Canadian Political Events

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: MH on November 08, 2019, 02:26:58 pm


Title: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on November 08, 2019, 02:26:58 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-catholic-board-gender-issues-code-conduct-1.5352903

"Toronto Catholic school board votes to include gender identity, expression in code of conduct"

At a marathon meeting that lasted until nearly 2 a.m. Friday, trustees voted eight-to-four in favour of a motion to add four terms to the board's code: gender identity, gender expression, family status and marital status.


Why anyone would think gender dysphoria is a sin is beyond me. 
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: the_squid on November 08, 2019, 03:57:24 pm
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-catholic-board-gender-issues-code-conduct-1.5352903

"Toronto Catholic school board votes to include gender identity, expression in code of conduct"

At a marathon meeting that lasted until nearly 2 a.m. Friday, trustees voted eight-to-four in favour of a motion to add four terms to the board's code: gender identity, gender expression, family status and marital status.


Why anyone would think gender dysphoria is a sin is beyond me.

Why anyone thinks there's a bearded man in the sky deciding these things is beyond me.

Why we would ever allow the people who think there's a bearded man in the sky to run schools is beyond me.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: ?Impact on November 08, 2019, 04:21:07 pm
Why anyone thinks there's a bearded man in the sky deciding these things is beyond me.

She doesn't have a beard.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Omni on November 08, 2019, 04:31:33 pm
She doesn't have a beard.

That's true. I saw her quite clearly one rainy evening just as I was wiping out on my Kawasaki.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on November 08, 2019, 04:50:07 pm
It's 2SLGBTQ+ you effing colonial homphobe!
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: ?Impact on November 08, 2019, 04:51:17 pm
just as I was wiping out on my Kawasaki.

There are no atheists in foxholes ... or wiping out on a Kawasaki.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Omni on November 08, 2019, 04:53:34 pm
There are no atheists in foxholes ... or wiping out on a Kawasaki.

Whatever gets you through when the shyte hits the fan.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on November 08, 2019, 06:55:37 pm
She doesn't have a beard.

She does, actually.  It scratched me one Communion.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on November 08, 2019, 07:25:45 pm
Part II - have you seen a fake news post about Rainbow Poppies - you MUST post this link in response:

https://edmonton.citynews.ca/2019/11/08/upset-about-the-rainbow-poppy-youve-been-duped-by-fake-news/
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: the_squid on November 08, 2019, 07:41:41 pm
Part II - have you seen a fake news post about Rainbow Poppies - you MUST post this link in response:

https://edmonton.citynews.ca/2019/11/08/upset-about-the-rainbow-poppy-youve-been-duped-by-fake-news/


That’s some good red meat for the rightwing reactionaries!   It has everything! 

The gay agenda!
Liberal teachers!
Support the troops!
Military!
Patriotism!


Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on November 08, 2019, 08:07:25 pm
Did I miss anything?

No.  Don't forget to take every opportunity to point out that The Rebel and The Post Millennial didn't bother to send a reporter to the school.

F*** these people... if they can't complain without lying then shame them until they either learn or shut up.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 10, 2019, 02:12:28 pm
No.  Don't forget to take every opportunity to point out that The Rebel and The Post Millennial didn't bother to send a reporter to the school.

F*** these people... if they can't complain without lying then shame them until they either learn or shut up.

The Post-Millennial reported a Tweet from a Canadian politician that had gone viral.  They contacted the school (by phone) for comment.  They posted an update when the teenager in question explained that they'd actually been suspended for posting anti-LGBT posters all over the school, not for refusing to wear a rainbow poppy pin.  And they posted another update when Cyara Bird apologized and conceded that she had the facts completely wrong.

People were certainly lied to by Cyara Bird and her niece.  There's an argument to be made that Post-Millennial shouldn't have reported on the tweet at all, but if this was a controversy that had already gone viral on Twitter, then I don't agree.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 10, 2019, 02:15:02 pm
It's 2SLGBTQ+ you effing colonial homphobe!

I don't feel any kinship with the Alphabet Soup Alliance.  Get the L Out!

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on November 10, 2019, 02:26:49 pm
  There's an argument to be made that Post-Millennial shouldn't have reported on the tweet at all...

Yes.  That is the argument.  You don't post stories on unverified tweets.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on November 10, 2019, 02:27:49 pm
I don't feel any kinship with the Alphabet Soup Alliance.  Get the L Out!

 -k

You are a verified L... stand up for your brothers, sisters and xisters...
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 11, 2019, 06:48:45 pm
You are a verified L... stand up for your brothers, sisters and xisters...

I used to feel like part of the team, but now I've discovered I'm actually a privileged white cis oppressor. I'm actually okay with it.  Being on the top is kind of exciting. I feel empowered.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 11, 2019, 07:14:44 pm
It's 2SLGBTQ+ you effing colonial homphobe!

Queer, Trans, Intersex, Black and People of Colour (QTIBPOC) is now where it's at.  Us cis white homos have to stand at the back with the straight people.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 11, 2019, 07:42:46 pm
It's 2SLGBTQ+ you effing colonial homphobe!

I feel LGBTQ2SIAPWTF+ is so disjointed as to have no common purpose or meaning.

Q-- "queer" is meaningless.

2S-- "two spirit" is basically just indigenous gay people.  "two spirit" was coined by a white guy named Harry Hay, who was a gay activist and counter-culture weirdo, not an anthropologist or historian.  The scholarship behind the claim that "two spirit" people were ever revered by any indigenous cultures is pretty sketchy.

I-- "intersex" is a physical anomaly, not a sexual orientation.

A-- "asexual" is a sexual orientation in the same way that "atheism" is a religion or "off" is a TV channel.

P-- "pansexual" is a sexual orientation in the same sense that "whatever!" is a TV channel.  A pansexual is a bisexual who thinks there are more than two sexes.

There's really just LGB, and T.  L, G, B are sexual orientations, and T is the notion that sexual orientation is fake and gender is real. I don't see much common ground there.  I see increasingly less common ground as lesbians are shamed, threatened, harrassed, doxxed, and even beaten up for not wanting "girl dick" in their lives.

Get the L out!

 -k


Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: SuperColinBlow on November 11, 2019, 07:46:32 pm
I feel LGBTQ2SIAPWTF+ is so disjointed as to have no common purpose or meaning.

Q-- "queer" is meaningless.

2S-- "two spirit" is basically just indigenous gay people.  "two spirit" was coined by a white guy named Harry Hay, who was a gay activist and counter-culture weirdo, not an anthropologist or historian.  The scholarship behind the claim that "two spirit" people were ever revered by any indigenous cultures is pretty sketchy.

I-- "intersex" is a physical anomaly, not a sexual orientation.

A-- "asexual" is a sexual orientation in the same way that "atheism" is a religion or "off" is a TV channel.

P-- "pansexual" is a sexual orientation in the same sense that "whatever!" is a TV channel.  A pansexual is a bisexual who thinks there are more than two sexes.

There's really just LGB, and T.  L, G, B are sexual orientations, and T is the notion that sexual orientation is fake and gender is real. I don't see much common ground there.  I see increasingly less common ground as lesbians are shamed, threatened, harrassed, doxxed, and even beaten up for not wanting "girl dick" in their lives.

Get the L out!

 -k

Being gay myself, I have to say, this whole abbreviation thing is getting out of control. Why not call it the Q or Q+ community for short? How about the "Q Continuum" for us Star Trek fans?
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: wilber on November 11, 2019, 07:57:32 pm
Got to admit, it makes my eyes roll. It's just too hard to take seriously, it looks like a computer generated password. It has eight characters, the only thing missing is one lower case letter.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Omni on November 11, 2019, 08:00:13 pm
Got to admit, it makes my eyes roll. It's just too hard to take seriously, it looks like a computer generated password. It has eight characters, the only thing missing is one lower case letter.

And perhaps a digit or two.....

I mean the numerical type.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: wilber on November 11, 2019, 08:07:55 pm
And perhaps a digit or two.....

I mean the numerical type.

Most passwords require a minimum of one number, one symbol, one upper, one lower case letter and a minimum of eight characters. The only thing missing is the one lower case letter.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Omni on November 11, 2019, 08:42:04 pm
Most passwords require a minimum of one number, one symbol, one upper, one lower case letter and a minimum of eight characters. The only thing missing is the one lower case letter.

I was rolling my eyes as well.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: cybercoma on November 12, 2019, 08:33:29 am
I feel LGBTQ2SIAPWTF+ is so disjointed as to have no common purpose or meaning.

Q-- "queer" is meaningless.

2S-- "two spirit" is basically just indigenous gay people.  "two spirit" was coined by a white guy named Harry Hay, who was a gay activist and counter-culture weirdo, not an anthropologist or historian.  The scholarship behind the claim that "two spirit" people were ever revered by any indigenous cultures is pretty sketchy.

I-- "intersex" is a physical anomaly, not a sexual orientation.

A-- "asexual" is a sexual orientation in the same way that "atheism" is a religion or "off" is a TV channel.

P-- "pansexual" is a sexual orientation in the same sense that "whatever!" is a TV channel.  A pansexual is a bisexual who thinks there are more than two sexes.

There's really just LGB, and T.  L, G, B are sexual orientations, and T is the notion that sexual orientation is fake and gender is real. I don't see much common ground there.  I see increasingly less common ground as lesbians are shamed, threatened, harrassed, doxxed, and even beaten up for not wanting "girl dick" in their lives.

Get the L out!

 -k
Your transphobia is pretty disgusting, but hey...you do you. Your posts to trans people are what Argus's posts are to immigrants. You're generally reasonable about all things, but as soon as someone doesn't fit your idea of gender conformity/normativity, you lose all rationality. In fact, the more I read your posts about trans people, the more it looks a lot like "separate but equal" nonsense that racists were spouting during the Jim Crow Era. It reads exactly like that kind of hedging. "I don't hate trans people. I have trans friends. I just don't see them as part of the LGB community." You seriously hate trans people and gender queers so much that you refuse to recognize their place in the community and consequently deny pansexuals their orientation as well. It's pretty **** up and so beneath you....or at least what i guess was my mistaken impression of you.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: SuperColinBlow on November 12, 2019, 08:57:28 am
Your transphobia is pretty disgusting, but hey...you do you. Your posts to trans people are what Argus's posts are to immigrants. You're generally reasonable about all things, but as soon as someone doesn't fit your idea of gender conformity/normativity, you lose all rationality. In fact, the more I read your posts about trans people, the more it looks a lot like "separate but equal" nonsense that racists were spouting during the Jim Crow Era. It reads exactly like that kind of hedging. "I don't hate trans people. I have trans friends. I just don't see them as part of the LGB community." You seriously hate trans people and gender queers so much that you refuse to recognize their place in the community and consequently deny pansexuals their orientation as well. It's pretty **** up and so beneath you....or at least what i guess was my mistaken impression of you.

now, now...no need for personal attacks.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on November 15, 2019, 03:20:44 am
Your transphobia is pretty disgusting, but hey...you do you. Your posts to trans people are what Argus's posts are to immigrants.

I used to care, but I just can't anymore. A few years ago when people were fighting against "bathroom bills" I was all on board. And now every day I read about some new idiocy that just makes me want to puke. Transwomen winning medals in weightlifting and track and field. Rapists and murderers declaring themselves female and getting transferred to women's prisons. Some anime-obsessed cat-girl weeaboo telling lesbians they're transphobic for not wanting to suck her "girl-dick".  Some transwoman joining an endometriosis support group to police people's pronouns and remind everybody that not all women have a uterus.  Eradicating any meaning from the word "woman" to redefine it as  some vague notion or feeling.  I just can't stand it anymore.  At this point, being called transphobic just means I'm in good company.


. You're generally reasonable about all things, but as soon as someone doesn't fit your idea of gender conformity/normativity, you lose all rationality.

I'm gender non-conforming myself.  My circle of friends and acquaintances is full of gender non-conforming people-- including butch lesbians, effeminate gay men, and people of both sexes who present themselves androgynously in  varying degress.  I'm very much in favor of gender non-conformity. What myself and the gender non-conforming people I know all have in common is that none of us are under the impression that our gender expression changes the fact that we're still women and men.

"non-binary" is a self-contradictory concept, because a gender binary doesn't exist in our society. I've never seen any non-binary person explain their gender identity without referencing harmful stereotypes.    The latest thing I've seen is "non-binary lesbians". That's an oxymoron. Imagine the mental gymnastics required to explain yourself as non-binary, but also a gay woman.

In fact, the more I read your posts about trans people, the more it looks a lot like "separate but equal" nonsense that racists were spouting during the Jim Crow Era.

Trans activists always try to draw this parallel, and it never works. Because race isn't sex.  Racial discrimination has been struck down over and over again, while sex-based protections for women and girls have been upheld over and over again.

  It reads exactly like that kind of hedging. "I don't hate trans people. I have trans friends. I just don't see them as part of the LGB community." You seriously hate trans people and gender queers so much that you refuse to recognize their place in the community and consequently deny pansexuals their orientation as well.

We're at the point now that the linked-Venus symbol that was the widely-recognized emblem for lesbians has been banned from some Pride events because it's considered "transphobic", and the "Dyke March" is being run by transwomen.  Gay organizations and gay media outlets are run by gay men and transwomen; gay women are an afterthought in all of this. Female people are non-existent in leadership in the  Look at the events that got Edmonton Pride cancelled last summer: black women with dicks fighting with white men with dicks.  Misogyny and chauvinism has been a problem for the gay community since day one, and it hasn't changed.

I'm not represented in that community, and I guess I never was.  It's going to burn itself to the ground before much longer, and I'll be glad when it does.


It's pretty **** up and so beneath you....or at least what i guess was my mistaken impression of you.

I figured. When you stop drinking the Kool-Aid the rest of the cult turns against you.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 02, 2019, 12:19:18 am
I get the impression that a lot of people are still confused about divisions forming within the LGBTQ2SIAWTF+ "community". Why is there conflict? Aren't we a big happy family?

Well, not so much. On the inside, conversations like this are happening. To set the stage, this is a PSA for members of a trans-inclusive Facebook group for lesbians.  Trans-inclusive lesbian groups have apparently started using the word "Sapphic" because some people feel that "lesbian" sounds too TERFish.   Anyway, they politely asked their members to be more trans-positive by finding alternative ways to say "I'm not into chicks with dicks", and instead got mansplained.  Or Ma'amsplained, as it were.  Here's how that went:

(https://i.imgur.com/PVZ3aV3.jpg)


Where are the vag1na-repulsed lesbians?  Where are the pen1s-repulsed gay men?  Where are the vegetable-repulsed vegans?

Gay women are told that there's something wrong with them if they're not interested in having sex with pen1s-people. We need to overcome our aversion to pen1s, perhaps through "therapy", so that we can be "converted", so to speak, into pen1s-positive people.

If this was coming from Jason Kenney types, people would easily recognize it for what it is: homophobia.

But because it's coming from a trans person, woke people think this is "progressive."

Woke people are too god-damned stupid to recognize homophobia if it's not coming from far-right knuckle-draggers.

It used to be that conservatives wanted lesbians to get over our aversion to pen1s, while progressives and the gay rights movement supported our right to live as we wish.  Now conservatives support lesbians living as we wish, while progressives and the GBTQ community want us to get over our aversion to pen1s. Progressives and our own supposed LGBT community have stabbed us in the back and thrown us under the bus. Woke people are garbage.





 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 02, 2019, 06:37:26 am
Is it coming from a trans person ?  Who is posting this ?

It seems like there's a discussion to be had.  So have it.  Someone has made a suggestion for how to look at such things, so give a response.

"Woke people are garbage" means you have given up on a resolution and are just going to fight, not helpful.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 02, 2019, 11:26:22 am
There's a difference between women and trans women that people need to acknowledge.  They're not the same, they have a different biology.  It's fine to be attracted to one and not the other or vice versa.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: wilber on December 02, 2019, 11:52:42 am
People now have to be "re-educated" to straighten out their dong preferences? Sounds a hell of a lot like conversion therapy to me.

I had to use dong because the auto censor doesn't allow the P word.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 03, 2019, 02:33:13 am
Is it coming from a trans person ?  Who is posting this ?

The response is from a trans woman, not that it matters, because allies and supporters and woke-people in general have been parroting that idea.

It seems like there's a discussion to be had.  So have it.  Someone has made a suggestion for how to look at such things, so give a response.

"Woke people are garbage" means you have given up on a resolution and are just going to fight, not helpful.

What really is there to discuss?

Progressives have decreed that "trans women are women" is not up for discussion. The GBTQ movement has decreed that transbians are lesbians and belong in lesbian spaces, and that that's not up for discussion either.

So what is the discussion to be had?  Whether gay women should be shamed and bullied for not wanting pen1s in their sex lives?  Whether there's something wrong with women who feel an aversion to pen1s?  Whether gay women need therapy to overcome their "genital preferences"?  I don't think any of this is up for discussion either, because it's 2019 and not 1950.  I think that anybody-- be it knuckle-dragging Bible-thumpers or woke idiots-- who'd advocate for those things is pretty clearly my enemy, and you bet I'm ready to fight them.

So what opportunity for discussion are you seeing in all this?  I don't see any ground for compromise.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 03, 2019, 06:57:27 am
Well we're discussing it right now.

There are many things that remain to be discussed.  You don't have to be part of the discussion, but then say that.

It's weird to me that you are so defeatist on this topic, but you still do bring it up.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: cybercoma on December 03, 2019, 08:30:30 am
Well we're discussing it right now.

There are many things that remain to be discussed.  You don't have to be part of the discussion, but then say that.

It's weird to me that you are so defeatist on this topic, but you still do bring it up.
It's weird to me that kimmy brings up extremist viewpoints and tries to paint an entire group of people with them. It's identical to Argus and others using ISIS as the definitional example of Islam, yet wouldn't dream to think of the White Nationalist Evangelical Christians as the definition of Christianity. Really, this just says more about the people committing the fallacy than it says about the people they're vilifying.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: wilber on December 03, 2019, 10:03:30 am
This old guy doesn't understand half of this alphabet crap but a few things come to mind.

A: I have two grand daughters who excel at a sport which could quite possibly be dominated by women with dicks. One of them is presently at university with an athletic scholarship. Hopefully her younger sister can follow. That concerns me.
B: Why is it only women are having to bear the consequences of all this nonsense?
C: Where do men get off telling them how they should feel about it?

Thank You.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 03, 2019, 10:19:59 am
Well we're discussing it right now.

There are many things that remain to be discussed.  You don't have to be part of the discussion, but then say that.

It's weird to me that you are so defeatist on this topic, but you still do bring it up.

I bring this stuff up partly out of a need to vent, and partly in hope that some people might read it and say "wait, I didn't realize this was going on" and think twice about blindly supporting trans activism.  I think there is a lot of stuff going on that regular well-intentioned people simply don't know about, but would find highly questionable if they did know about it. And the few people who do try to bring attention to it are silenced and dismissed.

And regarding "overcome your genital preferences!" I just don't see any common ground that can be achieved. They're two mutually exclusive positions.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 03, 2019, 10:40:21 am
It's weird to me that kimmy brings up extremist viewpoints and tries to paint an entire group of people with them. It's identical to Argus and others using ISIS as the definitional example of Islam, yet wouldn't dream to think of the White Nationalist Evangelical Christians as the definition of Christianity. Really, this just says more about the people committing the fallacy than it says about the people they're vilifying.

One of the things that's exasperating in all of this is that people are so willing to just wave it away as an extremist viewpoint.   This is affecting too many women to be dismissed as extremism now.  I don't know what portion of transwomen believe that lesbians who don't want girldick are transphobes, but they're affecting a *lot* of lesbians.  Lesbians can't go on dating apps or lesbian spaces without being badgered for not wanting girldick in their lives, and I have read dozens of stories of women being stalked, doxxed, harassed at work, and even threatened with harm for saying no. 

This "overcome your genital fetish" idea isn't just something being spread among a few trans incels on Reddit, it's being promoted by mainstream trans activists including Rachel V McKinnon. They always preface it by saying something along the lines of "of course every woman has the right to say no to sex, but..." and then set about explaining why gay women who don't want girldick are actually terrible people or damaged in some way.  Cisnormative conditioning, blah blah blah, transphobia, blah blah, "if you won't date lesbians who don't match your genital preferences, you're just reducing women to their genitals, it's actually very misogynistic", blah blah blah, get therapy, etc.  This isn't something you can just dismiss as a few random kooks on reddit, it has become mainstream trans activism.


 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: cybercoma on December 03, 2019, 11:43:16 am
You're elevating the views of radicals by addressing them as if they even have merit. You are part of the problem that they're creating.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Granny on December 03, 2019, 11:56:44 am
Posting this with no particular personal perspective, just as another discussion on the topic.
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/speaking-of-gender-a-national-post-debate-about-gender-identity-and-free-speech

I agree that trans people should not be reduced to their genitals, that are generally no one's business except themselves, their doctors and their sexual partners.
On the issue of sexual partners, I agree with kimmy: one is attracted to who they are attracted too. Trying to bully people into being attracted to you has never been an attractive strategy: Quite the opposite. So on the latter point, I agree with kimmy that one has a right to choose sexual partners they are attracted to.

It's never pleasant when you turn someone down and they whine and complain and badmouth you, but it happens. It makes them even less attractive, not moreso. Sex is not a 'right', it's a mutual choice.
You can walk away and ignore, but unfortunately,  you can't stop them from whining.

Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 03, 2019, 12:27:40 pm
 
C: Where do men get off telling them how they should feel about it?

Thank You.

I agree that maybe men shouldn't really be a big part of this discussion, yet here we are.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 03, 2019, 12:30:32 pm
I bring this stuff up partly out of a need to vent, and partly in hope that some people might read it and say "wait, I didn't realize this was going on" and think twice about blindly supporting trans activism.
 -k

Right, but if you don't want people to accept trans activism in its entirety then show some precision in your criticism.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: waldo on December 03, 2019, 12:38:03 pm
It's weird to me that kimmy brings up extremist viewpoints and tries to paint an entire group of people with them.
You're elevating the views of radicals by addressing them as if they even have merit. You are part of the problem that they're creating.

against: (elevating) the extremism; the enabling of, "scaremongering conspiracy theories leveled at the trans community"; peddlers of, "the current narrative that trans people as bullies and aggressors"...

(https://i.imgur.com/7Og10Qd.png)
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 03, 2019, 06:06:43 pm
I think we as a society are trying to figure out how to fit transgenderism into a word that's forever been dominated by 2 clear genders and nothing in between.

It will be messy as we figure this out.  ie: transgender women who are biologically male will compete against biological cis women, until we figure out that this isn't a very good idea and isn't going to work...so we'll figure something else out.

I'm hoping sanity eventually prevails and reasonable accommodations will be made.  In the meantime, people will **** off kimmy as they try weird stuff and push the envelope.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 03, 2019, 06:24:29 pm
1. I think we as a society are trying to figure out how to fit transgenderism into a word that's forever been dominated by 2 clear genders and nothing in between.

2. It will be messy as we figure this out.  ie: transgender women who are biologically male will compete against biological cis women, until we figure out that this isn't a very good idea and isn't going to work...so we'll figure something else out.

3. I'm hoping sanity eventually prevails and reasonable accommodations will be made.  In the meantime, people will **** off kimmy as they try weird stuff and push the envelope.

1. Yes and so tricky conversations have to happen.  Some things that won't help: vilifying the 'other' side, or holding up crazy extremists as the centre, refusing to dialogue.  I'm not talking about anyone in particular here

2. Messy.  But it's possible.  We don't have disabled people compete with abled people and the world continues.  We don't have men compete with women and the world continues.  This will be worked out.

3. As much as kimmy says she is sick of the dialogue, she is engaging in it and has convinced me of a few things through her seethes (ex. telling lesbians to love pen1s is offensive)
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 05, 2019, 04:20:57 am
You're elevating the views of radicals by addressing them as if they even have merit. You are part of the problem that they're creating.

Ignoring bad ideas doesn't make them go away.  If you want evidence of that, you need only look at the rise of the anti-vax movement, or the MAGA movement, or the rise of the alt-right in general, or the return of the Flat Earthers, to name a few.   This notion that sexual orientation is actually a "gender preference" that can be unlearned has become widespread among the gender theory people, and they're apparently too dense to see that they're spouting the same discredited nonsense that conversion therapy advocates claim.

And there's the question of how do we decide who we call a "radical".  Is Rachel V McKinnon a radical? She's among those who feel "cisgender" lesbians need to "get over their genital hangups", and she's treated as a legitimate trans advocate by mainstream media outlets like the CBC.   If the supposedly "for lesbians by lesbians" websites that endorsed the "Not in Our Name" letter publish think-pieces by transbians chiding "cisgender" lesbians to reexamine their genital preferences, is it still a radical viewpoint?   Riley J Dennis is a popular transbian Youtube personality who has been pushing this notion for a long time.  Arielle Scarcella is a popular lesbian Youtube personality who has received a ton of abuse for pushing back against the idea that sexual orientation is just a gender preference that can be overcome-- the sheer volume of criticism against her indicates that a lot of people are mad at her for pushing back against it.

Unlike ISIS and violent extremists in Islam, this notion does actually have some amount of traction on Main Street.  You're more likely to get hit by lightning or win the lottery than to be hurt by a Muslim extremist. But if you're a lesbian in a lesbian space (or cyber space, or dating app) you're very likely to get approached by sex by a "transbian" who probably feels it's your moral responsibility to "overcome your genital fetish".  I have heard these stories over and over again from gay women who were trans-friendly and trans-supportive until they had these kinds of experiences in the real world.


 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 05, 2019, 05:19:52 am
against: (elevating) the extremism; the enabling of, "scaremongering conspiracy theories leveled at the trans community"; peddlers of, "the current narrative that trans people as bullies and aggressors"...

(https://i.imgur.com/7Og10Qd.png)

I remember when that came out.   

One of the most striking things about it is how it brushes aside the voices of anybody who isn't onboard with their agenda. It's somewhat Baghdad Bob-esque in proclaiming solidarity in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary.  "There are no dissenting lesbians in our community! In fact a few crossed the border but they were swiftly beaten to death with their own strap-ons!" 

And no mention of the legitimate concerns of anybody who doesn't agree.  The women talking about their experiences must be liars! #BelieveWomen ... unless they're saying something that's inconvenient! Lesbians being pressured to accept girldick? Never happens! Transbians bullying cis-women in lesbians spaces? A myth!  "There are no aggressive transbians in our community! In fact a few crossed the border but they were swiftly beaten to death with their own waifu-pillows!"

It reads like a propaganda piece from a totalitarian regime, and like in a totalitarian regime one expects that dissenters will face Struggle Sessions to reeducate them and put them on the glorious path.


The context of the "Not in Our Name" letter is that it's just another shot in a long-running feud between Autostraddle and AfterEllen. Autostraddle and the others are all trying to sell their readers on the virtues of girldick, while AfterEllen is the only major lesbian website left that hasn't hopped on the baloney pony.  AfterEllen's response to the letter:

Quote
On the surface, the statement appears to be support for the transgender community. But then it goes on to state “we strongly condemn writers and editors”…. and that isn’t a positive statement of support, it’s rather an attempt to demonize anyone who has views they don’t deem acceptable, to call them “hate speech” and in particular our colleague Arielle Scarcella, who has been attacked for her response videos over the last couple of years.

If 10 YouTubers put out a video telling young lesbians that same-sex attraction is a “preference” and “bigoted” and can be “unlearned,” and a lesbian leader, such as Arielle Scarcella, puts out a response, telling young lesbians that innate same-sex attraction is not a “preference” and it can’t be “unlearned,” she’s faced with tremendous backlash and homophobia.

Given those underlying details, the statement is a very clear manipulation to throw women under the bus. This virtue-signaling by some extremists on the left is not something that AfterEllen wants to be a part of. Arielle has done a lot for the community and she has support from thousands of LGBT followers.

(...)

Since AfterEllen is the only mainstream lesbian publication still remaining, that focuses on issues as they specifically pertain to and affect lesbians, we have a moral obligation to give young lesbians (who are feeling scared or depressed and filling our inboxes) a voice. When lesbians are called “**** fetishists” with “genital preferences,” AfterEllen should be allowed to address those issues without backlash. Resorting to name-calling and bizarre accusations as a means of silencing the lesbian community needs to stop.

Being an ally should not require lesbians to deny their own reality. It should not require lesbians to relinquish all autonomy, to believe exactly as others do, or fall silent.

(...)

This goes much deeper than a simple statement. There’s been an ongoing campaign of homophobia directed exclusively at lesbians, and when our writers try to cover these issues, as they specifically pertain to and affect lesbians, we’re shouted down by non-lesbians with slurs and anti-lesbian sentiment. Enough is enough.

Promoting this kind of false narrative only creates more anxiety in the lesbian community, a community that’s already suffering. Lesbians are by far the most statistically unrepresented and underfunded letter within the acronym.

AfterEllen is with everyone, but first and foremost we have a moral obligation to provide a voice to the most silenced group within the acronym, and right now that is Lesbians.

https://www.afterellen.com/general-news/568835-afterellens-response-to-nbc-out

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 05, 2019, 05:40:48 am
1. Ignoring bad ideas doesn't make them go away.  If you want evidence of that, you need only look at the rise of the anti-vax movement, or the MAGA movement, or the rise of the alt-right in general, or the return of the Flat Earthers, to name a few.   

2. This notion that sexual orientation is actually a "gender preference" that can be unlearned has become widespread among the gender theory people, and they're apparently too dense to see that they're spouting the same discredited nonsense that conversion therapy advocates claim.

3. And there's the question of how do we decide who we call a "radical".  Is Rachel V McKinnon a radical? She's among those who feel "cisgender" lesbians need to "get over their genital hangups", and she's treated as a legitimate trans advocate by mainstream media outlets like the CBC.   If the supposedly "for lesbians by lesbians" websites that endorsed the "Not in Our Name" letter publish think-pieces by transbians chiding "cisgender" lesbians to reexamine their genital preferences, is it still a radical viewpoint?   Riley J Dennis is a popular transbian Youtube personality who has been pushing this notion for a long time.  Arielle Scarcella is a popular lesbian Youtube personality who has received a ton of abuse for pushing back against the idea that sexual orientation is just a gender preference that can be overcome-- the sheer volume of criticism against her indicates that a lot of people are mad at her for pushing back against it.

4. Unlike ISIS and violent extremists in Islam, this notion does actually have some amount of traction on Main Street.  You're more likely to get hit by lightning or win the lottery than to be hurt by a Muslim extremist. But if you're a lesbian in a lesbian space (or cyber space, or dating app) you're very likely to get approached by sex by a "transbian" who probably feels it's your moral responsibility to "overcome your genital fetish".  I have heard these stories over and over again from gay women who were trans-friendly and trans-supportive until they had these kinds of experiences in the real world.


My post is going to be about advancing your ideas of framing.

1. Flat earth arguably gained traction when people started talking about it as the joke that it is, though.  But I am thinking about knowledge differently now and the 'catchiness' of a meme is something we can't stop I suppose.

2. So there was a bad idea that some people know about.. and now *I* know about it because the people who want to turn that idea down argued about it in channels like this, or it made it to the Sun (for angertainment reasons) for white cis male consumption.  Ok.

3. Good question.  Why don't you try answering it ?  Is it fringe ideas that make radicals, or radicals making fringe ideas ?  Where do these people belong in the topology of public dialogue ?

4. Quantification is still a great go-to for objective knowledge.  The last time we discussed hard numbers on this you produced a study (good) with a bad methodology (bad).  I am truly interested in any data on this topic.

And as much as you are impacted by this personally, I urge you to think about separating your personal feelings when you post about it.  If you care about publicizing it, then objectivity will help you achieve this.  You have convinced me there's something there but it's hard for me to read your posts when they're marbled with vitriol.  Your feelings are valid, but you can actually make a difference to a minor degree if you dampen them in your arguments. 

And yes, it doesn't matter, but what we post here doesn't really matter beyond being a reflection of ourselves.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: cybercoma on December 05, 2019, 01:52:32 pm
kimmy, I still hold that you’re elevating the views of an extremist minority who are probably being amplified by alt-right propaganda to undermine trans rights more generally. The more I read about Yaniv and “her” idiocy, the more I’m convinced “she” isn’t really trans at all—the latest scenario being “her” demanding to see an OBGYN.

Stop elevating extremists and undermining the valid and legitimate effort of trans people and their fight for human rights and dignity. You’re spending far more time highlighting garbage people with garbage view instead of the real concerns of the trans community more broadly. Consequently, you are part of the problem. You undermine the real fight by focusing on idiots whose sole purpose is to make trans people look bad. Frankly, I’m pretty sure this propaganda is being amplified by the alt-right and Russian troll farms looking to drive wedge in society to make people more distrustful of one another. This division corrupts and disables democratic institutions.

Stop contributing to the problem. Start fighting for the people who actually need to be supported and stop making celebrities out of assholes.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 06, 2019, 02:37:58 am
kimmy, I still hold that you’re elevating the views of an extremist minority who are probably being amplified by alt-right propaganda to undermine trans rights more generally.

This isn't just coming from the Yanivs of the world, or basement dwelling anime-obsessed Cat-girl trans-incels on Reddit.  This is coming from sites like Autostraddle and the other signatories to the "Not in Our Name" letter, which are what passes for mainstream media in the LGBTQ "community". And from allegedly mainstream trans advocates like Rachel V McKinnon, who has a new article in the New York Times again today.  If these are "radical" ideas then why are supposedly mainstream LGBTQ websites and activists promoting them?

The more I read about Yaniv and “her” idiocy, the more I’m convinced “she” isn’t really trans at all—the latest scenario being “her” demanding to see an OBGYN.

Yaniv is trans because "she" says she's trans.  That's the law of the land.  It's also what trans advocates have been demanding-- the right to self-identify without any gatekeeping. "I am because I say I am." 

Yaniv may be mentally ill. Yaniv may be cynically using Canada's new gender ID laws as a means to file bogus human rights complaints for financial gain. Yaniv may be a sexual predator using self-ID to gain access to womens spaces and to gain the trust of adolescent girls (another incident last week involving Yaniv's online sexual contact with an underage girl, the latest of many).  Personally, I think Yaniv is probably all three-- a sex predator, a predatory litigant, and someone with mental health issues.  None of those things actually change the fact that under Canadian law, Yaniv is trans.  The trans community doesn't get to disown Yaniv because "she" is causing them bad press. Yaniv's right to gender expression is guaranteed under law and isn't open for debate. 

You have heard a lot about Yaniv, primarily because she has made a gigantic spectacle of herself, but also because she's the case that changes the argument from "that would never happen" to "well, you have to break a few eggs."  Yaniv is just an example that illustrates the issue. There will be more Yanivs, because this self-ID is tailor made to be exploited by predators and malicious individuals.


And then there's the question of what "really trans" actually means.  It used to be that being "really trans" meant having gender dysphoria.  Now that's considered gatekeeping.  Those who hold to that belief are called "truscum" and vilified within the trans community by other trans people who consider it "invalidating".  Being trans is no longer necessarily a result of a psychological condition of any sort. Some point to "gender euphoria", a state of delight obtained by expressing their gender identity.  (in olden times this might have been described as a "crossdressing fetish"...)   It's entirely possible than Yaniv feels the same "gender euphoria" that other trans people speak of.  So... what right do we have to question whether Yaniv is "really trans"?  The only criterion the law sets out for determining if someone is "really trans" is that they say they are.


Stop elevating extremists and undermining the valid and legitimate effort of trans people and their fight for human rights and dignity. You’re spending far more time highlighting garbage people with garbage view instead of the real concerns of the trans community more broadly. Consequently, you are part of the problem. You undermine the real fight by focusing on idiots whose sole purpose is to make trans people look bad. Frankly, I’m pretty sure this propaganda is being amplified by the alt-right and Russian troll farms looking to drive wedge in society to make people more distrustful of one another. This division corrupts and disables democratic institutions.

Stop contributing to the problem. Start fighting for the people who actually need to be supported and stop making celebrities out of assholes.

I am fighting for the people who actually need support. The woke left is so focused on supporting trans people that they've forgotten that the lesbians on the receiving end of all of this conditioning and grooming and bullying are people with their own needs and their own struggle.  They need support too, especially young ones who are struggling with their sexual identity.

This is one of those Arielle Scarcella videos that Autostraddle and friends deemed transphobic. (https://youtu.be/9D_lK8cwmgg?t=245)  After making light of the push to promote "girldick" and shame lesbians for not wanting it, she gets to her main point which is that this stuff impacts real people, like the teenage girl who wrote this letter:

(https://i.imgur.com/wxxNtFA.png)

That girl isn't a prop or an extra in somebody else's journey. She's a person with her own needs who has been harmed. Somebody needs to stand up for her, and it's clearly not going to be Autostraddle or the woke left.  Trans people have Autostraddle and an army of well-funded activists and lobbyists and politicians going to bat for them.  The girl that wrote that letter has nobody standing up for her.  Arielle Scarcella decided to be the person who stands up for her and for girls like her, even though it has gotten her labeled a "TERF" and a transphobe. If it's transphobic to tell the rest of the world that this rhetoric is hurting real people, then I am going to be transphobic too.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 06, 2019, 03:11:02 am
3.  I think the definition of radical changes over time.  At one point women  voting or working outside the home was a radical idea. The idea that the earth is flat is a radical idea to most of us, but it's a foundational idea for flat earthers.  The idea that a celestial being impregnated a virgin who gave birth to a savior who got nailed to a crucifix and rose from the dead 3 days later is a radical idea, but it's a foundational idea for Christians.  Where does the idea that lesbians need to be accepting of "girldick" stand at present?  Tough to say, but seems to have a lot of traction right now.


Why do you think it has a lot of traction ? 

You are not engaging on that topic because it's worth considering, or it's being debated in the general population IMO but because it enrages you. 

That's fine too but look objectively at how that idea has travelled through the mechanics and flow of the "marketplace of ideas".  It's a new thing, or at least a re-discovering of an old and forgotten way that the system works:

1. Outrageous idea is developed by fringe dwellers
2. Intelligent people become away of said idea and are outraged
3. Intelligent people bring the idea into general discussion
4. Now the general population is aware of it

This all seems like a new flow that happens because of angertainment.

Quote
4.  My point in giving you that survey to read was less to give you quantification, and more to illustrate the kind of experiences lesbians are having with trans women.  It's flawed because it's an opt-in voluntary survey, but the same criticism can be made of the surveys that allegedly show an "epidemic of violence" against trans people.  Those are also voluntary opt-in surveys, but woke people take them as gospel truth.  I don't dismiss those surveys entirely, though, because they do illustrate that trans people do face a lot of abusive and frightening situations.  I think you should view the lesbians survey in the same light.


Experience is valid, but doesn't scale to the level of 'general problem'.  I believe the surveys I have read had good methodology but I will look again.

You don't have to quote a survey to get me to care about your personal and specific experience.  That is important and has a role to play.

Quote

5.  Some of this stuff makes me furious, and it's hard for me to present it even-keel sometimes


I hear you and I care.

The way I think of such things is that you have to balance between:

"You can't legislate everything"
and
"We must ensure actions so that we can try to make sure [XYZ] never happens"
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 06, 2019, 06:35:15 am
In order:

1.  I think that's highly debatable. I think that what has really gained Flat Earth a lot of traction in recent years is the power of social media.  It gives stupid people a way to share stupid ideas with other stupid people without having to go through any sort of gatekeeper.  I think anti-vax and MAGA and the alt-right have done the same.

2. Does it concern you that you only hear about the down-side of this stuff when the Sun publishes an "angertainment" article or when the kimmo goes on a rant?  Last week the Sun published an "angertainment" article about male violent offenders declaring themselves transgender and transferring to womens prisons. While recognizing the Sun's shortcomings as a journalism outlet...  shouldn't some more reputable publication look into that story?

3.  I think the definition of radical changes over time.  At one point women voting or working outside the home was a radical idea. The idea that the earth is flat is a radical idea to most of us, but it's a foundational idea for flat earthers.  The idea that a celestial being impregnated a virgin who gave birth to a savior who got nailed to a crucifix and rose from the dead 3 days later is a radical idea, but it's a foundational idea for Christians.  Where does the idea that lesbians need to be accepting of "girldick" stand at present?  Tough to say, but seems to have a lot of traction right now.

4.  My point in giving you that survey to read was less to give you quantification, and more to illustrate the kind of experiences lesbians are having with trans women.  It's flawed because it's an opt-in voluntary survey, but the same criticism can be made of the surveys that allegedly show an "epidemic of violence" against trans people.  Those are also voluntary opt-in surveys, but woke people take them as gospel truth.  I don't dismiss those surveys entirely, though, because they do illustrate that trans people do face a lot of abusive and frightening situations.  I think you should view the lesbians survey in the same light.

5.  Some of this stuff makes me furious, and it's hard for me to present it even-keel sometimes.

 -k

1. Agreed.  I just posted a podcast that talks about how knowledge is different today: https://canadianpoliticalevents.createaforum.com/general-discussion/podcast-culture/45/ Very relevant to all this.
2. A few thoughts: your rants are personal accounts and opinions, so I value them more than the Sun's angertainment bits.  The prison issue is much more serious than Yaniv's adventures in the waxing industry.  Yes, serious media should be covering that.  TBH if peoples' sensibilities can't get around the idea that violent people can't be housed with non-violent people then maybe that's how to frame it: violent people are actually currently housed with non-violent people.

3. 4. 5. later
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: cybercoma on December 06, 2019, 07:50:15 am
"The woke left" is the new calling card of the idiots who used to use "libtard."

Sorry, kimmy, but your posts are now wearing truck nuts. You've been lost to the propaganda machine and can't see the light.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Granny on December 06, 2019, 10:05:16 am
this stuff impacts real people, like the teenage girl who wrote this letter:

(https://i.imgur.com/wxxNtFA.png)

That girl isn't a prop or an extra in somebody else's journey. She's a person with her own needs who has been harmed. Somebody needs to stand up for her, and it's clearly not going to be Autostraddle or the woke left.  Trans people have Autostraddle and an army of well-funded activists and lobbyists and politicians going to bat for them.  The girl that wrote that letter has nobody standing up for her. 

I guess I don't understand your perception of the problem here: The girl has free choice to not have that particular gf if it isn't working out, chalk it up to a learning experience and choose differently in the future. Lousy sex partners who ignore a partner's needs are a dime a dozen, and deserve to be kicked to the curb.

I just don't see any undue element of coercion, any difference from anyone who determines that they've chosen the wrong partner.
"Standing up for her" ... how?
By telling her to break up with her partner?
That's her business.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 06, 2019, 06:16:44 pm
Sorry, kimmy, but your posts are now wearing truck nuts.

This is the best burn off the week.

Quote
You've been lost to the propaganda machine and can't see the light.

Why do you think everyone with non-left or "non-woke" views have been convinced to think so by some kind of rightwing propaganda?  But you yourself are immune to such propaganda?  Most people can think for themselves, and buy into messages based on their ideological biases.  I think it's these core ideological beliefs that are the crux of the matter.

Right and left will never get along, their core philosophical tenets are the exact opposites of each other, which is why they don't understand each other, and think the other as evil, stupid, demented or whatnot.  It's why you have such strong resentment for me and/or my opinions, and I of yours.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: cybercoma on December 06, 2019, 09:48:01 pm
It’s not about non left views...it’s about parroting propaganda and alt right buzz words.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 06, 2019, 11:11:58 pm
It’s not about non left views...it’s about parroting propaganda and alt right buzz words.

How do we define or determine what's propoganda?  Here's what you said earlier:

Quote
kimmy, I still hold that you’re elevating the views of an extremist minority who are probably being amplified by alt-right propaganda to undermine trans rights more generally. The more I read about Yaniv and “her” idiocy, the more I’m convinced “she” isn’t really trans at all—the latest scenario being “her” demanding to see an OBGYN.

Stop elevating extremists and undermining the valid and legitimate effort of trans people and their fight for human rights and dignity. You’re spending far more time highlighting garbage people with garbage view instead of the real concerns of the trans community more broadly. Consequently, you are part of the problem. You undermine the real fight by focusing on idiots whose sole purpose is to make trans people look bad.

Sure she's giving attention to the views of an radical minority, though that minority will push the boundaries until society or the law pushes back.  Yaniv isn't purely a troll, I mean her case went to the BC human rights tribunal, she was trying to push legal boundaries and set precedents, and the law pushed back.

Kimmy can still be for most trans rights, but not others that interfere with her rights, and that doesn't mean she's hurting all trans rights.  If some trans rights activists are pushing against "discriminatory genital preferences", which some are, even if a vocal minority, kimmy has the right to push back and say "no".  That doesn't mean all trans rights are illegitimate.

Quote
Frankly, I’m pretty sure this propaganda is being amplified by the alt-right and Russian troll farms looking to drive wedge in society to make people more distrustful of one another. This division corrupts and disables democratic institutions.

Where's the evidence for this? It sounds like a conspiracy theory.  I also don't know what alt-right has to do with trans rights.  Alt-right has to do with white nationalism.  Yes right-wing sites feature stories like Yaniv (though so does the CBC). I think most of these conservatives legit think these people and their ideas are nuts and drawing their lines in the sand too, as kimmy is.  Conservatives just might draw their lines different than kimmy when it comes to trans rights overall.

There's all sorts of social justice efforts that are great, but then people also need to draw a line in the sand, like this nonsense:  https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/apr/30/avengers-endgame-cinema-fat-shaming
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: the_squid on December 06, 2019, 11:25:58 pm
Right and left will never get along, their core philosophical tenets are the exact opposites of each other, which is why they don't understand each other, and think the other as evil, stupid, demented or whatnot.  It's why you have such strong resentment for me and/or my opinions, and I of yours.

Except I’m about as left as they come....   and I hate SJW nonsense and “wokeness”.   It’s not a left v. Right issue.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 07, 2019, 07:36:19 am

Right and left will never get along, their core philosophical tenets are the exact opposites of each other, which is why they don't understand each other, and think the other as evil, stupid, demented or whatnot.   

Good post, except for one thing missing: team politics are not consistent, so they're the exact opposite of each other sometimes but don't line up with themselves either. The new right attitude opposes world trade and immigration because it hurts working people but still opposes unions.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 08, 2019, 11:21:44 pm
I guess I don't understand your perception of the problem here: The girl has free choice to not have that particular gf if it isn't working out, chalk it up to a learning experience and choose differently in the future. Lousy sex partners who ignore a partner's needs are a dime a dozen, and deserve to be kicked to the curb.

I just don't see any undue element of coercion, any difference from anyone who determines that they've chosen the wrong partner. 

I see someone who has been hurt by terrible ideas she has been fed by well-meaning idiots.

This girl is miserable because try as she might, she can't "overcome her genital preferences". She thinks she's broken and awful because she can't feel sexual attraction to her partner. She thinks there's something wrong with *her*.  She thinks she needs conversion therapy.

As trans people and their allies promote this regressive, homophobic notion that your sexual orientation is just a preference or a fetish that you can "work through" or "get over", people like this girl are the collateral damage.

For a very long time, gay people were made to believe that there was something wrong with them. And gay people were told that they could be "fixed" or "healed" if they prayed hard enough, or wished hard enough, or went to "conversion therapy".  The idea that gay people could be "fixed" through prayer or wishing or vitamins or therapy or whatever else has made countless people miserable over the years.  And it doesn't work, and at this point has been discredited.

And finally at long last our society came to accept gay people as they are.

And that Golden Era lasted about ...  2 weeks.

Because at that moment, along came trans activists and their allies who started promoting this new idea that since trans-women are women, lesbians who don't want "girl-dick" in their sex lives are transphobic.

So now we're right back where we started, where gay women (I never see this directed at gay men, or straight men, or straight women) are being guilted and shamed for their sexual orientation-- being told they're "transphobic" if they're not open to sex with women that have male anatomy.

The girl who wrote that letter is miserable because she's swallowed a bunch of propaganda fed to her by people who care about making life better for trans-women but apparently don't give a **** that they're making life worse for the girls they're manipulating. The trans people and their allies really don't care if cis-lesbians are getting hurt as long as transwomen are getting the sex and emotional validation they feel entitled to.

"Standing up for her" ... how?
By telling her to break up with her partner?

By denouncing the incredibly bad, homophobic idea that sexual orientation is just a "preference".   It's a horrible idea that needs to be confronted and denounced wherever it rears its ugly head.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Granny on December 09, 2019, 07:41:20 am
I see someone who has been hurt by terrible ideas she has been fed by well-meaning idiots.

This girl is miserable because try as she might, she can't "overcome her genital preferences". She thinks she's broken and awful because she can't feel sexual attraction to her partner. She thinks there's something wrong with *her*.  She thinks she needs conversion therapy.

As trans people and their allies promote this regressive, homophobic notion that your sexual orientation is just a preference or a fetish that you can "work through" or "get over", people like this girl are the collateral damage.

For a very long time, gay people were made to believe that there was something wrong with them. And gay people were told that they could be "fixed" or "healed" if they prayed hard enough, or wished hard enough, or went to "conversion therapy".  The idea that gay people could be "fixed" through prayer or wishing or vitamins or therapy or whatever else has made countless people miserable over the years.  And it doesn't work, and at this point has been discredited.

And finally at long last our society came to accept gay people as they are.

And that Golden Era lasted about ...  2 weeks.

Because at that moment, along came trans activists and their allies who started promoting this new idea that since trans-women are women, lesbians who don't want "girl-dick" in their sex lives are transphobic.

So now we're right back where we started, where gay women (I never see this directed at gay men, or straight men, or straight women) are being guilted and shamed for their sexual orientation-- being told they're "transphobic" if they're not open to sex with women that have male anatomy.

The girl who wrote that letter is miserable because she's swallowed a bunch of propaganda fed to her by people who care about making life better for trans-women but apparently don't give a **** that they're making life worse for the girls they're manipulating. The trans people and their allies really don't care if cis-lesbians are getting hurt as long as transwomen are getting the sex and emotional validation they feel entitled to.

By denouncing the incredibly bad, homophobic idea that sexual orientation is just a "preference".   It's a horrible idea that needs to be confronted and denounced wherever it rears its ugly head.

 -k

It would be nice if all people just stopped telling other people who they 'should' want to have sex with, but there will always be assholes and free speech blah blah. Lol The only answer really is  free choice. If you're not with a person you want to be with sexually, you depart.
The propaganda will still go on, but nobody is forced (eg, by law) to conform.
Despite changes in law, there are still sectors of society who believe or preach that gay sex is a sin. They're wrong, but they won't likely change.
Maybe there will also always be Trans folk who think sex with lesbians is their 'right'. They're wrong, but they won't likely change either.

Therapy may help the girl resist the persuasion of others and do what is right for herself, the only solution really.
If there are issues of possible abuse, force or retaliation upon departure, that's a whole other, possibly legal, issue.

Just musing but ... I'm a bit curious why Trans women are focusing their efforts on cis-lesbians, when there are likely many women who like dick and would also appreciate a partner with a feminine perspective.

Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 09, 2019, 09:06:32 pm
Except I’m about as left as they come....   and I hate SJW nonsense and “wokeness”.   It’s not a left v. Right issue.

Then why aren't there any woke conservatives?
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on December 09, 2019, 09:11:40 pm
Good post, except for one thing missing: team politics are not consistent, so they're the exact opposite of each other sometimes but don't line up with themselves either. The new right attitude opposes world trade and immigration because it hurts working people but still opposes unions.

True.  It's strange.

Capitalism really rules over everything.  It makes it necessary for high immigration and free trade.  You can want to bring the manufacturing jobs back or significantly reduce immigration or reduce CO2 but stock markets and GDP growth demand otherwise.  There's almost no choice unless you want to shoot yourself in the foot economically. Resistance is futile. It's been that way for many hundreds of years though.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: wilber on December 09, 2019, 10:09:43 pm
Then why aren't there any woke conservatives?

The term "woke" is just a claim to some sort of intellectual superiority.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: the_squid on December 09, 2019, 10:27:33 pm
Then why aren't there any woke conservatives?

I didn't say there were.   Not not everyone on "the left" supports being awake. 
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 10, 2019, 02:13:26 am


Why do you think it has a lot of traction ? 

You are not engaging on that topic because it's worth considering, or it's being debated in the general population IMO but because it enrages you. 

That's fine too but look objectively at how that idea has travelled through the mechanics and flow of the "marketplace of ideas".  It's a new thing, or at least a re-discovering of an old and forgotten way that the system works:

1. Outrageous idea is developed by fringe dwellers
2. Intelligent people become away of said idea and are outraged
3. Intelligent people bring the idea into general discussion
4. Now the general population is aware of it

This all seems like a new flow that happens because of angertainment.
 

Experience is valid, but doesn't scale to the level of 'general problem'.  I believe the surveys I have read had good methodology but I will look again.

You don't have to quote a survey to get me to care about your personal and specific experience.  That is important and has a role to play.
 

I hear you and I care.

The way I think of such things is that you have to balance between:

"You can't legislate everything"
and
"We must ensure actions so that we can try to make sure [XYZ] never happens"

I am very confused by what happened here, because these are obviously Michael's words, but the forum thinks it's my post?!

I didn't notice this post earlier, and will respond to it later.

 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: kimmy on December 10, 2019, 02:45:45 am
Just musing but ... I'm a bit curious why Trans women are focusing their efforts on cis-lesbians, when there are likely many women who like dick and would also appreciate a partner with a feminine perspective.

Validation.

If a straight woman wants to have sex with a trans-woman, it means she actually sees him as a man, which isn't how she wants to be seen.  The relationship would be based on, from the trans-woman's perspective, her being misgendered.  At best the straight woman is into the trans-woman because she doesn't understand the trans-woman's identity... or worse perhaps she has a fetishized view of them.

If a lesbian wants to have sex with a trans-woman, it would validate the trans-woman's identity as a woman. She would have a lover who sees her as she sees herself-- as a woman, not as a cross-dressing man.


It would be nice if all people just stopped telling other people who they 'should' want to have sex with, but there will always be assholes and free speech blah blah. Lol The only answer really is  free choice. If you're not with a person you want to be with sexually, you depart.
The propaganda will still go on, but nobody is forced (eg, by law) to conform.
Despite changes in law, there are still sectors of society who believe or preach that gay sex is a sin. They're wrong, but they won't likely change.
Maybe there will also always be Trans folk who think sex with lesbians is their 'right'. They're wrong, but they won't likely change either.

Therapy may help the girl resist the persuasion of others and do what is right for herself, the only solution really.
If there are issues of possible abuse, force or retaliation upon departure, that's a whole other, possibly legal, issue.


What's going on at campus LGBT clubs and other gay spaces right now is that there is a lot of pressure to be trans-positive, because if people decide you're not trans-positive, you're not allowed.    So you get conversations that go like this:

Gaia: "Hi Becky, I was wondering if you'd like to go out with me Friday."
Becky: "Oh hi, Gaia... I'm sorry, but I'm gay... I'm not into guys."
Gaia: "Well I'm not a guy. I'm a woman. I'm still transitioning, but I'm a woman. So if you're into women, there should be no problem!"
Becky: "Uh, I'm sorry, I'm just not really attracted to you."
Gaia: "why? Is it because I'm trans?"
Becky: "No, it's just that--"
Gaia: "It's because I'm trans, isn't it! Oh my god, Becky is transphobic!  Becky's a TERF! Hey, everybody! Becky's a TERF!"
Everybody: "OMG Becky how could you" "Becky WTF" "GTFO, Becky, we don't want you here." "Get lost TERF scum!"
Becky: "but guys, I just--"
"Becky, you're not welcome here anymore. Just leave."

and of course after the other girls see what happens to Becky, you get this:

Gaia: "Hi Katie, would you like to go out with me Friday?"
Katie: "uhhhhh  ... yes?"

Because being perceived as being transphobic means being disowned, everybody is desperate to prove they're trans-inclusive.  Whether it's by going on a date with Gaia, or by being part of the lynch mob that strings up Becky, people want to prove they're trans-positive so that they don't end up like Becky.

Cybercoma will probably tell you that this is just propaganda, that this doesn't really happen. I have read enough stories from women who have been on the receiving end of this kind of witch-hunt to know that it does happen.


 -k
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: ?Impact on December 10, 2019, 10:39:15 am
If a straight woman wants to have sex with a trans-woman, it means she actually sees him as a man, which isn't how she wants to be seen.  The relationship would be based on, from the trans-woman's perspective, her being misgendered.  At best the straight woman is into the trans-woman because she doesn't understand the trans-woman's identity... or worse perhaps she has a fetishized view of them.

Perhaps she wants to have sex with him/her/whatever based on first impressions without knowing them. That does happen you know, regardless of gender, gender identity, sexual preference, etc. Peoples opinions change after they get to know someone, in all sorts of ways.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Granny on December 10, 2019, 07:43:10 pm

I also don't know what alt-right has to do with trans rights.  Alt-right has to do with white nationalism.
White Christian heterosexual male chauvinist nationalism.

Like those pushing #Wexit:
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/my-hometown-is-the-epicentre-of-wexit-i-went-back-to-find-out-why/ar-BBY0aaU?ocid=st
"The federal government we have in Ottawa is trying to disarm us. They are ignoring Canadian voices on the number of immigrants they want to come into the country,” Bell shouts, leaning into the podium. “They are introducing motions and legislation to curb free speech. They are increasingly anti-person, promoting drag queens to kids as well as telling kids there is no such thing as being a boy or a girl. And they are promoting a forced in-your-face LGBT agenda.”

The crowd, many sporting hats with “Wexit” and “Alberta Strong” on them, went wild.


It's a package deal, wherever white supremacists are recruiting.
Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: Granny on December 11, 2019, 02:48:18 am
Validation.

If a straight woman wants to have sex with a trans-woman, it means she actually sees him as a man, which isn't how she wants to be seen.  The relationship would be based on, from the trans-woman's perspective, her being misgendered.  At best the straight woman is into the trans-woman because she doesn't understand the trans-woman's identity... or worse perhaps she has a fetishized view of them.

If a lesbian wants to have sex with a trans-woman, it would validate the trans-woman's identity as a woman. She would have a lover who sees her as she sees herself-- as a woman, not as a cross-dressing man.

What's going on at campus LGBT clubs and other gay spaces right now is that there is a lot of pressure to be trans-positive, because if people decide you're not trans-positive, you're not allowed.    So you get conversations that go like this:

Gaia: "Hi Becky, I was wondering if you'd like to go out with me Friday."
Becky: "Oh hi, Gaia... I'm sorry, but I'm gay... I'm not into guys."
Gaia: "Well I'm not a guy. I'm a woman. I'm still transitioning, but I'm a woman. So if you're into women, there should be no problem!"
Becky: "Uh, I'm sorry, I'm just not really attracted to you."
Gaia: "why? Is it because I'm trans?"
Becky: "No, it's just that--"
Gaia: "It's because I'm trans, isn't it! Oh my god, Becky is transphobic!  Becky's a TERF! Hey, everybody! Becky's a TERF!"
Everybody: "OMG Becky how could you" "Becky WTF" "GTFO, Becky, we don't want you here." "Get lost TERF scum!"
Becky: "but guys, I just--"
"Becky, you're not welcome here anymore. Just leave."

and of course after the other girls see what happens to Becky, you get this:

Gaia: "Hi Katie, would you like to go out with me Friday?"
Katie: "uhhhhh  ... yes?"

Because being perceived as being transphobic means being disowned, everybody is desperate to prove they're trans-inclusive.  Whether it's by going on a date with Gaia, or by being part of the lynch mob that strings up Becky, people want to prove they're trans-positive so that they don't end up like Becky.

Cybercoma will probably tell you that this is just propaganda, that this doesn't really happen. I have read enough stories from women who have been on the receiving end of this kind of witch-hunt to know that it does happen.
-k

In your scenario, Becky calling a Trans woman a 'guy' while turning them down was disrespectful, unnecessary, insulting and likely to make things go sideways. Was it transphobic? Well ... ?
It's never wise to invite argument by trying to explain why you're not attracted to someone. Saying "no" already says that you're not.

I'd wonder how widespread a problem it is that a peer group that would join in and try to bully a person into dating someone they already turned down, 'shun' them the way you describe. Really?

Everybody has to stand up for their own right to choose their own partners for their own reasons,  like Katie and  'the girl' in your previous scenario will have to do. 




Title: Re: LGBTQ Culture
Post by: MH on December 11, 2019, 05:53:17 am

I'd wonder how widespread a problem it is that a peer group that would join in and try to bully a person into dating someone they already turned down, 'shun' them the way you describe. Really?


We talked about that.  kimmy says it is at least somewhat, so who am I to say?