Canadian Politics Today

Beyond Politics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Super Colin Blow on August 26, 2019, 12:08:29 am

Title: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 26, 2019, 12:08:29 am
Not an exciting topic, but it's one I've often wondered about:

"real" money (coins and notes) are about 2% of the entire money supply in the United States. The rest of it is on the books in banks and other financial institutions, stored electronically. I am assuming it's the same in other developed countries; and for good reason. This of course speeds up commerce, and makes it a little easier on merchants who cannot store as much physical money. It's safer to carry a debit card that transfers a bunch of electrons from your bank's account to the merchant's account directly, at point of sale, than it is to carry around a $h*tload of hundred dollar bills when you want to go shopping. You can also Zelle or Pop money to other people right from your cell phones rather than handing someone a $20 bill when you lose a bet.

It makes me wonder, by when will physical money be dead? Is there still a use for it? Someone from Sweden told me his country is considering a referendum on killing paper/coin money and going 100% digital.

(Pity if so, because I collect it. I've got a whole dictator's hall of fame in my paper money collection. Better snap up some kroner before it's been demonitised.)

This of course doesn't take into account cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. Still, one wonders exactly what the future of money will be.

I assume it's the same in Canada, people use debit cards more than they use bills and coins with H.M. pretty face on it. Is Canada in danger of going 100% digital?

If so, why do they keep updating money with better (and probably more expensive) security features, changing from paper/cotton to polymer notes? The UK just introduced a new pound coin because the old one was getting counterfeited quite a bit. One wonders why they would do it if they intend to go all-out digital any time this century.

IMO, paper banknotes and coins are still pretty useful. But whether you hand someone a $5 bill, or digitally transfer it to them, it's still all fiat money.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 26, 2019, 05:29:37 am
See my thread about MMT.

The digitization of money is inevitable, and part of the evolution of it disappearing altogether.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 26, 2019, 07:36:07 am
See my thread about MMT.

The digitization of money is inevitable, and part of the evolution of it disappearing altogether.

Oh well. Better start snapping up foreign banknotes whilst it still exists! bad news for drug dealers, and old people. And just as the U.S. was making more interesting money, and promising to put Harriet Tubman on the $20 to replace Pres. Andrew Jackson.

I find it odd, though. The UK still has no fewer than eight coins in its monetary arsenal (1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, £1 and £2). Odd for a western country where the money might be replaced eventually! Egypt has only paper, I think. Lots of countries have replaced cotton with polymer as I said. Again, odd for countries where you'd think digital would replace "real money" entirely, assuming developed nations will be the first ones to do it.

As an interesting aside, you know the expression "Queer as a $3 bill"? Bahamas actually makes one, and I have it. I actually have "LSD money" (United Kingdom pre-decimal, a whole set.)
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 26, 2019, 07:46:41 am
Why old people?
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 26, 2019, 07:52:32 am
Why old people?

Down here I have noticed that they are more resistant to technology and whatnot. Many dislike using computers or don't know how, so that nixes checking their account balance all the time like the rest of us. They avoid the self-checkout lines at the grocery stores and even write checks instead of using a debit card.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 26, 2019, 09:05:52 am
Ok, well it's not the hardest thing to use a debit card.

And with MMT they will likely see more $.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: wilber on August 26, 2019, 02:32:54 pm
The US is kind of backward, just getting into chip and pin, tap unavailable in most places and many people still use cheques in grocery stores.

I wouldn't jump into buying a bunch of cash before it is demonitised but if you like the idea, I have some Guilders, Deutschmarks and French Francs I can sell you cheap.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Queefer Sutherland on August 26, 2019, 02:51:10 pm
Physical money isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 27, 2019, 03:16:56 am
Physical money isn't going anywhere.

Too useful for drug dealers and other nefarious users. Probably why the EU canned the 500 and 200 Euro notes.

According to a friend of mine, they used to call the 500 Euro note "the bin laden" (while he was still alive) because nobody's seen it but everybody knows it exists.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 27, 2019, 03:22:38 am
The US is kind of backward, just getting into chip and pin, tap unavailable in most places and many people still use cheques in grocery stores.

I wouldn't jump into buying a bunch of cash before it is demonitised but if you like the idea, I have some Guilders, Deutschmarks and French Francs I can sell you cheap.

My bank has had the chip for at least a few years now. The people who use checks are, as I said, old people who are so set in their ways that they keep writing them. However, I understand they will phase out checks entirely within the next few years, since there are other ways to instantly send money these days (Zelle, popmoney, etc.)

What sort of French francs do you have? I've been to Europe three times: Portugal (1993) Italy (1994) and France/Belgium/Netherlands (1998). I saved three 5-guilder notes, one of which is from the 60s; but spent all my escudos, lira and French & Belgian francs. Very bummed about that. I have plenty of coins left because banks won't trade them back.

Shitty thing about using your debit card abroad is the 3% currency translation fee. Every time I went to Europe before, I had traveller's cheques by American Express. Safer than carrying around money, probably safer than carrying around a debit card. But progress has its price...
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 27, 2019, 07:13:17 am
Physical money isn't going anywhere.

Bullshit.  At least give a timeframe...
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Squidward von Squidderson on August 27, 2019, 11:28:11 am
Bullshit.  At least give a timeframe...

A timeframe for not going anywhere?   Why would he need to do that?  If you’re saying paper money is dead, it’s you who should be providing a timeframe.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Omni on August 27, 2019, 11:40:15 am
A timeframe for not going anywhere?   Why would he need to do that?  If you’re saying paper money is dead, it’s you who should be providing a timeframe.

I'll happily take care of any/all money anyone has that they feel is dead.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: wilber on August 27, 2019, 12:28:02 pm
My bank has had the chip for at least a few years now. The people who use checks are, as I said, old people who are so set in their ways that they keep writing them. However, I understand they will phase out checks entirely within the next few years, since there are other ways to instantly send money these days (Zelle, popmoney, etc.)

What sort of French francs do you have? I've been to Europe three times: Portugal (1993) Italy (1994) and France/Belgium/Netherlands (1998). I saved three 5-guilder notes, one of which is from the 60s; but spent all my escudos, lira and French & Belgian francs. Very bummed about that. I have plenty of coins left because banks won't trade them back.

Shitty thing about using your debit card abroad is the 3% currency translation fee. Every time I went to Europe before, I had traveller's cheques by American Express. Safer than carrying around money, probably safer than carrying around a debit card. But progress has its price...

I remember first using chip and pin in Canada in late 2006.  Europe was using it several years before that. Seeing a cheque written in a store is a rare event in Canada, even by old people.
The currency is in a box somewhere but it would have been accumulated in the eighties and early nineties.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 27, 2019, 01:29:14 pm
A timeframe for not going anywhere?   Why would he need to do that?  If you’re saying paper money is dead, it’s you who should be providing a timeframe.

Wow, that's a brain flipper.

Let's see.... Well ...

I dunno.  I'm saying paper money will die and he says it won't.  I think you're right: it's up to me to give the timeframe.  I will say it dies in the next 50 years.

But he said it will NEVER die... Effectively.  I think it's bullshit to say never
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 27, 2019, 08:49:10 pm
Wow, that's a brain flipper.

Let's see.... Well ...

I dunno.  I'm saying paper money will die and he says it won't.  I think you're right: it's up to me to give the timeframe.  I will say it dies in the next 50 years.

But he said it will NEVER die... Effectively.  I think it's bullshit to say never

Well never say never. I wonder if debit cards will disappear. All they really are is proof you are who you are. In the future, maybe we will put our eyeball into some thing that IDs us by a retinal scan, thus authorizing the transaction.
In the Netherlands, banks charge merchants for using/depositing paper money. So if you try to use cash at point of sale there's a fee for the customer.

Still, we're looking at this through a very western-centric prism. There are countries where people don't carry around debit cards (or retinal scanners, lol) and are more "backwards" as far as their monetary transaction technology. It would screw them over to eliminate the greenback (or the Queenback, and other western currencies). In Japan, few people use debit or credit cards outside of the city; and checks are practically unheard of. (I read this in a recently-updated Japanese language textbook.)

I have to say though, it might be better for the blind and visually impaired to get rid of paper money and coins. Many countries either don't have different sized notes for the blind, or constantly change their size (again confounding the visually-impaired). Using my hypothetical retinal scanner, or a more advanced type of debit card, the price can be repeated by computer voice at point of sale. No scamming them any more ("Sorry ma'am, you gave me a five, not a fifty..." etc.)

The down side to eliminating real money is that transactions will no longer be private. Governments and banks can see exactly what you are doing all the time, which means handing over to them the power over our own private wealth. And of course, banks will find a way to work this to their advantage (profit).
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2019, 03:28:23 pm
Canadian banknotes can be read in braille. The little dots are pressed into the notes.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: ?Impact on August 28, 2019, 04:40:01 pm
Well never say never. I wonder if debit cards will disappear. All they really are is proof you are who you are.

Three factor authentication: something you have, something you know, and something you are (token, password, bio-metric).

When looking to build secure systems (and our current economic model demands a secure system), we should look at having three factor authentication. Most systems are weaker than that today, but our goal should not be to decrease security.

What should be mentioned in this thread is the protection credit cards give, at least in Canada, with respect to a maximum amount for fraudulent charges (if reported within a number of days of billing). Debit, cheque, inter-bank transfer, and others do not offer that level of protection.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: wilber on August 28, 2019, 06:54:19 pm
Just going through some old money and found 95 Pounds in 20's 10's and 5's. Had them since 06. Went on line and found out they went out of circulation in 2010 and 2017 and I would have to exchange them  in person at the Bank of England. Maybe we should get rid of paper money, that's $155 CAD. Swines.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Omni on August 28, 2019, 08:43:13 pm
I have a stack of Kwanza notes leftover from trips through Angola. They are crispy and are 100,000 notes. That's a lot of zero's. I seem to recall one would buy you a can of beer.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 29, 2019, 02:25:54 am
I've often wondered why the U.S. hasn't changed its money as often as other countries. That sux about your obsolete sterling, though. I'd be pissed.

You should try selling some of them on eBay. Sounds like your only option at this point.

I wonder if the people who celebrate Kwanza in the U.S. are aware it's actually a currency....
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 29, 2019, 05:34:03 am
Canadian banknotes can be read in braille. The little dots are pressed into the notes.

You can HEAR online money.   8)
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 29, 2019, 05:40:21 pm
You can HEAR online money.   8)

How's that exactly?
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 29, 2019, 06:58:50 pm
How's that exactly?

Turn on your screen reader ?  Then open your bank account page.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 30, 2019, 03:40:51 am
Turn on your screen reader ?  Then open your bank account page.

OK fair enough. I guess you can't hear real money as you said; then again, if you do, you should see a psychiatrist.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Michael Hardner on August 30, 2019, 05:58:31 am
OK fair enough. I guess you can't hear real money as you said; then again, if you do, you should see a psychiatrist.

WHAT ?  WHO SAID THAT ?  HELLO ?
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 30, 2019, 09:00:03 am
WHAT ?  WHO SAID THAT ?  HELLO ?

Tell Alexander Hamilton to shut his mouth.  8)
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on August 31, 2019, 03:46:29 pm
I have a stack of Kwanza notes leftover from trips through Angola. They are crispy and are 100,000 notes. That's a lot of zero's. I seem to recall one would buy you a can of beer.

I didn't realize their inflation problem was that serious. I have a note from post-Communist Yugoslavia/Serbia that is 500,000,000,000 dinara. Zimbabwe notes are very collectible for their immense face values. Iran is now devaluing or whatever the riyal (dividing it by 1,000 to keep from having to deal with immense numbers).

I wonder if nixing real money would increase inflation? Or maybe not, like I said it's only 2% of the money supply.

No more ATMs, bank tellers, etc. There'd still be banks of course, they just wouldn't run the same way.

I wonder if it would lead to a world currency?
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on September 11, 2019, 12:55:23 pm
Canadian banknotes can be read in braille. The little dots are pressed into the notes.

Wish I had those Canadian $1,000 bills. I think they've been demonitised, but have a high collector's value.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: ?Impact on September 11, 2019, 01:02:35 pm
Wish I had those Canadian $1,000 bills. I think they've been demonitised, but have a high collector's value.

Yes, they were concerned about money laundering and dropped them about 15-20 years ago. I really want a $25 or $500 bill though.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Omni on September 11, 2019, 01:07:39 pm
Yes, they were concerned about money laundering and dropped them about 15-20 years ago. I really want a $25 or $500 bill though.

I can send you a 100,000 Kwanza note if you like. Not worth much but all those 0's make them seem otherwise.
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: ?Impact on September 11, 2019, 01:29:37 pm
I can send you a 100,000 Kwanza note if you like. Not worth much but all those 0's make them seem otherwise.

I think I have a few old lira in a box somewhere, but really I prefer Canadian money.

ref: https://www.bankofcanadamuseum.ca/complete-bank-note-series/1935-first-series/first-series-25-dollars/
Title: Re: Real Money
Post by: Super Colin Blow on September 12, 2019, 09:00:43 pm
I can send you a 100,000 Kwanza note if you like. Not worth much but all those 0's make them seem otherwise.

Nice! I'd like that.