year.

Since elected he has added 50.8 billion to the debt. The government's own fall update is forecasting adding another 95.2 billion to the debt by the 2022/23 fiscal year with an additional 28 billion in borrowing for the two years after that. That will be an addition of 146 billion to the national debt by the end of the 2022/23 fiscal year and 174 billion forecast total by 2025. Nearly a 25% increase in the debt by 2023. He is on track to add more to the federal debt than any PM who has not had a major recession or war during their tenure.

Those are actual government figures, not from op eds

I hope waldo is a geezer like me because he will be paying interest on that for the rest of his life and so will his children and grand children.

I will state it again. If our federal debt doesn't change at all and interest rates remained the same, by the time they are 85 a child born today will see over 2.2 trillion dollars in interest spent on money borrowed before they were born.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on February 13, 2020, 12:08:35 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

Trudeau wonít do this though as it is more politically expedient not to raise taxes. 

But suddenly all the ďfiscal conservativesĒ would cheer a balanced budget?   Heck no...   I bet theyíd be on this forum ranting and raving about the tax burden, rather than their current deficit rants. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 12:21:20 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

Trudeau wonít do this though as it is more politically expedient not to raise taxes. 

But suddenly all the ďfiscal conservativesĒ would cheer a balanced budget?   Heck no...   I bet theyíd be on this forum ranting and raving about the tax burden, rather than their current deficit rants.

Revenues were up by 21 billion last year and the government still borrowed 14.6 billion. They spent 36 billion more than the year before.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on February 13, 2020, 01:59:45 pm
Revenues were up by 21 billion last year and the government still borrowed 14.6 billion. They spent 36 billion more than the year before.

That doesnít refute a thing I said. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on February 13, 2020, 02:35:13 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

Trudeau wonít do this though as it is more politically expedient not to raise taxes. 

But suddenly all the ďfiscal conservativesĒ would cheer a balanced budget?   Heck no...   I bet theyíd be on this forum ranting and raving about the tax burden, rather than their current deficit rants.

Harper was wrong to cut the GST%.  If he wanted to be fiscally conservative then cut spending and use that 2% to pay down the surplus at an even higher rate than Chretien did.

That said, Trudeau can't blame anyone for his own balance books, he can spend in any way he chooses and can tax in any way he chooses, he could have reversed that 2% GST cut as quickly as Harper got rid of it, he had a majority.
 
Actually if I had to choose i'd increase income taxes rather than increasing GST by 2% again.  GST & consumption taxes hurts the poor and rich alike.  But the burden on the middle and/or rich classes & exclude the poor.  I guess Trudeau and Morneau don't want to pay more taxes either.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 02:36:37 pm
That doesnít refute a thing I said.

But, but, Harper. He hasnít been PM for over four years. Bout time the new guy started taking some responsibility.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 13, 2020, 02:38:39 pm
2% GST = $14 Billion to federal revenues. 

Thanks Harper.

Add 3% and the deficit is gone. 

No it wouldnít because it is all about debt to GDP with these guys.
If the added tax is a drag on the economy and reduces GDP growth, it could have the opposite effect.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on February 14, 2020, 09:20:52 am
Since elected he has added 50.8 billion to the debt. The government's own fall update is forecasting adding another 95.2 billion to the debt by the 2022/23 fiscal year with an additional 28 billion in borrowing for the two years after that. That will be an addition of 146 billion to the national debt by the end of the 2022/23 fiscal year and 174 billion forecast total by 2025. Nearly a 25% increase in the debt by 2023. He is on track to add more to the federal debt than any PM who has not had a major recession or war during their tenure.

Mulroney added more debt than that during his first 6 years in office before the 1991 recession.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 14, 2020, 11:36:35 am
Mulroney added more debt than that during his first 6 years in office before the 1991 recession.

True but the eighties also had the highest global interest rates in history, we now have the lowest.. One result was Chretien and Martin made major changes in transfers putting more burden on provinces for things such as health care. Right now JT is on track to add about the same amount to the debt as his father, who had the 81 recession to contend with.

In his first four years, Mulroney added a bit less than PET in his last four. In his year as PM, Joe Clark actually added less than either of them did in any year they were in office. His minority government got turfed from office because he wanted to increase fuel taxes. Now we have a carbon tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on February 14, 2020, 08:15:59 pm
True but the eighties also had the highest global interest rates in history, we now have the lowest..

If interest rates go up, borrowing costs will increase.  Pension obligations will fall.  The effect at this point would be a wash.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on February 14, 2020, 08:57:15 pm
If interest rates go up, borrowing costs will increase.  Pension obligations will fall.  The effect at this point would be a wash.

If interests rates go up, government debt will go up, real estate prices will tank and people will be going bankrupt and walking away from their homes because they are mortgaged for more than they are worth. That's what happened in the eighties.

Pension plans will do well though.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 02, 2020, 01:16:51 pm
last fall, given election campaign conflicts, PM Trudeau asked former Progressive Conservative PM Joe Clark (as well as former PM Jean Chretien) to represent Canada at the UN General Assembly. And now PM Trudeau again reaches across the partisan divide to appoint former PM Joe Clark as special envoy for Canada's bid for a UN Security Council seat. 

a relatively recent pic of Joe Clark (itself a part of an interesting pic of living Prime Ministers who came together for John Turner's 90th birthday... those missing sent their best wishes/regrets for not attending - Harper, Mulroney, Campbell):

(https://i.imgur.com/azDeI3W.png)



 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on March 09, 2020, 07:30:25 pm
weakAndy and an assortment of ConMedia have been pumpin' the "Canada is broken" nonsense in recent weeks. No - Canada is not broken... thank you very much!

(https://i.imgur.com/fmcVxsV.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2020, 07:42:28 pm
Most indigenous protestors lighting fire to sh!t and blocking key infrastructure:  Canada
Most sub-national territories wanting to separate:  Canada
Most investors fleeing their country:  Canada

 ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 07:57:57 pm
Most indigenous protestors lighting fire to sh!t and blocking key infrastructure:  Canada
Most sub-national territories wanting to separate:  Canada
Most investors fleeing their country:  Canada

 ;D

Well for starters, have you ever heard of a country called India?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2020, 08:28:07 pm
Well for starters, have you ever heard of a country called India?

No.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 08:37:09 pm
No.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on March 09, 2020, 08:52:04 pm
I rest my case.

Your case is beyond rested... it's napping soundly.  I think Canada could be better ... and there are other places that are nice to live.  But most aren't as good IMO.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 08:57:54 pm
Your case is beyond rested... it's napping soundly.  I think Canada could be better ... and there are other places that are nice to live.  But most aren't as good IMO.

My point being that the problems suggested in the post I responded to are much more significant in many places beyond our borders.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on March 09, 2020, 09:57:13 pm
Yes and my twisted and shitty metaphor was supposed to clearly agree with you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 09, 2020, 10:08:31 pm
Guess we're going to get some more deficits this year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 09, 2020, 10:15:28 pm
My point being that the problems suggested in the post I responded to are much more significant in many places beyond our borders.

I've had the good fortune to have traveled abroad a number of times, including to India, and while I have had great experience's along the way, I have always felt grateful when the wheels touched down on Canadian soil.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on March 10, 2020, 10:09:18 am
The party in power is the only driver of federal debt, it makes the budget.
You're confusing deficit and debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on March 10, 2020, 01:53:51 pm
Guess we're going to get some more deficits this year.

Along with everyone else in the world. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 10, 2020, 02:16:07 pm
Along with everyone else in the world.

And so far it looks like we'll suffer less of a hit than say Italy who's economy was already in decline. And with Trump's continued stumbling and bumbling the US may get hurt bigly. Luckily state governors and certain ceo's such as of airlines are taking the bull by the horns to keep things moving as best they can.   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 10, 2020, 04:16:29 pm
You're confusing deficit and debt.
Itís debt, just not the debt. Permanent debt if donít plan on paying it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 10, 2020, 04:17:58 pm
Guess we're going to get some more deficits this year.

They were projecting 26 billion for this year, expect north of 40.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on March 11, 2020, 09:37:30 am
Itís debt, just not the debt. Permanent debt if donít plan on paying it back.
If you think governments should never run deficits, you have a tenuous grasp on macro economics (to say the least).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 11:20:43 am
If you think governments should never run deficits, you have a tenuous grasp on macro economics (to say the least).

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? My problem is borrowing with no intention of ever paying it back and depending on growth and inflation to make it sustainable. We have been borrowing for the last four years while the economy was expanding and now we will have to borrow a hell of a lot more as the economy retracts. The debt to GDP types are about to get a waker upper.


Keynesian economics say you save while times are good so you can afford to borrow when they are bad. The debt to GDP types say, screw that, let's just borrow all the time and the future will look after itself. Insha Alla.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on March 11, 2020, 01:16:20 pm
My problem is borrowing with no intention of ever paying it back and depending on growth and inflation to make it sustainable.

As long as the debt:GDP ratio is decreasing, it is being paid back. Not as fast as you may like, but dramatic changes tend to result in either higher taxes or cutting back on essential services. The "no intention of ever paying it back" is pure rhetoric.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 01:37:59 pm
As long as the debt:GDP ratio is decreasing, it is being paid back. Not as fast as you may like, but dramatic changes tend to result in either higher taxes or cutting back on essential services. The "no intention of ever paying it back" is pure rhetoric.

It won't be decreasing with government vastly increasing borrowing with the economy sinking due to  these crisis, it will be going up markedly. You can't borrow more money with your income going down and maintain the same dept to income ratio. What is so difficult for you to understand about that? You seem to think continually living beyond your means is some kind of right.
 
It isn't pure rhetoric, it means paying interest forever on money you spent long ago at interest rates you can't foresee.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 11, 2020, 08:06:56 pm
As long as the debt:GDP ratio is decreasing, it is being paid back.

 :D  LOL what??

No it isn't.  The only thing debt-to-GDP measures is the ability to potentially pay back debt, as well as ability to service current debt loan/interest payments.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 09:49:19 pm
:D  LOL what??

No it isn't.  The only thing debt-to-GDP measures is the ability to potentially pay back debt, as well as ability to service current debt loan/interest payments.

Yup, it just says if you can keep borrowing at the same rate as the economy is growing, or not. It has nothing to do with paying anything back
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on March 11, 2020, 11:46:36 pm
You guys really need to listen to economists and stop thinking you know everything:

https://twitter.com/lindsaytedds/status/1237877347916730368?s=21

https://twitter.com/kevinmilligan/status/1237380418808057856?s=21

They both echo what the PBO said last week.  Canadaís federal government is well placed fiscally.  There is no danger with this deficit or one more than twice the size.  It costs Ottawa so little to borrow money at the moment that itís actually irresponsible to not use the capacity.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 11, 2020, 11:53:21 pm
You guys really need to listen to economists and stop thinking you know everything:

https://twitter.com/lindsaytedds/status/1237877347916730368?s=21

https://twitter.com/kevinmilligan/status/1237380418808057856?s=21

They both echo what the PBO said last week.  Canadaís federal government is well placed fiscally.  There is no danger with this deficit or one more than twice the size.  It costs Ottawa so little to borrow money at the moment that itís actually irresponsible to not use the capacity.

Gawd.

The government will have to borrow tons because of this epidemic and its effect on the economy, it's just too bad it can't control its spending when times are good. Man I'm glad you guys don't have control over my personal finances, I would be up to my neck in hock for no other reason than I can afford the payments.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on March 12, 2020, 11:13:29 am
Gawd.

The government will have to borrow tons because of this epidemic and its effect on the economy, it's just too bad it can't control its spending when times are good. Man I'm glad you guys don't have control over my personal finances, I would be up to my neck in hock for no other reason than I can afford the payments.

Gawd Iím glad I donít think Iím an expert on everything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 11:33:37 am
Gawd Iím glad I donít think Iím an expert on everything.

You don't need to be an expert where just a little logic is required.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 02:32:48 pm
I guess some people don't understand that when you run up debt when you don't need to, you reduce your capacity to borrow when you do need to.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on March 12, 2020, 02:41:36 pm
I guess some people don't understand that when you run up debt when you don't need to, you reduce your capacity to borrow when you do need to.

Nobody said that. The question is what is the need, or more specifically what is the investment and the return on that investment?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 02:43:14 pm
Nobody said that. The question is what is the need, or more specifically what is the investment and the return on that investment?

There is zero return if you never pay it back, it just becomes a burden with no value.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on March 12, 2020, 03:01:23 pm
:D  LOL what??

No it isn't.  The only thing debt-to-GDP measures is the ability to potentially pay back debt, as well as ability to service current debt loan/interest payments.

Think about it this way:  if you're 12 and your only income comes from doing chores around the house, $200 is a big debt that will take forever to pay off.   If you're a grown-up with a decent job, $200 is easily manageable. Most of us accumulate and pay off $200 or more of credit card debt every month. The size of the debt relative to our income is what's most important.

Another thing to keep in mind is that government debt is actually being repaid (and renewed) all the time. Government debt is financed by issuing bonds that are repaid after a fixed duration.  Old bonds are continually being repaid, and new bonds are continually being reissued.

One danger is that people might decide that government bonds are not a good investment anymore.  This could happen if:

 -people are not sure your country will exist long enough to pay back their bonds. (Canada bonds should be fine, I think.)
 -people don't think your government will be able to pay back their bonds when they are due.
 -people decide that the interest rates you are offering are not attractive.  For example, if interest rates are low, or inflation is high, people might want to invest in something else.

But we do, you know, have to come up with the money to pay back the bonds that come due every year, and in a year when we are going to have big unplanned expenses and a big unexpected drop in revenue, that is going to be a headache.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 06:13:46 pm


But we do, you know, have to come up with the money to pay back the bonds that come due every year, and in a year when we are going to have big unplanned expenses and a big unexpected drop in revenue, that is going to be a headache.

 -k

Bingo. But you really aren't paying back anything, you are just rolling over debt at an interest rate you can't predict in the future. Like renewing a mortgage every five or so years, except you didn't pay off any of the principal, you just paid the interest.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 12, 2020, 07:45:13 pm
Bingo. But you really aren't paying back anything, you are just rolling over debt at an interest rate you can't predict in the future. Like renewing a mortgage every five or so years, except you didn't pay off any of the principal, you just paid the interest.

Not exactly how mortgages work, but yes of course the lender will structure the payments so the initial payments are mostly interest and small principal which will swap over the term of the mortgage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 07:53:27 pm
Not exactly how mortgages work, but yes of course the lender will structure the payments so the initial payments are mostly interest and small principal which will swap over the term of the mortgage.

When you pay off a mortgage, the portion of the payment paying interest gradually declines and the portion going on principal increases as you pay off the principal. The debt to GDP con means you never pay off any of the principal and all of your payment goes into paying interest. Every five years you have to renew at the going interest rate. Government bonds also have to be turned over at specified periods. Back in the eighties, my mortgage went from 9% to 18% when I renewed. Fortunately I could handle it as could many at the time because their debt load was lower. If interest rates went to 5% today, our economy would collapse because most people couldn't absorb the increase and stay solvent.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 12, 2020, 08:48:22 pm
Think about it this way:  if you're 12 and your only income comes from doing chores around the house, $200 is a big debt that will take forever to pay off.   If you're a grown-up with a decent job, $200 is easily manageable. Most of us accumulate and pay off $200 or more of credit card debt every month. The size of the debt relative to our income is what's most important.

Yes i'm well aware what debt-to-gdp means.  It has its use.  But just because a country's debt-to-gdp is shrinking while still running deficits that doesn't mean you're being fiscally responsible.  Your debt-to-gdp is supposed to shrink during good economic times because your gdp is going to be doing well and your need for debt is minimal.  My point is now is the time to pay down the debt a bit, we just borrowed a crapload for years to recover from the "great recession".  And when bad times hit again, like now, we can responsible pour in the deficit to stimulate the economy and be in a sounder financial position.  If we saved those 20 billion deficits up and instead added them to the billions we'll be putting out for the massive sh!t-kicking the TSX is taking right now we'd be much better off.

Our economy is in desperate shape.  Alberta is being gutted and I don't think its coming back, the TSX lost 12% of its total value today IN ONE DAY, that's 12% of the entire Canadian economy evaporated.  This is when you run deficits.  Chretien/Martin knew it.  Kevin Milligan can suck my d!ck.

I'm not going to argue with these Liberal a$$-lickers, if Trudeau were running surpluses they'd defend that too.  Fuck these partisan sh!t-f*ckers.  I hate partisans.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 12, 2020, 09:01:51 pm
Quote
Think about it this way:  if you're 12 and your only income comes from doing chores around the house, $200 is a big debt that will take forever to pay off.   If you're a grown-up with a decent job, $200 is easily manageable. Most of us accumulate and pay off $200 or more of credit card debt every month. The size of the debt relative to our income is what's most important.

And if that kid takes a 20% cut in what he is making from doing the chores, he still owes $200.

In a recession, revenues (GDP) go down while deficits and debt go way up because not only does government not have the revenues but it has to spend much more to stimulate the economy. That's something these debt to GDP shills either don't understand or care about.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: ?Impact on March 13, 2020, 08:34:29 am
I'm not going to argue with these Liberal a$$-lickers, if Trudeau were running surpluses they'd defend that too.  **** these partisan sh!t-f*ckers.  I hate partisans.

Interesting statement, I will have to think on that a bit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on March 13, 2020, 10:16:30 am
Interesting statement, I will have to think on that a bit.

Except for the last paragraph and the last line of the previous paragraph, I agree with Covid. 100%.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on March 13, 2020, 11:20:31 am
Sophie Trudeau has COVID-19 - the real thing.
Justin is self-isolating with her - should he maybe be away from her instead?

I don't know what the run on toilet paper is about - its viral pneumonia, not stomach flu.

I do believe that all avoidance of groups of people is wise. I especially think it's wise to avoid air travel - big, enclosed silver sky tubes recirculating viruses.

I use alcohol to clean all surfaces I touch, carry a small spray bottle & tissues with me.

Senior with existing respiratory issues ... so I mostly stay home.  Fine with me. It's still cold out.  Lol
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 13, 2020, 11:24:09 am
I use alcohol to clean all surfaces I touch, carry a small spray bottle & tissues with me.

Senior with existing respiratory issues ... so I mostly stay home.  Fine with me. It's still cold out.  Lol

A lot of the people who post on here and MLW seem to be older retired folks.  I'm not at that age, so I worry about you guys and other retirees I know.  Stay well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on March 13, 2020, 12:07:43 pm
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on March 13, 2020, 12:13:48 pm
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k

I listened to that as well and it seemed like a breath of fresh air (so to speak) compared to what we've heard from the WH.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 13, 2020, 12:33:28 pm
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k

I haven't seen it yet, but he made a good speech concerning the aboriginal blockades too.  I'm glad our leader has some leadership qualities.  Haven't watched Trumps speech,  but he's never been a good speaker.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on March 14, 2020, 02:04:58 pm
A lot of the people who post on here and MLW seem to be older retired folks.  I'm not at that age, so I worry about you guys and other retirees I know.  Stay well.

That's very nice of you!
I can stay home.
I worry about the people who have to work, especially direct customer service.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on March 18, 2020, 08:43:34 am
Just watched some of Justin's presser at the cottage.  Although I obviously am not a fan of his, to say the least, I think his speech hit all the right notes.   It's reassuring to have a government that puts science first.

 -k

As was pointed out, the leaders we have are not used to the responsibilities, the thinking and the delegation and other skills you need to deal with something this huge.

I am cutting all of them slack. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 01, 2020, 07:59:09 pm
Last week, if you recall, the CPC said that the Liberals were trying to grab power, with temporary measures that were seen as overreach.

This week, the Conservatives are all too happy to point out that Parliament needs to be recalled because the bill that was passed, in fact isn't broad enough.  It's almost as if the original bill was the one....

I hate Conservatives.  Never again will I vote Conservative.  This crisis is beyond politics, and they are, beyond petty.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 01, 2020, 10:15:21 pm
Last week, if you recall, the CPC said that the Liberals were trying to grab power, with temporary measures that were seen as overreach.

This week, the Conservatives are all too happy to point out that Parliament needs to be recalled because the bill that was passed, in fact isn't broad enough.  It's almost as if the original bill was the one....

Interesting, I thought they had put in for September for unlimited budget power, but I guess that was just a proposal.  I'd be ok with September.  Or at least like 3 months, and then extend it if need be.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 02, 2020, 01:16:31 am
Interesting, I thought they had put in for September for unlimited budget power, but I guess that was just a proposal.  I'd be ok with September.  Or at least like 3 months, and then extend it if need be.

The powers they ended up with were very narrow And until June.  Itís all the Conservatives would agree to.  The Bloc was willing to go with all spending and taxing power until September.  Now the Conservatives are blaming the government for writing a narrow bill.  You canít make it up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on April 02, 2020, 05:37:07 pm
Last week, if you recall, the CPC said that the Liberals were trying to grab power, with temporary measures that were seen as overreach.

This week, the Conservatives are all too happy to point out that Parliament needs to be recalled because the bill that was passed, in fact isn't broad enough.  It's almost as if the original bill was the one....

I hate Conservatives.  Never again will I vote Conservative.  This crisis is beyond politics, and they are, beyond petty.

and the usual suspects here wigged out over "it"... it being a draft starting point for review/negotiation between parties; one that was purposely leaked to - surprise, surprise... the G&M's azzhole Fife. It wasn't worth my interest to bother countering the nonsense... until now, as a handy 15 tweet threadreader thread was put together to summarize all the underhanded Scheer/CPC bullshyte:

(https://i.imgur.com/PThqGE3.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 02, 2020, 06:35:35 pm
https://twitter.com/RodAVanier/status/1245785512713113600?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 02, 2020, 09:24:06 pm
https://twitter.com/RodAVanier/status/1245785512713113600?s=20

Ouch..   that's a harsh thing to say... not that it's wrong though....   The CPC tried playing politics with this.  I'm glad some politicians are willing to call out that BS.   This is going to damage the CPC, and rightfully so...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 07, 2020, 09:50:26 pm
It took 2 weeks for the capitalist system that we live within to completely break down and be useless to nearly all of us.  Groceries might be the only exception.

The entire country, in fact even our friends to the south, have turned to socialism to bail us all out and keep us from being completely destitute. 

I hope the pendulum will swing left in a big way after the pandemic blows over. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 07, 2020, 10:37:22 pm
It took 2 weeks for the capitalist system that we live within to completely break down and be useless to nearly all of us.  Groceries might be the only exception.

How so?  Virtually all necessities are still available and supply chains have been surprisingly resilient.  Grocery stores, gas stations, restaurants, news media etc are still functioning.

Quote
The entire country, in fact even our friends to the south, have turned to socialism to bail us all out and keep us from being completely destitute.

Government provides a safety net when things hit the sh!tter.  I'm thankful they can help the people who need it now, and have helped stabilize markets a bit.

Quote
I hope the pendulum will swing left in a big way after the pandemic blows over.

In what way specifically?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 08, 2020, 01:23:45 am
How so?

Have you not noticed that virtually every business in the country has shut down except for the ones that the government deems “essential”?   

Quote
Virtually all necessities are still available and supply chains have been surprisingly resilient.  Grocery stores, gas stations, restaurants, news media etc are still functioning.

Because gov’t deems them essential. 

Quote
Government provides a safety net when things hit the sh!tter.

So you’re a socialist who pretends to be a free market capitalist when it suits you.


Quote
I'm thankful they can help the people who need it now, and have helped stabilize markets a bit.

Yeah...  no sh!t... the social safety net.

Quote
In what way specifically?

Government needs to nationalize industries like all healthcare, research into pharmaceuticals, and energy.    Alberta’s private electric companies are a failure compared to BC’s crown corp for hydro-electric.   

Commercial land ownership should fall to the provinces, so in the event of another disaster they can forgive rents. 

Universities and private industry needs to be forced to research bio-tech to alleviate pandemics.   

The manufacture of personal safety devices needs to be nationalized so the Americans can’t hold us hostage.  Drug patents need to be curtailed. 

The pandemic response was a guaranteed income for everyone.  There needs to be a national Guaranteed Monthly Income all the time so that when a disaster occurs it can simply be scaled up instead of having to re-invent ways to pay people, which we did anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 12:04:39 pm
Have you not noticed that virtually every business in the country has shut down except for the ones that the government deems ďessentialĒ?   

Because govít deems them essential.

So government deserves a pat on the back for feeding humanity because they didn't force grocery stores to all close?

Quote
So youíre a socialist who pretends to be a free market capitalist when it suits you.

I'm not nor have I ever been a free-market capitalist.  But I am a capitalist, and I believe in a social safety net too.  That's what we have now, it's been working.

Quote
Government needs to nationalize industries like all healthcare, research into pharmaceuticals, and energy.

Why?

Quote
Albertaís private electric companies are a failure compared to BCís crown corp for hydro-electric.

Go look at what the Ontario government has done to their hydro system the last 20 years.  I really don't care if it's private or public as long as it's run well and it's affordable.

Quote
Commercial land ownership should fall to the provinces, so in the event of another disaster they can forgive rents. 

The provinces are already broke, I don't see how they're going to be able to afford to buy up all commercial land.  Then they have to administer it.

Quote
Universities and private industry needs to be forced to research bio-tech to alleviate pandemics.   

There's plenty of motivation for private companies to research biotech because any company that finds a vaccine for COVID will be ridiculously wealthy.  But we also should have government research into diseases too, which we have.

Quote
The manufacture of personal safety devices needs to be nationalized so the Americans canít hold us hostage.  Drug patents need to be curtailed.

We do need some way to ensure that Canada is able to manufacture such equipment in an emergency.  Many Canadian companies have volunteered to produce them for us.  We also need to create stockpiles so this doesn't happen again.

Quote
The pandemic response was a guaranteed income for everyone.  There needs to be a national Guaranteed Monthly Income all the time so that when a disaster occurs it can simply be scaled up instead of having to re-invent ways to pay people, which we did anyway.

Maybe.  On the other hand we basically scaled up the EI program and so far so good.  Masses of people haven't been going homeless or starving.  I guess we'll see what comes out of this.  I don't think we need to re-invent the economy and nationalize entire industries because of a once-in-a-century emergency.  Maybe we just need to improve our emergency responses and infrastructure.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 08, 2020, 06:50:10 pm
I think that went way over your head. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 08:20:04 pm
It took 2 weeks for the capitalist system that we live within to completely break down and be useless to nearly all of us.  Groceries might be the only exception.

...

Have you not noticed that virtually every business in the country has shut down except for the ones that the government deems ďessentialĒ?   

So to summarize your argument: capitalism is a failure, and the evidence is that all the businesses that the government forced to shut down are now shut down?

...

...

I can only imagine that sounded better in your head.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 08:26:12 pm
I think that went way over your head.

That's not an argument.  Tell me why it went over my head.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2020, 08:30:04 pm
That's not an argument.  Tell me why it went over my head.

He probably hasn't got enough time to waste to do that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 08:45:56 pm
He probably hasn't got enough time to waste to do that.

Why do you hate me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O8xCCS0Aac
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2020, 09:14:05 pm
Why do you hate me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O8xCCS0Aac

I don't, otherwise I wouldn't reply/quote.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 08, 2020, 09:20:42 pm
...

So to summarize your argument: capitalism is a failure, and the evidence is that all the businesses that the government forced to shut down are now shut down?

...

...

I can only imagine that sounded better in your head.

 -k

Fair enough...  I may not have explained it as well as I could have... 

What is keeping businesses afloat?  Money from govít.  Whatís keeping people from losing everything?  Government programs, money from government, forgiveness of hydro bills.

You think this is the free market at its best?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on April 08, 2020, 09:44:27 pm
Fair enough...  I may not have explained it as well as I could have... 

What is keeping businesses afloat?  Money from govít.  Whatís keeping people from losing everything?  Government programs, money from government, forgiveness of hydro bills.

You think this is the free market at its best?

I don't think anybody here is advocating for a purely laissez-faire dog-eat-dog let 'em die system. It seems like you're jousting with a straw man.

But yes, our government is going to be providing a lot of people and businesses with significant help for the next several years.

And the main reason our government is able to provide such substantial aid right now is that our very successful capitalist economy has provided our country with the financial capability to do so.

People are willing to lend our government money because they're confident that it'll be paid back.  Our government's ability to borrow represents confidence in our economic system. In short, our government's ability to provide aid during this crisis is not evidence that capitalism has failed, it is proof that capitalism has worked well for us.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 10:06:55 pm
I don't, otherwise I wouldn't reply/quote.

You love me?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 08, 2020, 10:13:27 pm
You love me?

I'm a fan of humanity. Don't push your luck.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 08, 2020, 10:14:02 pm
I don't think anybody here is advocating for a purely laissez-faire dog-eat-dog let 'em die system. It seems like you're jousting with a straw man.

But yes, our government is going to be providing a lot of people and businesses with significant help for the next several years.

And the main reason our government is able to provide such substantial aid right now is that our very successful capitalist economy has provided our country with the financial capability to do so.

People are willing to lend our government money because they're confident that it'll be paid back.  Our government's ability to borrow represents confidence in our economic system. In short, our government's ability to provide aid during this crisis is not evidence that capitalism has failed, it is proof that capitalism has worked well for us.

 -k

Exactly.  Capitalism and government work together.  You can't have too much of either or sh!t hits the fan.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 09, 2020, 07:21:36 pm
Exactly.  Capitalism and government work together.  You can't have too much of either or sh!t hits the fan.

As someone benefiting immensely from this (I've probably made about 30K profit at work this week alone) I can tell you that we're still far too one sided.  We need more government in our lives.  This crisis proves it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 07:33:34 pm
As someone benefiting immensely from this (I've probably made about 30K profit at work this week alone) I can tell you that we're still far too one sided.  We need more government in our lives.  This crisis proves it.

Does it? Where is the government's money going to come from with revenues in the tank? Who will lend it money if people have no money to lend?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 09, 2020, 07:41:19 pm
Does it? Where is the government's money going to come from with revenues in the tank? Who will lend it money if people have no money to lend?

The govít wonít get money while itís like this.  No one has said otherwise.  Stop creating straw-men to argue against. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 07:47:07 pm
The govít wonít get money while itís like this.  No one has said otherwise.  Stop creating straw-men to argue against.

What straw man? Governments need revenues to pay bills and convince lenders they are worth the risk. Governments do not create wealth, they just redistribute it. I'm not anti government but would like you guys to explain why we need more government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 09, 2020, 07:49:53 pm
What straw man? Governments need revenues to pay bills and convince lenders they are worth the risk. Governments do not create wealth, they just redistribute it. I'm not anti government but would like you guys to explain why we need more government.

Governments DO have revenues...   we were shorting ourselves by not taxing enough.  The fact that the crisis has dried up revenues is obvious and foreseeable.  And no one has said otherwise.  You are arguing as if someone has said otherwise.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 09, 2020, 08:02:52 pm
As someone benefiting immensely from this (I've probably made about 30K profit at work this week alone) I can tell you that we're still far too one sided.  We need more government in our lives.  This crisis proves it.

But that's too vague.  It all depends on the exact nature of what the "more government" is.  Better government in place to deal with pandemic emergencies?  Ok sounds good.  More research into diseases?  Ok sounds good.  But squid wants to use this crisis as an excuse to nationalize key sectors of the economy.

This crisis also proves that everyone should have a month or 2 of income in savings in case some emergency likes this happens so they can pay for food and bills if they lose all income.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:09:44 pm
Governments DO have revenues...   we were shorting ourselves by not taxing enough.  The fact that the crisis has dried up revenues is obvious and foreseeable.  And no one has said otherwise.  You are arguing as if someone has said otherwise.

Revenues from what? Have you seen the latest unemployment figures? You are going to get the economy back on track by taxing fewer people and businesses even more? I don't know where this is going to end other than the national debt could easily double in the next few years and we were already borrowing to pay interest on what we already owed. It needs to be done but the result isn't going to be pretty and we may never dig our way out of the hole to where we were when this began. They're estimating a 170 billion deficit this year, that's a 25% increase in the debt in one year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:17:56 pm
I got an interesting email from our financial advisor yesterday. They advised selling some shares we have in a US investment bank and putting it into gold shares. Gold has never been a part of their model portfolio in the past so this is a major change for them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 09, 2020, 08:19:00 pm
Revenues from what? Have you seen the latest unemployment figures? You are going to get the economy back on track by taxing fewer people and businesses even more? I don't know where this is going to end other than the national debt could easily double in the next few years and we were already borrowing to pay interest on what we already owed. It needs to be done but the result isn't going to be pretty and we may never dig our way out of the hole to where we were when this began. They're estimating a 170 billion deficit this year, that's a 25% increase in the debt in one year.

Jesus man....   did I not just say in the post you responded to that no one is saying that revenues havenít gone off a cliff due to the crisis...????
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:19:48 pm
Jesus man....   did I not just say in the post you responded to that no one is saying that revenues havenít gone off a cliff due to the crisis...????

So why do we need more government?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 09, 2020, 08:38:02 pm
But that's too vague.  It all depends on the exact nature of what the "more government" is.  Better government in place to deal with pandemic emergencies?  Ok sounds good.  More research into diseases?  Ok sounds good.  But squid wants to use this crisis as an excuse to nationalize key sectors of the economy.

This crisis also proves that everyone should have a month or 2 of income in savings in case some emergency likes this happens so they can pay for food and bills if they lose all income.

I'm talking about taxing so that we can have the society most Canadians seem to want. Better funded health with pharma-care et al, an already established emergency benefit system, etc, etc. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 08:56:43 pm
I'm talking about taxing so that we can have the society most Canadians seem to want. Better funded health with pharma-care et al, an already established emergency benefit system, etc, etc.

Even if you were taxing for all that stuff before this happened, you can't do it now. The only source is borrowed money because the tax revenues have disappeared and so has the means to impose them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 09, 2020, 09:02:53 pm
Well squid, where is the money going to come from, taxing millions of unemployed and bankrupt businesses?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 09, 2020, 10:02:17 pm
I'm talking about taxing so that we can have the society most Canadians seem to want. Better funded health with pharma-care et al, an already established emergency benefit system, etc, etc.

My province definitely needs more healthcare funding, our system is a joke.  My provincial government has also been incompetent the last 20 years, which is sad.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: BC_cheque on April 09, 2020, 10:52:54 pm
Trudea and Morneau are trying desperately to keep things going and I commend their efforts, but I think they've been way too generous with businesses.

They've expanded the 75% subsidy (to a max 58K salary) so far that pretty much every CCPC can get it whether or not they actually need it. 

They've asked *really nicely* to please hire back laid off employees, but the funds will go to any company that can show a loss within their criteria, even if they haven't laid off anyone. 

But but but... now they won't have to.   ::)

It's pretty circular logic to me.  Instead of giving it to companies 'in case' they need it, I think the money would be hella lot better spent subsidizing people who actually lose their jobs at a 75-80% rate instead of 55% EI. 

If the job losses are short term, they employees can come back.  If they're long term losses, the company will need regrouping at which time down the road, the government can spend the money stimulating businesses to hire people back and/or start new businesses.

Too many companies are going to get a jackpot for no reason while someone who lost their 100K/year job is going to be getting 2k/month.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Liberals are Conservatives who go to gay parades.  I'm not impressed.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 11, 2020, 01:53:04 am
Wage subsidies were the wrong way to go...   greedy businesses are now cutting wages.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/federal-wage-subsidy-pay-cuts_ca_5e90b492c5b68ee900d169f1?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage

The government should have just stuck with better/quicker EI.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 11, 2020, 12:22:52 pm
Governments DO have revenues...   we were shorting ourselves by not taxing enough.  The fact that the crisis has dried up revenues is obvious and foreseeable.  And no one has said otherwise.  You are arguing as if someone has said otherwise.

Their revenues come from the economy. The economy is in the tank so what or who are you going to tax. You can't get blood out of a stone remember.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 14, 2020, 04:29:47 pm
Dumb f*ck Scheer has been defending his plane ride all day.  Trudeau has been defending himself too when he visited his family in QC.  F*ck these hypocrities. Elizabeth May?  Who knows what that crazy loon has been doing today, nobody seems to care.

Nice to know there's 2 separate rules for the elitist a-holes and us plebes.  I'm not as mad as I seem given my use of profanity...I just like using profanity!

For those who want to chastise Scheer but defend Trudeau (or the other way around), please voice your opinion here so we can have your partisanship and hypocrisy on record yet again.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 19, 2020, 12:57:27 pm
Some great points, especially about for-profit pharmaceuticals, and how capitalism is hurting the response to this pandemic.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/03/20/capitalism-is-an-incubator-for-pandemics-socialism-is-the-solution/

Quote
Currently, multiple for-profit companies are attempting to test (sometimes new, sometimes previously rejected and now recycled) therapies to see if they can treat or prevent COVID-19. While there are attempts to produce a COVID-19 vaccine, this vaccine would not be ready for testing in human trials for a few months according to Peter Marks, the director of the FDAís Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research. Yet even last week, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar refused to guarantee a newly developed coronavirus vaccine would be affordable to all stating, ďwe canít control that price because we need the private sector to invest.Ē The statement is ironic to say the least coming from the former top lobbyist to Eli Lilly who served at a time when the companyís drug prices went up significantly.

Canada should nationalize pharmaceutical research, development and production. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on April 19, 2020, 01:02:40 pm
Canada should nationalize pharmaceutical research, development and production.

This is one of those topics that's useless without some experts to help discuss.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 19, 2020, 01:45:02 pm
This is one of those topics that's useless without some experts to help discuss.

Youíre wrong of course.  People can inform themselves and have thoughtful opinions on the subject.

Interesting take on pharmaís abandoning research for medications that arenít profitable.

https://jacobinmag.com/2013/06/socialize-big-pharma

A good podcast by Sam Harris that touches on the subject.
https://samharris.org/podcasts/166-plague-years/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 19, 2020, 04:56:37 pm
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/03/20/capitalism-is-an-incubator-for-pandemics-socialism-is-the-solution/

Canada should nationalize pharmaceutical research, development and production.

No they shouldn't.  Then you create a government monopoly.  Why would you do that?  What they should do is keep private research but also have well-funded national research too, best of both worlds and lots of competition to innovate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 05:07:01 pm
No they shouldn't.  Then you create a government monopoly.  Why would you do that?  What they should do is keep private research but also have well-funded national research too, best of both worlds and lots of competition to innovate.

You'd be well advised to take a look at healthcare south of the border and you' probably change your mind.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 19, 2020, 05:12:47 pm
You'd be well advised to take a look at healthcare south of the border and you' probably change your mind.

Show me a country that has nationalized it's pharmaceutical industry and has had great success and innovation and maybe i'd change my mind.  These things need to be decided based on evidence, and if it hasn't been done before I don't really want my country to be the guinea pig.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 05:16:37 pm
Show me a country that has nationalized it's pharmaceutical industry and has had great success and innovation and maybe i'd change my mind.  These things need to be decided based on evidence, and if it hasn't been done before I don't really want my country to be the guinea pig.

So you don't mind if, heaven forbid you come down with a disease that requires a pill 4 times a day that costs a hundred bucks each and you end up losing your house. Donald Trump would welcome your approach.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 19, 2020, 07:15:51 pm
So you don't mind if, heaven forbid you come down with a disease that requires a pill 4 times a day that costs a hundred bucks each and you end up losing your house. Donald Trump would welcome your approach.

My province has a pharmacare plan for people that can't afford their medications, so that won't happen.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 07:17:21 pm
My province has a pharmacare plan for people that can't afford their medications, so that won't happen.

I think you just contradicted yourself.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 19, 2020, 07:42:17 pm
I think you just contradicted yourself.

I think you have basic reading comprehension issues.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 08:00:05 pm
I think you have basic reading comprehension issues.

You on the one hand criticize countries as to having socialized drug plans and then brag about having exactly that. Perhaps it's your thinking skills that are loacking.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 19, 2020, 08:03:08 pm
You on the one hand criticize countries as to having socialized drug plans and then brag about having exactly that. Perhaps it's your thinking skills that are loacking.



Where did he criticize that? He was critical of nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry, not pharmacare.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 19, 2020, 08:04:25 pm
You on the one hand criticize countries as to having socialized drug plans and then brag about having exactly that. Perhaps it's your thinking skills that are loacking.

I've never said I was against drug care for low incomes or people in need.  I've said in the past that i'm not for universal pharmacare.  Don't you think rich people should pay for their meds or for an insurance plan?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 08:20:51 pm
I've never said I was against drug care for low incomes or people in need.  I've said in the past that i'm not for universal pharmacare.  Don't you think rich people should pay for their meds or for an insurance plan?

Rich people pay more tax than poor people but all in all that keeps a universal health care system afloat and ours is enviable compared to what poor folks face in the US, for instance. If we can include pharmaceuticals in that such as you seem to be enjoying then so much the better. It also brings down costs because governments can buy in bulk.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on April 19, 2020, 09:10:21 pm
I've never said I was against drug care for low incomes or people in need.  I've said in the past that i'm not for universal pharmacare.  Don't you think rich people should pay for their meds or for an insurance plan?


In BC your pharmacare deductible is determined from the taxable income on your past two years income tax returns.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 19, 2020, 09:16:38 pm
Rich people pay more tax than poor people but all in all that keeps a universal health care system afloat and ours is enviable compared to what poor folks face in the US, for instance. If we can include pharmaceuticals in that such as you seem to be enjoying then so much the better. It also brings down costs because governments can buy in bulk.

What problem are you trying to solve?  Is there a problem of people not being able to afford medication?  I just don't see it.  We already have systems in place for th is for people who have lower incomes etc.

We'd have to raise taxes and then pay for the bureaucracies to administer it.  Again, I don't see enough of a problem here to justify it.  We aren't the U.S.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on April 19, 2020, 09:26:11 pm
What problem are you trying to solve?  Is there a problem of people not being able to afford medication?  I just don't see it.  We already have systems in place for th is for people who have lower incomes etc.

We'd have to raise taxes and then pay for the bureaucracies to administer it.  Again, I don't see enough of a problem here to justify it.  We aren't the U.S.

Thankfully we are not the US. We tend to put the care of our people ahead of corporations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 19, 2020, 10:33:42 pm
Thankfully we are not the US. We tend to put the care of our people ahead of corporations.

I agree.  Everyone should be able to access healthcare without getting in financial trouble. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on April 20, 2020, 12:15:41 am
I agree.  Everyone should be able to access healthcare without getting in financial trouble.
Sounds just like from each according to their ability and to each according to their need. I don't understand what there isn't to get either.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on April 20, 2020, 03:37:53 am
https://bigthink.com/dangerous-ideas/15-nationalize-drug-development

Quote
"What's often turned out to be the case is that they report only part of their results,Ē says Baker.  A recent study of drug trials found that industry-funded trials reported positive outcomes 85 percent of the time, while government-funded trails had similar results only 50 percent of the time.

ďThe alternative I'm suggesting is you have the public pick up the full cost of research,Ē says Baker. ďThe federal government already spends about $30 billion a year on biomedical research through the National Institutes of Health,Ē he says, ďso it's not unprecedented that the government spend on biomedical research.Ē



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 20, 2020, 10:43:40 am
What problem are you trying to solve?  Is there a problem of people not being able to afford medication?  I just don't see it.  We already have systems in place for th is for people who have lower incomes etc.

We'd have to raise taxes and then pay for the bureaucracies to administer it.  Again, I don't see enough of a problem here to justify it.  We aren't the U.S.

I would counter this by pointing out people who work, and have something like HIV - the costs can be catastrophic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on April 20, 2020, 06:22:56 pm
I would counter this by pointing out people who work, and have something like HIV - the costs can be catastrophic.

I don't understand your point here.

People who are ill and can't work can be covered by their provincial medication insurance plans, with a small deductible usually for people on low or no incomes.  It's designed so people without much money can afford any medications or medical equipment they may need.  They'll get income to live via government social assistance, and of course necessary healthcare access paid for by provincial universal healthcare.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on April 21, 2020, 11:19:57 am
I don't understand your point here.

There are people who work and can't afford their medication.  Every province should have, at the very least, a comprehensive catastrophic drug program.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 04, 2020, 04:21:09 pm
I wonder what this year's budget will look like once the year is done.  Foretasted government revenues are obviously in the sh!tter due to COVID, and government expenditures are obviously skyrocketing.  It will be interesting to see what this COVID-19 will end up costing our government, and our overall economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 04, 2020, 05:42:38 pm
I wonder what this year's budget will look like once the year is done.  Foretasted government revenues are obviously in the sh!tter due to COVID, and government expenditures are obviously skyrocketing.  It will be interesting to see what this COVID-19 will end up costing our government, and our overall economy.

PBO said 252 billion deficit the other day, don't know what it used for revenue projections.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 04, 2020, 06:00:48 pm
PBO said 252 billion deficit the other day, don't know what it used for revenue projections.

Well that's a lot.  I assume it will be higher.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 09:03:47 pm
Yikes, where will it end.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:07:22 pm
I've always estimated a trillion dollars for this event. I stand by that.  That will presumably cost the federal treasury about $10B per year for the next 30 years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:09:50 pm
Scratch that - it will cost absolutely nothing:

"We anticipate that debt charges will not go up, which is surprising and counterintuitive," Giroux said. "Interest rates are so much lower than what we anticipated them to be just two or three months ago. It doesn't cost that much to finance that growing debt.

"Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768

Don't be a crayon economist.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:11:24 pm
There are people who work and can't afford their medication.  Every province should have, at the very least, a comprehensive catastrophic drug program.

My employee is on a medication for MS. It would cost him over $1600 a month. That's more than half of his after tax salary for the month. Because of Manitoba's prescription drug program, he only has to pay about a month's worth of costs every year.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 10:32:56 pm
Scratch that - it will cost absolutely nothing:

"We anticipate that debt charges will not go up, which is surprising and counterintuitive," Giroux said. "Interest rates are so much lower than what we anticipated them to be just two or three months ago. It doesn't cost that much to finance that growing debt.

"Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768

Don't be a crayon economist.

We will be very lucky if the combined federal and provincial debt to GDP is less than 100% by the end of the year.

If I were a foreign investor looking to buy Canadian debt, the first thing I would think of is the future of the currency. If they are only going to pay 1% interest and I flgure the Canadian dollar will devalue by 5%, I will be 4% better off putting my money under my mattress.

What will more likely happen is the BoC will lend the money to the government and then buy back the debt, in other words print money. That is what the US has been doing since 2009. Problem is, we aren't the worlds reserve currency.

Were you even alive in 1993 and if so, why weren't you paying attention.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 10:50:34 pm
We will be very lucky if the combined federal and provincial debt to GDP is less than 100% by the end of the year.

So, we'll be more like Japan was pre COVID - oh well.

Quote
If I were a foreign investor looking to buy Canadian debt, the first thing I would think of is the future of the currency. If they are only going to pay 1% interest and I flgure the Canadian dollar will devalue by 5%, I will be 4% better off putting my money under my mattress.

We don't really want our debt being substantially foreign held.

Quote
What will more likely happen is the BoC will lend the money to the government and then buy back the debt, in other words print money. That is what the US has been doing since 2009. Problem is, we aren't the worlds reserve currency.

You keep looking for problems that don't exist. If Canada were taking on a trillion dollar liability, and no one else was, it would be a different matter.  Our package so far is small in comparison to a lot of other advanced countries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 10:56:02 pm
So, we'll be more like Japan was pre COVID - oh well.

We don't really want our debt being substantially foreign held.

You keep looking for problems that don't exist. If Canada were taking on a trillion dollar liability, and no one else was, it would be a different matter.  Our package so far is small in comparison to a lot of other advanced countries.

Hell John, why weren't we doing this earlier, we could all be stinking rich and not have to work.

We are not Japan, we could just as easily end up like Greece.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 11:30:55 pm
We are not Japan, we could just as easily end up like Greece.

We're far more like Japan than Greece. Greece is in a monetary union, and doesn't have a central bank.

No one is proposing anything that the rest of the world isn't having to do right now. I'm actually not sure what you expect should be done at the moment.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 11:35:11 pm
We're far more like Japan than Greece. Greece is in a monetary union, and doesn't have a central bank.

No one is proposing anything that the rest of the world isn't having to do right now. I'm actually not sure what you expect should be done at the moment.

Yes, Greece had Germany to bail it out, with conditions.
We can't keep shovelling money out the door, every day it is another multi billion dollar announcement. There will be a reckoning.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 12, 2020, 11:38:50 pm
Yes, Greece had Germany to bail it out, with conditions.
We can't keep shovelling money out the door, every day it is another multi billion dollar announcement. There will be a reckoning.

Yes, and Canada has the Bank of Canada.  This is not the 90s. This is a $2-2.5T economy with a pre COVID federal fiscal position that was the envy of much of the developed word.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 12, 2020, 11:50:55 pm
Yes, and Canada has the Bank of Canada.  This is not the 90s. This is a $2-2.5T economy with a pre COVID federal fiscal position that was the envy of much of the developed word.



It isn't a $2-2.5T economy anymore, GDP dropped 9% in March alone.

Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 12:31:19 am


It isn't a $2-2.5T economy anymore, GDP dropped 9% in March alone.

Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.

Canadaís recovery package is so far relatively small compared to other countries. Shovelling money out the door is a matter of perspective.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 13, 2020, 12:35:14 am


It isn't a $2-2.5T economy anymore, GDP dropped 9% in March alone.

Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.

What makes you think Canada is worse off than any other country eating with this?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 12:39:07 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52450958

Canada doesnít even crack the top 20 at 8.4% of GDP (itís slightly more now, but for basically everyone).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 08:43:26 am
Canadaís recovery package is so far relatively small compared to other countries. Shovelling money out the door is a matter of perspective.
Not when it is to people who donít need it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 12:24:50 pm
Not when it is to people who donít need it.

Who made you the arbiter or that?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 01:35:14 pm
Who made you the arbiter or that?

I don't want to be arbiter, nor do we want cheques from government because we get OAS. We don't need them and if we get cheques we will donate the money to a local food bank and get a tax receipt, because the government obviously doesn't need the money.

Trudeau says they won't worry about fraud and recover unwarranted payments later.  Even if they do, they will be lucky to get 50 cents on the dollar and how many millions will be spent trying to recover it. They will just write it off.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 01:50:23 pm
I don't want to be arbiter, nor do we want cheques from government because we get OAS. We don't need them and if we get cheques we will donate the money to a local food bank and get a tax receipt, because the government obviously doesn't need the money.

Okay, but a lot of people who get OAS and especially GIS aren't you.

Quote
Trudeau says they won't worry about fraud and recover unwarranted payments later.  Even if they do, they will be lucky to get 50 cents on the dollar and how many millions will be spent trying to recover it. They will just write it off.

If they had used a system with fraud prevention, most people wouldn't have money even yet.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 13, 2020, 01:55:22 pm

If they had used a system with fraud prevention, most people wouldn't have money even yet.

Exactly this.  The pandemic is an emergency.  Unfortunately, there isnít the time to do it exactly correctly or to determine means, or fraud, or whatever else prior to cheques going out.

Which is exactly the reason why we need a Basic Monthly Income for all citizens of the country.  Everyone would get it, and those that donít need it would be paying it back through income taxes.  There woundít be all this craziness about who gets what cheque and so many different programs geared towards different people. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 02:04:35 pm
Okay, but a lot of people who get OAS and especially GIS aren't you.



I agree, payments should be based on taxable income. If they are still working, they should be able to collect CERB if their income has been interrupted.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 06:31:30 pm
I agree, payments should be based on taxable income. If they are still working, they should be able to collect CERB if their income has been interrupted.

This is about food inflation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 13, 2020, 08:05:43 pm
Scratch that - it will cost absolutely nothing:

"We anticipate that debt charges will not go up, which is surprising and counterintuitive," Giroux said. "Interest rates are so much lower than what we anticipated them to be just two or three months ago. It doesn't cost that much to finance that growing debt.

"Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-deficit-higher-than-252-billion-1.5566768

Of course it will cost money, a ton of money.  Interest rates are extremely low now.  But likely after 2-3 years rates will start rising.  We're not going to be paying this 1 trillion back any time soon, if ever.  You don't borrow a trillion dollars and not pay it back for decades if at all without paying a crapload of interest, and then interest on the interest which compounds.

Also, see my signature.  I'm usually right about this stuff.  From your link immediately following your quote that you conveniently left out:

"He [Giroux] said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning"."

See.

If the deficit is 1 trillion we'll be more than doubling our federal debt.  We're screwed.  Every day we're in lockdown we're loading more debt onto the heap.  Not much we can do though.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 13, 2020, 08:30:14 pm
Yes we need government to intervene but JT is just shovelling money out the door as fast as he can and it isn't sustainable. Today it was 2.5 billion for seniors. If you are receiving old age security, you will get a check. It takes a combined income of over $120K before they start clawing back OAS, give it to seniors who really need it.

I can't fault the government for spending all this money, people need it, and so does our economy.  A lot of money is being saved rather than spent though, which is worrisome for the economy at the moment but in the longrun will be ok, it will eventually spent.

We have to be careful to watch what's being spent though, obviously.  I have a friend who got laid off and went on the CERB benefit.  Financially this was doable for them.  But then their employer got the wage subsidy thing and my friend was re-hired but is still sitting at home doing nothing and getting paid 75% of their regular wages for doing nothing, paid for by the government.  Maybe some people need that extra money though, for mortgages and whatnot, I dunno.  This friend doesn't have kids either.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 13, 2020, 08:32:21 pm
If they had used a system with fraud prevention, most people wouldn't have money even yet.

True.  People started to get their money in a couple of days.  They didn't check anything.  It's an emergency, i'm fine with it as long as any money for people who don't qualify eventually pay it back with interest.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 08:38:33 pm
Of course it will cost money, a ton of money.  Interest rates are extremely low now.  But likely after 2-3 years.....

...it won't matter, because the one time spending will have been locked in for decades.  If we kept having $100B deficits, yeah, we'd have a problem. These 1-2 large deficits isn't an issue with current interest rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 13, 2020, 08:40:30 pm
...it won't matter, because the one time spending will have been locked in for decades.  If we kept having $100B deficits, yeah, we'd have a problem. These 1-2 large deficits isn't an issue with current interest rates.

Link?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 13, 2020, 08:47:54 pm
Link?

What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 13, 2020, 08:51:13 pm
What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.

As the saying goes, "we're all in this together" I'll pay a bit more for gas and such if it gets us through this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 13, 2020, 08:59:27 pm
What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.

We might have to something like that.  Raising taxes somehow.  It would be the responsible thing to do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 10:00:18 pm
What if we have to raise the GST by 5 points to pay this off?  So what???   We're a rich country with a relatively low tax rate.  It may be the case that our standard of living is going to go down slightly...   People will have to take the bus more...  maybe only have one car per couple!!  Whoah!  How terrible will that be?? 

Every point of GST = $7billion to the treasury.  That might be a bit less if people spend less, or the gov't lowers taxes on lower income Canadians to compensate for the GST hike.  But, we could make up these emergency measures in a few short years if we actually made people pay a bit more tax.


GST isn't an entity of its own, for government to collect it, people need to have money to buy stuff.
If GDP is contracting, what are you going to tax?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 13, 2020, 10:05:18 pm
Link?

I provided you with the information already.   Canada will have to roll over a large part of it's debt this year. Borrowing costs for most of Canada's debt will continue to fall for the foreseeable future.

You guys act like we're at the end of the line or something.  We're one of the few AAA rated countries, and we're expected to keep that rating through this.  The federal finances will survive, even if things become a bit tighter at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 13, 2020, 10:08:12 pm
I provided you with the information already.   Canada will have to roll over a large part of it's debt this year. Borrowing costs for most of Canada's debt will continue to fall for the foreseeable future.
The operative words are "roll over". If all you do is continually acquire debt and roll it over, eventually it will come back to bite you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 14, 2020, 09:01:04 pm
The operative words are "roll over". If all you do is continually acquire debt and roll it over, eventually it will come back to bite you.

If you're a person, sure. If you're a country - maybe, maybe not.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 14, 2020, 09:15:59 pm
If you're a person, sure. If you're a country - maybe, maybe not.

Like I said, where were you in 93?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 14, 2020, 09:22:15 pm

GST isn't an entity of its own, for government to collect it, people need to have money to buy stuff.
If GDP is contracting, what are you going to tax?

Well obviously you're not going to raise taxes now.  But maybe when the recession ends they may have to.  But voters dislike taxes more than they dislike debt because, well, they like having their cake and eating it too.  People are generally irresponsible shmucks.  So the government will have pressure not to raise taxes.  Meanwhile they get to play the hero by spending other people's money, which will benefit them in the inevitable election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 14, 2020, 09:43:00 pm
I provided you with the information already.

Where's the link?  Where's the evidence?

Quote
Canada will have to roll over a large part of it's debt this year. Borrowing costs for most of Canada's debt will continue to fall for the foreseeable future.

That's always the case during a global recession.  The interest rates will rise inevitably, and if they go up too much we're going to get smacked, just like Giroux said.  You're talking about the next couple of years.  I'm talking about decades because that's how long we'll have this debt in the very best case scenario.

Quote
You guys act like we're at the end of the line or something.  We're one of the few AAA rated countries, and we're expected to keep that rating through this.  The federal finances will survive, even if things become a bit tighter at some point in the future.

And you act like nothing is wrong at all, everything is fine.  You do realize this country is on a trend of borrowing every recession and not paying it back right?  It's not sustainable in the longterm.  Something needs to change.  Sure the country will survive, but the gravy train is going to end at some point.  We're burning a candle at both ends.  Everything I've said the last few years about our budget has come to pass.

And our energy sector is being smashed to bits, which is what got us through the last recession.  Investors are fleeing this country at unprecedented rates.  Our economic growth in the short and medium term even after this recession is over is looking like the sh!ts, which is why they're leaving.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 14, 2020, 09:46:50 pm
With this COVID money being spent, where's all the people now who said Harper was financially irresponsible because he drove up Canada's debt so much?  If that's true, then Trudeau is even more irresponsible, right?  Hypocrites.

Of course, I don't think either is true.  You spend during a recession to stimulate the economy, and you pay it back when the economy recovers so you can be ready for the next recession.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 08:32:27 am
Like I said, where were you in 93?

We weren't actually anywhere near bankruptcy in 2003.  We were also running massive deficits in a vacuum.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 08:33:58 am
Where's the link?  Where's the evidence?

Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 08:48:56 am
We weren't actually anywhere near bankruptcy in 2003.  We were also running massive deficits in a vacuum.

Investors didnít want our bonds which forced Chrťtien and Martin to drastically cut federal spending, which in turn put pressure on provincial budgets forcing their debt to increase. The BoC has already started quantitive easing which is basically printing money and Canada will probably lose its AAA credit rating. That means it will pay higher interest rates. You seem to think there is some kind of free ride here.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 09:05:26 am
Investors didnít want our bonds which forced Chrťtien and Martin to drastically cut federal spending, which in turn put pressure on provincial budgets forcing their debt to increase. The BoC has already started quantitive easing which is basically printing money and Canada will probably lose its AAA credit rating.

Where's your info for that? Kevin Page has already come out and said that's unlikely.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 09:31:46 am
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.
Low interest rates won't last forever.  It's not a good idea to run policy with the expectations that they will.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 09:35:41 am
Where's your info for that? Kevin Page has already come out and said that's unlikely.
Our debt to GDP ratio was in the danger zone.  Chretien and Martin were responsible leaders, unlike our current government.  They cut spending by 20-30% across the board.  It led to unprecedented surpluses and economic growth and debt reduction.  We were the envy of the G7.  That's all for nothing now, as our GDP to debt ratios have significantly increased, and all the debt we reduced from the late 90s to 2008 has been added back on, and then some.  Because we have a PM that wants to play Santa Claus.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 09:53:24 am
Our debt to GDP ratio was in the danger zone.  Chretien and Martin were responsible leaders, unlike our current government.  They cut spending by 20-30% across the board.  It led to unprecedented surpluses and economic growth and debt reduction.  We were the envy of the G7.  That's all for nothing now, as our GDP to debt ratios have significantly increased, and all the debt we reduced from the late 90s to 2008 has been added back on, and then some.  Because we have a PM that wants to play Santa Claus.

Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper. It has reduced since JT took office. Of course you may have heard there is a pandemic occuring which will certainly have an effect. I suppose you'll try and blame Covid on Trudeau somehow.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 10:47:37 am
Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper. It has reduced since JT took office. Of course you may have heard there is a pandemic occuring which will certainly have an effect. I suppose you'll try and blame Covid on Trudeau somehow.
Complete and utter nonsense.  Again, you don't know what you're talking about.  It wasn't reduced at all since JT took office, he's ran massive deficits every year!  Many of Harper's years were balanced budgets or surpluses.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.  Sheesh.  You lie like Trump.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 10:53:11 am
Our debt to GDP ratio was in the danger zone.

Not even close. Japan's debt to GDP ratio has now passed 250%.  we are the 10th largest economy in the world with far more economic power than in 1993.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 10:54:25 am
Low interest rates won't last forever.  It's not a good idea to run policy with the expectations that they will.

No one is proposing doing that. Conservatives have a new game where they act like the pandemic isn't a thing.  They were also the ones saying that the aid packaged was too small and too slow in March.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 10:59:48 am
Where's your info for that? Kevin Page has already come out and said that's unlikely.

BNN has had a couple articles on it.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/soaring-canadian-deficit-may-jeopardize-aaa-rating-macquarie-1.1436065

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 11:07:24 am
BNN has had a couple articles on it.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/soaring-canadian-deficit-may-jeopardize-aaa-rating-macquarie-1.1436065
Exactly.  I believe it was close to 70% when Chretien and Martin took an axe to it. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 11:26:52 am
Complete and utter nonsense.  Again, you don't know what you're talking about.  It wasn't reduced at all since JT took office, he's ran massive deficits every year!  Many of Harper's years were balanced budgets or surpluses.  You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.  Sheesh.  You lie like Trump.

i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harperís fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 11:55:34 am
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.

Link?  Evidence?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 11:59:49 am
i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harperís fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/

Five year old article.

Harper started with balanced budgets, that's why he felt he could reduce the GST. Then there was the 2009 financial crisis as well as a war in Afghanistan and everything went sideways, resulting in deficit years gradually returning to a balanced budget in 2015.

By the end of this year, Trudeau will have increased it by 400 billion, maybe more. He had planned on increasing it 200 billion by 2025 anyway, but that was before Covid-19
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 12:00:55 pm
Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper. It has reduced since JT took office. Of course you may have heard there is a pandemic occuring which will certainly have an effect. I suppose you'll try and blame Covid on Trudeau somehow.

That's not true.  It was highest under Chretien in the mid/late-90's until they really started running surpluses, because Mulroney went bonkers with spending and there was a recession in the early 90's.

https://www.ifsd.ca/web/default/files/Presentations/Reports/PDC3.png
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 12:03:03 pm
That's not true.  It was highest under Chretien in the mid/late-90's until they really started running surpluses, because Mulroney went bonkers with spending and there was a recession in the early 90's.

https://www.ifsd.ca/web/default/files/Presentations/Reports/PDC3.png

There were also 20% interest rates.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 12:07:17 pm
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.

Who is going to buy that trillion dollars worth of Canadian bonds at 1.06%?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 12:07:38 pm
i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harperís fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/

Harper governed during the Great Recession.  Thus he ran big deficits during that time.  Trudeau is governing during this COVID economic meltdown and is going to be running even higher deficits, because he has to or we're even more screwed.

The problem isn't the deficits, it's not paying them down afterwards, because Canadians and politicians are cheap and greedy and irresponsible.  They want to have their cake and eat it too.  It's fun to spend money, it's not fun to pay it back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 12:38:59 pm
BNN has had a couple articles on it.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/soaring-canadian-deficit-may-jeopardize-aaa-rating-macquarie-1.1436065

If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 12:46:08 pm
i know facts aren't your forte so here's a little info for you.

No matter how you add it up, Harperís fiscal record is a catastrophe


Since Harper was elected, the federal debt has increased by over $150 billion, wiping out the reduction in federal debt achieved under Chretien and Martin. Not much to boast about there.

https://ipolitics.ca/2015/04/19/no-matter-how-you-add-it-up-harpers-fiscal-record-is-a-catastrophe/
Your point was that under Harper, debt to GDP ratio was the highest it's ever been.  That's completely false.  Regardless, almost all of the debt under Harper was due to the 2008 global financial crisis.  But if you think Harper's record is bad, you should see Trudeau's!  Yikes!  It's 10 times as bad.  Over $400 billion in debt just this year!  LOL!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 12:47:41 pm
Harper added $150 billion dollars in debt over 9 years.  Trudeau's added almost $600 billion dollars in just 5!  Holy shit!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 12:55:01 pm
If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash.
Um, but it ends up costing us more to finance debt.  But that's ok because it's costing everybody else more too?  What kind of logic is that?  When is tying up a larger % of the budget in just paying interest on debt a good thing?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 12:56:10 pm
If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash.

It means more competition for money and probably higher rates. You still think there is a free ride.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 01:01:50 pm
Your point was that under Harper, debt to GDP ratio was the highest it's ever been.  That's completely false.  Regardless, almost all of the debt under Harper was due to the 2008 global financial crisis.  But if you think Harper's record is bad, you should see Trudeau's!  Yikes!  It's 10 times as bad.  Over $400 billion in debt just this year!  LOL!

Nope, never said it was the highest it ever was under Harper. He did manage to get it up to the highest it was since the 70's @38.3% while JT has only got it up the 33.8% at last count. And once again, we have to consider the current government is having to deal with a pandemic which will cost money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 01:47:04 pm
Nope, never said it was the highest it ever was under Harper. He did manage to get it up to the highest it was since the 70's @38.3% while JT has only got it up the 33.8% at last count. And once again, we have to consider the current government is having to deal with a pandemic which will cost money.

Wrong, it was well over 60% during the nineties and will likely be around 55% by the end of this year. Debt to GDP is a ratio, GDP is now sinking, Debt to GDP would be going up even if the budget was balanced.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 01:57:01 pm
Wrong, it was well over 60% during the nineties and will likely be around 55% by the end of this year. Debt to GDP is a ratio, GDP is now sinking, Debt to GDP would be going up even if the budget was balanced.

https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/government-debt-to-gdp
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 02:11:24 pm
https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/government-debt-to-gdp

That is total government debt, not federal government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 02:38:37 pm
It means more competition for money and probably higher rates. You still think there is a free ride.

No one said there's a free ride, but the sky isn't falling.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Shady on May 15, 2020, 03:44:21 pm
No one said there's a free ride, but the sky isn't falling.
No, but you're squeezing out spending on other programs when you expand the amount of money needed to just service debt.  Anyways, I agree with you about the sky not falling.  I wish that same logic was applied to the coronavirus as well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 03:48:23 pm
No, but you're squeezing out spending on other programs when you expand the amount of money needed to just service debt.  Anyways, I agree with you about the sky not falling.  I wish that same logic was applied to the coronavirus as well.

The rate of corona cases is leveling because people are applying similar logic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 04:04:22 pm
Harper added $150 billion dollars in debt over 9 years.

This number is true.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 04:06:32 pm
If Canada loses AAA, basically everyone loses AAA, and it's a wash.

That's the one good thing from this, everyone is taking the hit too, which helps our situation a bit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 04:09:07 pm
Nope, never said it was the highest it ever was under Harper.

You're a liar like your boy Trump.

Actually our debt to gdp ratio was the highest it's ever been under Harper.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 04:15:27 pm
You're a liar like your boy Trump.

I said "highest since the 70's" please read before you comment.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 04:17:08 pm
No one said there's a free ride, but the sky isn't falling.

Even if we pay no interest on this debt we're taking out it's going to take a very, very long time to pay it back, if ever.

Our ability to pay it back is also being hampered by our energy sector being decimated before our eyes.  The TSX has taken a mega crap-kicking, much more than the US markets have.  The country isn't collapsing but we're going into the red big-time.  It's not a good situation.  We may be doubling our debt while having our economy weakened in the short and medium term.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 04:18:27 pm
I said "highest since the 70's" please read before you comment.

Doubling-down on lies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on May 15, 2020, 04:23:54 pm
Doubling-down on lies.

Sorry if you can't read well. Somewhere in what I posted there is a graph which shows you how much debt Harper created during his term. Have a look.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 04:32:06 pm
No, but you're squeezing out spending on other programs when you expand the amount of money needed to just service debt.

Debt servicing is predicted to be stable to falling, even with this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 06:24:05 pm
Debt servicing is predicted to be stable to falling, even with this.

For how long?  Links with evidence.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 06:57:28 pm
For how long?  Links with evidence.

For 30 years. Even if we take on significantly ore debt,  our old higher rate debt is about to be rolled over at a lower rate. I already should you the bond yield.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 07:08:25 pm
For 30 years. Even if we take on significantly ore debt,  our old higher rate debt is about to be rolled over at a lower rate. I already should you the bond yield.

You've provided no links about these claims after I continually insist.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 15, 2020, 08:00:33 pm
For 30 years. Even if we take on significantly ore debt,  our old higher rate debt is about to be rolled over at a lower rate. I already should you the bond yield.
You still havenít explained who will buy this debt. You assume existing bond holders will just roll them over into new ones. What if they just cash out and no one wants to buy the new ones.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 08:07:14 pm
You've provided no links about these claims after I continually insist.

I provided the 30 year bond yield. I provided you with quotes from the PBO saying that our borrowing costs are not likely to increase.  What more do you want to see?

Here's Kevin Page saying we probably won't lose AAA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3diTXBU5W0
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 08:47:25 pm
I provided the 30 year bond yield. I provided you with quotes from the PBO saying that our borrowing costs are not likely to increase.  What more do you want to see?

You said:

Quote
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.

How do you know that "Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over"?  Where's your evidence for this claim?  Or is it a wild guess?

Canada issues bonds at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years etc.

Where's your evidence that all or even most of this new debt we're spending will be locked in at 30 years at 1.06%?  What kind of moron would invest in a 30 year bond that only returned 1% interest...one of the lowest interest rates in history?  I would never, ever buy that bond, would you?  Would the Canadian government invest in a bond from a foreign country at that rate for 30 years?  Only if they were stupid, since it returns next to nothing and interest rates will start rising in a year or 2 or 3.

Quote
I provided you with quotes from the PBO saying that our borrowing costs are not likely to increase.

The PBO also said this in the article:  "Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."  He said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning."

Interest rates go up and down all the time.  Right now they're low, so we're ok.  But how long are they borrowing at these low rates?  And what will happen in 5 years or 10 years or 20 years when they renew borrowing for the debt at higher rates when they inevitably haven't paid off all the money they're borrowing now along with the previous debt?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 15, 2020, 08:59:14 pm
We've been sold total BS, as I've been saying for years.  Liberals have been budgeting the last 5 years based on total BS projections that only a fool would think would happen, assuming recessions and big downturns never occur every 7-10 years or so:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-public-pensions-new-spending-put-pressure-on-federal-budgets-bottom/

"Mondayís fiscal update says the federal deficit is projected to be $28.1-billion in 2020-21, $22.1-billion in 2021-22, $18.4-billion in 2022-23 and $16.3-billion in 2023-24. Those figures include an annual $3-billion ďadjustment for riskĒ to cover unforeseen events or economic changes.

Those annual deficit forecasts compare with the Liberal platform projections of $27.4-billion in 2020-21, $23.7-billion in 2021-22, $21.8-billion in 2022-23 and $21-billion in 2023-24.

Mr. Morneau pointed reporters to government plans to find $1.5-billion a year in internal savings, and said he will deliver on the partyís campaign promises while keeping the federal debt-to-GDP ratio under control."


 :D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 15, 2020, 11:32:14 pm
You said:

How do you know that "Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over"?  Where's your evidence for this claim?  Or is it a wild guess?

Canada issues bonds at 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years etc.

Where's your evidence that all or even most of this new debt we're spending will be locked in at 30 years at 1.06%?  What kind of moron would invest in a 30 year bond that only returned 1% interest...one of the lowest interest rates in history?  I would never, ever buy that bond, would you?  Would the Canadian government invest in a bond from a foreign country at that rate for 30 years?  Only if they were stupid, since it returns next to nothing and interest rates will start rising in a year or 2 or 3.

The PBO also said this in the article:  "Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."  He said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning."

Interest rates go up and down all the time.  Right now they're low, so we're ok.  But how long are they borrowing at these low rates?  And what will happen in 5 years or 10 years or 20 years when they renew borrowing for the debt at higher rates when they inevitably haven't paid off all the money they're borrowing now along with the previous debt?

When was the last time we had high interest rates? Our debt servicing costs have been going nowhere but down for decades. Where is your evidence that things are about to get so difficult?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 09:19:24 am
Gee John, if we could borrow hundreds of billions and run our debt to GDP up over 200%
like Japan with little or no consequences, why werenít we doing it before? We could have had a brand new military, lots of new infrastructure, social programs and be giving people money to do nothing at little or no cost. Why were we so dumb not to see that?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 10:15:16 am
Gee John, if we could borrow hundreds of billions and run our debt to GDP up over 200%
like Japan with little or no consequences, why werenít we doing it before? We could have had a brand new military, lots of new infrastructure, social programs and be giving people money to do nothing at little or no cost. Why were we so dumb not to see that?

You keep creating straw men. It isn't prudent to constantly increase debt to GDP. The point is that the sky is far far far far far far far from falling. After this is over, we simply need to return to a slowly falling debt to GDP ratio and we'll be fine.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 11:11:40 am
You keep creating straw men. It isn't prudent to constantly increase debt to GDP. The point is that the sky is far far far far far far far from falling. After this is over, we simply need to return to a slowly falling debt to GDP ratio and we'll be fine.

Sure we will. We can just print money and live happily ever after.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 12:10:46 pm
You still haven't said who is going to lend us all this money at near zero interest rates. If you are hoping to grow an RRSP you had better hope the stock market performs really well because bonds and GIC's will end up costing you money. Same goes for the CPP and company pension plans which invest in the same kind of assets. Retirees will watch their savings disappear at an accelerating rate because they are no longer generating income as their pile grows smaller. In order to reduce debt to GDP you either have to reduce debt or increase GDP. Our GDP is shrinking and in recent years, real estate and energy have been the biggest contributors to growth. Both are in the tank and if the Alberta haters get their way energy will never come back, so they better come up with other ways to grow the economy that don't involve increasing debt.

And then there is the possibility of runaway inflation as governments pour trillions of new money into economies.

But don't worry be happy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 16, 2020, 12:13:26 pm
When was the last time we had high interest rates? Our debt servicing costs have been going nowhere but down for decades. Where is your evidence that things are about to get so difficult?

Right before the 2008 recession they were high.

I'm not saying things are about to get difficult, i'm not saying the sky is falling by any means, i'm saying we need to be careful and concerned, because taking on a lot more debt creates risks.

We have absolutely no idea what interest rates will do over the coming decades.  Interest rates vary but overall have been trending downwards over the last 40 years.  (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-rate)  This has helped lead to more and more borrowing and debt for governments and individuals.  It's creating bubbles, and eventually it will pop.  It popped in 2008 with US mortgages.  The bubbles being created since then are much larger.

If you want to see what unexpected rising interest rates can do to the finances of countries, go look at African countries in the 1980's, it crippled them, after they borrowed a ton of money cheaply in the 1970's when rates were low and then rates spiked in the 80's.  I'm not saying that will happen on that scale, it's unlikely, but on a smaller scale it could, as the PBO warned: "Is the government in a worrisome position right now? The answer is no."  He said the debt load could become "unbearable" in the event of a sizeable spike in interest rates and added the prospect of such an increase is "concerning."

Any time any government goes deeply in the red it's concerning, and we've never seen anything like this, not since WWII:  https://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2020_05/image.png.baa5c2c7f4ebc47b303dfdc2375f5e76.png

You also continue to fail to answer where you're getting this info for many of your assumptions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 12:24:05 pm
A big reason interest rates are so low is because debt levels are so high, economies would collapse if rates increased to as little as 5%. How can anyone think that is healthy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 12:54:03 pm
Right before the 2008 recession they were high.


High? No, they were more normal.

In Canada, higher interest rates would raise borrowing costs in the medium term, but it would also make defined benefit pensions at the federal level far more affordable.  It would be mostly a wash.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 12:57:20 pm
https://twitter.com/trevortombe/status/1255926184220651520?s=20

This is far from the end of the world.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 16, 2020, 01:07:01 pm
Right before the 2008 recession they were high.

What???  5% is high?   Thatís not even close.  5% is within spitting distance of the lowest ever. 

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-interest-rate.png?s=cclr&v=202004151428V20191105&ismobile=1&w=400&h=250&lbl=0&d1=19200610)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on May 16, 2020, 01:55:49 pm
After this is over, we simply need to return to a slowly falling debt to GDP ratio and we'll be fine.

And what does that look like, exactly?  All the economists are saying the economy is going to be the worst it has been since the Great Depression and growth is going to be slow for a long time to come. The "V shaped recovery" isn't going to happen. It'll take us years to get back to where we were just a year ago.

So how do we get to a decreasing debt-to-GDP ratio in the foreseeable future?  Tax hikes? Spending cuts? Both?

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on May 16, 2020, 01:58:40 pm
Canada's 30 year bond rate is 1.06%. Almost all of our old debt is about to roll over, and the new debt will be accrued at the 1.06% rate.  Debt servicing costs are going to fall, even with a trillion dollars of new debt.

Who would lock in bonds for 30 years at 1% interest?  Who would buy bonds at 1% interest at all?  That's not even keeping up with inflation.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 02:14:32 pm
What???  5% is high?   Thatís not even close.  5% is within spitting distance of the lowest ever. 

(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/canada-interest-rate.png?s=cclr&v=202004151428V20191105&ismobile=1&w=400&h=250&lbl=0&d1=19200610)

5% interest rates right now would bankrupt millions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 02:46:07 pm
Who would lock in bonds for 30 years at 1% interest?  Who would buy bonds at 1% interest at all?  That's not even keeping up with inflation.

 -k

Youíd have to ask the people buying the bonds.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 02:49:21 pm
Youíd have to ask the people buying the bonds.

What people? You just assume there will be people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 16, 2020, 03:40:05 pm
High? No, they were more normal.

A 3 year GIC from a bank in 2007 was around 4.5% if I remember.  I guess "high" and "normal" is what you define it, I guess you could call 4.5% moderate, it certainly wasn't "very high".  We haven't seen anything close to that since then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 16, 2020, 04:10:01 pm
What people? You just assume there will be people.

There are people buying right now ffs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 04:13:10 pm
In 2007 a 5 year GIC rate was about 3.5% A ten year govt bond paid over 4%. In 1990 a 5 year GIC paid 11% and a 10 year bond 10.8%.
In 1981, 5 yr GIC's and 10 yr bonds paid over 15% and the average for the next ten years was over 10%.

It wasn't great unless you had a lot of money in the bank but we survived.
Can you imagine what would happen if we hit those rates now. It would be catastrophic.

And people wonder why Mulroney's deficits were so high.



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 16, 2020, 04:15:34 pm
5% interest rates right now would bankrupt millions.

Exactly.

Governments reduce interest rates to increase borrowing so people will spend more money in order to increase GDP growth during struggling economic times.  When rates went to 4-5% in the USA millions of homeowners started foreclosing and the housing market collapsed on itself.

In Canada, interest rates went to historic lows following the 2008 recession and stayed low for years.  So a lot of people bought houses using this cheap credit.  This helped Canada's housing market skyrocket (among other factors), and now people are in deep, deep debt unlike any time in Canadian history.  A lot of people used the cheap credit to buy investment properties in the hot house markets to take advantage of the rising home prices, which further increased housing prices.  Over-speculation causes bubbles. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/speculativebubble.asp

If the feds or banks have to put interest rates to 4 or 5% the whole bubble could collapse & we become the USA in 2008.  The feds are in good shape financially, but Canada as a whole, including individuals and provinces, are knee-deep in debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 16, 2020, 04:17:09 pm
There are people buying right now ffs.

In 93 they were deciding they didn't want to, even though 10 year bonds were paying over 7%. That's why Chretien and Martin had to cut so much.
Your crystal ball better be right or we are all f****d.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 16, 2020, 04:33:27 pm
In 2007 a 5 year GIC rate was about 3.5% A ten year govt bond paid over 4%. In 1990 a 5 year GIC paid 11% and a 10 year bond 10.8%.
In 1981, 5 yr GIC's and 10 yr bonds paid over 15% and the average for the next ten years was over 10%.

It wasn't great unless you had a lot of money in the bank but we survived.
Can you imagine what would happen if we hit those rates now. It would be catastrophic.

And people wonder why Mulroney's deficits were so high.

Exactly.  In the 1980's global interest rates went sky-high, and we had a recession at the end of his tenure, which is a reason why our debt went insane.

Then Mulroney brought in the GST to help pay for these debts, which is what Chretien did with the GST, because the 1990's were also an excellent economic period globally and our growth was excellent like in the USA etc.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on May 18, 2020, 10:59:22 am
(https://i.imgur.com/uA8WSQo.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 11:26:53 am
The 37% in BC would be in the same place as the last election, metro Vancouver and the North Shore. The rest of the province would go Tory, NDP and Green.
Also, any poles taken before the Conservatives choose a new leader won't mean much.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 18, 2020, 12:08:05 pm
The 37% in BC would be in the same place as the last election, metro Vancouver and the North Shore.

And? Do those people not count? That's where most of the people live.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 12:17:30 pm
And? Do those people not count? That's where most of the people live.

Of course they count but i can't count the number of comment I have seen  (not here) that say the rest of the province doesn't count because it didn't vote the right way.

They don't actually, that's why the Liberals only got 11 out of 42 seats in the last election.

The Fraser Health Region is 1.6 million people compared to 1.25 for Vancouver Coastal.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 18, 2020, 12:31:51 pm
Of course they count but i can't count the number of comment I have seen  (not here) that say the rest of the province doesn't count because it didn't vote the right way.

They don't actually, that's why the Liberals only got 11 out of 42 seats in the last election.

The Fraser Health Region is 1.6 million people compared to 1.25 for Vancouver Coastal.

Did the Liberal party get 37% of the vote last time?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 12:40:29 pm
Did the Liberal party get 37% of the vote last time?

No but it was very concentrated in one area. I don't see that changing much. Where the votes are is more important than how many. If it were only total votes, Scheer would be PM.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 18, 2020, 03:53:40 pm
Liberals give Canadians a gazillion million billion free dollars, more money than any Canadian government has ever given people ever in the history of country by leaps and bounds, and their support goes up while the CPC has a lame duck and nobody gives an eff about the NDP.  Ok.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2020, 04:23:23 pm
Liberals give Canadians a gazillion million billion free dollars, more money than any Canadian government has ever given people ever in the history of country by leaps and bounds, and their support goes up while the CPC has a lame duck and nobody gives an eff about the NDP.  Ok.

So you think no money should have been provided because of the pandemic?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 18, 2020, 05:22:24 pm
No

Then it isn't the same situation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 18, 2020, 05:48:37 pm
So you think no money should have been provided because of the pandemic?

No.  I'm saying people like "free" money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2020, 05:50:59 pm
The 37% in BC would be in the same place as the last election, metro Vancouver and the North Shore. The rest of the province would go Tory, NDP and Green.

Where do you get this info from?

Being up 10% in BC from the 2019 election is huge... 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2020, 05:53:15 pm
No.  I'm saying people like "free" money.



So you're saying they're doing the right thing and people appreciate that sort of governance.... 
 
How enjoyable do you think it is for people getting all this "free money" if you used to make $5000 per month but now get $2000 per month because of the gov't program?  You think people are ecstatic about needing this?   ::)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 07:38:41 pm
Where do you get this info from?

Being up 10% in BC from the 2019 election is huge...

So do you think JT will call an election? Wait till the Conservatives get a new leader and the bills start coming in.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 18, 2020, 07:48:56 pm
So do you think JT will call an election? Wait till the Conservatives get a new leader and the bills start coming in.

The question is whether an election is called before the CPC chooses a new leader.  Liberals obviously want a majority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2020, 08:02:31 pm
So do you think JT will call an election? Wait till the Conservatives get a new leader and the bills start coming in.

Not likely to...  He doesnít need to, given who the next Conservative leader is going to be.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 08:49:29 pm
Not likely to...  He doesnít need to, given who the next Conservative leader is going to be.

Who is it going to be?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on May 18, 2020, 08:50:06 pm
Who is it going to be?

One of 4 unelectable idiots.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on May 18, 2020, 09:18:13 pm
One of 4 unelectable idiots.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on May 28, 2020, 07:17:02 pm
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months while the Liberals spend gazillions of dollars that won't be properly scrutinized in Parliament.

Meanwhile, though the Liberals are giving out money to everyone, they won't properly fund the AG so that they can do appropriate audits.  https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/house-committee-unanimous-in-petitioning-morneau-to-cover-auditor-generals-funding-shortfall

So Liberals want to suppress oversight of their massive spending.  Good job.  Enjoy your summer vacation, paid for by the billions you don't want any oversight on.  Oh yeah and the government wage subsidy the parties are taking too.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on May 28, 2020, 10:57:23 pm
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months while the Liberals spend gazillions of dollars that won't be properly scrutinized in Parliament.

Meanwhile, though the Liberals are giving out money to everyone, they won't properly fund the AG so that they can do appropriate audits.  https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/house-committee-unanimous-in-petitioning-morneau-to-cover-auditor-generals-funding-shortfall

So Liberals want to suppress oversight of their massive spending.  Good job.  Enjoy your summer vacation, paid for by the billions you don't want any oversight on.  Oh yeah and the government wage subsidy the parties are taking too.

your post is a pile of shyte! Of course, for weeks on end, weakAndy has been pushing for a full return of all MPs... apparently claiming virtual sittings don't allow his trained seals to properly perform! It was most inconvenient for media wags to point out to Scheer that he only attended 2 of 6 virtual sittings! What a conArteeest that weakAndy is, hey!

in any case, the fully functioning Parliament voted... you do realize the current minority government couldn't act without gaining enough support, right? ConspiracyG, you do know how minority governments work, right?

but yes, kinda per norm, there will be a summer recess - but not before:
Quote
Some MPs will still sit in Ottawa, four days a week well into June as part of a special COVID-19 committee that will include multiple hours of questions on the pandemic from opposition leaders directed at the government. In addition to those in the chamber, MPs from across the country will be able to take part via video conference, with large screens set up inside the House of Commons.

the waldo will allow you a do-over... suggesting you check the date on your linked article!  ;D By the by, the AG's office is proceeding with 3 key audits... I do believe your special whine is covered here, yes? 
- an examination of the federal governmentís $187 billion infrastructure plan,
- an audit of COVID-19-related special warrants issued under the Financial Administration Act and
- an audit of Ottawaís pandemic emergency response

try again, try harder!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on May 29, 2020, 10:48:44 am
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months while the Liberals spend gazillions of dollars that won't be properly scrutinized in Parliament.

Meanwhile, though the Liberals are giving out money to everyone, they won't properly fund the AG so that they can do appropriate audits.  https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/house-committee-unanimous-in-petitioning-morneau-to-cover-auditor-generals-funding-shortfall

So Liberals want to suppress oversight of their massive spending.  Good job.  Enjoy your summer vacation, paid for by the billions you don't want any oversight on.  Oh yeah and the government wage subsidy the parties are taking too.

Do you actually believe this garbage? The house will continue to sit in the form of the COVID committee. Ontario still has a massive problem with COVID-19, and Ottawa shouldn't be adding to that by bringing thousands of people back to the Hill.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on June 10, 2020, 08:18:59 am
Liberals decided they wanted to shut down Parliament during a state of emergency so their MPs can hang out and drink beer over the lovely summer months ...

Conservative MP's can sit around and drink beer all summer too.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 11, 2020, 10:34:50 am
ya ya, weakAndy/CPC have been pining for more face-time in Parliament... virtual sittings are an impediment to the posturing of CPC barking seals. And the summer recess was clearly the last straw!  ;D

for weeks on end Scheer was nattering on about Canadian fraudsters taking advantage of COVID-19 related assistance. Of course the news that ~190,000 persons, on their own initiatives, moved to pay back monies they weren't rightly entitled to - well that just messed with the Scheer narrative! And yes, it was MORE important to get the money out quickly versus alternate delays that rigourous oversight would have resulted in.

so now the government proposed a new two-fold COVID-19 aid bill intended to offer assistance to disabled persons... along with measures to impose penalties for fraudulently claiming the Canada Emergency Response Benefit... not just "simple mistakes" made; rather, overt fraud actions taken. But the CPC refused to support the new bill - even refusing to support a split bill that would allow a separate vote just on the disability aid... even refusing to discuss/debate the proposals. And why? Because, they have now openly stated they will not debate, they will not vote... on anything - until full Parliament is resumed!

here's Deputy CPC House leader John Nater - MP Perth-Wellington saying exactly that (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1271089553978404866/pu/vid/1280x720/bFd_ESFshpzxHA_6.mp4):
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on June 12, 2020, 03:31:52 pm
So now Scheer is personally responsible for withholding money for disabled people, even when that  bill is separated. Edit: My error I think. It isn't separate.


Seems a dumb ego trip devoid of caring on both leaders.

 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on June 16, 2020, 06:36:44 pm
Youíd have to ask the people buying the bonds.
What people? You just assume there will be people.
There are people buying right now ffs.

(https://i.imgur.com/Chj5lyY.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 17, 2020, 05:45:07 pm
Canada loses UN Security Council bid.  2.3 milllion dollars completely wasted on selling bribes to 3rd world dictators so they'd vote for us.

2.3 million dollars can pay for a year's rent for 190 homeless people, or a lifetime's supply of food for a bunch of them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 17, 2020, 05:49:34 pm
LOLZ

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/security-council-rejection-a-deep-embarrassment-for-harper/article1370239/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 17, 2020, 07:40:15 pm
Canada loses UN Security Council bid.  2.3 milllion dollars completely wasted on selling bribes to 3rd world dictators so they'd vote for us.

2.3 million dollars can pay for a year's rent for 190 homeless people, or a lifetime's supply of food for a bunch of them.

$2.3M is also about 1 millionth of the Canadian economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on June 17, 2020, 08:22:16 pm
LOLZ

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/security-council-rejection-a-deep-embarrassment-for-harper/article1370239/

I imagine that some people who were posting about failing to win the security council seat 10 years ago was "an international indictment of Stephen Harper" or crap like that are busy deleting old tweets today.

I don't think a seat on the security council actually matters, though. 

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 22, 2020, 02:50:54 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/18/canada-loses-bid-un-security-council-seat-justin-trudeau

Wonder if things will change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Granny on June 22, 2020, 03:30:14 pm
ya ya, weakAndy/CPC have been pining for more face-time in Parliament... virtual sittings are an impediment to the posturing of CPC barking seals. And the summer recess was clearly the last straw!  ;D

for weeks on end Scheer was nattering on about Canadian fraudsters taking advantage of COVID-19 related assistance. Of course the news that ~190,000 persons, on their own initiatives, moved to pay back monies they weren't rightly entitled to - well that just messed with the Scheer narrative! And yes, it was MORE important to get the money out quickly versus alternate delays that rigourous oversight would have resulted in.

so now the government proposed a new two-fold COVID-19 aid bill intended to offer assistance to disabled persons... along with measures to impose penalties for fraudulently claiming the Canada Emergency Response Benefit... not just "simple mistakes" made; rather, overt fraud actions taken. But the CPC refused to support the new bill - even refusing to support a split bill that would allow a separate vote just on the disability aid... even refusing to discuss/debate the proposals. And why? Because, they have now openly stated they will not debate, they will not vote... on anything - until full Parliament is resumed!

here's Deputy CPC House leader John Nater - MP Perth-Wellington saying exactly that (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1271089553978404866/pu/vid/1280x720/bFd_ESFshpzxHA_6.mp4):

Well, if the Conservative MP's refuse to perform their duties, I guess they'll just be marked Absent. They are already entirely irrelevant, so it won't make much difference.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 24, 2020, 07:50:10 pm
The government lost one AAA rating today due to global government debt (provinces plus feds). The market took no notice. Now that I have an understanding of MMT, I wonder why we even care about the ratings, debt, or deficits. They're all meaningless for a monetary sovereign with a reserve currency like Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2020, 08:24:58 pm
The government lost one AAA rating today due to global government debt (provinces plus feds). The market took no notice. Now that I have an understanding of MMT, I wonder why we even care about the ratings, debt, or deficits. They're all meaningless for a monetary sovereign with a reserve currency like Canada.

What market? The stock market took a big hit today for the same reasons.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 24, 2020, 08:46:29 pm
The government lost one AAA rating today due to global government debt (provinces plus feds). The market took no notice. Now that I have an understanding of MMT, I wonder why we even care about the ratings, debt, or deficits. They're all meaningless for a monetary sovereign with a reserve currency like Canada.

http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/modern-monetary-theory/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 24, 2020, 08:50:15 pm
http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/modern-monetary-theory/

So what happens first, we print so much money it becomes worthless or we get crushed under the interest?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:30:37 am
http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/modern-monetary-theory/

Those questions are misrepresentations of MMT.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:31:43 am
So what happens first, we print so much money it becomes worthless or we get crushed under the interest?

The government doesnít actually have to sell bonds, and can in fact have the Bank of Canada buy itís own bonds to control yield curves - both Australia and Japan are doing this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:32:18 am
What market? The stock market took a big hit today for the same reasons.

Bond market - Canadaís borrowing costs decreased today.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:37:07 am
Anyway - todayís downgrade wasnít about federal debt -

https://twitter.com/trevortombe/status/1275925917601153024?s=21

Unlike Canada, the provinces donít have the option to eliminate their debt with a keystroke.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2020, 09:49:05 am
Anyway - todayís downgrade wasnít about federal debt -

https://twitter.com/trevortombe/status/1275925917601153024?s=21

Unlike Canada, the provinces donít have the option to eliminate their debt with a keystroke.

The massive federal deficit did obviously contribute to the downgrade though.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2020, 09:52:10 am
Those questions are misrepresentations of MMT.

You just said that debt, deficits, and ratings are meaningless, because Canada can print money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:07:25 am
The massive federal deficit did obviously contribute to the downgrade though.

Only in that it contributed to the global debt number for Canada - on it's own, it's 0 concern.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:07:54 am
You just said that debt, deficits, and ratings are meaningless, because Canada can print money.

Well, then, I misrepresented it. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 11:11:38 am
Bond market - Canadaís borrowing costs decreased today.

Maybe but only fools are buying long term debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 12:26:01 pm
Maybe but only fools are buying long term debt.

And yet theyíre buying it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 12:46:39 pm
And yet theyíre buying it.

You know they are buying long term debt for a fact?
 
A one year bond is paying .27%. A 30 year bond is paying 1.02%

If you buy a 30 year bond at 1.02% and in ten years rates are at 3%, you are stuck with your money invested at 1.02% for the next 20 years and a bond you would have to sell at a big discount if you wanted to get rid of it. If you keep buying one year bonds, all you stand to lose is .27%. That 30 year bond is one hell of a gamble.

I have several bonds and GIC's coming due this year and it isn't looking good. I'm not locking money in for a long term at next to no interest. Right now I wouldn't go longer than three years and there would need to be a good reason to go that long. I stand to lose little by going short term and hoping rates improve. I stand to lose a lot by going long term at a very low rate.

You may think these rates are good for government but they are very hard on pension plans, RRSP's, RRIF's, TFSA's and any other personal investments people may have for retirement.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 04:11:47 pm
The government doesnít actually have to sell bonds, and can in fact have the Bank of Canada buy itís own bonds to control yield curves - both Australia and Japan are doing this.

That  is just printing money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 06:41:41 pm
That  is just printing money.

Yes, and as long as inflation is under control, there's really no disincentive to do that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 06:42:14 pm
You know they are buying long term debt for a fact?

Do you know how bond markets work?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 06:49:07 pm
Yes, and as long as inflation is under control, there's really no disincentive to do that.

You are poring new money into an economy that doesn't have the GDP to justify it. That is a recipe for inflation at some point.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 06:52:06 pm
Do you know how bond markets work?

Do you? Do you really think there are enough lenders out there to support the trillions of government borrowing that is going on?

The bank buys back government debt, To do so it has to produce the money to buy it. All it is doing is printing money and using government as the middle man to get it into the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2020, 06:55:42 pm
Yes, and as long as inflation is under control, there's really no disincentive to do that.

Yes, but printing money creates inflation, which is why Canada and the US keep it to a minimum.  There's no free lunch.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:01:20 pm
You are poring new money into an economy that doesn't have the GDP to justify it. That is a recipe for inflation at some point.

If need be, you control that by raising taxes, later, to calm inflation.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:01:49 pm
Yes, but printing money creates inflation, which is why Canada and the US keep it to a minimum.  There's no free lunch.

The US has been printing money for a decade or so.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:02:15 pm
Do you? Do you really think there are enough lenders out there to support the trillions of government borrowing that is going on?

If not, our own central bank can 'buy' the debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 07:18:10 pm
If not, our own central bank can 'buy' the debt.

It doesn't buy it with air, it has to print the money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 07:23:06 pm
It doesn't buy it with air, it has to print the money.

But that money is only virtual and doesn't have to enter the economy - especially when we're talking about rolling over old debt. It can all be done with a keyboard entry, avoiding inflationary pressures.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 07:39:44 pm
But that money is only virtual and doesn't have to enter the economy - especially when we're talking about rolling over old debt. It can all be done with a keyboard entry, avoiding inflationary pressures.

If it doesn't enter the economy, why the hell are they borrowing it? Where do you think things like CERB are coming from and don't you think that money is going into the economy? CERB alone is putting over 2 billion a week into the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 08:01:13 pm
If it doesn't enter the economy, why the hell are they borrowing it? Where do you think things like CERB are coming from and don't you think that money is going into the economy? CERB alone is putting over 2 billion a week into the economy.

The money is already in the economy. The 'borrowing' of the money created new money, and that money created economic activity. Paying it off simply involves exchanging interest bearing dollars for standard dollars.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 08:54:59 pm
The money is already in the economy. The 'borrowing' of the money created new money, and that money created economic activity. Paying it off simply involves exchanging interest bearing dollars for standard dollars.


Thats means printing more and more money. Jeez, why haven't we been doing this for decades cause deficits and debt don't matter. Debt to GDP doesn't matter. Nothing matters, just print more money and dump it into the economy. Wow, just Wow!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 09:08:19 pm
We can have all the infrastructure, social programs and as big a military as we want, we will just print it and buy it because it doesn't matter.

No more complaints about buying pipelines please.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2020, 09:16:39 pm
If need be, you control that by raising taxes, later, to calm inflation.

In theory.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 25, 2020, 09:34:26 pm
In theory.

Raising taxes is inflationary because it raises the cost of living.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 25, 2020, 09:36:46 pm
The US has been printing money for a decade or so.

Yes but the US feds haven't done so to pay off all of its 20+ trillion in debt.  Because they want to limit inflation.  Raising taxes by any significant amount to calm inflation would reduce economic activity.  So they print money when required when it makes sense, like right now because they have a ton of debt and are in an emergency situation due to COVID when they have to spend a ton of money.

MMT has its points.  It says countries with their own currency can't default on their debts, which seems true.  They also say countries can print money as long as inflation is controlled, which may be true. I just don't think it's a wise idea to take the theory to the extreme like some people want, or at least be the first country to try it.  Japan could be a guinea pig.

There's no telling how sustainable this strategy is, because introducing a lot of money into the economy and keeping interest rates low etc. can create economic bubbles.  The role of the fed is to inject money into the economy when it's on a downturn and slow down the economy when things are heating up too much too fast to avoid bubbles.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/money/2020/05/12/coronavirushow-u-s-printing-dollars-save-economy-during-crisis-fed/3038117001/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:13:03 pm
We can have all the infrastructure, social programs and as big a military as we want, we will just print it and buy it because it doesn't matter.

No more complaints about buying pipelines please.

*if we limit inflation, and stay within the actual economic potential.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:13:32 pm
Raising taxes is inflationary because it raises the cost of living.

No - not in the least. Taxing removes discretionary spending from the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on June 25, 2020, 10:15:00 pm

Thats means printing more and more money. Jeez, why haven't we been doing this for decades cause deficits and debt don't matter. Debt to GDP doesn't matter. Nothing matters, just print more money and dump it into the economy. Wow, just Wow!

You don't print actual money - you convert interest bearing dollars to real dollars in the ether. This, of course, is completely a theoretical exercise. There's no reason we'd want to pay our debt off. Debt, deficits, and interest bearing dollars are healthy for the economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2020, 12:00:37 am
You don't print actual money - you convert interest bearing dollars to real dollars in the ether. This, of course, is completely a theoretical exercise. There's no reason we'd want to pay our debt off. Debt, deficits, and interest bearing dollars are healthy for the economy.

 :o
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on June 26, 2020, 02:20:12 am
So a group of 19 prominent Canadian idiots wrote an open letter urging Trudeau to release Meng Wanzhou:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/letter-release-meng-1.5625669

What a cosmically stupid idea that is. 

Thankfully Trudeau dismissed the idea.  While I don't think the PM is exactly the brightest guy, I'm very much relieved that he's smarter than the 19 prominent Canadian morons who wrote that letter. 

When I heard about the letter I thought it would be a bunch of clueless beatniks behind it.  But no, when you look at the list of names on the list, you see well known politicians, ambassadors, a Supreme Court justice, and so on. Louise Arbour, Allan Rock, Ed Broadbent, Lloyd Axworthy, and several others you'll probably recognize.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on June 26, 2020, 11:08:41 am
So a group of 19 prominent Canadian idiots wrote an open letter urging Trudeau to release Meng Wanzhou:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/letter-release-meng-1.5625669

What a cosmically stupid idea that is. 

Thankfully Trudeau dismissed the idea.  While I don't think the PM is exactly the brightest guy, I'm very much relieved that he's smarter than the 19 prominent Canadian morons who wrote that letter. 

When I heard about the letter I thought it would be a bunch of clueless beatniks behind it.  But no, when you look at the list of names on the list, you see well known politicians, ambassadors, a Supreme Court justice, and so on. Louise Arbour, Allan Rock, Ed Broadbent, Lloyd Axworthy, and several others you'll probably recognize.

 -k

He certainly canít release her now.   Canada should have probably taken more care about doing the Americanís political bidding in the first place though.  That would have been the time to be cautious and make sure the ramifications of this were looked at first.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on June 26, 2020, 06:35:06 pm
So a group of 19 prominent Canadian idiots wrote an open letter urging Trudeau to release Meng Wanzhou:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/letter-release-meng-1.5625669

What a cosmically stupid idea that is. 

Thankfully Trudeau dismissed the idea.  While I don't think the PM is exactly the brightest guy, I'm very much relieved that he's smarter than the 19 prominent Canadian morons who wrote that letter. 

When I heard about the letter I thought it would be a bunch of clueless beatniks behind it.  But no, when you look at the list of names on the list, you see well known politicians, ambassadors, a Supreme Court justice, and so on. Louise Arbour, Allan Rock, Ed Broadbent, Lloyd Axworthy, and several others you'll probably recognize.

 -k

What is the provenance of this letter? We know who signed it but who wrote it, put this group together and why?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on June 29, 2020, 08:02:54 pm
We should all be disturbed by this:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/bill-horrace-war-crimes-london-ontario-canada-1.5624295

Canadian authorities knew an accused Liberian war criminal was alive, well and living freely in this country for at least a decade before he was gunned down during a violent home invasion in London, Ont.
...
On Tuesday, the London Police Service confirmed the Bill Horace killed in the Sunday morning home invasion was the same Bill Horace who served as a rebel commander under Charles Taylor a former African warlord and convicted war criminal.
...
The group Global Research and Justice Project (GRJP), based in Liberia, has wanted Horace tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity under international law, said Hassan Bility, the executive director GRJP.
...
Bility said unlike authorities in the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Finland, Switzerland and Belgium, who aggressively pursue the prosecution of international war criminals, Canada is a laggard that is rarely stirred into action, even when a monster accused of murdering unarmed civilians may be living in our midst.  "Canada is not very enthusiastic," he said. "The Canadian authorities they just don't get moved."
...
Bility said the allegations against Horace include the murders of dozens of unarmed civilians, including the massacre of 60 people at an abandoned Liberian palm plantation, the alleged execution-style killings of five people in the Liberian port of Buchanan City, the alleged murder of an American logging magnate named Rob Huff and an unspecified number of alleged killings while serving directly under Charles Taylor at his wartime headquarters in Bonga City.
...
Valerie Oosterveld, a law professor and expert on war crime law at Western University, said the reason for that has nothing to do with law or justice. Rather, it all comes down to money.  "These cases are relatively rare because of budgetary reasons, to be honest," she said.
...
War crimes trials are very expensive because investigators must be sent to the country where the crime occurred, Oosterveld said. "You have to send investigators from Canada, for example, and if we're talking about [the Horace] case to Liberia, to gather evidence and then identify witnesses who could testify," she said.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on June 29, 2020, 09:18:05 pm
More disturbing is hand-picking a charity, close to the Trudeau family, to deal with $900Million in government grants.  Very unethical.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5631278
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on July 23, 2020, 07:33:04 pm
More disturbing is hand-picking a charity, close to the Trudeau family, to deal with $900Million in government grants.  Very unethical.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5631278


Boy, was I ever wrong about the way I felt about this when you posted it. I'll be disappointed if Morneau doesn't resign tomorrow, and if Trudeau isn't reigned in somehow.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on July 23, 2020, 07:38:51 pm
On the other hand, S&P and Moody's demonstrated how far out of it Fitch was with their credit downgrade for Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 23, 2020, 08:12:49 pm

Boy, was I ever wrong about the way I felt about this when you posted it. I'll be disappointed if Morneau doesn't resign tomorrow, and if Trudeau isn't reigned in somehow.

Don't know much about the Liberal talent pool for potential finance ministers but I have to think Freeland is more credible than Trudeau right now. At least she has been able to avoid controversy. Disregarding Blackface which was some time ago, the Aga Khan, India dressup, SNC and now WE have all come since JT has been PM. Are these guys slow learners, stupid or just so entitled they don't give a s**t? I really have to wonder.

Morneau may fall on his sword but I don't see JT going unless forced out by caucus.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on July 23, 2020, 10:09:33 pm
Don't know much about the Liberal talent pool for potential finance ministers but I have to think Freeland is more credible than Trudeau right now. At least she has been able to avoid controversy. Disregarding Blackface which was some time ago, the Aga Khan, India dressup, SNC and now WE have all come since JT has been PM. Are these guys slow learners, stupid or just so entitled they don't give a s**t? I really have to wonder.

Morneau may fall on his sword but I don't see JT going unless forced out by caucus.

Talent pool -

Duclos has a PhD from the London School of Economics and was a professor of economics at Laurentian,

 Wilkinson is a Rhodes Scholar in economics (among other things) and has a masters economics (again, among other things),

 Bains is an FCPA and has extensive financial experience in the private sector,

and Joyce Murray is an MBA who graduated at the top of her class at SFU (Deans Convocation Medal) with much experience. There are other people with lower levels of experience. Probably the most talented cabinet weíve ever had in this and other areas tbh.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on July 24, 2020, 12:33:37 am
To me it feels like Bill Morneau is being set up to take the bullet for Trudeau.

I listened to this program today:  https://www.cpac.ca/en/programs/in-committee-house-of-commons/episodes/90012427/

It only added to my impression that the WE organization is pretty questionable. From the real estate holdings to the accusations of exploitation of young volunteers to the transfer of money between different arms of the organization, to the structure of the organization, it all seems ... odd. Jesse Brown talked about all of that stuff at some length to the House committee.  Vivian Krause added some interesting bits (a long with some unsubstantiated speculation). Krause talked about WE's partnerships with large corporations, as well as their privacy policy which states that they can provide your data to 3rd parties.

The impression I get is that WE is basically a way to monetize "wokeness".


So Bill Morneau took a $100,000 vacation in 2017, during which he received $41,000 of freebies from WE which he didn't bother paying back until this week.  And he has a daughter who works for WE, and another daughter whose book was promoted by WE.   That's all pretty damaging, but is that the real end game?  $41,000 is pocket-change for the Morneau family, isn't it?  He could get his daughter a job with a few phone calls. It seems like none of this would be worth the trouble for a guy like Morneau.

Ditto the Trudeaus. It's not like any of them need the speaking fees that were paid to Margaret and Sasha. It's not like Sophie needs whatever perks her gig with WE provides.  Aren't these people all quite wealthy?  It seems odd to me that they'd stick their necks out for the comparatively modest speaking fees and travel perks WE provided.

All of this seems very unethical, but I'm baffled as to what the point is.  For WE the point is obvious: if you make powerful friends, you can get powerful favors.  But for Morneau and Justin, what's in it for them?  For Trudeau, I am thinking that what he got out of it wasn't so much perks for his wife or money for his mom and brother, but rather a big stage. These guys were willing to treat Trudeau like a big rock star, and gave him a platform to promote his ideas and himself.  Maybe that's how they got him hooked on their kool-aid.


 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 01:17:00 am
It only added to my impression that the WE organization is pretty questionable. From the real estate holdings to the accusations of exploitation of young volunteers to the transfer of money between different arms of the organization, to the structure of the organization, it all seems ... odd. Jesse Brown talked about all of that stuff at some length to the House committee.  Vivian Krause added some interesting bits (a long with some unsubstantiated speculation). Krause talked about WE's partnerships with large corporations, as well as their privacy policy which states that they can provide your data to 3rd parties.

"citizenAuditor" Krause is a total charlatan! ... see past "debate' on the other board showcasing her prior biglyBigTime failures during prior House testimony!


WE Charity Response to Finance Committee Hearing
(https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/we-charity-response-to-finance-committee-hearing-831890925.html)

Quote
- False Claim that WE is "part of the Liberal Party election machine" or shared its database with third-parties
- False Claim that the CSSG contribution agreement was made with WE Charity Foundation, "a real estate holding company"
- False Claim that WE Charity inappropriately owns real estate.
- False Claim that WE Charity was in a financial crisis prior to the CSSG
- False Claim: ME to WE Social Enterprise is inappropriate
- False Claim: Kielburger family real estate benefiting from WE Charity
.
.
*Kate Bahen, lead of Charity Intelligence, was referenced at multiple times during the testimony. She has made multiple inaccurate statements to media over the over the past two weeks. Please see HERE (https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:c03a0163-d5d2-4a22-bd12-094b7252ba70#pageNum=1) for an open letter correcting the public record.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 10:18:15 am
Quote
To me it feels like Bill Morneau is being set up to take the bullet for Trudeau.
I think so too.



Quote
All of this seems very unethical, but I'm baffled as to what the point is.  For WE the point is obvious: if you make powerful friends, you can get powerful favors.  But for Morneau and Justin, what's in it for them?  For Trudeau, I am thinking that what he got out of it wasn't so much perks for his wife or money for his mom and brother, but rather a big stage. These guys were willing to treat Trudeau like a big rock star, and gave him a platform to promote his ideas and himself.  Maybe that's how they got him hooked on their kool-aid.


Tone deaf entitlement? Trudeau royalty syndrome?
Nothing else seems to make sense.
 
Entitlement isn't about money.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 10:27:28 am
(https://i.imgur.com/mv6BSE3.png)

more than funny... as in you're heeelarious!

... in the public domain:

=> The Narwhal's profile on Ms. Krause (https://thenarwhal.ca/topics/vivian-krause)

=> DESMOG Climate Disinformation Database - Vivian Krause (https://www.desmogblog.com/vivian-m-krause)

=> Debunked: Vivian Krauseís Tar Sands Campaign conspiracy narrative (https://energi.media/deep-dives/debunked-vivian-krauses-tar-sands-campaign-conspiracy-narrative/)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on July 24, 2020, 10:34:12 am

Boy, was I ever wrong about the way I felt about this when you posted it. I'll be disappointed if Morneau doesn't resign tomorrow, and if Trudeau isn't reigned in somehow.
Trudeau should be replaced with Chrystia Freeland.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 02:50:57 pm
oh my... isn't this the same guy out there demanding a Morneau resignation?

per 2018 report from Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion: Pierre Poilievre, the current Conservative "Shadow Minister" for Finance, accepted over $21,600 worth of free travel for him and his girlfriend to visit Taiwan.

bigDiff: Morneau has repaid his travel cost... waddabout you, hey PP?  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 02:58:09 pm
oh my... isn't this the same guy out there demanding a Morneau resignation?

per 2018 report from Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion: Pierre Poilievre, the current Conservative "Shadow Minister" for Finance, accepted over $21,600 worth of free travel for him and his girlfriend to visit Taiwan.

bigDiff: Morneau has repaid his travel cost... waddabout you, hey PP?  ;D

Not to justify Poilievre's actions but you do know the difference between a shadow minister and an actual minister?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 03:04:14 pm
oh my! Uhhh... hey member wilber, does this guy cast a... shadow?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/8ZKKRsT.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 03:07:34 pm
That 2018 report said that 1/5th of MP's received $620,000 in free travel during 2107. It would be interesting to know many have since, for how much and were any others in cabinet beside Morneau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on July 24, 2020, 03:11:33 pm
oh my! Uhhh... hey member wilber, does this guy cast a... shadow?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/8ZKKRsT.png)


Again, do you not know the difference between a critic and a minister who has control over the public purse?
 
Looks like WE managed to be something was politically WOKE. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 03:13:03 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Hsy175R.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 24, 2020, 03:32:55 pm
Watch: weakAndy admits he's full of shyte! (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1286688244575412231/pu/vid/1298x720/F-SJWi_A31SAfCRe.mp4?tag=10)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on July 25, 2020, 10:09:48 am
what the lame-assed & ConMedia fails to adequately (if at all) present - public service recommendation!

=> thread reader roll-up of 11 related tweets from @IshatReza

(https://i.imgur.com/tOvvnHW.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on August 07, 2020, 10:54:08 pm
So our Governor General sounds like a bit of a flake.  A few weeks ago we got reports that she and her assistant created a toxic work culture that caused a lot of staff turnover. Today we hear that she has demanded $250,000 worth of renovations, including a private stairway and a gate to keep staff away from her.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rideau-hall-expenses-privacy-projects-1.5676088

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on August 07, 2020, 11:14:25 pm
So our Governor General sounds like a bit of a flake.  A few weeks ago we got reports that she and her assistant created a toxic work culture that caused a lot of staff turnover. Today we hear that she has demanded $250,000 worth of renovations, including a private stairway and a gate to keep staff away from her.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rideau-hall-expenses-privacy-projects-1.5676088

 -k

The stupid thing is that the government acquiesced to these silly demands.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 09, 2020, 12:53:02 pm
StatsCan with the July jobs report... continuing on towards pre-COVID numbers!

=> jobs restored 3 months in a row --- 1.66 million jobs added back to Canadian economy the past 3 months

=> 55% recovery in jobs lost in Mar & Apr

=> unemployment rate now at 10.9%... down from 14% in May

by the by, a most pleasant change from CBC! Fact based Catherine Cullen appearing more often (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1292110088707158017/pu/vid/1280x720/dEQImAhiIcFc50Jv.mp4?tag=10)... hey Vassy, Rosemary, take note. And you too Evan - especially, you too!

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 18, 2020, 08:14:17 am
So... anything new ?   :)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Boges on August 18, 2020, 08:28:38 am
So... anything new ?   :)

Morneau never planned to run more than twice.  :D

What a lame excuse for being canned by JT.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 08:45:33 am
Morneau never planned to run more than twice.  :D

What a lame excuse for being canned by JT.

lame? What's lame... really, really, really lame is yet another FuckerFife anonymous sourced G&M hit-job on Morneau, followed up by the many times over referenced Reuters article - which actually drawed upon FuckerFife's original swill. Job well done ConMedia et al!

apparently, to some, its a hard swallow to accept globalist Morneau aspires to lead the OECD - go figure, hey member Boges!

hey member Boges, is pigeonPierre okay with Freeland as Finance Minister?  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 18, 2020, 10:36:01 am
You really shouldn't call people names, Waldo...  :'(
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Boges on August 18, 2020, 11:29:48 am

apparently, to some, its a hard swallow to accept globalist Morneau aspires to lead the OECD - go figure, hey member Boges!


Very hard.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2020, 11:58:11 am
Well, now that's settled on to the next fiasco.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2020, 01:32:12 pm
Morneau out, Freeland in. Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 05:06:50 pm
hey member squiggy - thanks for the dumbTag... now RUDENESS REDACTED BY MODERATOR HARDNER!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 05:07:54 pm
Well, now that's settled on to the next fiasco.

manufactured CPC/Scheer/#PigeonPierre "fiasco"
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 05:14:41 pm
apparently, to some, its a hard swallow to accept globalist Morneau aspires to lead the OECD - go figure, hey member Boges!

hey member Boges, is #PigeonPierre okay with Freeland as Finance Minister?  ;D
Very hard.

why so hard? Morneau can stand on the merits of Canada's Covid response... and now has a want for a greater (OECD) platform. What does it say about you (and your conservative bent) that you can't... won't accept Morneau sees an opening where he can have even more influence - why the need to be so negative, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 18, 2020, 06:48:06 pm
@waldo your insult was redacted by me

Other than that - your presence on the thread is warmly welcomed
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 18, 2020, 06:50:29 pm
Freeland's star is as high as it can get, with one exception.

When do we think she will be PM ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on August 18, 2020, 08:11:54 pm
Freeland's star is as high as it can get, with one exception.

When do we think she will be PM ?

Hopefully sooner rather than later....

If the Libs were smart, they would stage a coup (democratically speaking, of course).  The corruption with Trudeau has gotten to the stinky stage.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 09:26:23 pm
hey member squiggy - thanks for the dumbTag... now RUDENESS REDACTED BY MODERATOR HARDNER!

how rude of you... delusions of grandeur Hardner! You started the thread - that's your only moderatorProwess!  ;D

here's a thought - why not target your delusions of grandeur toward member squiggy and his dipshyte need to tagPostsDumb - how about you put some attention thataway, hey! So long as that lil'Phacker continues his dumbTagn', you can be sure the waldo will respond, hey moderatorHardner!!!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 09:27:53 pm
@waldo your insult was redacted by me

Other than that - your presence on the thread is warmly welcomed

it was a term of endearment! Again, the RUDENESS REDACTED BY MODERATOR HARDNER! member squiggy continues to dumbTag posts... because he's a snivellingSnot!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 18, 2020, 09:47:18 pm
c'mon... Harper used perogyPower 4 times! How soon, how convenient for CONDP members to forget this as they rise up against the powerOfPerogy exercised by PM Trudeau/Liberal government!

forces a confidence vote - now who wants an election... let's see, hey!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 18, 2020, 10:32:11 pm
No matter, Carney will be the real finance minister.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 18, 2020, 11:40:17 pm
No matter, Carney will be the real finance minister.

Doubtful. Freeland is no slouch in anything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 19, 2020, 08:35:44 am
1. You started the thread - that's your only moderatorProwess!  ;D

2. why not target your delusions of grandeur toward member squiggy and his dipshyte need to tagPostsDumb - how about you put some attention thataway, hey!
1. Correct
2. How come ?  This come: Tagging a post as 'dumb' doesn't tag a PERSON as 'dumb'.  It's the difference between a harangue and an insult, I suppose.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: cybercoma on August 19, 2020, 10:18:03 am
Doubtful. Freeland is no slouch in anything.
It's hilarious that people keep underestimating her. She's going to be a great Prime Minister one day.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JuniperRose on August 19, 2020, 11:03:16 am
c'mon... Harper used perogyPower 4 times! n... let's see

So?  That's irrelevant because we want better, and not more of the same. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 11:46:28 am
c'mon... Harper used perogyPower 4 times! How soon, how convenient for CONDP members to forget this as they rise up against the powerOfPerogy exercised by PM Trudeau/Liberal government!

forces a confidence vote - now who wants an election... let's see, hey!

So?  That's irrelevant because we want better, and not more of the same.

which you're getting! Harper Conservatives prorogued to avoid a confidence vote - PM Trudeau/Liberals prorogued to reset the government's policy and legislative agenda... the prior 'Throne Speech and related policy', of course, had no mention/reference to COVID-19. And as I said, most pointedly, this perogy forces a confidence vote - so let's just wait and see which parties call for an election! Lets just see!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 11:55:19 am
Tagging a post as 'dumb' doesn't tag a PERSON as 'dumb'.  It's the difference between a harangue and an insult, I suppose.

oh really! Your interpretive powers allow you to read the intent of member squiggy's most indiscriminate tagging, hey! I particularly relish those posts where its clear someone has spent time researching the related subject post - perhaps even crafting a related graphic... only to have the snivelingSnot throw down a dumbTag - a tagging that most certainly is aimed at the originator, not the subject post!

and gravy has flowed once again. It's clear member squiggy takes exception to having his posts similarly tagged 'dumb'... he once again has retaliated to my purposeful tagging his most recent posts as dumb! Member squiggy retaliation that has him similarly dumb tagging all my most recent posts. Apparently the poor lil' phacker has some real thin skin!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JuniperRose on August 19, 2020, 12:09:51 pm
which you're getting! Harper Conservatives prorogued to avoid a confidence vote - PM Trudeau/Liberals prorogued to reset the government's policy and legislative agenda... the prior 'Throne Speech and related policy', of course, had no mention/reference to COVID-19. And as I said, most pointedly, this perogy forces a confidence vote - so let's just wait and see which parties call for an election! Lets just see!

Yup, but it seems mighty convenient that this prorogue comes just when a scandal involving the PM is being investigated.   A week or two delay to get through that might have been better optics, and perhaps even shown him not to be at any fault. 

On the plus side, they did release a bumch of documents just begore heading out.

I suspect JT would not mind an election right now, as his approval rating is relatively high and he currently is a few points ahead of Conservstives.  Returning in a month with a plausible plan to address social supports and the environment might be enough to get him another majority.

Or not; a lot of people are pretty disillusioned with JT so he may still struggle to get reelected if the Conservative candidate can put together a platform that addresses people's concerns around pandemics, finances and the environment

It'll be interesting.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on August 19, 2020, 12:11:34 pm
Oh Waldo....    when have I ever complained about my post getting ďdumb taggedĒ?   Iíll save you the research time...   the answer is never.   Stop being a butthurt whiny UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER..  If you have an issue with tags, convince the moderator to turn them off. 

If you look carefully, youíll even find some other tags, like ďagreeĒ, that I tagged your posts with.  Hint:  itís the 1 or 2 non-dumb posts youíve made....
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 12:20:36 pm
Yup, but it seems mighty convenient that this prorogue comes just when a scandal involving the PM is being investigated.   A week or two delay to get through that might have been better optics, and perhaps even shown him not to be at any fault. 

On the plus side, they did release a bunch of documents just before heading out.

and those just released docs reinforce what PM Trudeau/Telford stated in their testimony... that the public service chose, then recommended, WE charity. That, PM Trudeau, did not want WE Charity and pushed back on that initial recommendation; in effect asking for a re-do by the public service. As stated previously in this thread, PM Trudeau had his personal sights set on the preexisting Canada Student Service Corps delivering the program... a group PM Trudeau wanted to flourish/expand.

#pigeonPierre has run out of runway!  ;D Just another fake "scandal" pushed forward by the CPC/Scheer/#pigeonPierre and a most obliging media!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 12:24:28 pm
Oh Waldo....    when have I ever complained about my post getting ďdumb taggedĒ?   Iíll save you the research time...   the answer is never.   Stop being a butthurt whiny UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER..  If you have an issue with tags, convince the moderator to turn them off. 

If you look carefully, youíll even find some other tags, like ďagreeĒ, that I tagged your posts with.  Hint:  itís the 1 or 2 non-dumb posts youíve made....

hey buddy, your actions showcase your complaining... for the second time now, you've taken exception to me purposely dumb-tagging all your recent posts. Your exception complaining is to retaliate by dumb tagging all my most recent posts! But sure, you're not complainin'  ;D

you're a dipshyteExtraordinaire... gleefully looking for attention - which the waldo is most willing to oblige. Continue your dumbTagging - I'll continue the same and point out your dipshytery each and every time! Be happy you lilPhacker!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 12:32:42 pm
If you look carefully, youíll even find some other tags, like ďagreeĒ, that I tagged your posts with.  Hint:  itís the 1 or 2 non-dumb posts youíve made....

see member Hardner! There's nothing personal here... clearly member squiggy is post focused and not targeting individuals!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on August 19, 2020, 12:37:44 pm
hey buddy, your actions showcase your complaining... for the second time now, you've taken exception to me purposely dumb-tagging all your recent posts. Your exception complaining is to retaliate by dumb tagging all my most recent posts! But sure, you're not complainin'  ;D

you're a dipshyteExtraordinaire... gleefully looking for attention - which the waldo is most willing to oblige. Continue your dumbTagging - I'll continue the same and point out your dipshytery each and every time! Be happy you lilPhacker!

Retaliation?   Iím posting your dumb posts as dumb wherever I see them.  Nothing has changed.  Tag away!  Thatís what itís there for! 

Iím sure if you as JMT nicely, heíll make the changes you want. 

Or maybe youíll whine and snivel about being hard done by again and slink away.  Seems only you and Shady do that....   

Tell you what....   hereís an olive branch....   I will not dumb tag your posts anymore....   I will only use the informative  button (sarcastically...  but no one will know this) for any post I would have used dumb on previously.  This will spare your feelings and your butthurt. 

I am willing to do this for you UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 19, 2020, 01:08:09 pm
Tell you what....   hereís an olive branch....   I will not dumb tag your posts anymore....   I will only use the informative  button (sarcastically...  but no one will know this) for any post I would have used dumb on previously.  This will spare your feelings and your butthurt. 

I am willing to do this for you UNCHARITABLE INSULT REMOVED BY MODERATOR HARDNER..

geezaz! You gave it away - how Trumpian of you  ;D you're not too bright, are you?

clearly, going to such trouble with this reply speaks to your sadlil' pitiful self. Hey now - when you pull the dumbTag trigger, do you get a chubby?

and just so you don't get away with making this a one-on-one, other members have also complained about your penchant for dumbTagin' their posts. If nothing else, you're an equal opportunity dipshyte!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 19, 2020, 01:14:30 pm
It's hilarious that people keep underestimating her. She's going to be a great Prime Minister one day.

Oddly, my leftist friends all seem to think so too.  I'm a little more guarded but I like a few things about her:

1) Came from journalism, not law or academia
2) Doesn't seem to be a silver spoon kid
3) Negotiated very strongly with the US on the new NAFTA

She could be the political unicorn we have been awaiting.  And we all could reunite with the Waldo even... I'm getting wet eyed...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 19, 2020, 01:38:04 pm
Oddly, my leftist friends all seem to think so too.  I'm a little more guarded but I like a few things about her:

1) Came from journalism, not law or academia
2) Doesn't seem to be a silver spoon kid
3) Negotiated very strongly with the US on the new NAFTA

She could be the political unicorn we have been awaiting.  And we all could reunite with the Waldo even... I'm getting wet eyed...

This will be interesting. Finance Minister can be a step away from PM or a career killer.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 20, 2020, 05:56:04 am
   GIANTESS SEIZES POWER !!!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/8UHuWxw.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 20, 2020, 12:38:10 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/cNGnF2p.png)

which you're getting! Harper Conservatives prorogued to avoid a confidence vote - PM Trudeau/Liberals prorogued to reset the government's policy and legislative agenda... the prior 'Throne Speech and related policy', of course, had no mention/reference to COVID-19. And as I said, most pointedly, this perogy forces a confidence vote - so let's just wait and see which parties call for an election! Lets just see!

(https://i.imgur.com/E3lOhGe.jpg)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 21, 2020, 08:54:36 am
If a post is dumb, I'll tag it as dumb, just to make it clear.

Also, as a reminder, I'm not really actively moderating. I'm not ignoring reports so much as just disregarding them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 21, 2020, 08:58:16 am
It's hilarious that people keep underestimating her. She's going to be a great Prime Minister one day.

Did you see her put David Akin in his place yesterday?

https://twitter.com/gtlem/status/1296536979530829827?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 21, 2020, 10:50:53 am
If a post is dumb, I'll tag it as dumb, just to make it clear.

that one particular member here so liberally... so incessantly... tags posts as dumb is a testament to the most indiscriminate nature of the/his act! That there is a history of multiple members railing against the particular members propensity to tag posts as dumb is a testament to the most indiscriminate nature of the/his act! Do I personally give a flyingPhack about the lilShyte's dumbTagn' - NO, I don't. What I do object to is... the most indiscriminate nature of the/his act as it impacts upon the membership at large and the fact the lilShyte chooses to so wantonly sow division with the ease of a most dismissive dumbTag... irregardless of whether or not a posting member has taken the time to post... taken the time to research the subject matter of the post... taken the time to present a cogent, meaningful and contextually relevant post. To choose to simply liberally/incessantly shyte upon posts with a dumbTag... because he can... is the act of a purposeful disruptor! Knock it off member squiggy!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on August 25, 2020, 12:39:01 pm
No matter, Carney will be the real finance minister.

I don't think the Finance Minister needs to be the best economist in the country, any more than the Justice Minister needs to be the best judge in the country or the Health Minister needs to be the best doctor in the country. These are primarily management roles.  She'll have the best advisors available (including Carney), and she'll have an army of economists and accountants available.

Also, I object to the idea that we need to have a businessman or a stock-broker or a hedge-fund manager as Finance Minister.  I can see why business executives or stock-brokers or hedge-fund managers would like to see somebody with their perspective running the economy. But policies that are great for big businesses and stock markets and hedge funds aren't necessarily policies that are great for the economy at large.  They're increasingly disconnected from the economic well being of the majority of people.

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 25, 2020, 01:20:42 pm
By the way, I just found out O'Toole wants to defund the CBC and turn the airwaves into another corporate wasteland.

I may as well mail my ballot in now... I hate the Conservatives for making me vote Liberal time in and time out...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 25, 2020, 03:58:21 pm
By the way, I just found out O'Toole wants to defund the CBC and turn the airwaves into another corporate wasteland.

I may as well mail my ballot in now... I hate the Conservatives for making me vote Liberal time in and time out...

Apparently, he also wants to re criminalize marijuana.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JuniperRose on August 25, 2020, 05:15:32 pm
Apparently, he also wants to re criminalize marijuana.

So, basically, Conservatives don't actually want to win?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on August 25, 2020, 05:24:07 pm
Apparently, he also wants to re criminalize marijuana.

What.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on August 25, 2020, 05:27:46 pm
What.

OíToole wants there to be tickets for marijuana....  so still illegal.

https://erinotoolemp.com/2017/04/18/up-in-smoke/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 25, 2020, 05:41:12 pm
OíToole wants there to be tickets for marijuana....  so still illegal.

https://erinotoolemp.com/2017/04/18/up-in-smoke/

Finding police forces willing to write them might be a problem.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 25, 2020, 05:57:43 pm
By the way, I just found out O'Toole wants to defund the CBC and turn the airwaves into another corporate wasteland.

I may as well mail my ballot in now... I hate the Conservatives for making me vote Liberal time in and time out...

(https://i.imgur.com/MX1wEF5.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 27, 2020, 06:52:19 pm
Fitch really needs to stop interfering in internal Canadian politics. No one believes that there's any chance that Canada would default on Canadian dollar debt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 27, 2020, 07:26:48 pm
Fitch really needs to stop interfering in internal Canadian politics. No one believes that there's any chance that Canada would default on Canadian dollar debt.

Sorry but if your debt to GDP doesnít qualify you for a triple A rating, you donít get one.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 27, 2020, 07:49:59 pm
Sorry but if your debt to GDP doesnít qualify you for a triple A rating, you donít get one.

If that's true, the US shouldn't have one.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 27, 2020, 10:18:21 pm
If that's true, the US shouldn't have one.

Depends on the agency. It doesn't with some.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 08:44:17 am
Depends on the agency. It doesn't with some.

It does with Fitch. That's the point. They're the ones obsessed with gross government debt (the others use the net numbers). The US owes 21% more of GDP than Canada, yet they keep a AAA. Canada is in no more danger of default than the US.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 09:43:12 am
It does with Fitch. That's the point. They're the ones obsessed with gross government debt (the others use the net numbers). The US owes 21% more of GDP than Canada, yet they keep a AAA. Canada is in no more danger of default than the US.

Ratings are subjective that is why there are so many and they donít agree. Fitch is concerned with Canadaís ability to maintain and support that level of borrowing. So am I.

When Harper borrowed 55 billion During the financial crisis in 09/10, the world was coming to an end. Trudeau borrows five times that in 2020 and itís no big deal. It is a big deal.

Actually it is more like seven times 09/10.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 10:14:07 am
When Harper borrowed 55 billion During the financial crisis in 09/10, the world was coming to an end. Trudeau borrows five times that in 2020 and itís no big deal. It is a big deal.

Neither is a big deal. Every country has been impacted similarly, and it's curious that Fitch has chosen Canada (and Australia) to single out over it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 10:45:42 am
Neither is a big deal. Every country has been impacted similarly, and it's curious that Fitch has chosen Canada (and Australia) to single out over it.

The debt has been increased by 50% in one year, it is reasonable to ask where it will end and will it be sustainable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2020, 11:05:13 am
Ratings are subjective that is why there are so many and they donít agree. Fitch is concerned with Canadaís ability to maintain and support that level of borrowing. So am I.

(https://i.imgur.com/ovitTRh.png)

dang member wilber! Fitch Ratings downgraded their assigned rating for Canada... from Outstanding... to Excellent/Stable  ;D

now you do the rest of the G7 countries - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2020, 11:16:28 am
c'mon waldo, by taking a snapshot from the Toronto SUN... you're just messin' with them, right?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/DwCI7tM.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 12:10:32 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ovitTRh.png)

dang member wilber! Fitch Ratings downgraded their assigned rating for Canada... from Outstanding... to Excellent/Stable  ;D

now you do the rest of the G7 countries - yes?

I'm not concerned with the rest of the G7 countries, I'm concerned about my country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 28, 2020, 01:19:02 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/ovitTRh.png)

dang member wilber! Fitch Ratings downgraded their assigned rating for Canada... from Outstanding... to Excellent/Stable  ;D

now you do the rest of the G7 countries - yes?
I'm not concerned with the rest of the G7 countries, I'm concerned about my country.

3 of the 4 major rating organizations maintain Canada's AAA rating... but you're concerned!  ;D I can also appreciate why your concern doesn't allow you to compare Canada to the other G7 countries - cause Canada, comparatively speaking, rates among the highest - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 01:26:39 pm
3 of the 4 major rating organizations maintain Canada's AAA rating... but you're concerned!  ;D I can also appreciate why your concern doesn't allow you to compare Canada to the other G7 countries - cause Canada, comparatively speaking, rates among the highest - yes?
So why are you and JMT getting all sweaty about being down graded by Fitch if everything is so rosy?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 04:48:27 pm
So why are you and JMT getting all sweaty about being down graded by Fitch if everything is so rosy?

Did you read their release, going on and on about left wing governments? It's bullshit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 04:53:56 pm
Did you read their release, going on and on about left wing governments? It's bullshit.
I did and I didnít see anything of the sort.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 28, 2020, 07:35:19 pm
I did and I didnít see anything of the sort.

The Liberal Party, headed by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, governs with only a minority of seats in parliament and relies on center-left and left-wing minority parties to pass legislation.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/canadas-growing-deficit-raises-fiscal-consolidation-risks-27-08-2020

The fuck business is that of theirs? And what does that have to do with budgets?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 08:45:13 pm
The Liberal Party, headed by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, governs with only a minority of seats in parliament and relies on center-left and left-wing minority parties to pass legislation.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/canadas-growing-deficit-raises-fiscal-consolidation-risks-27-08-2020

The **** business is that of theirs? And what does that have to do with budgets?

How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2020, 08:47:51 pm
The Liberal Party, headed by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, governs with only a minority of seats in parliament and relies on center-left and left-wing minority parties to pass legislation.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/canadas-growing-deficit-raises-fiscal-consolidation-risks-27-08-2020

The **** business is that of theirs? And what does that have to do with budgets?


And what exactly is inaccurate about that statement?

How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 29, 2020, 09:15:03 am
How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?

I'm saying that left wing governments can be just as financially literate as right wing ones.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 29, 2020, 09:24:33 am
I'm saying that left wing governments can be just as financially literate as right wing ones.

And they are saying tha minority governments have to please other parties to stay in power. The same would be true of a Conservative minority government. The opposition parties were pressuring Harper to spend more in 2010, the NDP and Bloc will do the same to Trudeau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on August 29, 2020, 10:38:43 am

How they hell do you think they come up with these ratings, by calling Trudeau and asking him what he would like?
I'd like to know how anyone can look at what's happening in the US these days and conclude it rates a AAA grade. Apparently a stable political system run by reasonably straight thinking people doesn't mean squat.  The Lebanese Pound or Belarusian Ruble may as well be the world's reserve currency these days.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on August 29, 2020, 11:42:11 am
And they are saying tha minority governments have to please other parties to stay in power. The same would be true of a Conservative minority government. The opposition parties were pressuring Harper to spend more in 2010, the NDP and Bloc will do the same to Trudeau.

Yet they only seem worried about the pressure of the 'left wing parties.'
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 29, 2020, 12:08:15 pm
Yet they only seem worried about the pressure of the 'left wing parties.'

Well just look at the spending demands the NDP is making. They are a left wing party.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on August 29, 2020, 12:17:07 pm
Well just look at the spending demands the NDP is making. They are a left wing party.

tell that to Jugmeat - he's lost his way!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on August 29, 2020, 01:42:59 pm
tell that to Jugmeat - he's lost his way!

So what, it is a political reality for any minority government. Perhaps the rating would not have been lowered if Trudeau had a majority. We don't know.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 03, 2020, 11:17:45 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-throne-speech-pandemic-budget-1.5709695

Apparently fiscal anchors are so yesterday.

Hate to do it but it's time to start buying some gold.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 05, 2020, 08:07:35 pm
https://policymagazine.ca/a-fall-budget-2020-strategy-drive-toward-the-future/

Interesting context to the upcoming spending. Canada is far from alone.

Also, net debt, including assets, paints Canada in a far better light https://twitter.com/ifsd_ifpd/status/1302286326214127617?s=21
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 05, 2020, 10:32:13 pm
Last April, for the first time ever the investment company we use recommended putting a bit of our portfolio in gold, so we did. It's up about 11% since then. We have some GIC's coming due and they are recommending putting a bit more in gold. This is a complete 180 for them. Whenever I had asked about gold before the response was always, we don't do gold.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 11:11:16 am
Last April, for the first time ever the investment company we use recommended putting a bit of our portfolio in gold, so we did. It's up about 11% since then. We have some GIC's coming due and they are recommending putting a bit more in gold. This is a complete 180 for them. Whenever I had asked about gold before the response was always, we don't do gold.

I laugh because gold's value is just as fictitious as a fiat currency.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 12:52:12 pm
I laugh because gold's value is just as fictitious as a fiat currency.

Gold's value is determined by confidence in a fiat currency. The lower the confidence, the higher the gold price.
The supposed new economics believes massive increases in money supply will not increase inflation. Gold is a hedge against that being wrong.
Personally I would rather not be buying gold because it doesn't pay a dividend and provide income. It is purely defensive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 01:25:21 pm
A great piece by economist Mike Moffatt today in Medium:

https://medium.com/@MikePMoffatt/interest-on-federal-debt-the-double-whammy-hypothesis-and-putting-my-money-where-my-mouth-is-584a9aeab326
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 02:17:30 pm
A great piece by economist Mike Moffatt today in Medium:

https://medium.com/@MikePMoffatt/interest-on-federal-debt-the-double-whammy-hypothesis-and-putting-my-money-where-my-mouth-is-584a9aeab326
Iím supposed to be impressed by a $100 wager? If he is wrong, his $100 wonít be worth much anyway.
I would be a lot more impressed if he said he was putting a few 100K of his own money into 10 year government bonds at O.5%
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 02:37:36 pm
Iím supposed to be impressed by a $100 wager? If he is wrong, his $100 wonít be worth much anyway.
I would be a lot more impressed if he said he was putting a few 100K of his own money into 10 year government bonds at O.5%

Point out where he's wrong. This is our current debt service level:

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 02:40:36 pm
If you invest $100 K in a ten year government bond at 0.5 % that has your interest taxed at 25% and inflation averages 2%, after 10 years, your 100K will have been been worth less than 85K. Does that sound like a good investment?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 02:43:03 pm
If you invest $100 K in a ten year government bond at 0.5 % that has your interest taxed at 25% and inflation averages 2%, after 10 years, your 100K will have been been worth less than 85K. Does that sound like a good investment?

You know institutions have have been buying them at these low rates for a long time, right? Right now, central banks are buying bonds themselves in many cases as part of their policy goals. These aren't really for personal investment.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 06, 2020, 02:46:45 pm
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-are-four-reasons-why-investors-buy-negative-yielding-bonds-2019-08-21
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 09:18:30 pm
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/here-are-four-reasons-why-investors-buy-negative-yielding-bonds-2019-08-21

All of them are speculative plays, no different from investing in the stock markets only with less potential upside.

What is actually happening with these huge deficits is central banks are loaning to governments at artificially low interest rates. In other words, printing money.

I'm still waiting to hear if that expert is putting his own money into 10 year government bonds.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 06, 2020, 09:21:28 pm
Point out where he's wrong. This is our current debt service level:

In the seventies that level was below 2% and the same justification was used to borrow more and by the nineties it was over 6%. You believe that can never happen again. I don't.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 07, 2020, 12:24:23 pm

In the seventies that level was below 2% and the same justification was used to borrow more and by the nineties it was over 6%. You believe that can never happen again. I don't.

I believe it's possible. I also understand the context under which Canada's large deficits will be happening. Everyone who isn't Norway is doing this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on September 09, 2020, 11:42:32 am
OPPO's fall political preview.  Interesting points to me:

https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/71-fall-political-preview/

Prediction of no fall election
Assessment that O'Toole will soon drive hard to the centre
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 09, 2020, 12:49:28 pm
OPPO

before the waldo would even consider listening... does that azzhole 'Jesse Brown' have anything to do with OPPO - directly (as a part of the podcast) or indirectly by way of editing/tailoring what's discussed/presented?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on September 09, 2020, 01:09:16 pm
before the waldo would even consider listening... does that azzhole 'Jesse Brown' have anything to do with OPPO - directly (as a part of the podcast) or indirectly by way of editing/tailoring what's discussed/presented?

He doesn't have a hand in the contest AFAIK.

Does it really take one bad story for you to bear such a grudge against a news outlet though ?  Do you spit on the ground when you see the Globe and Mail newspaper box ?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 09, 2020, 01:11:52 pm
He doesn't have a hand in the contest AFAIK.

Does it really take one bad story for you to bear such a grudge against a news outlet though ?  Do you spit on the ground when you see the Globe and Mail newspaper box ?

hardly ONE bad story! Separating out what the azzhole Brown has done vis-a-via WE, that allowed the waldo to gain understanding/perspective on just what other shyte that azzhole has been engaged in!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 09, 2020, 11:54:38 pm
All the articles i've read state mr Trudeau will be introducing quite the spendy mcspendster of a spending plan during and/or following the Throne Speech, complete with lots of green initiates.  I can see why Morneau and him butted heads.

And now we have O'Toole with his new "Canada First" slogan.  Quite the decision to borrow a slogan from the most hated politician among Canadians (Justin Trudeau a close second!).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 09, 2020, 11:57:29 pm
All of them are speculative plays, no different from investing in the stock markets only with less potential upside.

What is actually happening with these huge deficits is central banks are loaning to governments at artificially low interest rates. In other words, printing money.

I'm still waiting to hear if that expert is putting his own money into 10 year government bonds.

Don't worry we can print money because we can create money on a computer with just a keystroke.  Money grows on trees now and we all ride magical unicorns over candy rainbows.  Cue John Lennon's "Imagine".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on September 10, 2020, 09:55:56 am
All the articles i've read state mr Trudeau will be introducing quite the spendy mcspendster of a spending plan during and/or following the Throne Speech, complete with lots of green initiates.  I can see why Morneau and him butted heads.

Europe is planning to spend the equivalent of Canada spending $100B over the next 5 years for future investment. We risk being left behind in a quickly changing economy if we don't spend.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on September 10, 2020, 11:04:15 am
All the articles i've read state mr Trudeau will be introducing quite the spendy mcspendster of a spending plan during and/or following the Throne Speech, complete with lots of green initiates.  I can see why Morneau and him butted heads.

And now we have O'Toole with his new "Canada First" slogan.  Quite the decision to borrow a slogan from the most hated politician among Canadians (Justin Trudeau a close second!).

What makes you think Trudeau is ďhatedĒ.  Whatís his approval rating among Canadians?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on September 10, 2020, 11:05:47 am
Europe is planning to spend the equivalent of Canada spending $100B over the next 5 years for future investment. We risk being left behind in a quickly changing economy if we don't spend.

Iím not sure why, but many Canadians take their cues from the USA.  Huge mistake.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 10, 2020, 12:26:58 pm
Europe is planning to spend the equivalent of Canada spending $100B over the next 5 years for future investment. We risk being left behind in a quickly changing economy if we don't spend.
Europe isn't a country.  It's also completely irrelevant what other countries want to spend.  If Europe drove off a cliff would you follow them?

I'm not saying we shouldn't spend, it all depends on what and how much.  We are in a recession after all, we will need spending support.  I guess we'll see what he has in store.

It's also a fact that Trudeau's poll numbers shot through the roof when he was giving away hundreds of billions in free money to Canadians, i'm sure that's also part of the calculus.  Sources within the gov privy to the Morneau/JT spat said JT was very focused on polling.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 10, 2020, 12:54:11 pm
Iím not sure why, but many Canadians take their cues from the USA.  Huge mistake.

Agreed.  Canada should do what's best for Canada, regardless of what the US or any other country is doing.

Culturally, Canada is good enough on its own merits.  We shouldn't need Americans to acknowledge us to make us feel special.  We didn't need the Tragically Hip to make it big on US radio for them to be great.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JuniperRose on September 23, 2020, 02:46:32 pm
Listening to the Throne Speech, while I work - I'm not catching all of it, but I'm catching enough to envision apoplectic Conservatives across Canada.
- Women
- Seniors
- Environment
- Indigenous
- Systemic racism
- Promoting French
- Fast tracking immigrants who've worked in the care industry

Way too ambitious, imo.  Gonna need a couple of decades at least to get all that done. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 23, 2020, 02:57:41 pm
Listening to the Throne Speech, while I work - I'm not catching all of it, but I'm catching enough to envision apoplectic Conservatives across Canada.
- Women
- Seniors
- Environment
- Indigenous
- Systemic racism
- Promoting French
- Fast tracking immigrants who've worked in the care industry

Way too ambitious, imo.  Gonna need a couple of decades at least to get all that done.

As long as it sounds good.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 23, 2020, 03:02:41 pm
Dollar down almost half a cent. Related?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 24, 2020, 09:49:33 pm
That Throne speech/national address was a lot tamer than thought.

National daycare program.  Probably never going to happen.  Education is in the control of the provinces, they'd fight it.

I prefer just giving non-rich people the money and letting them look after their own early childhood education.  If there's demand for more childcare, people will open those businesses.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 24, 2020, 10:29:18 pm
That Throne speech/national address was a lot tamer than thought.

National daycare program.  Probably never going to happen.  Education is in the control of the provinces, they'd fight it.

I prefer just giving non-rich people the money and letting them look after their own early childhood education.  If there's demand for more childcare, people will open those businesses.

Basically a rehash of most of the promises from the last throne speech. Evidently it was necessary to prorogue Parliament for that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on September 25, 2020, 12:30:09 am
Basically a rehash of most of the promises from the last throne speech. Evidently it was necessary to prorogue Parliament for that.

 ;D c'mon member wilber... I've heard/read the exact same summation from 3 CPC members; granted, you're a little weak in also not mentioning the perogy covering up the fake trumped-up WE Charity thingee!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on September 25, 2020, 09:26:59 am
;D c'mon member wilber... I've heard/read the exact same summation from 3 CPC members; granted, you're a little weak in also not mentioning the perogy covering up the fake trumped-up WE Charity thingee!

Well other than some new pandemic spending, what exactly was new in this speeach?

I havenít but now that you mention it, the perogy thing did shut that down as well.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2020, 02:06:47 pm
so... the relentless WE Charity nattering of CPC #PigeonPierre and NDP CharlieLingus has emboldened the CPC to want to bring forward a voting motion to create a special committee, "to probe the government's {presumed} ethical lapses & pandemic response spending"... a committee that CPC leader O'Tool has actually called an "anti-corruption committee".

with the government alternatively proposing to strike a special committee with a narrower mandate to review federal COVID-19 program spending, PM Trudeau has declared the proposed CPC motion... a confidence motion with a related election call.

Quote from: PM Justin Trudeau
We have rolled out unprecedented measures to support Canadians, to support small businesses, to support families, to support communities right across the country, and we feel that parliamentarians should in this exceptional time have an ability to look very carefully at all that spending. And that's why we're proposing this special committee.

But it will be up to parliamentarians and the opposition to decide whether they want to make this minority Parliament work, or whether they've lost confidence in this government's ability to manage this pandemic and continue to govern this country during this crisis.

it's only coincidental that, today:

=> NDP leader Singh formally announces Margaret Trudeau should be off-limits to any considerations of scrutinizing the WE Charity... this after CharlieLingus has spent months demonizing her.

=> CharlieLingus announces he's done with twitter
(https://i.imgur.com/gB59qCx.png)

=> CPC leader O'Tool asks to have his beer held... and rushes forward to amend the motion stating it has been amended to include language specifying that creating the committee should not be deemed grounds to order an election.  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 20, 2020, 02:54:47 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/gB59qCx.png)

CharlieLingus announces



Which of the toxic cesspool hate bots on Twitter are you Waldo?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 20, 2020, 06:52:00 pm
Which of the toxic cesspool hate bots on Twitter are you Waldo?

member squiggy, my post offered you several aspects to comment on; yet, somehow you could only rise sink to this level. It gives me pause to wonder are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FVKo9vwIaY

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on October 21, 2020, 01:18:15 pm
Be nice.

Be Harder nice.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 01:20:25 pm
so... the relentless WE Charity nattering of CPC #PigeonPierre and NDP CharlieLingus has emboldened the CPC to want to bring forward a voting motion to create a special committee, "to probe the government's {presumed} ethical lapses & pandemic response spending"... a committee that CPC leader O'Tool has actually called an "anti-corruption committee".

with the government alternatively proposing to strike a special committee with a narrower mandate to review federal COVID-19 program spending, PM Trudeau has declared the proposed CPC motion... a confidence motion with a related election call.

it's only coincidental that, today:

=> NDP leader Singh formally announces Margaret Trudeau should be off-limits to any considerations of scrutinizing the WE Charity... this after CharlieLingus has spent months demonizing her.

=> CharlieLingus announces he's done with twitter

=> CPC leader O'Tool asks to have his beer held... and rushes forward to amend the motion stating it has been amended to include language specifying that creating the committee should not be deemed grounds to order an election.  ;D

will the government fall? NDP leader Singh - what's your planMan?  ;D

assuming no absences, how this afternoon confidence vote breaks down right now:

(https://i.imgur.com/7wCtAS1.png)

will the NDP abstain and throw it over to the Greens to bring down the Trudeau government? Oh my!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 01:29:17 pm
buggar! The waldo's crack research team missed this gem from this morning - a short while ago:

Quote from: NDP leader Singh
NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said today that his party will not give Prime Minister Justin Trudeau an "excuse" to send Canadians to the polls in the middle of a global pandemic ó an apparent signal that Trudeau's government will survive today's confidence vote.

In a news conference just two hours before a crucial confidence vote, Singh declined to say exactly how his MPs would vote or whether they might abstain.

"We are voting for Canadians. We are voting against an election," he said.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 21, 2020, 02:04:08 pm
buggar! The waldo's crack research team missed this gem from this morning - a short while ago:

CBC yesterday was very biased against Trudeau and made it out to be all the blame of the Liberals if an election becomes necessary. It's not of course and it can't be spun that way.

Otherwise, so sad that the NDP has to play it up in favour of the Conservatives. In the end the NDP won't have the balls to push it to an election. Not to say they shouldn't because they might just as well dissolve into nothing now for all the good they can do. So disappointing for a socially leaning party that has roots in greatness.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 21, 2020, 02:15:16 pm
An election to avoid a committee that investigates Liberal government corruption?   

I donít see anything wrong with such a committee.  Except if youíre a Liberal...   the more oversight of the government, the better.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 02:32:26 pm
An election to avoid a committee that investigates Liberal government corruption?   

I donít see anything wrong with such a committee.

c'mon member squiggy!  ;D Try to keep up - the CPC/O'Tool backed off their proposed committee name - removing the word "corruption" from it! Apparently there was a tad push-back from media wags suggesting the CPC had a preconceived position - go figure, hey!

member squiggy, how about you? Since you've declared "Liberal government corruption"... give your reference points - what corruption? Name it/them! Sure you can.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 21, 2020, 02:37:29 pm
c'mon member squiggy!  ;D Try to keep up - the CPC/O'Tool backed off their proposed committee name - removing the word "corruption" from it! Apparently there was a tad push-back from media wags suggesting the CPC had a preconceived position - go figure, hey!

member squiggy, how about you? Since you've declared "Liberal government corruption"... give your reference points - what corruption? Name it/them! Sure you can.

Why are you and the Libs afraid of oversight?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 02:40:55 pm
member squiggy, how about you? Since you've declared "Liberal government corruption"... give your reference points - what corruption? Name it/them! Sure you can.
Why are you and the Libs afraid of oversight?

oversight of what? Is there a problem for you in actually naming your previously described "Liberal corruption"?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 06:43:19 pm
ok, ok... calm down everyone! The vote wasn't even close: MPs voted 180-146 to defeat the CPC/O'Tool motion, with the NDP, Greens and Independent MPs voting with the Liberals.

carry on!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 21, 2020, 07:48:27 pm
Bummer, looks like JT is going to have a tough time blaming an early election on someone else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 11:05:30 pm
geezaz - purrfect! From the notSoWaybackMachine, here's Harper Minister #PigeonPierre responding to an NDP question concerning documents received as a part of an NDP Access To Information request (https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1317215113968013312/pu/vid/960x640/-elPcCEfvhlQBH1h.mp4?tag=10)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 21, 2020, 11:14:45 pm
killer article from journalist 'Dale Smith'... Obfuscating jurisdiction to score points (https://looniepolitics.com/obfuscating-jurisdiction-to-score-points/)

Quote
It seems to come as a surprise to many people that Canada is a highly decentralized federation, with a constitutionally entrenched division of powers that prevents the federal government from blundering its way into the affairs of the provinces.  Sure, there are a few areas of shared jurisdiction that come with some push and pull between different levels of government, and there are places where the federal government plays a role that largely involves the transfer of funds to provinces for specific outcomes, or to ensure equal levels of access from province to province.  And yet, listening to politicians at both the federal and provincial levels of government, particularly lately, there seems to be no shortage of confusion as to just how much power and authority the federal government possesses in a myriad of portfolios.
.
Since the onset of the pandemic, jurisdictional confusion seems to have exploded.  Everyone has demanded that the federal government do something about rent (when landlord/tenant legislation is provincial), long-term care (again, provincial jurisdiction that the federal government provided military and Canadian Red Cross support with upon the request of the provinces), paid sick leave (about 90 percent provincial jurisdiction Ė federally regulated sectors include banking, telecom and transportation), and public health measures (which they provided lab capacity and contract tracers to provinces upon demand).  And the federal government got creative about how it could leverage its spending power to help provinces, but it wasnít always successful (the commercial rent subsidy or disability support top-ups) because they donít have the appropriate levers or databases that can provide that kind of direct support.  But that hasnít stopped either opposition parties or even some provinces from complaining, when those provincial governments havenít stepped up to solve things that are clearly in their jurisdiction.  Some provinces, like Alberta, decided to lay off school workers in their own jurisdiction and put them onto federal support payments, in a bout of spectacularly cynical buck-passing, and got away with it because of this deliberate confusion in the public sphere.
.
Of course, the opposition parties and the premiers know that there are jurisdictional issues, but they have been content to ignore the realities of them for the sake of playing politics.  For the opposition, itís a cynical game of making it look like the federal government is sitting on their hands when they in fact lack the proper levers to take meaningful action Ė and they know it.  For premiers, itís a kind of learned helplessness, insisting that the federal government needs to provide money or direction, or guidance, or to ďtake the leadĒ when itís something that they can do on their own.

If the federal government did assert jurisdiction (likely through emergency powers), they would immediately cry bloody murder, that their constitutional rights were being trampled on, and that the division of powers exists for a reason, but in the meantime, they could take advantage of the fact that all eyes are focused on Ottawa, leaving them to escape accountability for their failures in the pandemic.  And what is most frustrating is the fact that media have been complicit in this, abiding by the ethos that nobody cares about jurisdiction in a pandemic Ė except they should, because the federal government canít invent levers it doesnít have, and the premiers need to be held to account for their own failings.  Playing into the cynical games of politicians who obfuscate jurisdictional questions leaves that accountability in doubt.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 24, 2020, 10:10:35 am
The Conservatives are risking crippling Canada's medical device industry with their shenanigans. Dr. Fisman is having none of it:

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1319804634546974720?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 11:44:02 am
oversight of what?
The public's domain, especially that which exists behind closed doors in-camera.  Anything less is a corruption of the oft-stated dedication to transparency that virtually every political party, politician and their lickspittles claim to uphold.

I wouldn't btw waste my time putting responsibility for this oversight in the hands of politicians - it needs to be in ours.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 24, 2020, 11:56:16 am
The public's domain, especially that which exists behind closed doors in-camera.  Anything less is a corruption of the oft-stated dedication to transparency that virtually every political party, politician and their lickspittles claim to uphold.

I wouldn't btw waste my time putting responsibility for this oversight in the hands of politicians - it needs to be in ours.

yabut... cabinet confidence is a legitimate thing/need. In any case, my question was more focused on the fact there are existing committees in place to explore many of the wet-dreams of CPC/O'toolites
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 24, 2020, 12:16:27 pm
yabut... cabinet confidence is a legitimate thing/need.
No, secrecy in the public's domain is just plain wrong and inappropriate. Politicians who can't inspire confidence with the things they say in secret do not deserve the opportunity to shoot their mouths off in public.

Quote
In any case, my question was more focused on the fact there are existing committees in place to explore many of the wet-dreams of CPC/O'toolites
And yet the band plays on like it has forever. Outlawing in-camera lobbying would represent the greatest single revolution in the history of human governance. That's my dream but its still pretty dry so...
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 24, 2020, 12:19:01 pm
The Conservatives are risking crippling Canada's medical device industry with their shenanigans. Dr. Fisman is having none of it:

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1319804634546974720?s=20

Sure, politics are being played here but since when has an audit stopped anything?  Dr Fisman protests too much.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 24, 2020, 12:52:28 pm
Sure, politics are being played here but since when has an audit stopped anything?  Dr Fisman protests too much.

Did you read the explanation of why it would stop contracts from being signed in Canada?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 24, 2020, 12:53:08 pm
Sure, politics are being played here...

ya think! So, member wilber... yet another confidence motion? Yet, another... in the midst of the pandemic?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/x6aLsbj.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 25, 2020, 09:13:28 pm
ya think! So, member wilber... yet another confidence motion? Yet, another... in the midst of the pandemic?  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/x6aLsbj.png)


It's Trudeau who makes them confidence motions. The opposition has no say as to what is a confidence motion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 25, 2020, 11:29:21 pm

It's Trudeau who makes them confidence motions. The opposition has no say as to what is a confidence motion.

These motions have the capacity to cripple the government. Theyíre unprecedented. Making them confidence motions is the only way to ensure the NDP votes no.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 12:02:50 am
These motions have the capacity to cripple the government. Theyíre unprecedented. Making them confidence motions is the only way to ensure the NDP votes no.
How do they cripple government?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 12:08:58 am
How do they cripple government?

You donít create a committee with an agenda and outcome thatís predetermined unless youíre trying to cause trouble. We already have an ethics committee and an ethics commissioner.

You donít run an inquest into an ongoing pandemic response. First, there are the confidentiality issues related to medical device manufacture and vaccine/therapy research I already mentioned through Dr Fisman. Second, weíre in the middle of the pandemic. Looking into the response now is like doing an autopsy on someone who is still alive.  Further, the motion would literally require more documentation to be provided than any other ask in history. Itís designed to do one thing - cause trouble.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 26, 2020, 12:09:07 am
It's Trudeau who makes them confidence motions. The opposition has no say as to what is a confidence motion.

no - O'Tool came flat out and stated he had lost confidence in the government. Words have consequences!

Quote from: Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau
The Conservatives put forward a motion that clearly outlines their lack of confidence in the government. The opposition is going to have to decide whether or not they want to make this minority Parliament work or whether they have lost confidence in the government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 09:14:29 am
Iím quite enjoying the theatre coming or of Ottawa. The Liberals prorogued Parliament to try and put a lid on the We controversy. The Conservatives donít really want an election but are playing it for all they are worth to make the Liberals look bad. The NDP really doesnít want an election because they would be the big losers. The Bloq doesnít care as long as they can spin it to their advantage. JT might want an election as long as he can blame it on someone else. Will the Conservatives push too hard and make themselves look unreasonable to the undecided and the NDP more justified in not supporting them or will JT be goaded into calling an election no one really wants? Will the pillow fighting continue or will we stumble into an unnecessary election? Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 12:28:14 pm
The theatre is bullshit. Weíre in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 26, 2020, 12:38:38 pm
The theatre is bullshit. Weíre in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.

Don't push it yet. We might be in a national crisis.
Although I would say it's pretty safe to predict something very horrible and scary. That's when it won't be political bullshit anymore.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 26, 2020, 01:01:50 pm
The theatre is bullshit. Weíre in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.

We also were in a national crisis and they went on summer holidays to quash an ethics investigation.

There's nothing wrong for calling for an investigation into the WE charity thing or the gov COVID response.  There's something fishy about turning them into confidence motions to try and quash them or trigger an election you want but the public doesn't and so can blame on someone else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 26, 2020, 01:09:46 pm
We also were in a national crisis and they went on summer holidays to quash an ethics investigation.

There's nothing wrong for calling for an investigation into the WE charity thing or the gov COVID response.  There's something fishy about turning them into confidence motions to try and quash them or trigger an election you want but the public doesn't and so can blame on someone else.

Trudeau thinks turning to confidence motions plays well for his side. Do you think it doesn't? Or on the other hand, do you think it's playing well for the Conservatives?
Would that be important?  Personally, I'm not prepared to say either way right now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 01:19:05 pm
The theatre is bullshit. Weíre in a national crisis and we have a bunch of children in opposition.

Aww.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 02:03:50 pm
We also were in a national crisis and they went on summer holidays to quash an ethics investigation.

There's nothing wrong for calling for an investigation into the WE charity thing or the gov COVID response.  There's something fishy about turning them into confidence motions to try and quash them or trigger an election you want but the public doesn't and so can blame on someone else.

You donít do a post mortem while treating the patient.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 02:05:21 pm
You donít do a post mortem while treating the patient.

And yet an oppositionís job is to keep government accountable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 02:08:02 pm
And yet an oppositionís job is to keep government accountable.

Playing silly games looks silly to most Canadians. The Conservatives have proposed nothing of substance since March.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 02:32:53 pm
Playing silly games looks silly to most Canadians. The Conservatives have proposed nothing of substance since March.

Accountability is always inconvenient.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 02:33:32 pm
Accountability is always inconvenient.

Accountability is different than this.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 26, 2020, 03:33:25 pm
And yet an oppositionís job is to keep government accountable.

You were vehemently opposed to the NDP in BC calling an election, but you donít seem to have an issue with Conservative Party gamesmanship to push Canada into an election... 

And you claimed to be against the ďpolitical maneuveringĒ....   thatís a bit hypocritical of you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 03:37:11 pm
You were vehemently opposed to the NDP in BC calling an election, but you donít seem to have an issue with Conservative Party gamesmanship to push Canada into an election... 

And you claimed to be against the ďpolitical maneuveringĒ....   thatís a bit hypocritical of you.

No one gave their word or signed an agreement with another party.

They can play their games and try to score points but legislation is not in danger because the Conservatives won't get enough votes to topple the government and if they do, JT will be quite justified in going to the GG and asking for an election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 26, 2020, 03:51:53 pm
No one gave their word or signed an agreement with another party.

They can play their games and try to score points but legislation is not in danger because the Conservatives won't get enough votes to topple the government and if they do, JT will be quite justified in going to the GG and asking for an election.

ďWritten agreementĒ with another political party?  That sounds really naive in a minority government situation.  The people of BC obviously didnít think that the agreement had much force.

And as soon as the Cons think they can win an election, they will do everything in their power to force an election.   Thatís no different, and you would be cheering it on. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 04:58:08 pm
ďWritten agreementĒ with another political party?  That sounds really naive in a minority government situation.  The people of BC obviously didnít think that the agreement had much force.

And as soon as the Cons think they can win an election, they will do everything in their power to force an election.   Thatís no different, and you would be cheering it on.

So written agreements between parties are only agreements if they are convenient? Why have them at all? If you aren't going to keep your word, don't give your word.

Why do you keep making excuses for people who can't keep their word? If you don't demand ethical behaviour from politicians you will never get it.

BTW, the whole Green caucus signed the agreement with the NDP, it wasn't just between Horgan and Weaver as some would like to make out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 26, 2020, 07:03:25 pm
So written agreements between parties are only agreements if they are convenient? Why have them at all? If you aren't going to keep your word, don't give your word.

Why do you keep making excuses for people who can't keep their word? If you don't demand ethical behaviour from politicians you will never get it.

In a minority gov't situation, I don't really think it's realistic to think that some written agreement is going to forestall an election forever.  That's naive.  The written agreement was clearly non-binding on any of them, so that makes it risky.

Quote
BTW, the whole Green caucus signed the agreement with the NDP, it wasn't just between Horgan and Weaver as some would like to make out.

Not true.  The leaders of the NDP and Greens signed it.  So I can see Horgan's point of view that a new leader is a bit of a wild card... 

https://bcndpcaucus.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/05/BC-Green-BC-NDP-Agreement_vf-May-29th-2017.pdf

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 26, 2020, 07:25:15 pm


You can spin it any way you want but the bottom line is Horgan broke the agreement, no one else and he was not given cause.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 26, 2020, 07:47:08 pm

You can spin it any way you want but the bottom line is Horgan broke the agreement, no one else and he was not given cause.

Ok.  He broke an agreement with the Greens...  I am a Green voter, and donít really care. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 07:54:46 pm

You can spin it any way you want but the bottom line is Horgan broke the agreement, no one else and he was not given cause.

And on the other subject, you can spin as you will. The Conservatives are needlessly disrupting parliament during a global pandemic.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 26, 2020, 08:07:49 pm
Ugly US politics of the rabid right probably slanted B.C. voters towar the left. Horgan likely read it as giving him better odds this time.

Great outcome!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 26, 2020, 08:30:11 pm
Ugly US politics of the rabid right probably slanted B.C. voters towar the left. Horgan likely read it as giving him better odds this time.

Great outcome!

No.  It was a local decision.  Nothing to do with the USA.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 08:34:54 pm
Surprising twist - the Conservatives are ahead in the York Centre byelection.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 26, 2020, 08:46:54 pm
Surprising twist - the Conservatives are ahead in the York Centre byelection.

Libs ahead now....   youtube has live results.

https://youtu.be/o3CcLInNJas
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 08:57:33 pm
Libs ahead now....   youtube has live results.

https://youtu.be/o3CcLInNJas

It looks like the Conservatives were better at getting the vote out. The national picture doesn't support this at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 10:06:03 pm
The constantly flipping results are something else.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 26, 2020, 10:52:11 pm
Someone just opened the boxes with the Liberal votes (probably a lot of absentee) and it jumped by 500.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on October 26, 2020, 11:47:36 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/7vXNxg2.png) --- 100% reported in both Toronto Centre & York Centre:

(https://i.imgur.com/r14qw9Y.png) 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: kimmy on October 26, 2020, 11:50:19 pm
I'm assuming that these were both considered "safe" seats for the Liberals?

 -k
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 27, 2020, 12:24:01 am
Playing silly games looks silly to most Canadians. The Conservatives have proposed nothing of substance since March.

All the parties are playing politics here.  No party has any right to play holier than thou.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 12:55:30 am
I'm assuming that these were both considered "safe" seats for the Liberals?

 -k

York Centre isnít safe Liberal but Toronto Centre is.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 12:57:16 am
All the parties are playing politics here.  No party has any right to play holier than thou.

I know you donít like any politician, but in this case thatís bullshit. The Conservatives are playing politics at a level well beyond normal. It needs to be called out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 09:08:59 am


Not true.  The leaders of the NDP and Greens signed it.  So I can see Horgan's point of view that a new leader is a bit of a wild card... 

https://bcndpcaucus.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2017/05/BC-Green-BC-NDP-Agreement_vf-May-29th-2017.pdf

It says they were signing on behalf of their caucuses right above their signatures. It wasnít just an agreement between the two of them.



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 12:40:44 pm
With everything that's happening in US politics I think we can conclude that it's not a good time for Conservative politicians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on October 27, 2020, 12:42:13 pm
No one gave their word or signed an agreement with another party.
A politician lied...aww.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 01:44:10 pm
A politician lied...aww.

Exactly, it's the only occupation where we expect people to lie, even in writing. And we pay them to do it. Sad.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 01:57:35 pm
Exactly, it's the only occupation where we expect people to lie, even in writing. And we pay them to do it. Sad.

It's part and parcel of the democratic system we choose wilbur. It's not perfect but it's probably still the best.
But it can work reasonably well in a socially responsible society such as Canada. It can't work and isn't working in a greedy capitalist society such as the US.

Trump? Seriously?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 27, 2020, 02:55:39 pm
I know you donít like any politician, but in this case thatís bullshit. The Conservatives are playing politics at a level well beyond normal. It needs to be called out.

In what way?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 27, 2020, 02:56:20 pm
It's part and parcel of the democratic system we choose wilbur. It's not perfect but it's probably still the best.
But it can work reasonably well in a socially responsible society such as Canada. It can't work and isn't working in a greedy capitalist society such as the US.

Trump? Seriously?

Why is Trump and/or the USA in EVERY fucking post you make?   
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 03:02:24 pm
Why is Trump and/or the USA in EVERY fucking post you make?

Because the outcome and the consequences are the most important issue in the world today!
I see a fascist regime in the making if Trump can get another 4 years.
And fwiw, I can easily see America resorting to the Kennedy solution if it becomes necessary.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 03:06:26 pm
In what way?

Calling doctors hired by the Conservatives Liberal donors because the Conservatives don't like what they have to say.

Discrediting the safety of voting by mail in Canada, because of course they would.

Endangering Canada's medical device and medical research industry to score political points.

Attempting to act like the deficits is more important than people's lives.

That's just in the last week.

Edit: I forgot this gem

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320849157838512128?s=20

And this one

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320798033706180610?s=20
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 03:07:50 pm
Exactly, it's the only occupation where we expect people to lie, even in writing. And we pay them to do it. Sad.

I expect people to lie all of the time. They invariably do. How naÔve if you believe otherwise.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on October 27, 2020, 03:08:16 pm
Because the outcome and the consequences are the most important issue in the world today!
I see a fascist regime in the making if Trump can get another 4 years.
And fwiw, I can easily see America resorting to the Kennedy solution if it becomes necessary.

Nothing to do with the topic.  Youíre a one-trick pony.  Maybe bordering on troll.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 27, 2020, 03:10:13 pm
B.C. infection rates are looking very bad all of a sudden. If the current trend continues and escalates, it's going to make true fkng believers out of a lot of the 'fake virus' thinkers!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 27, 2020, 03:34:10 pm
Edit: I forgot this gem

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320849157838512128?s=20

And this one

https://twitter.com/journo_dale/status/1320798033706180610?s=20

Is this guy an actual journalist or an ideologue activist pretending to be a journalist?

I have to admit, i don't follow what these idiot politicians say to each other everyday because it would turn my mind into vomit.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 03:43:14 pm
Is this guy an actual journalist or an ideologue activist pretending to be a journalist?

I have to admit, i don't follow what these idiot politicians say to each other everyday because it would turn my mind into vomit.

He's an actual journalist who specializes in Parliamentary procedure. These things are not normal that are going on. As someone who doesn't follow, you might not realize it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 05:47:26 pm
Because the outcome and the consequences are the most important issue in the world today!
I see a fascist regime in the making if Trump can get another 4 years.
And fwiw, I can easily see America resorting to the Kennedy solution if it becomes necessary.

This is the Canadian Politics forum.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 05:49:16 pm
I expect people to lie all of the time. They invariably do. How naÔve if you believe otherwise.

No they don't. I know plenty of people who don't lie.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 05:59:11 pm
No they don't. I know plenty of people who don't lie.

All of us lie. Again, naÔve:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/everybody-lies-how-google-reveals-darkest-secrets-seth-stephens-davidowitz
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 07:16:42 pm
All of us lie. Again, naÔve:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/everybody-lies-how-google-reveals-darkest-secrets-seth-stephens-davidowitz

White lies yes, but what level of lying are you prepared to accept from government and elected officials? What are acceptable lies and what are bad lies or do you care?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 07:37:04 pm
White lies yes, but what level of lying are you prepared to accept from government and elected officials? What are acceptable lies and what are bad lies or do you care?

Not just white lies:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-06/uoma-urf061002.php#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,was%20a%20very%20surprising%20result.

We lie about everything. It's human.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 27, 2020, 08:24:58 pm
All of us lie. Again, naÔve:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/09/everybody-lies-how-google-reveals-darkest-secrets-seth-stephens-davidowitz

Does that mean Trump's lies are ok?  I don't think so.

If you lied repeatedly in order to deceive your boss you'd be fired or at least in big trouble.  We're the boss of these politicians.  They take an oath to serve their country.  If you serve your own interests above that of the country when in public office representing constituents you're just a piece of crap.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 08:56:02 pm
Does that mean Trump's lies are ok? 

It must, since we all do it every single day.

Quote
If you lied repeatedly in order to deceive your boss you'd be fired or at least in big trouble.  We're the boss of these politicians.

First, I don't have a boss. I am the boss. People change the context of things to make themselves look good all the time. They shift blame to make things not their fault. Outside of Donald Trump, most political 'lies' fall into this category. If you actually possess the ability to be even a little bit introspective, you'll realize that you do the same things that you slander politicians for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 08:57:48 pm
Not just white lies:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-06/uoma-urf061002.php#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,was%20a%20very%20surprising%20result.

We lie about everything. It's human.

We don't lie about everything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 08:59:20 pm
We don't lie about everything.

I deal with people all day every day. We lie about everything. People lie about money. They make promises they don't keep. They steal. They commit various levels of fraud. I see it from people in all walks of life every single day.

At the same time, people are good, and generally want to do the right thing - politicians included.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 27, 2020, 09:33:07 pm
I deal with people all day every day. We lie about everything. People lie about money. They make promises they don't keep. They steal. They commit various levels of fraud. I see it from people in all walks of life every single day.

At the same time, people are good, and generally want to do the right thing - politicians included.

It's all good then.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 09:34:03 pm
It's all good then.

I think you're missing the point. Lying isn't to be commended, but politicians aren't special in their lies.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 27, 2020, 09:38:02 pm
If you actually possess the ability to be even a little bit introspective, you'll realize that you do the same things that you slander politicians for.

I don't lie constantly to the people I represent to stay in a position of power.  As an elected federal MP it's a disservice to the country.  I would never sell my soul for that BS, thus i'll never try to run for MP for any of these parties.  Our legislature is a hierarchy, and you typically have to kiss butt while taking it in yours to get to a place of influence like cabinet, committees etc.  And if the PM is trying to intimidate you to do something unethical you either do it or he'll demote you.

Your customers are your boss, start lying to them constantly to try and make more sales and see how many don't come back.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 27, 2020, 09:39:37 pm
I think you're missing the point. Lying isn't to be commended, but politicians aren't special in their lies.

I get what you're saying but we shouldn't legitimize it or ignore it.  People also go through red lights it doesn't make it right.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 27, 2020, 09:42:22 pm
Your customers are your boss, start lying to them constantly to try and make more sales and see how many don't come back.

I do lie to them constantly. I make excuses, I spin, I omit. That's how customer service is done.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 11:54:21 am
I do lie to them constantly. I make excuses, I spin, I omit. That's how customer service is done.

Depending on one's values, lying has become permissible. T.v. advertising contains lies more often than not. Are we conditioned to excuse that or is it that we're resigned to believing there's nothing we can do about it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on October 28, 2020, 12:04:41 pm
There's no way to assess the amount of lying in a culture as far as I know.

What I do know is that verification techniques help establish trust and take lying out of the mix.  While you can't eliminate lying, at a certain point it causes transactions to become dysfunctional.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 12:13:38 pm
There's no way to assess the amount of lying in a culture as far as I know.

What I do know is that verification techniques help establish trust and take lying out of the mix.  While you can't eliminate lying, at a certain point it causes transactions to become dysfunctional.

A good place to witness that dysfunction you are suggesting is to go to a busy mall a week before Christmas. That's our society that allows the greedy sie of capitalism to lead us around by the nose.

I think China is discovering a better way and their is going to have to be exclusive of religious superstitions. That's poison in a 21st. century society.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 12:15:39 pm
I think you're missing the point. Lying isn't to be commended, but politicians aren't special in their lies.

You are saying we should ignore it, which has the same effect as commending it. Why not lie if there are no consequences? Integrity is for losers.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: MH on October 28, 2020, 12:25:04 pm
A good place to witness that dysfunction you are suggesting is to go to a busy mall a week before Christmas. That's our society that allows the greedy sie of capitalism to lead us around by the nose.

I think China is discovering a better way and their is going to have to be exclusive of religious superstitions. That's poison in a 21st. century society.

I have been to such a mall.  I find them wonderful, especially at Christmas time. I don't think it has much to do with religion though. 

A better example of what I'm talking about, maybe, is money.  It was created to demarcate labour and facilitate exchange.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on October 28, 2020, 12:30:29 pm
You are saying we should ignore it, which has the same effect as commending it. Why not lie if there are no consequences? Integrity is for losers.

I'm saying that we have to be realistic in our expectations.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 12:33:44 pm
I have been to such a mall.  I find them wonderful, especially at Christmas time. I don't think it has much to do with religion though. 

A better example of what I'm talking about, maybe, is money.  It was created to demarcate labour and facilitate exchange.

No, religion has been laid aside to make way for consumerism running rampant.
But religion is the root cause of that corruption and a society such as China with a billion and a half people to care for, can't allow that sort of corruption. The wealth has to be spread around to that billion and a half. Just the exact opposite of that which ails the US with it's huge income inequality.

There's little doubt in my mind which system will succeed. The only way for the system that competes against China to win is with bombs and bullets.

That's not an endorsement of communism, it's an endorsement of socially responsible capitalism. Somewhat similar to our intended direction in Canada.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 28, 2020, 01:10:26 pm
I'm saying that we have to be realistic in our expectations.

White lies now and then are ok.  You can expect most people to lie now and then.  Politicians lie more than the vast majority of people in professions, and they aren't white lies, they seek to deceive constantly because many they have poor ethics.  Everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.  The vast majority are in it for themselves and for their own power-seeking first and foremost.

Many mechanics lie, but I found one that doesn't.   His rates are higher, but he saves me far more in the unnecessary work he tells me I don't need to do.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 01:27:40 pm
White lies now and then are ok.  You can expect most people to lie now and then.  Politicians lie more than the vast majority of people in professions, and they aren't white lies, they seek to deceive constantly because many they have poor ethics.  Everything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.  The vast majority are in it for themselves and for their own power-seeking first and foremost.

Many mechanics lie, but I found one that doesn't.   His rates are higher, but he saves me far more in the unnecessary work he tells me I don't need to do.

The democratic system forces politicians to lie. Yet it's still the best we've been able to come up with so far.

Or is it? Has China come up with something better that doesn't require politicians to lie?

Or maybe it's not of the utmost importance that politicians are forced to lie?

For one good example, many bright politicians are atheists but they have to lie about it and pretend they are Christians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on October 28, 2020, 01:58:58 pm
The democratic system forces politicians to lie. Yet it's still the best we've been able to come up with so far.

Or maybe it's not of the utmost importance that politicians are forced to lie?

For one good example, many bright politicians are atheists but they have to lie about it and pretend they are Christians.

It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

Quote
Or is it? Has China come up with something better that doesn't require politicians to lie?

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on October 28, 2020, 02:03:13 pm
I'm saying that we have to be realistic in our expectations.

You are saying we should accept it with no consequences for doing it. It's the same as saying we might as well let people steal because they will do it anyway. Of course they will if there are no consequences.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on October 28, 2020, 03:20:26 pm
It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.

China is actively practicing the only system that can possibly work for a nation that has to care for the needs of a billion and a half people. Remember that they have performed a true miracle by elevating hundreds of millions of their people up out of poverty. And maybe stop forgetting that Gorgeous!

the heads of dissenters must roll for the greater good.

Or at least they will roll if the dissenters don't fall into line with the system.

We're not there yet in Canada but America is close to being there. But then you know that already!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 05, 2020, 03:20:31 pm
UK investigating Bombardier. Could there be another DPA in the future.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/u-k-confirms-probe-of-suspected-bribery-at-bombardier-company-reports-us-192m-q3-profit-1.1518066
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 10, 2020, 11:46:47 am
It doesn't force people to lie, but it does reward lying.

The Chinese government lies constantly, it's all propaganda.  There's no consequences for being caught lying in a totalitarian gov.  China's system is effective in their development, but is also horrifically repressive.  Other countries like South Korea have shown that yes you need a strong centralized government to develop and guide the economy (not least in order to repel outside forces that wish to exploit), but it doesn't have to be tyrannical at the level of China.

We'll have to do a lot more work on this issue Gorgeous but for now I'll just state my position as being that China does no more than is necessary to put down foreign and outside influence than it deems necessary. And in China's case with a billion and a half mouths to feed, more is necessary.

There's no way China can tolerate what's going on in H.K. with US and UK interference to incite rioting and violence. But they are tolerating it for the short term at least.

China is going to be faced with huge challenges to it's sovereignty as it rises to the top. This will call for huge expansion of it's military defenses. The US is determined to translate that to the world as China's military aggression. It's just not so and a large part of the world know it's not so.

When will China make Cuba the elephant in the room, as a counter measure to US military expansionist measures in S.K?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 01:22:14 pm
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 10, 2020, 01:36:19 pm
We'll have to do a lot more work on this issue Gorgeous but for now I'll just state my position as being that China does no more than is necessary to put down foreign and outside influence than it deems necessary. And in China's case with a billion and a half mouths to feed, more is necessary.

China has squashed domestic influence by jailing and genociding Muslim minorities inside the country.  They don't do that to feed mouths.  They do it so the Han Chinese of the country have unquestioned power and control over everything.

China won't be any less ruthless to outsiders to the point that they can get away with it.  Don't underestimate their ruthlessness.  The CPC aren't the humanitarians you claim they are, and they won't stop projecting their power ruthlessly even after all mouths are fed.

The CPC are ultra-nationalists that make Trump look like Gandhi.  The difference between the CPC and the Nazis is Germany didn't have 1.4 billion people they could draft in a heartbeat.  China isn't stupid, they won't project military power recklessly, not until their economy has their tentacles wrapped around most of the international economy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 10, 2020, 01:37:56 pm
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315

That seems unavoidable.  You give people money they're going to go to Walmart and buy Cheerios.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 10, 2020, 02:39:20 pm
I always find your posts worthwhile reading Gorgeous. You have something to say that deserves consideration, even though I may not agree with you all the time.
Stay the course! it's not often anyone dow on this sort of exchange of ideas.

China has squashed domestic influence by jailing and genociding Muslim minorities inside the country.  They don't do that to feed mouths.  They do it so the Han Chinese of the country have unquestioned power and control over everything.

I think you are painting with too broad a brush when you talk about Muslim minorities being persecuted in China. I would suggest that China reacts against individual Muslims to at least the same degree as do American law enforcement. The proof is in the updding of a closer examination of the facts, but the facts must not be biased and tarnished facts as related by some authority that claims China as the enemy.

Peronally, I justify persecution of China's foes within for the large part and I haven't been shy about saying so. That being with necessary consideration of human rights limitations. I truly believe that China has embarked on the only form of government that can carry a very large nation forward in this 21st. century. It is in stark contrast to the obvious failure of the US system of greedy capitalism.

Quote
China won't be any less ruthless to outsiders to the point that they can get away with it.  Don't underestimate their ruthlessness.  The CPC aren't the humanitarians you claim they are, and they won't stop projecting their power ruthlessly even after all mouths are fed.

China getting away with ruthlessness needs to be somehow connected to a reason for such behaviour. I reject any other reason that has been proposed by the US or any others. And so China's reaction to it's perceived enemies within needs to be tempered to the punishment suiting the crime. I haven't heard of any specific examples of it not being so, keeping in mind that treasonous activity by any individual or group of individuals is deserving of the death sentence. If an American has treasonous activities on their minds, they better not try it in China or N.K. either for that matter.

Quote
The CPC are ultra-nationalists that make Trump look like Gandhi.

In what sense? Can you expand on that assertion?
Can there be any doubt that China has performed an humanitarian miracle by elevating hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty? Can this somehow be discounted as just 'for the good of the state', as opposed to being for the good of the people?

 
Quote
The difference between the CPC and the Nazis is Germany didn't have 1.4 billion people they could draft in a heartbeat.


Quite true but needing a proper perspective due to the fact that you're comparing modern day China with Nazi Germany 80+ years ago. And manpower as in boots on the ground is not a major factor in a future world war. For example, the US destroyed and conquered Iraq with human losses that were insignificant in number.

Quote
China isn't stupid, they won't project military power recklessly, not until their economy has their tentacles wrapped around most of the international economy.

And so you're telling me that it's your concerns about China that 'might be', sometime in the future, as opposed to legitimate concerns about what China is now as an aggressor nation.

The world, excepting Nato countries, sees China as a peaceful and legitimate contender for the position of the world's  leading power. Taking into consideration the M.A.D. factor, China has no other possible course than it's current course of economic domination through peaceful means.

This does perhaps leave China open to accusations of economic warfare.
I'm ready with a defense of China in that respect too.

But really, I'm much more into exploring further the issue of China's human rights abuses as you envision that to be. My opening position is that China has been justified in it's behavour as pertains to human rights. both for it's own people as well as outsiders.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 10, 2020, 03:11:19 pm
Interesting article on Covid spending.

This economist thinks too much money ends up going to support goods produced in other countries rather than home grown services.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canada-s-virus-spending-is-leaking-to-other-nations-economist-1.1520315

Itís a laudable goal, I suppose, but completely unrealistic, and possibly dangerous.

Encourage restaurants?  During a pandemic?  Thatís just a bad idea all-around.  Of course service industries get hurt when going out might mean getting a deadly disease.  And weíve seen Vancouver need to tighten up restrictions considerably.  There is going to be even less money spent on service industries now...  and for very god reason.


Wilber, how many times do you eat out now compared to before COVID? 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 04:39:47 pm
That seems unavoidable.  You give people money they're going to go to Walmart and buy Cheerios.

That's still money spent in Canada for goods that are probably made in Canada. I was thinking more on the line of buying foreign made goods on Amazon which does just about zero for the Canadian economy. I don't know how much of this is happening or if it is even an issue but it is something which government should be considering when they come up with these programs. Sending money to seniors who made so much a portion of their OAS is being clawed back was one example of poor oversight. They would have to know who is collecting OAS to send out the cheques in the first place, identifying people who are having it clawed back shouldn't have been that difficult.

Spending a few bucks so restaurants can maybe stay in business is a better idea than adding to Jeff Bezos billions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 10, 2020, 05:44:20 pm
That's still money spent in Canada for goods that are probably made in Canada. I was thinking more on the line of buying foreign made goods on Amazon which does just about zero for the Canadian economy. I don't know how much of this is happening or if it is even an issue but it is something which government should be considering when they come up with these programs. Sending money to seniors who made so much a portion of their OAS is being clawed back was one example of poor oversight. They would have to know who is collecting OAS to send out the cheques in the first place, identifying people who are having it clawed back shouldn't have been that difficult.

Spending a few bucks so restaurants can maybe stay in business is a better idea than adding to Jeff Bezos billions.

I don't understand how you'd control how people spend their money, other than giving them something else other than money, which wouldn't really work.  I get your sentiment I just don't see a solution.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 07:15:39 pm
I don't understand how you'd control how people spend their money, other than giving them something else other than money, which wouldn't really work.  I get your sentiment I just don't see a solution.

You can prioritize the distribution of funds differently.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 10, 2020, 08:00:37 pm
You can prioritize the distribution of funds differently.

If you're getting CERB, lost your job...  you're going to spend it the necessities. 

If you still have a job, you're saving a whole bunch of money not eating out and you're not getting COVID.  Maybe you spend your money on a watch, or some shit on Amazon.  But you still aren't going out, since you want to avoid COVID. 

Sorry...  I think that economist isn't dealing with a full deck if he thinks we should be encouraging people to do riskier things.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 08:15:41 pm
If you're getting CERB, lost your job...  you're going to spend it the necessities. 

If you still have a job, you're saving a whole bunch of money not eating out and you're not getting COVID.  Maybe you spend your money on a watch, or some shit on Amazon.  But you still aren't going out, since you want to avoid COVID. 

Sorry...  I think that economist isn't dealing with a full deck if he thinks we should be encouraging people to do riskier things.

I agree. As I said, I don't know if this is much of an issue but it is something to think about when you are allocating money.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 10, 2020, 09:34:21 pm
I agree. As I said, I don't know if this is much of an issue but it is something to think about when you are allocating money.

I am still of the opinion that a taxable UBI would be the best thing...   enough with the dozens of different programs and subsidies that people get.  Make it universal and taxable.

Quote
There is no question that basic income is affordable. We could provide a guaranteed minimum income of $1,400/month to all working age adults with just a 3% GST increase. https://www.ubiworks.ca/howtopay
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 10, 2020, 10:04:44 pm
I am still of the opinion that a taxable UBI would be the best thing...   enough with the dozens of different programs and subsidies that people get.  Make it universal and taxable.
I doubt that very much in the present economy. Tax revenues are in the tank and increasing rates will make it even worse.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 11, 2020, 06:20:17 pm
I doubt that very much in the present economy. Tax revenues are in the tank and increasing rates will make it even worse.

I'm not saying it will be implemented tomorrow...  but I am hopeful it will be a byproduct of this virus. 3% GST increase to have a UBI (if this is the true cost) is a pretty small price to pay.  It can be brought in gradually, with all the other programs that it would replace being canceled gradually.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 11, 2020, 06:37:14 pm
I'm not saying it will be implemented tomorrow...  but I am hopeful it will be a byproduct of this virus. 3% GST increase to have a UBI (if this is the true cost) is a pretty small price to pay.  It can be brought in gradually, with all the other programs that it would replace being canceled gradually.

Pre Covid, adding 3% to the GST would bring in maybe another 25 billion in revenues. If we install a UBI does that mean we get rid of EI and if so would 25  billion be enough to replace the revenues from EI premiums as well as provincial welfare payments? I guess we should be looking at it but I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 11, 2020, 07:25:24 pm
I'm not saying it will be implemented tomorrow...  but I am hopeful it will be a byproduct of this virus. 3% GST increase to have a UBI (if this is the true cost) is a pretty small price to pay.  It can be brought in gradually, with all the other programs that it would replace being canceled gradually.

What are the limitations for claiming UBI?

Should healthy working-age able-bodied people be able to claim UBI if they're not looking for work or refusing work?  Should people who lose their job simply be able to stay on UBI indefinitely with no questions asked?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 11, 2020, 07:57:43 pm
Should healthy working-age able-bodied people be able to claim UBI if they're not looking for work or refusing work?  Should people who lose their job simply be able to stay on UBI indefinitely with no questions asked?

If not, it wouldn't be universal, would it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 11, 2020, 08:33:25 pm
If not, it wouldn't be universal, would it?

Why would you give it to people who don't deserve it?  There has to be some kind of eligibility requirements.  It's not like you're going to give it to people visiting Canada on vacation.

We shouldn't provide income for healthy people who willfully choose not to contribute to society.  And we certainly shouldn't give them the same income as someone who is disabled or elderly.

Imagine how many lazy people would stay on CERB if it was indefinite and had no requirements.  Imagine how many college students would take a year off and just party or travel on the government dime, many even staying with their folks for free.  Great way to save money!  This isn't humanitarian at all, you'd be eroding these people psychologically by turning them into government dependents akin to children.  We need to treat people like responsible adults.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 11, 2020, 11:13:07 pm
Why would you give it to people who don't deserve it? 

Itís taxed back.  Itís universal so there doesnít need to be a bureaucracy to determine when people need it...  are they qualified?  How long have they been on it?  The bureaucratic mess goes on.  With UBI, itís all handled at tax time.


Quote
There has to be some kind of eligibility requirements.

Yes, there would be.  Resident and citizen of Canada.

Quote
It's not like you're going to give it to people visiting Canada on vacation.

No one has EVER said it would or should.   You clearly have never read a single thing about it. 

Quote
We shouldn't provide income for healthy people who willfully choose not to contribute to society.  And we certainly shouldn't give them the same income as someone who is disabled or elderly.

We already do...   and then we create an entire bureaucracy to manage it.  Thereís no reason it couldnít be scaled, say if you have dependents. 

Quote
Imagine how many lazy people would stay on CERB if it was indefinite and had no requirements.  Imagine how many college students would take a year off and just party or travel on the government dime, many even staying with their folks for free.  Great way to save money!  This isn't humanitarian at all, you'd be eroding these people psychologically by turning them into government dependents akin to children.  We need to treat people like responsible adults.

Imagine all the terrible things....     ::) ::)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 11:24:29 am
Why would you give it to people who don't deserve it?  There has to be some kind of eligibility requirements.  It's not like you're going to give it to people visiting Canada on vacation.

We shouldn't provide income for healthy people who willfully choose not to contribute to society.  And we certainly shouldn't give them the same income as someone who is disabled or elderly.

Imagine how many lazy people would stay on CERB if it was indefinite and had no requirements.  Imagine how many college students would take a year off and just party or travel on the government dime, many even staying with their folks for free.  Great way to save money!  This isn't humanitarian at all, you'd be eroding these people psychologically by turning them into government dependents akin to children.  We need to treat people like responsible adults.

Due to automation it's probably inevitable Gorgeous, but we still have a few years to consider it. Then it will all be in 'who' or what politicans make the decisions who is lazy, etc.

There are a lot more questions involved than what is indicated by the squad's callous spamming.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 12, 2020, 12:06:39 pm
There are a lot more questions involved than what is indicated by the squid's callous spamming.

Every tie you post something, you look like an idiot.  Youíre posts are vapid nonsense that donít contain anything other than memes.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 12:22:49 pm
Every tie you post something, you look like an idiot.  Youíre posts are vapid nonsense that donít contain anything other than memes.

That was a typo squid, it was meant to be the 'squad's callous spamming. You should fix your 'tie' typo too because it's just another attempt at a backhanded insult.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 12, 2020, 12:32:50 pm
That was a typo squid, it was meant to be the 'squad's callous spamming. You should fix your 'tie' typo too because it's just another attempt at a backhanded insult.

Now that's feeble even by your usual standard.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 12:44:00 pm
Now that's feeble even by your usual standard.

You're being very unfair Omni, about an honest mistake I made and then apologized for it and fixed it. Are you thinking that I'm suggesting you and squid and wilbur are spammers?

Let it go Omni before it makes you crazy.

And now back on topic please!! Why do you and the spammers have to always take Gorgeous's ideas to the extreme? He's a very sensible middle of the roader who understands politics a lot better than the ________ who argue his rational ideas. Of course a basic income would have to be administered fairly and without leftist bias!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 12, 2020, 02:03:30 pm
Due to automation it's probably inevitable Gorgeous, but we still have a few years to consider it. Then it will all be in 'who' or what politicans make the decisions who is lazy, etc.

There are a lot more questions involved than what is indicated by the squad's callous spamming.
Automation is different.  If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous.  I would have no problem paying for them to be re-trained, and paying for their income while they are retraining.

The kinds of people who propose these programs are the same types of people who allow their unemployed adult children to live for free in their basement while mom cooks them dinner and does their laundry.  They think they're being kind, but it isn't good for anyone.  We should not be incentivizing people to become dependents of the state.

We have quite a few adult infants on this forum, prone to tantrums/name-calling as well, so their feelings on this are no surprise to me.  They prefer themselves and other to remain infants.  A wonderful way to run a country.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 02:19:59 pm
Automation is different.  If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous. I would have no problem paying for them to be re-trained, and paying for their income while they are retraining.

Well that's very liberal of you! Do you think that could become an accepted talking point for the Conservative party?
I think it might have to be soon but I can't quite imagine how Alberta's Cons could ever go there? You see the problem?

So the proof is going to be in the pudding for anybody that isn't stuck in Conservative never-never land. Here's a hypothetical for you:

A person who was a machinist becomes unemployed and he turns to EI. He is offered a job as a labourer at half the rate of pay ($20) as he was earning and he refuses the job. You get the picture, you're too clever not to. Does that guy become one of your lazies?

Don't hang strictly on the hypothetical, that doesn't get us anywhere. Rather, consider variations to the general theme. So I'm suggesting that will be the point at which the Cons and the Libs could part ways

Quote
The kinds of people who propose these programs are the same types of people who allow their unemployed adult children to live for free in their basement while mom cooks them dinner and does their laundry.  They think they're being kind, but it isn't good for anyone.  We should not be incentivizing people to become dependents of the state.

Each case will be different and therefore have variables and qualifications to consider. Here's on for you:

The kid doesn't need much money and he's getting social assistance, and that's paying better than the parttime job at MacD's flipping hamburgers. Oh, and his twin brother that lives in the same basement room has a mental illness problem.

Who sorts all this shit out Gorgeous, the social worker or the government?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 12, 2020, 03:03:45 pm
Here's a hypothetical for you:

A person who was a machinist becomes unemployed and he turns to EI. He is offered a job as a labourer at half the rate of pay ($20) as he was earning and he refuses the job. You get the picture, you're too clever not to. Does that guy become one of your lazies?

I would say there could be a limited amount of time for the machinist to refuse jobs not in his field while not on EI.  2 or 3 months, or whenever the EI claim runs out?  I dunno.  After that limited period is over the machinist should then be expected to accept whatever jobs are available.  If the machinist were to stay on government income indefinitely that would mean many of the people who used to make good money working in manufacturing would now be stuck on government benefits.  This is terrible for the economy, both GDP and tax revenue/spending, and bad psychologically for the unemployed.

Think of it this way: Government always has only a certain amount of money budgeted to spend on social programs.  It would be far better to spend that money on the people who really need it, such as the homeless, poor communities/first nations, the sick etc than to give it to healthy people able to work but refuse.

Quote
Each case will be different and therefore have variables and qualifications to consider. Here's on for you:

The kid doesn't need much money and he's getting social assistance, and that's paying better than the parttime job at MacD's flipping hamburgers. Oh, and his twin brother that lives in the same basement room has a mental illness problem.
As I said, if a person is healthy but unwilling to work when there are jobs available they should not expect an income from the government after transition benefits like EI run out.  The mentally ill brother is a different case, if they're disabled to the point where they can't work they should be entitled to disability income.

Quote
Who sorts all this shit out Gorgeous, the social worker or the government?

Those are 2 very different jobs.  Entitlement to government benefits should be determined by government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 12, 2020, 03:16:05 pm
If a person is able to work but genuinely can't find a job then I have no problem giving them benefits.  If there are jobs available but a healthy person refuses to work, you and I should not be paying for their income.  It's ridiculous. 
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them. It's ridiculously hypocritical that any society or economy that demands people carry their own weight should also rely on $56 billion (for 2017 in Canada alone) worth of free labour.

https://volunteer.ca/vdemo/Campaigns_DOCS/Value%20of%20Volunteering%20in%20Canada%20Conf%20Board%20Final%20Report%20EN.pdf

Fire up the printing presses and screw the debt-cult's kool-aid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 03:19:27 pm
I would say there could be a limited amount of time for the machinist to refuse jobs not in his field while not on EI.  2 or 3 months, or whenever the EI claim runs out?  I dunno.  After that limited period is over the machinist should then be expected to accept whatever jobs are available.  If the machinist were to stay on government income indefinitely that would mean many of the people who used to make good money working in manufacturing would now be stuck on government benefits.  This is terrible for the economy, both GDP and tax revenue/spending, and bad psychologically for the unemployed.

Think of it this way: Government always has only a certain amount of money budgeted to spend on social programs.  It would be far better to spend that money on the people who really need it, such as the homeless, poor communities/first nations, the sick etc than to give it to healthy people able to work but refuse.
As I said, if a person is healthy but unwilling to work when there are jobs available they should not expect an income from the government after transition benefits like EI run out.  The mentally ill brother is a different case, if they're disabled to the point where they can't work they should be entitled to disability income.

Those are 2 very different jobs.  Entitlement to government benefits should be determined by government.

All of which is true enough Gorgeous, but I think you're taking on an attitude of attempting to win a debate, as opposed to thinking it all through completely. That's the reason why you're hanging on the specifics rather than accept the bigger picture.

So the big picture is:

There aren't enough jobs to go around anymore.
and
Speaking of the US where the situation has advanced further along, there is enough money to make unemployment work if the very wealthy are taxed out of a portion of their billions. Or more appropriately, the very wealthy are restricted enough on their profit making that they never do get to owning billions.

So there we have it for the reality of the 21st. century, and it's coming soon. How soon? Well, it's already here in a smaller way.

And fwiw, the machinist is going to say fk them, I'm not going to dig a ditch. Then vote for the party that says he doesn't have to.

Can a country work within the capitalist system in which the wealth is spread around and restraints can be placed on one's ability to earn billions? Say, in the US where 3 top billionaires earn as much as 50% of the country's people? How Conservative would one have to be to accept that??
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 03:23:31 pm
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them. It's ridiculously hypocritical that any society or economy that demands people carry their own weight should also rely on $56 billion (for 2017 in Canada alone) worth of free labour.

https://volunteer.ca/vdemo/Campaigns_DOCS/Value%20of%20Volunteering%20in%20Canada%20Conf%20Board%20Final%20Report%20EN.pdf

Fire up the printing presses and screw the debt-cult's kool-aid.

You can figure this stuff out too eyeball, but you're tying your hands behind your back when you refer to people as 'entitled slack-assed.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 12, 2020, 05:09:34 pm
All of which is true enough Gorgeous, but I think you're taking on an attitude of attempting to win a debate, as opposed to thinking it all through completely. That's the reason why you're hanging on the specifics rather than accept the bigger picture.

So the big picture is:

There aren't enough jobs to go around anymore.
and
Speaking of the US where the situation has advanced further along, there is enough money to make unemployment work if the very wealthy are taxed out of a portion of their billions. Or more appropriately, the very wealthy are restricted enough on their profit making that they never do get to owning billions.

So there we have it for the reality of the 21st. century, and it's coming soon. How soon? Well, it's already here in a smaller way.

And fwiw, the machinist is going to say fk them, I'm not going to dig a ditch. Then vote for the party that says he doesn't have to.

Can a country work within the capitalist system in which the wealth is spread around and restraints can be placed on one's ability to earn billions? Say, in the US where 3 top billionaires earn as much as 50% of the country's people? How Conservative would one have to be to accept that??

You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away.  People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 05:50:55 pm
You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away. People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

It sure did happen! Immediately following the industrial revolution and again it's happening in the age of electronics and the internet. You need to peruse some statistics on the numbers of people working parttime jobs in MacD's and maybe some research on how many Americans are on food stamps. So your argument is wrong. But in fairness, only wrong to some degree on which we aren't in agreement because we haven't talked on specifics yet.




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Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

All very true! All of those issues need to be considered.

Quote
People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.

Yes, of course on the unintended consequences! But building a shelter and searching for food, as you've mentioned, aren't necessary anymore.

For the sake of it being interesting, tell me what the etc. is?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 12, 2020, 06:41:33 pm
...you're tying your hands behind your back when you refer to people as 'entitled slack-assed.
I didn't. I referred to a society - an aggregate of people. Volunteers are a group within that aggregate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 12, 2020, 07:05:38 pm
I feel the same way about volunteers and the entitled slack-assed societies that depend on them.

Yeah ya did and that's because you think that way.

Quote
an aggregate of people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 12, 2020, 08:35:35 pm
Yeah ya did and that's because you think that way.
Yes, that benefitting from the free labour of others is as ridiculous as what Graham said.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 13, 2020, 11:34:38 am
Yes, that benefitting from the free labour of others is as ridiculous as what Graham said.

'free' labour is a new twist on the topic?
The bad feelings of rightists over allowing people to cut back on their working for a living has got to stop. There's just no way capitalism with no restrictions on big business profit can work for the millions. The way forward has to be in finding ways to spread the wealth at least enough for everyone to have the essentials in life.

Cuba actually does that already because they were forced into doing that which would allow them to merely survive. And now an objective look at how the people of Cuba have succeeded is instructive. Housing and high quality healthcare put an entirely different light on poverty!

They did it with very limited resources so just imagine what countries rich in resources can do!

Yes, we'll miss capitalism and the opportunity to work hard to better oneself, but new ways must be found.

A country doesn't get rich from the backbreaking work of it's workers anymore. Look at that harvester being driven by one man, that is producing enough food for thousands. A country gets rich off of  the labouring of it's machines.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 19, 2020, 02:30:14 pm
You're changing the subject and now talking about a hypothetical future where you're now able to employ some kind of socialist dream where people don't have to work.  There will obviously be some kind of transition period if/when automation explodes.  But that doesn't mean jobs will go away.  People predicted we wouldn't have to work or would have so much more free time after the industrial revolution and it didn't happen.  We really don't know what the future holds.

Having too much free time is and will be bad for people psychologically.  It's fun for a while but many people will get fat, lazy, and useless like a house cat that just sits around and sleeps all day.  Consider what boredom will do to statistics such as infidelity, depression, suicide, alcoholism/drug use, obesity/heart disease/diabetes.  Consider the divorce rate when couples are around each other far more.

People have been forced to get up in the morning and work to survive throughout the entirety of human history, as has virtually every animal organism (search for food, build shelter etc).  Taking that away will have unintended consequences.

Why assume people will choose to do nothing if they don't have to work to survive as opposed to taking up hobbies, getting an education or doing jobs they actually want to do?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Bubbermiley on November 19, 2020, 02:48:21 pm
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 19, 2020, 03:10:42 pm
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.

If I didn't have to work for a living I would probably be doing something useless like being a full time parent whereas now I pay someone a good chunk of my income to look after my kid so i can make money to pay them to look after my kid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 19, 2020, 03:46:09 pm
I have nothing but free time. I ride my bike, play piano, and doomscroll on the internet. A perfectly healthy balance, I figure.

I'm old enough to have that free time thing now too and I have two bikes I ride, one has pedals, the other a 750 cc two stroke, and I like to practice on my Larravee 6 string. My work took my to the far corners of the planet so I sometimes now sit in my living room looking at carvings and various other craft pieces and wonder,"now where the hell did I pick that up". 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 19, 2020, 07:03:09 pm
Why assume people will choose to do nothing if they don't have to work to survive as opposed to taking up hobbies, getting an education or doing jobs they actually want to do?

Some people will do healthy things and some people with do unhealthy things with their time.  If those people are employed they're not able to sit around and do nothing.

There's downsides to working and to not working.  IMO the downsides to not working for society as a whole should not be underestimated.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 09:17:23 am
Some people will do healthy things and some people with do unhealthy things with their time. If those people are employed they're not able to sit around and do nothing.

There's downsides to working and to not working.  IMO the downsides to not working for society as a whole should not be underestimated.

Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 09:32:32 am
Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.

Sometimes stuff just needs to get done and someone has to do it.

But I guess we can just hire TFWís to do the crappiest essential jobs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 10:21:40 am
Sometimes stuff just needs to get done and someone has to do it.

But I guess we can just hire TFWís to do the crappiest essential jobs.

Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 11:34:09 am
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

A UBI needs to come from somewhere and the very wealthy are the only ones with the ability to pay for it.  In the US, it shouldn't be a problem finding the money. Three of the top billionaires make as much as the bottom 50% of their people.

Automation has eliminated probably about half the jobs that existed in the 50's and consequently, half the people are unemployed.

Unemployed in the sense that they are working at part time jobs, two or more part time jobs, or not working and earning money at all.

Unemployment figures have been a joke for many years. And of course there are enough people to do any work that needs doing. But finding somebody to do them in the land of the gun isn't as easy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 11:52:29 am
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors, garbage collectors, the people who work in food processing plants and a thousand other things. so we are the masters throwing the scraps. This idea that we can all just collect a salary and just do the jobs that appeal to us is pie in the sky nonsense. There may be a case for an income supplement but there is none for an income replacement. We already have that with EI, disability pensions and welfare.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 12:27:36 pm
The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors,.....................

The point is, you seem to nearly always miss the point. Saying nothing is better than making up shit that nobody is confused over.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 01:17:38 pm
Nor should the downsides of a system that forces people to kill themselves slowly for scraps from the master's table.

Nobody is forced to do anything.  If you don't like the masters scraps then open your own business and be your own master.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:24:35 pm
The point is, we all need those people doing the shitty jobs to survive ourselves, whether it is janitors, garbage collectors, the people who work in food processing plants and a thousand other things. so we are the masters throwing the scraps. This idea that we can all just collect a salary and just do the jobs that appeal to us is pie in the sky nonsense. There may be a case for an income supplement but there is none for an income replacement. We already have that with EI, disability pensions and welfare.

Literally no one is proposing an income replacement, so if that's what your objections are based on, then they aren't based on anything.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:26:33 pm
Nobody is forced to do anything.  If you don't like the masters scraps then open your own business and be your own master.

Oh for sure dude, because starting a businesses is easy and cheap and a surefire license to print money. That's why so many businesses *checks notes* fail within the first 3 to 5 years.

But here's the thing: more people would be willing and able to take the risk of starting their own businesses if they were guaranteed an income supplement to cushion them should they fail.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 01:28:20 pm
Why wouldn't that stuff get done? A UBI doesn't replace the need for people to work; it would simply ensure people would have a few extra bucks in their pockets to supplement existing incomes. For the people working those shitty but essential jobs, that could be the difference between permanent grinding poverty and an actual better life for themselves and their children.

I see what you're saying but this gets tricky because of the market for wages which works off supply and demand of the workforce.  If the government starts subsidizing lower wage jobs it gives companies more of an excuse to keep those wages low and passes it onto the taxpayer.

People deserve a liveable wage but we also need to make sure it doesn't have unintended consequences in other areas of the market and becomes counterproductive.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:30:32 pm
I see what you're saying but this gets tricky because of the market for wages which works off supply and demand of the workforce.  If the government starts subsidizing lower wage jobs it gives companies more of an excuse to keep those wages low and passes it onto the taxpayer.

People deserve a liveable wage but we also need to make sure it doesn't have unintended consequences in other areas of the market and becomes counterproductive.

On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 01:39:18 pm
Quote from: Black Dog link=topic=919.msg69555#msg69555 date=1605900 393
Oh for sure dude, because starting a businesses is easy and cheap and a surefire license to print money. That's why so many businesses *checks notes* fail within the first 3 to 5 years.

But here's the thing: more people would be willing and able to take the risk of starting their own businesses if they were guaranteed an income supplement to cushion them should they fail.

Nothing ventured nothing gained.  If you don't want the risk then there's zero-risk wage jobs everywhere waiting for you.

Why do you need a guaranteed income supplement if your business fails?  Just go apply for a job.  You can also choose to buy into income protection insurance as a self-employed person. I also know employers can claim certain EI benefits like sickness.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 01:40:32 pm
On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.

Not sure why if the supplement is universal. It's not like we never see cases of companies raising their prices when products are subsidized by government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 01:41:59 pm
On the contrary, an income supplement means businesses would have to compete on wages with the government.

Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 01:42:45 pm
I'd need to look at data for these things with other countries who have tried it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:49:53 pm
Nothing ventured nothing gained.  If you don't want the risk then there's zero-risk wage jobs everywhere waiting for you.

Don't want to risk everything, just get a job says guy who thinks people aren't being forced into wage slavery.

Quote
Why do you need a guaranteed income supplement if your business fails? Just go apply for a job.  You can also choose to buy into income protection insurance as a self-employed person. I also know employers can claim certain EI benefits like sickness.
Quote

So you don't have to worry about going bankrupt and losing everything while you look for a job?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:51:01 pm
Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.

Except there's little evidence higher wages lead to higher prices.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 01:52:16 pm
When collective bargaining was destroyed by the socalled 'right to work' zones, as well as other pressures from the wealthy, they should have realized that sooner or later a UBI would be needed to replace it.

The UBI doesn't need to be called as such, it can be called unemployment insurance, welfare, or social assistance. And now the jobs have been automated into extinction and the wealthy will have to be taxed so those bills can be paid to the unemployed.

The best hope for the very wealthy keeping all their money is found in the US where the people have been brainwashed into thinking it's all their money and the poor are trying to steal their money. It's not working anymore and hence we see their attempts at promoting a fascist regime.

Biden doesn't really intend on making it any better! What can be said about a country that can't even provide quality healthcare for all it's people?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 01:56:19 pm
Not sure why if the supplement is universal. It's not like we never see cases of companies raising their prices when products are subsidized by government.

If we're talking about low wage shit jobs, then obviously employers would need to raise wages in order to compete with the income supplement.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 02:02:01 pm
America's brand of capitalism has failed. And Canada's brand of capitalism is being threatened by that influence from south of the border.

But socially responsible capitalism can work and is working in the world's leading capitalist countries. New laws can be enacted to make it work. That's socialism within a capitalist system.

Yet still, as populations get larger and larger, it seems that China has now adopted the only system that can really work going forward in the 21st. century.

China will fine tune it, regardless of the outside interference!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 02:05:42 pm
America's brand of capitalism has failed. And Canada's brand of capitalism is being threatened by that influence from south of the border.

But socially responsible capitalism can work and is working in the world's leading capitalist countries. New laws can be enacted to make it work. That's socialism within a capitalist system.

Yet still, as populations get larger and larger, it seems that China has now adopted the only system that can really work going forward in the 21st. century.

China will fine tune it, regardless of the outside interference!

fascism?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 02:08:21 pm
If we're talking about low wage shit jobs, then obviously employers would need to raise wages in order to compete with the income supplement.

Not if government is going to do it for them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 02:15:40 pm
Not if government is going to do it for them.

Why would anyone take a shitty job with shit wages if they could make almost as much just doing nothing?

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 20, 2020, 02:20:56 pm
Why would anyone take a shitty job with shit wages if they could make almost as much just doing nothing?

People working for minimum wage do that now though...   Lots of people could do just as well on welfare but donít. They go to work for crappy wages....   gaining work experience to better themselves, making barely enough to eat and pay rent, and, if theyíre lucky, saving some coin.   

So I donít think the argument put forward by Wilber and Graham that if you give people enough money to barely stay alive that they will just not bother working holds any weight whatsoever. 

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 02:22:43 pm
Why would anyone take a shitty job with shit wages if they could make almost as much just doing nothing?

We already have too many people who won't take jobs that involve hard work for good wages. Most of the dairy farmers around here have resorted to TFW's because they can't get locals to do the work even though they are paying $20hr to start.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 20, 2020, 02:23:27 pm
I'd need to look at data for these things with other countries who have tried it.

You havenít needed to look at any data so far to form an opinion that itís a terrible idea....  why start now?


Quote
Mincome in Manitoba   Edit
A similar field experiment of the Canadian Guaranteed Annual Income (GAI), known as Mincome, took place in Dauphin, Manitoba between 1974 and 1979. According to a research into the effects of Mincome on population health, conducted by a University of Manitoba researcher Evelyn Forget in 2011, the experiment has resulted in significant reduction in hospitalization, specifically in case of mental health diagnoses.[3] Among all the people, only two key groups were found to be discouraged from working by the Mincome project Ė new mothers and teenaged boys, who, instead of entering the workforce at an early age, decided to study until grade 12, increasing the proportion of students who graduate high school.[4]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 02:32:25 pm
fascism?

Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 20, 2020, 02:41:03 pm
Take a closer look at H.K. That's US style greedy capitalism trying to continue to exist within China's system of attempting to provide for all of the country's people.

The protests are even supported by the US and Britain!

H.K. is a capitalist paradise, I've been there and I've seen it and it rivaled New York. Now it just can't work within a system that demands the poor be cared for.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 20, 2020, 03:00:33 pm
Take a closer look at H.K. That's US style greedy capitalism trying to continue to exist within China's system of attempting to provide for all of the country's people.

The protests are even supported by the US and Britain!

H.K. is a capitalist paradise, I've been there and I've seen it and it rivaled New York. Now it just can't work within a system that demands the poor be cared for.

The Hong Kong protest are supported by Canada.  And thatís a good thing.  Fuck the commies and their atrocities against their own people.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china/report-china/

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 03:25:20 pm
Monty obviously hasn't been to Shanghai and Beijing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 20, 2020, 04:17:03 pm
Monty obviously hasn't been to Shanghai and Beijing.

Maybe never left Vancouver Island.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:26:03 pm
People working for minimum wage do that now though...   Lots of people could do just as well on welfare but donít. They go to work for crappy wages....   gaining work experience to better themselves, making barely enough to eat and pay rent, and, if theyíre lucky, saving some coin.   

So I donít think the argument put forward by Wilber and Graham that if you give people enough money to barely stay alive that they will just not bother working holds any weight whatsoever.

The difference is all of those programs are means tested to some degree; universal basic income or whatever you wnat to call it would not be.


Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:26:50 pm
We already have too many people who won't take jobs that involve hard work for good wages. Most of the dairy farmers around here have resorted to TFW's because they can't get locals to do the work even though they are paying $20hr to start.

Anecdotes aren't evidence!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:30:02 pm
Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth.

Capitalism under a militaristic, chauvinistic, nationalist authoritarian kleptocratic power structure bent on expanding its sphere of influence beyond its borders? It certainly fits the bill of a fascist state closer than most others today.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 20, 2020, 04:32:18 pm
Take a closer look at H.K. That's US style greedy capitalism trying to continue to exist within China's system of attempting to provide for all of the country's people.

Well, except the all the people they are putting in concentration camps or just disappearing for being the wrong ethnicity/religion or for criticizing the government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 20, 2020, 04:46:09 pm
The difference is all of those programs are means tested to some degree; universal basic income or whatever you wnat to call it would not be.

Yeah, I get it...  above a certain level, it can simply be taxed back as people reach certain incomes...  Eliminates a massive amount of government bureaucracy administering literally dozens of kinds of these programs.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 05:00:00 pm
Anecdotes aren't evidence!
Not anecdotes, these are people I know.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 20, 2020, 05:00:52 pm
Which would cause wage inflation, which would then cause price inflation, and then the government would have to raise the guaranteed income level to match, and then we're back at square one.
Not according to modern monetary theory where the government creates money when stimulus is required and raise taxes when inflationary pressures build.  The main objection appears to be that politicians will fail to raise taxes when required.  The solution is to not leave too much of the power to resist doing so in their hands.  Make it more a function of the central bank. I.E. redistribute power instead of wealth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 20, 2020, 05:03:29 pm
Not according to modern monetary theory where the government creates money when stimulus is required and raise taxes when inflationary pressures build.  The main objection appears to be that politicians will fail to raise taxes when required.  The solution is to not leave too much of the power to resist doing so in their hands.  Make it more a function of the central bank. I.E. redistribute power instead of wealth.
Trudeau had planned to add almost 100 billion to the debt by 2024 before Covid was a thing.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 20, 2020, 05:09:45 pm
You havenít needed to look at any data so far to form an opinion that itís a terrible idea....  why start now?

 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots

Here's another basic income experiment.

Quote
A Canadian charity recently conducted a bold social experiment: giving people experiencing homelessness a one-time cash infusion of $7,500.

According to the researchers, the results were "beautifully surprising."

Those who were given the cash largely spent the money on food, rent, and transportation and moved into stable housing faster over the course of the year, according to the findings. Spending on "temptation goods," such as drugs, cigarettes, and alcohol declined by 39%, on average. And recipients were able to keep an average of $1,000 in savings, according to Canadian news outlet CBC.

The cash payment saved the shelter system $8,100 per person over the course of the year, a total savings of $405,000.

https://www.businessinsider.com/canadian-basic-income-experiment-gives-homeless-people-cash-2020-10
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 20, 2020, 07:49:34 pm
Moodys again affirms Canadaís AAA rating https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/moody-s-affirms-canada-s-aaa-rating-citing-economic-strength-1.1525160
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 09:00:32 pm
Fascism? China?

No, capitalism within a communist system.

Communism is an economic system.  China no longer has a communist economic system, and it has vast income inequality.  China is fascist, look up the characteristics of fascism.

Quote
The principle is that communism has been able to provide the leadership in China that has elevated hundreds of millions of it's people up out of poverty. That fact isn't debated anymore.

Communism didn't do that at all, it only happened when they abandoned communism.  They have a totalitarian government, which is not exclusive to communism.

Quote
Capitalism of the US sort ends in not being capable of providing for all the people. That can't be tolerable in the 21st. century unless military force can steal the resources of others to provide the necessities to a system that refuses to share the wealth

As I said, China isn't communist, their wealth isn't at all spread evenly, and China has high income inequality about equally high as the USA.  Canada has better income equality than China:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 09:12:53 pm
Except there's little evidence higher wages lead to higher prices.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage-push-inflation.asp

"Economists track wages closely because of their wage push inflation effects. Wage push inflation has an inflationary spiral effect that occurs when wages are increased and businesses must ó to pay the higher wages ó charge more for their products and/or services. Additionally, any wage increase that occurs will increase the money supply of consumers. With a higher money supply, consumers have more spending power, so the demand for goods increases. An increase in demand for goods then increases the price of goods in the broader market. Companies charge more for their goods to pay higher wages, and the higher wages also increase the price of goods in the broader market."
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 20, 2020, 11:35:38 pm
Trudeau had planned to add almost 100 billion to the debt by 2024 before Covid was a thing.
Like I said lets try redistributing a little power and see what happens.  I've been thinking the idea of building back better should include reforming a good chunk of how we govern ourselves.  Of all the piss poor things underscored in the wake of COVID that have left us exposed and vulnerable I'd say governance tops the list.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 11:46:05 pm
Like I said lets try redistributing a little power and see what happens.  I've been thinking the idea of building back better should include reforming a good chunk of how we govern ourselves.  Of all the piss poor things underscored in the wake of COVID that have left us exposed and vulnerable I'd say governance tops the list.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnPsGcsUUAcSzse?format=jpg&name=900x900)


I agree, let's start by not having a government where 39% of the votes gets a government a majority to rule all Canadians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 20, 2020, 11:47:49 pm
Just like George Dubya...never let a good crisis go to waste!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 21, 2020, 11:28:24 am
If we're going to build back better then maybe it's time to have a long hard look at China's success under their communist system that includes capitalism to flourish. Even though Canada isn't in a great rush with a need for that quite yet.

World populations are exploding and US style wars of aggression are our future as other countries try to corner the economic markets for their own people. China is showing us a way forward by PEACEFUL means.

China's nuclear weapons are allowing them to do that unimpeded by the US so far and there's no reason to think that China won't become even stronger in their military defensive measures they're taking to stop US aggression.

There are many countries that have signed on with China for a more peaceful and prosperous world. They will build back better!

Know Thy Enemy! Are Canadians ready?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 21, 2020, 01:41:15 pm



I agree, let's start by not having a government where 39% of the votes gets a government a majority to rule all Canadians.

Agreed

Someone has to form a government but lets not give all the power to a party that gets 39% of the vote.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 21, 2020, 01:50:53 pm
If we're going to build back better then maybe it's time to have a long hard look at China's success under their communist system that includes capitalism to flourish.

China is showing us a way forward by PEACEFUL means.

There are many countries that have signed on with China for a more peaceful and prosperous world. They will build back better!

the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) agreement just signed: speaking of what the lameDuckTrump can't do about China's trade influence...

(https://i.imgur.com/vTRPtXV.png)

the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) spans 15 countries and 2.2 billion people, or nearly 30% of the world's population - their combined GDP totals roughly $26 trillion and they account for nearly 28% of global trade based on 2019 data...  China, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Cambodia, Myanmar (Burma), Laos
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 21, 2020, 01:55:04 pm
China, yabut...

(https://i.imgur.com/VtFbdgc.png)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 21, 2020, 02:22:16 pm
Waldo, the Cons, just the same as Trump, will sell their souls for the sake of making more money. It's just that in this case they're pretending they're not in order to appear to be politically correct. And of course we know that the Cons' souls belong to big business.

There will be a lot of resistance to promoting friendly relations with China but it's going to happen. The US has nothing to offer anymore now and Biden isn't going to be looking to improve trade relations with Canada. The D's are worse than their R's on that.

The world is ready to align with China and the US has made it so with their alienating many nations that only want peace and fair trade relations for their people. Trump couldn't have come at a better time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 21, 2020, 03:59:30 pm
Waldo, the Cons, just the same as Trump, will sell their souls for the sake of making more money. It's just that in this case they're pretending they're not in order to appear to be politically correct. And of course we know that the Cons' souls belong to big business.

There will be a lot of resistance to promoting friendly relations with China but it's going to happen. The US has nothing to offer anymore now and Biden isn't going to be looking to improve trade relations with Canada. The D's are worse than their R's on that.

The world is ready to align with China and the US has made it so with their alienating many nations that only want peace and fair trade relations for their people. Trump couldn't have come at a better time.

Trump couldn't have been kicked out of the WH at a better time. Perhaps having someone take his place who is competent enough to understand what a crisis a pandemic, such as Covid 19 is, and what a detriment to our economy (for one thing) actually is, then there may be some new light at the end of the tunnel.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 21, 2020, 05:24:12 pm
Agreed

Someone has to form a government but lets not give all the power to a party that gets 39% of the vote.

Well the Liberals said 2015 was going to be the last FPTP election.  But then they won a majority and thought "oh crap, if we change the system then our 39% support won't give us a majority anymore so scrap that idea!".
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 21, 2020, 05:30:48 pm
Waldo, the Cons, just the same as Trump, will sell their souls for the sake of making more money.

Yes just like the Cons, Liberals, Republicans, Democrats, and everyone else.

George Bush Sr. and Mulroney negotiated NAFTA and Clinton and Chretien signed it into law.  Same shit different sandwich.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 21, 2020, 05:55:02 pm
Well the Liberals said 2015 was going to be the last FPTP election.  But then they won a majority and thought "oh crap, if we change the system then our 39% support won't give us a majority anymore so scrap that idea!".

Yup. He didn't even give people a choice.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 12:49:03 am
Yup. He didn't even give people a choice.

here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 08:42:09 am
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!

Bullshit. If you look at US News list of ten best countries to live in, Canada is the only one without some form of PR.

If you look at any list of the best countries to live in, they are dominated by countries that have some form of PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 09:52:47 am
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesnít mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isnít about democracy, itís about power and the party in power isnít going to allow a system that will reduce that power.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 11:44:16 am
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring...
The cheesy little smiley Waldo placed at the end of his 'tirade' against the people they most rely on said it all. Talk about lazy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 12:00:46 pm
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!

PR was only devised by losers asking the people to make them winners. And why change when Canada leads the world in 'quality of life' for it's people.

Better to let the pendulum swing the way it does now between the Libs and the Cons. The voting public make the small corrections required in time to prevent severe damage.

And fwiw, there really isn't any Conservative agenda anymore. Only their very moderated policies have any chance of being adopted.

I can't even think of one of their proposals that could stir up any interest!

And none of the Con supporters seem to be able to propose anything? Even Gorgeous's signature is lost to them because of a moderated approach to his issue.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 22, 2020, 12:41:00 pm
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesnít mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isnít about democracy, itís about power and the party in power isnít going to allow a system that will reduce that power.

To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 12:59:47 pm
To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.

What a monstrous, ingenuous cop out, using other parties as an excuse to break a promise that helped give you a majority.

At least put it to the people. If you are just going to tell people what kind of electoral system they are going to have, why have them vote at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 22, 2020, 01:03:53 pm
At least put it to the people.

Why bother having representatives at all?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 01:13:11 pm
Why bother having representatives at all?

Why have voters at all? A big piece of JT's platform in 2015 was PR. He didn't mean a word of it.

We have had PR referendums on the subject from both Liberal and NDP governments. Don't tell me Trudeau couldn't have done the same.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 22, 2020, 02:44:25 pm
Why have voters at all? A big piece of JT's platform in 2015 was PR.

Right, and, it didn't work out. That happens in politics. If you're going to move forward on some kind of reform, I'd say you really need buy in from the stakeholders. It's also worth noting that it's hard to have a referendum on something that you're unable to come to any kind of agreement on. Look at the success rate for the provincial examples you cited.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 02:49:38 pm
Right, and, it didn't work out. That happens in politics. If you're going to move forward on some kind of reform, I'd say you really need buy in from the stakeholders. It's also worth noting that it's hard to have a referendum on something that you're unable to come to any kind of agreement on. Look at the success rate for the provincial examples you cited.

What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:02:49 pm
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.

Just as long as you keep failing to criticize the Liberals for anything specific wilbur, you're not serving any political purpose on this board for your Cons. Just more spamming and baying at the moon!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 03:04:24 pm
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

If the first BC referendum was done by the same rules as the last one, BC would have had PR for the last 15 years.
In Canada we seem to think the horse is more important than the wagon and contents that horse is pulling.  I'm guessing most of our democratic peers that succeeded in moving beyond FPTP did so by simply establishing the need to change and then left it up to experts instead of politicians to figure out how.

Clearly any question about switching should have a follow up question about whether we leave how up to politicians or experts.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:14:30 pm
In Canada we seem to think the horse is more important than the wagon and contents that horse is pulling.  I'm guessing most of our democratic peers that succeeded in moving beyond FPTP did so by simply establishing the need to change and then left it up to experts instead of politicians to figure out how.

Clearly any question about switching should have a follow up question about whether we leave how up to politicians or experts.

New Zealand switched to PR through a referendum. Clearly they have a higher opinion of their ability to rule themselves than Canadians.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:15:38 pm
Just as long as you keep failing to criticize the Liberals for anything specific wilbur, you're not serving any political purpose on this board for your Cons. Just more spamming and baying at the moon!

I'm criticizing Trudeau for not following through on a commitment he had made to those who voted for his party.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 03:19:51 pm
here's your choice - ranked ballots! Enjoy... carry on!

surely you're aware the general populace is just too lazy, too unfocused, too uncaring, too... to actually inform themselves to reach an educated opinion on FPTP versus 'someKindaPR' - surely, you're aware - yes?  ;D

but wait, I understand PR systems invariably lead to coalitions - and fringe parties holding up actual governing... say it ain't so, member wilber - say it ain't so!
It seems waldo and JT think Canadians are too lazy, unfocused and uncaring than say Australians, were voting is mandatory and STV means their vote has consequences regardless of how they voted. Maybe that is because of a system that hands absolute power to a party that gets less than 40% of the vote and they feel their vote doesnít mean all that much.

Face it, FPP isnít about democracy, itís about power and the party in power isnít going to allow a system that will reduce that power.

member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:22:33 pm
I'm criticizing Trudeau for not following through on a commitment he had made to those who voted for his party.

Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:23:25 pm
member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D
s

Of course you can find examples where PR has been fractious but you can find many more where it has been a success.  Canada is the only country on the world'e best ten list that is solely FPTP. In fact FPTP systems are a minority among developed countries.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:24:59 pm
Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.

When did PR become a "Con" agenda or PR become "facist"?  Give me a break.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:26:23 pm
Put it on your back burner wilbur and bring it up again when your Cons form government.

I can assure you that none of Trudeau's supporters are the least bit interested in sharing power with the Cons or any other backward thinking fascist regime's ideology.

Or in other words wilbur, STFU for a while unless you have some proposals for a Con agenda.

Good job! Do you think it's going to help? LOL
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:28:37 pm
Good job! Do you think it's going to help? LOL

Quoting yourself now.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 22, 2020, 03:33:25 pm
Quoting yourself now.

It's my mistake; it was meant to quote waldo. But I don't regret it when it causes some pleasure for you at least. Regardless, you need to get over your bad feelings and come to the conclusion that you're going to have to spend more time thinking before you allow your gums to start flapping.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 03:34:22 pm
New Zealand switched to PR through a referendum. Clearly they have a higher opinion of their ability to rule themselves than Canadians.
Their politicians apparently also had a higher regard for their constituents than our's have towards us.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:35:29 pm
It's my mistake; it was meant to quote waldo. But I don't regret it when it causes some pleasure for you at least. Regardless, you need to get over your bad feelings and come to the conclusion that you're going to have to spend more time thinking before you allow your gums to start flapping.

Meh. Keep the insults coming Monty, they say a lot more about you than they do me.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 03:38:42 pm
Their politicians apparently also had a higher regard for their constituents than our's have towards us.

Apparently. Real leaders can still survive nicely with PR. Witness Merkel in Germany and Ardern in NZ who managed a majority in its recent election.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 03:55:08 pm
member wilber, since you're holding up Australia as the model for Canadians to follow:
=> Australia uses Alternative Vote (AV) for its House... Single Transferable Vote (STV) for its Senate. Accordingly, still following parts of the Westminster model, the Australian Prime Minister is selected by the controlling House party chosen by AV. Alternative Voting, sometimes referred to as 'ranked balloting' was said to be the preferred Liberal Party of Canada choice over FPTP.
=> member wilber, given this bonehead play of yours, do a bit of research and come back and advise why Australia still uses AV for its House... and STV for its 'sober second thought' Senate - yes?

as for the second emphasis I put forward... that you completely ignored... there's a past thread here where I provided key examples where your favoured PR has limitations/problems; again, as in failing coalitions and fringe party control. Don't make me search for it!  ;D

Apparently. Real leaders can still survive nicely with PR. Witness Merkel in Germany and Ardern in NZ who managed a majority in their recent election.

c'mon member wilber - you ignoring your bigTimeFail concerning Australia won't make it go away!

and now you do it again with Germany & New Zealand... where both countries use a form of PR - Mixed Member Proportional (MMP). The forms of PR are many - you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail. Since you continue to reference countries without providing any detail, the waldo asks if you'll do some research and come back and advise on the Germany/New Zealand % splits of local versus regional party members elected... and whether the local members elected are no different than how we elect all members here in Canada (i.e., winner takes all). Facts/details matter member wilber!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 22, 2020, 04:06:09 pm
To be clear, the Liberals wanted STV, and could have pushed it through on their own. The Conservatives weren't in favour of a change, and the NDP wanted MMP. With no agreement and no movement, a change to STV, which I would have liked, would have been seen as totally disingenuous and self serving.

The Liberals preference, the ranked ballot system, was their preference because studies of past elections showed it favoured them the most.  The FPTP status quo also greatly favours the Liberals.  Making an election promise, then supporting a new system that most benefits you, then abandoning your promise when nobody else wants it in order to keep a system that most benefits you is what is "totally disingenuous and self serving.  The excuses from Trudeau et al that you're parroting are just smoke and mirrors.  That you also support the ranked ballot system that most benefited the Liberals is not surprising.  That Waldo goes all Waldo to smear PR is also not surprising.

The other parties, to be fair, wanted systems that most benefited themselves also.  So the lesson here is that Parliament is filled with selfish arseholes who care more about their own power than what is best for democracy and the country.  As far as I'm concerned, a bunch of TYRANTS only kept in check by our laws and constitution.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 22, 2020, 04:29:35 pm
That Waldo goes all Waldo to smear PR is also not surprising.

poor lil' Gorgeous! Quit making shyte up! Correcting member wilber's failures isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"! Providing facts/details isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"!

like I said, there are many forms of PR - and those variations matter. But instead of qualifying the variants, you low-information types choose to simply blather on with broad, sweeping proportional nothingness.

and the perpetual whine is so telling!  ;D If you can't accept the offered rationale for not proceeding with electoral reform - that no clear-cut alternative choice came forward after all the review & discussion held - then keep on whining!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 22, 2020, 04:37:09 pm
c'mon member wilber - you ignoring your bigTimeFail concerning Australia won't make it go away!

and now you do it again with Germany & New Zealand... where both countries use a form of PR - Mixed Member Proportional (MMP). The forms of PR are many - you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail. Since you continue to reference countries without providing any detail, the waldo asks if you'll do some research and come back and advise on the Germany/New Zealand % splits of local versus regional party members elected... and whether the local members elected are no different than how we elect all members here in Canada (i.e., winner takes all). Facts/details matter member wilber!


That's rich coming from someone who writes off all forms of PR by saying it will be dominated by fringe groups.

In 2004,  BC formed a Citizens Assembly to look at all forms of PR and come up with one form for a referendum. The assembly consisted of of 161 members, one woman and one man randomly selected from each of the 79 existing electoral districts, two first Nations members and a chair. The system was to be selected by the people, not partisan political parties. This is why Trudeau's excuses are bullshit. He wants control, period.

After a year the assembly finally decided on STV as the best system.

The bar set for passing was a 60% majority in a minimum of 60% or 48 of the 79 provinces electoral districts. STV received  57.7% of the vote and a majority in 77 of 79 districts. There was a clear vote for change but the government set the bar too high, otherwise BC would have had PR in 2005.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 22, 2020, 04:57:41 pm
poor lil' Gorgeous! Quit making shyte up! Correcting member wilber's failures isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"! Providing facts/details isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"!

like I said, there are many forms of PR - and those variations matter. But instead of qualifying the variants, you low-information types choose to simply blather on with broad, sweeping proportional nothingness.

and the perpetual whine is so telling!  ;D If you can't accept the offered rationale for not proceeding with electoral reform - that no clear-cut alternative choice came forward after all the review & discussion held - then keep on whining!

The smoke and mirrors routine isn't fooling anybody.  You only care about what benefits the Liberals.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 22, 2020, 07:21:18 pm
you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail.
Why do you muddy the kool aid, to make it taste better?  Its still kool aid.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 12:38:09 am
c'mon member wilber - you ignoring your bigTimeFail concerning Australia won't make it go away!

and now you do it again with Germany & New Zealand... where both countries use a form of PR - Mixed Member Proportional (MMP). The forms of PR are many - you so over simplify with your lack of specificity/detail. Since you continue to reference countries without providing any detail, the waldo asks if you'll do some research and come back and advise on the Germany/New Zealand % splits of local versus regional party members elected... and whether the local members elected are no different than how we elect all members here in Canada (i.e., winner takes all). Facts/details matter member wilber!
That's rich coming from someone who writes off all forms of PR by saying it will be dominated by fringe groups.

I did no such thing. Most certainly I noted there have been significant problems associated with PR; e.g., failed coalitions & fringe party control. Of course you were quite dismissive of said criticism.

bottom line: you PR proponents make broad, sweeping claims without regard to the many variants of PR that exist... like all you're looking for is that magical/mystical word (to you), 'proportional'!  ;D

In 2004,  BC formed a Citizens Assembly to look at all forms of PR and come up with one form for a referendum. The assembly consisted of of 161 members, one woman and one man randomly selected from each of the 79 existing electoral districts, two first Nations members and a chair. The system was to be selected by the people, not partisan political parties. This is why Trudeau's excuses are bullshit. He wants control, period.

After a year the assembly finally decided on STV as the best system.

The bar set for passing was a 60% majority in a minimum of 60% or 48 of the 79 provinces electoral districts. STV received  57.7% of the vote and a majority in 77 of 79 districts. There was a clear vote for change but the government set the bar too high, otherwise BC would have had PR in 2005.

ya ya, you made me look! Notwithstanding both referendums failed to realize your PR nirvana, there no shortage of criticism for the process followed. How ironic that you PR proponents had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

but wait, it gets even better! It's like you PR proponents were in search of something you pretty much already had in past elections; specifically as I read: "in the 2017 B.C. election, just over 86% of the B.C. legislature seats were representative of the votes cast. Furthermore, when applying that same 2017 standard of measure to the 1996, 2005, 2009, and 2013 B.C. elections, the average proportionality level exceeded 89%". Like I said, in search of a solution to a "problem" that doesn't exist in B.C.!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 12:49:53 am
poor lil' Gorgeous! Quit making shyte up! Correcting member wilber's failures isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"! Providing facts/details isn't, as you say, "going all waldo"!

like I said, there are many forms of PR - and those variations matter. But instead of qualifying the variants, you low-information types choose to simply blather on with broad, sweeping proportional nothingness.

and the perpetual whine is so telling!  ;D If you can't accept the offered rationale for not proceeding with electoral reform - that no clear-cut alternative choice came forward after all the review & discussion held - then keep on whining!


The smoke and mirrors routine isn't fooling anybody.  You only care about what benefits the Liberals.

no, there's nothing hidden, no smoke & mirrors in terms of the public undertakings that showed there was no clear definitive alternative. If you'd like to challenge that, please do; again, result findings are in the public domain. Of course, it means you'd actually have to go above and beyond your typical drive-by, gutter-sniping!

other than the punyGreens and the malcontentGoingNowhereNDP, what party is clamoring for a change to FPTP, hey! Certainly not your favoured CPC - amirite?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 11:35:05 am
I did no such thing. Most certainly I noted there have been significant problems associated with PR; e.g., failed coalitions & fringe party control. Of course you were quite dismissive of said criticism.

bottom line: you PR proponents make broad, sweeping claims without regard to the many variants of PR that exist... like all you're looking for is that magical/mystical word (to you), 'proportional'!  ;D



For every example of countries that have had issues with a proportional system, you can find several others where it has been a success. We have a system where parties form majority governments that not only got less than 40% of the vote, they got less votes than a party that finds itself in opposition.

Quote
ya ya, you made me look! Notwithstanding both referendums failed to realize your PR nirvana, there no shortage of criticism for the process followed. How ironic that you PR proponents had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

The choice was clear with the first referendum and if it had been run under the same rules as the last one it would have passed comfortably. The last referendum was a joke, I knew it wouldn't pass as soon as I read the ballot. It was so amateurish it was like it was designed to fail and I'm not sure it wasn't.


Quote
but wait, it gets even better! It's like you PR proponents were in search of something you pretty much already had in past elections; specifically as I read: "in the 2017 B.C. election, just over 86% of the B.C. legislature seats were representative of the votes cast. Furthermore, when applying that same 2017 standard of measure to the 1996, 2005, 2009, and 2013 B.C. elections, the average proportionality level exceeded 89%". Like I said, in search of a solution to a "problem" that doesn't exist in B.C.!



I don't know where you got those numbers but why wouldn't you be happy with 100%? But then for a guy who is happy with 39% majorities, that shouldn't be surprising.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 23, 2020, 11:48:49 am
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage-push-inflation.asp

"Economists track wages closely because of their wage push inflation effects. Wage push inflation has an inflationary spiral effect that occurs when wages are increased and businesses must ó to pay the higher wages ó charge more for their products and/or services. Additionally, any wage increase that occurs will increase the money supply of consumers. With a higher money supply, consumers have more spending power, so the demand for goods increases. An increase in demand for goods then increases the price of goods in the broader market. Companies charge more for their goods to pay higher wages, and the higher wages also increase the price of goods in the broader market."


Yeah that's the theory. Yet time and time again we've seen examples where wages increase and prices don't jump up.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 23, 2020, 01:16:42 pm
You can also find several instances of issues with FPTP systems as well.

The Greens, a ďfringe partyĒ, held the deciding vote in the BC legislature for 3 years with a FPTP system.  Pointing to a few bad cases doesnít negate the benefits of any system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 01:21:08 pm
For every example of countries that have had issues with a proportional system, you can find several others where it has been a success.

and yet, somehow, you've never addressed the types of known failures possible; again, the word 'proportional' is your only driver - notwithstanding your questionable (unqualified and lacking in detail) references to Germany... to New Zealand... to Australia. Again, the principal Australia electoral system remains as AV - not proportional; again, Germany & New Zealand have MMP electoral systems that are only partially proportional. You appear to have no qualms in simply dropping country names as having proportional electoral systems - country name dropping without adding qualification and detail explaining the full nature of their respective electoral systems! 

The choice was clear with the first referendum and if it had been run under the same rules as the last one it would have passed comfortably. The last referendum was a joke, I knew it wouldn't pass as soon as I read the ballot. It was so amateurish it was like it was designed to fail and I'm not sure it wasn't.

again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

I don't know where you got those numbers but why wouldn't you be happy with 100%? But then for a guy who is happy with 39% majorities, that shouldn't be surprising.

again, unsurprisingly, your presumptive "100%" fell flat with the country examples you offered up. If you don't care for those numbers I provided for proportionality of past B.C. elections, please provide your alternative (presumably preferred) numbers - yes?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 23, 2020, 01:24:28 pm
You can also find several instances of issues with FPTP systems as well.

The Greens, a ďfringe partyĒ, held the deciding vote in the BC legislature for 3 years with a FPTP system.  Pointing to a few bad cases doesnít negate the benefits of any system.

Yes it does but maybe now we can carry on a fruitful conversation without you, now that you've disqualified yourself from annoying me with your ridiculous spamming.

The only motivation for a PR system comes from a losing party that has resigned itself to having no other way to gain back power. And in both cases of federal and provincial elections, it's the extinction of conservatism that is causing the fuss. Get the fuk over it!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 23, 2020, 01:25:35 pm
Pointing to a few bad cases doesnít negate the benefits of any system.

neither does being transparent as to known problems... you know, that lack of transparency by you PRorBust proponents here!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 23, 2020, 01:26:26 pm
and yet, somehow, you've never addressed the types of known failures possible; again, the word 'proportional' is your only driver - notwithstanding your questionable (unqualified and lacking in detail) references to Germany... to New Zealand... to Australia. Again, the principal Australia electoral system remains as AV - not proportional; again, Germany & New Zealand have MMP electoral systems that are only partially proportional. You appear to have no qualms in simply dropping country names as having proportional electoral systems - country name dropping without adding qualification and detail explaining the full nature of their respective electoral systems! 

again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.

again, unsurprisingly, your presumptive "100%" fell flat with the country examples you offered up. If you don't care for those numbers I provided for proportionality of past B.C. elections, please provide your alternative (presumably preferred) numbers - yes?

Sometimes you stay the course and get it right waldo!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 01:32:47 pm
and yet, somehow, you've never addressed the types of known failures possible; again, the word 'proportional' is your only driver - notwithstanding your questionable (unqualified and lacking in detail) references to Germany... to New Zealand... to Australia. Again, the principal Australia electoral system remains as AV - not proportional; again, Germany & New Zealand have MMP electoral systems that are only partially proportional. You appear to have no qualms in simply dropping country names as having proportional electoral systems - country name dropping without adding qualification and detail explaining the full nature of their respective electoral systems! 



You can also add almost every country in Western Europe and Scandinavia other than the UK, which is hardly a poster child these days.
The only other exception is France which uses a run off system. Still more democratic than ours.

Quote
again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.
The last referendum bar was 50% plus one. The first would have passed comfortably under the same rules. Should I be surprised that 57.7 percent isn't enough from someone who thinks 39% percent should get a party a majority? Nope, it's waldo.

Quote
again, unsurprisingly, your presumptive "100%" fell flat with the country examples you offered up. If you don't care for those numbers I provided for proportionality of past B.C. elections, please provide your alternative (presumably preferred) numbers - yes?

No



Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 02:07:16 pm
What reform? There hasn't been peep out of him on any kind of reform. He is quite happy with the status quo.

A committee was formed, and the committee was left to die as there was no consensus between any of the parties.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 02:19:58 pm
A committee was formed, and the committee was left to die as there was no consensus between any of the parties.

There doesnít have to be consensus between parties, put it in the hands of a non partisan group and let the people decide. We already have an agency for that, itís called Elections Canada. Why would we trust politicians with vested interests to do it?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 23, 2020, 02:31:43 pm
A committee was formed, and the committee was left to die as there was no consensus between any of the parties.

Since when is consensus of all parties in parliament necessary to pass some sort of legislation?  It was a cop out by Trudeau and designed to fail.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 23, 2020, 02:52:06 pm
There's no doubt that Trudeau does what's best for his party and the Canadian people expect nothing less. The Cons will do the same if they ever make it back to be government.

What's the point of the spam twins belabouring the issue continually until it becomes just mindnumbing?

Let it go waldo, the spammers are rattling, clanking, and spewing smoke and steam as they stumble  their way down the tracks and will fall off the rails without you pushing them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 23, 2020, 04:13:57 pm
Yeah that's the theory. Yet time and time again we've seen examples where wages increase and prices don't jump up.

Most inflation goes into housing costs (which flows into rents), because supply is limited and prices are never set but float in competitive auctions and vary from town to town.  We've seen housing prices continually skyrocket.  As a society the non-rich aren't getting richer, they're just putting more money into their mortgage and burying themselves in more debt.

IMO if we want to help the poor and middle class we need a more regulated real estate industry including possibly price controls on housing, and then by extension rents (some of which currently happens).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 23, 2020, 04:57:20 pm
Most inflation goes into housing costs (which flows into rents), because supply is limited and prices are never set but float in competitive auctions and vary from town to town. We've seen housing prices continually skyrocket.  As a society the non-rich aren't getting richer, they're just putting more money into their mortgage and burying themselves in more debt.

IMO if we want to help the poor and middle class we need a more regulated real estate industry including possibly price controls on housing, and then by extension rents (some of which currently happens).

And housing price inflation seems to be completely decoupled from wages (which have pretty much flatlined since the mid 1970s.) I agree more needs to be done to make housing affordable and accessible which is why I think you need a full suite of reforms including some kind of UBI, but not a uBI alone.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 05:19:31 pm
There's no doubt that Trudeau does what's best for his party and the Canadian people expect nothing less.

So why did he promise 2105 would be the last election using FPTP? Don't you think he should come through for the people who voted for him instead of just going through the motions?

It's only mind numbing for you because you can't address it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 06:58:21 pm
Since when is consensus of all parties in parliament necessary to pass some sort of legislation?  It was a cop out by Trudeau and designed to fail.

When you are changing the voting system, it would be pretty crass to push through your preferred solution (STV = Liberal governments forever) over the objections of the other major stakeholders. There was not even a path to compromise.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 07:01:34 pm
When you are changing the voting system, it would be pretty crass to push through your preferred solution (STV = Liberal governments forever) over the objections of the other major stakeholders. There was not even a path to compromise.

Total cop out.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 07:03:34 pm
Total cop out.

So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 07:05:55 pm
I forgot my link. It sums up how I feel:

Yet most people do not buy those arguments. Polls and referendums consistently show that, notwithstanding its flaws, the FPTP system is considered valuable and that only a minority of voters want it changed. Various surveys also clearly show that Canadians want any proposals to be put to a popular vote.

-----

The Canadian electoral system is far from perfect, but it has been robust, has served the people well most of the time and has preserved its legitimacy. It has created a system that is competitive federally, provincially and intergovernmentally. There is no doubt that many feel as though their votes do not count. This can be addressed with some creativity without throwing overboard a system that has delivered accountability and a consistent alternance of power. Governments with majorities know that their support can be liquidated by a fickle Canadian public. The Canadian voting system is predictably unpredictable, and voters like it that way. Turns out the Liberals can live with it, too.

https://reviewcanada.ca/magazine/2017/05/why-trudeau-abandoned-electoral-reform/
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 23, 2020, 07:06:32 pm
And housing price inflation seems to be completely decoupled from wages (which have pretty much flatlined since the mid 1970s.) I agree more needs to be done to make housing affordable and accessible which is why I think you need a full suite of reforms including some kind of UBI, but not a uBI alone.

Yes wages have only really risen with inflation, but household income has increased because of the big increase in dual-income households over the decades.  Much of that money from the second income has gone into housing bidding, and now a single income family with the parent earning an average income can't afford a middle class lifestyle anymore.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 23, 2020, 07:14:10 pm
I forgot my link. It sums up how I feel:

https://reviewcanada.ca/magazine/2017/05/why-trudeau-abandoned-electoral-reform/

From that link:

It was incontestably part of the Liberal platform in 2015. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau solemnly pledged to change the electoral system so that the next election, presumably in 2019, would be decided by a new way to count votes. The Special Committee on Electoral Reform was created in the spring of 2016, and it delivered its report in December. It proposed two things. The first was that Canada replace its traditional system of voting (the ≠single-member plurality system known widely as the first-past-the-post model) with a proportional system of representation (where seats in the House of Commons would be allocated according to the proportion of votes each party received). Second, it recommended that the idea be put to a referendum.

Both notions were poisonous to the Liberals, and Trudeau abandoned the commitment. For one, he had consistently said that he did not want to go to the people. That position was surprising, since British Columbia had done it twice, as had Ontario and Prince Edward Island. (The United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Australian Capital Territory also put their electoral reforms to the people.) Prince Edward Island even held a second referendum in October 2016 while the issue was being debated in Ottawa.

Just as importantly, the Liberals certainly did not want a proportional system. It was never clear what Trudeau expected. There were indications that he was favourable to the idea of ranked ballotsóthe system whereby voters choose their favourites in descending order. It took little time for experts to predict, using past results and some imagination, that under such a system the Liberals would be guaranteed a place in government forever. It was a non-starter for the majority of non-Liberals on the committee.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 07:17:40 pm
From that link:

It was incontestably part of the Liberal platform in 2015. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau solemnly pledged to change the electoral system so that the next election, presumably in 2019, would be decided by a new way to count votes. The Special Committee on Electoral Reform was created in the spring of 2016, and it delivered its report in December. It proposed two things. The first was that Canada replace its traditional system of voting (the ≠single-member plurality system known widely as the first-past-the-post model) with a proportional system of representation (where seats in the House of Commons would be allocated according to the proportion of votes each party received). Second, it recommended that the idea be put to a referendum.

Both notions were poisonous to the Liberals, and Trudeau abandoned the commitment. For one, he had consistently said that he did not want to go to the people. That position was surprising, since British Columbia had done it twice, as had Ontario and Prince Edward Island. (The United Kingdom, New Zealand and the Australian Capital Territory also put their electoral reforms to the people.) Prince Edward Island even held a second referendum in October 2016 while the issue was being debated in Ottawa.

Just as importantly, the Liberals certainly did not want a proportional system. It was never clear what Trudeau expected. There were indications that he was favourable to the idea of ranked ballotsóthe system whereby voters choose their favourites in descending order. It took little time for experts to predict, using past results and some imagination, that under such a system the Liberals would be guaranteed a place in government forever. It was a non-starter for the majority of non-Liberals on the committee.


I'm in total agreement with that. I find referenda to be ironically undemocratic in a representative democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 07:35:49 pm
So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.

It is and it doesn't matter what you or I prefer. Trudeau made a commitment to his supporters and he reneged on it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 23, 2020, 07:39:07 pm
So you say.

I don't actually prefer FPTP, but it is a democratic system, despite your claims. I'm not as in a hurry to push through a change.

You rightly had an problem with the US system where 46% of the vote got 100% of the power in 2016, you also had a problem with the Senate and SCOTUS, but you think Canada has a democratic system when 39% of the vote gets 100% of the power, including not only the executive but the House of Commons?

Of course you're not in a hurry, and neither was Trudeau, because the party you both support is in power and is most of the time.  At least someone like Shady wears their partisan biases on their sleeve.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 23, 2020, 07:39:37 pm
I'm in total agreement with that. I find referenda to be ironically undemocratic in a representative democracy.

Wow. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:14:00 pm
It is and it doesn't matter what you or I prefer. Trudeau made a commitment to his supporters and he reneged on it.

Trudeau kept over 90% of his promises in whole or in part during his first term. I view this promise among the naÔve ones that shouldn't have been made.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:14:21 pm
Wow.

I'm certainly not alone in that opinion.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:16:36 pm
You rightly had an problem with the US system where 46% of the vote got 100% of the power in 2016, you also had a problem with the Senate and SCOTUS, but you think Canada has a democratic system when 39% of the vote gets 100% of the power, including not only the executive but the House of Commons?

I would argue that voting for a head of state is very different than voting for a head of government. I'd also argue against the notion that minority governments have limitless power.

Quote
Of course you're not in a hurry, and neither was Trudeau, because the party you both support is in power and is most of the time.  At least someone like Shady wears their partisan biases on their sleeve.

I'm not in a hurry because I see real problems with PR in Canada. Most of the countries that do well with PR tend to be homogenous and small. Canada is vast and disparate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 23, 2020, 08:21:37 pm
(https://i1.wp.com/mackaycartoons.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2016-10-21.jpg?resize=700%2C574&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:32:11 pm
(https://i1.wp.com/mackaycartoons.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2016-10-21.jpg?resize=700%2C574&ssl=1)

I give him a little more credit than that. I just think he was too stupid to realize it was a dumb promise at the time.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:35:40 pm
Trudeau kept over 90% of his promises in whole or in part during his first term. I view this promise among the naÔve ones that shouldn't have been made.

How generous of you. I really don't think you care as long as the Liberals stay in power.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:38:46 pm
I give him a little more credit than that. I just think he was too stupid to realize it was a dumb promise at the time.

It wasn't stupid at all, it was very smart and it was calculated. There is no reason at all that he couldn't pursue it. He made the opposition an offer they couldn't accept and used it as an excuse to quit. He had his majority and that's all that mattered.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:39:29 pm
How generous of you. I really don't think you care as long as the Liberals stay in power.

I actually hope for a proper Progressive Conservative party in the future.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:40:59 pm


I'm not in a hurry because I see real problems with PR in Canada. Most of the countries that do well with PR tend to be homogenous and small. Canada is vast and disparate.

So we finally get the truth, you never wanted STV at all.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:41:33 pm
I actually hope for a proper Progressive Conservative party in the future.
So do I but that has nothing to do with PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 08:44:34 pm
So we finally get the truth, you never wanted STV at all.

STV isn't PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 08:50:48 pm
STV isn't PR.

It's a form of PR because every vote counts. I don't think you believe in electoral reform any more than Trudeau.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 09:46:04 pm
It's a form of PR because every vote counts. I don't think you believe in electoral reform any more than Trudeau.

It's not a form of PR. It's a different way of tabulating votes. I would love STV. I'm back and forth on PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 23, 2020, 09:53:06 pm
I'm certainly not alone in that opinion.

Most people of that opinion are elitists who are simply scared of giving political power to actual citizens and would rather political power stay in the hands of their chosen elites because they think they'll vote for the policies they like.  Of course JT wouldn't want a referendum, it takes control out of his hands and the MP majority he has that he whips.  Guys like him and Harper are control freaks.

Ever since Brexit we've seen tons of articles, including academic ones, from globalist elitists spinning referendums as bad because for one of the few times in the last 40 years things didn't go their way and they freaked out, so ya let's now undermine their legitimacy.  ::)  What a bunch of tyrants.

From all your comments on the US system and the Canadian system, the JWR scandal, and now referendums, it's very clear that you care more about your chosen party/ideology having power than actual democracy.  You're a tyrant pretending to be something else, whether this is subconscious bias or straight up dishonestly or a bit of both.

If you look at history, the main point of representative democracy is to keep control among the elites while giving the populace a say once every few years to massage their need to think they have some kind of control.  Women, blacks/ethnic minorities, low income earners, people who didn't own property, have all been excluded from voting in the past, including in Canada.  In the last 500 years i've never seen a political system where the people had control, even in Communism which was supposed to be equality for the working class the elites kept a dictatorship and stole money from the people to live rich.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 23, 2020, 10:19:43 pm
Most people of that opinion are elitists who are simply scared of giving political power to actual citizens and would rather political power stay in the hands of their chosen elites because they think they'll vote for the policies they like.  Of course JT wouldn't want a referendum, it takes control out of his hands and the MP majority he has that he whips.  Guys like him and Harper are control freaks.

We all watched the citizens of the UK jump off a cliff. We almost watched the citizens of Quebec do the same thing. We elect representatives to make difficult decisions that we (well, you anyway) don't always understand.

Quote
Ever since Brexit we've seen tons of articles, including academic ones, from globalist elitists spinning referendums as bad because for one of the few times in the last 40 years things didn't go their way and they freaked out, so ya let's now undermine their legitimacy.  ::)  What a bunch of tyrants.

Also, it was a bad move that cost the UK in more ways than it could ever gain.

Quote
From all your comments on the US system and the Canadian system, the JWR scandal, and now referendums, it's very clear that you care more about your chosen party/ideology having power than actual democracy.  You're a tyrant pretending to be something else, whether this is subconscious bias or straight up dishonestly or a bit of both.

Please, tell me more about me. I voted for the Harper Conservatives in 2008 because I thought that the Liberals were a bad choice. I supported the coalition in 2008, because the Conservatives were lying about our system of government. I was glad it collapsed, because Dion was a weak leader. I thought the Liberals and the other opposition parties overreached with their holding the Conservatives in contempt of parliament. I voted NDP in 2011, despite supporting Harper, because Conservatives are mean spirited bigots. I went into the 2015 campaign thinking Justin Trudeau was an idiot, and planning to support the Mulcair NDP. I supported the Manitoba PCs in 2016, despite being an NDP supporter because I felt the NDP were out of ideas, and it was time for a change and was unable to support any party in 2019, because they all sucked (that was a whoops on my part given the COVID death count). I supported the Liberals for reelection in 2019, because they were (by far) the best choice.

That I tend to lean very centrist (making me often a Liberal) and I have had more direct exposure to government and it's internal workings than you. I'm not jaded or naÔve about government or humanity. Yes, I tend to sympathize with the party in power, because they have the difficult decisions to make. Yes, I cut them, no matter the party, a lot of slack because they're all only human.

Quote
If you look at history, the main point of representative democracy is to keep control among the elites while giving the populace a say once every few years to massage their need to think they have some kind of control.  Women, blacks/ethnic minorities, low income earners, people who didn't own property, have all been excluded from voting in the past, including in Canada.


Which is precisely why we have protections and rights that the public don't get a vote on. Tyranny of the majority is no better than what you accuse me of.

You and I may disagree on issues. That's fine. That said, you can take your reading of me, and shove it right up your ass.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 11:10:56 pm
Wow, the people aren't even allowed to choose the system they use to elect their governments. It doesn't get much more elitist than that.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 23, 2020, 11:36:47 pm
Who does government serve, the people or itself?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Omni on November 24, 2020, 12:08:31 am
Who does government serve, the people or itself?

They must obviously serve the concepts they suggest they stand for whilst seeking our vote, or they get thrown out next go around. I understand that is an over wishful thinking version of things, but at least it's democracy and we have the power to mark that X
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 12:29:42 am
Who does government serve, the people or itself?

People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes theyíre wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them theyíre wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 09:02:58 am
People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes theyíre wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them theyíre wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.

So if the riff raff are too stupid to even choose how their governments are formed  why even have elections? Why not just have an autocracy where they donít have to think at all. If that had always been the case, there would never have been such a thing as democracy in the first place? Why on earth do you think it would be a good idea to leave it up to two parties with a vested interest in the status quo to come up with any kind of electoral reform. They will always look after their own interests first.

You have been conning us JMT, you have no interest in electoral reform.

PS Switzerland has both PR and direct democracy through referendums. Oh the horror!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 11:04:49 am
PS Switzerland has both PR and direct democracy through referendums. Oh the horror!

California also has direct democracy. It's been a huge burden that has made California nearly ungovernable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 24, 2020, 11:25:51 am
Referenda are a terrible idea.  Constant propositions by special interest groups and corporate money.

This year Uber and Lyft got a proposition passed that exempts their drivers from labour laws.   wow...  democracy at work there?   These companies funded this campaign to the tune of $90 million. 

Thatís not democracy...  itís a gross perversion of it in the form of a corporatocracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 24, 2020, 11:32:44 am
California also has direct democracy. It's been a huge burden that has made California nearly ungovernable.

Quite true of California at times. They've made some dangerous moves that have needed to be reversed. But maybe it a good thing that they tried and learned because it seems they have eliminated most of the whacko extreme rightists. Direct democracy allows stupid people to do stupid things.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 24, 2020, 11:35:34 am
A referendum in Switzerland passed blocking the purchase of new fighter aircraft for their airforce.   

Careful what you wish for with these ďdirect democracyĒ votes.  Conservatives would set their hair on fire if the beatniks managed to get something like that passed here.  How many referenda would come out of Alberta and Saskatchewan promoting oil? 

Referenda are an idiotic idea. 
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 12:03:31 pm
A referendum in Switzerland passed blocking the purchase of new fighter aircraft for their airforce.   

Careful what you wish for with these ďdirect democracyĒ votes.  Conservatives would set their hair on fire if the beatniks managed to get something like that passed here.  How many referenda would come out of Alberta and Saskatchewan promoting oil? 

Referenda are an idiotic idea.

Imagine the referenda demanding increased spending and lower taxes. Imagine the referenda demanding acting on climate change and cheap, plentiful gasoline. it's not workable.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 24, 2020, 12:30:07 pm
Imagine the referenda demanding increased spending and lower taxes. Imagine the referenda demanding acting on climate change and cheap, plentiful gasoline. it's not workable.
Hmmm, sounds exactly like what we've wound up with anyway.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 12:49:57 pm
Hmmm, sounds exactly like what we've wound up with anyway.

That's because many politicians lack the courage to act, though that seems to be changing somewhat.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 01:07:33 pm
California also has direct democracy. It's been a huge burden that has made California nearly ungovernable.

Tell you what. Set up something like the Citizen's Assembly to review and decide on an alternate electoral system to what we have now, then make Parliament vote on it. You will get your wish to have Parliament make the decision and we will all find out who is actually serious about electoral reform.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 24, 2020, 01:14:17 pm
It's as dangerous as allowing Canadians in Alberta to have a referendum on capitol punishment for all of Canada, or allowing Americans to have a country wide referendum on the right to pack concealed heat.

Given opportunities the rabid, frothing at the mouth right, just like our two (or three)  resident spammers, will destroy the world.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 24, 2020, 02:23:42 pm
It's as dangerous as allowing Canadians in Alberta to have a referendum on capitol punishment for all of Canada, or allowing Americans to have a country wide referendum on the right to pack concealed heat.

Given opportunities the rabid, frothing at the mouth right, just like our two (or three)  resident spammers, will destroy the world.

Given your cluelessness, you gave 2 bad examples.  1, capital punishment is not constitutional in Canada.  2, carrying guns IS constitutional in the USA.

However, inadvertently, you bring up a good point.  How would we ever weed out the wheat from the chaff in terms of legitimate questions to ask. 

I agree with JMT, itís unworkable and would be bad for our democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: eyeball on November 24, 2020, 02:38:14 pm
That's because many politicians lack the courage to act, though that seems to be changing somewhat.
What's that perception based on, a promise made by a lying leader?  If I'm supposed to be gracious that at least we had a promise it seems fair that you should be a little less condescending about it being broken.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 24, 2020, 03:49:11 pm
again, notwithstanding both referendums failed to reach the necessary threshold percentage to realize a change to PR, for someone like you so steeped in the "mythology of proportional representation", the irony is off the charts in that you B.C. PR proponents would have had no objection to a fraction of B.C. voters choosing a new electoral system... one that was short on specifics and that few understood.
Should I be surprised that 57.7 percent isn't enough from someone who thinks 39% percent should get a party a majority?
Wow, the people aren't even allowed to choose the system they use to elect their governments. It doesn't get much more elitist than that.

again, notwithstanding you B.C. PRorBust proponents were seeking a solution to a "problem" that doesn't even exist in B.C., how ironic you would accept a fundamental change to the electoral system based on a measly 60% of those even bothering to participate in the respective referendums... that were, again, short on specifics and that few understood!

as has been stated here previously, government by referendum is (should be) a non-starter!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Black Dog on November 24, 2020, 04:00:51 pm
Quite true of California at times. They've made some dangerous moves that have needed to be reversed. But maybe it a good thing that they tried and learned because it seems they have eliminated most of the whacko extreme rightists. Direct democracy allows stupid people to do stupid things.

Prop 22 shows how easily direct democracy can be subverted by those with a shitload of money and absolutely no scruples about lying to people.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 07:42:00 pm
Tell you what. Set up something like the Citizen's Assembly

I believe we have one, called the House of Commons.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 08:04:55 pm
I believe we have one, called the House of Commons.

The House of Commons consists of partisan politicians acting in their own self interests and the aren't experts or interested in electoral reform. Get a knowledgeable  independent group to give them an option and make them decide. You don't even trust Parliament to make a decision.

Why do you want the issue of electoral reform to just disappear?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 08:10:44 pm
The House of Commons consists of partisan politicians acting in their own self interests and the aren't experts or interested in electoral reform. Get a knowledgeable  independent group to give them an option and make them decide. You don't even trust Parliament to make a decision.

Why do you want the issue of electoral reform to just disappear?

Because we have a functioning, stable democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 08:36:11 pm
Because we have a functioning, stable democracy.

Fine, you aren't interested in electoral reform so you are fine with Trudeau breaking his promise. Got it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 24, 2020, 09:59:14 pm
Fine, you aren't interested in electoral reform so you are fine with Trudeau breaking his promise. Got it.

Yeah, I already said that. I prefer STV, but I'm in no rush to get there.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 24, 2020, 10:35:36 pm
Yeah, I already said that. I prefer STV, but I'm in no rush to get there.

No you donít. You donít care if you ever get there.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 09:14:50 am
Itís ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: JMT on November 25, 2020, 09:32:01 am
Itís ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.


Anyone who is actually liberal (not Liberal) doesn't consider me a liberal.  I am extremely conservative when it comes to our form of government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 11:27:03 am
Itís ironic. Conservatives are supposed to be afraid of change but the most vocal opponents of electoral reform on this forum are also the most vocal Liberal supporters.

ya ya, Harper/weakAndy/O'Tool... such vocal Conservative proponents of electoral reform - NOT! Here's a lil' gem statement from the (now) leader of the CPC:

Quote from: current leader of the CPC, O'Tool
Electoral Reform Could Come At The Cost Of Our National Unity --- Will Canada's Parliament see more regional or secessionist parties under proportional representation? Will we see more single-issue parties based on social or cultural issues? Will a move to PR virtually guarantee that the Bloc Quťbťcois never fades away like single-issue parties of the past? Under a PR electoral system the answer is "likely yes" to all of these questions.

your false/fake outrage was highlighted with your country name-dropping and the bigTime fails you displayed by your lack of understanding of the electoral systems in Australia, Germany & New Zealand! And again, you kept touting the 2 B.C. referendums while ignoring the fact past election results have shown B.C. has had highly proportional governments elected... I gave you the numbers and challenged you to counter them - and after some time later, you still haven't, so the waldo accepts you can't. Most pointedly you ignore/downplay that PR type electoral systems have typically resulted in minority type governments; where known/recognized problems with PR electoral systems have been profiled (like, again, failed coalitions and fringe party dominance).

it was heelarious to read you pressing the waldo with your 100% nattering... while you were quite content to accept a low-bar of 60% of those voting in the B.C. referendum - which couldn't even be met in both referendums run over the years. Not 60% of the eligible voters... just 60% of those that even bothered with the referendum; where, again, the summary review consensus is that a significant number of those voting YES didn't even understand the change alternative being put forward - hence the oft written summary of the referendum(s) as, "one that was short on specifics and that few understood."

you kept nattering on about a national referendum being the 'endAll - beAll'... but apparently you've finally accepted government by referendum is a failing principle. So now, your latest shift has you wanting some "Citizen Assembly" type group to put forward an alternative for the HOC to vote on!  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 11:30:40 am
Consider someone like Trump as PM with a 39% majority and the power of political life and death over everyone in the caucus.

FPTP is about gaining and keeping power, not about democracy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 11:37:06 am

Anyone who is actually liberal (not Liberal) doesn't consider me a liberal.  I am extremely conservative when it comes to our form of government.

Considering you wouldn't even want parliament to vote on a proposal from an unbiased source, I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 11:56:19 am
Consider someone like Trump as PM with a 39% majority and the power of political life and death over everyone in the caucus.

does going to an extreme help your crusade?  ;D
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 11:57:44 am
does going to an extreme help your crusade?  ;D


Look at the US. Look at the UK today.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 12:07:24 pm

Look at the US. Look at the UK today.

And look at Canada where democracy is functioning better than in any other country in the world. Or look at the other nine of the top ten democracies in the world that are pretty close to Canada's positioning on the political spectrum.

I'm giving you a chance wilbur, don't blow it.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 12:12:08 pm
Considering you wouldn't even want parliament to vote on a proposal from an unbiased source, I couldn't agree more.

again, heelarious! Since you've repeatedly touted that B.C. Citizen Assembly as 'independent, unbiased', let the waldo further burst your bubble:

Quote
Criticisms regarding its design and operation: Random selection of members was meant to make the body representative of the public at large, but citizens were not obliged to participate, as they are in legal juries. Instead, they were free to decline, so it is likely that many of the members who accepted were more active and civic-minded than the population at large. Participating in the Assembly might also have been more appealing to reformists than to those who were satisfied with the status quo. The selection process insured equal representation by geography, gender, and age group, but not ethnicity, aboriginal status, or socio-economic status. If the selection criteria granted equal representation to men and women, why should it not also ensure that also the voices of disadvantaged groups or of citizens of specific ethnic origin be represented? Finally, it remains unclear whether members felt they were representing their personal views, their districts, what emerged from the hearings, or the province at large. Would the Assembly have made different decisions with different selection mechanisms and notions of representation?

In terms of equality of the deliberations, inevitably, some members spoke more than others, with interventions from men outnumbering those of women or minorities. Although the chair encouraged first-time speakers to engage, more formal inclusion rules could have levelled the playing field for all participants.

Other critics suspect that the process of deliberation was consciously or unconsciously steered by staff. Members composed neither the structure of the Assemblyís deliberations, its timing, nor its agenda. Staff decisions regarding these factors, as well as the educational materials and the selection of experts who spoke to Assembly members, may have biased their deliberations. Additionally, members had no choice over the priorities of reform, but were restricted by their mandate to focus solely on the electoral law, neglecting other important elements, such as electoral districts, or campaign finance.

The deliberation phase was particularly complicated because the Assembly mandate required that the different options that had been explored in previous phases had to be narrowed down and eventually coalesce into one proposal. The process of selecting the desirable characteristics of a model, for example, was hastened and issues such as women representation received less attention than some wished. The group ended up selecting the three characteristics that were at the top of the lecturerís list of desirable features of electoral models. Similarly, it was unclear whether the Assembly had the authority to modify the number of electoral districts and the number of parliamentary seats, which would have been required to adopt the MMP system. The Assembly chair clarified that the number of seats could not be altered, which might have prompted members to select the STV system because it required less change. It appears that more time was devoted to illustrating the STV system, while the technical details of applying the MMP model to British Columbia were left unexplored. The tension between exploring options and reaching consensus around a model emerged during the deliberation phase, and it remains unclear whether members would have favored the MMP system had they had more time to work through its complexities.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 12:42:27 pm
And look at Canada where democracy is functioning better than in any other country in the world. Or look at the other nine of the top ten democracies in the world that are pretty close to Canada's positioning on the political spectrum.

I'm giving you a chance wilbur, don't blow it.

Just look at them. Almost all of them have some sort of PR.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 12:50:05 pm
Apparently Canadians are smart enough to avoid making someone like Trump PM with a 39% majority, but too stupid to have anything other than a FPTP electoral system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 01:00:04 pm
Just look at them. Almost all of them have some sort of PR.

Canada is #1 and it doesn't, as well the majority of the world's countries don't.

I'm not opposed to PR. I'm just opposed to it as long as we have a well functioning democracy but would be for it if there was a threat from the right to destroy our system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 01:06:12 pm
Canada is #1 and it doesn't, as well the majority of the world's countries don't.

I'm not opposed to PR. I'm just opposed to it as long as we have a well functioning democracy but would be for it if there was a threat from the right to destroy our system.

#1 or #2 to Switzerland depending on the list Switzerland has PR and direct democracy through referendums. Works even in a country with four official languages.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 01:13:20 pm
#1 or #2 to Switzerland depending on the list Switzerland has PR and direct democracy through referendums. Works even in a country with four official languages.

I'll consider it if Trudeau is defeated.
But I'm like the admin here in that I'm not fully convinced it's a better way and that's mostly because I have had no need to consider it. It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.

Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 01:53:10 pm
I'll consider it if Trudeau is defeated.
But I'm like the admin here in that I'm not fully convinced it's a better way and that's mostly because I have had no need to consider it. It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.

Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.

That's the thing, like the average politician, none of you can think past the next election. In fact, a centre left coalition would be more likely than one on the right. In the present political climate, any form of PR would be more likely to prevent a Conservative government.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 25, 2020, 02:00:55 pm
That's the thing, like the average politician, none of you can think past the next election. In fact, a centre left coalition would be more likely than one on the right. In the present political climate, any form of PR would be more likely to prevent a Conservative government.

It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. There's no sense in belabouring the point any further with you.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 02:11:08 pm
It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. There's no sense in belabouring the point any further with you.

It won't happen at all if we are going to rely on politicians to come up with an alternate.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: the_squid on November 25, 2020, 04:01:44 pm
It won't happen at all if we are going to rely on politicians to come up with an alternate.

Not true...  depends which politician.

Trudeau was a hopeful candidate to bring about change, but he was all talk.  I almost voted for him because of that promise...   Sure glad I didnít.

Conservatives are hopeless on electoral reform.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 05:12:15 pm
c'mon... as previously posted, this is too good to have youse guys simply ignore it!  ;D

Quote from: current leader of the CPC, O'Tool
Electoral Reform Could Come At The Cost Of Our National Unity --- Will Canada's Parliament see more regional or secessionist parties under proportional representation? Will we see more single-issue parties based on social or cultural issues? Will a move to PR virtually guarantee that the Bloc Quťbťcois never fades away like single-issue parties of the past? Under a PR electoral system the answer is "likely yes" to all of these questions.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 05:20:02 pm
equally, just too good to allow it to be lost/ignored. Member wilber, about your oft mentioned 'independent unbiased' source... the B.C. Citizens Assembly  ;D

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Criticisms regarding its design and operation: Random selection of members was meant to make the body representative of the public at large, but citizens were not obliged to participate, as they are in legal juries. Instead, they were free to decline, so it is likely that many of the members who accepted were more active and civic-minded than the population at large. Participating in the Assembly might also have been more appealing to reformists than to those who were satisfied with the status quo. The selection process insured equal representation by geography, gender, and age group, but not ethnicity, aboriginal status, or socio-economic status. If the selection criteria granted equal representation to men and women, why should it not also ensure that also the voices of disadvantaged groups or of citizens of specific ethnic origin be represented? Finally, it remains unclear whether members felt they were representing their personal views, their districts, what emerged from the hearings, or the province at large. Would the Assembly have made different decisions with different selection mechanisms and notions of representation?

In terms of equality of the deliberations, inevitably, some members spoke more than others, with interventions from men outnumbering those of women or minorities. Although the chair encouraged first-time speakers to engage, more formal inclusion rules could have levelled the playing field for all participants.

Other critics suspect that the process of deliberation was consciously or unconsciously steered by staff. Members composed neither the structure of the Assemblyís deliberations, its timing, nor its agenda. Staff decisions regarding these factors, as well as the educational materials and the selection of experts who spoke to Assembly members, may have biased their deliberations. Additionally, members had no choice over the priorities of reform, but were restricted by their mandate to focus solely on the electoral law, neglecting other important elements, such as electoral districts, or campaign finance.

The deliberation phase was particularly complicated because the Assembly mandate required that the different options that had been explored in previous phases had to be narrowed down and eventually coalesce into one proposal. The process of selecting the desirable characteristics of a model, for example, was hastened and issues such as women representation received less attention than some wished. The group ended up selecting the three characteristics that were at the top of the lecturerís list of desirable features of electoral models. Similarly, it was unclear whether the Assembly had the authority to modify the number of electoral districts and the number of parliamentary seats, which would have been required to adopt the MMP system. The Assembly chair clarified that the number of seats could not be altered, which might have prompted members to select the STV system because it required less change. It appears that more time was devoted to illustrating the STV system, while the technical details of applying the MMP model to British Columbia were left unexplored. The tension between exploring options and reaching consensus around a model emerged during the deliberation phase, and it remains unclear whether members would have favored the MMP system had they had more time to work through its complexities.

and you were willing to accept a 60% 'in favour' voting outcome from the recommendation coming forward from this most questionable group/source... not 60% of the full electorate... just a measly 60% of those actually choosing to vote in the referendum(s)! And even then, your favoured side couldn't gitErDone!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 25, 2020, 05:44:34 pm
equally, just too good to allow it to be lost/ignored. Member wilber, about your oft mentioned 'independent unbiased' source... the B.C. Citizens Assembly  ;D

and you were willing to accept a 60% 'in favour' voting outcome from the recommendation coming forward from this most questionable group/source... not 60% of the full electorate... just a measly 60% of those actually choosing to vote in the referendum(s)! And even then, your favoured side couldn't gitErDone!


39% of those who voted is good enough for a majority government in your book. I think my standards are a lot higher.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 08:30:03 pm
We all watched the citizens of the UK jump off a cliff. We almost watched the citizens of Quebec do the same thing.

What cliff?  Is London burning?  Divorces are messy, and cost some money, and lawyers have to figure things out, but despite that people go through them because they think it's best for them in the longterm.  Quebec and Britain can do whatever they want, regardless of what you or I think or want, whatever they choose they themselves will have to deal with the consequences. That's the whole point.  It doesn't matter what you or I think, people have the right to self-determination, and you wish to deny them that.  This is tyranny.

You're against referendums, and yet you're against the electoral college and support a popular vote referendum to determine the POTUS instead of people voting for representatives (the electoral college) who then vote for the POTUS.   I agree with you.  The electoral college was purposefully designed to deny "the people" direct control over determining the POTUS in case they voted in a way the elites didn't want.  Same reason why women and blacks and non-landowners originally were denied the vote:  people with power want to keep control.

The only thing consistent in your views on democratic systems is that you support the systems that ensure the policies you support win out most of the time.

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We elect representatives to make difficult decisions that we (well, you anyway) don't always understand.

This is an elitist position.  Canadians aren't stupid.  MP's are just people too.  Trudeau has a teaching degree, Harper had an economics degree, neither Trump nor Biden are geniuses, nor AOC or Ted Cruz or most politicians.  Anything our PM or MP's can understand most Canadians can understand, just give them the info.  The vast majority of politicians don't go through and read every line of every bill, they get the Coles Notes, and in Canada's case most MP's are told and whipped to vote a certain way by leadership anyways or else denied or demoted from Cabinet positions, committee positions, travel, Question Period time, or removed from caucus etc.

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Also, it was a bad move that cost the UK in more ways than it could ever gain.

You or I can think whatever we want about it but it's not our call.  There's non-British politicians in Brussels completely unaccountable to British citizens determining policy that significantly affects Brits, and Brits have every right not to want that, or want that, it's their call.  Most of the politicians in Brussels don't like Brexit either but again it's not their call.  Everyone is in a moral panic because they can't control Brits as they wish, which is the whole point.

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Please, tell me more about me. I voted for the Harper Conservatives in 2008 because I thought that the Liberals were a bad choice. I supported...

Maybe things were different in the past i dunno.  About the last 4-5 years or about however long this forum has been up I don't remember you saying hardly a negative thing about the Trudeau Liberals or their policy, and virtually all of your opinions seem to magically align with theirs, and making every excuse for them along the way.  If you wave the banner that's fine, but what annoys me is that you keep this facade pretending to be something else.

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That I tend to lean very centrist (making me often a Liberal) and I have had more direct exposure to government and it's internal workings than you.

You have no knowledge of my work history to presume this.
 
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Which is precisely why we have protections and rights that the public don't get a vote on. Tyranny of the majority is no better than what you accuse me of.

Yes a Charter/Bill of Rights protects things like minority rights, and that's good, it protects us from politicians too.  If we have tyranny of a minority as we do now vs tyranny of a majority, I choose the majority.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 08:34:36 pm
People generally get into government because they feel that they have something to offer. Sometimes theyíre wrong.

The people themselves are often not properly educated on the nuance of something to make a good choice...hence our current terrible provincial governments and Brexit. Sometimes the best way to serve the people is by telling them theyíre wrong - hence the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Democracy by referenda is tyranny with a different name.

This is the same elitist, paternalistic thinking the federal Liberals have always for as long as i've been alive.  You've definitely found the right party.  I don't need someone else telling me what's good for me, nor do Canadians.  Voters are adults they don't need the gov to be their mommy and daddy.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 08:36:07 pm
Referenda are a terrible idea.  Constant propositions by special interest groups and corporate money.

This year Uber and Lyft got a proposition passed that exempts their drivers from labour laws.   wow...  democracy at work there?   These companies funded this campaign to the tune of $90 million. 

Thatís not democracy...  itís a gross perversion of it in the form of a corporatocracy.

You just described the current system.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 08:42:02 pm
Imagine the referenda demanding increased spending and lower taxes. Imagine the referenda demanding acting on climate change and cheap, plentiful gasoline. it's not workable.

A system of total referendums isn't practical.  I think their should be a lot more referendums on key policy decisions and direction though.  I think people should get to decide on the general direction of different issues, maybe elect something like the cabinet, and then have cabinet broker have to make things workable as a more cohesive whole.  The current system you have like 4 choices, and every issue comes inside a basket of your one party choice based on ideology.  There's no room for anyone or any government that is ie: to the left on environment but to the right on defense.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 08:43:19 pm
Prop 22 shows how easily direct democracy can be subverted by those with a shitload of money and absolutely no scruples about lying to people.

But the current system doesn't work like this?  Cut out the corrupt middle men.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 08:58:34 pm
Because we have a functioning, stable democracy.

LOL.  Our politicians are captured and corrupted by non-democratic influences including corporate and foreign interests, and the MP's that don't play the game stay on the backbench with hardly any power.   Lots of MP's run hoping they can change things and make a difference and then quit after realizing they can't without selling their souls.  Former MP's have written books and articles about it.

1 person 1 vote is non-existent in our system, different MP's have different power based on whether they're party leader, in cabinet/shadow cabinet, backbench etc.  It's a total top-down power hierarchy.

I've personally seen so much political corruption by banks and housing developers.  It's so sad, the little guy is running on a treadmill while feeding their pockets.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 09:03:25 pm
I'll consider it if Trudeau is defeated.
But I'm like the admin here in that I'm not fully convinced it's a better way and that's mostly because I have had no need to consider it. It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.

Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.

OMG thank you!!  Finally someone who is honest!!!
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 25, 2020, 09:15:01 pm
It's as dangerous as allowing Canadians in Alberta to have a referendum on capitol punishment for all of Canada, or allowing Americans to have a country wide referendum on the right to pack concealed heat.

If Albertans wanted a federal referenda on oil or capital punishment or abortion etc. it very likely wouldn't go their way, given that typically 60-70% of Canadians vote for leftwing parties in this country. 

In fact, if 51% of the votes got about 51% of the seats and 51% of the power, leftwing parties in Canada would always be in control of government.  Not sure what you're worried about.

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Given opportunities the rabid, frothing at the mouth right, just like our two (or three)  resident spammers, will destroy the world.

Again, thank you for being honest.  Yes, why give people you disagree with any say or power, even if your views would likely still win out?  When it comes down to it it's about maintaining power and control.  At least you'll admit to your tyranny.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 25, 2020, 11:24:57 pm
equally, just too good to allow it to be lost/ignored. Member wilber, about your oft mentioned 'independent unbiased' source... the B.C. Citizens Assembly  ;D

Quote
Criticisms regarding its design and operation: Random selection of members was meant to make the body representative of the public at large, but citizens were not obliged to participate, as they are in legal juries. Instead, they were free to decline, so it is likely that many of the members who accepted were more active and civic-minded than the population at large. Participating in the Assembly might also have been more appealing to reformists than to those who were satisfied with the status quo. The selection process insured equal representation by geography, gender, and age group, but not ethnicity, aboriginal status, or socio-economic status. If the selection criteria granted equal representation to men and women, why should it not also ensure that also the voices of disadvantaged groups or of citizens of specific ethnic origin be represented? Finally, it remains unclear whether members felt they were representing their personal views, their districts, what emerged from the hearings, or the province at large. Would the Assembly have made different decisions with different selection mechanisms and notions of representation?

In terms of equality of the deliberations, inevitably, some members spoke more than others, with interventions from men outnumbering those of women or minorities. Although the chair encouraged first-time speakers to engage, more formal inclusion rules could have leveled the playing field for all participants.

Other critics suspect that the process of deliberation was consciously or unconsciously steered by staff. Members composed neither the structure of the Assemblyís deliberations, its timing, nor its agenda. Staff decisions regarding these factors, as well as the educational materials and the selection of experts who spoke to Assembly members, may have biased their deliberations. Additionally, members had no choice over the priorities of reform, but were restricted by their mandate to focus solely on the electoral law, neglecting other important elements, such as electoral districts, or campaign finance.

The deliberation phase was particularly complicated because the Assembly mandate required that the different options that had been explored in previous phases had to be narrowed down and eventually coalesce into one proposal. The process of selecting the desirable characteristics of a model, for example, was hastened and issues such as women representation received less attention than some wished. The group ended up selecting the three characteristics that were at the top of the lecturerís list of desirable features of electoral models. Similarly, it was unclear whether the Assembly had the authority to modify the number of electoral districts and the number of parliamentary seats, which would have been required to adopt the MMP system. The Assembly chair clarified that the number of seats could not be altered, which might have prompted members to select the STV system because it required less change. It appears that more time was devoted to illustrating the STV system, while the technical details of applying the MMP model to British Columbia were left unexplored. The tension between exploring options and reaching consensus around a model emerged during the deliberation phase, and it remains unclear whether members would have favored the MMP system had they had more time to work through its complexities.

and you were willing to accept a 60% 'in favour' voting outcome from the recommendation coming forward from this most questionable group/source... not 60% of the full electorate... just a measly 60% of those actually choosing to vote in the referendum(s)! And even then, your favoured side couldn't gitErDone!

39% of those who voted is good enough for a majority government in your book. I think my standards are a lot higher.

so you keep saying! Let the waldo put some actual numbers forward to gain a true sense of your bluster... from the 3rd B.C. referendum undertaken in 2018. Perhaps you can advise why you haven't said diddlyWordOne about this 3rd referendum held, hey!

in any case, that 3rd referendum also failed biglySo - PR proponents getting only 38% of the total votes. Geezaz, and you're still flogging this after 3 referendum attempts to realize a change to PR being shot down?  ;D

let's get to your (falsely) touted "high" standards. The waldo's crack research team hasn't been able to provide me with the actual 2018 registered voter number, so I'll substitute 2017's number @3.25 million registered voters. The 2018 referendum realized ~1.378 million votes; accordingly, a 60% threshold would have been met if ~825K voters would have chosen PR... which is about 25% of the total number of registered voters. YesSirEeeBob, your claimed standards needed to change B.C's electoral system is "high"... 25% HIGH! Oh my member wilber, oh my!   (Note: if you can find the actual 2018 number of registered voters please contact my crack research team to update your claimed high standards - thanks in advance).
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 26, 2020, 11:11:38 am
OMG thank you!!  Finally someone who is honest!!!

Well Gorgeous, you like something I said but there were at least three different thoughts contained in my message, so nobody could understand which of them I said that pleased you.

Or was it all of them?
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 26, 2020, 12:16:11 pm
Well Gorgeous, you like something I said but there were at least three different thoughts contained in my message, so nobody could understand which of them I said that pleased you.

Or was it all of them?

When you said this:

Quote
It seems to me that it would just encourage gridlock working against progressive and liberal progress.  Is there anything in a Conservative, Green, NDP agenda that could make our government better? I know of nothing from any of them.

So your priority isn't democracy, it's "progressive and liberal progress".  Again, thank you for being honest.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Montgomery on November 26, 2020, 12:39:42 pm
When you said this:

So your priority isn't democracy, it's "progressive and liberal progress".  Again, thank you for being honest.

You may want to be careful on how you use words such as 'progressive' and 'liberal progress'.

If you meant Liberal capitalized then that opens another issue.

Otherwise you're just saying that I support 'democracy'.

PR and/or FPTP are neither pro-democratic or anti-democratic. You should know better and if you don't then you should learn at Dictionary.com.

I'm always open to a decent and rational discussion on the pros and cons of both.

And so to begin, my comment was that I suspect that PR would cause gridlock in government. If you applly yourself you might be able to come up with some specific example that supports your preference for PR. It's not going to be accepted as just a 'given'.

If I'm going to get into a debate with you I'll be basing my argument on the taxation question you're so fond of questioning.

Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 26, 2020, 08:04:56 pm
PR and/or FPTP are neither pro-democratic or anti-democratic. You should know better and if you don't then you should learn at Dictionary.com.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy

"Definition of democracy

1a : government by the people especially : rule of the majority"


Having 51% of voters electing MP's that hold 100% of the power is more democratic than 39% of the voters electing MP's that hold 100% of the power as we have in our current system.

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And so to begin, my comment was that I suspect that PR would cause gridlock in government. If you applly yourself you might be able to come up with some specific example that supports your preference for PR. It's not going to be accepted as just a 'given'.

If I'm going to get into a debate with you I'll be basing my argument on the taxation question you're so fond of questioning.

I'd rather a bit more gridlock if the majority have a say than unfettered power of the minority.  I tend to prefer minority governments in Canada because there's more consensus and other parties to put a check on the ruling party's power, despite causing more gridlock.  Right now the minority Liberals tend to team up with the NDP to get bills passed, which means the MP's of ~49% of voters are represented in these two law-making parties, instead of only 39.5% of voters represented in the previous Liberal majority government.
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: wilber on November 26, 2020, 08:12:19 pm
They're afeared of more democracy. Of more votes actually counting. Of people voting for a party that actually represents what they think rather than having to vote for the least worst because they think anything else will be wasting their vote
Title: Re: Government Day-to-Day
Post by: waldo on November 27, 2020, 12:06:11 am
They're afeared of more democracy. Of more votes actually counting. Of people voting for a party that actually represents what they think rather than having to vote for the least worst because they think anything else will be wasting their vote

ya, ya, you're such a proponent of, as you say, "more democracy"!  ;D

says the guy, you, who is quite content to accept a most unrepresentative 25% of the B.C. electorate being in a position to change the fundamental electoral system of the province of British Columbia. Says the guy, you, who repeatedly falsely touted the B.C. Systems Assembly group as a most democratic unbiased and independent source. Says the guy, you, who clearly has shown you have little actual understanding of the variants of PR while you feverishly push it under the guise of "more democracy" and the single word, 'proportional'!