Canadian Political Events

Beyond Canada => The World => Topic started by: Rue on July 23, 2019, 12:51:59 pm

Title: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: Rue on July 23, 2019, 12:51:59 pm
As Granny initiated a thread which claims to be about one thing and now has turned into a general thread to express anything anti Israel I will use this thread to respond to her
accusations or allegations as she has already tried to censor me on her threads before this forum now gives her the right to do so.

In her latest diatribe she has presented an incident of a boy shot in the head.She has taken a story of a 9 year old boy shot in the head to state that an IDF sniper deliberately shot the boy in the head. She has no proof. She relies on a news article she read on the internet. The incident happened on July 12 at about 2.20 pm. It would appear from the news articles that for eight years,  Palestinians of the  West Bank village of Kafr Qaddum have protested each Friday against what they feel are Israeli land confiscations and the closure of the village’s southern road by IDF.


Some of the articles quote an individual by the name of Murad Shteiwi who claims to be the leader of the "popular resistance committee".This individual after the shooting happened was present to provide all kinds of comments to the media including this statement: “Our protests are always non-violent. We are armed only with signs and flags,”

To start with anyone who has lived or been to the West Bank would know the above statement is a red flag. Very rarely does any demonstration not contain stone and rock throwing by young children and teens incited by people such as Mr. Shteiwi who then are suddenly present after the IDF responds to children throwing rocks and stones or molatov cocktails. To understand the West Bank is to understand there is no such thing as a non violent demonstration and virtually every one uses young children so that the news can show children being "attacked" by the IDF. Interestingly when he was asked further about his statement he then said: “At most, sometimes the young men throw stones in response to the soldiers, but that’s it. Never more than that.” Well he suddenly remembered the stones and then stated "Never more than that."

For those of us who have lived and been on the West Bank its always more than that and that is the point. These incidents are used as public relations exercises to incite and propogate anti Israeli messages. In fact Mr. Shteiwi is a pathological liar and manipulator. What he is well aware of is the deliberate placement and use of children in his demonstrations and that the rocks and stones are accompanied by molotov cocktails and other projectiles and at times  nail bombs, sniper fire from terrorists in the crowds and to disperse these violent demonstrations the IDF then fires back tear gas, rubber bullets, and sound bombs or will use water canons.

The red flag for this individual lying comes from his next statement. Shteiwi was not at the accident scene when it happened but had this prepared statement: "He (the boy shot)  wasn’t even at the front of the clashes, there were tons of other young men in front of him. But they aimed at the child on purpose and shot him,” Shteiwi recounted."If in fact the boy as he said was behind and I quote "tons of other young men in front of him" why would the sniper know to carefully select out from these "tons" just this boy? n fact Shteiwi was not at the scene and so made this up and it makes no sense.

The boy shot was Abdul Rahman and was taken to Rafidia Surgical Hospital in Nablus, where  the article states their doctors reportedly found :an expanding live bullet that exploded into more than 100 fragments after it lodged in the boy's head. ". First off no doctor was directly quoted. Secondly how would they have known the bullet was "expanding live". They did not see it expand live. In fact they found fragments after the fact..not they did not stand there watching the bullet expand.. the fact that there were many fragments does not necessarily mean the bullet exploded live particularly if it was soft lead. Again the story being told makes no forensic sense as to how bullets react and appears to be show a glaring misunderstanding  as to what what the properties are of exploding, expanding, soft lead, plastic and hollow head bullets which all are  different and  could cause damage and splintering.

Here is where the story further falls apart. The doctors said nothing it was only in fact Shteiwi quoting them  when Shteiwi said: “The doctors told us that by the way he was shot, and the kind of bullet he was shot with, it is clear that the soldiers’ intention was to kill. Abdul Rahman was not supposed to live,”  The last statement makes no sense. If one knows anything about forensics they would know a doctor can not know or state definitively whether a bullet entering a skull was stray or deliberately aimed. They can only comment on the extent of organic matter in the brain injured, entry and exit points, number of fragments found. Further analysis as to trajectory would need to be conducted before it entered the body and then after it exited if it did.


Here is where the story becomes even more questionable. Other than the above spokesperson who was NOT at the scene of the accident, were statements from  the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), whose activists were present on Friday’s protest. This group whose members of course refused to identify themselves said also in a planned statement that its activists “found a 5.56 bullet case on the ground where protesters had been standing some 15 minutes before. Oh how convenient.They found a 5.56 bullet case. How convenient and hey now it was hot to the touch suggesting it had been fired as they said " that afternoon". How absurd. How if you believe the bullet casing was in fact hot could you know it was just fired let alone fired that same afternoon and then inferred to be the very same one that comes from the one in the boy's head when there is no evidence of what type of bullet it was let alone its size. Further say it was a 5.,56 bullet case how does that case prove it was a live as opposed to other kind of bullet? As well does anyone even stop to think why a 5.56 bullet case  and was the very same bullet casing from the bullet in the child's head?  How would they know that without matching up the casing to the fragments?  Making the story even more absurd was these same "activists" then reported and I quote, " Dozens more bullet cases were also found by villagers following the protest.” So how do they know which one let alone if the one they claim was hot was the casing from the one that lodged in the boy's head. What magic determined this? I mean who needs forensics to investigate when all we need is to mindlessly parrot what someone with a vested political agenda has to say....


The story is full of holes including the one in the boy's head. It sounds like a stray plastic bullet shot into the crowd to disperse it hit this unfortunate kid. There is zero proof of any intentional or deliberately aimed shot.


Here is an example of how false stories such as the above later are proven false:


https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5352827,00.html

So until there is proper evidence all Granny does is parrot unsubstantiated unproven allegations and exploit the injury/death of a child for her own political agenda.
Title: Re: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: Omni on July 23, 2019, 01:12:33 pm
As Granny initiated a thread which claims to be about one thing and now has turned into a general thread to express anything anti Israel I will use this thread to respond to her
accusations or allegations as she has already tried to censor me on her threads before this forum now gives her the right to do so.

In her latest diatribe she has presented an incident of a boy shot in the head.She has taken a story of a 9 year old boy shot in the head to state that an IDF sniper deliberately shot the boy in the head. She has no proof. She relies on a news article she read on the internet. The incident happened on July 12 at about 2.20 pm. It would appear from the news articles that for eight years,  Palestinians of the  West Bank village of Kafr Qaddum have protested each Friday against what they feel are Israeli land confiscations and the closure of the village’s southern road by IDF.


Some of the articles quote an individual by the name of Murad Shteiwi who claims to be the leader of the "popular resistance committee".This individual after the shooting happened was present to provide all kinds of comments to the media including this statement: “Our protests are always non-violent. We are armed only with signs and flags,”

To start with anyone who has lived or been to the West Bank would know the above statement is a red flag. Very rarely does any demonstration not contain stone and rock throwing by young children and teens incited by people such as Mr. Shteiwi who then are suddenly present after the IDF responds to children throwing rocks and stones or molatov cocktails. To understand the West Bank is to understand there is no such thing as a non violent demonstration and virtually every one uses young children so that the news can show children being "attacked" by the IDF. Interestingly when he was asked further about his statement he then said: “At most, sometimes the young men throw stones in response to the soldiers, but that’s it. Never more than that.” Well he suddenly remembered the stones and then stated "Never more than that."

For those of us who have lived and been on the West Bank its always more than that and that is the point. These incidents are used as public relations exercises to incite and propogate anti Israeli messages. In fact Mr. Shteiwi is a pathological liar and manipulator. What he is well aware of is the deliberate placement and use of children in his demonstrations and that the rocks and stones are accompanied by molotov cocktails and other projectiles and at times  nail bombs, sniper fire from terrorists in the crowds and to disperse these violent demonstrations the IDF then fires back tear gas, rubber bullets, and sound bombs or will use water canons.

The red flag for this individual lying comes from his next statement. Shteiwi was not at the accident scene when it happened but had this prepared statement: "He (the boy shot)  wasn’t even at the front of the clashes, there were tons of other young men in front of him. But they aimed at the child on purpose and shot him,” Shteiwi recounted."If in fact the boy as he said was behind and I quote "tons of other young men in front of him" why would the sniper know to carefully select out from these "tons" just this boy? n fact Shteiwi was not at the scene and so made this up and it makes no sense.

The boy shot was Abdul Rahman and was taken to Rafidia Surgical Hospital in Nablus, where  the article states their doctors reportedly found :an expanding live bullet that exploded into more than 100 fragments after it lodged in the boy's head. ". First off no doctor was directly quoted. Secondly how would they have known the bullet was "expanding live". They did not see it expand live. In fact they found fragments after the fact..not they did not stand there watching the bullet expand.. the fact that there were many fragments does not necessarily mean the bullet exploded live particularly if it was soft lead. Again the story being told makes no forensic sense as to how bullets react and appears to be show a glaring misunderstanding  as to what what the properties are of exploding, expanding, soft lead, plastic and hollow head bullets which all are  different and  could cause damage and splintering.

Here is where the story further falls apart. The doctors said nothing it was only in fact Shteiwi quoting them  when Shteiwi said: “The doctors told us that by the way he was shot, and the kind of bullet he was shot with, it is clear that the soldiers’ intention was to kill. Abdul Rahman was not supposed to live,”  The last statement makes no sense. If one knows anything about forensics they would know a doctor can not know or state definitively whether a bullet entering a skull was stray or deliberately aimed. They can only comment on the extent of organic matter in the brain injured, entry and exit points, number of fragments found. Further analysis as to trajectory would need to be conducted before it entered the body and then after it exited if it did.


Here is where the story becomes even more questionable. Other than the above spokesperson who was NOT at the scene of the accident, were statements from  the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), whose activists were present on Friday’s protest. This group whose members of course refused to identify themselves said also in a planned statement that its activists “found a 5.56 bullet case on the ground where protesters had been standing some 15 minutes before. Oh how convenient.They found a 5.56 bullet case. How convenient and hey now it was hot to the touch suggesting it had been fired as they said " that afternoon". How absurd. How if you believe the bullet casing was in fact hot could you know it was just fired let alone fired that same afternoon and then inferred to be the very same one that comes from the one in the boy's head when there is no evidence of what type of bullet it was let alone its size. Further say it was a 5.,56 bullet case how does that case prove it was a live as opposed to other kind of bullet? As well does anyone even stop to think why a 5.56 bullet case  and was the very same bullet casing from the bullet in the child's head?  How would they know that without matching up the casing to the fragments?  Making the story even more absurd was these same "activists" then reported and I quote, " Dozens more bullet cases were also found by villagers following the protest.” So how do they know which one let alone if the one they claim was hot was the casing from the one that lodged in the boy's head. What magic determined this? I mean who needs forensics to investigate when all we need is to mindlessly parrot what someone with a vested political agenda has to say....


The story is full of holes including the one in the boy's head. It sounds like a stray plastic bullet shot into the crowd to disperse it hit this unfortunate kid. There is zero proof of any intentional or deliberately aimed shot.


Here is an example of how false stories such as the above later are proven false:


https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5352827,00.html

So until there is proper evidence all Granny does is parrot unsubstantiated unproven allegations and exploit the injury/death of a child for her own political agenda.

I guess this IDF soldier/sniper was not such a good shot.

A nine-year-old Palestinian boy was shot in the head with live fire by an IDF soldier last week outside the West Bank village of Kafr Kaddum, according to B’Tselem – The Israel Information Centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, contradicting statements made by the IDF.

Residents of Kafr Kaddum clashed with IDF troops as they were holding demonstrations on July 12, protesting against the closure of the main access road. According to B’Tselem, protesters clashed around 200 meters from Abd a-Rahman a-Shteiwi, a boy who was “sitting at the entrance of one of the homes on the edge of the village, playing with a piece of wood.”

The protest dispersed. then an Israeli sniper shot a 9-year-old Palestinian boy in the head (Haaretz)
GIDEON LEVY: From 100 metres away, an IDF soldier shot a boy in the head in the West Bank village of Kafr Qaddum. The bullet exploded into dozens of fragments in the child’s brain and he’s now in an induced coma

Photo: Abd el-Rahman Shatawi
Print
https://plus61j.net.au/panel-picks/btselem-claims-idf-shot-palestinian-child-head-live-fire/
Title: Re: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: waldo on July 23, 2019, 01:34:35 pm
So until there is proper evidence all Granny does is parrot unsubstantiated unproven allegations and exploit the injury/death of a child for her own political agenda.

I'm sure you could have put your 'big boy pants on' to have responded in the appropriate original thread - no?

as you say, "until there is proper evidence of your claim that member 'Granny' tried to censor you"... you're simply plying your same-ole, same-ole victim play - sad!
Title: Re: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: ?Impact on July 23, 2019, 01:37:56 pm
The boy shot was Abdul Rahman and was taken to Rafidia Surgical Hospital in Nablus, where  the article states their doctors reportedly found :an expanding live bullet that exploded into more than 100 fragments after it lodged in the boy's head. ". First off no doctor was directly quoted.

Other accounts (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190715-over-100-bullet-fragments-in-brain-of-palestinian-child-shot-by-israel-soldier/) and here (https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/one-hundred-bullet-fragments-lodged-in-palestinian-child-shot-by-israeli-soldiers-1.885880) do quote Dr Othman Othman, Head of Neurosurgery at Rafidia hospital, Nablus “He had a penetrating injury in the frontal lobe on the right side. The injury was severe and there are more than 100 fragments. This is not a rubber bullet; this is a metal bullet. A rubber bullet will not enter because it does not have a sharp head. This is something that had a sharp head.

I can't find a web page for the hospital, or a staff directory. They do have a Facebook page, but it is not very helpful. There is a listing from the US state department that does list this hospital as having 165 beds and it does have a neurosurgery department among others.

Title: Re: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: Rue on July 26, 2019, 05:24:17 pm
In response to Impact:

Without proper mri  imaging and pictures of the wounds and  forensic evidence of trajectory it is impossible to conclude a shot was deliberate as opposed to accidental.

However here is an article if you take the time to read it provides the probable explanation  for certain injuries that are occuring when civilians are shot up close:

https://972mag.com/whats-causing-unusual-bullet-wounds-among-gaza-protesters/136137/

It states:

“The use of sniper rifles against closer targets increases accuracy and decreases the chances of wounding an unintended target, but it also leads to far more severe wounds due to the greater speed and force of the bullet. “

I think what is happening if you read the reports coming out of other shootings is that more and more children are closer to the line of immediate fire so when the bullets hit them they get those devastating tissue  injuries. Its not that the bullets are designed to fragment or expand its the fact that the impact is closer range and leads to that phenomena. The shells are not plastic or rubber coated or what some call dum dum bullets. There is another bullet a sponge head bullet the Israeli army uses that bruises but it can be lethal at close range.

The bottom line is most times Israel will use water canons, tear gas but if  a crowd attacks it is a fact and I have been there children are used and they get seriously injured, hurt and killed. N

I think it is most probable this child was hit in the head not deliberately but by a ricochet bullet or stray bullet. Its not something I want or defend in the sense of wanting children hurt. I also believe the IDF can and must find better ways for crowd control. It is a moral obligation.

The problem is using civilians and children as front line expendable media props to get wounded and hurt and to create stories designed to incite anger is the name of the game for the PA and Hamas and it will continue until we somehow get people to the table.

Until people sit and talk like human beings on both sides and stop exploiting the conflict using children and stories designed to incite anger, this will continue and simply blaming one side is bullshit.

Title: Re: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: Granny on July 26, 2019, 10:44:09 pm
Where's the part about the security cam video of the kid going in the store and walking to his friend's house?
He wasn't throwing any stones.
He wasn't being used as a shield.
A smear job, Rue?  Really?!

When the crowd dispersed, IDF shot him.

IDF are trained to see Palestinians as subhuman, disposable ... targets. 
Title: Re: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: Rue on July 27, 2019, 09:37:56 am
The fact remains as is seen in the latest response by Granny has no video or  evidence of a sniper shot deliberately aimed at the child . She also made a false statement saying the IDF is trained to believe that Palestinians are animals. Let her provide the training manual. Of course it does not exist and in fact IDF soldiers have placed themselves in the line of fire and died protecting Palestinian civilians so such a comment designed to smear and incite anger is odious.

In fact the IDF is constantly re-retaining to find non-lethal ways to prevent harm to Palestinians they are trying to control, i.e.,

1-   skunk spray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP4BQ5fNZDc;
2-   sha’aga: https://www.weeklyblitz.net/world/idf-introduces-new-non-lethal-crowd-control-device/
3-   snake-head approach: https://www.funker530.com/israeli-special-forces-take-a-direct-approach-to-riot-control/
4-   tear gas and blue liquid stain: https://www.janes.com/article/89747/idf-rapidly-developing-non-lethal-systems-for-gaza-border

In regards to children being killed or injured Granny won’t discuss that  both Hamas and the PA deliberately use children and civilians as weapons-they place them in harms way during demonstrations to serve two purposes:

1-provide a cover for terrorists shooting or throwing explosives or other lethal weapons;
2-getting children hurt and killed to then place them in news stories and even when the children are not injured, staging false displays of injured children or deaths for videos sent to for news.

Here is what I refer to and Granny will not acknowledge:

a-http://www.peacewithrealism.org/headline/admit.htm
b-https://www.nationalgunforum.com/general-gun-discussion/83554-palestinians-let-children-use-selfmade-guns.html
c-https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/266353/palestinians-exploiting-children-fight-israel-noah-beck

Let us be clear, exploiting the death of Palestinian children to smear the entire IDF with false allegations does not establish credible dialogue. The IDF does not act in a vacuum where it just suddenly and deliberately  decides to shoot innocent Palestinians for no reason. in fact at the current time Palestinian civilians are being used as human shields for Hamas operatives to attach explosive devices to the Gaza border fence, lob explosive devices at Israeli border guards, destroy and breach the fence.

In fact the outbreaks in and on the West Bank and Gaza do not happen in isolation from one another.  In fact both Hamas and the PA  use kites that they send in to Israel with explosives. They also burn en masse tires, and cause fires to  create toxic fumes and smoke to serve as ba cover to attack the Israeli border and expose soldiers to those toxic fumes.  As we speak exploding kites and inciting civilian residents of the Gaza Strip, especially women and children, are organized by Hamas and the PA to participate in a weekly ritual of charging toward the Israel-Gaza border fence coupled with weekly mass demonstrations on very narrow streets on the West Bank as part of an on-going war that has gone on for 47 years where  a conventional military is obliged to engage in crowd control because the other side  has terrorist cells each with their own leader (literally thousands of them each operating on their own accord based on a loose network of connection) using civilians as weapons.

Civilians on both sides are exposed to danger and are drying. Civilians and especially children in Palestinian communities deliberately allow themselves to be used as weapons and shields  because they are being trained in school based on Hamas and PA curriculum to believe pre 1967 Israel, the West, Bank and Gaza as well as Jordan belong in a Palestinian sharia law state and there is no other solution. To this date there is NO Palestinian leader or for that matter Arab nation leader who will say openly their people or country recognizes the right of Israel to be a Jewish state free of terror attacks. Not one. Moderate Palestinians who do recognize Israel as a Jewish state with the right to exist s that  must come to Canada or Europe or the US or they would get killed. Moderate Palestinians who want peace with Israel are considered even more despicable by Hamas and the PA than the IDF or Israelis.

Is the IDF perfect of course not. Yes certainly it has a moral obligation to avoid unnecessary suffering and death of any civilian and it should be criticized and challenged if it fails to do so and if that is what happened in this or any other case, i.e., it can be shown it deliberately harmed a civilian it is not to be condoned and someone must be held culpable. Criticism of the IDF if properly proven is warranted and is necessary-but a it must be properly documented and proven because too many false reports have been passed to the media.

To accuse any soldier of deliberately killing or wanting to kill a civilian without evidence is odious.

For anyone who has witnessed the violence this notion that soldiers deliberately kill civilians is just not common. It can happen but its very uncommon. The reason? When you are there in the midst of the spitting, the rocks and molotov cocktails flying, the nail bombs, the hand grenades, the tear gas and water spray you realize its chaos and pandemonium and there is no one standing around innocently getting shot...what there is..is premeditated, planned organized public events with civilian crowds  jammed in very narrow streets who quickly turn violent as strategically placed handlers from the PA or Hamas trigger them to riot all done to create videos to send to the news media. Then you have soldiers armed with weapons trying to control charging crowds.

The latest assault rifle of the IDF as a short barrel meaning up close it is highly accurate but the velocity of the bullet even if coated with a sponge head or plastic or just an ordinary bullet can cause death and fragmentation of the bullet in tissue. Its not deliberate. Its a matter of soldiers often firing in the air in chaos and bullets hitting people in the heat of the moment as rifles are raised or the ricochet off of narrow lanes.

If you were on the West Bank you would understand snipers are used to target the terrorists operating in the crowds with weapons or who are inciting and leading children or civilians. I have been there and seen it.The IDF makes mistakes but to expect them to be able in the heat of the moment not to make mistakes is bullshit.

That all said, we need to get Palestinian moderates to the table who can convince their fellow Palestinians like the IRA did its people in Northern Ireland, to put down their weapons and recognize they can not liberate Israel from Jews nor should they try and to stop using their children to fight their battles. Until Hamas and the PA and their script-myth of the liberation of Israel and Jordan is dismissed, they these terror groups will continue the chaos. Peace is the biggest enemy of Hamas and the PA because if it happened they would both have no reason to exist and Palestinian moderates would return home and build a nation without the corruption of Hamas and the PA and which would receive aid from both Jordan and Israel.



Title: Re: Anti Israel Responses
Post by: Granny on July 29, 2019, 08:51:01 am
"Granny has no video or  evidence of a sniper shot deliberately aimed at the child "

That kind of says it all, Rue.
'The IDF does no wrong'

So you enjoy your anti-thread.

I'll just keep posting some truths in my thread, and people can see both perspectives and make up their own minds.

On a personal note, though, I cannot imagine how you could participate positively in any groups attempting to reconcile differences between Israelis and Palestinians ... if you disrespect, disbelieve, dismiss and degrade the Palestinians' experiences like you have about this child.