Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Boges on September 23, 2019, 11:03:52 am


Title: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 23, 2019, 11:03:52 am
I'm going to let you guys do the research on Miss Thunberg. But she's the Autistic Swedish teenager who's been touring the Northeast US lecturing people on the climate.

She really doesn't have any concrete suggestions. She just speaks in platitudes about how the world will end if we don't act and how her generation is being betrayed by the ones from the past.

https://news.sky.com/story/greta-thunberg-warns-world-leaders-that-change-is-coming-11817903

We have another thread about concrete things we can do to avoid "Climate Change". Realistic proposals on how to move away from Carbon. I think we mostly agree that it'll be a process unless we want to destroy world economies.

Sure there are deniers who put their head in the sand. But those voices are being largely isolated and ignored. Obviously the biggest threat is POTUS 45. But even he is swimming up streams and reversing laws just to show he's not Obama.

But back to Greta. Is this type of sensationalism helpful? Does she not recognize that the technological advances she's railing against allowed her to be born into such privilege that she can fear the Climate Crisis to the level she does? That her niche compromises to environmentalism are rather extreme and unrealistic for vast swaths of the world?

Some find her inspirational, I find her shrill and condescending. And condescending from an unearned spot.

Young people can be idealistic, because they've never actually faced the realities on an adult life.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 23, 2019, 11:08:01 am
Meh.

The details aren't important.  She's an idealistic child who cares about the planet.

She has successfully occupied the news cycle for a few days.

I would prefer a smarter discussion, but this is where we are right now.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: bcsapper on September 23, 2019, 11:19:05 am
More than a few days.  I feel sorry for the kid.  She gets up in New York and cries on the podium, and nobody gives a toss. 

Whoever is telling her she is making a difference should be ashamed of themselves.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 23, 2019, 12:43:04 pm
Naw - she is making a 'difference' in terms of things being discussed and maybe some people becoming aware.  It's her cause and she has picked a tough one so good for her.

Anyone who mocks her emotionality, though, should be forced to read a year's worth of angry rightista snowflakes post that are written about the GLOBALIST SCAM ALL CAPS.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: bcsapper on September 23, 2019, 12:48:55 pm
Naw - she is making a 'difference' in terms of things being discussed and maybe some people becoming aware.  It's her cause and she has picked a tough one so good for her.

Anyone who mocks her emotionality, though, should be forced to read a year's worth of angry rightista snowflakes post that are written about the GLOBALIST SCAM ALL CAPS.

I don't see how she has changed the discussion.  The discussion has been going on for years.  Awareness has not been a problem for a couple of decades now.  We are all aware.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 23, 2019, 12:50:52 pm
Naw - she is making a 'difference' in terms of things being discussed and maybe some people becoming aware.  It's her cause and she has picked a tough one so good for her.

Anyone who mocks her emotionality, though, should be forced to read a year's worth of angry rightista snowflakes post that are written about the GLOBALIST SCAM ALL CAPS.

She can't have it both ways. She can't hold modern civilization in contempt and feel she can avoid criticism. I don't think she shows any real level of maturity. She's making, not getting her way on Climate change, into an international temper tantrum.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 23, 2019, 01:25:02 pm
I don't see how she has changed the discussion.  The discussion has been going on for years.  Awareness has not been a problem for a couple of decades now.  We are all aware.

She hasn't changed the discussion, she is just adding awareness.  That is 'making a difference', at least arguably.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 23, 2019, 01:27:23 pm
1. She can't have it both ways. She can't hold modern civilization in contempt and feel she can avoid criticism.

2. I don't think she shows any real level of maturity. She's making, not getting her way on Climate change, into an international temper tantrum.
1. Does she think she's above criticism ?  Too bad, as she will be picked apart and harassed her whole life from now on.

2. Ok, well.... that's the criticism then.  A 16-year old is immature.  Also, the nations of the world are not acting on climate change.  I will prioritize #2 as an issue. 

But anybody can feel free to criticize her, that's fine with me.  "She's immature".  Ok then.  Noted.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 23, 2019, 01:32:11 pm
She can't have it both ways. She can't hold modern civilization in contempt and feel she can avoid criticism. I don't think she shows any real level of maturity. She's making, not getting her way on Climate change, into an international temper tantrum.

Well her so called temper tantrum did draw millions of supporters out around the world for the Global Climate Strike/March recently, so I would say she is making some way. Yep, she's just a kid with no real power but events such as this get people talking, and thinking. And there is ample evidence of climate change available for people who do have some power to look into.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: the_squid on September 23, 2019, 02:08:04 pm
It's great when young people get involved in issues like this.  She's a leader for youth all over the world.  She's 16 and is autistic.  Did you expect her to make Obama-like speeches? 

Young people should be calling for action on climate change from governments.  And they will be voters in a couple years, if they get excited enough about an issue. 

Or do people prefer youth to be boring and apathetic so they won't bother voting? 
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 23, 2019, 02:38:53 pm
Well her so called temper tantrum did draw millions of supporters out around the world for the Global Climate Strike/March recently, so I would say she is making some way. Yep, she's just a kid with no real power but events such as this get people talking, and thinking. And there is ample evidence of climate change available for people who do have some power to look into.

Again, I'm not denying Climate change nor am I denying something to be done. But basically holding society in contempt is not a productive way to start a dialogue.

She's certainly not letting details and ideas get in the way of her indignation.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 23, 2019, 02:56:54 pm
Again, I'm not denying Climate change nor am I denying something to be done. But basically holding society in contempt is not a productive way to start a dialogue.

She's certainly not letting details and idea get in the way of her indignation.

Yea she may have been a bit too heavy on the indignation approach, but she also had some facts and figures she had researched. And again, the overall effort may actually help get something done.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 23, 2019, 03:00:17 pm
Yea she may have been a bit too heavy on the indignation approach, but she also had some facts and figures she had researched. And again, the overall effort may actually help get something done.

Not in the US with 45 in charge.

The changes need to be grassroots based. And I think we're already seeing progressed there. We don't want governments telling us to buy fuel efficient cars or to eat less meat, but it we see it may be in our best interests we will.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Bubbermiley on September 23, 2019, 03:58:33 pm
I think there needs to be more indignation.  Remind the boomers how much their grandchildren will despise them once they're gone and the chickens come home to roost.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: bcsapper on September 23, 2019, 05:21:05 pm
I think there needs to be more indignation. 

It was funny watching her expression change when Trump walked past.  If looks could kill...
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: ?Impact on September 23, 2019, 06:12:17 pm
Young people can be idealistic, because they've never actually faced the realities on an adult life.

Realities? You mean they haven't been indoctrinated into the religion of money?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 23, 2019, 07:06:27 pm
  But basically holding society in contempt is not a productive way to start a dialogue.
 

I agree with this AND her anger....
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 24, 2019, 12:17:38 am
I'm mostly indifferent to her.  I don't think she's very relevant to the issue.  Her poorly educated opinion is as important as most every other person's poorly educated opinion on the topic.

There's the science, and then there's real, practical, workable solutions.  Everything else is just hot air.  WAAAAYYY tooo many people have under-educated opinions on climate when most people just need to STFU and listen like the rest of us.  A very small % of the population is qualified to give opinions of the science and the possible solutions.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2019, 12:27:05 am
I'm mostly indifferent to her.  I don't think she's very relevant to the issue.  Her poorly educated opinion is as important as most every other person's poorly educated opinion on the topic.

There's the science, and then there's real, practical, workable solutions.  Everything else is just hot air.  WAAAAYYY tooo many people have under-educated opinions on climate when most people just need to STFU and listen like the rest of us.  A very small % of the population is qualified to give opinions of the science and the possible solutions.

You should maybe STFU and pay attention to the ~97% of professionally educated climate scientists who agree global warming is a real issue, supported by actual data.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 24, 2019, 08:24:32 am
You should maybe STFU and pay attention to the ~97% of professionally educated climate scientists who agree global warming is a real issue, supported by actual data.

Sure. Lets agree with those people.

But what will be done? Banning meat production? Banning personal cars? Banning Natural Gas? Banning Air Travel? Heck Manufacturing of Medical supplies? (ALL THE PLASTIC!!!!)
And the big one...Banning human reproduction?

Sure, that's hyperbole. But without concrete workable solutions, that's all I assume people like Greta with her stern platitudes have.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 24, 2019, 09:32:37 am
Make CO2 a cost, thereby invoking the market to solve it.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 24, 2019, 09:33:21 am
Make CO2 a cost, thereby invoking the market to solve it.

We have carbon pricing in Canada. Does anyone really drive all that much less?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2019, 11:51:25 am
We have carbon pricing in Canada. Does anyone really drive all that much less?

I do, I plan my trips better and apparently others here in BC do too. Emissions have dropped here 4.7% since the carbon tax was levied.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 24, 2019, 12:13:49 pm
I do, I plan my trips better and apparently others here in BC do too. Emissions have dropped here 4.7% since the carbon tax was levied.

Greta spits at that level of Carbon reduction.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 24, 2019, 12:16:32 pm
We have carbon pricing in Canada. Does anyone really drive all that much less?

That's not the point - the $ from the tax can be used to offset the extra carbon, planting trees etc.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 24, 2019, 12:31:07 pm
That's not the point - the $ from the tax can be used to offset the extra carbon, planting trees etc.

Sure. I'm all for that. Greta is still disappointed in that level of inaction.

(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190923112443-04-greta-thunberg-un-0923-medium-plus-169.jpg)
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2019, 12:58:21 pm
Sure. I'm all for that. Greta is still disappointed in that level of inaction.

(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190923112443-04-greta-thunberg-un-0923-medium-plus-169.jpg)

Well I see Trump has sent out a tweet mocking her.  The POTUS picking on a 16 year old who gave an emotional speech aimed at focusing attention on harm to our climate. Apparently the knuckledraggers who support him are cheering from the stands.Talk about a disappointing level of reaction.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 24, 2019, 01:01:36 pm
Sure. I'm all for that. Greta is still disappointed in that level of inaction.

(https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/190923112443-04-greta-thunberg-un-0923-medium-plus-169.jpg)

Ok, well... She's probably devastated that we can't even get that small step approved.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 24, 2019, 01:02:47 pm
Well I see Trump has sent out a tweet mocking her.  The POTUS picking on a 16 year old who gave an emotional speech aimed at focusing attention on harm to our climate. Apparently the knuckledraggers who support him are cheering from the stands.Talk about a disappointing level of reaction.

Well what authority does a 16-year-old have on this issue? I'll concede Trump has no authority either.

And are you accusing me of supporting Trump?

We're in this situation where, because she's an autistic teen, she's to be above critique. Because anyone who'd criticize a widdle girl is a meanie.

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 24, 2019, 01:06:36 pm
We're in this situation where, because she's an autistic teen, she's to be above critique. Because anyone who'd criticize a widdle girl is a meanie.

Well... let's put it this way: she's making an emotional plea.  Pretty much nobody thinks it's a bad idea to follow what she is generally saying.

Picking at her message... why do that ?  She can't be counted on to provide solid policy options and we're not taking new ideas anyway - the bare minimum is what we're trying like hell to move forward.

And as for making fun of her... That's the Republican brand right there.  It has been taken over by snoflakes.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2019, 01:10:42 pm
Well what authority does a 16-year-old have on this issue? I'll concede Trump has no authority either.

And are you accusing me of supporting Trump?

We're in this situation where, because she's an autistic teen, she's to be above critique. Because anyone who'd criticize a widdle girl is a meanie.

Trump has no authority? He's the friggin' POTUS!
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 24, 2019, 01:11:16 pm
Well... let's put it this way: she's making an emotional plea.  Pretty much nobody thinks it's a bad idea to follow what she is generally saying.

Picking at her message... why do that ?  She can't be counted on to provide solid policy options and we're not taking new ideas anyway - the bare minimum is what we're trying like hell to move forward.

And as for making fun of her... That's the Republican brand right there.  It has been taken over by snoflakes.

I just think they're meaningless platitudes.

I'm all for reducing carbon, but are we talking about taking away freedoms and technological achievements to those reductions? Humans will solve the problem, because they have to, or because it's advantageous, not because a teenager is having a tantrum on TV.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 24, 2019, 01:12:53 pm
Trump has no authority? He's the friggin' POTUS!

I mean in having an informed or constructive opinion on Climate Change.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 24, 2019, 01:37:04 pm
I mean in having an informed or constructive opinion on Climate Change.

So while he has no "informed or constructive opinion" on something as important as the climate, it's OK for him to mock a 16 year old who does? 
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 24, 2019, 01:45:40 pm
1. I'm all for reducing carbon, but are we talking about taking away freedoms and technological achievements to those reductions?
2. Humans will solve the problem, because they have to, or because it's advantageous, not because a teenager is having a tantrum on TV.
1. Probably not, but reducing CO2 is a technological achievement also.
2. Believe it or not, at least one person out there changed their mind because of her.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: the_squid on September 24, 2019, 01:59:54 pm
An autistic teen doesn't inspire some old fogies...   not surprising there.  I'm not sure old fogies are redeemable...   

if she can inspire a few young people to vote and make a difference in their communities, that's pretty darn good.

Quote
“Do you think they will hear us?” she asked the crowd of schoolchildren, teens and their adult allies. “We will make them hear us.”

https://thetyee.ca/News/2019/09/20/NYC-Climate-Strike/

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on September 25, 2019, 05:57:09 am
An autistic teen doesn't inspire some old fogies...   not surprising there.  I'm not sure old fogies are redeemable...   

if she can inspire a few young people to vote and make a difference in their communities, that's pretty darn good.

https://thetyee.ca/News/2019/09/20/NYC-Climate-Strike/

“Some” old fogies squidlet. We aren’t a “thing” any more than any other age group.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: SuperColinBlow on September 25, 2019, 08:14:36 am
That's rather hopeful, Squid.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on September 25, 2019, 09:28:33 am
Kids have no real power other than shaming their elders into doing the right thing.
IMO, she is trying hard but some have no shame.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Bubbermiley on September 25, 2019, 11:53:41 am
I don't quite understand the obsession among those who just want to attack her personally and whine about how people in general consider personally attacking teenage girls to be pathetic. It doesn't matter if she is in the public eye or saying things you disagree with. It's still pathetic to personally attack a teenage girl.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 25, 2019, 12:23:45 pm
I don't quite understand the obsession among those who just want to attack her personally and whine about how people in general consider personally attacking teenage girls to be pathetic. It doesn't matter if she is in the public eye or saying things you disagree with. It's still pathetic to personally attack a teenage girl.

Mind if I forward this to the White House: attn: POTUS?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 26, 2019, 07:24:39 pm
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-on-climate-change-humanity-is-not-evil/

Quote
Speaking at the United Nations, 16-year-old Swedish activist Greta Thunberg said that if humanity really understands the science of climate change and still fails to act, we’re “evil.” This is because climate change means “people are dying.” Helpfully, she also told us what we must do to act correctly: In a bit more than eight years, we will have exhausted our remaining allowance for carbon emissions, so we must shut down everything running on fossil fuels by 2028.

While this claim is not uncommon, it is fundamentally misguided. Yes, global warming is real and human-caused, but her vision of climate change as the end of the world is unsupported. The UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates that by the 2070s, the total effects of climate change, including on ecosystems, will be equivalent to a reduction in average income of 0.2 to 2 per cent. By then, each person on the planet will be 300 to 500 per-cent richer.

We don’t emit CO2 with malign intent. Indeed, it is a byproduct of giving humanity access to unprecedented amounts of energy.

Just a century ago, life was back-breaking. Plentiful energy made better lives possible, without having to spend hours collecting firewood, polluting your household with smoke, achieving heat, cold, transportation, light, food and opportunities. Life expectancy doubled. Plentiful energy, mostly from fossil fuels, has lifted more than a billion people out of poverty in just the past 25 years.

That is not evil – it is quite the opposite.
The fact that alarmists are reduced to exploiting a teenager in order to promote their ideology is more a statement about the intellectual bankruptcy of the alarmists than those who have the temerity to question the reasons for putting such person on a media pedestal.

Lack of intellectual honesty is a huge problem in this debate. We are not going to reduce emissions significantly as long as human population is rising (certainly not to the zero claimed to be necessary to stave off disaster). No amount of wailing and nashing of teeth will change this reality. The only real choice is whether we choose to severely damage our economy in a futile attempt to reduce CO2 emissions or do we simply stop worrying about it and deal with the consequences as best as we are able (consequences that we have to deal with no matter what effort is put into emission reductions). The latter is the best gift we can give to future generations because they will be richer and better able to adapt than they would be if we deliberately undermined the economy.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 26, 2019, 08:33:01 pm
What ?  Where you been ?  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 26, 2019, 08:46:15 pm
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-on-climate-change-humanity-is-not-evil/
The fact that alarmists are reduced to exploiting a teenager in order to promote their ideology is more a statement about the intellectual bankruptcy of the alarmists than those who have the temerity to question the reasons for putting such person on a media pedestal.

Lack of intellectual honesty is a huge problem in this debate. We are not going to reduce emissions significantly as long as human population is rising (certainly not to the zero claimed to be necessary to stave off disaster). No amount of wailing and nashing of teeth will change this reality. The only real choice is whether we choose to severely damage our economy in a futile attempt to reduce CO2 emissions or do we simply stop worrying about it and deal with the consequences as best as we are able (consequences that we have to deal with no matter what effort is put into emission reductions). The latter is the best gift we can give to future generations because they will be richer and better able to adapt than they would be if we deliberately undermined the economy.

The fact that deniers are reduced to suggesting this teenager, and a few million others, were "exploited" in order to promote their ideology is more a statement about the intellectual bankruptcy of the deniers than those who have the temerity to question the reasons this young lady chose to put herself on a media pedestal.
No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth will change the reality that the environment is being seriously harmed by fossil fuels. The economy can and will evolve to support renewables just as it did to support burning fossils.
And here's one little takeaway for ya, there is a last barrel of sludge down there and we will look pretty stupid if we wait until we pull that last one out and stand around going "well now what, I'm cold?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on September 26, 2019, 10:24:28 pm
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-on-climate-change-humanity-is-not-evil/
The fact that alarmists are reduced to exploiting a teenager in order to promote their ideology is more a statement about the intellectual bankruptcy of the alarmists than those who have the temerity to question the reasons for putting such person on a media pedestal.

Lack of intellectual honesty is a huge problem in this debate. We are not going to reduce emissions significantly as long as human population is rising (certainly not to the zero claimed to be necessary to stave off disaster). No amount of wailing and nashing of teeth will change this reality. The only real choice is whether we choose to severely damage our economy in a futile attempt to reduce CO2 emissions or do we simply stop worrying about it and deal with the consequences as best as we are able (consequences that we have to deal with no matter what effort is put into emission reductions). The latter is the best gift we can give to future generations because they will be richer and better able to adapt than they would be if we deliberately undermined the economy.

The fact deniers will blow off the concerns of the young just because they are young is very sad reflection on them. The idea that we should do nothing to try and mitigate the effects of human caused warming and just deal with the consequences without any evidence that we will be able to, is nothing more than blind faith.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 12:15:15 am
The fact deniers will blow off the concerns of the young just because they are young is very sad reflection on them. The idea that we should do nothing to try and mitigate the effects of human caused warming and just deal with the consequences without any evidence that we will be able to, is nothing more than blind faith.
And where is your evidence that "doing something" will actually help? You have nothing but blind faith.  Anyone who sits down and does the math when it comes to the energy our society needs to function and the technology available to us can only come to the conclusion that "doing something" is futile given the alleged time frames. The only rational course of action is preserve our resources and adapt because that is what we will end up doing anyways. But instead of thinking rationally about the choices we really have you want to pretend we have choices we don't and you want to force other people to spend their time and resources on pointless exercises that do nothing but make you feel better about yourself. What incredible selfishness! If you want to reduce CO2 emissions then make your own choices and spend your own money. Leave people who do not share your futile need to "do something" out of it. i.e. keep your religion to yourself.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2019, 12:27:56 am
And where is your evidence that "doing something" will actually help? You have nothing but blind faith.  Anyone who sits down and does the math when it comes to the energy our society needs to function and the technology available to us can only come to the conclusion that "doing something" is futile given the alleged time frames. The only rational course of action is preserve our resources and adapt because that is what we will end up doing anyways. But instead of thinking rationally about the choices we really have you want to pretend we have choices we don't and you want to force other people to spend their time and resources on pointless exercises that do nothing but make you feel better about yourself. What incredible selfishness! If you want to reduce CO2 emissions then make your own choices and spend your own money. Leave people who do not share your futile need to "do something" out of it.

Wilber I'm sure, like all the rest of us, spend their own money paying taxes. Maybe we should divert those taxes toward renewable, healthy energy sources instead of using it to clean up abandoned oil wells. 
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 12:37:27 am
Wilber I'm sure, like all the rest of us, spend their own money paying taxes. Maybe we should divert those taxes toward renewable, healthy energy sources instead of using it to clean up abandoned oil wells.
I don't care if Christians or Muslims spend their money on churches and mosques because they believe in imaginary things. However, the government has no business using tax dollars or regulations to promote Christianity, Islam, Climate Change Alarmism or any other religion simply because a subset of the population adheres to it.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2019, 12:52:08 am
I don't care if Christians or Muslims spend their money on churches and mosques because they believe in imaginary things. However, the government has no business using tax dollars or regulations to promote Christianity, Islam, Climate Change Alarmism or any other religion simply because a subset of the population adheres to it.

Science isn't a religion. Air pollution isn't a religion. Global warming isn't a product of religion. But I'm not surprised you would flail around trying to make that connection.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 12:55:36 am
Science isn't a religion. Air pollution isn't a religion. Global warming isn't a product of religion.
Climate change is real enough. The belief that we can do anything about it given the technology and economic resources currently available is a religion. Learn the difference.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2019, 01:01:08 am
Climate change is real enough. The belief that we can do anything about it given the technology and economic resources currently available is a religion. Learn the difference.

I just pointed out the difference to you. Did god tell you we must burn up all the fossil fuels before we wake up?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 01:04:26 am
I just pointed out the difference to you. Did god tell you we must burn up all the fossil fuels before we wake up?
There is no science that says we can do anything meaningful about CO2 emissions in the time frames being discussed (10-30 years). In fact the science supports my view that we can only nibble at the margins. If you cared about science you would understand that. But climate change is not a science to you. It is a religion and I am an infidel that must be forced to submit.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2019, 01:11:43 am
There is no science that says we can do anything meaningful about CO2 emissions in the time frames being discussed (10-30 years). In fact the science supports my view that we can only nibble at the margins. If you cared about science you would understand that. But climate change is not a science to you. It is a religion and I am an infidel that must be forced to submit.

You've got it backwards as to who succumbs to "religion", and I suspect you cherry pick your science. Have you looked lately at how much arctic ice has melted? The st. photos wouldn't require you have a lot of scientific knowledge. 
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 01:22:27 am
You've got it backwards as to who succumbs to "religion", and I suspect you cherry pick your science. Have you looked lately at how much arctic ice has melted? The st. photos wouldn't require you have a lot of scientific knowledge.
Huh? That has nothing to do with my argument. I am not claiming that the planet is not getting warmer nor I am claiming that CO2 is not an issue. I am saying that we have no economically viable technology that can do anything significant about CO2 emissions over the next 10-30 years so people claiming we can reduce emissions by 50%-100% in that timeframe are delusional nutbars that are basing their belief on a religion.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Bubbermiley on September 27, 2019, 07:29:06 am
Sounds like you're subscribing to the "we can't do anything at all" religion to me.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 07:58:36 am
Sounds like you're subscribing to the "we can't do anything at all" religion to me.
Except I am not. Nowhere did I say we could not reduce emissions at all. What I said is we cannot possibly do it at the rate being demanded by clueless alarmists. This means that we will either be faced with a massive adaption problem which will be made harder if we deny ourselves access to the tools needed to adapt (i.e. low cost energy) or the alarmists are wrong and there is no reason to panic. There is no situation where aggressive reduction policies will accomplish anything useful and people pushing them despite the evidence that they cannot work are religious zealots that should be keeping their religion to themselves.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 27, 2019, 08:52:54 am
There's a new Documentary on Netflix about Bill Gates and how, in his post Microsoft life, he likes to try and solve the world's problems.

Apparently 5 years ago he was able to build a very safe nuclear reactor that runs on spent uranium that already exists.

A technical solution that could help cut emissions drastically. But because of Trump's China Trade war and the fact that people still think Nuclear Power is the devil, the plan has been shelved.

There aren't enough batteries in the world to store the power that solar and wind creates. You still need fossil fuels to support those forms of technology and they take a huge portion of land.

Basically people who "want something done!!!" only seem to want to talk about Carbon pricing and renewables.

Both are unworkable in today's economy.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on September 27, 2019, 09:21:16 am
And where is your evidence that "doing something" will actually help? You have nothing but blind faith.  Anyone who sits down and does the math when it comes to the energy our society needs to function and the technology available to us can only come to the conclusion that "doing something" is futile given the alleged time frames. The only rational course of action is preserve our resources and adapt because that is what we will end up doing anyways. But instead of thinking rationally about the choices we really have you want to pretend we have choices we don't and you want to force other people to spend their time and resources on pointless exercises that do nothing but make you feel better about yourself. What incredible selfishness! If you want to reduce CO2 emissions then make your own choices and spend your own money. Leave people who do not share your futile need to "do something" out of it. i.e. keep your religion to yourself.

How are you so certain you know what we will have to deal with and whether we will be able to. You are relying on no more but blind faith. Preserve what resources, you don’t even know what you will need or whether it will even exist. You must also think dealing with the results of drug addiction is preferable to dealing with its causes.
Don’t call me selfish, you just want to continue living as you are, leaving the mess to those kids you respect so little. They aren’t having it.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 27, 2019, 09:40:25 am
Don’t call me selfish, you just want to continue living as you are, leaving the mess to those kids you respect so little. They aren’t having it.

Yes, and I'm sure those kids will be happy with the prospect of a world were travel is impossible, that food is restricted to low carbon options and electricity is prohibitively expensive.

Gotta love millenials that love to travel to Southeast Asia complaining that adults drive to work.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: cybercoma on September 27, 2019, 10:54:33 am
There is no science that says we can do anything meaningful about CO2 emissions in the time frames being discussed (10-30 years).
No one:

TimG: If we can't reverse climate change completely in 10 years, we should do nothing at all!
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: cybercoma on September 27, 2019, 10:56:23 am
Except I am not. Nowhere did I say we could not reduce emissions at all.
Then we're all on the same page. Something needs to be done and now, since (as you say) it will take many decades to fix.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 27, 2019, 12:37:39 pm
Then we're all on the same page. Something needs to be done and now, since (as you say) it will take many decades to fix.

I think most of us are on the same page. But when "DO SOMETHING!" means eliminating the Airline and Meat Industries, people are like, naw, I'll pass on that.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/greta-thunberg-s-four-simple-steps-to-combat-climate-change-1.4613253

People are reducing their emissions by buying fuel efficient cars and having efficient appliances. I just got a new house this year. I hadn't paid utilities since around 2014/15.

I actually pay less now (on gas and hydro) than I did then, and I'm certain the price isn't less. It must be because I have a smart thermostat and more modern appliances.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on September 27, 2019, 01:51:00 pm
Yes, and I'm sure those kids will be happy with the prospect of a world were travel is impossible, that food is restricted to low carbon options and electricity is prohibitively expensive.

Gotta love millenials that love to travel to Southeast Asia complaining that adults drive to work.

The trouble with you guys is you continually claim it is all or nothing. That is nonsense. The more we do to mitigate the problem means the less we will have to do to cope with the consequences. You just want to drive the car into the ground and wait till it craps out before you do any maintenance on it.

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on September 27, 2019, 01:58:42 pm
The trouble with you guys is you continually claim it is all or nothing. That is nonsense. The more we do to mitigate the problem means the less we will have to do to cope with the consequences. You just want to drive the car into the ground and wait till it craps out before you do any maintenance on it.

I'm not calling for all or nothing solutions. I think technological advances could and should save us. We just have to be open to them.

It's the likes of Greta that is. She refused to fly to North America. She doesn't eat anything but grains.

I'll give her credit, she walks the walk, but it's a lot easier to be that idealistic like then when you're 16.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2019, 02:19:53 pm
I think most of us are on the same page. But when "DO SOMETHING!" means eliminating the Airline and Meat Industries, people are like, naw, I'll pass on that.

Don't fret, I doubt air travel will be taken away from you anytime soon but aircraft manufacturers are putting a lot effort/money into developing much more fuel efficient engines and airframes. as far as the meat goes though, the consumption has gone through the roof these days and you can't get a more inefficient way of producing protein for humans. Biodiversity is being reduced as forests are mowed down to provide pasture land, and production actually creates global food shortages as half the soybeans in the world go to feed animals which will end up in western supermarkets. Not to mention that the burps and farts that come out of them produce more green house gases than all the cars in the world. Maybe we can design a more efficient cow. 


Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 02:34:00 pm
Then we're all on the same page. Something needs to be done and now, since (as you say) it will take many decades to fix.
We cannot have a sane policy on climate emissions as long as posturing know-nothings like saint greta are treated as if they have something useful to say. Emissions reductions are not under the control of governments. They depend on tech which does not really exist yet and no one knows if/when that tech will appear. The most governments can do is ensure there are no barriers to adoption. Any government that makes promises to reduce emissions by X by such as such a date is going to waste resources. It is this waste that I object to. Get rid of emission reduction targets and renewable mandates and I would be fine with a carbon tax.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 27, 2019, 02:37:00 pm
I'll give her credit, she walks the walk, but it's a lot easier to be that idealistic like then when you're 16.
Of course getting her her here required a crew of people who flew back across the Atlantic after sailing her here. This is a perfect example of how pretentious know-nothings waste resources because they can't think logically and consider the big picture.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 27, 2019, 03:33:59 pm
We cannot have a sane policy on climate emissions as long as posturing know-nothings like saint greta are treated as if they have something useful to say. Emissions reductions are not under the control of governments. They depend on tech which does not really exist yet and no one knows if/when that tech will appear. The most governments can do is ensure there are no barriers to adoption. Any government that makes promises to reduce emissions by X by such as such a date is going to waste resources. It is this waste that I object to. Get rid of emission reduction targets and renewable mandates and I would be fine with a carbon tax.

So your plan seems to be to ignore the science, that way we don't need any plans to deal with it, and just throw our hands in the air and hope the issue goes away by itself. Why would you agree to pay a carbon tax within that scenario?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: ?Impact on September 27, 2019, 04:01:52 pm
However, the government has no business using tax dollars or regulations to promote Christianity, Islam, Climate Change Alarmism or any other religion simply because a subset of the population adheres to it.

You are right the governments have wasted billions promoting artificial economic models that hurt the majority. The religion of debt based expansionism works great for a very minor subset of the population, eg. the 3 individuals in the US that own as much as the bottom 50%. Nobody, I repeat nobody, no matter how hard they work or how blue their blood is deserves 50 million times what someone else does. The economic religion is the garbage that needs to be thrown out, and any politician that promotes it needs to be convicted of treason against the people.


b.t.w.   Welcome back Tim.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: ?Impact on September 27, 2019, 04:07:17 pm
There's a new Documentary on Netflix about Bill Gates and how, in his post Microsoft life, he likes to try and solve the world's problems.

Apparently 5 years ago he was able to build a very safe nuclear reactor that runs on spent uranium that already exists.

Yes, I have one of those in my basement, along with my cold fusion reactor, and several perpetual motion machines.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on September 28, 2019, 12:48:03 am
Of course getting her her here required a crew of people who flew back across the Atlantic after sailing her here. This is a perfect example of how pretentious know-nothings waste resources because they can't think logically and consider the big picture.

You know for a fact they just flew back?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 28, 2019, 07:41:54 am
You know for a fact they just flew back?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/28/greta-thunberg-arrival-in-new-york-delayed-by-rough-seas

Quote
Her voyage sparked controversy, however, after a spokesman for Herrmann, the yacht’s co-skipper, told the Berlin newspaper TAZ that several people would fly into New York to take the yacht back to Europe.

Herrmann will also return by plane, according to the spokesman.
As with everything related to greta it is nothing but hypocritical posturing. Someone who actually cared about CO2 emissions and capable of rational thinking would have understood that one round trip flight for greta would have used  fewer emissions.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: TimG on September 28, 2019, 07:48:41 am
You are right the governments have wasted billions promoting artificial economic models that hurt the majority.
Except there is no evidence to support this assertion. Societies with a rules based economic system that allow the accumulation of private wealth provide better for all people in society. Even if you you want to cherry pick a few statistics they are not going to change the fact that the "economic model" we have today is a result of centuries of trial error to determine the best compromise. Nor is anyone arguing that the model does not have to continue to be tweaked as time goes on which makes it very different from pure religion of climate alarmists that insist that policies which can't work must be adopted to save us from problems that we can't measure or predict with any meaningful certainty.

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: eyeball on September 28, 2019, 01:13:14 pm
She's making, not getting her way on Climate change, into an international temper tantrum.
If that temper turns into real anger and even rage and it inspires activists to take action agaisnt people who oppose action against climate change then Thunberg wil have accomplished something.

AFAIC deniers need to be shut down completely. They're the real threat.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: bcsapper on September 28, 2019, 02:03:20 pm
If that temper turns into real anger and even rage and it inspires activists to take action agaisnt people who oppose action against climate change then Thunberg wil have accomplished something.

AFAIC deniers need to be shut down completely. They're the real threat.

What kind of action?  Extinction Rebellion had a plan to shut down Heathrow using drones.  Is that the kind of thing you think will help?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: ?Impact on September 28, 2019, 02:24:59 pm
the "economic model" we have today is a result of centuries of trial error to determine the best compromise.

The model that failed drastically in 1929, and the one those with money have been lobbying for and slowly returning to for the past 50 years.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2019, 02:34:06 pm
Except there is no evidence to support this assertion. Societies with a rules based economic system that allow the accumulation of private wealth provide better for all people in society. Even if you you want to cherry pick a few statistics they are not going to change the fact that the "economic model" we have today is a result of centuries of trial error to determine the best compromise. Nor is anyone arguing that the model does not have to continue to be tweaked as time goes on which makes it very different from pure religion of climate alarmists that insist that policies which can't work must be adopted to save us from problems that we can't measure or predict with any meaningful certainty.

Here is one of those statistics which should show you that the accumulation of private wealth does NOT provide better for all people when in the US the top 1% own 40% of the nations wealth while the bottom 80% own 7%, and the income gap between the top 10% and the middle class is over 1000%.
Those are 2014 stats and the gaps continue to widen.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 28, 2019, 06:22:10 pm
You should maybe STFU and pay attention to the ~97% of professionally educated climate scientists who agree global warming is a real issue, supported by actual data.

1.  I do agree with the mainstream view that AGW is a real issue, i never denied that, so not sure why you're even bringing that up.  My point was that I don't really care that much what a teenager activist has to say on the subject since she has no expertise and probably hasn't even looked at much of the actual science in academic journals etc.  She isn't saying anything that isn't reported everyday in the media.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: eyeball on September 28, 2019, 07:02:27 pm
What kind of action?  Extinction Rebellion had a plan to shut down Heathrow using drones.  Is that the kind of thing you think will help?
Probably too little too late - a mere stunt. I was fantasizing more along the lines of so-called 'fire sale' hacker attacks against entire countries dedicating themselves to turning up the heat and 9/11 scale strikes against CO2 producing infrastructure. We're going over a cliff anyway so why not go out with a bang?

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2019, 08:01:46 pm
1.  I do agree with the mainstream view that AGW is a real issue, i never denied that, so not sure why you're even bringing that up.  My point was that I don't really care that much what a teenager activist has to say on the subject since she has no expertise and probably hasn't even looked at much of the actual science in academic journals etc.  She isn't saying anything that isn't reported everyday in the media.

The real point is not so much that she may not have read all the academic journals you speak of (have you)? but rather that she, and a few million others like her from ~185 countries around the world who will be inheriting the planet before too long, we want some serious action instead of just what we hear in the media everyday.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: bcsapper on September 28, 2019, 08:55:34 pm
Probably too little too late - a mere stunt. I was fantasizing more along the lines of so-called 'fire sale' hacker attacks against entire countries dedicating themselves to turning up the heat and 9/11 scale strikes against CO2 producing infrastructure. We're going over a cliff anyway so why not go out with a bang?

I'm not familiar with 'fire sale' hacker attacks but if  they end up reducing the population they can only help.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 28, 2019, 10:56:54 pm
The real point is not so much that she may not have read all the academic journals you speak of (have you)? but rather that she, and a few million others like her from ~185 countries around the world who will be inheriting the planet before too long, we want some serious action instead of just what we hear in the media everyday.

I am not a climate expert, neither are you nor Greta nor most people.  Nobody should care much at all what I have to say about AGW, same with Greta, that's my point.  But she's entitled to her opinion of course, as we all are.

A lot of people want action on climate change, including myself.  These young people have a right to protest.  Young people also tend to be idealistic.  It's great to care about the environment, but when they don't fully understand the economics of it you get crazy & naive proposals like the Green New Deal.  That's why you need to leave these things to the experts, not the activists.

Of course, most environmental activist are younger.  That's why Elizabeth May wants to lower the voting age to 16 federally as a campaign promise, so she and her party can get more votes and more political power.  But like Greta, most 16 year old don't know what they're talking about, and the typical 16 y/o today is more immature with less responsibility than at any other point in human history.  Most 16 y/o will only regurgitate what their parents, teachers, friends, and pop culture media tell them, and have yet to learn to think for themselves.  When I was 16 when i picked up the newspaper I only read the Sports and comic-strip sections mostly.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 28, 2019, 11:12:01 pm
I am not a climate expert, neither are you nor Greta nor most people.  Nobody should care much at all what I have to say about AGW, same with Greta, that's my point.  But she's entitled to her opinion of course, as we all are.

A lot of people want action on climate change, including myself.  These young people have a right to protest.  Young people also tend to be idealistic.  It's great to care about the environment, but when they don't fully understand the economics of it you get crazy & naive proposals like the Green New Deal.  That's why you need to leave these things to the experts, not the activists.

Of course, most environmental activist are younger.  That's why Elizabeth May wants to lower the voting age to 16 federally as a campaign promise, so she and her party can get more votes and more political power.  But like Greta, most 16 year old don't know what they're talking about, and the typical 16 y/o today is more immature with less responsibility than at any other point in human history.  Most 16 y/o will only regurgitate what their parents, teachers, friends, and pop culture media tell them, and have yet to learn to think for themselves.  When I was 16 when i picked up the newspaper I only read the Sports and comic-strip sections mostly.

We've all seen/heard how Trump "leaves things to the experts" on this issue as you suggest, he says they are all (97% of the worlds experts) are basically full of shyte and he knows better. So what I hear you saying is Trump is not more mature than a ~16 year old. I would agree.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on September 29, 2019, 02:15:04 pm
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I am not a climate expert, neither are you nor Greta nor most people.  Nobody should care much at all what I have to say about AGW, same with Greta, that's my point.  But she's entitled to her opinion of course, as we all are.

A lot of people want action on climate change, including myself.  These young people have a right to protest.  Young people also tend to be idealistic.  It's great to care about the environment, but when they don't fully understand the economics of it you get crazy & naive proposals like the Green New Deal.  That's why you need to leave these things to the experts, not the activists.

Of course, most environmental activist are younger.  That's why Elizabeth May wants to lower the voting age to 16 federally as a campaign promise, so she and her party can get more votes and more political power.  But like Greta, most 16 year old don't know what they're talking about, and the typical 16 y/o today is more immature with less responsibility than at any other point in human history.  Most 16 y/o will only regurgitate what their parents, teachers, friends, and pop culture media tell them, and have yet to learn to think for themselves.  When I was 16 when i picked up the newspaper I only read the Sports and comic-strip sections mostly.

Greta Thunberg has created a worldwide student strike, a movement of youth. That's her brilliance, persistence and determination, and it's very welcome.

And obviously she's frightened the right wing fossils, who are unleashing their trolls to try to hurt and dissuade her. Oh well. Lol

Anyone who really does understand "the economics" would understand that addressing climate change necessarily means changing the economic system: Our economic system that requires constant growth simply is a failure that cannot be sustained.

Youth have shown that they have an understanding of how their futures will be compromised by maintaining current systems, and they are, in their millions, letting us know it isn't good enough.

I think they should be able to have their voices heard through voting too.

We have a particularly unresponsive local government, and few (only the newbies) turned out for the climate strike. The youth wouldn't tolerate that. They marched right into City Hall and pounded on meeting room doors until they rousted the Mayor and Councillors.  Lol

I love these kids. They're smart and they tolerate no nonsense. If anybody can hammer this thing into shape, they can.

Greta is inspirational. That's her brilliance.

Angry and rich old white men got us where we are.
The earth and survival are in danger.
Women and children are going to lead now.
So step aside.   Lol

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: bcsapper on September 29, 2019, 05:38:31 pm
Women and children are going to lead now.
So step aside.   Lol

So the times they are a changing, eh?  Well, that's a relief.  I was starting to get worried.

I was wondering though, do you think you could look after the whole plastics thing while you're fixing climate change?  Or after you've finished, if you're pushed for time.

Because that would be really nice.  It's quite a concern.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on September 29, 2019, 07:17:12 pm
We've all seen/heard how Trump "leaves things to the experts" on this issue as you suggest, he says they are all (97% of the worlds experts) are basically full of shyte and he knows better. So what I hear you saying is Trump is not more mature than a ~16 year old. I would agree.

If Trump doesn't believe in AGW then he's willfully ignorant of the science.  But again, neither Trump nor Greta have enough expertise to make substantive claims about climate change. That Trump doesn't listen to the broad climate science community he's a fool.

I guess Greta is more a symbol of a movement more than anything.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on September 29, 2019, 08:26:12 pm
If Trump doesn't believe in AGW then he's willfully ignorant of the science.  But again, neither Trump nor Greta have enough expertise to make substantive claims about climate change. That Trump doesn't listen to the broad climate science community he's a fool.

I guess Greta is more a symbol of a movement more than anything.

Trump has expressed a number of times he doesn't believe in climate change. And as you say, it could be due to willful ignorance. Or it could be just plain ignorance. At least Greta is trying to work toward getting people to look into it.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 29, 2019, 08:30:45 pm
Here's something: a moderate approach, such as a Carbon Tax or cap-and-trade may actually work.  And it's not much to do.

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: the_squid on September 29, 2019, 09:47:29 pm
Here's something: a moderate approach, such as a Carbon Tax or cap-and-trade may actually work.  And it's not much to do.

Why do you want to destroy Canada?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on September 30, 2019, 08:45:45 am
Why do you want to destroy Canada?

I am bored.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on October 05, 2019, 08:00:27 pm
Here's something: a moderate approach, such as a Carbon Tax or cap-and-trade may actually work.  And it's not much to do.

How about a cost-neutral approach as well:
We shift 30% of government subsidies from fossil fuels to renewables.

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Boges on December 13, 2019, 09:57:09 am
Time's Person of the Year? FOH!

Hey she's this revolutionary voice on Climate change, but if you criticize her, she's just a poor innocent kid and you're a meanie.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on December 13, 2019, 11:51:28 am
How about a cost-neutral approach as well:
We shift 30% of government subsidies from fossil fuels to renewables.

There will be a cost.   There are 200K workers in coal,do you think they will all find equivalent jobs in their towns after coal is gone ?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on December 13, 2019, 11:58:30 am
Time's Person of the Year? FOH!

Hey she's this revolutionary voice on Climate change, but if you criticize her, she's just a poor innocent kid and you're a meanie.

I'd say Trump turned out to fulfill both roles as, just a kid, and a meanie, with his reaction to her beating him out for the Time cover.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on January 12, 2020, 03:17:52 pm
There will be a cost.   There are 200K workers in coal,do you think they will all find equivalent jobs in their towns after coal is gone ?

No I don't think so.
But the renewables industry will be ramping up so there will be opportunities there. Their towns can make some efforts to get in on the massive rollout of renewable energy that will create lots of jobs.
The subsidies can help if used for retraining.
Towns that are not trying to attract renewable energy projects and related retraining have their heads buried in the coal sludge.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on January 12, 2020, 06:17:14 pm
Unless the approach to those things changeswe will have dead towns again.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2020, 09:16:15 pm
Has anyone considered the possibility we are lemmings headed for a cliff? The world's population has tripled in the last 70 years and that was made possible by fossil fuels. Even where electricity comes almost totally from renewable sources it only supplies around 20% of total energy use.  Maybe our present civilization isn't sustainable without fossil fuels. Maybe mankind has headed up a blind alley and will have to go a fair distance backwards before it can head off in another direction.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on January 12, 2020, 09:25:27 pm
Has anyone considered the possibility we are lemmings headed for a cliff? The world's population has tripled in the last 70 years and that was made possible by fossil fuels. Even where electricity comes almost totally from renewable sources it only supplies around 20% of total energy use.  Maybe our present civilization isn't sustainable without fossil fuels. Maybe mankind has headed up a blind ally and will have to go a fair distance backwards before it can head off in another direction.

Donald Trump loves coal and we all know he is a forward thinker, especially with regard to the air we breathe.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on January 12, 2020, 09:56:10 pm
Donald Trump loves coal and we all know he is a forward thinker, especially with regard to the air we breathe.

Forget Trump, that was a serious question.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Omni on January 13, 2020, 01:09:42 am
Forget Trump, that was a serious question.

I would say we are lemmings headed for a cliff if we ignore the damage done by burning fossils and ignore the science which we have started working toward to clean things up. Or you could continue to ignore what sucking coal smoke up your nose smells like. Apparently Trump doesn't mind. 
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on January 13, 2020, 06:33:47 am
I feel like this is the year when it all breaks down.

The economy is running on fumes.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on January 13, 2020, 08:42:19 am
I would say we are lemmings headed for a cliff if we ignore the damage done by burning fossils and ignore the science which we have started working toward to clean things up. Or you could continue to ignore what sucking coal smoke up your nose smells like. Apparently Trump doesn't mind.

I’m not ignoring anything or saying nothing needs to be done. It’s a serious question. Humanity is in uncharted territory.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on February 10, 2020, 09:53:20 pm
I’m not ignoring anything or saying nothing needs to be done. It’s a serious question. Humanity is in uncharted territory.

We always are.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: JBG on March 01, 2020, 10:28:47 am
I took her advice a bit too seriously. I threw away all my winter clothing and was shivering yesterday. I am annoyed.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on March 01, 2020, 11:48:32 am
We always are.

Yes and there is no basis for the assumption the earth can sustain 7.5 billion people without fossil fuels. It is more likely that it can't within the limits of today's technology. It's questionable that it can sustain them at all in the long term.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2020, 12:26:57 pm
I continue to feel bad for Greta.  People either trashing her or taking advantage of her.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: waldo on March 01, 2020, 12:41:38 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Ip8Dfho.png) --- dipshytes doing their best worst! (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/greta-thunberg-alberta-oil_ca_5e58175fc5b60102210e12ff)
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Gorgeous Graham on March 01, 2020, 12:46:52 pm
Here I'll correct the tweet:  "*Some men..."

Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 01, 2020, 06:57:21 pm
There will be a cost.   There are 200K workers in coal,do you think they will all find equivalent jobs in their towns after coal is gone ?

If they're working in that dirty environment anyway, they may as well cover it with solar panels and wind turbines.  ;  )
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 01, 2020, 07:03:35 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/Ip8Dfho.png) --- dipshytes doing their best worst! (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/greta-thunberg-alberta-oil_ca_5e58175fc5b60102210e12ff)

This is so disgusting.

"Someone" is X-Site Energy Services.
Their website seems to be down.
I TRULY TRULY hope this puts them TOTALLY out of business.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on March 01, 2020, 09:29:09 pm
If they're working in that dirty environment anyway, they may as well cover it with solar panels and wind turbines.  ;  )

Who is they?
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 01, 2020, 10:03:14 pm
Who is they?

You can read.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: the_squid on March 02, 2020, 02:31:01 am
Redneck oil workers’ message to women:  Agree with your man, or you deserve to be raped. 

What a lovely sentiment.  Apparently, the president of this company admitted to the woman who first complained about the sticker that they were distributing them.  Later, to the press, he denied everything. 
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on March 02, 2020, 09:09:10 am
You can read.

Everything is they. Like unemployed workers are going to have the money to be “they”.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 02, 2020, 04:52:59 pm
Redneck oil workers’ message to women:  Agree with your man, or you deserve to be raped. 

What a lovely sentiment.  Apparently, the president of this company admitted to the woman who first complained about the sticker that they were distributing them.  Later, to the press, he denied everything.

Website is down, messages are full, "We're swamped, folks! F*ck oil! We're makin' decals now! Decals are back-ordered till 2050!"   ???

Alberta needed a new industry.  : - \

/satire
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 03, 2020, 07:49:10 am
X-site Energy Services: Apology, humility, and "organizational changes"

I'm betting the manager named Sparrow has been moved or removed.

http://www.x-site-energy.com/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/greta-thunberg-graphic-image-x-site-energy-alberta-1.5482369
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on March 03, 2020, 10:22:04 am
X-site Energy Services: Apology, humility, and "organizational changes"

I'm betting the manager named Sparrow has been moved or removed.

http://www.x-site-energy.com/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/greta-thunberg-graphic-image-x-site-energy-alberta-1.5482369

Use your company to promote disgusting attitudes ?

Cancelled.

By the boss...
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 03, 2020, 12:20:57 pm
Use your company to promote disgusting attitudes ?

Cancelled.

By the boss...

It does seem they're telling less than the truth, though:

These have nothing to do with our company, ...

And yet ...

X-Site said it is discussing a code of conduct with its employees and that it will hold sessions on respect in the workplace with all staff.

"We have let our employees, our families and our customers down with this careless action. But just as we are committed to help reduce our industry's environmental footprint, we are committed to learn from and correct our mistake," it said.

"We will do better."


Perhaps employing Sparrow was their 'mistake', and/or allowing a vile workplace culture to exist?

In either case, it certainly does appear that this does have quite a lot to do with their company.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on March 03, 2020, 02:48:52 pm
Well, ultimately they are responsible but they can claim that the person did this of their own volition.

I think that response is normal - and they have attempted to remedy this.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 03, 2020, 03:50:12 pm
Well, ultimately they are responsible but they can claim that the person did this of their own volition.

I think that response is normal - and they have attempted to remedy this.

Yes, I'm glad they are too.
And maybe it's a learning experience for other companies too.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on March 03, 2020, 09:40:31 pm
Yes, I'm glad they are too.
And maybe it's a learning experience for other companies too.

To be honest, I think they are the ones who learned from other companies who did bad deeds in the past... Somebody realized their livlihoods were at stake over a prank.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: JBG on March 04, 2020, 08:45:03 am
But back to Greta. Is this type of sensationalism helpful? Does she not recognize that the technological advances she's railing against allowed her to be born into such privilege that she can fear the Climate Crisis to the level she does? That her niche compromises to environmentalism are rather extreme and unrealistic for vast swaths of the world?

Some find her inspirational, I find her shrill and condescending. And condescending from an unearned spot.

Young people can be idealistic, because they've never actually faced the realities on an adult life.
I agree. Basically chalk on a blackboard.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 04, 2020, 10:03:50 am
To be honest, I think they are the ones who learned from other companies who did bad deeds in the past... Somebody realized their livlihoods were at stake over a prank.

Wow. I can't quite believe I have to say this to the usually respectful MH, but ...

Only a man would dismiss representation of **** as "a prank".
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on March 04, 2020, 11:32:41 am
Yes, basically intended as a prank, an unbelievably stupid prank. What on earth did they think would happen? You have to feel a bit for any employees who didn't have any part of this.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: MH on March 04, 2020, 11:55:42 am
Wow. I can't quite believe I have to say this to the usually respectful MH, but ...

Only a man would dismiss representation of **** as "a prank".

Yes, you are correct.  I did not mean to dismiss or lower the bar for behaviour - just to frame this as absolute stupidity for any business to do anything but terminate those responsible, and remediate.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: Granny on March 04, 2020, 02:26:08 pm
Yes, basically intended as a prank, an unbelievably stupid prank. What on earth did they think would happen? You have to feel a bit for any employees who didn't have any part of this.

I feel respect for any who refused to take a sticker when the company was handing them out ... with their company logo on them too, don't forget. Were there any men who refused?

The first person who called the company on it was a supporter of the oil industry... but a woman, who understands the sources of male violence against women.

I hope the company goes down.
The male responses from Alberta, and here, are disgusting to me. What I would have expected on mlw, not here.

Do none of you have a daughter, sister, mother who is, or once was or will be a 17 year old?

Greta Thunberg has correctly identified this attack (not a "prank") on her as a sign of desperation in the oil industry, in its dying days.

Desperation breeds violence in men, supported sympathetically by other men, women always the first victims.

Just another signal that the sooner the male chauvinist dominated oil industry dies, the better, imo.
.
Title: Re: Greta Thunberg: Inspirational or Annoying?
Post by: wilber on March 04, 2020, 06:26:30 pm
There is no excuse for this but it is like something that was dreamed up by drunk adolescents. Normally it would have died when they sobered up and realized how ridiculous it was. I guess these guys or guy took themselves seriously which is the most disturbing part. I would like to know more about who knew and did what before I wished a whole bunch of people out of work.